Were Old Norse people living within an egalitarian society? My Social Media: / arithharger / vikingwidunder society6.com/arithharger / arithharger #vikingage #egalitarian #vikings
why tho? what's wrong with looking to history for inspiration (even if its not always accurate) that can be a creative and empowering process, no? Nietzsche talked about 3 uses of history, the monumental- to push people to do greater thing than they would be able to do without it- was one of them, it makes sence to me.
@@tarot.card.std.diagnosis Romanticization isn't looking to history for inspiration, it's erroneously applying preexisting inspiration to history. Even if the values we have are good ones, and we want to believe people in history had those values, misconstruing the truth is still misconstruing the truth. It does no service to anyone.
@@clayhamric4428 I can see where you're coming from but like renaissance for example or even the period that is called romanticism, that's all based on untruth about antiquity pretty much and I think it did serve plenty of people, you can also think of wardruma for example their music is not historical reconstruction at all, you could call it romanticism, like einar selvik got druk on the mead of inspiration by the viking age but it is just inspiration by a certain romantic idea of the vikings not accurate reconstruction of viking age music, and I still love wardruna. But it is obviously important that there are well researched and accurate sources alongside those who are bit more liberal with their use of history ;)
I’d say it’s not a binary, but a spectrum: the Norse certainly had spaces of greater social equality than a layman might expect (Thing, for example), they were still rigid hierarchical patriarchies in most social areas. They also weren’t the only ones to have areas of limited social/gender equality, even on the same peninsula! (Sami).
Hi Arith. Your video has appeared with Danish subtitles. Nice.. I usually get them with English subtitles and I understand most of it, but it's definitely easier in my native language. Thanks.. You are right, - in our society we have never been equal, neither then nor now😊. Jane from Denmark🇩🇰
I think people are taking "were better than other ancient societies" as being some kind of ideal. I agree with another poster saying it feels like a spectrum. They had some good points, but it still pales compares to modern times for egalitarianism. We're not there yet, but we'll get to equality eventually. Hopefully.
Reading the icelandic sagas, you very quickly get the impression of just how "toxically masculine" (to use a modern term) pre-Christian Scandinavian society was. You were constantly expected to display your capability of violence as a man, and any slight against your honor was expected to be met with violence, or you would be socially ostracized.
As a citizen from an empire with an immense military industrial complex it seems like "Toxic Masculinity " only became a problem when corporate prisons begin devouring our young men. The boys I grew up with and their sons ( and some of those with sons) still have the same values and ethics as their fathers and grandfathers has not changed, the rules of engagement has changed. Viking society valued respect, loyalty, and honesty like all great nations from across time and geography.
Volsung Saga contains a line, 'women cannot be trusted', and yet brynhild and gundrun show themselves to be more honorable and demonstrate greater loyalty than their male family members. Brynhild is a shield maiden, is allowed to fight, own her own hall, and choose her mate. Similarly Gundrun joins the fight against her brothers assailants toward the end. It is Brynhild who communicates two pages of verse about rune magick and is praised for her knowledge. It is Gundrun who carves the runes to warn her brothers. Literacy was encouraged and embraced; it would be a few more centuries before the franks caught up with the vikings in this respect. At a glance and without understanding a lot of what I read therein, one of the overarching themes of the work seems to be 'listen to your wife/mother (or you'll be sorry)', but similarly the lesson 'beware of the wiles of women (they are much smarter than you)' is encapsulated in the figure of Grimhild. At the very least, this Icelandic manuscript shows that the vikings were much more egalitarian than many western civilization complexes at the time, with respect to the sexes and their proscribed roles in society. By the time the courtly Christian Germanic South gets ahold of Volsung Saga and produces The Nibelungenlied, the roles are quite reversed. The women are largely agents of chaos and egocentric vengeance; and Grimhild the witch who caused so much distress with her plotting in Volsung Saga, is turned into the model of feminine comeliness and virtue. It is very interesting to compare the two side by side, and get a sense of the values of the respective cultures which produced them. Both works are exceptionally brutal. That land of ice and snow just hits different.
@@TheLeftwheel I'm 50. My father was born in 1946 and my grandfather was born in 1912. I assure you that their generations had no idea that the war on drugs and three strikes was going to ensnare and enslave Americans for nonviolent offenses.
What you say about dumbing down ideologies is absolutely true. Most people today, what with the left/right binary being so prelevant in political discussions, wouldn't be able to tell communism from a hole in the ground if their life depended on it. And the fact that some people like to equate certain historical cultures to their favourite system, wherever it stands politically, is so utterly dump in a reductionist sort of way that it hurts just to think about it. Sure, you can say there are communist, or fascist, or capitalist, or whatever streaks in certain cultures, and you can argue that Jesus held some positions that line up well with certain modern schools of political thought, but that's it. You have to be honest in your comparison and compare what fits as well as what doesn't fit; if you do it at all, because overall it's pretty useless.
I absolutely love The Northman as a portrayal of Viking culture. Portrayed how women were secondary but allowed to lead, (they threw in the one Viking woman warrior) and also portrayed slavery and sexual exploitation. I really don't have high hopes that any society treated women equally unless they are matriarchal, which are few and far between.
Arith, penso que basta uma lida no Righstula para que se compreenda o quão estratificada era a sociedade nórdica. Concorda?
5 месяцев назад+8
Ora aí está, exactamente e concordo plenamente :D muito bem observado! Essa fonte realmente demonstra bem a discrepância entre as classes sociais e a percepção da sociedade Nórdica em relação a essas mesmas classes, até se nota bem o desiquilíbrio económico.
This kind of willful misunderstanding of Norse people reminds me a good deal of the way post-pagan historians tried to categorize Odin and such as being decedents of men (and therefore, Adam), because they needed to legitimize the claims of current Christian kings to the rulership of Scandinavia. You couldn't just be a king with no historicity to your claims--that would make you sound like a usurper! So they (it was Snorri, we know who I mean, I can say his name) needed Odin to be a different guy, lol.
A 7 pointed star can be created from 3 triangles. The heptagram is known among neopagans as the Elven Star or Fairy Star. It is treated as a sacred symbol in various modern pagan and witchcraft traditions. Blue Star Wicca also uses the symbol, where it is referred to as a septegram. The second heptagram is a symbol of magical power in some pagan spiritualities. Draw a circle around the triangle, at the top of the triangle, draw a line down, cutting the triangle and circle in half, slide the bottom right of the triangle to the center point on the circle, causing the other two points on the triangle to shift, mark the two new points on the circle, repeat this step with the bottom left of the triangle, remove the triangle, get rid of the center line, now you have 7 equal point around the circle to make your 7 pointed star.
Tell them Weyland showed you that, lord of the elves, he lives under the star Tania, elf princess Twinkle Twinkle little star, tell me who you are Tania is the left paw of Ursa Major, in Sumerian, 'ur' means "Dog", 'sa' means "Red" Ur-Sag means Warrior, 'sag' means "Head", a warrior is the Head Dog, Top Dog Ur-gula means both Lion and Great Dog Ur-bar-ra means Wolf, 'bar' means "Son", Ra is god of the Sun Ur-bar-ra ur-sag Ur-sa minor, Wolf Warrior Wepwawet son of Set, God of Chaos
I've been listening to "Asatru For Beginners" by Erin Lale on audiobook. Don't get me wrong; i lean left and pretty good at that, but even i knew her claims Iron Age Scandinavians (sigh.... the Vikings....) that women were equal and society as a whole qas tolerant to transgenderism/gender fluidiity were not accurate.
@ Thank you and your very welcome. Keep up all the good works and open honest conversation and the enlightenment and the love will always echo back... Great good blessings for you and yours. Thanks again. B. R. A. T. ONE 🫶
Romanticization has been one of the most detrimental things to happen to the study of history.
why tho? what's wrong with looking to history for inspiration (even if its not always accurate) that can be a creative and empowering process, no? Nietzsche talked about 3 uses of history, the monumental- to push people to do greater thing than they would be able to do without it- was one of them, it makes sence to me.
@@tarot.card.std.diagnosis Romanticization isn't looking to history for inspiration, it's erroneously applying preexisting inspiration to history. Even if the values we have are good ones, and we want to believe people in history had those values, misconstruing the truth is still misconstruing the truth. It does no service to anyone.
@@clayhamric4428 I can see where you're coming from but like renaissance for example or even the period that is called romanticism, that's all based on untruth about antiquity pretty much and I think it did serve plenty of people, you can also think of wardruma for example their music is not historical reconstruction at all, you could call it romanticism, like einar selvik got druk on the mead of inspiration by the viking age but it is just inspiration by a certain romantic idea of the vikings not accurate reconstruction of viking age music, and I still love wardruna. But it is obviously important that there are well researched and accurate sources alongside those who are bit more liberal with their use of history ;)
Good morning Mr Arith Härger. Love the New appearance is very stylish. Great video as it is your appanage!
I’d say it’s not a binary, but a spectrum: the Norse certainly had spaces of greater social equality than a layman might expect (Thing, for example), they were still rigid hierarchical patriarchies in most social areas. They also weren’t the only ones to have areas of limited social/gender equality, even on the same peninsula! (Sami).
i think the most awkward things you've focused on here is how hard it can be for people to adjust their world views.
"That horse f@ck#r." I just adore you, Arith!! Thanks for another great video, my friend.
Hi Arith. Your video has appeared with Danish subtitles. Nice.. I usually get them with English subtitles and I understand most of it, but it's definitely easier in my native language. Thanks.. You are right, - in our society we have never been equal, neither then nor now😊. Jane from Denmark🇩🇰
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Bonjour, que ce soit une bonne journée, un bon début d’année. Merci d’être toujours là ! Bisous
Bonjour! Merci. Bonne année à vous et plein de bénédictions pour vous !
So the Norce Ancestors lived in a society just like we do today minus modern amenities.
Hi arith happy new year to you my friend ❤ sending you love health and happiness
Blessed be 🖤
Happy new year! Thank you! All the best to you, many blessings!
I think people are taking "were better than other ancient societies" as being some kind of ideal. I agree with another poster saying it feels like a spectrum. They had some good points, but it still pales compares to modern times for egalitarianism. We're not there yet, but we'll get to equality eventually. Hopefully.
Glad to see it's Great and always proactive. Good luck.
"Old Norse societies were egalitarian"
Heimdall: "Hold my horn..."
❤Just great thanks Arith.Always the best! Have a great day! ❤
Hello from Brazil 🇧🇷 I'm going to use some of your explanations as experience to create a book, that I'm writing about fantasy. Thank you
Best of luck friend! Abraço!
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Very interesting and informative! 🙂🤔❤ love the insight and understanding.
Thank you friend. All the best to you!
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Egalitarianism between the free Karls? Sure.
Society as a whole, absolutely not.
Thankyou Arith!
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What to say, always fantastic! 🤗
hehe thank you :D
Very interesting post, thank you Arith!
🎉Great content, very interesting indeed.
Reading the icelandic sagas, you very quickly get the impression of just how "toxically masculine" (to use a modern term) pre-Christian Scandinavian society was. You were constantly expected to display your capability of violence as a man, and any slight against your honor was expected to be met with violence, or you would be socially ostracized.
As a citizen from an empire with an immense military industrial complex it seems like "Toxic Masculinity " only became a problem when corporate prisons begin devouring our young men. The boys I grew up with and their sons ( and some of those with sons) still have the same values and ethics as their fathers and grandfathers has not changed, the rules of engagement has changed. Viking society valued respect, loyalty, and honesty like all great nations from across time and geography.
Sounds like those dudes back then were based.
Volsung Saga contains a line, 'women cannot be trusted', and yet brynhild and gundrun show themselves to be more honorable and demonstrate greater loyalty than their male family members. Brynhild is a shield maiden, is allowed to fight, own her own hall, and choose her mate. Similarly Gundrun joins the fight against her brothers assailants toward the end. It is Brynhild who communicates two pages of verse about rune magick and is praised for her knowledge. It is Gundrun who carves the runes to warn her brothers. Literacy was encouraged and embraced; it would be a few more centuries before the franks caught up with the vikings in this respect.
At a glance and without understanding a lot of what I read therein, one of the overarching themes of the work seems to be 'listen to your wife/mother (or you'll be sorry)', but similarly the lesson 'beware of the wiles of women (they are much smarter than you)' is encapsulated in the figure of Grimhild.
At the very least, this Icelandic manuscript shows that the vikings were much more egalitarian than many western civilization complexes at the time, with respect to the sexes and their proscribed roles in society.
By the time the courtly Christian Germanic South gets ahold of Volsung Saga and produces The Nibelungenlied, the roles are quite reversed. The women are largely agents of chaos and egocentric vengeance; and Grimhild the witch who caused so much distress with her plotting in Volsung Saga, is turned into the model of feminine comeliness and virtue. It is very interesting to compare the two side by side, and get a sense of the values of the respective cultures which produced them.
Both works are exceptionally brutal. That land of ice and snow just hits different.
@@FreedomJane-bx4um Jails and wars were also devouring their fathers and grandfathers, I promise.
@@TheLeftwheel I'm 50. My father was born in 1946 and my grandfather was born in 1912. I assure you that their generations had no idea that the war on drugs and three strikes was going to ensnare and enslave Americans for nonviolent offenses.
Thank you Arith...as always sharing your knowledge and truth! Much appreciated.
My pleasure. Thank you for being in there, as always!
This was great, thank you! 🙏 Definitely gonna be sharing this with people.
I was felt that .. tracing my
lineage from hindu to Vikings..
egalitarian....it feels
What you say about dumbing down ideologies is absolutely true. Most people today, what with the left/right binary being so prelevant in political discussions, wouldn't be able to tell communism from a hole in the ground if their life depended on it. And the fact that some people like to equate certain historical cultures to their favourite system, wherever it stands politically, is so utterly dump in a reductionist sort of way that it hurts just to think about it. Sure, you can say there are communist, or fascist, or capitalist, or whatever streaks in certain cultures, and you can argue that Jesus held some positions that line up well with certain modern schools of political thought, but that's it. You have to be honest in your comparison and compare what fits as well as what doesn't fit; if you do it at all, because overall it's pretty useless.
I absolutely love The Northman as a portrayal of Viking culture. Portrayed how women were secondary but allowed to lead, (they threw in the one Viking woman warrior) and also portrayed slavery and sexual exploitation. I really don't have high hopes that any society treated women equally unless they are matriarchal, which are few and far between.
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Arith, penso que basta uma lida no Righstula para que se compreenda o quão estratificada era a sociedade nórdica. Concorda?
Ora aí está, exactamente e concordo plenamente :D muito bem observado! Essa fonte realmente demonstra bem a discrepância entre as classes sociais e a percepção da sociedade Nórdica em relação a essas mesmas classes, até se nota bem o desiquilíbrio económico.
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Love your stuff kick on love it 👍 ❤
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This kind of willful misunderstanding of Norse people reminds me a good deal of the way post-pagan historians tried to categorize Odin and such as being decedents of men (and therefore, Adam), because they needed to legitimize the claims of current Christian kings to the rulership of Scandinavia. You couldn't just be a king with no historicity to your claims--that would make you sound like a usurper! So they (it was Snorri, we know who I mean, I can say his name) needed Odin to be a different guy, lol.
Interesting!
This channel Glows too hard.
Perfeito amor 🔥🔥💜💜💜🤘
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A 7 pointed star can be created from 3 triangles.
The heptagram is known among neopagans as the Elven Star or Fairy Star. It is treated as a sacred symbol in various modern pagan and witchcraft traditions. Blue Star Wicca also uses the symbol, where it is referred to as a septegram. The second heptagram is a symbol of magical power in some pagan spiritualities.
Draw a circle around the triangle, at the top of the triangle, draw a line down, cutting the triangle and circle in half, slide the bottom right of the triangle to the center point on the circle, causing the other two points on the triangle to shift, mark the two new points on the circle, repeat this step with the bottom left of the triangle, remove the triangle, get rid of the center line, now you have 7 equal point around the circle to make your 7 pointed star.
Tell them Weyland showed you that, lord of the elves, he lives under the star Tania, elf princess
Twinkle Twinkle little star, tell me who you are
Tania is the left paw of Ursa Major, in Sumerian, 'ur' means "Dog", 'sa' means "Red"
Ur-Sag means Warrior, 'sag' means "Head", a warrior is the Head Dog, Top Dog
Ur-gula means both Lion and Great Dog
Ur-bar-ra means Wolf, 'bar' means "Son", Ra is god of the Sun
Ur-bar-ra ur-sag Ur-sa minor, Wolf Warrior Wepwawet son of Set, God of Chaos
Weylyn (Weyland) "Son of the Wolf" the shapeshifting name
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I've been listening to "Asatru For Beginners" by Erin Lale on audiobook. Don't get me wrong; i lean left and pretty good at that, but even i knew her claims Iron Age Scandinavians (sigh.... the Vikings....) that women were equal and society as a whole qas tolerant to transgenderism/gender fluidiity were not accurate.
00:01:00 same is true for fascism, everything remotely authoritarian is somehow fascism nowadays, so tiresome
Jesus was a communist 😂😂😂
I don't know why but I find it so funny 🤣
Nah, they were alpha 😂
Thank you
May your journey only Be better Blessed...
B. R. A. T. 😇
ONE
🫶
Thank you friend. Many blessings in your path. Be well!
@ Thank you and your very welcome.
Keep up all the good works and open honest conversation and the enlightenment and the love will always echo back...
Great good blessings for you and yours.
Thanks again.
B. R. A. T.
ONE
🫶