Are Children Naturally Animists?
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2023
- A case of study on children, if they are naturally born animists or if animism is a mode of life, and perception, that is taught and learned through experiences and examples.
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#animism #psychology #anthropology
It’s also about leaving children ‘intact’ so they won’t lose their sensibility for life in all it’s facets. We taught our sons to appreciate all you can find in nature, our backyard, the woods, but also the different ‘feels’ of different (sometimes prehistoric) places. Especially our youngest son (5 years old now) senses a lot. As a three year old he hushed me to be silent in a 350 year old windmill. ‘The miller needs to concentrate papa’. No one was in that corner, but the nook he pointed his little finger at, used to be spot where the millers kept their administration and annals... We never spoke about ghosts with him on that age, but my hairs stood up at that moment. He even sat down for a while before he told me we could go on. We were the only visitors that moment. Some things are nurtured and cultured, but this sensitivity comes natural. We cherish and value it.
Woah
Absolutely agree. I’ve always been sensitive, and felt things. When I noticed my children sensing similar things I nurtured that in them.
I often find myself apologizing to inanimate objects for acting unfairly in a fit of impatience. I like to think that they are listening in some way or another
I curse gravity on a routine basis when something goes wrong in my shop and I drop and break something, injure myself or a small part falls and rolls to a hard to get and improbable location.
How are you all?
relatively speaking, I'm doing quite well. thank you for asking!
grand, ta
Best I’ve ever been 😁
bright
Thor's strength is with me today at work so I'm good friend hope Odin's wisdom finds you all
what you said at about 21min - That's the one.
I think it stands to reason that as soon as you learn to empathise with other humans and identify them as being somewhat like yourself attributing the same sensation to animals is obvious. As is attributing it to trees and inanimate objects. My mother would encourage me to berated doors if they caught my fingers. If doors can be punished then so can the entire universe. It can also be rewarded and talked to.
Haha I learned the same thing. "Ow! You pinched me! Bad door."
It teaches kids to treat objects nicely, respect their surroundings, and not to cry when hurt.
"It's okay, door. I forgive you."
Good morning Arith! ❤
What a great premise and opinion.Good work as always Mr. H
Not sure why but this made me think of the children's book "The Giving Tree".
Good morning everybody sending you all love ❤️. And thank you for the video brother arith
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interesting 🤔 Reflecting on my childhood I would apply this perspective to everything but as I grew and developed it narrowed down to objects that I have a personal connection to. I was raised surrounded by family stories, History, animals and machines, now, as an adult I feel connected to all of my motorbikes and cars. They all have their own personalities each vehicle having its own name which I learn through using the vehicle eg my ZL600 eliminator was named Mindy, this was because that motorbike was happy to be a "good girl" when just riding around but if I was excitable the line from the film "KickAss" always appeared in my head "So you wonna play" that's when she becomes very fun but dangerous to ride BUT if an error occurs (oil on the road at the apex of a corner) crud fuel blocking the carb jets or battery dying mid journey because it needs replacing and cant keep charge whilst my Mrs is pillion Mindy gets us home and safe.
I can feel when there is something wrong or going wrong with all my vehicles. When using the vehicle I feel like I have become part of the vehicle and it becomes an extension of myself. I also get the impression that some vehicles don't like each other or suffer from jealously. eg 1 motorbike (Hel-Spawn) I have, always plays up and doesn't work properly when my Mrs is helping me around it and vice versa she also does not like the bike either anymore. it's Backfired on her, refused to bump-start, carb issues etc but when my cousin helps its as good as gold with no issues. No idea why maybe "the machine spirit" and my Mrs just..... don't get along.
Its been commented that I talk to machines like I'm talking to a Horse or Dog but then again when I was in the army I used to talk to my rifle the same way too 🤷♂ No idea why I do it but it feels natural to me.
I would say that children, even from a very young age, have a since of imagination and wonder. As they grow and develop, their perceptions of their world and surroundings change dramatically. This is no more evident and especially true in this post modern world, where human beings are inundated with virtual reality and electronic stimulus on a daily basis. Children are like sponges, drinking in all stimulus that they are subjected to. Children today, are often times given an unsatisfactory imitation of life, or a simulacrum. Society has slowly evolved out of the imaginative state of being. Children have perhaps lost their creativity, and inventiveness, and now rely on artificial means to understand their world.
Every Wednesday, I have coffee and a cigar while listening to your videos then I go for a hike
Patient: I saw a chair in my dream.
Sigmund Freud: that's because your sexual desire is unfulfilled.
Thank you Arith for sharing your knowledge, always looking forward to your videos and always learning. Take care.
I have always, from the beginning, liked your videos immediately. It's a habit of mine.
Hey mr. Handsome Witch, thanks for all the hard work! Everything I see a person with nordic runes tattooed I sent them your videos 🎉
I grew up in rural poverty but the land was my mother , father and also something frightening . There was a stand of aspen.trees near my home that I was very drawn to . I felt they were speaking but I couldn't quite grasp their message . It would drive me crazy . I still remember that.little group of trees and I still , at age 54 , wonder what they were saying .
Thank you for this excellent differentiation and clarification of the subject! This is indeed very helpful!
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So, ive actually thought about this alot - and never came to anything definite. Reason being my own childhood where i always wished to be alone, or rather - in nature and in solitude. I would talk to anything i saw , or i would choose a tree that i liked and talk to that tree - - - for years. My experience always was that i was the weirdo , by other people and children. That's not changed for sure; but what did happen from that early age is that i would be befriended by people that i would later learn were elders. And though i had no one to study with in my situation of growing up - i did have these people choose me to help or assist them , a great honour in my feeling of it. When i studied psychology i found a similar report done in germany of people that others claimed had poltergeists around them - the same sort of other stuff i experience like effecting the electricity in a room - making an entire room of computers shut down for example. They found that these people had abilities or senses stronger than others because of high electrical activity in the brain (pineal gland) and that when other's hit puberty that would lessen by about say 70 percent - but in the other sensitives would actually stay the same or increase. Some food for thought because i've had the brain electricity measured and there has been differences noted; once i stop blowing the electrodes ! I don't think that one is the other such as Born animist has Extra brain electric - but would open a person up to those extra perceptions as well as the need to isolate from overwhelming . That sort of 'start' lends to the watcher type of person who will then learn about cause and effect; and feel it more so than others.
Thanks! This was very interesting Arith!
Young children being connected to animism seems to me related to how they’re more open to the memories of past lives and artistic expression also.
kids say the darndest things
I think this might be my favorite RUclips channel, you’re so charismatic!!
I and my life are always enriched by you, good sir!! Keep them pearls of wisdom coming!
yes, why are there not more 'likes' -- i usually share it to FB and say 'oi, learn something' or 'share the shit out of this' - !!! and now to watch
Fascinating topic, another banger. Cheers!
i was intensely animist as a child and still retain some of it. stuffed animals and knick knacks were impossible for me to get rid of when i was younger because i considered their feelings.
Japan is actually the most famous for some parts of animism. Check out their Yokai Parade of A hundred Spirits. An umbrella spirit, geta spirit (traditional wooden shoes in Japan) a sword spirit....all mistreated and now they are angry. Everything has a soul, in Japanese folklore. So take care of them like your mother cared for you.
To be fair, that's just reality lol. Take care of your stuff and it tends to last longer and work better.
I mean jpan isinteresting as its prtty secular yet holds up that traditions up toa big degree. And whenever you like i culturally as fun enriching festivals or believe in it, its a connection to that parts.
Also sucessful seculrism is good.
Iknw japan hasproblem, just keeping up traditions to connect with that partsin a heealthy way that exist in allcultures.Are good.and valid.
I thinkperonalizing thingsist rare at all, guess why ships and precious things often get nicknames, and plushies,and , we doit.why not embrace it .
I feel that its both. Animism is an experience felt (Im not sure someone can teach another
how to do that), as well as a learned thing. The learned part is another aspect of it.
And so, a child may experience the personage of something in nature, but
they may not understand why that is, or what it is. But, they are still experiencing an aspect of animism.
I would think such children with this ability (and maybe other abilities as well) would have been selected
by our ancestors to be taught shamanism.
Enjoyed this video, and others. Thank you for creating them. ✨
I think, people might mistake the personification in the grammar to animism in the religious and folk-custom practices. The former is about linguistics, the latter is about folklore and theology.
Blessings,❤.
You have done so much to help me learn and to reshape my perceptions of the world, my spirituality and myself. Thank you for another great video, Arith 🖤
As a child, I always had a deep feeling that my toys, humanoid or otherwise, had feelings all their own.
I never knew how to explain it, and I still dont really. But I always felt they had lives outside of myself playing with them (not in a toy story kind of way, but a more spiritual way).
I wouldn't call it anamistic or anything that deep. But i do recall it being a particularly strong feeling.
Good appreciation about what we are and what we go with time being! Thank you Mr. Arith
Separating fact from fiction in a wise, intelligent way. Thank you for sharing your gifts of insight dear friend
After the earthquake in Morocco, with the epicenter just about 5 km from Sidi Chamharouch, I now believe Chamharouch is an ancient guardian of the mountain. I have a new appreciation for the significance of animism. And I don't think you necessarily have to have been in direct physical contact with a spirits genius loci to recognize it exists.
Eu amei as explicações, gratidão pelo conhecimento 💜💜🤘🤘🤘🔥
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Thank you Arith for ALL your Vids. I am 72 and learning more from you than I thought was possible.
Olá! Obrigado por discutir esse assunto. Esse tópico pode ser pensado como a diferença entre antropomorfismo e animismo (cf Stutley). Estou estudando o animismo como uma teoria para ajudar na leitura das literaturas indígenas no Brasil. A categoria de antropomorfismo é restrita a uma figura de linguagem que não corresponde às ontologias indígenas.
Multiple cultures One nature juxtaposed with One culture Multiple natures...How does one 'anthropomorphize' that which they are a portion of...Good day.
I totally believe children are animistic, from my own experiences as a child and my own children
Also comments, and especially emojis ❤😊 it trips the alalgorithm to make it more noticed😊❤
I only can talk for myself, but sure I was born without boundaries, everything was kind of magic, and I sure could interact with everything and everybody. I'm still animist, and yes it's my natural, native way of experiencing the world 🫂🌍☝️✨
i´ve always thought that way..
it´s also confirmed by our folklore,
the people who speak about animist
concepts are not children,
but they are "regular folk",
so it was a wider cultural thing
(than just witches or shamans).
personally i still regard myself
as animist, just not spiritualist..
you can believe in life without
spirits.. life can begin, happen
and end without any notion of
invisible spirits.
also you can be a naturist
without being animist.. many
children who grow up in nature
are naturists (i just read a
folklore caption where a child
offered a snake some food,
treating it as equal / friend).
not sure if i ever was a
spiritualist, probably not..
even souls, something there does
not work for me.. i do believe
in the complexity of human life,
and all life..
i´ve been interacting
with ants a lot and they are not
as simple as they look, just
different.. so the mystery
is still there for me, as it ever
was, just not spirit related
(definately not spirit-god-universe,
one equals dumb).
I don't know if I'm animist or not, but I can clearly sense the difference, for example, between completely new house and old house. There is something there that gives an old house so called soul. New built house is completely blank like a paper.
I really need this
I talk to the scenery. I talk to the birds, the bees, the flowers, the trees, the breeze, the stones, the worms, the bugs, the sun, the moon, the stars, my car, the deer, the turkeys, the appliances that refuse to function. I'm self-diagnosing that I'm in my second childhood.
Thank you for your post. I think some children are born animists and need to be taught how to become great anamist
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Fasignatiting topic! Pretty much concur with your assessment of whether or not children are innately animist, as, in my own observation/recollection, it certainly seems that way. But the point you raise is valid. Children are at a stage of development in which it's necessary to be highly imaginative; to play and to pretend. To practice. Because they're still learning! Still developing their abilities to differentiate between the many tricky factions of life. Animism, however, seems to be a more developed, nuanced, mature mode of awareness. In-born predispositions and real childhood encounters surely DO occur and are possible. But historically it is the elder, teacher, or shaman figure that initiates this level of Connection.
I totally agree! When I first heard conversations about animism, my immediate thought was that everything I believed as a child was correct. Then society makes you feel childish for these beliefs.
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Hearing the voice is potential. (By definition child-play) Understanding the words & meanings, interpretations & applications are the building blocks of the animist world view.
Thank you 🙏
Great video as always Arith, but I'm never letting you around my teddy bears 😂😂😂❤
I agree with your idea that children are not born animists. I am from a Northern Plains culture (Lakota in the U.S.) we did not have contact with Eurocentric culture and religion until the late 1870s when my ancestors moved onto the reservation. They were forced to become Christian but our lands were extensive and there are still only around 500,000 people living in the entire state. They always kept traditional ceremonies and also went to church until 1978 when it became legal do hold ceremonies again. So this isn't that far in the past for me, being a part of a recent hunter gatherer society who had animism as central to our spiritual beliefs. Most Northern Plains cultures and most all tribes in the U.S. had clans and societies who all had roles to play in who were designated leaders, medicine people who did healing and then the warrior societies, etc. Often families intermarried (with other bands) to people with their same status. If they were healers then they married someone from a healing family. This is so people didn't have to continuously re-teach new people because they were already familiar with their ways. Some say this interbreeding was to strengthen the abilities but it was just for the complex ties in our tribes and bands so that there was a web of relatives whose purpose was to benefit the collective band or tribe and not for an individual or one family to have more power than others. This is pretty much the opposite of Christian religion and feudalism. Europeans also once had this type of structure in their pagan times before the Romans and then Christianity. Children are taught by adults of our relationships with all living beings and how everything is our relative because we are interdependent and apart of the cycle of life and survival. This is often misunderstood as a trope of Native people being "children of Nature" and because we have a history of animism that they misinterpret our lives pre-contact and colonization as if we mystically moved through nature untouched. There is always a tourist in Yellowstone or somewhere who wants a selfie with a buffalo and gets injured. This is different from being a part of the environment and having respect for places such as the Black Hills. Those hills were later discovered to have gold inside so seeing them as specia and there are other tribes who also considered them sacred, maybe the ley lines or jus being a hilly area in the middle of the Plains were what gave them a special spiritual respect. These traditions are taught and reinforced from the time children are past infancy. It looks like its an innate ability but children who were adopted out don't return with this acceptance of animism. Christianity teaches that man has dominion over the land and that's hard for religious people and even atheists to grasp and understand the concept of animism.
Brilliant
What a beautiful topic to explore thank you Arith. I was wondering , could pareidolia ( the human ability to see shapes or make pictures out of randomness such as faces in clouds) be a form of animism?
Children are the most human beings and with that animism, creativity and imagination is all included, all grown up should strive to keep their inner child alive to make the world a better place.
Wow good question!
I think it would be interesting to see how theories of AI could play into this. A computer or the program it runs is inanimate, yet there is the tendency to come up with criteria it must meet to be able to attribute self awareness or personhood to it.
I haven't watched any of your videos in a year or two. You been ill lately? You have aged a lot since I saw you last. I hope all is well with you brother and may the blessings of good health be with you.
Thank you for your post. I respectfully disagree to a point. I think some children are naturally born good anamists just like some children are born to be good members of other community they were born into and only need a good teacher to become a great member indeed a champion of the community they were raised in.
Not sure I quite agree... some rocks being alive and others not being alive is more about the rock's aliveness aligning with your ability to detect. A spec of sand may not be alive in your perception as a human, but it may very well be a protective spirit for a small germinating seed - for example. A log may not be detectably alive when you collect it from the forest, but very much contains a distinct spirit when you burn it. You're almost, though I'm not sure quite, saying many instances of children projecting personhood onto teddy bears is often those children being mistaken... but children's toys, through the process of their design, creation, and gifting, and then through play, are imbued with spirit... I don't see why we would dismiss children being empathetically tethered to highly ritualized objects as misdetection, wouldn't we be doing exactly what the anthropologists from the 1700s were doing to native peoples?
It is like being musical.. lots of children dont develope this magical power ...
Thank you.
What is interesting is that personhood in our day is a legal status also granted to corporations. Some are even venerated as you discribe when explaining animism.
And AI robots
Yes. I believe so.
Dear Arith! Could you please do a video about pantheism? I think it would be interesting to compare this view to the animistic or pagan perception of the world
Well that was bloody interesting and thought-provoking. Thank you Arith again. My instinctive answer was Yes, children are natural animists.
But I reflect, working with children, a great number will put their foot on an insect or creature as soon they see it. Not necessarily with violence, just matter of factly squash it. Not the majority thankfully but a sizeable minority will do this. They will whack flowers to pieces and often not the children who have chaotic home lives. So no, not all children do have an inbuilt recognition of other living beings.
Re teddy bears - some children, as adults, report their teddies used to talk to them and recall this stopping! My theory is a friendly spirit takes up residence then moves on. just sayin
I would love to know more about stone medicine if you have anything to share
You remind me of Harald Baldr. I picked out that tartan covering your chair for my kindergarten lunchbox 🔥
I read that in certain cultures it is not the behaviour of the children that determines the shamanic path, but physical markers like for example an extra rib bone or an extra finger or something. I would imagine that physical markers would make it easier for them to accept their fate and stick to that path, rather than give it up because of a change in behaviour
I've thought about this a lot since I learned about animism back in like 7th grade.
As a kid who lived in the woods alot I recognized and saw that the trees, the small plants and the animals were a way better "church" for me than the Christian BS shoved upon me.Everything has a spirit.
This reminds me of how robots and other inanimate things are treated as 'alive' and having souls in Japanese culture.
It certainly becomes noticeable in comparing west vs east. In the west robots are to be kept under control lest they take over. In Japan robots are friends who want to work _with_ humans.
Children learn whichever view they're exposed to pretty early on.
Please may you do a video on lilith x 🙏
I believe all children are born with something, I think they have a understanding of magic in only the way kids can. Plus the easy way that their imagination works. I'm not saying this is animistic though. But they are born with a kind of innocent knowledge of things, like when children pick different things put them together even mash them up as we use a mortar and pestal (sorry I think I spelled that wrong) and say they are making a magic potion. They do pretend magic. I think having imagination helps later to learn to visualize things when doing something like when you are putting your intentions into a herb mixture to be used for workings. I was very lucky as a kid that my great great aunt was a Ozark Mountain witch. She is who started teaching me as a kid. Not like some kind of strict teachings. I spent a good part of every summer with her, she lived in the middle of no where, with woods all around. We used to go into the woods together or I would spend a good part of my time alone in them, or climb up into my favorite tree and just get comfortable and read. When we went into the woods she taught me how to just open up to the land and feel it's life, for some reason it's always been easy for me especially in the woods to just feel and absorb the life around me, one day as I got older I realized it was all a living thing that I was feeling the life of all around me, I understand that was not animistic yet but it taught me to respect everything. It also started simple like she would have me throw a rock into the pond and how the effect of that was the ripples in the water, how when a neighbor took their dirt bike of the paths that every one used. (Most everyones land had paths through the woods that connected up because going through the woods was faster and shorter to get to the neighbors then following the road all around) but if they took their dirt bike of the path and into the woods the bike would rip up the ground, they would break the small baby trees that then all that would die, again cause and effect. She would always have me thank the wild onions and garlic and the other wild plants that we would gather for dinner and never take the roots, unless it was the root we were eating and still never get greedy and take it all, only what was needed and we never gathered in the same places every time, we wouldn't go back to a spot until it grew back what little we took, but always thanking the plants. When I was little every once in a while I would catch her under her breath saying something about my favorite tree like he likes you, he misses you when your not here. It wasn't until I was about 14 what she meant. One day all of a sudden I felt it great me, I would talk to him and I didn't hear words back, I felt them I felt his feelings, I know some will think I was just being childish and stupid but I could all of a sudden just realize that he was more than a tree and slowly things just started growing within me that slowly I started knowing. I can always feel the land and the others, and for the most part are they there to be friends or foe. But it was her teachings that started me on my path, that helped me learn to keep it in my heart and never let anyone crush that from me, my grandma was the same way. I home schooled my daughter until the middle of 7th grade when my x and I broke up. I didn't do it like most people because of some kind of religion, well not like others that often did it because they wanted their kids to have a more christan up bringing and they thought public school took that away and they did it out of strictness, which often caused their kids to leave and not come back. I did it because we lived in the middle of the woods, I not only was teaching reading, writing and arithmetic. But the things I had been taught and let her start to make her connections as she got older. She always had the choice of what her path was. I also made sure to expose her to as many religions and beliefs as I could so when she chose her path she would be informed, she could see the cause and effect and she did start on a certain path but then she slowly changed it and over time she has become animistic. You are so right there is so much more that goes into it and it is something at least especially when young that is taught. Like I said, I don't believe anyone is born animistic, but I do believe we are all born with something, but for most, people and life beat it out of them, or make it go so deep inside them they never find it again. Ok so I have gone on long enough, even though there is much more that I could go on about. Blessings to all 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
completely disagree with the idea that children cannot detect the personhood or aliveness of 'inanimate objects'. as a child I would put my awareness inside of things like plants and rocks and I could feel what always felt like a little person. or a little personality within each. it was always so joyful and fun to do this. I always whenever I felt alone could tap into the aliveness and friendliness of the material world around me.
Ok, people doanimize,if its often more personal things. vehicles being named, well is kinda animism. plushies, thigs. Giving them names, all that.talking to them. Peoplecuddlecomputers ad thats legit,
It was never gone,people dothat still,ust more cultures are more open about it .
Icould bring it that it can be maybe attributed to waifuing basically anything, that hasnever gone away, butthat gets more astract as, i mean people do that , and wont stop,and , int that just a different form,
and im with people are the ones often giving that personality, to things, especially things they work on caring.
Itsjust interesting how not weird it is at all agnowledging that .
animism is a belief that makes you more human than any other type of beliefs, you feel attracted to, embrace and even an item gives you knowledge that mimics a 50,000 BCE ancestor that lived in those times
no politics
no bible
no doctrine
no messiah
no creationism
no apocalypse
no sins
no science
just common sense, you, the Earth, The Sky, The landscapes, the rivers, the trees, the animals, the Life, the reproduction, the survival, the hunt, the food, the blood of your wounds, the man, the woman, the insects, the wind, the cold, the hot, the sun, the moon.
all existing thing, all has purpose, all has meanings. nothing is useless
a plain and simpler Life.
As a mother of 6, I am inclined to believe that they are naturally animist. I raise them in Heathenry.
❤👍🏽
Very young children are not well equipped to deal with abstract ideas and are incredibly vulnerable to indoctrination (thus perpetuation of religious doctrine). So then, young children are not epistemelogically equipped to understand abstract ideas or to evaluate abstract ideas they are told from others or devise themselves.
Young children are also going through their greatest period of discovery. Another factor of human behavior is that humans enjoy sensation, both physically and emotionally. Stories, legends, and anything "beyond the physical world" are especially exciting to children and indeed broadly appeal even to people who would identify as a pure mechanical materialist. This is going to predepose a normal child to seek out and invent animistic stories, say more than stir a great interest in algebra!
As a biologist my main comment along this line of inquiry is that the group "children" has too much variation in context of genetic variability and social environment to make a broad claim. Also, you cant really "BE" an animist or an evolutionary biologist unless you are philosophically grounded in a manner that allows you to understand the claims of either system and make a concious decision as to why you chose to believe, one, the other or both. The latter decision does require some logical discordance, but of course everyone has some emotional or intellectual discordance.
Some questions for thought experiments are: In the past was there a reproductive advantage for children that were predisposed to embrace animism as a child or adult. This is a valid question even if you are a strict materialist that completely rejects the idea of animism. Because, whether the phenomenah are real or not, a predispostion for animism in a social group could be an advantage or disadvantage.
Another imponderable but likely never to be answered question is, if it exists, is a predeliction for embracing animism a feature that has been inherited from an ancestor of H. sapiens. Equally interesting and inscrutable is whether or not it has evolved multiple times. Your not going to ever get an answer though, still fun (for me at least) to question things.
😮🙂
animism rarther than primitive ..i believe is advanced, as is magical practice requires higher intelligence and ability.
Unfortunately, this explanation has become redundant by 2023. Babies are given smart devices and taught to “ask google” for answers instead of annoying their parents “social time”. Children’s perception of life is no longer natural based. They are being denied the chance to think for themselves. The ability to discern fantasies from fiction has been to mushed into a confusing need to grow up to quick. Never knowing childhood.
We just need one super flare from the sun to wipe out all satellites and electrical grids to send us ALL back to living like animists.
But this is just my opinion.
Also, parents want to wrap them in cotton wool to ‘ protect them’ from the dirt and trees and the great outdoors and all nature has to offer,,, just in case the get a boo boo 🤕
Right. Children these days are shuffled around from one organized thing to another, and never get to spend time alone--certainly not outside! They never get bored, they never develop their imaginations...just get plugged in to the matrix right from the start.
Well I was hitting the like button became you never ask us to! lol it gets monotonous hearing that IMO