The other thing that makes class selection daunting is that you're making a choice that will determine nearly everything about your entire game, before you have any idea what the game will be like! People might be more willing to experiment if you reassure them that they can re-spec later, or even make that a default action at some point early on.
A simple approach that just came to my mind from watching this would be to add queries at the start of a game. À la "What *role* do you like to play?" "Do you like to stay at the front and protect your companions?" "Do you like to buff your teammates and let *them* do tremendous damage?" and then the game recommends classes to you based on that. In POE Deadfire, you had primary and secondary roles listed for the classes, which my idea would be a direct evolution of. You wouldn't introduce new classes to everyone, but to those the intended roles of the new classes fit, you would.
I like it! Reminds me of the G.O.A.T in Fallout where you sort of take a test to find what you might like to do! Thanks for the comment! Love hearing things like this!
Worked on a game where we did this: All players had to go through a tutorial with a pseudo class that could every thing heal, ranged dps, melee dps, tank, buff/support and crowd control, and had to do everything to finish. Once finished every class could fill 3 of these roles and it was clearly marked which could do what. Classes didnt really have names at that point, so cannot say if they would have choose different, but test players did seem to like it. Unfortunately development have been at a stand still for many years. Tried something similar in a ttrpg, where players could change 3 character sheets between combat. Realistic no, fun yes. Made it possible for a 3 man party to take on most challenges.
Just found this video looking for answers for my system! You did wonderfully explaining it as I plan on having a TON of classes, so making them all unique but understandable has been a challenge but for now i have all of my classes tucked under an archetype which helps people understand the basics of the class regardless of the flavor. Great video!
My opinion about classes is that you should earn them not quite chose them. What I mean is that I find it weird that you can chose to be something like a blademaster from the begining for exemple. I would like a game that you start with nothing and earn your classes through learning and training the skills related to that class. For exemple I would have to study and train spells and upon mastering enough spells I would get a class like mage or others in the same familly depending what kind of spell I mostly used. With a system like that you might make actions enough times to unlock classes you never knew about, so that would let more types of classes to be available to players.
Good point, familiarity always a big role in our decisions. I was thinking about this recently but more in terms of games overall, I noticed that I want to play some games as soon as possible even if they aren't amazing or innovative while others that are really exceptional are left in the backlog just because I'm not familiar with the gameplay/setting/story etc. I think that as we age we become less open to new experiences unless we intentionally make a choice to try something new. Getting back to the video I think a good solution here is to let the player start off without a class, then introduce classes gradually by showing them NPCs/companions/enemies of that class.
You make a good point! The problem I describe isn’t unique to one element or genre! I for sure need to cover open class systems because I think you’re right that it is an excellent answer to the problem!
I honestly think the PC of POE should have been a unique class with lots of flexibility capable of filling absolutely *any* role. It would have made the story-writing more focused, no need to spread the 'class' dialogue options and such.
This is a really interesting challenge! I think the answer is some variant on the solution a few people mentioned, of making the less familiar classes into subclasses of the better known ones. This does raise the challenge of whether it's better to group them by aesthetic or by playstyle. For example, my 5e battle master fighter has a list of limited-use abilities that's as long as a sorcerer's spell list, plus the added complication of managing reactions. If he were a ranged fighter instead of a melee fighter, then he'd mechanically have little difference from a magic user. So, if you want to offer the player a choice between being a battle master type vs a barbarian type, would you make those subclasses of fighter, or would you make the battle master some kind of bard/wizard subclass?
That's a great question, I used to make games for myself only, but due to the pressing of my little brother and friends, I'm trying to recreate them for others to enjoy, the solution I'm adopting for the ARPG I'm reworking on, is the same that Blizzard used for Starcraft and Warcraft, each class, although with fully customizable character, will feature its own part in the story, and i twisted this a bit to ensure that no matter what class you pick, that story chapter is tailored to let you both learn and enjoy that class, with 2 well-known classes, 1 lesser known but still existing class and 1 OG class, although the fighting mechanic is refusing to agree with the custom RPG System i made for now
1. Seeing you talk about P.O.E. is making me want to play again. 2. In terms of classes, I've always felt that the original idea was to name a "Mastery" of something: Warriors are Masters of Heavy Arms and Weaponry, Rogue is master of light arms and weaponry, etc. yet they also never encouraged the absolute abandonment of other class's toolsets. Mages could still use daggers, but they would be *terrible* at it, and the disparity between what you are good at and bad at only grows with each level. Still if nat 20's fall and a situation presents itself a wizard could crit with a dagger to foil an attempt on their life. There is a design opportunity here: if some base skills from all classes have practical uses in the world setting but the more advanced skills would require mastery and commitment to a class, then at low levels even if the class was pre-decided it does not keep them bereft of using or witnessing the potential applications of other classes tool sets. Or considering the more cinematic on the rails nature of many RPG openings, if there is some large scale conflict going on, individual aspects of battle can be called out and talked about hopefully woven in with a natural flair. Maybe there are demonstrations of certain battles that the character is spared from due to the skills of the class that's protecting them. A situation like this is much more dependent on a vision for the game, so I didn't lead with it but I am reminded of something like dragon age inquisition where, in your path to initially close a rift, you come across a number of Rangers, Warriors, and Mages and get to see them fight, as well as fill out your own party and experience those other classes without actually having them be your main class. In taking that cinematic approach you as a designer have to purposefully think why is this class in the battle and what can it do best? If you run into issues trying to justify the practicality or possible necessity of a class within a given situation, then this may point to ways that the class and the overall interaction of classes can be tuned for that game.
I can understand the problem mentioned in the video. I have trouble understanding some classes myself, sure I can imagine how they would act, what they could do etc but I won't understand fully until I tried them myself. Heck, even some familiar classes such as barbarian, wizard and paladin might work differently in different games. As for solution to promoting different classes, best solution would be to have NPC or enemy use those classes so player could get a hint on how each classes act, do and be. This is usually seen in tactics game in which enemies and NPC use same model or sprite set as players'. Another way to promote those classes (although might be less effective) is to give hint in game. For instance, in Void Pyramid, there are 3 classes player could choose from. While exploring the dungeon, some puzzles/obstacles could be solved/passed by all classes IN THEIR own way. I forgot the details but you can see some signs or messages saying that this object require certain class to interact, other object require other class. This give hint on what other class could do while solving the puzzle/obstacle as chosen class.
When I picked up Pillars of Eternity, Cipher was the class I choose since I had followed the development and knew that that was the psychic class and psychic abilities have always been intriguing to me especially as opposed to standard magic. It was then more of the sci-fi class within the fantasy game and I enjoyed that. The name I think helps get across that idea of something mysterious and different, rogue-like with a twist. I can see how some people wouldn't want a class that goes against standard fantasy archetypes within their fantasy game and how Cipher is really the odd one out as even Chanters are directly tied with the bard archetype. Yet I enjoy playing with what does and doesn't typically happen within a standard rpg and mixing genres so in ways that make sense as opposed to being random inclusions just for the sake of having it. It may just be the case that there is no good answer. Someone that wants to try something new will try the new class and those that want to stick with their old reliables will stick with them, especially within a long game like Pillars of Eternity where you'll want to finish the game with that character. It's good to then have class choices that appeal to both groups to broaden the interested player base and to help flesh out your world since class choices are good ways to show what kinds of people are possible to have in your world.
I feel like there are two approaches to this. You either make every class unique and different from your typical archetypes so there's no familiarity so players choose whatever sounds interesting vs what sounds familiar. Or you go with a classless system that either starts you classes and you work towards classes or it's more about finding your playstyle through mixing gear and skills.
After having played many rpgs through the years with the generic classes, I loved seeing some new (albeit similar to other games) classes with pillars of eternity. Changing the mechanics of the stat points was nice too. All around just a great game. It's a shame that there probably won't be a third.
Yeah I agree! I truthfully love pillars 1 and 2! Good news is Josh Sawyer is working towards creating a tabletop RPG for pillars of eternity that he features on his Twitter a decent amount! So we have that to look forward to my friend!
I honestly think that the scarier classes that you don’t really want to touch your first time through can be a good thing for a game in terms of adding replayability! For example in souls games I’ve never really touched magic or faith because I was afraid of failure. Once I completed a game or two I ended up getting drawn to having a completely different experience with the game. What if I could try it out as a spell slinger? That sounds fun let’s send it. And I’ve loved my experience in Elden ring as a sorcerer. It’s like a hidden new game mode locked until you’ve played through a bit of the game. Might just be parroting everyone else here but I thought I’d add my few thoughts.
If I could take a moment of your time to get a thought; Ive been working on building an RPG for the better part of 2 decades on and off, with multiple iterations (TTRPG, TTwar game, card game, and most recently as a video games) The concept Im using for the class system could be best described as "Hyper Classing" at it's core the game will be a classless start with player working on developing stats to access basic skills/spells/abilities instead of leveling as a specific class. As certain stat benchmarks are reached, and depending on race/region/deity, players will be able to take initial "Foundational" classes. As they become more proficient in that class and increase their stat points, they can gain access to higher tiers of classes which blur the lines of the traditional archetypes by combine/building on specific elements of the previous classes. Examples; Pyromancer requires Elementalist and Monk Priest requires Acolyte and Cleric Hunter requires Fighter and Ranger Dusk Blade requires Assassin and Psychic Hexatrix requires Dusk Blade and Witch Doctor Barbarian requires Witch Doctor and Fighter Artificer requires Runic Sage and Squire Magnetrope requires Geomancer and Monk and many many many other comibinations
I love classes. In fact I'm looking for a single player class based rpg game to play on the switch right now. I think one way you can introduce classes in a video game in a better way is borrowing oblivions idea that you jump into the game and gameplay first to then introduce you to systems before you even encounter more character customization. So in an intro scene of a game you are introduced to all the classes and some of their potential, then at the closing of the intro given a choice of what class you are and what you want to pursue. Maybe offering multiple choices.
I think having unknow classes as sub classes could be interesting. For example if you have a Cleric a sub-class could be enchanter or curser or something along those lines.
Peronsally I would always try to avoid making "learning about a class" not involve text at all. a lot of games seem to try and solve this through outfits. in the character selection screen they make the outfits you wear when hovering over it as telling as possible. make a class called something totally nonsense like "exhalation Spellworker", but mousing over it has you in a steampunk outfit with magic around you and it seems pretty clear its a steam punk styled mage. after that I have seen some games with skills you can click to demo them to see how the class will do combat/what the combat looks like. a step up from that is just a straight up "test clasS" button to seamlessly begin controlling that character to test it another idea is a trailer for each class designed for the character selection screen, not a trailer to show off the game. the big difference is a character selection screen trailer would show the *basics*, not being too flashy, not only showing the cool stuff. cut down on the complicated and flashy stuff as much as possible. this trailer could also show off how the character interacts with the story/other characters
I think for magic-oriented classes, making each class have a unique approach to magic makes branching out a lot more enticing, and even moreso if said magic ability isn't tied specifically to a mental stat. I like to look at approaches of the Mage tabletop RPGs made, with motivations and magical paradigms as broad as Ecstatic/Tantric gnosticism (Sufi meditation, Wudang kung fu, tantric 'scaring yourself into enlightenment'), hermetic ceremonial (pointy hat/wand) magic, and Atom/Solar/Hopepunk Science with a Capital S. Having magic *feel* different for each class can draw in more people's curiosity. What has kept me from playing the magic classes in D&D is the endless list of spells, and spell-management restricted by how many times a day a character may cast that spell. If, say, these were broken down by discussing what the characters can affect at each level and/or the ease that they might do so, it might make them less daunting to unfamiliar players. Lastly, I wouldn't downplay the importance of Perception with magic. These are characters meant to interact with elements beyond normal understanding; by playing up what they perceive, the class can gain an extra element aside from "babble babble Big Damage Hooey" and really allow magic users to feel like masters of lateral thinking, where their 'wizardry' might just be seeing a problem from an angle the other classes don't even know exists.
You bring up an interesting issue. The solution I am implementing in my game is to make none of the classes recognizable, LOL. That's just how it was from the start (before I watched this video).
I usually look for ranged class. Even though I didn't know exactly what is a chanter or a cipher, they sounded like ranged class so I'll probably try them. I could always make a new character or just reset the game if I don't like the character I chose. My main method of character selection usually just whichever has the coolest animation and appearance though. Actually I'd rather have a bunch of character class that I have no idea what it is than the familiar ones. The most exciting part of playing rpg/mmorpg games for me is the character selection. I'll watch every single animation of every single character of every gender available. I'm not really big on reading though. And then I'll take my sweet sweet time customizing my character.
That's a very fair approach and I am sure you're not alone in that! There certainly is value in the unknown, things that look new or shiny can definitely draw a player's gaze and be enough to promote classes if done well! Really appreciate you sharing friend!
I am not able to look at that list of classes and understand intuitively with each one does.. that would explain my recent info hunt online for understanding classes. I guess one thing I'll have to do as an rpg basics is look up a simple chart that well defines common classes .. 🤔
I think one thing that helps is to narrow classes into broad types. D&D 2e did this. Do you want to be a warrior, a priest, a wizard, or a rogue? Those are all recognizable, except maybe the priest to some. Once they pick, say, the warrior, they can look into ranger, paladin, or fighter. Their choice has turned from 1-of-32 to 1-of-3. Even if they pick the priest, which has the most options, you can still ask questions like "do you want to be a generic priest or the priest of something specific?" They might say "I think it would be cool to worship a poseidon-like god" and then boom: Ocean Priest.
@@GameDesignFoundry However, while these systems are new RPG’er friendly, these systems also tend to be more obtuse to experienced players in the genre. Ex: Timmy always plays Paladin in games. Is Paladin categorized as Fighter->Crusader->Paladin or as Priest->Frier/Cleric->Paladin? With that said, I think the benefits generally out way the detriments. It creates a slower learning curve for players as well which is usually the best trait of it.
Ohhh I would absolutely love this. This reminds me of a childhood game I played where the characters started as generic fighter, mage or archer and they would eventually evolve into a really specific type like arch mage or mage of light or for the archers, elvish sharpshooter and elvish marksman.
5e also does this with the subclasses (aka paths / ways / specializations / archetypes / colleges / schools / bloodlines) that show up at second or third level (recently all standardized to third level, I think). On one hand, it's an effective way to add some early-game customizability without completely overwhelming a new L1 player. On the other hand, so much of the flavor comes from these subclasses and it can make it feel like a first-level character doesn't get to do any of the fun stuff.
I like a huge amount of classes, each with their own traits and abilities, i imagine it can be good with class evolution system example: Mage has basic magic spells and at some point it can evolve to other three or more classes that you choose, as an example; Dark mage, Elemental mage, Summoner Warrior goes to Soldier, Paladin, Gladiator I'm not a english speaker but it might be understandable, i guess I like this system from Dragon quest 7, but i'm think it is better without class fusion.
I have a class in my game which is a mix of a bard and a priest. I didn't like the idea of naming it either one of those classes as I didn't want people's preconceived idea of what a priest or a bard is to force ideas of how the class works. It won't be a class that focuses exclusively on music and entertainment and it won't be a holy mage dedicated to religion or a god. The class name I came up with was Canter but then again I feel like it is the class with the least level of familiarity. The class is dedicated to supporting their allies with inspiring songs or words of encouragement.
There is always the possibility of ditching classes altogether. Make a system where players can easily make up what type of characters they want to play. To me, part of the fun of RPG was to create a character and learn how to make it work. You can find out what the character is capable of doing along the way. After all, that is part of the journey and real character development.
Rare unique classes are for veterans that have seen the common classes a million times already. Common classes are for new players. The way to get more people to play rare unique classes in my opinion is to either have more veteran players in the first place or to just not include the more common classes at all.
Best class system are it's absence. Period. You can make basic things of any type accessible for character. Delete strait restrictions of needed stats and instead make it penalty for amount of stats/skills to use it. Like in Dark Souls games for example if You don't have enough strength You swing weapon extremely slow and etc. Build not class system, but skill systems where based on skills You use and upgrade.
To be honest, I find classes to be a little restrictive. That's why Skyrim is one of my favorite RPGs, cause you can be whoever the hell you want to be. Great video btw :)
I do as well! That's why the next video on Wednesday is about the alternatives to character classes! ;) Thanks so much for the kind words! Truly appreciate it!
@@GameDesignFoundry I am sorry if I came off negative. I liked the video, so I actually wanted to hear what you had to say. I have my sound set low but can usually hear most videos, but with yours I had to turn up the volume. I was trying to give you some feedback to improve your videos. You got a subscribe out of me and look forward to your future videos.
Chanter is Bard and Cipher is Psion. Did you REALLY fall for believing these were new just because they had different names? You're giving PoE too much credit.
@@GameDesignFoundry sorry for missing the point. I think it just took too long to hook me before you got to that point. That and if people don't understand that a chanter is a bard... well... there may be little hope for ya lol.
Sorry don’t mean for my points to go on for so long but get very passionate sometimes in the script will try to deliver the point earlier next time! I honestly just didn’t draw the connection until I had read it to be honest! But now that the game taught me, I know and I’ll always know :)
@@GameDesignFoundry you're being very polite! So I wanted to chime in to say that this guy is just giving bad feedback. He is not picking up what you're putting down lol
@@scottciprian2199 It happens occasionally! Especially on topics like this that are opinion based videos! The great thing about game design is there are so many ways to interpret/develop different systems! And I designed this channel to help promote that discussion, even if it sometimes isn’t as productive as I’d like ;)
To make something truly unique you need to actually develop brand new mechanics for the game in question. Every class-based RPG I see always uses the same mechanics, no one does anything "mechanically" new
The other thing that makes class selection daunting is that you're making a choice that will determine nearly everything about your entire game, before you have any idea what the game will be like! People might be more willing to experiment if you reassure them that they can re-spec later, or even make that a default action at some point early on.
A simple approach that just came to my mind from watching this would be to add queries at the start of a game. À la "What *role* do you like to play?" "Do you like to stay at the front and protect your companions?" "Do you like to buff your teammates and let *them* do tremendous damage?" and then the game recommends classes to you based on that. In POE Deadfire, you had primary and secondary roles listed for the classes, which my idea would be a direct evolution of. You wouldn't introduce new classes to everyone, but to those the intended roles of the new classes fit, you would.
I like it! Reminds me of the G.O.A.T in Fallout where you sort of take a test to find what you might like to do! Thanks for the comment! Love hearing things like this!
Worked on a game where we did this:
All players had to go through a tutorial with a pseudo class that could every thing heal, ranged dps, melee dps, tank, buff/support and crowd control, and had to do everything to finish. Once finished every class could fill 3 of these roles and it was clearly marked which could do what. Classes didnt really have names at that point, so cannot say if they would have choose different, but test players did seem to like it.
Unfortunately development have been at a stand still for many years.
Tried something similar in a ttrpg, where players could change 3 character sheets between combat. Realistic no, fun yes. Made it possible for a 3 man party to take on most challenges.
Just found this video looking for answers for my system! You did wonderfully explaining it as I plan on having a TON of classes, so making them all unique but understandable has been a challenge but for now i have all of my classes tucked under an archetype which helps people understand the basics of the class regardless of the flavor. Great video!
My opinion about classes is that you should earn them not quite chose them. What I mean is that I find it weird that you can chose to be something like a blademaster from the begining for exemple. I would like a game that you start with nothing and earn your classes through learning and training the skills related to that class. For exemple I would have to study and train spells and upon mastering enough spells I would get a class like mage or others in the same familly depending what kind of spell I mostly used.
With a system like that you might make actions enough times to unlock classes you never knew about, so that would let more types of classes to be available to players.
Thanks for sharing! Certainly has worked in other titles before and can be an effective way of promoting new classes on the backs of established ones!
I favor less classes, with more build variety within the classes, and the potential to combine the abilities of two.
I can totally understand that! Easy solution with instant effect! Thanks for the comment!
Classless systems allows for freedom and flexibility but that's hard for designers to balance around
Grim Dawn does this in a very good way.
@@getrekt8365 Yes! I played it on the late side (Last Year} But so glad I got to experience that game! Thanks for the comment!
@@lazynav Haven't really seen classless systems in video games, but they're great in TTRPGs.
Good point, familiarity always a big role in our decisions. I was thinking about this recently but more in terms of games overall, I noticed that I want to play some games as soon as possible even if they aren't amazing or innovative while others that are really exceptional are left in the backlog just because I'm not familiar with the gameplay/setting/story etc. I think that as we age we become less open to new experiences unless we intentionally make a choice to try something new.
Getting back to the video I think a good solution here is to let the player start off without a class, then introduce classes gradually by showing them NPCs/companions/enemies of that class.
You make a good point! The problem I describe isn’t unique to one element or genre!
I for sure need to cover open class systems because I think you’re right that it is an excellent answer to the problem!
I honestly think the PC of POE should have been a unique class with lots of flexibility capable of filling absolutely *any* role. It would have made the story-writing more focused, no need to spread the 'class' dialogue options and such.
This is a really interesting challenge! I think the answer is some variant on the solution a few people mentioned, of making the less familiar classes into subclasses of the better known ones. This does raise the challenge of whether it's better to group them by aesthetic or by playstyle. For example, my 5e battle master fighter has a list of limited-use abilities that's as long as a sorcerer's spell list, plus the added complication of managing reactions. If he were a ranged fighter instead of a melee fighter, then he'd mechanically have little difference from a magic user. So, if you want to offer the player a choice between being a battle master type vs a barbarian type, would you make those subclasses of fighter, or would you make the battle master some kind of bard/wizard subclass?
That's a great question, I used to make games for myself only, but due to the pressing of my little brother and friends, I'm trying to recreate them for others to enjoy, the solution I'm adopting for the ARPG I'm reworking on, is the same that Blizzard used for Starcraft and Warcraft, each class, although with fully customizable character, will feature its own part in the story, and i twisted this a bit to ensure that no matter what class you pick, that story chapter is tailored to let you both learn and enjoy that class, with 2 well-known classes, 1 lesser known but still existing class and 1 OG class, although the fighting mechanic is refusing to agree with the custom RPG System i made for now
1. Seeing you talk about P.O.E. is making me want to play again.
2. In terms of classes, I've always felt that the original idea was to name a "Mastery" of something: Warriors are Masters of Heavy Arms and Weaponry, Rogue is master of light arms and weaponry, etc. yet they also never encouraged the absolute abandonment of other class's toolsets. Mages could still use daggers, but they would be *terrible* at it, and the disparity between what you are good at and bad at only grows with each level. Still if nat 20's fall and a situation presents itself a wizard could crit with a dagger to foil an attempt on their life.
There is a design opportunity here: if some base skills from all classes have practical uses in the world setting but the more advanced skills would require mastery and commitment to a class, then at low levels even if the class was pre-decided it does not keep them bereft of using or witnessing the potential applications of other classes tool sets. Or considering the more cinematic on the rails nature of many RPG openings, if there is some large scale conflict going on, individual aspects of battle can be called out and talked about hopefully woven in with a natural flair. Maybe there are demonstrations of certain battles that the character is spared from due to the skills of the class that's protecting them. A situation like this is much more dependent on a vision for the game, so I didn't lead with it but I am reminded of something like dragon age inquisition where, in your path to initially close a rift, you come across a number of Rangers, Warriors, and Mages and get to see them fight, as well as fill out your own party and experience those other classes without actually having them be your main class.
In taking that cinematic approach you as a designer have to purposefully think why is this class in the battle and what can it do best? If you run into issues trying to justify the practicality or possible necessity of a class within a given situation, then this may point to ways that the class and the overall interaction of classes can be tuned for that game.
I can understand the problem mentioned in the video. I have trouble understanding some classes myself, sure I can imagine how they would act, what they could do etc but I won't understand fully until I tried them myself. Heck, even some familiar classes such as barbarian, wizard and paladin might work differently in different games.
As for solution to promoting different classes, best solution would be to have NPC or enemy use those classes so player could get a hint on how each classes act, do and be. This is usually seen in tactics game in which enemies and NPC use same model or sprite set as players'.
Another way to promote those classes (although might be less effective) is to give hint in game. For instance, in Void Pyramid, there are 3 classes player could choose from. While exploring the dungeon, some puzzles/obstacles could be solved/passed by all classes IN THEIR own way. I forgot the details but you can see some signs or messages saying that this object require certain class to interact, other object require other class. This give hint on what other class could do while solving the puzzle/obstacle as chosen class.
Some great solutions! Thank you so much for sharing! Love hearing about stuff like that!
When I picked up Pillars of Eternity, Cipher was the class I choose since I had followed the development and knew that that was the psychic class and psychic abilities have always been intriguing to me especially as opposed to standard magic. It was then more of the sci-fi class within the fantasy game and I enjoyed that. The name I think helps get across that idea of something mysterious and different, rogue-like with a twist.
I can see how some people wouldn't want a class that goes against standard fantasy archetypes within their fantasy game and how Cipher is really the odd one out as even Chanters are directly tied with the bard archetype. Yet I enjoy playing with what does and doesn't typically happen within a standard rpg and mixing genres so in ways that make sense as opposed to being random inclusions just for the sake of having it. It may just be the case that there is no good answer. Someone that wants to try something new will try the new class and those that want to stick with their old reliables will stick with them, especially within a long game like Pillars of Eternity where you'll want to finish the game with that character. It's good to then have class choices that appeal to both groups to broaden the interested player base and to help flesh out your world since class choices are good ways to show what kinds of people are possible to have in your world.
I feel like there are two approaches to this. You either make every class unique and different from your typical archetypes so there's no familiarity so players choose whatever sounds interesting vs what sounds familiar.
Or you go with a classless system that either starts you classes and you work towards classes or it's more about finding your playstyle through mixing gear and skills.
After having played many rpgs through the years with the generic classes, I loved seeing some new (albeit similar to other games) classes with pillars of eternity. Changing the mechanics of the stat points was nice too. All around just a great game. It's a shame that there probably won't be a third.
Yeah I agree! I truthfully love pillars 1 and 2! Good news is Josh Sawyer is working towards creating a tabletop RPG for pillars of eternity that he features on his Twitter a decent amount! So we have that to look forward to my friend!
I honestly think that the scarier classes that you don’t really want to touch your first time through can be a good thing for a game in terms of adding replayability! For example in souls games I’ve never really touched magic or faith because I was afraid of failure. Once I completed a game or two I ended up getting drawn to having a completely different experience with the game. What if I could try it out as a spell slinger? That sounds fun let’s send it. And I’ve loved my experience in Elden ring as a sorcerer. It’s like a hidden new game mode locked until you’ve played through a bit of the game.
Might just be parroting everyone else here but I thought I’d add my few thoughts.
If I could take a moment of your time to get a thought;
Ive been working on building an RPG for the better part of 2 decades on and off, with multiple iterations (TTRPG, TTwar game, card game, and most recently as a video games)
The concept Im using for the class system could be best described as "Hyper Classing" at it's core the game will be a classless start with player working on developing stats to access basic skills/spells/abilities instead of leveling as a specific class.
As certain stat benchmarks are reached, and depending on race/region/deity, players will be able to take initial "Foundational" classes. As they become more proficient in that class and increase their stat points, they can gain access to higher tiers of classes which blur the lines of the traditional archetypes by combine/building on specific elements of the previous classes.
Examples;
Pyromancer requires Elementalist and Monk
Priest requires Acolyte and Cleric
Hunter requires Fighter and Ranger
Dusk Blade requires Assassin and Psychic
Hexatrix requires Dusk Blade and Witch Doctor
Barbarian requires Witch Doctor and Fighter
Artificer requires Runic Sage and Squire
Magnetrope requires Geomancer and Monk
and many many many other comibinations
I love classes. In fact I'm looking for a single player class based rpg game to play on the switch right now. I think one way you can introduce classes in a video game in a better way is borrowing oblivions idea that you jump into the game and gameplay first to then introduce you to systems before you even encounter more character customization. So in an intro scene of a game you are introduced to all the classes and some of their potential, then at the closing of the intro given a choice of what class you are and what you want to pursue. Maybe offering multiple choices.
I think having unknow classes as sub classes could be interesting. For example if you have a Cleric a sub-class could be enchanter or curser or something along those lines.
Certainly viable! Seen that done before to decent effect!
Peronsally I would always try to avoid making "learning about a class" not involve text at all. a lot of games seem to try and solve this through outfits. in the character selection screen they make the outfits you wear when hovering over it as telling as possible. make a class called something totally nonsense like "exhalation Spellworker", but mousing over it has you in a steampunk outfit with magic around you and it seems pretty clear its a steam punk styled mage.
after that I have seen some games with skills you can click to demo them to see how the class will do combat/what the combat looks like. a step up from that is just a straight up "test clasS" button to seamlessly begin controlling that character to test it
another idea is a trailer for each class designed for the character selection screen, not a trailer to show off the game. the big difference is a character selection screen trailer would show the *basics*, not being too flashy, not only showing the cool stuff. cut down on the complicated and flashy stuff as much as possible. this trailer could also show off how the character interacts with the story/other characters
I think for magic-oriented classes, making each class have a unique approach to magic makes branching out a lot more enticing, and even moreso if said magic ability isn't tied specifically to a mental stat.
I like to look at approaches of the Mage tabletop RPGs made, with motivations and magical paradigms as broad as Ecstatic/Tantric gnosticism (Sufi meditation, Wudang kung fu, tantric 'scaring yourself into enlightenment'), hermetic ceremonial (pointy hat/wand) magic, and Atom/Solar/Hopepunk Science with a Capital S. Having magic *feel* different for each class can draw in more people's curiosity.
What has kept me from playing the magic classes in D&D is the endless list of spells, and spell-management restricted by how many times a day a character may cast that spell. If, say, these were broken down by discussing what the characters can affect at each level and/or the ease that they might do so, it might make them less daunting to unfamiliar players.
Lastly, I wouldn't downplay the importance of Perception with magic. These are characters meant to interact with elements beyond normal understanding; by playing up what they perceive, the class can gain an extra element aside from "babble babble Big Damage Hooey" and really allow magic users to feel like masters of lateral thinking, where their 'wizardry' might just be seeing a problem from an angle the other classes don't even know exists.
You bring up an interesting issue. The solution I am implementing in my game is to make none of the classes recognizable, LOL. That's just how it was from the start (before I watched this video).
I usually look for ranged class. Even though I didn't know exactly what is a chanter or a cipher, they sounded like ranged class so I'll probably try them.
I could always make a new character or just reset the game if I don't like the character I chose.
My main method of character selection usually just whichever has the coolest animation and appearance though.
Actually I'd rather have a bunch of character class that I have no idea what it is than the familiar ones. The most exciting part of playing rpg/mmorpg games for me is the character selection. I'll watch every single animation of every single character of every gender available.
I'm not really big on reading though.
And then I'll take my sweet sweet time customizing my character.
That's a very fair approach and I am sure you're not alone in that! There certainly is value in the unknown, things that look new or shiny can definitely draw a player's gaze and be enough to promote classes if done well! Really appreciate you sharing friend!
I am not able to look at that list of classes and understand intuitively with each one does.. that would explain my recent info hunt online for understanding classes. I guess one thing I'll have to do as an rpg basics is look up a simple chart that well defines common classes .. 🤔
I think one thing that helps is to narrow classes into broad types. D&D 2e did this. Do you want to be a warrior, a priest, a wizard, or a rogue? Those are all recognizable, except maybe the priest to some. Once they pick, say, the warrior, they can look into ranger, paladin, or fighter. Their choice has turned from 1-of-32 to 1-of-3. Even if they pick the priest, which has the most options, you can still ask questions like "do you want to be a generic priest or the priest of something specific?" They might say "I think it would be cool to worship a poseidon-like god" and then boom: Ocean Priest.
You make a really good point! Systems like that tend to be more accessible overall! Thanks for the comment!
@@GameDesignFoundry However, while these systems are new RPG’er friendly, these systems also tend to be more obtuse to experienced players in the genre. Ex: Timmy always plays Paladin in games. Is Paladin categorized as Fighter->Crusader->Paladin or as Priest->Frier/Cleric->Paladin?
With that said, I think the benefits generally out way the detriments. It creates a slower learning curve for players as well which is usually the best trait of it.
Ohhh I would absolutely love this. This reminds me of a childhood game I played where the characters started as generic fighter, mage or archer and they would eventually evolve into a really specific type like arch mage or mage of light or for the archers, elvish sharpshooter and elvish marksman.
5e also does this with the subclasses (aka paths / ways / specializations / archetypes / colleges / schools / bloodlines) that show up at second or third level (recently all standardized to third level, I think). On one hand, it's an effective way to add some early-game customizability without completely overwhelming a new L1 player. On the other hand, so much of the flavor comes from these subclasses and it can make it feel like a first-level character doesn't get to do any of the fun stuff.
I like a huge amount of classes, each with their own traits and abilities, i imagine it can be good with class evolution system example:
Mage has basic magic spells and at some point it can evolve to other three or more classes that you choose, as an example; Dark mage, Elemental mage, Summoner
Warrior goes to Soldier, Paladin, Gladiator
I'm not a english speaker but it might be understandable, i guess
I like this system from Dragon quest 7, but i'm think it is better without class fusion.
I just realead it is a 2 years old video,..
I have a class in my game which is a mix of a bard and a priest. I didn't like the idea of naming it either one of those classes as I didn't want people's preconceived idea of what a priest or a bard is to force ideas of how the class works. It won't be a class that focuses exclusively on music and entertainment and it won't be a holy mage dedicated to religion or a god. The class name I came up with was Canter but then again I feel like it is the class with the least level of familiarity. The class is dedicated to supporting their allies with inspiring songs or words of encouragement.
Force inter-class reliance in a way that RO did
But they failed by doing advanced job etc
Great video! Work on the audio and I think this channel could go far :)
Are games really made for everyone though? Like aren’t their usually made for specific groups of people? Great video by the way CRT!
Video response incoming! Stay Tuned!!!
There is always the possibility of ditching classes altogether. Make a system where players can easily make up what type of characters they want to play. To me, part of the fun of RPG was to create a character and learn how to make it work. You can find out what the character is capable of doing along the way. After all, that is part of the journey and real character development.
Rare unique classes are for veterans that have seen the common classes a million times already. Common classes are for new players. The way to get more people to play rare unique classes in my opinion is to either have more veteran players in the first place or to just not include the more common classes at all.
What will a good rpg game with classes for android? Any opinions?
Best class system are it's absence. Period.
You can make basic things of any type accessible for character. Delete strait restrictions of needed stats and instead make it penalty for amount of stats/skills to use it. Like in Dark Souls games for example if You don't have enough strength You swing weapon extremely slow and etc. Build not class system, but skill systems where based on skills You use and upgrade.
Been making my own game, and I’ve designed over 200 classes
To be honest, I find classes to be a little restrictive. That's why Skyrim is one of my favorite RPGs, cause you can be whoever the hell you want to be. Great video btw :)
I do as well! That's why the next video on Wednesday is about the alternatives to character classes! ;) Thanks so much for the kind words! Truly appreciate it!
@@GameDesignFoundry :)
This is why I always favored GURPS and skill based systems.
🥳❤️👍🏿
Or you can just not use classes. Classes are weird, but everyone knows what a sword is
Why are you so quiet? I can barely hear you because you speak in a whisper. listen to another video then come back to this video.
Really sorry! Just how the audio editing comes out in the end! Always trying to improve it(:
@@GameDesignFoundry I am sorry if I came off negative. I liked the video, so I actually wanted to hear what you had to say. I have my sound set low but can usually hear most videos, but with yours I had to turn up the volume. I was trying to give you some feedback to improve your videos. You got a subscribe out of me and look forward to your future videos.
Chanter is Bard and Cipher is Psion. Did you REALLY fall for believing these were new just because they had different names? You're giving PoE too much credit.
I feel like you just don't have enough experience with the primary RPGs like DnD. Cypher is clearly a Psyon from DnD 3E...
Exactly the point of the video :D thanks for the comment!
@@GameDesignFoundry sorry for missing the point. I think it just took too long to hook me before you got to that point. That and if people don't understand that a chanter is a bard... well... there may be little hope for ya lol.
Sorry don’t mean for my points to go on for so long but get very passionate sometimes in the script will try to deliver the point earlier next time!
I honestly just didn’t draw the connection until I had read it to be honest! But now that the game taught me, I know and I’ll always know :)
@@GameDesignFoundry you're being very polite! So I wanted to chime in to say that this guy is just giving bad feedback. He is not picking up what you're putting down lol
@@scottciprian2199 It happens occasionally! Especially on topics like this that are opinion based videos!
The great thing about game design is there are so many ways to interpret/develop different systems! And I designed this channel to help promote that discussion, even if it sometimes isn’t as productive as I’d like ;)
To make something truly unique you need to actually develop brand new mechanics for the game in question. Every class-based RPG I see always uses the same mechanics, no one does anything "mechanically" new