Making Better RPG Classes - What Makes a Class Classic? - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2021
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Nothing is more iconic to fantasy roleplaying games than class systems. The warrior, the mage, the rogue. These archetypes make up a lot of what people envision when thinking about games like Dungeons and Dragons. So how can you make your own classes, regardless of what genre you're designing for?
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#ExtraCredits #GameDesign #IndieGames 
Игры
Now I want an RPG where you can choose from roles in a band. Drummer as a tank, guitarist is ranged damage, bassist can be support, and, of course, cowbell-wielding berserker.
There is an RPG, Umlaut, where each player runs one band. You balance the dreams of greatness with a drab everyday of flipping burgers. As you rise, you also balance the drama, diva tendencies and band conflicts.
There's a video game that does this called Charlie Murder! It's a side-scroller beat-em-up rpg
Tuba boss
That's awesooome! I had a player create a bard character and in the worldbuilding I gave her a rival band and was planning to have the opportunity for them to face off battle of the bands style. But yea, this could be a whole RPG on it's own. Maybe we'll make a cuisine (campaign settling) based on this concept for Battlesauce! 🤔
That’s like really cool bro
I approve of the Discworld reference of the disgruntled city guard holding a small dragon.
Oh, so that’s not a specific mechanic of the game or game world?
Also, the Wizzard hat.
He’s also got Sam Vime’s cigar!
And the barbarian is Cohen. So the big guard must be a Carrot reference.
@@TheLanach Big guard is from Undertale, but the cigar guard is definitely Vimes.
I saw a similar video by the architect of games about the holy trinity, where he discusses the upsides and downsides of the holy trinity of DPS, Tank, and Support. ANd how to avoid and shift the trinity.
Any idea where you saw this? Interested in learning more.
@@Crazyivan777 Adam Millard - The Architect of Games: "Why Do So Many Games Have Tanks, Healers and DPS?"
I'd say the most valuable takeaway from that video is not so much in trying to thwart or avoid the trinity, but in recontexualising the trinity.
basically, define each of the 3 roles by their dominant form of interaction, self to enemy (DPS), ally to enemy (Tank) and self to ally (Support).
thinking about the roles in this matter helps to desolidify them and create more fluidity in how one can approach class design, as well as eliminating a lot of the ambiguity behind what exactly qualifies as a "Tank".
the main issue with the trinity is that DPS interact purely with enemy players/AI, Tanks purely act to broker interactions between enemy groups and their team, and support Purely engage with teammates, which can get route and boring after awhile, as well as limit the range of things players can meaningfully do (though this isn't as big of an issue with DPS)
and so far, recent attempts to try to address this usually just involves making the Tank and Healer more DPS like. however, if we abandon the DPS/Tank/Healer identifiers and instead focus on the forms of interactions a class has and to what degree, then we can do more to liven up class interactions, even if in the end of the day, classes will likely still predominately favor one form of interaction in the name of efficiency.
I like the 'dirty dozen' archetypes (and I don't mean the movie):
- Fast multi-hit melee fighter
- Balanced melee fighter
- Slow single-hit melee fighter
- Multiple projectile ranged fighter
- Rapid fire ranged fighter
- High accuracy ranged fighter
- Debuff offensive magic
- Controller offensive magic
- Damage offensive magic
- Healing defensive magic
- Negation defensive magic
- Buffing defensive magic
It's not a perfect system but it sets up enough variation to start building from or specialize further. And while I say 'magic' that by no means limits this archetype list to fantasy works. The role, not the source of power, is what these archetypes are built around.
A fighter can pick up any weapon. You decide if you pick up a powerful but slow-firing arquebus or an agile sling that day. Or carry a large sword and shield with the crossbow packed behind you. You are not locked into your class, you can adapt to the challenge ahead of you.
@@SusCalvin Realistically, though, a warrior will have to specialize; for instance, as someone whose primary areas of trained expertise are revolver handguns and escrima stick fighting, I don't warrant my chances if I had to pick up an AR-15 untrained to defend myself. I'll obviously have some of the basics down, but not enough to keep me competitive against a trained counterpart.
I like this. This is good.
Mix w of the and boom, 144 different styles.
Like this a lot. Archetypes can always be subdivided.
But to the other guy’s point, if I lived in a fantasy world and wanted to master the art of battle, I would learn every physical weapon known to the world, granted I have all day to quest and train
But “fighter” does kind of imply a close combat type, and ranged classes usually depend on their range through kiting and whatnot. “Battle master” would have to be secondary spec or something to pick up ranged
I've found the tank/DPS/healer necessity is easily and best broken when classes have two roles, one that they're better at. Ie the tank does a reasonable amount of damage, the DPS has some control powers in their pocket, and so on. Each primary/secondary combination can be it's own class, too, leading to a lot of options and flavor. City of Heroes did this very well.
omg yes, I was just thinking about how City of Heroes has an aspect that you don't see as much in other genres and that's the crowd control, which I guess you could put into support, but I feel like it's different.
@@xyvazkrown8048 D&D 4e did this very well.
@@xyvazkrown8048 the problem with this is that this is hard to balance
Not well enough to survive I would say.
Props to The Secret World. “Warrior” is basically anyone with a gun, “Cleric” is blood magic you heal by literally bleeding yourself. “Tank” can be just about anyone with melee and who has stacked up on high hp gear.
When mentioning niche protection in VtM, I want to add rejecting niches and going without clans has its own niche. Namely, it's being the most expendable canon-fodder in a strictly hierarchical, very traditionalist and oppressive social circle. One night of being an abused Caitiff will get the whelps to rethink rejecting the clans. Social pressure becomes one of the most important ways niches are protected, and they are entirely in-game.
I think the artist really likes Discworld. I approve
pretty sure they are. Carro(ct)t me if I'm wrong. It's clear we're all hearing this on the grape vimes now though.
they also like Invincible. Robot's head is visible in a class coin.
@@philippak7726 Oof! I think the Fool's Guild might send their "Jolly Good Pals" to have a word with you about those terrible puns.
@@PrototypeSpaceMonkey they'll have to make some great disk'coveries to get me :P
Gloomhaven nails this, almost none of them are the generic go to and even the ones that resemble the "classics" can very wildly differ from that experience with level ups and depending on how you build them
There's a lot to love about Gloomhaven, but the class design is out of this world good. I'm not sure I've seen another game on same tier in terms of diverse and interesting classes.
EC: *makes video on classes*
Marx and Engels: allow us to introduce ourselves
Tanks of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your Agro!!
@@jacobschuck3468 And MP
Take our dice back from the bourgeoisie!
Redistribute the buffs!
*snapping from the shadows*
vtm taught me that a weakness can be centrally defining and even cool, tells you how to use your powers to compensate
I always love it when an rpg goes out of it's way to make their classes unique, i've recently been playing through 7th dragon 2020 (A psp classic styled jrpg) and it's sequel, and it feels great to pick up a class that seems so simple at the start like the psychic who seems like a regular mage, and then by the end game you are setting up counter attack spells and decoy shields, not just casting damage spells, or the Hacker who seems like a simple debuffer and ends up being able to force enemies to skip their turns and has ways to make the game's rng favor the party.
Disgruntled city guard.... VIMES! That's Vimes!
So, the point of this sponsorship is to convince us to try a Ting or two?
Heh
Good one
Oh, Dad.
Excellent stuff. I miss these game design videos. Don't get me wrong, I love Extra Mythology and Extra History, but I miss having more of these kinds of videos :)
Wonderful design advice as always
2:52- Jack Vance’s Dying Earth had similar thing with spells being mathematics and using more than allotted can kill you.
This also influence DND magic system.
I never played a tabletop game (only exception is Magic the gathering), but this just makes me want to join in on the fun
Shout out to The Warriors reference :O
I get so exited when you realease this kind of videos!
This video actually kind of made me re think my class roles in my ttrpg I’m working on, thank you!
Pugmire? Naw, this is Pun-mire, we got jokes here
3:42 Did not expect to see Sam Vimes as an anthropomorphic dog, but it does make me happy. He is called Vetinaris terrier, after all.
Always enjoyed the class system in Titan Quest. It was simple, you got 2 class and they combined into a combo class (eg Warfare + Rogue = Assasin). Made lots of combinations for builds that were still easy to understand and fun to experiment with.
Grim Dawn is made by the same company and is even better! :D
I think these are pseudo-classes.
Would love to see more RPG focused Extra Credits!! Great video :)
I love how Apocalypse World has its booklets (i.e. "classes") working on the logic "which part of civilization this character represents?"
I think this specific piece of game design logic is most evident in 1st edition, even if 2nd edition is an improvement all around.
3:08 GREATER DOG
I hope you're going to do an episode on no-class games (ba-da-dum-tish) like GURPS. I've always found games that center on classes to be too restrictive and generic, while games like GURPS are much more open to personal expression. In class-based games if I wanted to play a knight who knows fire magic the rules (and DM) would smack me upside the head with a monster manual, but in a class-less game I could gain renown as the knight with the flaming sword... and flaming gauntlets.. and flaming shield... and flaming codpiece...
Depends on the game though. TTRPGs tend to be a bit better than this at CRPGs, but the "fire wielding knight" is pretty much a "gish" which is present in most versions of D&D. It's not exactly an uncommon archtype that is hard to get into. Heck 3.5 just play a Duskblade; basically 80% fighter with 60% wizard and the ability to cast spells by hitting people with their sword.
@@zancloufer Well, yes, everything depends on the game. Quick casual games are a great vehicle for classes. But in bigger games with more depth any players want more options and control over their characters which they can't get from class systems. As you pointed out the way some class-based RPGs solve this is by offers a _lot_ of classes and sub-classes which is confusing as hell when starting a game. Much simpler to allow the player to craft their character as they want.
Ah. Yes. GURPS. I simply didn't think of that one, as I recommended Shadowrun as an example for a class-less game :D
But we all come back to the trinity.
Tank
Healer
Damage dealer
me with my project: i dont have such weaknesses (probably)
@@nathanex5122 a jack of trades is a master of none.
3:05 i don't know what to write but I just got excited over the undertake reference
Making the classics fit into your narrative, so important.
Personally, I'd prefer classes that defined *how* you do something instead of what we have, which is classes defining *what* you can do.
A tank or healer class is boring imo because it tells me how to play my class. But what about classes like psychic and pyromancer?
A psychic could move objects, be telepathic, control technology, see the future, interact with ghosts. As long as it's achieved via the psychic abilities. A pyromancer could use fly around using propulsive jets of fire, create bombs by delay igniting volatile materials, create dedicated and moving light sources, maybe even heal through a type of exaggerated cauterization.
*By defining a class by what tools you have and not the job you have to accomplish, real creativity is nurtured.*
Y'all's Easter egg game is on point today! Too many cool ones to even reasonably name.
I would argue that not all class roles are applicable across every media. For example, in video games, it's easy for the tank to catch the aggro. In tabletop, that's not automatic, and the character would need abilities to help force enemies to on him.
I'm not really a fan of the "mind control" warrior that causes enemies to inexplicably attack him because he says mean things. There's plenty of ways to make a "tank" character not require any sort of taunt to be effective at their role. In most fantasy TRPGs, frontline classes "draw aggro" by being hard to maneuver around or by being a threat in and of themselves that needs to be dealt with. They are the ones that approach ranged enemies while their allies are in cover to flush the ranged enemies out of where they're hiding or by being too big of a threat on their own for the ranged enemies to deal with. Most historical, modern or sci-fi settings don't have as much of a focus on combat, so the "tank" is generally the character that is built for fighting, but sometimes that means they like getting up close and personal with their enemies, sometimes that means hauling around a big scary gun.
The fact your friend reworked Dungeons And Dragons and Vampire The Masquerade is uhh fun
I actually prefer it when a class is the only one who can do something,not only being better at it,because it makes classes feel much more unique and adds to the uniqueness and flavour of the class. Also players feel really special playing their class.
oh yay, an ad for Ting! I've been using them for a few years and have had no problems. Also the hold music for their support line is the end credits song from Buckaroo Banzai 🤩
...after the aforementioned hold music, of course.
Well this episode was useful since I'm currently working on my own hobby project and vampire masquerade being one of my favourites.
My last D&D character was a golden dragonborn bloodhunter, was a lot of fun
3:54 Can only guess that that's a Sam Vimes reference
Yeah! Got the cigar, the helmet and breast plate from the cover art! And one of the swamp dragons!
Came to up-vote this or post my own if no one made the connection. 👍
And that's Carrot and Cohen next to him.
@@PrototypeSpaceMonkey Nah, not carrot, maybe another generic barbarian.
@@LoneTiger he is large and stron like carrot, (for a dog) ginger like carrot, has a shiny breastplate like carrot and there is a scene in one of the books where carrot charges at some castle guards with an axe so seeing as the left one is definitely vimes and the right one is quite certainly supposed to be Cohen I'd say it's save to say the 3rd in the series is also based on a discworld character.
even though the description "Knight of the Realm" doesn't fully fit I'd say that's taking some artistic licence to not change the script for a reference that will go over most peoples heads
My favorite RPG class of all time was "Elf" from D&D Classic
Elfs were a sort of fighter-wizards. You decided if you were going to be a fighter that day or a magic-user. As a fighter you could wear armour and beat fools, as a magic-user you got to prep a spell slot. These two have separate xp tracks, if you spend time as an mu that side will gain more of the xp share. Elfs got a bunch of little side benefits like immunity to Sleep and a few others.
Oh my god, yes. 1st and 2nd edition of the 'Dark eye' had the same thing. "Fighter, Wizard, Thief, Elf, Dwarf" :D
6:07
Potential Interesting roles
Playstyle
Mechanics
Niche protection
Weakness
Is the grumpy Guarddog with the Dragon in his Hand a Reference to Sam Vimes from Guards Guards from Terry Prachett?
I feel like all the dogs on screen there are Pratchett references.
That's what I saw. Although I could see the middle one as Carrot. Who would be the end one? Conan the barbarian?
@@doctormo Wasn't it Cohen the Barbarian?
@@doctormo Cohen, I think you mean.
@@doctormo That's just what I thought.
This cat always make me smile
Wonder if the Cat has the Cat Class
@@The360MlgNoscoper Yes. i think this will be my favourithe one
Is that a music track from Chocobo Racing I hear? That takes me waaaaay back. =D
Wow there was more animation in the ad than the video... and I don't disapprove! XD I've been watching EC on and off for years, and never saw such animation before in one until now.
It's also cool how this is advice anyone can implement, even if they aren't professional game devs, or even aspiring to be.
5:44 Scott Pilgrim reference?
I feel like Nick Dewitt had tons of fun on the art this week
Having now seen this video, would like to see a video discussing the theater of mind vs battle map approaches of TTRPG Combat; which is better for what groups/GMs, and how best to implement either or both styles.
You guys used the V5 symbol of the Tremere but talked about their V20 bane. XD
The New Bane is that they can’t bind other Vampires to them through that blood drinking thing.
About the 1:50 basic classes, in cyberpunk 2020 they woud boil down to, the damager, gues solo, the person that get damage, the dead solo, and the healer, the dial up to trauma team™
These are all excellent points. Well done. As far as the all-bass band, the closest I know of is the Spinal Tap song "Big Bottom" where all three guitarists play bass, and that too was a joke. A very funny one in its time. Also a great song to this day, especially now in fact, in the plus-size model era.
I also like the way fromsoft handles classes, by simply incentivising the player to focus their levels on particular stats, e.g, a Prophet in Elden Ring can level whichever stat they want, but benefits most from leveling faith (or sometimes int depending on ur chosen incants)
1:34 Greetings to one of the best Transmogsets for Priest. Namely tier 5.
I like Monster of the Week and the Fate solution to the class system. All classes/playbooks in Monster of the Week have 7 hits they can take. No amount of leveling can change that. The strength comes in the form of utility functions. The Veteran feels different when compared to The Wronged.
i have been a storm sorcerer in dungeons and dragons once, i was fragile and wasn't the best damage dealer, but i could teleport by shooting myself out of my staff as a lightning bolt, and i could also revive friends by using my hands as a defibrillator.
What if they lost all their blood?
The game I want to build has classes for the techs your character can learn, but you aren't actually beholden to choosing from only one or two of them.
If you're feeling really ambitious, you can grab stuff from all six.
4x Bassist band walks on stage: We are... THE FOUR LEPERS!
That disgruntled city guard turning and holding a dragon... please tell me that this is a reference to Terry Pratchett's Night Watch?!
Nice Scott pilgrim reference with the bassist
I love the Discworld reference in the art for the Guardians!
Glares at 5th edition ranger.
(lack of unique skill/ability and flavorful niche is the issue here imho)
wait are you talking the original 5e ranger or the Tasha's Cauldron rework? because Tasha's cauldron replaces the niche abilities the ranger gets with some really good alternatives.
0:20 is that robot from invincible? Nice one
It's been a very long time since I watched extra credits, where is the other guy with the higher pitch voice?
Stepped down. I believe he left on great terms.
I love Pugmire so much! The class system in that game is so good!
"You can think of this like being in a band." _'Kings of the Wyld' intensifies_
Sad to find that there are no subtitles!
Hey whats that Vampire game yall mentioned called?
03:54 I WANT TO BE DRAGON FLAMETHROWER SUBMACHINE GUN CLASS.
Extra credits have you seen the kingdoms of amalur reckoning classes some include warrior, rogue and mage in one class which is pretty cool
One of the best bits of their 'class' system was the fact mixing was just as powerful as specializing. A lot of systems favor putting all your talent points/stats in a single aspect (like how a WoW Druid didn't want both magic and melee damage), whereas Amalur made mixing sensible and strong.
@@BlueShellshock yh also having the point limit for choosing the class being shown rather than having to guess also helped and the fact that you didn’t have to stick with warrior if you chose it at the beginning of the game also made it appealing
@@BlueShellshock i'll use that knowledge for my project
True. I noticed that if I combine my druid's magic with assassin's suprise attack, I can kill enemies with one strike.
Sounds like a super overpowered game breaker to me.
love the discworld reference
When you mention the tabletop version of Vampires the Masquerade is someone still going to download the digital version?
Aren't those, like, significantly separate things?
Greater dog cameo.
Classy
This really helped I was making a DND inspired game to play with my friends
"If you're playing a guardian in Pugmire, even the name tells you a lot of what you're going to be doing."
*looks at Guardian in Guild Wars 2*
I assume then that it's going to be an op class that can deal damage, tank, heal, buff, and will define the meta for years and years to come all at the same time?
5:35 remind me to keep this concept in mind.
I love RPG Classes cause they can get quite creative in my opinion
City of Heroes made archetypes. they are combinations of roles that turn into a class. range / melee. support / control / defense / damage. Combinations of these roles create character classes. Then you can fill in the gaps.
PANR has tuned in.
I have some good news and bad news. The good news is that you're first. The bad news: ME.
@@BlueShellshock I’ve got a Mushroom, a star and a super horn.
this is sadly the greatest weakness of Blades in the dark, the only thing your class does for you is starting equipment, 1 starting talent and initial stat distribution. After a good number of sessions the only distinguishable difrence remains 1 wait at witch they earn exp
greater doggo be just vibin
the ting ad at the end is more animated cool look better
There were one or two tips that i found useful but they could have been summerized in two lines. I feel like the rest of the video is "Think about these things to make a better class", ok, but i was already thinking about those things, im just having trouble finding the answer.
Thank you for the video.
That Discworld/Vimes reference!
This is what i need
I only know about the Genre starting with Super Mario RPG, then Breath Of Fire II and then Final Fantasy III which was really FFVI for Super Nintendo.
a Pugmire version of Vimes. I love it
more RPG stuff pls
Wouldn’t Cyberpunk 2077 translate really well into a TTRPG setting?
Cyberpunk was originally a TTRPG
Samuel Vimes Guard Dog
Mabinogi - an online game that's classless... or class-fluid IMO is the best.
Don't forget that many if not all classless games have "soft" classes. When you add, say, attributes and skills you also have created possible builds whether they are explicit or not. Sometimes all that avoiding classes achieves is making the builds unbalanced (say, a tank build that only needs 1 stat and 1 skill to stay functional vs a dps build that requires 4 attributes and 6 skills) or encouraging minmaxing. It also makes access to the hobby more difficult for newbies who are unfamiliar with the system or builds as a concept in general. (Not to say it can't work, to the contrary, but you have to be mindful of it.)
For example, Fallout 1 was created with the "soft" classes of gunman/thief/diplomat in mind, but ended up making a 80%/10%/10% general build the ideal one as you can fulfill the latter 2 roles perfectly with just 1 skill each and ignore their other features.
The essence of classlessness is not in avoiding classes, but in having the ability to create more diverse, more finely tuned characters.
There is no balance between classes. I was new to DnD and played as a ranger. It wasn't what I expected at all, and some skills were useless.
Casters in DnD have always been more useful than non-casters.
I love dog-vimes at 3:48. I will dress my dogs in armors and give them dog-end cigars.
I’m organizing a class action lawsuit against that pun
now thanks to Zoey I now want to be a bard that has drums attached to his body so I can rimshot people who tell bad jokes
I always broke it down as;
Player to Enemy (Dps)
Enemy to player (Tank)
Player to player (Support)
Player to area (Control)
3:04 *papyrus theme intensives*
You probably are joking at around 0:30 but there actually IS a Golden Girls TTRPG. It's called Gold and Girls RPG.
0:57 "Wizzard" with two Z's? Is that a Discworld reference I see : )
EDIT: 3:50 Ah! Discworld reference! We meet again!
I caught two Discworld references. Were there any Iissed?