You Deserve Better Side Quests - Extra Credits Gaming
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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You deserve better side quests than having to bring 10 rat butts to the local tavern owner, in EVERY game EVER! That's right! Because creating meaningful relationships between characters and quests can make your world more insightful and interesting for the player. Keeping them invested in what's happening and ready to explore every corner of your world.
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The "skip forward" button in question:
The breath of the wild village you help build is a good example of this. It's sometimes stuff like getting a bunch of wood, but you don't mind because each time you get to see new houses and such. And other times you go around talking to people to find new villagers to move in.
A settlement needs your help.
A settlement needs your help
A settlement needs your help
A settlement needs your help
The most memorable side quest in any zelda game imo is the one where the end reward is the Big Goron Sword. Not Because the macanics are cool it is literally just a number of fetch quests. But because the quests are chained together and we get to learn a bit about each character.
I need to play through the Terry Town quest in my next playthrough. Missed it the first time.
I love how the "get rid of the vermin" quest was approached in Icewind Dale.
_First of all:_ The game starts directly with a conversation, which you can steer towards learning about the local bar. Nothing about the vermin at that point, only that there is a bar and that the person who talked to you wants you to meet him there because he might have work for you to do. (And no, he's not the bar keeper. He just wants you to join his expedition.)
_Secondly:_ The bar keeper isn't speaking about the vermin in the cellar if not pressed. You can ask for a drink, at which point the bar keeper is telling you that she can go and make you something great to eat in the kitchen, but that unfortunately all her beer barrels up here are emptied out. If you press for what "up here" means, she will say that there is a cellar and that there are more barrels, and will then laugh it off when you ask her to bring one up then. If you then press further, she will finally admitt that there is a bug infestation in her cellar and that she is just too scared to go down there to bring a new barrel up.
_And that brings us to point 3:_ The bar keeper isn't wrong about being scared of the bugs! When you encounter them at 1st level with almost no gear to speak of and only some sticks to your name, then killing those agressive pests might well be your doom depending on your group composition and positioning. I remember the shock I was in when I first encountered this quest and my Rogue died within a single combat round by 2 bugs getting the drop on him. And I got in there with 6 characters. Even if the bar keep was a female halforc, there's no way she'd have lived to tell the tale of her heroically bringing a barrel of beer up the stairs.
This encounter is basically telling you everything about the game right away: Death is cheap. Combat is dangerous. And things you think you know might be way different here.
"Potato Flowers in Full Bloom" also does a good job with quests
@@Hauntaku never heard of it, but a bit of google-fu brought up some interesting footage. Thanks for that.
I *love* games that require you to dig a little to get at the quests. Much better than the ones that clog your quest log with all the things you don't actually care to do (yet, or at all). One key mod for *Skyrim* that I intend to install just blocks the automatic quest acquisition, requiring you to accept a quest in order to get it into your log -- it's such a key aspect of autonomy!
The other thing I think you can do with side quests that you didn't touch on: World building. Rather than having no story at all in a town, or having an NPC just flat out explain it to you, you can have the player explore the problems of a specific location through quests that all revolve around the central conflict of an area. If you're going to have a town that's being occupied by an evil empire, you can help a citizen sneak out of town, deliver supplies to a resistance holdout and help an evil border guard pick up a can off of the ground. Little bits of non-story that help reinforce the kind of place the player is in without overtly saying it.
fallout new Vegas is the king of quests that do world building.
Guild wars 2 is not terrible at doing this. Many renowned hearts (local zone quests) revolve around doing several tasks to help an npc. But they are flavoured. Wurms keep injuring ranchers, help recover and care for some cows, fend off wurms, do some ranch tasks. You can choose which tasks to do as all progress the heart, all the tasks are related, and it is part of the overall narrative goal of helping the people/armies/factions. Once you complete a bunch and level up the next story bit happens because the zone is "secure" enough from the players actions to allow the story bit to happen. And every zone has it's own unique factions, characters, and hearts to do.
Obviously not perfect, but the tasks are far less grindy, you sometimes do hearts by accident because some event was happening that looked interesting and you joined organically. And they tend to chain events to cross various heart locations, so you escort an npc to area (get heart for killing bandits), npc passes cargo to a soldier unit that need to be protected while they set up (complete another heart killing monsters), if successful device goes off which allows the npc's to trigger a big boss fight (also in another heart zone).
Overall, a HUGE improvement over the classic WOW quest model.
Like Jak II
Final Fantasy XIV
Xenoblade 3 does this with its quests for each colony, from what I've observed thus far
One of my favorite "rat butt" quests is in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. The first quest you get when you join the fighter's guild is about rats in some lady's basement. But surprise surprise, it isn't a rat infestation, it's her pet rats, and they're being killed by mountain lions. And it's not as simple as killing the mountain lions and telling her there's a hole in the wall. No. First you go find some other NPC, a hunter, to kill some more mountain lions near the city walls to help prevent this again. But still, this isn't it. She thinks someone is plotting to kill her rats. So, you do a stake out at night where you discover an NPC creeping. But you can't just confront her. You gotta catch her in the act. Once you do then you can confront her. Where you're left with a choice. Report to the Rat lady and you'll gain a level in speechcraft. Or don't and the culprit will give you a level in acrobatics instead.
I was going to post about this one as well. It's my favorite rat quest. The culprit also wasn't trying to bring in mountain lions, but rather trying to lure the rats out so the guards would kill them as pests. In fact the culprit is horrified that her actions were bringing mountain lions into the city.
@@bulshock1221 been awhile but that sounds right
You missed a perfect example in the Witcher quest where you do exterminate a bunch of rats from a warehouse. The actual quest is trivial, and it's meaningful because of the character interactions. You have a long conversation with Trish during it, and you are betrayed near the end as they want to turn you into the witch hunters for extra money. The character writing turns this bog standard quest into a pretty meaningful story
Another game that did this really well was Kingdom Come Deliverance. Most of the sides quest were actually meaningful and multi-part. The "fetch quest" style of quests (gather meat, win fist fights, etc) were specifically labeled as activities so the player knows these are less important.
You also get to know the people involved in those quests quite well and many of them are featured or mentioned in multiple quests. Finally, many of the quests serve as learning opportunity for the player by providing a window into particular aspects of late medieval life and ways of thinking.
Honestly, I became quest fatigued when playing that game. Even with these stories I felt like I was a glorified errand boy.
I wish that a games story would start with an innkeeper telling you “go to my basement and kill all the rats down there.” And then the ENTIRE MULTI-HOUR DRAMEDY THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD THE GAMES SET IN is started because of this ONE quest.
He traps you down there talking about how easy it is to capture new adventurers and gasses you. You wake up without any gear on moving carriage through a wooded area. There are others bound up, looking fairly somber. One man turns to you with a stoic expression.
“Hey, you! You’re finally awake.”
It starts with normal rats, but there is a sub-basement. Where a rat king waits directing the horde, with a dozen tails and bodies and your first taste of enemy magic, or maybe magic at all. When you defeat or run from the rat king it becomes clear that there are rats in most of the basements, all being directed like the ones in the inn. That everywhere is being overrun with rats. That the many rats forming the hordes are acting as one.
From there you find out that a demon of pestilence or perhaps something else associated with rats is the what is actually bringing them about as the precursor to the all out invasion of the world by the demons.
I like how Horizon: Forbidden West handles quests, while also doing away with the annoying task of tracking down that one last quest. I especially liked how there were several quests that seemed like one-off quests, which then unlock further quests down the road that build on the characters that you interact with. Not to mention that even in the resource collection quests, there's an aspect of character building that makes you interested in even the one-off quests.
This video makes me absolutely want to play a game where you lead generations of rats battling to reclaim their ancestral home from a corrupt innkeeper
To add to that, maybe the corrupt innkeeper's the unworthy successor to the prior innkeeper...who made a cooperative agreement with the rats ancestors generations (from the rat's perspective) ago.
Oh! And maybe, (after the hero takes down the corrupt innkeeper) the hero themselves becomes the new innkeeper, who restores that prior arrangement with the rats. And it's "happily ever after"...at least 'till the first game's protagonist dies. In which case...sequel?
Not a single mention of Runescape? I'm kind of surprised by that. Even the very earliest and most basic quests in the game - Cook's Assistant (go fetch ingredients for a cake) and Sheep Shearer (go get a set of shears and click on a bunch of sheep) - have little tidbits of fun writing and are well-integrated into the lore of the game. Respectively:
Cook's Assistant gets referenced a bunch, since the cook pulls the same exact trick on literally everyone he can... including an NPC you show around town in a much later quest. The actual problem - that the cook is frankly incompetent to the point where he can't even bake a cake despite trying literally thousands of times - is the whole reason the 100th quest (Recipe for Disaster) gets kicked off.
Sheep Shearer introduces new players to The Thing, which later gets expanded upon until you're infiltrating a compound of Soviet penguins hidden in a glacier. Clockwork disguises are involved.
Both quests also serve important roles as introductory content, getting players used to navigating around the Lumbridge area in particular but also more broadly interacting with world objects and their inventories to complete tasks.
I like how all the far-flung quests of the world give their own little pieces of lore but also tie into the overarching narrative. You can't get the whole story of the God Wars without helping a cult kill a family dog, fighting in an elvish civil war, reprogramming a malfunctioning golem, joining a secret order of knights, saving a tribe of subterranean goblins, and picking sides in a vampire family feud.
I came to watch this video expecting a discussion of Runescape's far above par quest design, smh...
Which is funny, because spacebarring through quests is a meme in the community. Wish jagex had data on how many people actually skip through lore, then again it would probably be inaccurate due to alts of people who already completed quests and bots.
@@runelt99 Yeah, I expect >90% of non-bot quest completions are probably from people doing a quest again. In OSRS, anyway, especially since the backup didn't allow players to bring their own characters back with them. Even beyond that there's more recent things like the Leagues (I've done a number of quests a couple of extra times now just from those...) and similar temporary modes.
Heck, The whole 'Slayer' skill is based around 'these side-quests are so predictable and dull, i could make a script to auto-generate them forever!'. hence Slayer Assignments all being 'Greetings, Adventurer! I need you to kill number of monster!'
I personally think a good example of this is what happens if you take Cait as a companion for long enough in Fallout 4, when she confesses to you that she’s still hooked on all those narcotics and asks you to help her find the vault that will cure her, its the first time she ever asks you for anything, and her gratitude is immense if you complete the quest, so you really feel happy when you are done with the mission
One thing that always bothered me was MMO quests that are along the line of “Hello adventurer, I have a problem and only you can fix it” even if the MMO starts with something like “you are one of many individuals who just arrived to these lands”.
It would be cool, if the start of an MMO talks about you being one in a group of people, that the quests given are more team themed
I.E. “Please complete this test that is available for anyone to complete once” or “as a merchant I’m looking for this stock, you’ll only need to bring me a handful with how many have already helped” or “only brave adventures enter that dungeon and survive, so I dare you to go in and survive” or “can you help the other warriors protect the village from the never ending goblin hoard? Only for a short while” or “if every person kills 10 forest flies, then that should help eradicate the species. What are you waiting for? Kill 10 forest flies and do your part for the community”
Yeah, I really don't get why we so often write multiplayer games like they're single player games. It's not only wasted potential but an active disservice to both the game and the community.
Final Fantasy XIV
The ending of base Destiny had that problem. “Oh no! Only you can stop the big threat!” Well, no. We passed like 4 guys that were clearly late game and higher level than me. I’m sure they can handle it (again).
Destiny is chronically afflicted with only-you-can-itis. Am I a part of a large and well-organized military force with a commander and hundreds of comrade Guardians pitching in against the Darkness, or am I a lone warrior killing all the big bad guys and saving Earth singlehandedly? Make up your damn mind, game!
Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines did this really well, too. They put a few side quests in the same location along with a bunch of others in the area. Some of them required stealth, others were a decent amount of investigation. You needed to look up names in a bail bondsman’s computer! And then you had to read the info and figure out where to go and what to look for next. It was so neat!
A tip from my time playing TTRPGS: tying the quest back to the main story of the game. I remember a D&D campaign where the main goal was to kill a dragon king - a simple, overarching goal. Every detour on our journey there had something helpful to assist in that goal, whether that was information about said dragon king or artifacts to battle with. It really gave us this feeling of agency and richness in the world, where every potential decision had something to be gained from it.
I realized I've killed more rats in more game quests than I can count. Little rats, monster rats, diseased rats and yes even the rat quest for the tavern keeper, but he made no bones about serving them to customers. So another good idea is letting the player set up an extermination service! Gold for rat butts! It's something that was memed more times than I can count too.
Do you think you've killed more Rats or more Slimes overall?
Yakuza is great at doing this, some of my favorite moments are the side quests, and it is all canon to the story of the game, meaning Kiryu actually did all these quests, he actually got super into a children's card game, he actually helped an illegal immigrant deal with her pimp by delivering her a pizza, and he actually worked at a real estate company with the help of his pet chicken Nugget. These even go across games, with later games continuing the quest chains and bringing back characters from side quests.
Yakuza also gets real creative and hilarious with its quests sometimes, and each of them have a satisfying start, middle, and end. I don't usually go out of my way for side quests but whenever I play a Yakuza game, I will literally go out of my way if it means doing another substory.
every time i play any RPG game, one of my thought is "What crazy side quest that i gonna get to out of this game" because for me, a good side quest can make the player feel good to do to level up, exploring the map better and the NPC have more character that even player want to just sit down and have a chat before back a new quest
I like the Kingdom of Loathing version of this where it turns out the rats are in the inn’s basement because someone left the rat faucet on
then in later special ascension path you go back and there aren't enough rats.
For all it's other issues, Cyberpunk 2077 had some fairly good side quests. Even the simple fixer gigs often have more depth to them than a surface look would reveal. And even the NCPD jobs will have links to other gigs or side stories. Course to see that it often means reading the notes you come across.
That makes sense with Witcher 3 being his best example.
I think "Collect 10 rats" quests are great. Because they made me give up on world of warcraft at level 15 and I never looked back while half my friend circle turned into total WOW crackheads, back in my university days.
3:00 this reminds me of the quest Neko is a Cat in Genshin Impact. it tells a story about a cat asking us to repair her shrine in hopes that human returns to the shrine and maybe her friends too, not knowing that her friend is dead long time ago.
NieR automata is one of the only open world games I've gone out of my way to 100%, and that's mostly because a massive chunk of the side quests felt like good episodes of a TV show with their stories, whether or not the quest itself was actually interesting to play or not.
Bounties in pillars of eternity and deadfire take the place of the ratbutt quests so I think there is a place for them so long as they are characterized correctly
So yeah, turns out I'd love to play a game where the innkeeper hires me to deal with the rat problem in his cellar. Gotta get a druid to speak with animals, get local government involved, apply for grants from the king, ensure both sides have good legal representation, negotiate land rights and usage rights, hammer out and register written agreements... Maybe I'll get the blacksmith & bandits expansion.
whenever good quest design comes up my brain automatically bring up that bloody baron from the Witcher 3.
that quest had me going through every single emotion a human can have, i was sure i'd murder this monsterous man but by the end i felt pity and helpd him move on peacefully and be a better person.
I'll remember that quest till the day i die.
Yeah, one of the weird effects of that is the quest line is so good, the rest of the game doesn't quite measure up to it, even when the stakes are higher. Even though it's been years since I played it, I remember almost everything about the Bloody Baron quests, but only recall bits of other quests that happen.
Some of the best side quests I’ve played were in Kingdom Come Deliverance They really add to the immersion/narrative
That game was great for immersion. I especially like the potion crafting system.
@@thawhiteazn Potion crafting is really something, it seems like a tedious chore until you actually give it a try, then next thing you realise you just brew potions for 30mn and you haven't noticed the time flying by.
@@Biouke yeah I spent way too much of the game like “ain’t nobody got time for learning to read” but I ended up being forced into it just to make potions.
This feels like the base of an NPC character for D&D. funny we don't apply it more to electronic gaming!
Especially in a RPG.
@@SirDavid290 FINAL FANTASY
This is exactly how Runescape's quest design works. Back in the early 2000's, this sort of quest design was common in MMOs, with the obvious offender in World of Warcraft. Runescape never really did this sort of thing - even back that far back, while Runescape's quests were still dominated by one-shots that were designed really simply, most quests weren't really like this, with only the absolute noobiest quests being anywhere near the 20 rat ass quests and only Imp Catcher being much of a pain in that regard because it required 4 different relatively rare drops from an annoying mob. And then, in 2005, Runescape released the Slayer skill. With Slayer, you ask dedicated characters called Slayer Masters for a task. The Slayer Master then generates a Rat Ass quest for you by rolling from a table some number of some mob that you need to kill. "Go kill..." _rolls dice_ "...118 greater demons." Killed 'em all? Great. "Now go kill..." _rolls dice_ "...79 blue dragons." In this one skill, Jagex made it _abundantly clear_ how formulaic this plot structure is. There's nothing to Rat Ass quests but "Go kill rats," and Runescape's Slayer skill proves this beyond doubt by offloading this structure 100% to RNG.
Two words:
Souls games
I know it's a worn out thing to bring up but they are a master class in quest chains developing character and world narrative. You don't need the difficulty and obscurity that those games use for other reasons to do exactly what they are doing from a narrative perspective.
This is a good look at the problem narratively, but making the quests mechanically engaging is also important. I'm going to enjoy killing those 10 rats a lot more in Dark Souls, where the combat is difficult and rewards playing thoughtfully, than in Skyrim, where the rats and I just swing at each other until someone dies. I had a hard time enjoying most Witcher 3 content because I didn't find the combat or other gameplay mechanics engaging, and while the narrative helped it didn't fully distract me from how little enjoyment I got out of the actual fighting. It's a balance to be sure, and sometimes you can get away with just one thing being strong, but getting both right is the real recipe for success.
I would suggest you try playing Witcher 3 Enhanced Edition mod. Overhauls almost every gameplay mechanic, but most importantly it improves combat drastically.
So it’s not just me who thought fights in Skyrim are annoying? Thank you!
@@bleistift2775 I don't hate Skyrim combat, but is is fairly basic. This is why I usually end up playing stealth daggers/archery instead of a straight melee build.
One of my favorite games that does side quests well is the Mass Effect trilogy where the quests go on to effect future games in both a big way and small ways showing you are making actual change to the world
And then they ruined it at the end.
Having side quests be narratively, world-buildingly and character-wise important is something I never really consciously thought of, but appreciated when I saw it.
I'm glad you dragged it to light.
there is the rat killing quest in Morrowind's fighters guild, where it's meant to be an introduction to the kind of menial work that the fighters guild does on a normal day, while also having some fun because the person who gave the quest is obsessed with pillows for some reason.
This reminded me of the aftermath of a couple quests in genshin impact. One of the characters asks about a sword, and after you go clear the area out you return and they give you a reward. They then ask you if you found the sword, and then give you the quest reward. It's a massive missed opportunity that there is never actually a sword to find, because think about how cool it would be if your random daily quest just happened to have an optional part to it. It wouldn't even be difficult to implement a sword sometimes appearing in the fighting area, but because they didn't it just drops so much depth that could have been there
Tip: if the dialogue associated with a sidequest takes longer to get through that collecting those ratbutts, you're doing it wrong. :)
✍🏽 Give ✍🏽 rat butts ✍🏽 a 1% ✍🏽 drop rate ✍🏽
Got it!
6:25 - "Now for side quests this can't be some piece of vital information, especially if they can be missed."
*From Software has entered the chat*
I feel like this advice will be useful for DMs too. I've always struggled with the "side quest" part of running a campaign but hopefully the advice in the video will make it more interesting for my players
This reminds me of something Max0r said about the side quests in Cyberpunk 2077
“This game is like reading 6 dirty copies of war and peace, and every 20 pages you have to stare at cardboard.”
In FFXIV most side quests don't lead anywhere, but there are a few that have long quest chains with a special reward at the end for players that go out of their way to do them
"Rat's ancestral home"
Idris Elba: You...keep talking
I really feel like Ghosts of Tsushima had some memorable side quests with a narrative that motivated me to see them through
Ishikawa chain ❤
I loved the writing in that game, but I was a bit disappointed when nearly all of the quest activities boiled down to "go to place, kill mongols." And that same action would repeat in every link on the quest chains.
mongol bad, samurai gud, shinobi cool. easy and simple.
One game series that’s consistently done side quests well is the Kiseki/Trails series as they often have world building story to them, some connect to later side quests and you’re rewarded in both narrative and gameplay for doing them as characters will acknowledge the reputation gain and you get access to better gear for your characters.
I usually do most quests regardless but I like the sound of narrative quests. If done well and not overly long they would be really fun.
Guild Wars 2 actually is a good example of good side quest and story quest design. Sure, you could fight the creatures, but some quests give you completion by solving riddles, talking to ghosts, etc.
I made a quest in ESO where you have to kill and collect ten rats and then turn them into a ten headed rat monstrosity to scare someone. Short quest with goofy characters - the two who give the quest, subtly reveal that they swapped bodies in their last failed ritual. It doesn't always have to be a quest chain but in general, selling meaningful relationships or making meaningful quests definitely takes time. Chains are a great approach.
I've always wanted to play a game that starts off with many one-off rat butt quests that evolve into a main quest and it's up to the player to piece together the clues/coincidences/connections to get into the game's main purpose.
Check out fallout 2 you'll love it for that very reason.
@@erithanis Can't believe I forgot Fallout 2. Was going through a massive burnout at the time, but I really liked that game.
@Paul Lenuou yea. I remember more side quests from that game than anything else I've played. And the details, like finding a body with a name on the bracelet and having to choose whether to tell the loved one the person isn't out travelling anymore or let them pine waiting for their return.
This video reminds me to some sidequests in Star Ocean. In these quests, player (as Ratix alone) can wander around city (current one) and talk to any party member to increase relationship. Some talk could open up hidden mission requiring entering dungeon to complete. It was memorable and gives depth to sidequests.
In general, the reason behind kill 10 rats sidequest is simplicity for both players and developers. There are many ways to make it less boring without doing too much extra work.
I like the tip given in the video about adding another tied sidequest or adding narrative. Tying the sidequest to main quest narrative might be good too.
Love to Extra Credits returning to it's roots! Analysing games through the lens of Art is what made me fall in love in this channel.
Fallout New Vegas has the best side quests:
Ghost Town Gunfight is one of the first quests you find in the starting town. The local residents ask for your help in defending from a raider gang. You are naturally invested in the town because these people helped you after you almost died from a bullet to the head. But they don't send you to kill x number of raiders, or bring y amount of weapons so they can defend themselves. Instead you have to use your skills to convince the people to help. And then you can help in the final battle against the raiders. Or you can decide to help the raiders take over the town. Or you can just decide this isn't your problem and move onto other things. And the game rewards you in the ending with slides that detail the future of the town depending on your actions.
Or you have the quest Bleed Me Dry, where the owner of an arena has you collect eggs from different creatures for her arena. This is a simple fetch quest, you literally go to a place, get the eggs and come back for a different objective until you find all the possible eggs. But this simple quest is meant to make you explore the map and discover locations where you can do more stuff. The first part of her quest makes you visit Vault 22 where you can do 6 more side quests, including 2 for the NCR, one of the major factions. And this quest rewards one of the most powerful shotguns in the game and a possible romantic partner (the questgiver) regardless of your character's sex.
And the we have Beyond the Beef where you investigate the disappearance of a rancher's son. I don't want to spoil this quest because it has over 5 possible endings, depending on how you decide to tackle it.
Every quest in New Vegas has either an interesting story, or memorable characters, or multiple paths to completion, or is related to the larger conflict of the game, or shows interesting worldbuilding, or illustrates the messages of the game.
Sunless Skies and Sunless Seas have the best and most creative side quests of any game I've ever played. They don't generally have the same level of decision making as something like Pillars of Eternity (which takes 2nd place in the side quest Olympics imo) but they're so rediculously well written.
Those are games where you can turn over a rock (sometimes literally) and discover a transformationally good little novelette of weird, gothic, eldritch mystery/tragedy/horror.
It's masterful.
Small bit of colour to make that rat butt example already better:
You enter the tavern and just ask about for information. The barkeep gives you that info but, seeing you armed, asked you to help them with some vicious creatures in the basement.
You ask why the local lord doesn’t help, and they say that they asked but received no aid and so have to ask you to help for nothing but good will. Completing it gives you some favour with the barkeep and maybe some of the locals who praise you for helping.
This allows for colour (the government is weak and falling apart, gives the adventurer some levels, and allows you to have a mini arc for the tavern)
Personally I think Final Fantasy XIV did a good job with a lot of its one shot side quests, as most usually give you a decent context as to why they want you to go out and complete the various tasks. Be it slaying a creature or gathering some seemingly random trinket, there is usually always something there added to expand your understanding of the world and its characters. But this is likely an uncommon example of there being actual time taken to write a very short story behind each side quest to help with immersing the player in the world if they choose the time to read what is being said by the NPC's giving the quests, as well as the hand in items often have descriptions attached to them. So yeah I agree we need to work harder on side quests in games, as a good side quest will help with world building and immersion, while a bad generic one can just annoy a player and break the immersion.
Regarding the Quest skipping expectation, I have found it similar to a philosophy I have picked up in life: Respect cannot be expected, in doing so you will lose it. Respect must be given freely and you will find that in doing so, you will earn the respect given to you. ... Meaning, if you want players to give your quests respect, you must first respect your players enough to give a quest worth respecting.
This is the really big difference between Guild Wars 2 and any other MMO like WoW. I remember trying WoW and there were so many fetch quests while leveling. But in GW2, you do an event in an area like, collecting a bunch of grapes for a farmer. But then all the grapes attract an attack by centaurs because they want grapes! And after the attack, you got to attack the centaur camp to keep them from attacking again! Chains, peeps.
FF 14 does a good job with side quests. You start off with simple fetch/kill quests, because you're a nobody. But you gradually start getting more important and complex quests as your character becomes more important and famous. Of course, that also reflects the game's development; the devs were initially under a lot of pressure to fix the original (bad) release of the game, and they had more time to make better quests as the game went on.
The first summoner game had a very good side quest, there was even a side quest that spanned from the beginning of the game up to the almost end of the game which gave you a very rewarding equipment.
I do think that part of the problem is just the sheer number of quests we as players have to do in most side-quest related content, particularly in MMOs, coupled with the lack of any real value most quests bring outside of just "progress to the fun part of the game". If I walk into a town and see 6 side-quests, I'm probably not going to have the patience to read 6 opening halves to a story that doesn't really have any relevance to the plot, but you bet I'm going to take all 6 at the same time because it's more time-efficient than doing quests one at a time.
I like the way Genshin Impact did this. They have a series of side quests that form a chain about one particular character. I just finished the first part of the one about the "Darknight Hero," and I learned about the politics of the main city and its guardians, some sort of beef between two of the characters, and got a chance to really interact with one of those characters. I am loving it.
Also Paimon deciding that "Captain Pie" is better than the "Darknight Hero" is priceless.
Probably the reason why I remember more from the Spiderman ESU missing students quests than the other side quests... And enjoyed how it branched out from the main story line.
I'm playing Final Fantasy XIV (a MMORPG) as I watch this. One of the other issues with sidequests are quest hubs. FFXIV does put effort into its side quests, and it has side quest chains where you'll follow an NPC, and a lot of the sidequests are helping to fill out environmental lore. However, I arrive at a new town and there's 12 sidequests. I'll go to each NPC, read all the dialogue, and move on to the next one. By the time I get to the quest location, I don't remember why I'm doing or for whom, and the conversation when handing in also has little context since I don't remember what I did for the quest. The number of times I've gone into a dungeon not remembering why I'm there because I had other quests at the same time is almost 100%. I do agree with you that I think a smaller number of more focused and better written quests would be more enjoyable. Most MMOs, I'll read the main quest stuff and skip all the side quest dialogue.
One thing they do right is limiting the amount of effort their quests need. A lot of quests don't require any killing. When there's drops needed, it's usually at 100% so it's little more than an alternate way of counting kills, and when needing to kill, it's usually a small number. The regional quests where players might need to work together, a single player might only need 12 kills to complete the quest. Stuff that depends on rare drops or rare spawns do exist, but they're rarely tied to quests.
Really wish Destiny 2 would do this more often. Most story quests end up being "go here and shoot bad guys and at the end you'll get some dialogue if you don't immediately leave"
With destiny's amazing cast it makes me sad we don't get to go on very big narrative arks with them. This has gotten somewhat better recently (see the season of the haunteds therapy sessions) but it could definitely be better
The quest in Legend of heroes trails in the sky where theres a stalker in the hot bath and you gotta investigate lives in my mind rent free 24/7 you expect it to be some random pervert and find him, then you find its not a person but a pervert monster, you thin "well its just one, kill him and leave" then it turns its a horde of horny monsters that escape, they are a lot of classic monster fodder there and just when you think its no big deal they combine into a mega sheepatron transformer and roll out, THAT QUEST WAS AMAZING, after that quest I never skipped a quest in any trails game, I was floored
I love Xenoblade Chronicles 1 & 2's side quests cause they usually pop after a major story events and are usually the fallout or side effect to that event. Like a new area opening up new dangers, are people you met before are trying to leave town cause their home was invaded. They have reasons for asking your help and have seen you around town and seen you fight so they know you are a traveler and either you or someone in your party can get something done.
I especially love XBC2's blade quests cause you learn the personality of your blade through your battles with them, victory dialogs, and flavor text so when their special quests unlocks you see why that particular thing is meaningful to them and form a deeper understanding of what they are like, and they are all completely optional only needed to fully upgrade a blade's skill tree if you want to.
Imagine if Dark Souls NPCs just wanted rat butts. Solaire just needs 5 rat butts to find his sun. Siegmeyer just wants the gates open to Senns Fortress and then he just leaves.
When it comes to sidequests in FF14, I'd say the Tribal Quests have it right, especially since they're repeatable.
Typically, these quests form minor errands that are simple "there and back" style quests. They also randomly select three quests each day, so there's variety there. Storywise, these are literally just minor errands a lot of the time. You build up trust with that tribal faction, then after a few days to a week, you get a mainline quest for the faction that advances their story and adds more quests to the pool.
Let's use the Vath as an example. Their goal is simple. Set up an adventurer's guild in their territory. Your daily quests are basically supply runs or "our guys have run into some trouble, go check on them" for the most part.
The main quests for that faction though are focused around both building up the guild and your Vath friend trying to fully assert his individuality from the hive mind that the Gnath (the wider faction that the Vath broke off from) are subject to.
@@ShinyGG At this point, the only HW tribe I haven't completed is Moogle.
I am a solo designer working on an RPG, and I agree. I think one reason so many of these quests exist, is frankly just that they are easy to make. You just make a variable to count the 10 things they need to get, which are already items in your game world, and then a "switch" or boolean to determine if they've done it or not. Then they go back to the NPC and he spews out some fun little lines of dialogue about the quest, and you're done. It doesn't really make for good content though.
The guiding principle I've used while creating my game is just constantly asking "Why?" Why are they doing this, why does he need that, why is this item in the game world, why does the quest giver live here, why is his village here, what do they do, etc. and on and on. If you do this, your content will fit into your game world coherently, and the quests and personalities of the quest-givers will also be integrated into the game world. This ends up netting you "World Building" points just by you continuing to design your game.
I find quests can even be boring, hum-drum, or run-of-the-mill gameplay wise, but if you remember that you are creating a Role. Playing. Game. which needs to take place in an interesting Fantasy. World. the quests will create engagement for the player. We don't even need the high-level triple-A studio mechanics everyone dreams of some day creating themselves- "living breathing world," day night cycle, radiant AI for the NPCs, etc. You can create the illusion of a living, breathing world using very deterministic mechanics with only basic programming, and the player will buy into it and be engaged if you've done the above.
Good video.
I think the big reasons for filler quests are a) lack of imagination, and b) pressure from studios to create as much content as possible for monetary or advertising purposes.
My favorite game that handeled side quests well is crosscode, has plenty of variety in them instead of alot of go here and gather item or kill x enemy, still has those but usually as the start of a questline.
My favorite sidequest uses the setting perfectly, its a game in a game so the sidequests are a mix of stuff from the npcs that are players and npcs of the game in the game, my favorite has you team up with a player to glitch out of bounds into a dev testing area with some puzzles and a test boss with essentially glued together assets, the bosses drop is also the basic healing item to further solidify that it wasnt meant to be fought.
I did often enjoy the quest chains in WOW, the ones that had an actual storyline in Vanilla were quite enjoyable.
I've always thought using a quest chain for low level TTRPG characters is the best way to start a campaign, as it can package character backstory, why you are a party, and setting up the larger narrative really well, versus the lvl 1 Goblin Stomp for a bounty
Reminds me of the isolated side quest in the Super Nintendo game Chrono Trigger where a character, who since the beginning of the game had a paraplegic mother sitting in a rocking chair at home, goes back in time to her childhood home where her mother is caught in a crazy home invention and is going to lose her legs. You have to shut off the machine by entering an unknown password. If you paid attention, though, you'd learn the password is the mother's name. Which is a name you'd known if you paid attention even earlier. And when you enter L-A-R-A on the controller and go back to the future, the mother just walks around and says things like "oh, it's such a lovely day for a walk".
There's no bonus item or XP or anything. Just the joy you feel for helping someone... and, I guess, the satisfaction of solving the puzzle.
As a person who is on the last localized trails game (Trails of Cold Steel 4) that series has done amazing things to make me care about even the most minor NPCs, unlike something like final fantasy the whole series is a persistant world, each game still has an independant ark and theres 3 "sets" of games so far (Sky 1/2.3, Crossbell 1/2 & Cold Steel 1/2/3/4...you could arguably spilt Cold Steel into 1/2 and 3/4) that have their own larger arks.
Narfi from Skyrim is a decent example of this. It’s a super simple fetch quest but the choice at the end is something that kind of sticks with you.
I love Majora's Mask because of it's side quest-y nature and the fleshing out of "side characters". It's one of my favorite games still because it does side quests so good
Each rat has an 11% chance of having a butt, but no other rat parts will be accepted as proof.
Yeah, that's the reason I stopped playing WoW after trying it out. Just a bunch of busywork design to fill time.
2:00 leave it to Extra Credits to get me invested in the "Inn keeper was the real villain" plot line
I love how in Pokemon games, your primary quest is "Complete the Pokedex". Your secondary one is "Defeat the region's Champion". And then you just encounter other people's lives and events.
Team Rocket? Sure, they're a criminal organization actively causing trouble, murdering resistant mother (Marowak), and attempting a "corporate merger" (with Silph Co.), but you never have a "quest" to beat them. Yes, you'll have to do so because they keep impeding your progress on the main quests, but you've never been tasked with doing so.
The same applies to each evil Team to deal with.
The side quests that typically come up are things like:
"Will you trade me for this Pokemon (to advance your Complete Pokedex quest)?" (For which you may have to go find a rare Pokemon to trade, if you haven't already obtained it.)
"Will you watch over this Pokemon for me?" (which you may be able to choose to return later, and can choose to not do so!)
"I (or Someone I have interest in) lost an important item in X area and am not able to find it, will you please return it?" (For which you will typically be granted a service/item that empowers your gameplay. And even if not, it's usually a believably important lost item for that character, rather than just '10 flowers for unclear reasons')
"Will you get rid of those ruffians that are troubling me/this place?" (Typically unlocking a service or location)
Legends Arceus rather breaks the mold by explicitly having a quest system, but it also made big changes in a number of other ways. And it does so quite well! Even collection quests tend to be tied to helping deal with apparent problems, and may give you access to new items or services. Some may even encourage the player to gain meta knowledge (or give up and look up a guide), which I don't think I often (ever?) see in other games. (Referring to the Manaphy quest).
Completely unrelated but my grandpa (born in 1915) used to sell rat tails to the county as a bounty program. His cousin lived in a different county that wanted heads so they would mail each other the appropriate parts and get two bounties for the price of one
I'm addicted to the sidequests in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, partly because every side quest has some impact on the state of the world, while digging into the deeper ramifications of overturning its war-torn setting. The sidequest arcs often make me feel like more of a hero than the main story!
Majora's Mask and The Witcher 3 have the best side quests. I still love the "Guild" quests in Skyrim.
Another point about Witcher quests specifically, is that there’s usually more than one way to complete a give quest. Most commonly, with monster slaying quests, there’s usually a pacifistic route, that serves to defy the world view that Witchers are only heartless killers, and that all monsters are evil. They encourage players to think critically about quests and examine the facts before enacting judgement. Sure, things sometimes boil down to “monster is evil, now kill it” but it helps develop Geralt’s character as more than a simple monster slayer.
Ironically enough I was just thinking of the rat quest, people look down at it because it's a troupe, but people don't realize that civilians wouldn't be able to fight back rats that give adventures a fight. The town would surely die off if the rats aren't taken care off.
one of the big reasons i love borderlands2 are the absolute best side quests in the series
Including the greatest questgiver of all time: Face McShooty.
One way I could see making one off sidequests work is rewarding them narratively. Let's say you go to this run down inn where you clear out the rats, what if you were rewarded with getting to stay at the inn for free and cheaper prices for food or alchoholic beavarages. And everytime you go to the innkeeper he reacts with something along the lines of "Hey, how is my favorite customer?" or with another more personal greeting. And as the story goes along this inn keeps growing and becomes more profitable.
Now the player cares for the innkeeper, as the relationship feels more personal, and since you get to stay there free and get cheaper food and drink they are motivated to return there. And since players keep returning there again and again they will grow more attached to the place. And because of the adventurers help the place thrives. Now a sidequest that was all about hunting ratbutts is one that the players will remember more fondly with very little effort. Seeing a change in the world, even a small one, is quite rewarding.
Heck one good example is the 14 heart events in Stardew Valley. When you do most of them the world changes in one way or another, a grave where Abigail killed her first monster to save you, a tv room in the back of the bar where the guys watch sports each sunday, a painting you painted with Leah, a music box from Sam's career as a music maker for a cartoon etc. None of these changes really matter in the grand scheme of things, but they are sentimental because these changes happened thanks to you. And these are nice mementos of your relationship to these characters.
Ff14 started doing this with some of the quests in storm blood, where you help an npc with something over the course of several quests, often interlinking with another quest chain later.
This is an area in which I think Final Fantasy XIV has noticeably improved over time. There are a LOT of "kill X nouns" quests, but as the expansions keep coming, there are more quests that link together, or develop characters or locations, or unlock a new story. Heck, the Endwalker expansion managed to make follow quests that are fun - because you're walking and talking with NPCs you care about! (Also they move at the same speed you do. That part is definitely key.)
Having intriguing side quests ultimately depends on having good communication between the writers and the programmers. Not only should the task be enjoyable to play, it should have a noticeable effect on the world around you, what you do should matter in the game world.
A chore that needs done is a endemic part of a interesting world no world is complete without the day to day life stuff
ESO has done this very well. All their quests are either part of a chain or are a daily quest to go kill a world boss or do something in a delve(solo dungeon).
I was longing for a new video about quests!
I enjoyed and used lots of the knowledge I gained from your videos about game design, storytelling, community, and quests, and would be so much happy if you would make more videos on those topics.
Thank you so much! 😄
That was pretty interesting. If there's one downside to better quests, though, I'd say it's getting too many at once. It's really easy to get overwhelmed if I roll into town and I'm suddenly on six different multi-stage quests, feeling pulled in every direction.
As someone who plays any game that allows it as a “mercenary” who does everything for pay and remains as neutral as possible I see nothing wrong with motivation for a quest being as a simple as “have job, will pay”
It's not necessarily about the _player_ having other motivations, but the other _characters_ should have motivations and at least a little bit of depth so they're distinguishable from a flat piece of scenery from a grade school play on a tight budget.
Even if I'm playing a mercenary with purely financial motivations, I want to be able to suspend disbelief for the rest of the world too, have varied quest design, and have the quests I'm sent on feel like the kind of quests a mercenary would be sent to deal with.
There's still a narrative framework there and a fiction to support to help someone feel like they're actually playing that mercenary.
I do find the idea amusing, that the NPCs are having very serious problems and story arcs, and then you come in solving them stoically like a janitor with a mop.
"Ah yes a dragon cursed your house, happens all the time"
I mean, you can have it both ways. The monster contracts in Witcher are designed around this idea. Geralt is a professional who will take the job, haggle about the price and then do it. But the contracts quest still have some of the best writing in the game.
I feel Final Fantasy XIV handles side quests fairly well. Many early ones do feel a bit chore like but even early on they incorporate some fun writing and world building in them and their multi-part quests always create interesting narrative arcs and often lead to unlocking cool extra content. There's still SO MANY of them that people will often skip through the dialog, even I'm guilty of doing that a lot, but it definitely rewards you for stopping and taking the time to read through the quests and I try to do it more often when I have the energy to do so.
now I know that not all the side quest in these games are like what I'm going to say but many quests from borderlands are good because they can come from the main characters like how scooter in borderlands one has a side quest that has you go back to the first area you start in "the Arid Badlands" and have you check on a character you meet early on T.K. Baha and this happens a lot more in borderlands 2 and 3 were main characters send you on side quests but it still is also a good formula as it fleshes out their characters beyond "we're your friends go do this thing for me"
My favorite fetch quest was in Monster Hunter Generations: Get 3 Abyssal Mushrooms.
Reading the quest is nothing special, they're located in a remote part of the map. When you arrive, a cutscene plats, introducing one of the box art monsters.
This monster is miles ahead of a newbie skill level, and challenging for experts. It teaches newbies the importance of survival and prioritizing the mission objective, and a reward for those daring and skillful enough to take down the monster early.
The Trails series of games does this really well. Most NPC'd have a mini story line you can follow by speaking to them at different points of the main story, and all quests enter into those mini stories.
Trails from Zero (which will be coming out in English in two weeks!) comes to mind. The setting is super focused into a single city, so you get to know the inhabitants really well. By the point someone asks you to get 10 rat asses, chances are you already know why they want them.
I loved this in BOTW when there was a city building quest with many character arches. Even though it is still guilty of this problem.
This is something I enjoyed about The Outer Worlds. Lots of Quest Chains with Personal Interactions. It wasn't just done for the Rewards, but also for Story Progression.
Nier: Automata ALSO had some GREAT Side Quests that I really loved
Elden Ring (and to a similar extent all the other SoulsBorne games) does quests really nicely I feel
while, yes, you do have some npcs asking you to do something for them when first meeting them, their quests are often quite long and require you to meet them several times, leading you to naturally develop a relationship with them.
Millicent's quest in particular stands out to me, as an example
the fact that some of the quests in these games have entire sections that can be skipped or missed, or even have failure states somewhere along the path makes it all the more interesting
Everything in a Fromsoft game (except Sekiro) is designed to emphasize that your character isn't important in the world. Miss a quest step or unknowingly fail a quest? Tough luck, the world moves on without you.
@@stevejakab274 yes, and it's amazing
Not something mentioned per say during the video, but the problem with quest design isn't just quest action and duration, but quest conclusion, and quest consequence. Players will remember a "memorable quest" WAY MORE if they get a cool or powerful item out of it, that they'll actually use or have the chance to see often, but also if players get the sense that the quest they did actually meant something, like seeing a town build up over time, services popping up or being unavailable, or paving the way so that the task you were sent on to do is now an industry managed by other people, that you can just pay to have done. The word for this is 'keepsakes', and they're little baubles or mantlepiece decorations that we might not think about often, but have an "oh yeah!" feeling of nostalgia whenever we see them.
Remind me how "Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth" has some great Side Quest, each working as a self-contained mini-story, having little to a lot of character growth for the NPC and even thou I'm pretty sure each of them ends with a fight, there's different build-ups to it, based on the task you're given.