It wasn't just that Ned found Jaimie having killed the king, it's that he also found him sitting on the throne while his father was busy sacking the city after giving the false impression that he was there to reinforce it. That just made it look like an outright Lannister powergrab with Jaime and Tywin having conspired for this outcome all along. That's why Ned judged Jamie that harshly.
@@borko1382nd this, the context of the events is super important to Ned’s genuine misunderstanding. It’s not a character flaw, he just thought he knew what happened and was wrong.
I agree. I think since Ned was the first person who judged him over having slayed the Mad King, he's always resented it. He hates being The Kingslayer but it could have been worse. If everyone knew about him and Cersei, they'd call him The Sisterfucker, instead.
deep down jamie knows hes better than everyone and saved 500k people from terrible death and hes annoyed that this beloved man of honor is too dumb to realize and admit jamie did the objectivley correct thing and that hes way more of a hero than ned could ever be
@cwill4270 the thing is that Ned didn't know about the Wildfire. Jaime never told anyone, which led to everyone believing that Jaime switched sides when all was lost.
I'd say the biggest issue Ned had with Jaime was the timing of it all. Jaime could have killed the mad king at any point since he was always around him but he chose to do it only after his father had already entered the city and it was over for Aerys anyways. Ned didn't know about the wildfire thing so to him it looks like Jaime was team Aerys until Aerys lost them he jumped ship. Jaime sitting on the iron throne was not a good look either.
If Jamie had killed Aerys prior to the army arriving to provide support, what do you suppose his situation would have been in court? There were still Targarean loyalists around. That would have been an incredibly suicidal thing to do.
The funny thing is that Jaime is still too proud at their later meeting to admit the real reason/final straw why he killed Aerys. Ned does know what conflicting vows are (he was involved in a rebellion after all) and we see him prioritize protecting children over other duties.
Ned knows what conflicting vows are but, in order to rationalize Jaime's viewpoint Ned would have to know/believe that Aerys was planning on leveling King's Landing with wildfire. And in Ned's mind Robert has now ruled in King's Landing for over a decade and not mentioned anything about wildfire so, why would Ned believe him?
@@cmac3530 I don't think that Ned believed Robert ruled. If someone is actively ruling, they're not battling against the forces of the former ruler. I also don't get the impression Ned really believed Robert was the rightful ruler either. He believed Robert would be an improvement over the sitting king.
@@jenniferpearce1052 Maybe "rule" wasn't the right word. Robert lived in King's Landing, inside the Red Keep, and his men had unlimited access to all of King's Landing. No one in Robert's service ever came across any wildfire caches. At least to Ned's knowledge.
@@cmac3530 To be clear, I'm not saying Ned would believe Jaime on his word but but the proof is still there (on the plus side for Jaime, he even gets to taunt Ned about it). My point is not how quickly Ned would believe his story but that Ned is likely to accept those reasons (after checking) if Jaime told him bluntly enough to force him to investigate.
It's tragic that the one deed that truly defined him as a true Knight was twisted into a condemnation of him as the vilest betrayer ever. This series is something else
Yup, bad timing tbh. Ned just happened to find Jaime sitting on the throne, but didn't witness the mad king screaming for everyone to be burned to death. :/
@@thelegacyofgaming2928Jamie could’ve rode out and demanded his father stop the pillaging or protected the rest of the royal family from the Mountain. Instead he sat on the throne and did nothing. He might have felt the victim because he did one good thing and called it a day, but he deserved the contempt he got for his dereliction of duty. He saved the city just to abandon it. George R.R. Martin had Stannis say it best. “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.”
To be fair to show Ned, the blow Arthur took from Howland was fatal, it was almost a mercy killing. And completely different context, if Jaime had killed Ned in the street there Robert would have arrested him.
@@ReeceDeeDifference is the Starks didn’t massacre an entire royal family down to the babes, difference is they only had the choice of dying or trying to survive. Jamie could’ve still kept atleast a shred of his honor by protecting Rhaegar’s children who had been personally entrusted to him by Rhaegar from the Mountain or riding out to demand his father stop the pillaging. He did none of that. He sat on the throne and waited for the children Rhaegar had entrusted to him were placed at the foot of the throne wrapped in Lannister colors. Jamie even has a fever dream under a weirwood stump where Rhaegar and the fallen Kingsguard Arthur Dayne included curse him for failing to protect his wife and children. Even Jamie with his grandiose narcissism knows he deserves the contempt he gets, even if only subconsciously.
I think you're spot on. It's fun to see a more grounded and less magical vid from you. I was waiting for you to tell me how Jaime is actually the Night's King and also Qaith. And a horse.
Being a fan even after this many years can be still be rewarding! Thanks for that, it somehow never occurred to me in the fashion you just supposed. Great job :)
There is one element of what winning the swordfight woul prove that you missed. In GoT, where trial by combat is a well established concept, winning a sword fight could actually prove you are just. Though I don't think this was author's intent (cool swordfight goes brr) I think it's a nice interpretation, on top of the simpler (and probably correct) explanation that it was about Jaime's ego.
It also somewhat comes down to the dichotomy of Stark and Lannister philosophy. Lannister is might makes right, Stark is honour makes right. Ned thinks he can win by being most just in the face of his enemies, Jaime knows he can win by leaving his enemies dead.
7:02 Love how that bunghole Ned neglects being a rebel himself like walder Frey said to Cat "I also remember swearing an oath to the crown too, which make you and your boy and those 20 thousands fools all rebels."
And dont forget tywin just pillage the city killing a lot of innocents, so he probably thought jaime was in this together and was all their plan the Lannister just betrayed and joined the war in the end. Ned thought to convenient
@@0cidd0 of course that part too I can’t believe I ain’t mention that like yeah Ned wasn’t the best political strategist but I think people are kind of unfair to the character😭
Literally, with a massacred royal family at his feet wrapped in Lannister colors. He could’ve tried to stop his father or protect the rest of the royal family. Instead he did nothing. I just can’t believe people try to make it seem like he’s a victim for the contempt he brought upon himself. He literally has weirwood nightmares of Rhaegar cursing him for failing to protect his children and wife. Even Jamie subconsciously knows he deserves the hatred he gets.
Jaime is well aware that he is the better fighter, but it is about getting Ned's respect while simultaneously proving that he is a better man than him.
I've always wondered how important the detail that Jamie was sitting on the Iron Throne was. Jamie seems to think Ned was judging him based on the dead king, but it was more than that, wasn't it? Lannister banners were up, the dead Targaryen children were wrapped in Lannister colours, and there Jamie is sitting on the throne. Jamie looked terrible in that position, of course Ned was judgemental. The mundane version is that Ned disapproves of the Lannister opportunism and baby-killing in general, and Jamie seems very untrustworthy by sitting on the throne. I mean I've read Jamie's thoughts and even I don't fully understand what he was thinking by sitting there. The fun version I entertain sometimes is that Ned knows a bit about Raegar's prophecy, and something about evil deeds by a Lannister/lion on the iron throne is included in the prophecy, so Ned is very deeply concerned by the sight... even though the prophecy was actually referring to Cersei.
Exactly this. The only way Jamie could’ve seen himself as the victim was because of his rampant narcissism. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne personally entrusted the protection of his children and the King to him. He failed tremendously at both. Aerys is understandable enough, but what happened to Elia And Rhaegar’s children is unjustifiable. He sat on the throne and did nothing until they were placed at his feet wrapped in Lannister colors Jamie had a fever dream under a Weirwood stump where Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne curse him for failing to protect them. Even Jamie subconsciously knows he deserves the contempt he’s created for himself. He’s simply too egotistical to admit it to himself so he needed to put the blame on Ned.
I think Jamie doesn't believe that Ned killed sir Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy with skill-honor (he likely didn't). I don't think it's about Jamie proving himself to be the best so much as proving Ned is a liar
@@jenniferpearce1052no, it’s publicly known that Ned killed Sir Arthur Dayne somehow, he returned Dawn to house Dayne after all and there would have to be SOME explanation for what happened to a member of the King’s Guard.
I think a big difference here is also psychological. Jaime seeks validation for his actions (and we could go into why, because of Tywin and Cersei and so on). But the very need to seek validation is what creates the disdain from Ned's eyes. The Starks bear their duty. When Ned breaks his duty, he does so and bears it without seeking approval. He bears it and accepts what comes with the dishonor. And that is the difference between the two men. It is not that Ned cannot conceive of breaking a vow, or doing something dishonorable. It is that he believes you accept the consequences of that decision. Ned is willing to take the black and be branded a traitor, because he believes there are more important things than honour. However he would never try and seek validation for his actions to another, like Jaime Lannister, and this is why when he tries to appeal to Ned, Ned shows disdain. He expects a true kingsguard to accept the consequences of his actions. I actually think that Jaime starts to learn this lesson throughout the story after he loses his hand. I love their comparison, because they are similar in many ways. And different in interesting ones.
The show may have lacked the story-in-a-story complexity and the deeper use of symbolism, but there were some truly great moments, and the first scene between Tywin and Jamie was one of them.
Here's the hole in Jaime's narrative about how Ned found him sitting on the throne, while not shown in all its grandeur in the show the book version of the Iron Throne is massive not just a fancy chair but a huge mound of misshapened swords built into a half dozen stairs as well as the throne seat itself , so he would have had to climb up to the seat not exactly the actions of a man who was simply exhausted whether physically, emotionally, or spiritually.
it's remarkable how much more time efficient it is to have all of this depth portrayed on screen. It would take chapters and chapters to portray this depth in text and only 10-20 minutes of screen time. Really unfortunate this masterpiece was destroyed in the later seasons, it could've been something great.
How was Eddard executing Will a “bad choice”? It was all really par-for-the-course. I understand Will was fleeing a supernatural boogie man, but he fled from the far north, over the wall, and past his sworn duty. He could have stopped at Castle Black, but he didn’t.
I don't think it is unreasonable of Ned to dismiss will/the deserter. Come on, every time someone runs from the wall and claims the Others scared them off you're going to launch an investigation?
If Ned Stark is about to kill you, tell him you saw the others and you'll have at least the trip to the wall to try and escape. Neddard would become a laughing stock.
@@RickyT15I mean Lord of Bones is still yanno. Wearing a bunch of bones. I could see someone thinking he was a type of Fae like the Others if they crossed his path. There are Fae that collect bones. The Toothfairy for example.
You know I like the idea of recapturing as much of the good from the show as possible. It was fun while it lasted to share a phenom with everyone superbowl style but now its an ecosystem of real fans.
Jaime had a very specific reason for not killing Ned and it had nothing to do with honor. Ned specifically states kill me and your brother is as good as dead. Ned on the other hand, killed Arthur Dayne as an act of mercy. Had nothing again to do with honor. Either he could leave Arthur to bleed out or he could put him out of his misery much like you do for an animal with a serious injury.
Ned gave Arthur a mercy kill out of a sense of honor. The backstab was fatal. There was no recovery possible. Had Jamie executed Ned there, Tyrion would be killed, and Robert would prob send Jamie to the Wall, minimum. I don't see Jamie as having a sense if honor in not killing Ned. It was a sense of self preservation.
16:30 Well, one was stabbed in the leg (granted, in that time, it might have been deadly still) and the other one got stabbed THROUGH THE SPINE, NECK, AND THROAT so Ned basically mercy-killed Ser Arthur, it's not like he could feed him some bread and call it a day Video-Game style. Also, the situation was quite different, Ned was trying to save and free his sister, it was a clear war and he knew, alive Arthur was a big threat to his goal, while Jaime needed Ned to be alive, he had a numerical superiority and just went with the play. I am sure, that if Ned had the opportunity, he would have restrained from killing Jaime, so the stakes from both sides were much lower.
Whats most tragic about Jamie's charater is that he IS one of the best people we get to see a POV of in the show. He is constantly being miss understood. He is trying to be a better person all the time. you can see the struggle he has every time he says something snappy. The only evil thing he did in the books was pushing Bran, and he had a very good reason to do so and he was not happy about it all (un like in the show that they made him smile through it)
Basically he took the approach that he would neither confirm or deny the claim that he killed Dayne in single combat. Neither him or howland reed ever actually talked about what happened at the tower of joy so people just assumed the ward of the north did it instead of his subordinate from the bog.
The way I looked at Ned's judgement of Jaime is that he stopped the Mad King (swapping sides) immediately before he'd have lost. If Jaime turned for noble purposes, why didn't he stop Aerys before he killed Ned's family?
That's a very shrewd analysis and I like it. Jaime probably tells himself and others that he was stopping the mass murder of millions, but most of all Jaime realised that the mad kings plot would have killed Jaime too, so there's definitely some self preservation at play here. If not for self preservation he was aware that his father and family were inside kings landing too. In either case he places himself or his family above his vows as a kingsguard. In that reflection he realises that he could not bring himself to act with the chivalry or courage that he admires in Ser Arthur Dayne. Jaime probably hated Ned because he saw him as a righteous hypocrite, Ned too threw out his vows when he engages in open rebellion, and he knows that which Ned refuses to acknowledge, that sometimes are moments where you are forced to choose family over the honourable thing. Towards the end of Ned's life, he's almost forced into the same position, to go against the crown which he has pledged his fealty to and his branded treasonous because of it.
Ned was too prideful, sometimes not in a honored way and sometimes in a very naive way (which madenhim die). Jon was a perfect Stark because he was honored as Ned but open to changes and open to help the north people
Ned's honor that he got taught by Jon limits him a lot. he makes stupid moves because of it. i liked the Starks of old, they didn't value honor that high.
@16:30 it wasnt the exact same situation. after killing Arthur they can save the hostage and leave, while killing Ned could result in war with the north and tyrions execution.
Someone said in the comment section of another video ( I think from the Fandome ? ) that Jaime might be realizing that Ned isn't up to Arthur Dayne's standards , as he's fighting him , and is probably finding out that something isn't adding up about Stark beating Dayne.
Might have been my comment I’ve said similar Things on other videos. Just before the Lannister guard wounds Ned it seems like Jamie has a disappointed look on his face. He’s likely realizing that Ned isn’t in his (or Arthur Dayne’s) level in swordplay. So I think he knows there’s no way Ned beat Dayne in a one on one fight.
I like that Jaime is so frustrated that Ned makes a judgement of him for being dishonorable, although he thought he was doing the right thing. Then when one of his guys stabs Ned in the back of the leg, thinking he is doing the right thing, Jaime literally punches him in the face for being dishonorable.
The fact is Jamie was SCARED SHITLESS of Ned. Then and now. Back then, just one look from his stone-grey eyes was enough to chase him off the throne that he had so brazenly sat on. I mean, what reason did he have to sit on the throne? If killing kings is so "tiring", then he could have flopped down on the floor or sat on one of the seven steps that lead up to it, but not on the damn thing itself. What did he expect? Sitting on the throne is a statement that can easily be misunderstood, especially while his Father held a slaughterfest outside. Even a boy of 16 could have guessed that this might be a bad joke. And later it becomes clear that Ned defeated Jamie's idol and role model in a duel, who was considered invincible until then (to be fair, we don't know what happened and hopefully never will, because it's too funny to keep him and all his defenders guessing). That's probably why he trained so hard to become the best swordsman in Westeros. He knows he didn't became part of the Kingsguard because of his skills, but because the Aerys wanted to rob and mock his father (which worked - Jamie will never be the heir to anything). And he's still fearfull of Ned. Why? Because why else would he face Ned, Jory, Heward and Wyl with thirty men from his guard? Is he trying to compensate for a lack of balls or skills? He's trying to avenge his idol to some extent and wants to make it clear to himself that he doesn't fear Ned, wich he does. It's so ridiculous. Later in his dream he thinks he sees Ned's ghost and bawls out like a child how much he doesn't fear him, lol. Yes, keep lying to yourself, little man. We know the truth. But the Lannisters aren't that into the truth anyway...
Jamie has issues with honor that effect his confidence and self esteem. He saw the world in one way, with the naïveté of youth, and learned the harsh realities. He doesn’t fear death or battle with anyone, this is obvious from reading his POV chapters. His character development after he loses his hand is all about reconciling his youthful arrogance and disillusionment with the realities of the shit reputation he has and the shitty world he lives in.
Jaime doesn’t want to prove that he’s the best you totally missed it. Jaime knows how good Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selma were, he knows that Ned didn’t beat him in a duel, beating him easily will show his lack of skill and prove he killed the man dishonorably
It's because Ned killed Arthur Dayne, the man who knighted Jamie. This is why it's a big deal in the show when Ned doesn't kill Arthur Dayne, he loses to Dayne, and it is Howland Reed who stabs Dayne in the back. It shatters the Myth of Ned Stark as a great swordsman. It's also why he doesn't fight in duels and doesn't want people to know what he can do: Because he cannot live up to the reputation of the man who bested Arthur Dayne. He's a fighter, but he's just not at that calibre.
If you are experiencing the story for the first time I think the book version has some extra merits. It adds more hype for when Ned and Jaime might fight in the future. The problem is that never happens. So it's good that the show lets us see them fight--or even let's us see Ned fight at all for that matter. And yeah having them fight is so good for Jaime's character.
16:55 although there were smart phones and internet in that time period - there were still plenty of witnesses common folk and Kings Guard and Jaime killing Ned and flogging it as a pure kill might've been questioned and he absolutely wouldn't want that. Dane's death was done minus an audience so as long as Reed kept this mouth shut about the truth - it could be spun in anyway required.
Jaime was the realest most loyal person in this whole show. He is the GOAT of TV history! He deserves his flowers. Give him his 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
Id like to say i love the fact that even though the one thing jaime values most(aside from cersi) being the best warrior, against his worst enemy(fickle, his foil, and his nick name maker) who also imprisoned his brother is taken away from him. he still doesn't kill the henchman who took away his opportunity of lifetime even though he's supposed to be a evilish villain who would normally kill his henchman but doesn't
Jamie just wanted to see if he was actually as good as he thought was (himself)-What better way than to challenge and maybe beat the established Ned. Ned let him think he was good but not for long-Once Ned quit toying w/him and put his game face on it was over for Jamie and Jamie knew it-u could see the look on his face when he realized he had bit off more than he could chew. His man saved his life by stabbing Ned in the leg-or so the man thought because I don't think Ned would have killed him, just taught him a lesson and, to Jamie, that may have been worse than death.
I think the thing that gets overlooked about ned. (Probably because we dont get his viewpoint early on in his life) is that Ned is a hard man who has seen some shit. Like in his kids eyes hes a very good moral compass, so we the reader see him as inherently good. But ned is a very hard man.
13:10 not like either would've entered the Melee, He can care less about ned's sword play which is why in the source material he doesn't even bother to get off his horse.....
Situations are similar, but not the same. Ned still had a chance to save Lyanna, but only by getting through Dayne. Jaime knew killing Ned was Tyrion’s death sentence. Both did what was necessary to save their sibling at the time, which arguably proves their honor is equal in standing, considering they both made the best choice for their scenarios.
I think it’s occam’s razor for the deserter he probably thought that he was afraid of wildlings or just ran away. It’s not like the nights watch was reporting other sightings. FYI I’m only a show watcher but that’s my interpretation but I see what you mean Ned will follow honor even if it harms him or potentially other people. Also from what I think I’ve heard the lanisters switched sides basically at the last second they could instead of fighting for the king and their oath.
We wouldn't have a story if Ned had embraced Jamie for avenging his brother and father.. Jamie is like a gun fighter that just has to find out just how good the other gun fighter is... The Jamie Ned dynamic changes after the tower of joy... I've always wondered why Ned didn't tell Cat about Jon's parentage after he knew he could just her...
I think a crucial part of dialogue you’re missing is when Ned goes on to say “you served him well, when serving was safe.” Ned would have respected what Jamie did had he done it earlier when it actually might’ve cost his something, but saved someone else.
10:07 that’s how you see it? In my head I’m picturing me and thousands of veterans picking up a rifle and performing a functions check mindlessly before we walk out to conclude bussiness. 😂. But imagine a Navy Seal, or Ranger, or MARSOC, like a bad MF’er being like oh dammit Bobby needs me. Except we have rifles. Or like a Doc Holliday. Just because you can win a duel doesn’t mean you HAVE to. Basically, Ned is a professional warrior. It’s not a game to him, it’s life or death, training secrets and all. It’s very militant.
One thing I don’t see many people talk about when talking about honorable ned is that he was only honorable to cover up the dishonor of him hiding Jon snow and not telling anyone he truth about what truly caused the rebellion. It probably eats him up that he can’t tell anyone due to the promise he made so he makes up for it in other ways. Sorry I’m not well with words but I think you get my point lol
I do wonder how things would have went if Tywin did actually try and take the Iron Throne for House Lannister in a double-betrayal type of situation. Imagine a younger Ned and a less experienced Jaime going at it in front of the Iron Throne.
For the tv show, I thought it would have been great if in season 1, Jaime tells Ned that he doesn't believe he actually beat Dayne. Then in season 6 we see he didn't.
It’s ambiguously phrased but I thought that when Ser Arthur Dayne fought the Smiling Knight and offered to let him pick a new sword that he actually gave him his sword at the Smiling Knights request
Jaime secretly had a lot of respect (maybe even fear) for Ned Stark and cared deeply about what Ned thought of him. Jaime holds Ned’s conflicting views in very high esteem and this gets under Jaime’s skin big time. Ned Stark is an extremely proud man. Ned has a ton of charisma and belief in himself and values, but no arrogance. He is a major follower of rules and laws, yet is a very relaxed kind of guy. Most people would call Ned a rigid tight ass and boy scout, but Ned is so chill and confident with himself that people think he’s usually in the right and thus respect him. He’s as solid as they come.
I think the main reason wasn't due to how Ned treated him, otherwise he would have killed Ned, he's toying with him. I think he wanted to clarify Ned hadn't defeated his idol in combat. He wanted to know if Ned was the living legend was portrayed to be... He soon finds out he's not.
This is show only stuff, but George was an integral part of the show in this era. Maybe this was his chance of publishing this scene both ways. Crannogmen are known to fight with tridents & nets, so Howland Rees may have stabbed Arthur Dayne from afar or thrown a net on him, both of which would have hampered his ability to fight with a sword.
I haven't seen the video and I know it's because Jamie wants to prove himself against the one who "supposedly" defeated the Sword of Dawn, Arthur Dayne. Also The disdain that Ned has always shown Jamie upon finding him in the throne room with his sword still bloody from the king's blood.
How did the deserter make it from beyond the wall to winterfell territory? Did he just go through the main gate then run away? Or go around- which if he did, he would find himself in others land more than starks
Ned was absolutely right about Jamie because he didn't kill the mad king for honour but to mainly save his father and saving the city was a byproduct that Jamie convinced himself was the main reason as ned said was a reason to help him sleep at night because while Jamie wasn't the dishonourable villain everyone thought he was but that doesn't make him the honourable hero either
While the fight made for better TV viewing with a similar outcome as in the books, the problem is having Ned and Jamie cross swords and for Ned to hold his own. Even if Jamie just wanted revenge for the capture of Tyrion and the kill some Stark men without slewing Eddard, having them come to blows directly completely changes that dynamic. Jamie at this time is probably the best sword in the realm, if he crosses swords with somebody he'd likely to make short work of them. Blood would have been up on both sides, especially Ned after seeing his men killed. If they came to direct blows he would have wanted Jamie dead, perhaps Jamie could have wounded him if he kept his composure to ensure Tyrions safety, But when does Jamie at this stage of the story ever do anything that's not rash. Throwing Bran out the window, this attack, Whispering Wood, his pride snd ego would have gotten the better of him and probably would have killed Ned. Its not until he loses his hand and his time with Brienne we see his redemption arc start to unfold.
The reason that in the show Jamie wanted to fight Ned was that he knew that he "defeated" Arthur Dayne who was the greatest swordsman to ever live. Honor and curiosity dictated that he fight and best Ned by his own hand.
I find it funny that Ned judged Jaime for stabbing Aerys in the back like he didn't killed Arthur Dayne while Arthur was on his knees ... on his back from the front on their knees to the side killing is killing i think that kinda like Jaime justified his pain Ned's personality is also doing the same as Jaime and branding other types of killing dishonorable and dissing people for their "bad" actions while not confessing or acknowledging his own in a way he has less moral righteousness than Jaime but then again Jaime does his own sister and pushed a kid from a castletop what's funny is that Jaime would probably judge Ned in a worse way if he knew the disgraceful way in wich Ned killed his childhood idol
there is another side of why jaime did not explain himself to stark. he is kingsguard to his bones. which means he wont devulge the secrets and private matters of king (even though murdered and deposed) to the outsider, which clearly ned is. his vows forbid him to do so.
It wasn't just that Ned found Jaimie having killed the king, it's that he also found him sitting on the throne while his father was busy sacking the city after giving the false impression that he was there to reinforce it. That just made it look like an outright Lannister powergrab with Jaime and Tywin having conspired for this outcome all along. That's why Ned judged Jamie that harshly.
Well said
@@borko1382nd this, the context of the events is super important to Ned’s genuine misunderstanding. It’s not a character flaw, he just thought he knew what happened and was wrong.
Good point. I didn't see it that way.
I was hoping the C.C. would have brought this up but glad you did.
@@Pyromaniac77777 it is a character flaw, cos regardless of the reason that he assumed, he still assumed and didn't ask, just judged.
Deep down Jaime's always admired Ned but he's too proud to admit it even to himself
I agree.
I agree. I think since Ned was the first person who judged him over having slayed the Mad King, he's always resented it. He hates being The Kingslayer but it could have been worse. If everyone knew about him and Cersei, they'd call him The Sisterfucker, instead.
deep down jamie knows hes better than everyone and saved 500k people from terrible death and hes annoyed that this beloved man of honor is too dumb to realize and admit jamie did the objectivley correct thing and that hes way more of a hero than ned could ever be
@cwill4270 the thing is that Ned didn't know about the Wildfire. Jaime never told anyone, which led to everyone believing that Jaime switched sides when all was lost.
@@childishgrimm9610 was Jaime GIVEN a chance to explain tho, or did Ned just immediately assume?
I'd say the biggest issue Ned had with Jaime was the timing of it all. Jaime could have killed the mad king at any point since he was always around him but he chose to do it only after his father had already entered the city and it was over for Aerys anyways. Ned didn't know about the wildfire thing so to him it looks like Jaime was team Aerys until Aerys lost them he jumped ship. Jaime sitting on the iron throne was not a good look either.
Absolutely. When people make videos like these they too often attempt to see things from one characters point of view and undermine the others.
Bruh he was 14
@@realhillkellmen are considered full grown at 15 in this world. Robb was 15 when he became Lord of winterfell.
@@myujmes Rob was not really considered full grown. Teenage boys were expected to step up. It was part of the process of growing up.
If Jamie had killed Aerys prior to the army arriving to provide support, what do you suppose his situation would have been in court? There were still Targarean loyalists around. That would have been an incredibly suicidal thing to do.
The funny thing is that Jaime is still too proud at their later meeting to admit the real reason/final straw why he killed Aerys. Ned does know what conflicting vows are (he was involved in a rebellion after all) and we see him prioritize protecting children over other duties.
Ned knows what conflicting vows are but, in order to rationalize Jaime's viewpoint Ned would have to know/believe that Aerys was planning on leveling King's Landing with wildfire. And in Ned's mind Robert has now ruled in King's Landing for over a decade and not mentioned anything about wildfire so, why would Ned believe him?
@@cmac3530 I don't think that Ned believed Robert ruled. If someone is actively ruling, they're not battling against the forces of the former ruler. I also don't get the impression Ned really believed Robert was the rightful ruler either. He believed Robert would be an improvement over the sitting king.
Jaime does try to tell Ned in the throne room but Ned is too simple to pick up on the hints and Jaime realizes there is no point.
@@jenniferpearce1052 Maybe "rule" wasn't the right word.
Robert lived in King's Landing, inside the Red Keep, and his men had unlimited access to all of King's Landing. No one in Robert's service ever came across any wildfire caches. At least to Ned's knowledge.
@@cmac3530 To be clear, I'm not saying Ned would believe Jaime on his word but but the proof is still there (on the plus side for Jaime, he even gets to taunt Ned about it). My point is not how quickly Ned would believe his story but that Ned is likely to accept those reasons (after checking) if Jaime told him bluntly enough to force him to investigate.
It's tragic that the one deed that truly defined him as a true Knight was twisted into a condemnation of him as the vilest betrayer ever. This series is something else
It's a twisted and tragic vision of a knight slaying a dragon to save a city.
@@JM-rc9xm oh my god, I never thought about this?? But also it makes so much sense, it's such a GRRM thing to do
Yup, bad timing tbh. Ned just happened to find Jaime sitting on the throne, but didn't witness the mad king screaming for everyone to be burned to death. :/
Also, i might be reading into it too much but jaime didnt cut himself on the throne did he?
@@thelegacyofgaming2928Jamie could’ve rode out and demanded his father stop the pillaging or protected the rest of the royal family from the Mountain. Instead he sat on the throne and did nothing. He might have felt the victim because he did one good thing and called it a day, but he deserved the contempt he got for his dereliction of duty. He saved the city just to abandon it.
George R.R. Martin had Stannis say it best.
“A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.”
To be fair to show Ned, the blow Arthur took from Howland was fatal, it was almost a mercy killing. And completely different context, if Jaime had killed Ned in the street there Robert would have arrested him.
I was gonna say this if you didn't.
I never viewed them together like that. They parallel each other so much.
It's crazy. They both betrayed a tyrannical king yet one is considered the most honorable man alive...the other the most honourless 🤣
@ReeceDee history is written by the victors. I love the Starks, but the 100% blind honor didn't give room for the shades of grey in real life.
Bit odd ned was so upset over Jamie killing a guy he was literally rebelling again...I never thought of that lol@@ReeceDee
@@elliecoffin616wasn’t Jaime already a piece of shit before all of this?
@@ReeceDeeDifference is the Starks didn’t massacre an entire royal family down to the babes, difference is they only had the choice of dying or trying to survive.
Jamie could’ve still kept atleast a shred of his honor by protecting Rhaegar’s children who had been personally entrusted to him by Rhaegar from the Mountain or riding out to demand his father stop the pillaging. He did none of that. He sat on the throne and waited for the children Rhaegar had entrusted to him were placed at the foot of the throne wrapped in Lannister colors.
Jamie even has a fever dream under a weirwood stump where Rhaegar and the fallen Kingsguard Arthur Dayne included curse him for failing to protect his wife and children. Even Jamie with his grandiose narcissism knows he deserves the contempt he gets, even if only subconsciously.
I think you're spot on. It's fun to see a more grounded and less magical vid from you. I was waiting for you to tell me how Jaime is actually the Night's King and also Qaith. And a horse.
Being a fan even after this many years can be still be rewarding! Thanks for that, it somehow never occurred to me in the fashion you just supposed. Great job :)
Those parallels you pointed out at the end literally blew my mind! 🤯😭 Gotta love long form videos like this.
There is one element of what winning the swordfight woul prove that you missed. In GoT, where trial by combat is a well established concept, winning a sword fight could actually prove you are just. Though I don't think this was author's intent (cool swordfight goes brr) I think it's a nice interpretation, on top of the simpler (and probably correct) explanation that it was about Jaime's ego.
It also somewhat comes down to the dichotomy of Stark and Lannister philosophy. Lannister is might makes right, Stark is honour makes right. Ned thinks he can win by being most just in the face of his enemies, Jaime knows he can win by leaving his enemies dead.
7:02 Love how that bunghole Ned neglects being a rebel himself like walder Frey said to Cat "I also remember swearing an oath to the crown too, which make you and your boy and those 20 thousands fools all rebels."
Really good analysis of this importance of this fight for Jamie! I had never thought about it that way before. But it certainly makes a lot of sense.
To be fair they came in to see Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne he definitely wasn’t helping his public image 😅
While his dad’s sacking the city
And dont forget tywin just pillage the city killing a lot of innocents, so he probably thought jaime was in this together and was all their plan the Lannister just betrayed and joined the war in the end. Ned thought to convenient
@@0cidd0 of course that part too I can’t believe I ain’t mention that like yeah Ned wasn’t the best political strategist but I think people are kind of unfair to the character😭
What? He really had to drop ass, and there was no porcelain throne nearby. Don't judge him.
Literally, with a massacred royal family at his feet wrapped in Lannister colors. He could’ve tried to stop his father or protect the rest of the royal family. Instead he did nothing. I just can’t believe people try to make it seem like he’s a victim for the contempt he brought upon himself.
He literally has weirwood nightmares of Rhaegar cursing him for failing to protect his children and wife. Even Jamie subconsciously knows he deserves the hatred he gets.
Jaime is well aware that he is the better fighter, but it is about getting Ned's respect while simultaneously proving that he is a better man than him.
Without watching the video: Jaime wants a fight with Ned over Ser Arthur Dayne. All of Westeros knows the story of the Tower of Joy.
I've always wondered how important the detail that Jamie was sitting on the Iron Throne was. Jamie seems to think Ned was judging him based on the dead king, but it was more than that, wasn't it? Lannister banners were up, the dead Targaryen children were wrapped in Lannister colours, and there Jamie is sitting on the throne. Jamie looked terrible in that position, of course Ned was judgemental.
The mundane version is that Ned disapproves of the Lannister opportunism and baby-killing in general, and Jamie seems very untrustworthy by sitting on the throne. I mean I've read Jamie's thoughts and even I don't fully understand what he was thinking by sitting there.
The fun version I entertain sometimes is that Ned knows a bit about Raegar's prophecy, and something about evil deeds by a Lannister/lion on the iron throne is included in the prophecy, so Ned is very deeply concerned by the sight... even though the prophecy was actually referring to Cersei.
Exactly this. The only way Jamie could’ve seen himself as the victim was because of his rampant narcissism. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne personally entrusted the protection of his children and the King to him. He failed tremendously at both. Aerys is understandable enough, but what happened to Elia And Rhaegar’s children is unjustifiable. He sat on the throne and did nothing until they were placed at his feet wrapped in Lannister colors
Jamie had a fever dream under a Weirwood stump where Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne curse him for failing to protect them. Even Jamie subconsciously knows he deserves the contempt he’s created for himself. He’s simply too egotistical to admit it to himself so he needed to put the blame on Ned.
I think Jamie doesn't believe that Ned killed sir Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy with skill-honor (he likely didn't). I don't think it's about Jamie proving himself to be the best so much as proving Ned is a liar
How absurd
People don't know about the Tower of Joy unless they read the books. People in world don't know about it.
@@jenniferpearce1052no, it’s publicly known that Ned killed Sir Arthur Dayne somehow, he returned Dawn to house Dayne after all and there would have to be SOME explanation for what happened to a member of the King’s Guard.
i felt the same way after going back and watching it
@@Slender_Man_186It wasn't just one either, I believe it was 3 kingsguard.
I think a big difference here is also psychological. Jaime seeks validation for his actions (and we could go into why, because of Tywin and Cersei and so on). But the very need to seek validation is what creates the disdain from Ned's eyes. The Starks bear their duty. When Ned breaks his duty, he does so and bears it without seeking approval. He bears it and accepts what comes with the dishonor. And that is the difference between the two men. It is not that Ned cannot conceive of breaking a vow, or doing something dishonorable. It is that he believes you accept the consequences of that decision. Ned is willing to take the black and be branded a traitor, because he believes there are more important things than honour. However he would never try and seek validation for his actions to another, like Jaime Lannister, and this is why when he tries to appeal to Ned, Ned shows disdain. He expects a true kingsguard to accept the consequences of his actions. I actually think that Jaime starts to learn this lesson throughout the story after he loses his hand. I love their comparison, because they are similar in many ways. And different in interesting ones.
Pretty cool 😎
You did great man 👍
The show may have lacked the story-in-a-story complexity and the deeper use of symbolism, but there were some truly great moments, and the first scene between Tywin and Jamie was one of them.
Amazing videos Ser! Every time I think that you won't top your last video you go ahead and do it again that's outstanding!
That pic of Sean bean holding ice is always hilariously Ned thuggin out fo' da gram.
Please don't drag ASOIAF down to ebonics level.
@@bollockjohnson6156racist much?
@@syn9669crying is free
@@syn9669 Damn, I didn't know expecting someone to speak proper English when it's their native tongue was racist.
@@kaminsod4077it is proper english
Ned & Jaime only have a 3 year age difference. During Robert's Rebellion Jaime was 16 & Ned 19. It wasn't really a man judging a teen but another teen
Here's the hole in Jaime's narrative about how Ned found him sitting on the throne, while not shown in all its grandeur in the show the book version of the Iron Throne is massive not just a fancy chair but a huge mound of misshapened swords built into a half dozen stairs as well as the throne seat itself , so he would have had to climb up to the seat not exactly the actions of a man who was simply exhausted whether physically, emotionally, or spiritually.
it's remarkable how much more time efficient it is to have all of this depth portrayed on screen. It would take chapters and chapters to portray this depth in text and only 10-20 minutes of screen time. Really unfortunate this masterpiece was destroyed in the later seasons, it could've been something great.
How was Eddard executing Will a “bad choice”? It was all really par-for-the-course. I understand Will was fleeing a supernatural boogie man, but he fled from the far north, over the wall, and past his sworn duty. He could have stopped at Castle Black, but he didn’t.
I don't think it is unreasonable of Ned to dismiss will/the deserter. Come on, every time someone runs from the wall and claims the Others scared them off you're going to launch an investigation?
If Ned Stark is about to kill you, tell him you saw the others and you'll have at least the trip to the wall to try and escape. Neddard would become a laughing stock.
If you saw Rattleshirt or the Thenns you could easily think they are Others.
@@mr.sa7anserv606 in the show yes, not in the books
@@RickyT15I mean Lord of Bones is still yanno. Wearing a bunch of bones. I could see someone thinking he was a type of Fae like the Others if they crossed his path. There are Fae that collect bones. The Toothfairy for example.
great video as always michael! always excited to see what you make next!
You know I like the idea of recapturing as much of the good from the show as possible. It was fun while it lasted to share a phenom with everyone superbowl style but now its an ecosystem of real fans.
At the end of the day Jamie is a sister-banging, attempted child murder... I think Ned's instincts of Jamie were correct.
Kinslayer too he killed his cousin.
Jaime had a very specific reason for not killing Ned and it had nothing to do with honor. Ned specifically states kill me and your brother is as good as dead. Ned on the other hand, killed Arthur Dayne as an act of mercy. Had nothing again to do with honor. Either he could leave Arthur to bleed out or he could put him out of his misery much like you do for an animal with a serious injury.
awesome video bro can’t believe you don’t have more subs
Ned gave Arthur a mercy kill out of a sense of honor. The backstab was fatal. There was no recovery possible.
Had Jamie executed Ned there, Tyrion would be killed, and Robert would prob send Jamie to the Wall, minimum. I don't see Jamie as having a sense if honor in not killing Ned. It was a sense of self preservation.
16:30 Well, one was stabbed in the leg (granted, in that time, it might have been deadly still) and the other one got stabbed THROUGH THE SPINE, NECK, AND THROAT so Ned basically mercy-killed Ser Arthur, it's not like he could feed him some bread and call it a day Video-Game style.
Also, the situation was quite different, Ned was trying to save and free his sister, it was a clear war and he knew, alive Arthur was a big threat to his goal, while Jaime needed Ned to be alive, he had a numerical superiority and just went with the play. I am sure, that if Ned had the opportunity, he would have restrained from killing Jaime, so the stakes from both sides were much lower.
Whats most tragic about Jamie's charater is that he IS one of the best people we get to see a POV of in the show. He is constantly being miss understood. He is trying to be a better person all the time. you can see the struggle he has every time he says something snappy. The only evil thing he did in the books was pushing Bran, and he had a very good reason to do so and he was not happy about it all (un like in the show that they made him smile through it)
Ned not telling people he didn't defeat Dayne in single combat is the most dishonorable thing he did in the show/books
That's series canon, Hopefully the books Will Tello us what really happened
Basically he took the approach that he would neither confirm or deny the claim that he killed Dayne in single combat. Neither him or howland reed ever actually talked about what happened at the tower of joy so people just assumed the ward of the north did it instead of his subordinate from the bog.
They were at war fool
The way I looked at Ned's judgement of Jaime is that he stopped the Mad King (swapping sides) immediately before he'd have lost. If Jaime turned for noble purposes, why didn't he stop Aerys before he killed Ned's family?
That's a very shrewd analysis and I like it. Jaime probably tells himself and others that he was stopping the mass murder of millions, but most of all Jaime realised that the mad kings plot would have killed Jaime too, so there's definitely some self preservation at play here. If not for self preservation he was aware that his father and family were inside kings landing too. In either case he places himself or his family above his vows as a kingsguard. In that reflection he realises that he could not bring himself to act with the chivalry or courage that he admires in Ser Arthur Dayne. Jaime probably hated Ned because he saw him as a righteous hypocrite, Ned too threw out his vows when he engages in open rebellion, and he knows that which Ned refuses to acknowledge, that sometimes are moments where you are forced to choose family over the honourable thing. Towards the end of Ned's life, he's almost forced into the same position, to go against the crown which he has pledged his fealty to and his branded treasonous because of it.
I have no idea why you have so little subscribers, your theories on ASoIaF are so on point!
So few*
@@robertinogochev3682 I can't be always correct. I am no Mannis.
You make a great point... I just subbed to his channel because of this comment.
Ned was too prideful, sometimes not in a honored way and sometimes in a very naive way (which madenhim die). Jon was a perfect Stark because he was honored as Ned but open to changes and open to help the north people
Ned's honor that he got taught by Jon limits him a lot. he makes stupid moves because of it. i liked the Starks of old, they didn't value honor that high.
@16:30 it wasnt the exact same situation. after killing Arthur they can save the hostage and leave, while killing Ned could result in war with the north and tyrions execution.
jamie punchin that guy was one my fav moments too❤
Someone said in the comment section of another video ( I think from the Fandome ? ) that Jaime might be realizing that Ned isn't up to Arthur Dayne's standards , as he's fighting him , and is probably finding out that something isn't adding up about Stark beating Dayne.
Might have been my comment I’ve said similar Things on other videos. Just before the Lannister guard wounds Ned it seems like Jamie has a disappointed look on his face. He’s likely realizing that Ned isn’t in his (or Arthur Dayne’s) level in swordplay. So I think he knows there’s no way Ned beat Dayne in a one on one fight.
To be fair Ned never said it was one on one.
@@jacklang3314and Ned’s older now and who knows how much he’s been practicing
I like that Jaime is so frustrated that Ned makes a judgement of him for being dishonorable, although he thought he was doing the right thing. Then when one of his guys stabs Ned in the back of the leg, thinking he is doing the right thing, Jaime literally punches him in the face for being dishonorable.
Awesome. Never would have put that much stock into that scene
The fact is Jamie was SCARED SHITLESS of Ned. Then and now.
Back then, just one look from his stone-grey eyes was enough to chase him off the throne that he had so brazenly sat on. I mean, what reason did he have to sit on the throne? If killing kings is so "tiring", then he could have flopped down on the floor or sat on one of the seven steps that lead up to it, but not on the damn thing itself. What did he expect? Sitting on the throne is a statement that can easily be misunderstood, especially while his Father held a slaughterfest outside. Even a boy of 16 could have guessed that this might be a bad joke.
And later it becomes clear that Ned defeated Jamie's idol and role model in a duel, who was considered invincible until then (to be fair, we don't know what happened and hopefully never will, because it's too funny to keep him and all his defenders guessing). That's probably why he trained so hard to become the best swordsman in Westeros. He knows he didn't became part of the Kingsguard because of his skills, but because the Aerys wanted to rob and mock his father (which worked - Jamie will never be the heir to anything). And he's still fearfull of Ned. Why? Because why else would he face Ned, Jory, Heward and Wyl with thirty men from his guard? Is he trying to compensate for a lack of balls or skills? He's trying to avenge his idol to some extent and wants to make it clear to himself that he doesn't fear Ned, wich he does.
It's so ridiculous. Later in his dream he thinks he sees Ned's ghost and bawls out like a child how much he doesn't fear him, lol. Yes, keep lying to yourself, little man. We know the truth. But the Lannisters aren't that into the truth anyway...
Jamie has issues with honor that effect his confidence and self esteem. He saw the world in one way, with the naïveté of youth, and learned the harsh realities. He doesn’t fear death or battle with anyone, this is obvious from reading his POV chapters. His character development after he loses his hand is all about reconciling his youthful arrogance and disillusionment with the realities of the shit reputation he has and the shitty world he lives in.
Hes not afraid lol, average stark fanboy comment right here
@@666Kacastarkcels are seething rn
I like this better then the books. This is a good scene and good analysis
When you hear "time traveling Bran did it" in a theory video....
And have to throw up in your mouth a little
Very good video bro
Jaime doesn’t want to prove that he’s the best you totally missed it. Jaime knows how good Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selma were, he knows that Ned didn’t beat him in a duel, beating him easily will show his lack of skill and prove he killed the man dishonorably
I've never read the books but wow that is the best explanation for this
1:41 - it's definitely a time traveling foetus. Anyway, must go. Glimbus awaits. Tyrek away boy.
lmfao 0:45 is outrageous!
He doesnt even have to invoke the wildfire thing to redeem himself to Ned, just "yeah he told me to kill my father, here we are"
It's because Ned killed Arthur Dayne, the man who knighted Jamie. This is why it's a big deal in the show when Ned doesn't kill Arthur Dayne, he loses to Dayne, and it is Howland Reed who stabs Dayne in the back. It shatters the Myth of Ned Stark as a great swordsman. It's also why he doesn't fight in duels and doesn't want people to know what he can do: Because he cannot live up to the reputation of the man who bested Arthur Dayne. He's a fighter, but he's just not at that calibre.
If you are experiencing the story for the first time I think the book version has some extra merits. It adds more hype for when Ned and Jaime might fight in the future. The problem is that never happens. So it's good that the show lets us see them fight--or even let's us see Ned fight at all for that matter. And yeah having them fight is so good for Jaime's character.
16:55 although there were smart phones and internet in that time period - there were still plenty of witnesses common folk and Kings Guard and Jaime killing Ned and flogging it as a pure kill might've been questioned and he absolutely wouldn't want that. Dane's death was done minus an audience so as long as Reed kept this mouth shut about the truth - it could be spun in anyway required.
11:57 that sounds like jon Jones
Jaime was the realest most loyal person in this whole show. He is the GOAT of TV history! He deserves his flowers. Give him his 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
Good foookin video!!
They're like, one or two years apart age wise...
Id like to say i love the fact that even though the one thing jaime values most(aside from cersi) being the best warrior, against his worst enemy(fickle, his foil, and his nick name maker) who also imprisoned his brother is taken away from him. he still doesn't kill the henchman who took away his opportunity of lifetime even though he's supposed to be a evilish villain who would normally kill his henchman but doesn't
Jamie just wanted to see if he was actually as good as he thought was (himself)-What better way than to challenge and maybe beat the established Ned. Ned let him think he was good but not for long-Once Ned quit toying w/him and put his game face on it was over for Jamie and Jamie knew it-u could see the look on his face when he realized he had bit off more than he could chew. His man saved his life by stabbing Ned in the leg-or so the man thought because I don't think Ned would have killed him, just taught him a lesson and, to Jamie, that may have been worse than death.
That's such a good character study from just one tv scene.
Thank you for this vid
Shot in the dark, Ned killed his idol Ser Arthur Dayne and Jaime needed to prove himself that he was better/avenge Arthur
Excellent video
I think the thing that gets overlooked about ned. (Probably because we dont get his viewpoint early on in his life) is that Ned is a hard man who has seen some shit. Like in his kids eyes hes a very good moral compass, so we the reader see him as inherently good. But ned is a very hard man.
13:10 not like either would've entered the Melee, He can care less about ned's sword play which is why in the source material he doesn't even bother to get off his horse.....
Situations are similar, but not the same. Ned still had a chance to save Lyanna, but only by getting through Dayne. Jaime knew killing Ned was Tyrion’s death sentence. Both did what was necessary to save their sibling at the time, which arguably proves their honor is equal in standing, considering they both made the best choice for their scenarios.
I think it’s occam’s razor for the deserter he probably thought that he was afraid of wildlings or just ran away. It’s not like the nights watch was reporting other sightings. FYI I’m only a show watcher but that’s my interpretation but I see what you mean Ned will follow honor even if it harms him or potentially other people. Also from what I think I’ve heard the lanisters switched sides basically at the last second they could instead of fighting for the king and their oath.
Holy crap I haven’t read the first book in forever and Ned didn’t get into a fight with Jaime in the book I think the fight was a great improvement
Thanks for this explanation and info...never thought of it that deep before. Just thought he wanted to get back at ned for judging him.
We wouldn't have a story if Ned had embraced Jamie for avenging his brother and father.. Jamie is like a gun fighter that just has to find out just how good the other gun fighter is...
The Jamie Ned dynamic changes after the tower of joy...
I've always wondered why Ned didn't tell Cat about Jon's parentage after he knew he could just her...
I think a crucial part of dialogue you’re missing is when Ned goes on to say “you served him well, when serving was safe.” Ned would have respected what Jamie did had he done it earlier when it actually might’ve cost his something, but saved someone else.
Good job
10:07 that’s how you see it? In my head I’m picturing me and thousands of veterans picking up a rifle and performing a functions check mindlessly before we walk out to conclude bussiness. 😂. But imagine a Navy Seal, or Ranger, or MARSOC, like a bad MF’er being like oh dammit Bobby needs me. Except we have rifles. Or like a Doc Holliday. Just because you can win a duel doesn’t mean you HAVE to. Basically, Ned is a professional warrior. It’s not a game to him, it’s life or death, training secrets and all. It’s very militant.
One thing I don’t see many people talk about when talking about honorable ned is that he was only honorable to cover up the dishonor of him hiding Jon snow and not telling anyone he truth about what truly caused the rebellion. It probably eats him up that he can’t tell anyone due to the promise he made so he makes up for it in other ways. Sorry I’m not well with words but I think you get my point lol
I do wonder how things would have went if Tywin did actually try and take the Iron Throne for House Lannister in a double-betrayal type of situation.
Imagine a younger Ned and a less experienced Jaime going at it in front of the Iron Throne.
For the tv show, I thought it would have been great if in season 1, Jaime tells Ned that he doesn't believe he actually beat Dayne. Then in season 6 we see he didn't.
It’s ambiguously phrased but I thought that when Ser Arthur Dayne fought the Smiling Knight and offered to let him pick a new sword that he actually gave him his sword at the Smiling Knights request
Jaime secretly had a lot of respect (maybe even fear) for Ned Stark and cared deeply about what Ned thought of him. Jaime holds Ned’s conflicting views in very high esteem and this gets under Jaime’s skin big time.
Ned Stark is an extremely proud man. Ned has a ton of charisma and belief in himself and values, but no arrogance. He is a major follower of rules and laws, yet is a very relaxed kind of guy. Most people would call Ned a rigid tight ass and boy scout, but Ned is so chill and confident with himself that people think he’s usually in the right and thus respect him. He’s as solid as they come.
I think the main reason wasn't due to how Ned treated him, otherwise he would have killed Ned, he's toying with him.
I think he wanted to clarify Ned hadn't defeated his idol in combat. He wanted to know if Ned was the living legend was portrayed to be... He soon finds out he's not.
So you got "scared horse" out of that amazing book moment, so you just skimmed through it
Jamie admitted to his father it bothers him. After tywin asks doesn't it bother you. He says " Of course it bothers me"
1:40 this horse is Tyrek Lannister
6:15 what if… Ned rode north instead of south?
This is show only stuff, but George was an integral part of the show in this era. Maybe this was his chance of publishing this scene both ways.
Crannogmen are known to fight with tridents & nets, so Howland Rees may have stabbed Arthur Dayne from afar or thrown a net on him, both of which would have hampered his ability to fight with a sword.
I haven't seen the video and I know it's because Jamie wants to prove himself against the one who "supposedly" defeated the Sword of Dawn, Arthur Dayne. Also The disdain that Ned has always shown Jamie upon finding him in the throne room with his sword still bloody from the king's blood.
How did the deserter make it from beyond the wall to winterfell territory? Did he just go through the main gate then run away? Or go around- which if he did, he would find himself in others land more than starks
This was great if you know the backstory that the show doesn't tell you at all.
Ned was absolutely right about Jamie because he didn't kill the mad king for honour but to mainly save his father and saving the city was a byproduct that Jamie convinced himself was the main reason as ned said was a reason to help him sleep at night because while Jamie wasn't the dishonourable villain everyone thought he was but that doesn't make him the honourable hero either
While the fight made for better TV viewing with a similar outcome as in the books, the problem is having Ned and Jamie cross swords and for Ned to hold his own. Even if Jamie just wanted revenge for the capture of Tyrion and the kill some Stark men without slewing Eddard, having them come to blows directly completely changes that dynamic. Jamie at this time is probably the best sword in the realm, if he crosses swords with somebody he'd likely to make short work of them. Blood would have been up on both sides, especially Ned after seeing his men killed. If they came to direct blows he would have wanted Jamie dead, perhaps Jamie could have wounded him if he kept his composure to ensure Tyrions safety, But when does Jamie at this stage of the story ever do anything that's not rash. Throwing Bran out the window, this attack, Whispering Wood, his pride snd ego would have gotten the better of him and probably would have killed Ned. Its not until he loses his hand and his time with Brienne we see his redemption arc start to unfold.
Ser Jaime didn't scare Ned's horse, he rode away before the fighting even started 3:14
The reason that in the show Jamie wanted to fight Ned was that he knew that he "defeated" Arthur Dayne who was the greatest swordsman to ever live. Honor and curiosity dictated that he fight and best Ned by his own hand.
It’s like poetry, it rhymes with
Love the refrence to chess, it kinda resembles Magnus and Kasparov
I find it funny that Ned judged Jaime for stabbing Aerys in the back
like he didn't killed Arthur Dayne while Arthur was on his knees ...
on his back from the front on their knees to the side killing is killing
i think that kinda like Jaime justified his pain Ned's personality is also doing the same as Jaime and branding other types of killing dishonorable and dissing people for their "bad" actions while not confessing or acknowledging his own
in a way he has less moral righteousness than Jaime
but then again Jaime does his own sister and pushed a kid from a castletop
what's funny is that Jaime would probably judge Ned in a worse way if he knew the disgraceful way in wich Ned killed his childhood idol
Because of the legend of him defeating Sir Aurther Dane!
there is another side of why jaime did not explain himself to stark. he is kingsguard to his bones. which means he wont devulge the secrets and private matters of king (even though murdered and deposed) to the outsider, which clearly ned is. his vows forbid him to do so.
16:00 totally disagree, entirely different scenarios, arthur dayne would fight with no legs like the knight in monty python