I think my sister is the longest living (and thriving ) pancreatic cancer survivor in the states, she had a Wipple surgery in 2005. Our times are in His hands.
@@kevingreen1476 Keller sounds a lot like Wilson here. They diagnose the problem almost identically. They just disagree on the solution (though Keller doesn't even seem aware that there are a multitude of Christian Nationalist positions and that Wilson's notion creates a fair amount of neutrality).
As someone who joined the American Anglican church about 6 six years ago, I'll confirm what Keller said about the division between the "mainline" Episcopal/Anglican Church of England and Anglican churches in America, Africa and Asia, which comprise the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide. Representatives of those churches will convene an international conference in Kigali, Rwanda, this summer, and it's likely they will declare the the Archbishop of Canterbury and the CofE have no authority over churches outside of Britain. The split is because of disagreements over the human sexuality issues, with the CofE moving toward endorsing gay "marriage." FWIW, the Anglican church is growing everywhere outside of Britain, apparently because it has mostly held to orthodox, traditional teachings.
I find it both funny and odd the logical correlation made between “growth” and “orthodoxy”….. as if the largest churches prove the most historical commitment to Christ. We would actually think the opposite, since the early Christian communities were by and large critiques of power, pre-Constantine. By that continued logic, Christian Nationalism (which seems to be growing) is Orthodox! Keller rightly critiques this movement, but because he can’t seem to grant any real value to mainline churches, the logical disconnect is glaring.
@@jpielemeierpianist I'm not entirely sure I understand your comment, but will note the "growth" in orthodox Anglican churches is in itself a challenge to power and wealth. The CofE and others -- Trinity Wall Street comes to mind -- have used their wealth and "grants" as a way to suppress orthodox dissension and subjugate African churches to their rule. There also seems to be a bit of racial condescension in the mix. It is going to take great moral courage for many of those churches to go against the agenda of the large entities like CofE; it may be an existential decision as far as their physical building are concerned.
@J. Pielemeier, pianist, when you describe inherent value to the old mainline, do you mean as indelible cultural institutions OR as being unfairly mischaracterized theologically? I think many would have an issue ignoring the doctrinal decline of those bodies regarding general, historical orthodoxy... but in terms of their value as institutions of cultural consciousness, the absense of which is felt as a gaping hole of identity loss... That is underdeveloped as a thesis.
I feel sorry for many pastors. I believe that many bring issues on themselves by thinking more of themselves and their politics then the church and God....... But churches (boards, elders, etc) today have moved to become a business, political movement, social influencer and so much more. Pastors are caught in the mess whether they want to be or not and at the same time many people don't want that so are pulling back.
What an eye opening conversation, I have seen so many people leave the church because they cannot find a majority that believe like then and they just watch programs on you-tube. Somehow God has kept us in the battle for truth and unity....
This world's politics divides and diverts attention from the preaching of the gospel. Coming to faith in Christ enables good works and reforms communities without a single act of law.
Hmm... really?! Coming to faith in Christ solves all worldly problems? Did you hear a saying a decade or so ago that goes like this: Half of the world's population is Christian, and yet, it is precisely that half that is at war and killing one another.
My old church seats 700 people. Back in the early 1980s it had at least 500 people in the seats every Sunday. Today they get around 120 people on a good Sunday. We can see rising secularism and anti-intellectualism in evangelical churches. However there is also something missing in current evangelical churches. They do not reflect what is happening in the lives of modern Christians.
Tim Keller has helped the Church immensely by explaining things in such a way that we can begin to address them more effectively. It’s easy to act wrongly or be paralyzed by confusion when you only have a vague notion of what is going on.
The problem is that evangelicals do quite poorly at carrying out the commandments spelled out in the sermon on the mount. And their morals are only one notch above their unbelieving neighbors. I my be generalizing but I’m really not that far from the truth here.
@DerKirchenhocker. Two things to point out: 1. Most "Evangelicals" are evangelical in name only. Many of those who genuinely believe have morals exponentially above their unbelieving neighbors. 2. Their unbelieving neighbors live in what has only recently become a post-Christian culture, and their beliefs and actions are still permeated by the remnants of Christian culture. These will disintegrate along and along, and we will see the barbarians come out of the woodwork.
Do we want Theocracy? I’m not so sure, but we are all feeling the weight and negative impact of liberal democracy. May God give us wisdom and strength to persevere and follow His ways.
Why is there interruption towards the end of Carey Neiuwhof's and Tim Keller's video with an advertisement. It would have been nice to hear the last few minutes of this conversation.
The most conservative Christians I know are the ones most engaged with the culture. I just really have no idea what Keller is talking about on this point. Plus, as far as the academy is concerned, isn't also fairly established that secularism has ruled the universities for well over 100 years now? That is an uncontroversial fact. Moreover, there is another reason that "white" Evangelicalism is failing, there has been a sustained, explicit attack against its beliefs, both metaphysical and moral, since the 18th century, which around the 1950's turned into a sustained cultural attack. This has to be taken into account as well, does it not?
The most “conservative” Christian’s I know have gotten their entire worldview essentially from Fox News. They’re so entrenched in culture wars and politics that they completely lose sight of the gospel. Many of them have made an idol out of guns and trump. American Christian’s have absolutely shredded the credibility of their witness and the gospel by aligning themselves with a man that stands in direct opposition to everything Christ stands for, only to gain temporary power. It’s very heartbreaking. The roots go deeper than that, but this is overwhelmingly what I see.
Great interview, and great insights. It reminds me of some points Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson made regarding the Moral Majority of the 1980s in their book Blinded By Might. Much of American evangelical Christianity was chasing political power, instead of carrying out the mission of the Church. Dr. Keller's insights show that the Moral Majority was merely the then-current iteration of a much larger and older issue. To the extent the church is fighting cultural and moral battles more than it is preaching the gospel and making disciples, it is putting righteousness before regeneration.
False dichotomy. The church can do both preach the Gospel and fight the immorality of the day… in fact, when the church preaches repentance - a necessary theme to accept the Gospel - that’s exactly what happens.
Couldn't agree more. Although christians can (and arguably should) engage in politics, the church risks "selling its birth-right" when it demands its place at the political table. I would argue this is exactly what happened in American Evangelicalism due to the "moral majority" movement/mindset.
Keller's description of the problem of the vacuum that liberal democracy leaves behind is quite good though; the vacuum that it leaves behind has been filled by soft Marxism (of the Gramscian version), which has worked its way through the institutions quite thoroughly. I too wonder if a Christian nationalism or Catholic integralism is the answer? Rusty Reno has suggested a kind of civic deism, which seems roughly correct, but almost impossible at this point to make real. It is a hard problem.
I think that when the religion tries to dominate the state, you end up with power hungry people faking virtue. When the state tries to dominate the church, you end up with a religion that just serves the powers that be at the moment. Jesus could have promoted either model but instead he spoke of living in an other worldly kingdom while living life in this world. In the world but not of it. The reason that America worked originally is that it was secular but very few of the people were secular. Everyone had their own religion.
@@digglerdsrecordings9680 Good observations, but we are also called to participate in the culture in which we live. In order to do that, there has to be some constructive vision for how to live together in society (i.e., how to be the "body politic"). There are better and worse societies, we can make that kind of evaluation if we believe there are gradations of the good, and that all is not relative. Is a Christian nation a better nation than say an Islamic one, or a Hinduistic one, or an abjectly atheistic one? It would seem that the answer is yes, even if that Christian nation winds up having the flaws that you mention above.
@@anthonycostello3457 Singapore and Taiwan show that you can construct healthy liberal democracies moulded by Confucian values where there is a sense of respect for responsible governance.
@@Magnulus76 As a Taiwanese-Canadian, I beg to differ. Yes, Taiwan is a vibrant democracy with plenty of freedoms. However, responsible governance and the rule of law (or even the belief in the rule of law) is sorely lacking. So, when you have democracy and freedoms but you don't couple it with responsibility and civic duty, what you get is something pretty close to anarchy.
Really interesting. Food for thought. Christian conflict pist Reformation opened the door for Luberal Democracy and Liberal Democracy led to secularism and pluralism thereby weakening Liberal Democracy as the basic Christian consensus in the west broke down. This led to the rise of postmodernism which led to mutually exclusive piwer groups including identity politics in which progressives have had the upper hand which has led to White American nationalism and extreme polarization which is leading to totalitarianism. In this we see the collapse of the Christian witness and the demise of western civilization. Richard Rohr said, no civilization can survive if it turns against and hates its own religion. Fascinating.
Was Jesus just about getting himself to heaven? Seems to me that focusing on getting myself to heaven is rather selfish, denying the testimony of Christ's life and teachings.
A couple I know went to the same church for 30 years. They listened to a lot of sermons, but they didn't engage in mutual ministry and so the Body of Christ didn't grow. They admit they wasted 30 years in church just listening to the same pastor and not being allowed to contribute. They left and they will start a house assembly.
Great points. Yet, while anti-intellectualism is a problem, I suspect intellectualism is a more crippling issue: our love of knowledge, degrees etc without a matching, consistent application of that knowledge. Evangelical churches are packed with consumers of very good information delivered by very qualified preachers, but do not obey the Word so brilliantly exegeted. They are not disciples.
Rationalism and higher critical conjectures have indeed done more damage than those who are less interested in the depths of knowledge. Not everyone is called to acquire large quantities of knowledge, but all are called to obey.
My least favorite aspect of Keller as evidenced in this interview is his trite dismissal of what he calls “mainline Protestantism,” without any nuance or explanation. It’s lazy for a great intellect as he. It’s simply untrue that “orthodoxy” is absent in Lutheran, Methodist, Church of Christ, Episcopalian, and other denominations in America (anymore than it is in Presbyterian). If he was more open to dialogue with these folks, his message would go farther. I have recently been attending an Episcopal Church, where every week we recite the Apostles’ Creed, read Scriptures aloud, and celebrate the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist- He who was, is, and is to come.
If “mainline Protestantism” had, as a whole, been fruitful you might have a point, but since the results are PAINFULLY obvious, it perhaps wasn’t lazy on his part. Reciting and professing belief in orthodox Christian belief are not the same as truly believing in and following Christ first…. Shalom!
@@rogerrumer2558 where is your evidence of “unfruitfulness”? On the contrary, I can easily point to by name a thousand soup kitchens, homeless shelters, outreaches to abuse survivors, campus ministries, and other organizations instituted by these churches. This is fruitfulness, if defined as abiding Christ’s commands. However, I guess in your view (and apparently that of Keller’s), the simple love of one man for another man can negate all of that! Pax Christi
@@jpielemeierpianist Yes, sir, it can. It shows that mainline Protestantism no longer follows Scripture, which is Christianity's raison d'etre. If the Bible is merely the witness of mankind as to our experience of God, then the "message," such as it is, can morph into just about anything. Adultery is fine. Premarital sex is fine. Divorce is fine. Radical feminism is fine. Pedophilia is fine. Bestiality is fine. Polyamory is fine. Often, essential beliefs--Creation, the Fall, the Passover, Christ's miracles, Christ's atoning death, and even his Resurrection--are jettisoned. What you have left is a wonderful social service organization. But it is not a church.
I don't think the gun issue should be part of this committee's time. The focus of this committee should be on the assignation attempt and the failure of the secret service to prevent it.
Keller's whole interview starts out without defining "Evangelical." But no distinction between those who adhere to the historic orthodox confessions vs. evangelical lite that Keller tries to co-opt. Then he talks about how Evangelicals are Republicans rather than describing them as Bible believing conservatives who have no other place to go than to the Republican party. Then the smugness about how there are far more Episcopalians and Methodists in Africa than in USA and that they aren't liberals. What he doesn't say is just how conservative they are in Africa. Then comes the seven Evangelical straw men all predicated on a sloppy Evangelical definition along with outlier examples. He sums his straw men up with boiling them down to moralism, which to the contrary, has always been the essence of the liberal church (see Machen) and the pietism of those who prefer to call themselves Evangelicals. Then he goes on to tackle race. Being a son of the South, Keller doesn't acknowledge the fact that the South was much culturally Christian than personally Christian. His take on the present failure of liberal democracy is insightful even though he has no solution to offer at present.
@Howard Hilliard I concur with your insight. Keller invalidly lumps Evangelicals and Fundamentalists together, and then equates a respectable sense of morality with moralism...and a reasonable skepticism of modern critical thought with anti-intellectualism.
The "plurality of opinions," has always existed, even in Ancient Greece. The question is which worldview or ideology gains hegemony. That is the fatal flaw with Classical Liberalism though, in refraining from adjudicating about which pre-political ideas are better or worse for the nation. But, it is from those pre-political ideas that we get our public morality. Right now we have no public morality, it is a free for all. One or the other pre-political ideology has to rise to a hegemonic position in order for a public morality to settle in. Liberalism doesn't provide its own moral system, so it has to be a religious source that provides the answer to public morality.
Excellent point - and a critical one b/c law is legislated morality. "Classical Liberalism" allowed for the pre-political morals of a widely-shared Judeo/Christian worldview to inform the laws of our nation. If this core pre-political worldview is not widely-shared, then chaos ensues (which is what we are witnessing in American culture now).
RADICAL OBSERVATION - Sometimes God wants you to concretely assist a sufferer rather than merely pray out loud at the sufferer, with lots of words, in public, and in detail, asking God alone to assist the sufferer.
Anti-intellectualism and anti-institutionalism ( DIY ) are HUGE problems in American evangelicalism. As are inculturation and nationalism. Amen. If it happens to become known in your evangelical church that you read Kierkegaard and Descartes, you will learn about "Christian cancellation". You will be nicely shunnes.
We need a Biblical sound society. Not a free for all goes. We need to conform to Christ likeness. Evil is evil. Wickedness is wickedness. Righteousness is righteousness.
I don’t know or anything in the New Testament that advocates for slavery based on any race. The abolitionists appealed to many verses in the New Testament to advocate for the ending of slavery worldwide.
That’s good. Your church must have insulated itself from platforming right-wing politics and mega church attention, popularity seeking. I wish more churches would do that.
@@cherylyunedwards He is for reparations. To pay people who have never been slaves to be paid by people who have never had slaves. Lots of our tax dollars have gone to support black children where mama didn't know where the baby daddy was and a lot of crime is committed by young black males. We have spent $$$$$ on prisons, jails, and vandalism repairs and security cameras.
@@jlions9016 Still a very odd word unless it it is say referring to something like the Roman Catholic Church. In that case just a very meaningless statement , maybe trying to be too intellectual.
@@brucew646 Tim’s a globalist. He was “woke” about 3 decades before being woke went mainstream… and that was a couple years before everyone realized it is rooted in Marxist critical race ideology…
Bummer, I thought this guy was worth finding... partnering with the woke "he gets us" group and then not pressing Keller to repent of his heretical teachings before he dies - which is laegely responsible for the "decline we are seeing today"... There are so many solid teachers out there who actually own the consequences of their errors, it doesn't seem like I'll need to consume content from this channel for anything other than opposition research...
@@TheLiterateLyoness - All the complaints I’ve seen ab T.K. Seem to be along the lines of, “He’s not mean enough to ‘the bad guys.’” or “He doesn’t publicly support Trump.” IDK: I can be super mean to the church’s enemies but I certainly don’t consider that to be a character attribute - I wish I could be as challenging but also as even-keel & peacefully whimsical as Tim is.
Sorry guys but I stopped listening after the massive list of Evangelicalisms' faults. Seriously? Like a list of 10 things wrong? I have appreciated Keller at different times over the years but I am surprised to hear the bashing. What's next, another Andy Stanley hit vid? How about we work to reverse this trend of Christian self hatred and get back to loving God and each other. We are all in a battle!
The evangelical church is correct about most important things. However, it needs to drop being dogmatic about the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)
He has given over to this world and politics, not focused on the cross of Christ which wholly defines Heaven and Hell. Nothing but a bunch of equivocating double speak. Jesus as God and Man came to die for sin, the very thing Keller focuses on as cultural differences, in which we should come together. The cross is the division. Heaven or Hell. Has he ever said it.
Thanks for letting Tim Keller speak without interrupting. Wisdom needs time to unfold.
Rest in peace, Tim. Your wisdom will continue to bless us.
This is why we will miss Tim Keller. May God raise up more prophetic voices atuned to the pulse of Christ.
I think my sister is the longest living (and thriving ) pancreatic cancer survivor in the states, she had a Wipple surgery in 2005. Our times are in His hands.
I’m praying that one day Jordan Peterson and Timothy Keller have a conversation. 🙏🏼
100% agree. With Paul Vanderklay as the host.
Throw Doug Wilson in there for fun. It might help overcome false perceptions of each others' views.
@@kevingreen1476 Keller sounds a lot like Wilson here. They diagnose the problem almost identically. They just disagree on the solution (though Keller doesn't even seem aware that there are a multitude of Christian Nationalist positions and that Wilson's notion creates a fair amount of neutrality).
I’ve thought about that so many time!
As someone who joined the American Anglican church about 6 six years ago, I'll confirm what Keller said about the division between the "mainline" Episcopal/Anglican Church of England and Anglican churches in America, Africa and Asia, which comprise the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide. Representatives of those churches will convene an international conference in Kigali, Rwanda, this summer, and it's likely they will declare the the Archbishop of Canterbury and the CofE have no authority over churches outside of Britain. The split is because of disagreements over the human sexuality issues, with the CofE moving toward endorsing gay "marriage."
FWIW, the Anglican church is growing everywhere outside of Britain, apparently because it has mostly held to orthodox, traditional teachings.
I find it both funny and odd the logical correlation made between “growth” and “orthodoxy”….. as if the largest churches prove the most historical commitment to Christ. We would actually think the opposite, since the early Christian communities were by and large critiques of power, pre-Constantine. By that continued logic, Christian Nationalism (which seems to be growing) is Orthodox! Keller rightly critiques this movement, but because he can’t seem to grant any real value to mainline churches, the logical disconnect is glaring.
@@jpielemeierpianist I'm not entirely sure I understand your comment, but will note the "growth" in orthodox Anglican churches is in itself a challenge to power and wealth. The CofE and others -- Trinity Wall Street comes to mind -- have used their wealth and "grants" as a way to suppress orthodox dissension and subjugate African churches to their rule. There also seems to be a bit of racial condescension in the mix. It is going to take great moral courage for many of those churches to go against the agenda of the large entities like CofE; it may be an existential decision as far as their physical building are concerned.
@J. Pielemeier, pianist, when you describe inherent value to the old mainline, do you mean as indelible cultural institutions OR as being unfairly mischaracterized theologically?
I think many would have an issue ignoring the doctrinal decline of those bodies regarding general, historical orthodoxy... but in terms of their value as institutions of cultural consciousness, the absense of which is felt as a gaping hole of identity loss... That is underdeveloped as a thesis.
I feel sorry for many pastors. I believe that many bring issues on themselves by thinking more of themselves and their politics then the church and God....... But churches (boards, elders, etc) today have moved to become a business, political movement, social influencer and so much more.
Pastors are caught in the mess whether they want to be or not and at the same time many people don't want that so are pulling back.
I don't feel sorry for pastors who are simply reaping what they've sown...
@@adamjohns78 That is exactly why I wrote "many"
Prayers for my GCTS classmate Tim. Bw3
What an eye opening conversation, I have seen so many people leave the church because they cannot find a majority that
believe like then and they just watch programs on you-tube. Somehow God has kept us in the battle for truth and unity....
Such a sincere balanced view from an intelligent mind, seeing and articulating so understandingly.
This world's politics divides and diverts attention from the preaching of the gospel. Coming to faith in Christ enables good works and reforms communities without a single act of law.
Hmm... really?! Coming to faith in Christ solves all worldly problems? Did you hear a saying a decade or so ago that goes like this: Half of the world's population is Christian, and yet, it is precisely that half that is at war and killing one another.
Watered down Christianity is not able to stand against the pressures of the secular world, with most divisions fragmenting into secularism.
Thanks Carey. Programmatic hard secularism sums it up pretty well..
My old church seats 700 people. Back in the early 1980s it had at least 500 people in the seats every Sunday. Today they get around 120 people on a good Sunday. We can see rising secularism and anti-intellectualism in evangelical churches. However there is also something missing in current evangelical churches. They do not reflect what is happening in the lives of modern Christians.
Tim Keller has helped the Church immensely by explaining things in
such a way that we can begin to address them more effectively. It’s easy to act wrongly or be paralyzed by confusion when you only have a vague notion of what is going on.
Must have been Opposite Day when this comment was added…🧐
@@adamjohns78 then your rudeness could be considered a compliment?
GREAT interview!
So, where's the pdf link to Keller's longer exploration of this topic?
The problem is that evangelicals do quite poorly at carrying out the commandments spelled out in the sermon on the mount. And their morals are only one notch above their unbelieving neighbors. I my be generalizing but I’m really not that far from the truth here.
@DerKirchenhocker. Two things to point out: 1. Most "Evangelicals" are evangelical in name only. Many of those who genuinely believe have morals exponentially above their unbelieving neighbors. 2. Their unbelieving neighbors live in what has only recently become a post-Christian culture, and their beliefs and actions are still permeated by the remnants of Christian culture. These will disintegrate along and along, and we will see the barbarians come out of the woodwork.
Do we want Theocracy?
I’m not so sure, but we are all feeling the weight and negative impact of liberal democracy.
May God give us wisdom and strength to persevere and follow His ways.
Why is there interruption towards the end of Carey Neiuwhof's and Tim Keller's video with an advertisement. It would have been nice to hear the last few minutes of this conversation.
Unfortunately, we had tech issues with the file.
Such a great interview, thank you Carey!
Glad you enjoyed it!
The most conservative Christians I know are the ones most engaged with the culture. I just really have no idea what Keller is talking about on this point. Plus, as far as the academy is concerned, isn't also fairly established that secularism has ruled the universities for well over 100 years now? That is an uncontroversial fact. Moreover, there is another reason that "white" Evangelicalism is failing, there has been a sustained, explicit attack against its beliefs, both metaphysical and moral, since the 18th century, which around the 1950's turned into a sustained cultural attack. This has to be taken into account as well, does it not?
On target!
Well said
hear hear
The most “conservative” Christian’s I know have gotten their entire worldview essentially from Fox News. They’re so entrenched in culture wars and politics that they completely lose sight of the gospel. Many of them have made an idol out of guns and trump. American Christian’s have absolutely shredded the credibility of their witness and the gospel by aligning themselves with a man that stands in direct opposition to everything Christ stands for, only to gain temporary power. It’s very heartbreaking. The roots go deeper than that, but this is overwhelmingly what I see.
Terrific.
Yes, extremes of either red or blue are inherently distracting and even idolatrous.
Great interview, and great insights. It reminds me of some points Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson made regarding the Moral Majority of the 1980s in their book Blinded By Might. Much of American evangelical Christianity was chasing political power, instead of carrying out the mission of the Church. Dr. Keller's insights show that the Moral Majority was merely the then-current iteration of a much larger and older issue.
To the extent the church is fighting cultural and moral battles more than it is preaching the gospel and making disciples, it is putting righteousness before regeneration.
well said
False dichotomy.
The church can do both preach the Gospel and fight the immorality of the day… in fact, when the church preaches repentance - a necessary theme to accept the Gospel - that’s exactly what happens.
@@adamjohns78 churches job was never to fight immorality of the day. If you can find such examples ??? It’s a distraction from the great commission…
Couldn't agree more. Although christians can (and arguably should) engage in politics, the church risks "selling its birth-right" when it demands its place at the political table. I would argue this is exactly what happened in American Evangelicalism due to the "moral majority" movement/mindset.
@JBM101 Was Jesus not crucified because with His life and teachings He confronted the morality and power of the Pharisees and the Romans
The Evangelical Church in Africa and South America are the only hope for the Evangelical church in America. We need them to evangelize to us.
I disagreement they are spreading the same garbage that's destroying American churches.
So realistic! Believe Tim left this world too early! :(
Keller's description of the problem of the vacuum that liberal democracy leaves behind is quite good though; the vacuum that it leaves behind has been filled by soft Marxism (of the Gramscian version), which has worked its way through the institutions quite thoroughly. I too wonder if a Christian nationalism or Catholic integralism is the answer? Rusty Reno has suggested a kind of civic deism, which seems roughly correct, but almost impossible at this point to make real. It is a hard problem.
I think that when the religion tries to dominate the state, you end up with power hungry people faking virtue. When the state tries to dominate the church, you end up with a religion that just serves the powers that be at the moment. Jesus could have promoted either model but instead he spoke of living in an other worldly kingdom while living life in this world. In the world but not of it.
The reason that America worked originally is that it was secular but very few of the people were secular. Everyone had their own religion.
@@digglerdsrecordings9680 Good observations, but we are also called to participate in the culture in which we live. In order to do that, there has to be some constructive vision for how to live together in society (i.e., how to be the "body politic"). There are better and worse societies, we can make that kind of evaluation if we believe there are gradations of the good, and that all is not relative. Is a Christian nation a better nation than say an Islamic one, or a Hinduistic one, or an abjectly atheistic one? It would seem that the answer is yes, even if that Christian nation winds up having the flaws that you mention above.
@@anthonycostello3457 Singapore and Taiwan show that you can construct healthy liberal democracies moulded by Confucian values where there is a sense of respect for responsible governance.
@@Magnulus76 As a Taiwanese-Canadian, I beg to differ. Yes, Taiwan is a vibrant democracy with plenty of freedoms. However, responsible governance and the rule of law (or even the belief in the rule of law) is sorely lacking. So, when you have democracy and freedoms but you don't couple it with responsibility and civic duty, what you get is something pretty close to anarchy.
@anthonycostello3457 say yes to the unity of the Catholic morality. non-Catholics must also say no to abortion. Until they do, God judges America.
he had the same books as i do. woah
Really interesting. Food for thought. Christian conflict pist Reformation opened the door for Luberal Democracy and Liberal Democracy led to secularism and pluralism thereby weakening Liberal Democracy as the basic Christian consensus in the west broke down. This led to the rise of postmodernism which led to mutually exclusive piwer groups including identity politics in which progressives have had the upper hand which has led to White American nationalism and extreme polarization which is leading to totalitarianism. In this we see the collapse of the Christian witness and the demise of western civilization. Richard Rohr said, no civilization can survive if it turns against and hates its own religion. Fascinating.
Was Jesus just about getting himself to heaven? Seems to me that focusing on getting myself to heaven is rather selfish, denying the testimony of Christ's life and teachings.
What is "he gets us"?
A couple I know went to the same church for 30 years. They listened to a lot of sermons, but they didn't engage in mutual ministry and so the Body of Christ didn't grow. They admit they wasted 30 years in church just listening to the same pastor and not being allowed to contribute. They left and they will start a house assembly.
Great points. Yet, while anti-intellectualism is a problem, I suspect intellectualism is a more crippling issue: our love of knowledge, degrees etc without a matching, consistent application of that knowledge. Evangelical churches are packed with consumers of very good information delivered by very qualified preachers, but do not obey the Word so brilliantly exegeted. They are not disciples.
Rationalism and higher critical conjectures have indeed done more damage than those who are less interested in the depths of knowledge. Not everyone is called to acquire large quantities of knowledge, but all are called to obey.
Great point
My least favorite aspect of Keller as evidenced in this interview is his trite dismissal of what he calls “mainline Protestantism,” without any nuance or explanation. It’s lazy for a great intellect as he. It’s simply untrue that “orthodoxy” is absent in Lutheran, Methodist, Church of Christ, Episcopalian, and other denominations in America (anymore than it is in Presbyterian). If he was more open to dialogue with these folks, his message would go farther. I have recently been attending an Episcopal Church, where every week we recite the Apostles’ Creed, read Scriptures aloud, and celebrate the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist- He who was, is, and is to come.
If “mainline Protestantism” had, as a whole, been fruitful you might have a point, but since the results are PAINFULLY obvious, it perhaps wasn’t lazy on his part. Reciting and professing belief in orthodox Christian belief are not the same as truly believing in and following Christ first…. Shalom!
@@rogerrumer2558 where is your evidence of “unfruitfulness”? On the contrary, I can easily point to by name a thousand soup kitchens, homeless shelters, outreaches to abuse survivors, campus ministries, and other organizations instituted by these churches. This is fruitfulness, if defined as abiding Christ’s commands. However, I guess in your view (and apparently that of Keller’s), the simple love of one man for another man can negate all of that! Pax Christi
@@jpielemeierpianist Yes, sir, it can. It shows that mainline Protestantism no longer follows Scripture, which is Christianity's raison d'etre. If the Bible is merely the witness of mankind as to our experience of God, then the "message," such as it is, can morph into just about anything. Adultery is fine. Premarital sex is fine. Divorce is fine. Radical feminism is fine. Pedophilia is fine. Bestiality is fine. Polyamory is fine. Often, essential beliefs--Creation, the Fall, the Passover, Christ's miracles, Christ's atoning death, and even his Resurrection--are jettisoned. What you have left is a wonderful social service organization. But it is not a church.
Was it really because of technical issues we cant get to see the end of this interview or did Pastor Keller reveal too much mind-opening truth? 😆 🤔
You can hear the ending of the interview on Apple or Spotify. Unfortunately, we lost some video.
we could all use more books....!
We need the most important one - the bible.
I don't think the gun issue should be part of this committee's time. The focus of this committee should be on the assignation attempt and the failure of the secret service to prevent it.
Keller's whole interview starts out without defining "Evangelical." But no distinction between those who adhere to the historic orthodox confessions vs. evangelical lite that Keller tries to co-opt. Then he talks about how Evangelicals are Republicans rather than describing them as Bible believing conservatives who have no other place to go than to the Republican party. Then the smugness about how there are far more Episcopalians and Methodists in Africa than in USA and that they aren't liberals. What he doesn't say is just how conservative they are in Africa. Then comes the seven Evangelical straw men all predicated on a sloppy Evangelical definition along with outlier examples. He sums his straw men up with boiling them down to moralism, which to the contrary, has always been the essence of the liberal church (see Machen) and the pietism of those who prefer to call themselves Evangelicals. Then he goes on to tackle race. Being a son of the South, Keller doesn't acknowledge the fact that the South was much culturally Christian than personally Christian.
His take on the present failure of liberal democracy is insightful even though he has no solution to offer at present.
@Howard Hilliard I concur with your insight. Keller invalidly lumps Evangelicals and Fundamentalists together, and then equates a respectable sense of morality with moralism...and a reasonable skepticism of modern critical thought with anti-intellectualism.
That's incorrect. He says that evangelicals have not jettisoned orthodox beliefs. And that he has more hope for renewal among evangelicals.
@@ryanbrasher3134 You don't understand the breath of belief among those who are labeled "evangelical.
He😊 20:07
The "plurality of opinions," has always existed, even in Ancient Greece. The question is which worldview or ideology gains hegemony. That is the fatal flaw with Classical Liberalism though, in refraining from adjudicating about which pre-political ideas are better or worse for the nation. But, it is from those pre-political ideas that we get our public morality. Right now we have no public morality, it is a free for all. One or the other pre-political ideology has to rise to a hegemonic position in order for a public morality to settle in. Liberalism doesn't provide its own moral system, so it has to be a religious source that provides the answer to public morality.
Excellent point - and a critical one b/c law is legislated morality. "Classical Liberalism" allowed for the pre-political morals of a widely-shared Judeo/Christian worldview to inform the laws of our nation. If this core pre-political worldview is not widely-shared, then chaos ensues (which is what we are witnessing in American culture now).
Such a good word!
RADICAL OBSERVATION - Sometimes God wants you to concretely assist a sufferer rather than merely pray out loud at the sufferer, with lots of words, in public, and in detail, asking God alone to assist the sufferer.
Anti-intellectualism and anti-institutionalism ( DIY ) are HUGE problems in American evangelicalism. As are inculturation and nationalism. Amen. If it happens to become known in your evangelical church that you read Kierkegaard and Descartes, you will learn about "Christian cancellation". You will be nicely shunnes.
We need a Biblical sound society. Not a free for all goes. We need to conform to Christ likeness. Evil is evil. Wickedness is wickedness. Righteousness is righteousness.
I'm curious to know where the Bible makes the point that slavery should not be based on race.
I don’t know or anything in the New Testament that advocates for slavery based on any race. The abolitionists appealed to many verses in the New Testament to advocate for the ending of slavery worldwide.
I attend a small evangelical church, and it has nothing to do with Keller's description.
That’s good. Your church must have insulated itself from platforming right-wing politics and mega church attention, popularity seeking. I wish more churches would do that.
I would never have guessed Keller to be a democrat. Learn something new everyday.
You’re wrong
@@hberrysc3517 Nope. He has said some very woke things but I still respect him.
@@annchovey2089 Please define "woke." Please give examples of his wokeness.
@@cherylyunedwards He is for reparations. To pay people who have never been slaves to be paid by people who have never had slaves. Lots of our tax dollars have gone to support black children where mama didn't know where the baby daddy was and a lot of crime is committed by young black males. We have spent $$$$$ on prisons, jails, and vandalism repairs and security cameras.
Tim, what is the " World Church " ? When I google it I get the Worldwide Church of God founded by the Adventist Church.
Listening in context he is referring to the worldwide church - ie not the particular focus of the US church.
@@jlions9016 Still a very odd word unless it it is say referring to something like the Roman Catholic Church. In that case just a very meaningless statement , maybe trying to be too intellectual.
@@brucew646 Tim’s a globalist. He was “woke” about 3 decades before being woke went mainstream… and that was a couple years before everyone realized it is rooted in Marxist critical race ideology…
the dying cries of evangelicalism. .... we love to see it folks
This music is not helping you at all
Bummer, I thought this guy was worth finding... partnering with the woke "he gets us" group and then not pressing Keller to repent of his heretical teachings before he dies - which is laegely responsible for the "decline we are seeing today"...
There are so many solid teachers out there who actually own the consequences of their errors, it doesn't seem like I'll need to consume content from this channel for anything other than opposition research...
Well said!
Totally agree. Sad isn’t it?
What are the heretical teachings to which you refer?
@@TheLiterateLyoness - All the complaints I’ve seen ab T.K. Seem to be along the lines of, “He’s not mean enough to ‘the bad guys.’” or “He doesn’t publicly support Trump.”
IDK: I can be super mean to the church’s enemies but I certainly don’t consider that to be a character attribute - I wish I could be as challenging but also as even-keel & peacefully whimsical as Tim is.
@@christychapin8357 Nice comment-Maybe you on your way to the challenging/whimsical duality you seek. 🙃
@@USMC_Ministries "Well Said Adam Johns!" - Adam Johns.
Sorry guys but I stopped listening after the massive list of Evangelicalisms' faults. Seriously? Like a list of 10 things wrong? I have appreciated Keller at different times over the years but I am surprised to hear the bashing. What's next, another Andy Stanley hit vid? How about we work to reverse this trend of Christian self hatred and get back to loving God and each other. We are all in a battle!
I think it’s important to figure out what the issues are if we want to move forward. He’s dead on with every point in this video.
Was Keller even a Christian?
The evangelical church is correct about most important things. However, it needs to drop being dogmatic about the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)
He has given over to this world and politics, not focused on the cross of Christ which wholly defines Heaven and Hell. Nothing but a bunch of equivocating double speak. Jesus as God and Man came to die for sin, the very thing Keller focuses on as cultural differences, in which we should come together. The cross is the division. Heaven or Hell. Has he ever said it.