THAT was amazing, inspiring and challenging. thank you for letting him speak without interrupting his train of thought. I have some reading to do, old books to re-read, and new books to read. I am so thankful for this interview.
Starting at 13:50 through 19:58, he talks about how our culture today (2024) focuses on our identity, and how that focus enslaves people. I'd never thought about that, but it's an amazing insight. And as he's sharing it, he says, 'well, I've never thought about it...' He thinks ad communicates really well.
Good to see another interview with the late Tim Keller. I still remember that review on Yelp of Redeemer Presbyterian Church from some ten years ago. Nothing I've ever heard or read about Redeemer has ever been proven more accurate or cogent. Excerpts edited for brevity and clarity: 1/17/2011 I have been to Redeemer West side and East side services. I still go from time to time. I used to take part in several of the volunteer opportunities at Redeemer. First, I will start with the founding Pastor Tim Keller. Tim Keller's sermons are some of the most thought provoking you will ever hear in your life anywhere! He is also an author. I would go so far as to say that he is one of the great thinkers of our time. He is also a visionary in many ways. My husband and I regularly purchase and listen to his sermons. So why only 3 stars? Because a church is more than just a pastor. Now there is no perfect church. But there are some serious things lacking here: First of all, there is no prayer meeting or focus on corporate prayer for the entire church. The very basic part of the Christian faith that Jesus himself said with his own lips was Matthew 21:13. "It is written," He said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers." Prayer is just talking to God, it doesn't require any special talent, skill or training. So the lack of prayer at this church is very alarming to me. And I haven't heard anyone speak of repentance at Redeemer --- ever. Again, I have listened to hundreds of sermons and been to at least a hundred services both on the W est and East sides. The church ministries are called "ministries" but are run like any secular organization. Redeemer Presbyterian is run like a business, a well-oiled corporate machine, and not a church. The other 2 things which are cultural and not spiritual but are off-putting to me are: 1. Most of the members and regular visitors to Redeemer are transplants, not New Yorkers, so the church is a large city church but run like a small town church where there are very few native New Yorkers. It seems most of the members are not established in the city and are just passing through. 2. The other is that it seems the majority of the congregation is looking for a spouse, and very aggressively. When you walk in, the first thing people do is look at your hand for a ring, and then are bold enough to ask if it is a wedding ring. That experience is not unique to me, but to all of the guests I bring here. In addition, in any volunteer group I have been to, the small talk from both men and women centered around trying to find a spouse. Then the few married people were usually complaining about their marriages. The pastor knows about this, and does see it as a problem because he addresses it in his sermons. But people don't seem to listen. It is like they are all living in 1950's rural America. One other major problem I have with the church is that it is mostly white and Asian. I believe the reason is that the congregation ---- and this is not the pastoral team's fault --- seems to be focused on their careers and making money, and not on God at all. God is there to bless their agendas; this is how they seem to operate. I believe this is true for a few reasons. One, the culture of the church and focus of the congregation seems to be on Whites and Asians who make good money and have high-end careers, rather than on God. A huge basic tenet of the Christian faith is Death to Self. But at Redeemer, when you hear testimonies approved by the pastoral staff, they usually start with the person's professional credentials. I do not see any Death to Self there, but actually the opposite: It's "Look at what I can do for God because of my high income and education." It is not wrong to have a high income or education as a Christian. But the focus (at Redeemer) is wrong. So for these reasons, I think the church is best for those who are not Christians yet but are seekers of God, or those established in the faith already. It is not good in my opinion for the average believer looking for a home church. But by all means, purchase Tim Keller's sermons and do something that the congregation fails to do: Learn from his sermons. The church in my opinion is more intellectual than spiritual. end
Thank you for sharing this honest evaluation. I’ve never been to Redeemer and I share your opinion on TK You have given me food for thought not so much about Redeemer as about my own focus. Thanks again!
If we want to be able to lead the US community - and be a positive influence on its church - at the current turning point - we are going to have to find answers to the following two questions (which I have identified as a result of listening to the various Tim Keller interviews): 1. Prompted by the state of those on the right - who have according to Tim turned to moralism, separatism, individualism, dualism, anti-intellectualism, and anti-institutionalism - how do we intend to redirect those who are suspicious of the way in which people have corrupted institutions - who use ideas as weapons to defeat the best welfare of people - to God and his kingdom? And how do we do it in a manner which affirms as well as challenges these beliefs - how can it be done in a way that is reaching to the other person instead of merely throwing grenades at them? 2. Prompted by the state of those on the left - how do we intend to evangelise - with a mixture of affirmation and confrontation/challenge - those who believe that it’s okay to abort babies - and those who believe that man and woman - instead of mirroring Christ’s love for the church and the church’s right response - is a matter of self-definition? How is it possible to affirm the worldviews of people who have such beliefs - who believe lies - while challenging/confronting them? And again it will need to be grace - it will need to be love given - instead of demanding first that love be offered. Is there anything in the worldview of a person who believes untruths that can be affirmed - as part of affirming them as people? Is there anything in the choices of those who refuse to obey God's word - which can be affirmed? Yes in both cases. When we consider that sin is taking by force something that God would gladly give us in his time and his way it's clear that there is a way to view sinful behaviour in a way that affirms the sinner (while also confronting them). Tim Keller has departed - leaving us with questions to answer but not with answers to those questions. I believe that he has effectively done two things: - analysed the recent changes in culture (which have happened since he left pastoral ministry) - reminded us that gospel preaching - like the gospel - will always affirm and confront people’s worldview. What Tim hasn’t done is reveal how to reach the emerging culture - beyond stating that the issue is centred around identity now instead of around idols. While I won’t attempt to provide detailed answers let me put foward a broad principle - if our Christianity is Pharisaical (if our general pattern individually and as churches is to welcome God’s word without welcoming and relying on his presence - John 5:39) it will not be able to win those on the right who can only be redirected by Jesus present - made manifest (it instead reflects the attitudes of the right) - and if it is liberal (if our general pattern individually and as churches is to welcome God’s presence without welcoming his word - John 14:15) it will not be able to win those on the left - who can only be redirected by being shown how God’s way is superior - alone the way - our approach will instead reflect the attitudes of the left). God has allowed the world to head in a direction where if our Christianity is incomplete we won’t be able to prosper in the emerging climate. (This was no less true in previous times - although it might have APPEARED to be less true then). It's always been possible to transition a Pharisee from his secular Pharisaical framework to a 'Christian' framework - and to transition liberals in the same way, This is one way to APPEAR successful while not really creating real disciples (I believe that much of what has been considered to be growth in recent decades is those in leadership following the people in this way). We might be able to APPEAR to have succeeded for a while - especially if we locate ourselves in a part of the country which matches our faults. We may be able to run a church where we match the prejudices of the local people in order to get bums on seats - but if we do that we should expect the same people will do what they hae been doing to those who have been leading like this in recent decades - who haven't given them answers big enough to face the problems they face - they will turn on us and eat us alive.
I like your depiction of the left and the right needing to meet in the middle. We all have virtues and vices. I also agree with churches appearing to follow numeric growth at all costs. What would you see as a next step for churches to speak to both post-modernists and fundamentalists?
@@mtcstyle Here is some kind of attempt to answer your question - to explain what can be spoken and modelled to the two groups - focusing on the four key issues that Tim Keller points out divide the US - abortion, man and woman, justice, and caring for the poor. We have made it impossible to see clearly the heart of God behind his commands. Instead of actually RECEIVING God we instead have kept him distant - adopting what we think are his rules - living them out while remaining in the driver’s seat of our lives. To give an example of this consider the fact that a typical member of the first world church - when asked to explain in more than biological terms what a man is - or a woman is - has no answer. They can only tell you - if they have been a believer a while - what the bible says women shouldn’t do - and men should do. We are - to use an Old Testament analogy - living in the outer court. We don’t know God well enough to be able to convince people that he is absolutely good. If instead we had received God himself we would have come to understand important things - things which would help us to reach the current generation: - God - in commanding us to obey him in various ways - does not do so as part of asking us to sacrifice our own spiritual growth for the growth of others. Said another way God will NEVER seek to do something WITH us which isn’t a necessary part of what he is doing IN us - if instead our obedience is not supposed to be bread for ourselves that would be God showing favouritism (to those for whom we are supposed to sacrifice). And so we can point out to the person who seeks to abort a child - and those who support pro choice - that we can and must receive God’s will for our lives unreservedly knowing that God will NEVER ask us to commit ourselves to others (in this case to a child) in a way which will not be our own deliverance - our own salvation. (Although we will only find this out if we are all in for God). - We have given the impression that obedience to God is ultimately about giving God his due. When from God’s perspective this is not the ultimate end of obedience at all. God’s ultimate end is revealed in the fact that those saved will live eternally with him as Father - and with Jesus AS OUR BROTHER. How amazing is that! This is not the plan of a God whose expectation that we obey is motivated by keeping us in our place. This assurance is I believe grace to the man who imagines that pouring himself out for woman as husband - and to children as father - is ultimately a way to enslave himself. We can offer similar encouragement to women - that their submission to their husband exists only as long as their husband is obeying God - and therefore is actually nothing additional to their own personal obedience to God (except on neutral matters where men and women are required to trust that God’s best purpose can be achieved even when they don’t prefer the choice of their partner) - when submission is required it is only so that both man and wife will be led to freedom - released from obligation. In the relationship of the man and woman who submit to God everything related to service collapses into holy hedonism. Revealing to others that ultimately being man and woman is a path to freedom isn’t helped by the fact that currently the average American Christian leader - if asked to explain in theological terms what a man or a woman is - couldn’t answer the question. How can we know what God’s heart in relation to the sexes is if we cannot even define what it is to be one sex in any way at all! We will never in these circumstances come to work out what God’s good intention for marriage is - and similarly how good BIBLICAL singleness is - we cannot expect that we will be able to explain how these are better than anything the world offers. - We must point out to those who baulk at biblical teaching about justice that there are wrong ideas about what is and is not required from us as followers of God in respect of justice. Biblical justice does not ask us to provide compensation for wrongdoing done generations ago (how would we do that if we were required? - how would we determine who were victims and to what extent - and how would compensating their descendants be any kind of effective response to that injustice?) But this truth doesn’t erase the fact that being just as believers is a far reaching concept. To be just we must act justly not just in our personal choices but also ensure that justice is being done around us - including advocating for those who do not have a voice - see Proverbs 31:8-9). So then our task is to point out to the person who seems eager to minimise or erase these demands that the only result of denying people what is rightfully theirs is social disintegration - as proven by the state of the US compared to other countries who have not taken the same approach - this disintegration placing far greater burdens on both those wronged and those responding to wrongs than would otherwise have been the case. In countries which are active in behaving justly toward the poor their financial burden drops away towards nought - their financial burden - and other kinds of burden - in helping those who are not fairly compensated by ‘the system’ becoming so little work it is of little burden. Things have become so bad in the US that people imagine that relating rightly to those who have been oppressed - marginalised - is a task too great for any action to be taken - but this is wrong - God moves heaven and earth to work alongside those seeking to do right. So that is my question to the person resisting biblical teaching on justice - to ask them which approach they believe ultimately leads to freedom? Which approach they believe will see God working on our behalf. I acknowledge that the situation in the US is complicated by the fact that there are perfectly good reasons - in the light of the national debt - for taking the view that no more money should be spent - as there are for the absolute need for it to be spent when the poor have not been adequately helped enough (whether by government or by private aid) for decades. This is where citizens of the US - and those praying for them - must cry out to God for mercy - for a way forward. - And finally to the person on the right who refuses to provide for the poor I would point out the fact that our involvement with the poor is ultimately a blessing to us. It is because our greatest wealth is not in what our money buys us but in the God that we know - and when we look into the eyes of the poor we are reminded (in a way that is unique) of our need for this God. We realise that we are ourselves vulnerable - homeless in this world - in need of God at every turn. The poor are therefore a GIFT to us. This relationship between those who have and those who are without is a means by which each group can find its way into the presence of God. When the rich person - instead of considering themselves some kind of hero for helping the poor - instead gets insight from the poor person as to their true state before God - and when the poor person is reminded in looking at the rich person that we are each valuable enough to God for him to be attentive to ALL our needs - this will trigger revival in the church - as both those inside the church and outside will have irrefutable evidence - in seeing the selfish person instead behaving selflessly - that God must be alive - that he must himself be love.
Wonderful notes, but let me TBHH: While I've got a Master on Philosophy with a minor and a Thesis on Religious Philosophy doesn't translate on my wish to have philosophy or religious philosophy, theology or religious sciences in general to interest the vast majority of the masses. Simply the masses won't eat from that... And that won't feed many, other than those little few, and fewer ones by the day on the religious top posts and academic posts as well. Better for those to understand that and act accordingly. This gay debacle is a disgrace, from both sides of the battle, that interest NOBODY in real world outside the specific academic level associated with! No surprise the results... TBHH: People of today have the largest information access level of all human history! They also have the highest academic average levels of all human History and they have the highest average life expectancy ever in human history! The question of the poor or the sick? People will call the state social services, the doctors, psychologists and any other professionals at those fronts... Not the Priests, nor the religious academics!... Churches can help as they're called to... But help wouldn't be perceived as to be decisive on the above mentioned fields. Specialization is winning the world by the day. Priests are specialists on saving souls... Not on curing illnesses or addressing drug addiction effects or unemployment or anything on those fields. Your questions are legitimate, of course, especially within the current political US environment, but watch for the Churches themselves internally from the outside. The little gains from relatively fundamentalist groups are far outnumbered by huge departures from the mainstream. The younger the most likely to leave the Church. And Churches are currently full of sexual scandals as well. So: Is there a solution? I believe we have already reached non returning point for Churches. There is a slight opportunity hope, but that would require such an entirely different approach than the current religious war one we're witnessing these days which would go as follows: 1) Let civilian politics to the secular world, even if we don't agree with what is being decided. Secular politics is non of our business in Church. Supporting such a guy like Donald Trump is being part of the problem there in the US, isn't it? 2) Let human sexuality to the secular world to solve, even if we don't agree with what is being decided. You know: The Church has hardly failed on reaching high moral standard for even their own leaders, worsening that even more with a huge cover up of the predators, which is utterly unacceptable! Watch the RCC or the SBC... No moral authority now to reach any moral standards to anybody else. And as I use to say: My neighbors sexuality is none of my business. 3) Teach hope and positiveness to the people of today: Nobody wants a fear focused Church anymore. We have electrical points elsewhere. No need to stress light against darkness. We don't feel darkness anywhere else on the west, other than on our room when we go to sleep!... 4) Be graceful and tolerant with the ones whom disagree. You know: It's part of the positiveness we want from Churches to reach the world. Here in Europe some ecumenical Taizé Prayer experiences are having more people and personal impact that most separate denominational main Prayer Services. That's not occasional!... There could be some more, but for now that's it. Have a wonderful day!
@@nunagoras Hello. I know that the current climate is one in which the church is no longer seen as an authority. I know that people do not expect the church to have answers. However that's not relevant if there ARE answers which the church currently don't speak or model. Which is why I posted my two questions above - if the church has answers to those two questions- if it knows how to reach 'the left' and 'the right' in a way that is both challenging and affirming where each is right and possible - then the jury is still out (it is in my mind because I am not convinced that we know what will happen in the first world when we welcome both God's word and his Spirit. God isn't promising that our ministries will change the world if we aren't obedient in both of these ways. We cannot claim to be serious about both of these things unless it is obvious IN OUR PLANS that we consider obedience to have both of these dimensions. I remain confident in THE REAL GOSPEL - a gospel of holiness, justice, mercy, and grace. It isn't a gospel which can be learned only by reading the bible, or reading books, or going to bible college. As Jesus explains in James 1:22, John 17:7 and John 8:31 we don't find out that the truth is the truth until we SUBMIT to him - word and Spirit. We don't understand until then that it's the ANSWER for people - and WHY it is. Only THEN are we able to deliver others from darkness. Only then can we share the truth in a way that is wise to current mindsets and strongholds dominating the first world.The truth reaches a part of us nothing else can reach - a part which is hidden until the gospel awakens the hearer to its existence - but if the gospel hasn't led us to identify that part of ourselves - and allow God access to bring change - we cannot lead anyone else there.
I don't remember if it's this video or another one: Tim mentioned that the way to reach people is to get them to **want** the Gospel to be true, and then show them it **is** true. I've been outside institutional church for about 8 years now. In this time, I've learned some things about being on the outside looking in: - The church gives off an impression that they are better, holier than everyone else. - Churches seem more interested in telling people how they're wrong vs showing people how much value they have. - There is more freedom to exchange ideas outside the church. - It's lonely to be without a spiritual community. What do you think it would take for people to give the church another chance?
I think the only way we can be equal is in Christ Jesus. As humans, we can never create a fair and equitable society because of human nature. No one is without prejudice. No one has equal amounts of talent, and not all talents are equal. Not everyone has equal amounts of beauty. Intelligence, or perseverance. But there is plenty of opportunity in America for those who want to rise above their circumstances and and that is across all races. People come from all types of trauma and hardships to be successful but it is always through hard work. Those with less talent and less opportunity have to work harder to open doors but there are also many who squander their talents and opportunities. Success can have different meanings. Social Justice will not solve any of this. Socialism. Redistribution of wealth and a multitude of laws governing society will never create an equal and equitable society. Yet, we do all have equality in Christ. We’re all invited to the table. We can come to the cross and partake in the forgiveness of sins. Apart from forgiveness, redemption in Christ Jesus, we can never truly experience equality. The Bible holds us accountable as individuals for our behavior and call us, as individuals to care for our brothers and sisters in need, there are also morals and standards of personal behavior and accountability. Pouring money into social programs and Having a socialist government will not solve the ills of society. I wish I could know with certainty that Pastor Keller believed that because its not what I hear from his teachings. I think his way of dealing with the socialism encroaching upon the church was to embrace it.
I agree with Keller that politics has complicated Jesus’ main message…. Love God and our neighbors. American Christian culture focuses on anti socialism which I believe keeps people from doing the justice work that Jesus was all about. BEMA podcast and it’s in depth Bible Study has been eye opening!
Amen that Christians are equal in Christ this is true, meaning we’re all “holy enough” because we have Jesus Christ’s imputed righteousness. The world nonbelievers have Adam’s imputed sin-no true justice in that system. Romans 4:23-24👑
Currently through the first portion. One thing I see with institutional Christianity is what I perceive as a bit of intellectual and emotional arrogance surrounding its own culture. If God exists, He is the creator of all cultures, not just Jewish and Christian. I can't believe that God would leave billions of people without any insights or revelations. I wish Christianity would embrace a more ecumenical stance. See the good and wisdom in other traditions and take a more humble stance of, "You can speak into our lives and we can speak into yours. And together we can grow in understanding." This isn't limited to just Christianity. Especially in the West, there seems to be a lot of yelling over who's right. Maybe we're all a little right and a little wrong.
In the younger generation Christians, at least Catholics, Orthodox and what is called in US, Mainline Protestants, true ecumenism is becoming the trend that will push the leaderships in the next decades to come. Sadly for now this is the moment to the sexual wars. Let us see whom the heck is the most Biblical intolerant, sexist, anti-sex, or whatever else sex related may be... While the good news of the resurrection is sent to "2nd place"... No surprise Gen Z is leaving in droves!...
Christians are “holy enough” because we have Jesus Christ’s imputed righteousness. God has a Sovereign Will in our freewill choices to protect and draw us closer to Him-Romans 8:28 Romans 4:23-24👑
Please read the full book of romans from start to finish and see what Paul is trying to say to a Jewish and gentile audience and take them on the road to unity together . Blessings
Lot of interesting perspective - quite intellectual approach. Wise comment on blue /red approach! A. 16 comments? B. Pulpit mindset assuming & preaching things or ideas. Jesus is teacher: his teaching is bilateral, parable- & spiritual centric & extremely personal. ↔ direction. C. We're living in TED TALK culture so we must start the original teaching form. D. Adoption is keyword. This is the core of my ID as Christian. Righteousness is key. Guilt is not on the table for the lost... anymore. C. Cross is the true visdom of Gd. Our part in the sufferings? Comfort zone - as Mr Keller mentioned.. D. Catholic has no Christian Ethic - it's wrong. They have a pseudo Chr Ethic with strong human Ethic. Plus they have {wrong} priestly culture. Protestantism practically has no priestly culture. And this basic ID @ 1Pt 2:9 was not mentioned here. ??? E. Cities are difficult places. That's why we should start with places with human relationships. Thus we follow the apostles. The modern mega city has no much human relationship. The modern suburb is a sleeping town. But The nowaday countryside is filled with connections. Plus I'm Christian actor. We are acting. Not simply dealing with theories.
The Catholic Church is another gospel, teaching a believer how to not be Catholic isn’t a problem, if the focus is imitating Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:8-9 1 Timothy 2:5-7
I don't know how you could listen to Keller's sermons and come to the conclusion that he was a legalist. I'd encourage you to go to the Gospel in Life podcasts and listen to some samples.
Why does he incessantly talk about culture? He seems to worship it. I think the Bible talks little of it. I was taught how do you preach to a muslim..give him the gospel. How do you preach to a Hindu give him the gospel etc. Of course if you are over in India methods change for sure. I am not suggesting that. Just as even in this country southern people may differ from those in LA etc. But this constant parsing and talk of culture emphasis makes no sense to me. In the end Noone gets the gospel all you are doing is trying not to offend everyone. Oh I can't preach on that ever bcz someone might be offended. This is man centered gospel. Man centered not God centered. It's the foolishness of preaching the Gospel that saves people. It is the power of God that saves not the wisdom or so called wisdom of man. Then maybe all this culture worship will fall away. Man's cultures are rattled with sin. He seems to hate American culture. Do you think other cultures are superior that they arnt as well rattled with sin? Many of them have very few Christians in it ? How can that make a better culture?
Keller took a missionary approach to his ministry in NYC. You have to understand the mindset of the people you are seeking to reach if you are going to communicate the gospel in a way that they can understand. Look at how Paul's preaching methods differed in the Book of Acts when he preached to a Jewish audience, versus a pagan audience. The core of the gospel is unchanging, but how you make connections with your audience varies on the audience. That doesn't mean to change the message so you don't offend. Keller offended our self-righteous pride all the time! One of the key questions that missionaries deal with is "where do I begin?" when presenting the gospel. I'd encourage you to reread Acts with a missionary lens and see what insights the Lord shows you.
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I never met Tim. But I do really miss him...
Me too
Keller is one of the best teachers of the Gospel ever.
Indubitably ❤
He really is the “CS Lewis of our time”
THAT was amazing, inspiring and challenging. thank you for letting him speak without interrupting his train of thought. I have some reading to do, old books to re-read, and new books to read. I am so thankful for this interview.
TK is the Just the BEST TEACHER . You have introduced the gospel to me❤
Bless God and God bless you
Great interview Tim Kellers sermons impacted me more than any other growing up
Starting at 13:50 through 19:58, he talks about how our culture today (2024) focuses on our identity, and how that focus enslaves people. I'd never thought about that, but it's an amazing insight. And as he's sharing it, he says, 'well, I've never thought about it...'
He thinks ad communicates really well.
Thanks for sharing this
Christianity is the only identity that is received not achieved because of Jesus Christ.
Amen 🙏
Jesus is the only One Who comes looking for us. All the false religions have people trying to achieve salvation. You are right.
As an agnostic, there are only a few pastors that I respect and admire. I feel sad he has passed and he is missed
He's missed dearly
Excellent.
Thanks for listening
I thought this interview was very interesting. Thought provoking.
Thank you for interesting interview
Good to see another interview with the late Tim Keller.
I still remember that review on Yelp of Redeemer Presbyterian Church from some ten years ago. Nothing I've ever heard or read about Redeemer has ever been proven more accurate or cogent.
Excerpts edited for brevity and clarity:
1/17/2011
I have been to Redeemer West side and East side services. I still go from time to time. I used to take part in several of the volunteer opportunities at Redeemer. First, I will start with the founding Pastor Tim Keller. Tim Keller's sermons are some of the most thought provoking you will ever hear in your life anywhere! He is also an author. I would go so far as to say that he is one of the great thinkers of our time. He is also a visionary in many ways. My husband and I regularly purchase and listen to his sermons.
So why only 3 stars? Because a church is more than just a pastor.
Now there is no perfect church. But there are some serious things lacking here:
First of all, there is no prayer meeting or focus on corporate prayer for the entire church. The very basic part of the Christian faith that Jesus himself said with his own lips was Matthew 21:13. "It is written," He said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers."
Prayer is just talking to God, it doesn't require any special talent, skill or training. So the lack of prayer at this church is very alarming to me.
And I haven't heard anyone speak of repentance at Redeemer --- ever. Again, I have listened to hundreds of sermons and been to at least a hundred services both on the W est and East sides.
The church ministries are called "ministries" but are run like any secular organization.
Redeemer Presbyterian is run like a business, a well-oiled corporate machine, and not a church.
The other 2 things which are cultural and not spiritual but are off-putting to me are:
1. Most of the members and regular visitors to Redeemer are transplants, not New Yorkers, so the church is a large city church but run like a small town church where there are very few native New Yorkers. It seems most of the members are not established in the city and are just passing through.
2. The other is that it seems the majority of the congregation is looking for a spouse, and very aggressively. When you walk in, the first thing people do is look at your hand for a ring, and then are bold enough to ask if it is a wedding ring. That experience is not unique to me, but to all of the guests I bring here. In addition, in any volunteer group I have been to, the small talk from both men and women centered around trying to find a spouse. Then the few married people were usually complaining about their marriages. The pastor knows about this, and does see it as a problem because he addresses it in his sermons. But people don't seem to listen. It is like they are all living in 1950's rural America.
One other major problem I have with the church is that it is mostly white and Asian. I believe the reason is that the congregation ---- and this is not the pastoral team's fault --- seems to be focused on their careers and making money, and not on God at all. God is there to bless their agendas; this is how they seem to operate.
I believe this is true for a few reasons. One, the culture of the church and focus of the congregation seems to be on Whites and Asians who make good money and have high-end careers, rather than on God. A huge basic tenet of the Christian faith is Death to Self. But at Redeemer, when you hear testimonies approved by the pastoral staff, they usually start with the person's professional credentials. I do not see any Death to Self there, but actually the opposite: It's "Look at what I can do for God because of my high income and education." It is not wrong to have a high income or education as a Christian. But the focus (at Redeemer) is wrong.
So for these reasons, I think the church is best for those who are not Christians yet but are seekers of God, or those established in the faith already. It is not good in my opinion for the average believer looking for a home church. But by all means, purchase Tim Keller's sermons and do something that the congregation fails to do: Learn from his sermons. The church in my opinion is more intellectual than spiritual.
end
Thank you for sharing this honest evaluation.
I’ve never been to Redeemer and I share your opinion on TK
You have given me food for thought not so much about Redeemer as about my own focus.
Thanks again!
Thought you guys would enjoy this.
Thank you for this podcast! Great perspective and very insightful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I enjoyed this video and learned a great deal. What is David's last name? I'm not familiar with him. Thank you.
Kinnaman? The Barna owner?
If we want to be able to lead the US community - and be a positive influence on its church - at the current turning point - we are going to have to find answers to the following two questions (which I have identified as a result of listening to the various Tim Keller interviews):
1. Prompted by the state of those on the right - who have according to Tim turned to moralism, separatism, individualism, dualism, anti-intellectualism, and anti-institutionalism - how do we intend to redirect those who are suspicious of the way in which people have corrupted institutions - who use ideas as weapons to defeat the best welfare of people - to God and his kingdom? And how do we do it in a manner which affirms as well as challenges these beliefs - how can it be done in a way that is reaching to the other person instead of merely throwing grenades at them?
2. Prompted by the state of those on the left - how do we intend to evangelise - with a mixture of affirmation and confrontation/challenge - those who believe that it’s okay to abort babies - and those who believe that man and woman - instead of mirroring Christ’s love for the church and the church’s right response - is a matter of self-definition? How is it possible to affirm the worldviews of people who have such beliefs - who believe lies - while challenging/confronting them? And again it will need to be grace - it will need to be love given - instead of demanding first that love be offered.
Is there anything in the worldview of a person who believes untruths that can be affirmed - as part of affirming them as people? Is there anything in the choices of those who refuse to obey God's word - which can be affirmed? Yes in both cases. When we consider that sin is taking by force something that God would gladly give us in his time and his way it's clear that there is a way to view sinful behaviour in a way that affirms the sinner (while also confronting them).
Tim Keller has departed - leaving us with questions to answer but not with answers to those questions. I believe that he has effectively done two things:
- analysed the recent changes in culture (which have happened since he left pastoral ministry)
- reminded us that gospel preaching - like the gospel - will always affirm and confront people’s worldview.
What Tim hasn’t done is reveal how to reach the emerging culture - beyond stating that the issue is centred around identity now instead of around idols.
While I won’t attempt to provide detailed answers let me put foward a broad principle - if our Christianity is Pharisaical (if our general pattern individually and as churches is to welcome God’s word without welcoming and relying on his presence - John 5:39) it will not be able to win those on the right who can only be redirected by Jesus present - made manifest (it instead reflects the attitudes of the right) - and if it is liberal (if our general pattern individually and as churches is to welcome God’s presence without welcoming his word - John 14:15) it will not be able to win those on the left - who can only be redirected by being shown how God’s way is superior - alone the way - our approach will instead reflect the attitudes of the left).
God has allowed the world to head in a direction where if our Christianity is incomplete we won’t be able to prosper in the emerging climate. (This was no less true in previous times - although it might have APPEARED to be less true then). It's always been possible to transition a Pharisee from his secular Pharisaical framework to a 'Christian' framework - and to transition liberals in the same way, This is one way to APPEAR successful while not really creating real disciples (I believe that much of what has been considered to be growth in recent decades is those in leadership following the people in this way). We might be able to APPEAR to have succeeded for a while - especially if we locate ourselves in a part of the country which matches our faults. We may be able to run a church where we match the prejudices of the local people in order to get bums on seats - but if we do that we should expect the same people will do what they hae been doing to those who have been leading like this in recent decades - who haven't given them answers big enough to face the problems they face - they will turn on us and eat us alive.
I like your depiction of the left and the right needing to meet in the middle. We all have virtues and vices. I also agree with churches appearing to follow numeric growth at all costs.
What would you see as a next step for churches to speak to both post-modernists and fundamentalists?
@@mtcstyle Here is some kind of attempt to answer your question - to explain what can be spoken and modelled to the two groups - focusing on the four key issues that Tim Keller points out divide the US - abortion, man and woman, justice, and caring for the poor.
We have made it impossible to see clearly the heart of God behind his commands. Instead of actually RECEIVING God we instead have kept him distant - adopting what we think are his rules - living them out while remaining in the driver’s seat of our lives. To give an example of this consider the fact that a typical member of the first world church - when asked to explain in more than biological terms what a man is - or a woman is - has no answer. They can only tell you - if they have been a believer a while - what the bible says women shouldn’t do - and men should do. We are - to use an Old Testament analogy - living in the outer court. We don’t know God well enough to be able to convince people that he is absolutely good.
If instead we had received God himself we would have come to understand important things - things which would help us to reach the current generation:
- God - in commanding us to obey him in various ways - does not do so as part of asking us to sacrifice our own spiritual growth for the growth of others. Said another way God will NEVER seek to do something WITH us which isn’t a necessary part of what he is doing IN us - if instead our obedience is not supposed to be bread for ourselves that would be God showing favouritism (to those for whom we are supposed to sacrifice). And so we can point out to the person who seeks to abort a child - and those who support pro choice - that we can and must receive God’s will for our lives unreservedly knowing that God will NEVER ask us to commit ourselves to others (in this case to a child) in a way which will not be our own deliverance - our own salvation. (Although we will only find this out if we are all in for God).
- We have given the impression that obedience to God is ultimately about giving God his due. When from God’s perspective this is not the ultimate end of obedience at all. God’s ultimate end is revealed in the fact that those saved will live eternally with him as Father - and with Jesus AS OUR BROTHER. How amazing is that! This is not the plan of a God whose expectation that we obey is motivated by keeping us in our place. This assurance is I believe grace to the man who imagines that pouring himself out for woman as husband - and to children as father - is ultimately a way to enslave himself. We can offer similar encouragement to women - that their submission to their husband exists only as long as their husband is obeying God - and therefore is actually nothing additional to their own personal obedience to God (except on neutral matters where men and women are required to trust that God’s best purpose can be achieved even when they don’t prefer the choice of their partner) - when submission is required it is only so that both man and wife will be led to freedom - released from obligation. In the relationship of the man and woman who submit to God everything related to service collapses into holy hedonism.
Revealing to others that ultimately being man and woman is a path to freedom isn’t helped by the fact that currently the average American Christian leader - if asked to explain in theological terms what a man or a woman is - couldn’t answer the question. How can we know what God’s heart in relation to the sexes is if we cannot even define what it is to be one sex in any way at all! We will never in these circumstances come to work out what God’s good intention for marriage is - and similarly how good BIBLICAL singleness is - we cannot expect that we will be able to explain how these are better than anything the world offers.
- We must point out to those who baulk at biblical teaching about justice that there are wrong ideas about what is and is not required from us as followers of God in respect of justice. Biblical justice does not ask us to provide compensation for wrongdoing done generations ago (how would we do that if we were required? - how would we determine who were victims and to what extent - and how would compensating their descendants be any kind of effective response to that injustice?)
But this truth doesn’t erase the fact that being just as believers is a far reaching concept. To be just we must act justly not just in our personal choices but also ensure that justice is being done around us - including advocating for those who do not have a voice - see Proverbs 31:8-9). So then our task is to point out to the person who seems eager to minimise or erase these demands that the only result of denying people what is rightfully theirs is social disintegration - as proven by the state of the US compared to other countries who have not taken the same approach - this disintegration placing far greater burdens on both those wronged and those responding to wrongs than would otherwise have been the case. In countries which are active in behaving justly toward the poor their financial burden drops away towards nought - their financial burden - and other kinds of burden - in helping those who are not fairly compensated by ‘the system’ becoming so little work it is of little burden. Things have become so bad in the US that people imagine that relating rightly to those who have been oppressed - marginalised - is a task too great for any action to be taken - but this is wrong - God moves heaven and earth to work alongside those seeking to do right. So that is my question to the person resisting biblical teaching on justice - to ask them which approach they believe ultimately leads to freedom? Which approach they believe will see God working on our behalf.
I acknowledge that the situation in the US is complicated by the fact that there are perfectly good reasons - in the light of the national debt - for taking the view that no more money should be spent - as there are for the absolute need for it to be spent when the poor have not been adequately helped enough (whether by government or by private aid) for decades. This is where citizens of the US - and those praying for them - must cry out to God for mercy - for a way forward.
- And finally to the person on the right who refuses to provide for the poor I would point out the fact that our involvement with the poor is ultimately a blessing to us. It is because our greatest wealth is not in what our money buys us but in the God that we know - and when we look into the eyes of the poor we are reminded (in a way that is unique) of our need for this God. We realise that we are ourselves vulnerable - homeless in this world - in need of God at every turn. The poor are therefore a GIFT to us. This relationship between those who have and those who are without is a means by which each group can find its way into the presence of God. When the rich person - instead of considering themselves some kind of hero for helping the poor - instead gets insight from the poor person as to their true state before God - and when the poor person is reminded in looking at the rich person that we are each valuable enough to God for him to be attentive to ALL our needs - this will trigger revival in the church - as both those inside the church and outside will have irrefutable evidence - in seeing the selfish person instead behaving selflessly - that God must be alive - that he must himself be love.
Wonderful notes, but let me TBHH:
While I've got a Master on Philosophy with a minor and a Thesis on Religious Philosophy doesn't translate on my wish to have philosophy or religious philosophy, theology or religious sciences in general to interest the vast majority of the masses. Simply the masses won't eat from that... And that won't feed many, other than those little few, and fewer ones by the day on the religious top posts and academic posts as well. Better for those to understand that and act accordingly. This gay debacle is a disgrace, from both sides of the battle, that interest NOBODY in real world outside the specific academic level associated with! No surprise the results...
TBHH: People of today have the largest information access level of all human history! They also have the highest academic average levels of all human History and they have the highest average life expectancy ever in human history!
The question of the poor or the sick? People will call the state social services, the doctors, psychologists and any other professionals at those fronts... Not the Priests, nor the religious academics!... Churches can help as they're called to... But help wouldn't be perceived as to be decisive on the above mentioned fields. Specialization is winning the world by the day. Priests are specialists on saving souls... Not on curing illnesses or addressing drug addiction effects or unemployment or anything on those fields.
Your questions are legitimate, of course, especially within the current political US environment, but watch for the Churches themselves internally from the outside. The little gains from relatively fundamentalist groups are far outnumbered by huge departures from the mainstream. The younger the most likely to leave the Church. And Churches are currently full of sexual scandals as well.
So: Is there a solution? I believe we have already reached non returning point for Churches. There is a slight opportunity hope, but that would require such an entirely different approach than the current religious war one we're witnessing these days which would go as follows:
1) Let civilian politics to the secular world, even if we don't agree with what is being decided. Secular politics is non of our business in Church. Supporting such a guy like Donald Trump is being part of the problem there in the US, isn't it?
2) Let human sexuality to the secular world to solve, even if we don't agree with what is being decided. You know: The Church has hardly failed on reaching high moral standard for even their own leaders, worsening that even more with a huge cover up of the predators, which is utterly unacceptable! Watch the RCC or the SBC... No moral authority now to reach any moral standards to anybody else. And as I use to say: My neighbors sexuality is none of my business.
3) Teach hope and positiveness to the people of today: Nobody wants a fear focused Church anymore. We have electrical points elsewhere. No need to stress light against darkness. We don't feel darkness anywhere else on the west, other than on our room when we go to sleep!...
4) Be graceful and tolerant with the ones whom disagree. You know: It's part of the positiveness we want from Churches to reach the world. Here in Europe some ecumenical Taizé Prayer experiences are having more people and personal impact that most separate denominational main Prayer Services. That's not occasional!...
There could be some more, but for now that's it. Have a wonderful day!
@@nunagoras Hello. I know that the current climate is one in which the church is no longer seen as an authority. I know that people do not expect the church to have answers. However that's not relevant if there ARE answers which the church currently don't speak or model. Which is why I posted my two questions above - if the church has answers to those two questions- if it knows how to reach 'the left' and 'the right' in a way that is both challenging and affirming where each is right and possible - then the jury is still out (it is in my mind because I am not convinced that we know what will happen in the first world when we welcome both God's word and his Spirit. God isn't promising that our ministries will change the world if we aren't obedient in both of these ways. We cannot claim to be serious about both of these things unless it is obvious IN OUR PLANS that we consider obedience to have both of these dimensions.
I remain confident in THE REAL GOSPEL - a gospel of holiness, justice, mercy, and grace. It isn't a gospel which can be learned only by reading the bible, or reading books, or going to bible college. As Jesus explains in James 1:22, John 17:7 and John 8:31 we don't find out that the truth is the truth until we SUBMIT to him - word and Spirit. We don't understand until then that it's the ANSWER for people - and WHY it is. Only THEN are we able to deliver others from darkness. Only then can we share the truth in a way that is wise to current mindsets and strongholds dominating the first world.The truth reaches a part of us nothing else can reach - a part which is hidden until the gospel awakens the hearer to its existence - but if the gospel hasn't led us to identify that part of ourselves - and allow God access to bring change - we cannot lead anyone else there.
I don't remember if it's this video or another one: Tim mentioned that the way to reach people is to get them to **want** the Gospel to be true, and then show them it **is** true.
I've been outside institutional church for about 8 years now. In this time, I've learned some things about being on the outside looking in:
- The church gives off an impression that they are better, holier than everyone else.
- Churches seem more interested in telling people how they're wrong vs showing people how much value they have.
- There is more freedom to exchange ideas outside the church.
- It's lonely to be without a spiritual community.
What do you think it would take for people to give the church another chance?
I think the only way we can be equal is in Christ Jesus. As humans, we can never create a fair and equitable society because of human nature. No one is without prejudice. No one has equal amounts of talent, and not all talents are equal. Not everyone has equal amounts of beauty. Intelligence, or perseverance. But there is plenty of opportunity in America for those who want to rise above their circumstances and and that is across all races. People come from all types of trauma and hardships to be successful but it is always through hard work. Those with less talent and less opportunity have to work harder to open doors but there are also many who squander their talents and opportunities. Success can have different meanings. Social Justice will not solve any of this. Socialism. Redistribution of wealth and a multitude of laws governing society will never create an equal and equitable society. Yet, we do all have equality in Christ. We’re all invited to the table. We can come to the cross and partake in the forgiveness of sins. Apart from forgiveness, redemption in Christ Jesus, we can never truly experience equality. The Bible holds us accountable as individuals for our behavior and call us, as individuals to care for our brothers and sisters in need, there are also morals and standards of personal behavior and accountability. Pouring money into social programs and Having a socialist government will not solve the ills of society. I wish I could know with certainty that Pastor Keller believed that because its not what I hear from his teachings. I think his way of dealing with the socialism encroaching upon the church was to embrace it.
Very well said!!!!
Amen! Well said!
I agree with Keller that politics has complicated Jesus’ main message…. Love God and our neighbors. American Christian culture focuses on anti socialism which I believe keeps people from doing the justice work that Jesus was all about. BEMA podcast and it’s in depth Bible Study has been eye opening!
Amen that Christians are equal in Christ this is true, meaning we’re all “holy enough” because we have Jesus Christ’s imputed righteousness. The world nonbelievers have Adam’s imputed sin-no true justice in that system.
Romans 4:23-24👑
Currently through the first portion. One thing I see with institutional Christianity is what I perceive as a bit of intellectual and emotional arrogance surrounding its own culture. If God exists, He is the creator of all cultures, not just Jewish and Christian. I can't believe that God would leave billions of people without any insights or revelations. I wish Christianity would embrace a more ecumenical stance. See the good and wisdom in other traditions and take a more humble stance of, "You can speak into our lives and we can speak into yours. And together we can grow in understanding."
This isn't limited to just Christianity. Especially in the West, there seems to be a lot of yelling over who's right. Maybe we're all a little right and a little wrong.
In the younger generation Christians, at least Catholics, Orthodox and what is called in US, Mainline Protestants, true ecumenism is becoming the trend that will push the leaderships in the next decades to come. Sadly for now this is the moment to the sexual wars. Let us see whom the heck is the most Biblical intolerant, sexist, anti-sex, or whatever else sex related may be... While the good news of the resurrection is sent to "2nd place"... No surprise Gen Z is leaving in droves!...
Christians are “holy enough” because we have Jesus Christ’s imputed righteousness. God has a Sovereign Will in our freewill choices to protect and draw us closer to Him-Romans 8:28 Romans 4:23-24👑
Please read the full book of romans from start to finish and see what Paul is trying to say to a Jewish and gentile audience and take them on the road to unity together . Blessings
Lot of interesting perspective - quite intellectual approach.
Wise comment on blue /red approach!
A.
16 comments?
B.
Pulpit mindset assuming & preaching things or ideas.
Jesus is teacher: his teaching is bilateral, parable- & spiritual centric & extremely personal. ↔ direction.
C. We're living in TED TALK culture so we must start the original teaching form.
D.
Adoption is keyword. This is the core of my ID as Christian. Righteousness is key. Guilt is not on the table for the lost... anymore.
C.
Cross is the true visdom of Gd.
Our part in the sufferings?
Comfort zone - as Mr Keller mentioned..
D.
Catholic has no Christian Ethic - it's wrong.
They have a pseudo Chr Ethic with strong human Ethic. Plus they have {wrong} priestly culture.
Protestantism practically has no priestly culture. And this basic ID @ 1Pt 2:9 was not mentioned here.
???
E.
Cities are difficult places.
That's why we should start with places with human relationships. Thus we follow the apostles. The modern mega city has no much human relationship.
The modern suburb is a sleeping town.
But The nowaday countryside is filled with connections.
Plus
I'm Christian actor. We are acting. Not simply dealing with theories.
Who has seen that moo ie
Star of The East
If you want to reach the culture you ignore it and be possessed by another mind.
102.7 lost fcc license Linda dadianz Seacrest bryan
The Catholic Church is another gospel, teaching a believer how to not be Catholic isn’t a problem, if the focus is imitating Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:8-9
1 Timothy 2:5-7
Why did Keller ever get the ear of Christians ? Start with Gen. He did not believe in the creation account . He was an evolutionist
Keller...caused alot of pain & suffering. He is a legalist..the Kind that attacked Jesus. It's all about..those codes...
His sermons always lead back to the gospel. You should take the time to read and listen more.
He preached of unearned grace.
I don't know how you could listen to Keller's sermons and come to the conclusion that he was a legalist. I'd encourage you to go to the Gospel in Life podcasts and listen to some samples.
He was a man who taught of God’s love and grace. Please listen to his sermons. He spoke of Christ’s love and how we must only put our hope in Him!!
Why does he incessantly talk about culture? He seems to worship it. I think the Bible talks little of it. I was taught how do you preach to a muslim..give him the gospel. How do you preach to a Hindu give him the gospel etc. Of course if you are over in India methods change for sure. I am not suggesting that. Just as even in this country southern people may differ from those in LA etc. But this constant parsing and talk of culture emphasis makes no sense to me. In the end Noone gets the gospel all you are doing is trying not to offend everyone. Oh I can't preach on that ever bcz someone might be offended. This is man centered gospel. Man centered not God centered. It's the foolishness of preaching the Gospel that saves people. It is the power of God that saves not the wisdom or so called wisdom of man. Then maybe all this culture worship will fall away. Man's cultures are rattled with sin.
He seems to hate American culture. Do you think other cultures are superior that they arnt as well rattled with sin? Many of them have very few Christians in it ? How can that make a better culture?
You might want to read a bit more.
Keller took a missionary approach to his ministry in NYC. You have to understand the mindset of the people you are seeking to reach if you are going to communicate the gospel in a way that they can understand. Look at how Paul's preaching methods differed in the Book of Acts when he preached to a Jewish audience, versus a pagan audience. The core of the gospel is unchanging, but how you make connections with your audience varies on the audience. That doesn't mean to change the message so you don't offend. Keller offended our self-righteous pride all the time! One of the key questions that missionaries deal with is "where do I begin?" when presenting the gospel. I'd encourage you to reread Acts with a missionary lens and see what insights the Lord shows you.