I used to instruct Air China cadets at my flight school. I always preferred teaching these guys over others, and most of my coworkers did as well. These are some of the hardest working pilots I’ve ever known. To even be selected to fly is an honor, and the sacrifices they make are no small thing. It’s easy to sit back and dump on their English. Imagine the situation, though. It’s an emergency, so tensions are already high. You’re switching between speaking Chinese to your crew (first and most efficient language) and English to the ATC. Compound all the stresses of an emergency and with only being able to use your second language. For this situation, I think the pilot speaking did great. Obviously not perfect, but conveyed what he needed to. At no point was there a complete communication breakdown. There are certainly examples of foreign (including Air China) pilots completely ruining radio communication, but this video is not one of them.
I thought his english was top notch, besides possibly not understanding is the fire contained, but thats not how i would have phrased that as a native english speaker speaking to a non native
Agreed. I'm laic and English is my 2nd language so mostly I don't understand spoken ATC messages. Now I clearly got every message from 818 without reading the subtitles. Respect to all participants.
It's the best course of action to continue and deal with this at a safer altitude. At that point (500') they were committed to taking off/climbing out/maintaining heading.
One of the pilot's most important work is to get accustomed with languages with which he must be dealing,so he is not doing an excellent job in case of the language part that must be sth he must do, he handled the situation well
Some people mentioned that the pilot sounded panicked. I don't think so. He was even concerned that the fuel dumping is done with permission and according to local rules. He was with very good reason stressed but he and his crew did fly the plane, navigate and communicate. I also did not notice any communication issues because of the gentleman's English.He and his crew did what they had to do in the proper way as far as i can tell.
As someone living near Dulles I appreciate his concern with the fuel dump. I assume at 6k' most of the fuel will evaporate before reaching the ground and the vapors will rise, but I'd hate to standing underneath either way.
He didnt sound even stressed in my opinion. he only declared a Pan pan and he was quite calm. I think it's just his accent that may make some people think he was panicked.
He sounded uncomfortable with English, occasionally looking for the words, but he was able to get what he needed communicated. Everything else is just his discomfort being expressed
@@forgottenfamily I think the language problems in that situation might indeed be stress induced, which is totally understandable. I think he sounded a lot clearer in the beginning. But overall I have heard much worse in a lot more average every day situations. Also one "flaw" in Chinese education, if you like to call it this way may come into play here. Learning in China is based almost completely on memorization, as due to its nature this is the only way to learn reading and writing in Chinese. With a lot of things going on plus some stress I can imagine this might impact your memorized language skills
@@alexku8452 There's also no common baseline. French and Spanish have very common rules and some of those rules are shared with English (though English is its own beast) but Chinese developed independently. But just generally, if you aren't fully comfortable in languages, you're kinda just mentally looking up words and translating on the fly rather than thinking in that language. Some people have a natural talent for it and some people spend all of their life doing mental dictionary memorization - that's basically how I approach French. He's a lot further down the comfort path but if you aren't immersed in English - and there's no reason why he would be - it can be really hard to get to that point.
@@eco2geek. I've been covered numerous times in jet fuel. It's not pleasant and it dries out the skin but pop in the shower and a good wash sorts you out.
I a agree with the last quote in the video from VAS aviation: good job pilots. The pilots landed safely. I am not an primary English language speaker my self, I am from Europe, and i can speak it well enough. But as a ambulance nurse, I can tell you that in a sudden stressful situation, a foreign language is harder to do, because your mind is set in problem solving, and it uses brain space for your ability to speak a foreign language. In aviation in an emergency, there are three steps you need to follow above all. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. The pilot flying is doing just that, fly the plane. The other pilot, has to navigate and communicate, but also help to find out what is wrong with the plane, and communicate with his crew to do a visual inspection of the engines and prepare the cabin, the last bit is done in his own language: so take al this in consideration, ATC who wants to know a lot in English, the stress level that goes up due to the emenergency, having to talk English and Chinese (with the crew), try to identify the problem and solve it, doing the emergency check lists. They did a hell of a good job in my book. It sounded like bad English because of the heavy accent, but still there where not many times, atc or the pilot had to repeat a message because it was not understood. They seemed to have followed procedures, and landed safe. What more do you expect.
I'm British and it didn't sound like bad English to me. He was deliberate with what he said and a few things were misheard but they were picked up on the readback and sorted out. My wife is Swedish and one thing I would say to anyone is never laugh at or belittle someone who is communicating in a second language, chances are that they speak at least one more language than the person laughing does. Don't get me wrong, there are always times that a non native speaker can say a word in a funny way or an accent makes a word come out a bit different and there's always room for a bit of fun when you're in day to day conversation. English people trying to speak foreign languages are usually very bad at it too. We're known for "murdering" other countries languages.
I am a native English speaker and i though his English was pretty good. Even when the sentences were worded differently i could understand what he meant.
I am a native English speaker and sometimes I find ATC hard to understand, especially at the busier airports. So I respect the good communication that transpired between pilots and ATC.
Big respect to the Air China pilots on doing their best to keep everything clear to controllers and communicating to the best of their ability. They are having to learn a new language, communicate with native English speakers, in a crowded airspace and trying to keep it all straight. Major respect and glad they did so well!
Oh poor Chinese people. Not. It’s simple: if you want to participate in international aviation you have to be able to speak fluent English. If you can’t do that you’re not qualified to do the job. Even slight misunderstandings can lead to the death of hundreds of people. There’s no „oh considering he’s Chinese he did a great job“. It’s either good English or bad English.
@@klamin_original theres always one... as a native English speaker it is extremely difficult, even for fluent speakers in stressful situations, especially with the amount of different regional dialects english has, here and in places across the world. They are definitely qualified and of course it is a necessity but that doesn't take away a great job done
@@klamin_original If you can communicate with your crew in your native language, and the ATC in your second language, all while having lost an engine and attempting to land your wounded airplane full of passengers without a single hesitation or mistake, please show us. Honestly.
@@zachanikwano BUT THOSE MOMENTS ARE THE CRUCIAL MOMENTS WHERE YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THINGS CORRECTLY AND SAY THEM CORRECTLY I don't care whether they can identify the right gate or not, that's not important, but giving crucial information and taking in crucial information is what really counts. So if they mess up in a calm state what happens when they're under stress???
I like the last guy, who guided air china with a clear English language, sometimes it's hard to hear what's the tower controller saying, I understand that all this fast talking is to save time, since the runway is busy, but in this kind of situation and for the pilots whose mother tongue is not English language, it's better to slow the words for them to be heard for a better understanding.
I’m a native English speaker, but not American, and I have trouble understanding American ATC at times...rushed, garbled, accents, non standard wordings..I just want to say slow down, enunciate, stick with recognised comms....so many times pilots have to ask for ATC to repeat instructions..which ends up taking longer than if they’d just slowed down and given clear instructions to begin with.
100% agree! IAD DEP was barely followable even for me most of the time they were on air due to fast, idiomatic and rather mumbly speech... and I'm a native English speaker AND a transcriptionist!! 🤦🏻♀️ Really glad both Potomac and Dulles ATC were communicating far more effectively and with greater thought to both language barriers and pilot's heavy emergency workload....
It's amazing how well these situations go when everyone is calm and talks through the issue and clearly communicates their problem and a solution. The ATC and pilots are to be commended here. Excellent job!
Kudos to Dulles app being understanding and speaking slower and clear for the air China pilots. A lot of ATC get really short and obtuse with pilots who speak English as a second language and it really angers me. She did a great job.
@@herrherrbert904 Yeah I agree with you...even tho I am from China I wanna say the guy's English needs improving...he should be able to speak more clearly and fluently/fast. But as far as I know these pilots for commercial flights are recruited and trained after they finish secondary school ageing 15 yrs, ie they don't go to high school as other teenagers do. However for sure they spend the extra 3 years when others are in high school receiving pilot related training, and I don't know much about those trainings (I bet it includes english for aviation purposes). What I kinda know is that usually, the students that go on this route of education (ie go into flight related training at 15 rather than normal students progressing to high school) are not the best of the class (well actually more likely to be at the bottom, because they don't expect to get into good universities so why not just completely go on a separate route). Obviously these people do go through training and pass certain criteria to be actually able to fly like this but they are certainly not the best among their peers.
And she was very good at emphasizing the most critical parts of the conversation. LEFT or RIGHT? And emphasized numbers and rephrased questions when the pilot didn't understand: i.e. how many people vs number of souls onboard.
Good situational awareness by pilot. Let ATC know no fire, loss of thrust. Kept ATC aware of engine status. Mountains -- ATC awareness & directing turn due to slow climbing aircraft. Good coordination on dump altitude. Thought it would take 1 or 2 more laps for the dump. Nice flight path track at end to recap the journey.
Nice job Captain and Co. Please don't mistake the pilots voice for being panicked or indecisive. This is just a man obviously under pressure and dealing with a potentially life threatening situation for hundreds of people and using his second language in a highly technical arena.
OMG I LIVE RIGHT NEXT TO DULLES. It flew over my house and I was following it on flight radar 24!! I even was listening to Dulles live atc and heard it all!
The pilot spoke English slowly and carefully to be understood. The ATC asked questions and waited for the pilot to respond. They all did a great job - pilots and ATC. Thanks for sharing.
We live in an age where we can listen to ATC emergency transcripts whilst watching hobbyist-recorded footage of the actual event from the transcript. The amount of people involved in getting all this together to create this video is staggering. I love modern technology and passionate communities.
I was about to make the same observation. Not a big deal except he was very heavy. Usually caused by a bleed valve, variable vane compressor section malfunction, possibly jet fuel control unit, or FOD/bird ingestion. Mandatory borescope inspection but will probably require an engine change as those multiple stalls usually curl compressor blade tips on those larger engines like P&W JT9D-7R4. Not sure about that GE90 though.....
@@culdeus9559 Have no idea. One internet source quotes about 10 mil for a GE90 full overhaul. We did all our own engines in house when TWA was in business so our 747-767 costs were much less. All I know is I could live real well on the cost to do one!
Wow so tough for those guys whose native language is not English. They have to fly the plane, work the problem while thinking in Mandarin, then translate to English their intentions for ATC. Good patient job by all involved.
Yeah, I think most European pilots learn to think in English even if their native language is another one. I personally find it easier since most of the engineering terms are easier in English and you don't have to translate to communicate. However Chinese is a completely different language so I guess it can be difficult to quickly think in English for them.
Specifically in this video, the pilot did a hell of a job. I can recognize his Chinese accent in the English he spoke, but i can understand him without the subtitle (I'm from Indonesia, and not a native English speaker myself ). I agree that in my region ( Asia ), the people are not proficient enough in English. BUT, in my opinion, if i were to be a pilot who fly to other countries, especially to the U.S, i would have to had a very good level of English speaking and listening ability. I had to be able to think in English about what i needed to say to the ATC or other officials. I'm not trying to look down to any pilot whose English isn't good enough... i'm just saying that the English speaking / listening ability level required for international flights for the pilots in my region is not high enough. I honestly think that (most) Asian countries which don't have English as their daily spoken language should increase their English ability requirements for their pilots and ATCs. I've watched and listened a lot of videos of ATC - pilot conversations in my country. And most of the time, i could hardly understand what they're saying.
@@PersonGamma because losing one engine is not considered to be an emergency. Swiss A330 lost one engine en-route to Shanghai and called Pan Pan Pan too. Mayday is only used in events like dual engine losts, fire inside or hydraulic failure.
@@PersonGamma I think they only used the Pan Pan after they switched frequency to raise attention with the new controller. A Mayday was not necessary at that time because the aircraft was not in immediate danger. It was clear from the context that the Tower controller was aware of the situation because they called it in the first place, so no explicit emergency call was necessary then.
Hey man! My dad works as an atc for Dulles a.k.a also works for the FAA. Unfortunately, this was right as my dad left for work. I believe this was a compressor stall. And I knew you would make this video as soon as my dad told me about the incident :)
Agree. Those on the ground see flames and become fixated on the idea that there is an engine fire. That seems to generate repeated enquiries to the pilots when they report loss of thrust (and they do say that they have checked with the cabin crew that there is no sign of fire).
So essentially what people saw was the airplane equivalent of a "back-fire" on a car muffler? You see a quick flame, but there is no fire in the car's engine.
Forget about the emergency, constantly switching between two languages for crew and ATC is already a hard thing to do... could their English be better? always; but in this case I think they did just fine, the communication between ATC and pilots never really break down. Some ppl just gotta remember that there are more than one language in the world, and not every one is top notch in English.
"Any of the ops vehicles for the emergency?" *BZZZZZZZZZ* "Ops 1, roger. Will you be the one proceeding onto the runway?" *BZZZZZZZZZ* "Your positio maam?" *BZZZZZZZZZ*
@Alin S that might actually be different for each airport. I have heard about callsigns like ARFF # and others as well, with sometimes even different callsigns for what must be the batallion chief
@@GigsTaggart exactly. The receivers recording the radio communications usually are not right at the airport. Due to their site any ops vehicles have lot less range than tower or other aircraft, so reception depending on the receiver location. It might just be enough to recognize a transmission, but just so
@@droneshotsantoine1805 English isn't his first language, and the chinese accent doesn't help. I think they did great! Also with stress of dealing with a aircraft that will hardly climb.
As a rookie can I please ask the following... 1. What happens to the dumped fuel, does it fall on the ground or is it vaporized in the atmosphere? 2. What does VASA stand for? Thanks. 👍
I worked at a factory here in Michigan (USA) that makes the honeycomb engine parts for alot of the major airlines. I worked the department just before the furnace and also the furnace. So, I believe, I've seen the final product before it's inspected and shipped out for assembly. VERY DELICATE process with VERY DELICATE parts. It was cool to learn about, in a way. I'd just started there when that 2018 engine blowout and ejection happened, the ATC is on this channel. Whole company was on edge because our parts were in that plane. That's when I started looking for another job, while fascinating to learn, I couldn't live with something like that potentially being my fault.
Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.... in an entirely different second language. Well done crew and controllers, superb work by all. I'm from East London in the UK and it's arguable that I even speak my first language, let alone a second. I'm like the lost Krays film extra in Mary Poppins all rolled into one lol.
China is one of the few countries that does not speak English in ATC, so Chinese pilots are really not so good at English, but they did handle the situation very well. Kudos to them
Tower ask one question...... pilots give totally different answer.... a bit of confusion here. Considering English is not their first language, these Air China aircrew did bloody well in my opinion. It's stressful enough to deal with this in your own language, let alone trying to do this in a language that you have had to learn. Well done to all involved.
Ingested a bird? Or possible compressor stall? Hard to tell. Even with the broken English this pilot was communicating well and following ATC instruction well. Did a fine job
It's fine for them to communicate if the captain needs a minute he can tell them to standby Remember that the video is also compressed for time I also don't think they ever said anything that wasn't relevant to the issue or navigation
As a Chinese, I have to say Air China has the worst livery, the worst fleet, the worst service, but damn the pilots r all real good. They may not speak proper English ( they weren’t taught so ), but riding their planes is true blessing. Just imagine how strong the wind may be, they would still make softest landings. I would say they’ve handled the situation really well, just imagine they were speaking British accent English, wouldn’t that be a great problem- handling.
Reminds me how scared I was the first time I heard a clearly British English guy speaking from the cockpit of an Air China plane... I was like damn, the rest of the crew surely does not understand that guy. lol But yes, I like their pilots, too, they are great at landing for sure, always pretty smooth.
Good job getting this posted so quickly, especially with the animation and videos! Maybe we will soon see you posting a video while the incident is still in progress. ;-) Keep up the good work.
Reminded me of British Airways Engine surge video, but only visually. It looked like engine had trouble with passing enough air through and restarted several times, and there were less sparks more like air pressure/airflow problems. Trouble with compressor? They probably had to turn engine off (I don't remember, but I think it is standard procedure), because it would try to bring power up and something would stop it. Question about procedures below. EDIT: It seems it was compressor stall, watching a lot of this videos seems to have an effect ;) I guessed that compressor was the problem - though the stall didn't enter my mind. To be fair though it would show only at some significant power, so it wouldn't be discovered before the takeoff. Also while communication was pointed out to be lacking, remember that the pilots have to run checklists, keep an eye on altitude, checking for other emergencies, preparing to dump fuel and Fly a plane first. Communicate is 3rd, least important factor and there are only 2 pilots. Anyway, good flying and for such a busy Airport, also good job for the ATC. On the subject of ATC, I wonder how many controllers are working at each time. In such an airport, I would assume 8 minimum. And it would be taxing as hell with that number. (By ATC, I mean Tower, Departure, Approach, Ground and since this is main airport maybe even sector. Some positions have to have multiple people, otherwise IDK how they would do their jobs). Maybe they could have only lower the engine output and it would be fine, but it looked like it didn't want to go to full power. I judge by the initial trouble in climbing that they switched off the engine. Unless someone knows if there is procedure to allow engine running at let's say 40% power (which would be hazardous IMO), they probably killed it and maybe started to run a checklist that included trying to restart the engine. I wonder what would happen if the engine had started, but didn't want to get to full power. Would they keep it at reduced power or turn it off fully, especially with "to their knowledge" unknown problem and reports of fire from the tower, though the crew said no fire. If anyone has the time and patience to explain procedures to me, I would appreciate it.
First action is decrease throttle for settling engine, any additional power in this phase of flight is precious. Next observe vibration indicator, if is back normal then use engine at this power level. Even at idle engine may produce electricity and add something to aircraft energy equation. But if vibrations are off chart then engine must be shut down.
@@adamw.8579 Thank you. Of course I forgot about Vibrations (when the blade is missing, I would assume they have to be terrible, so engine is shut down). Compressor stall however (don't know this engines) doesn't rule out using engine at lower power setting and as you said, every little helps :D
@@jannegrey Addition after edit original post. Engine stall/surge is PAN condition anyway. After dealing priority jobs, checklists, aircraft need to land when possible. Unstable engine in case of 2 engined aircraft is risky and flight need to be ended asap.
Thanks for those kind words. Many people like to make fun of Air China and everything that has to do with China. It is a shame really. Air China and other Chinese airlines are just as safe if not safer than western airlines. You can do a quick search. I think that at least tells us something.
Everyone dumping on Chinese pilot with slight accent, no one is concerned that DEP almost gave the heading to the wrong aircraft @1:55 . The two were close to each other, one is in distress, an incorrect instruction could be disastrous.
Always gets me when they say "you have a fire in your engine...." No, the engine surged. It's a phenomenon of modern jet engines where a compressor is used to increase thrust. When the pressure is not managed properly by the engine it surges. IE: backfires often flames will come out of the front and back of the engine. The jet manufacturers tell the pilots to maintain thrust and speed to allow the engine to stabilize, immediately cutting power will magnify the surging aspect and can cause a "REAL" unconfined engine failure. Like what happened in the Southwest jet in PHL..
It looked like fire, so that's what was communicated - it's not like the tower knew - compressor stall, better not tell them anything, they might turn off the engine and do some real damage. You see problem, you report it. And the pilots have figured out that there was no fire.
I mean even other pilots said fire. At that point something is majorly wrong, serious situation on takeoff with the plane near MTOW. I’m actually surprised how quickly he was able to get to 060
This is tricky to wrap my mind around. Can you explain in layman's terms the difference between flames that are not a fire, versus having an engine fire?
This Air China pilot did a much better job flying than I ever could. The lesson learned is "if you have an engine fire, IMMEDIATELY declare an emergency so that ATC can better help you" (there's always a lesson learned).
I was PAX on B-2035 just over a month ago when it operated flight CA868, a flight that sees a lot of ocean. Loved the livery when I saw it, unbelievable to see it here in what seems a compressor surge incident. Glad it landed safely. Kudos to flight, cabin, ground crew, and ATC.
I'm a non-native English speaker and found the wording "fire contained" and "fire out" at 5:21 especially confusing to non native speakers when IAD APP asked if the fire is still a problem. She should have asked "Is the fire still on the engines?", or "Is there still fire problem?", or something like that. "contain" is misleading wording because it usually means to "include" something. "out" is more ambiguous. It usually means something to do with area or being inside/outside. She maybe thought that "contain" was too difficult for non-native speakers and "out" was easier, but, the ambiguity was the problem.
The IAD APP sounds like my missus. "Do you think you have the fire contained?" - "No fire reported from the cabin crew" - "CCA818 Roger" "CCA818 is the fire out?" - "No fire, we just lost thrust" - "No fire, CCA818, understand there's no fire" - "Yes we just lost some power" "CCA818 is the fire out on the left or the right side" ................................................................................ If I was the CCA818 captain I'd ask to speak to her supervisor. I mean COME ON!
z00h - To be fair, the last one was "Is the _power_ out on the left or the right side?". But I agree that she could have asked for the information in more direct language.
Annoying!! I get that IAD just wanted to clarify info, but the 1st sentence out of the pilot's mouth was literally "pan-pan, Air China 818, we lost our left engine thrust." He said nothing about FIRE. Maybe just LISTEN to what the pilot is telling you about THEIR aircraft. I'd argue that the word 'FIRE' is universally known and understood by all commercial pilots b/c no one wants that!
Well the controller got that information passed to them by other controllers, so they can't just dismiss it because the pilot didn't say it after declaring PAN. They need to verify
@@jancovanderwesthuizen8070 I think at 2:31, he said "can we release slowly?" He meant dumping fuel slowly maybe. I guess I can understand him better, coz my first language is Mandarin. :)
@@VASAviation ATC at the end did, the first ATC were a little fast IMO, especially on the numbers. I agree, This particular captain was more fluent than most and it worked.
I think the Chinese pilots can understand fast English just fine; rather it's the Chinese pilots that have to talk slower, getting their "ing"s and final consonants on each word in order for ATC to better understand them. If that would've occurred I believe ATC wouldn't have required clarification from them on altitude, whether the fire was out, and when they would return to Dulles.
Good job pilots and controllers! As a Chinese living in Toronto for 17 years, using English and Mandarin for my daily job, I will say the pilots did a great job speaking English. Yes there is accent. There is no issue there as long as the needed communication can be done correctly. The plane landed safely, that is the most important!
In the video provided by Michelle it definitely looked like they had a compressor surge instead of a full-on engine fire. Either way, still a significant problem to have with a 777 loaded down to the keel for a 7,000 mile long-haul like that.
PAN PAN PFA . . . PAN PFA PFA PFA did ICAO & FAA issue a new revised PAN PFA PFA distress call sign for in-flight emergencies??? honestly, hat's off to those at ATC!!!
If he can maintain altitude and even climb a bit there is no immediate risk to life so not a mayday. Also I doubt the engine was lost. It was a compressor stall, so the procedure would be to reduce thrust to clear the stall. Now maybe it kept stalling when they increased thrust back up but I would expect they were getting some thrust from that engine. Pilot said loss of power.
Hi ..Question from a non-aviator. When dumping fuel what happens to it? Does it dissipate over a large area and none of it can be felt/smelt etc. Can people below feel it?
Yes, they were in no immediate threat. Without fire it’s reduced performance and redundancy. A fire would make it a mayday and immediately get on ground, even if heavy because the wing spar is at risk.
When we are in the air we are all souls and vulnerable human beings... tis a stark reminder people are people all over the world. I wish we cared about each other when we’re on the ground as we do when we are in the air. Doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from, an engine failure in an airplane is going to be the same for everyone.
I’m not complaining about something, but they should be better and work hard in English after they back to China and joined the company. Especially when you get that much pay, u should be more professional.
*Kudos to pilots and controllers!*
Also thanks to Michelle for sending the video she recorded from the ramp. Thanks for sharing!!
VASAviation - nice job Michelle 👍👍
Nice catch! Looked like compresser stalled
That was an excellent video.
Thanks Michelle! Great video.
I love you Michelle! I think we should be together.
I used to instruct Air China cadets at my flight school. I always preferred teaching these guys over others, and most of my coworkers did as well. These are some of the hardest working pilots I’ve ever known. To even be selected to fly is an honor, and the sacrifices they make are no small thing.
It’s easy to sit back and dump on their English. Imagine the situation, though. It’s an emergency, so tensions are already high. You’re switching between speaking Chinese to your crew (first and most efficient language) and English to the ATC. Compound all the stresses of an emergency and with only being able to use your second language.
For this situation, I think the pilot speaking did great. Obviously not perfect, but conveyed what he needed to. At no point was there a complete communication breakdown. There are certainly examples of foreign (including Air China) pilots completely ruining radio communication, but this video is not one of them.
The pay and benefits may not be the same as in other country's but it seems they are to notch pilots!
I thought his english was top notch, besides possibly not understanding is the fire contained, but thats not how i would have phrased that as a native english speaker speaking to a non native
Some people sadly believe lack of proficiency in a foreign language is equivalent to intelligence which is not nearly the case
Agreed. I'm laic and English is my 2nd language so mostly I don't understand spoken ATC messages.
Now I clearly got every message from 818 without reading the subtitles. Respect to all participants.
Yep. Great comment.
“Maintain runway heading and wait to deal with the problem.”
Story of my life! lol
I guess that's what you do in an emergency 🤔, fly the aircraft. Then troubleshoot later then communicate wit ATC
It's the best course of action to continue and deal with this at a safer altitude. At that point (500') they were committed to taking off/climbing out/maintaining heading.
@@iantherealg correct
@@derrick_blak_ Aviate, navigate, communicate
@@CharlieJT91 correct 💯💯
When you consider that pilot is switching between two very different languages in a very high stress situation he did an excellent job.
And he was super polite the whole time
That was my very first thought!
One of the pilot's most important work is to get accustomed with languages with which he must be dealing,so he is not doing an excellent job in case of the language part that must be sth he must do, he handled the situation well
@@maverick9116 , whatever you say….
@@maverick9116 maintaining clear communications in any second language when under stress is difficult. He did an excellent job.
Some people mentioned that the pilot sounded panicked. I don't think so. He was even concerned that the fuel dumping is done with permission and according to local rules. He was with very good reason stressed but he and his crew did fly the plane, navigate and communicate. I also did not notice any communication issues because of the gentleman's English.He and his crew did what they had to do in the proper way as far as i can tell.
As someone living near Dulles I appreciate his concern with the fuel dump. I assume at 6k' most of the fuel will evaporate before reaching the ground and the vapors will rise, but I'd hate to standing underneath either way.
He didnt sound even stressed in my opinion. he only declared a Pan pan and he was quite calm. I think it's just his accent that may make some people think he was panicked.
He sounded uncomfortable with English, occasionally looking for the words, but he was able to get what he needed communicated. Everything else is just his discomfort being expressed
@@forgottenfamily I think the language problems in that situation might indeed be stress induced, which is totally understandable. I think he sounded a lot clearer in the beginning. But overall I have heard much worse in a lot more average every day situations.
Also one "flaw" in Chinese education, if you like to call it this way may come into play here. Learning in China is based almost completely on memorization, as due to its nature this is the only way to learn reading and writing in Chinese.
With a lot of things going on plus some stress I can imagine this might impact your memorized language skills
@@alexku8452 There's also no common baseline. French and Spanish have very common rules and some of those rules are shared with English (though English is its own beast) but Chinese developed independently.
But just generally, if you aren't fully comfortable in languages, you're kinda just mentally looking up words and translating on the fly rather than thinking in that language. Some people have a natural talent for it and some people spend all of their life doing mental dictionary memorization - that's basically how I approach French. He's a lot further down the comfort path but if you aren't immersed in English - and there's no reason why he would be - it can be really hard to get to that point.
Delta B772: dump fuel on final at 2000ft without clearance
these guys: ask for vectors to the dump fuel area and 6000ft
Over South Central LA
Where the riots were? Who cares
@@rsattahip How would you like it if they dumped fuel on your child?
@@eco2geek. I've been covered numerous times in jet fuel. It's not pleasant and it dries out the skin but pop in the shower and a good wash sorts you out.
@@Recoil21 That's nice. It doesn't answer my question, though.
@@eco2geek. ok, I wouldn't be best pleased but it's not the end of the world.
I a agree with the last quote in the video from VAS aviation: good job pilots. The pilots landed safely. I am not an primary English language speaker my self, I am from Europe, and i can speak it well enough. But as a ambulance nurse, I can tell you that in a sudden stressful situation, a foreign language is harder to do, because your mind is set in problem solving, and it uses brain space for your ability to speak a foreign language. In aviation in an emergency, there are three steps you need to follow above all. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. The pilot flying is doing just that, fly the plane. The other pilot, has to navigate and communicate, but also help to find out what is wrong with the plane, and communicate with his crew to do a visual inspection of the engines and prepare the cabin, the last bit is done in his own language: so take al this in consideration, ATC who wants to know a lot in English, the stress level that goes up due to the emenergency, having to talk English and Chinese (with the crew), try to identify the problem and solve it, doing the emergency check lists. They did a hell of a good job in my book. It sounded like bad English because of the heavy accent, but still there where not many times, atc or the pilot had to repeat a message because it was not understood. They seemed to have followed procedures, and landed safe. What more do you expect.
👍
That's why pilots make so much money and are able to be drunk on the job (and get to use autopilot) - they are professionals!
I'm British and it didn't sound like bad English to me. He was deliberate with what he said and a few things were misheard but they were picked up on the readback and sorted out.
My wife is Swedish and one thing I would say to anyone is never laugh at or belittle someone who is communicating in a second language, chances are that they speak at least one more language than the person laughing does.
Don't get me wrong, there are always times that a non native speaker can say a word in a funny way or an accent makes a word come out a bit different and there's always room for a bit of fun when you're in day to day conversation.
English people trying to speak foreign languages are usually very bad at it too. We're known for "murdering" other countries languages.
👍🤝
I am a native English speaker and i though his English was pretty good. Even when the sentences were worded differently i could understand what he meant.
I am a native English speaker and sometimes I find ATC hard to understand, especially at the busier airports. So I respect the good communication that transpired between pilots and ATC.
A testament to the power and ability of modern aircraft. Full load of fuel and pax and climbing out on departure on one engine. Good job guys.
Big respect to the Air China pilots on doing their best to keep everything clear to controllers and communicating to the best of their ability. They are having to learn a new language, communicate with native English speakers, in a crowded airspace and trying to keep it all straight. Major respect and glad they did so well!
Oh poor Chinese people.
Not.
It’s simple: if you want to participate in international aviation you have to be able to speak fluent English.
If you can’t do that you’re not qualified to do the job.
Even slight misunderstandings can lead to the death of hundreds of people.
There’s no „oh considering he’s Chinese he did a great job“.
It’s either good English or bad English.
@@klamin_original theres always one... as a native English speaker it is extremely difficult, even for fluent speakers in stressful situations, especially with the amount of different regional dialects english has, here and in places across the world. They are definitely qualified and of course it is a necessity but that doesn't take away a great job done
@@klamin_original
If you can communicate with your crew in your native language, and the ATC in your second language, all while having lost an engine and attempting to land your wounded airplane full of passengers without a single hesitation or mistake, please show us.
Honestly.
@@zachanikwano BUT THOSE MOMENTS ARE THE CRUCIAL MOMENTS WHERE YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THINGS CORRECTLY AND SAY THEM CORRECTLY
I don't care whether they can identify the right gate or not, that's not important, but giving crucial information and taking in crucial information is what really counts. So if they mess up in a calm state what happens when they're under stress???
I like the last guy, who guided air china with a clear English language, sometimes it's hard to hear what's the tower controller saying, I understand that all this fast talking is to save time, since the runway is busy, but in this kind of situation and for the pilots whose mother tongue is not English language, it's better to slow the words for them to be heard for a better understanding.
I also heard him repeat the previous sentence, rephrasing it so the pilot was sure to understand him.
I’m a native English speaker, but not American, and I have trouble understanding American ATC at times...rushed, garbled, accents, non standard wordings..I just want to say slow down, enunciate, stick with recognised comms....so many times pilots have to ask for ATC to repeat instructions..which ends up taking longer than if they’d just slowed down and given clear instructions to begin with.
100% agree! IAD DEP was barely followable even for me most of the time they were on air due to fast, idiomatic and rather mumbly speech... and I'm a native English speaker AND a transcriptionist!! 🤦🏻♀️ Really glad both Potomac and Dulles ATC were communicating far more effectively and with greater thought to both language barriers and pilot's heavy emergency workload....
It's amazing how well these situations go when everyone is calm and talks through the issue and clearly communicates their problem and a solution. The ATC and pilots are to be commended here. Excellent job!
We spend a considerable amount of time practicing these emergencies so when they become reality, it's mostly second nature to deal with them.
Kudos to Dulles app being understanding and speaking slower and clear for the air China pilots.
A lot of ATC get really short and obtuse with pilots who speak English as a second language and it really angers me.
She did a great job.
But the pilot should learn some English... Its really bad...
@@herrherrbert904 Yeah I agree with you...even tho I am from China I wanna say the guy's English needs improving...he should be able to speak more clearly and fluently/fast. But as far as I know these pilots for commercial flights are recruited and trained after they finish secondary school ageing 15 yrs, ie they don't go to high school as other teenagers do. However for sure they spend the extra 3 years when others are in high school receiving pilot related training, and I don't know much about those trainings (I bet it includes english for aviation purposes). What I kinda know is that usually, the students that go on this route of education (ie go into flight related training at 15 rather than normal students progressing to high school) are not the best of the class (well actually more likely to be at the bottom, because they don't expect to get into good universities so why not just completely go on a separate route). Obviously these people do go through training and pass certain criteria to be actually able to fly like this but they are certainly not the best among their peers.
And she was very good at emphasizing the most critical parts of the conversation. LEFT or RIGHT? And emphasized numbers and rephrased questions when the pilot didn't understand: i.e. how many people vs number of souls onboard.
Good situational awareness by pilot. Let ATC know no fire, loss of thrust. Kept ATC aware of engine status. Mountains -- ATC awareness & directing turn due to slow climbing aircraft. Good coordination on dump altitude. Thought it would take 1 or 2 more laps for the dump. Nice flight path track at end to recap the journey.
The woman behind IAD approach did a good job with rephrasing her questions when the pilot seemed to have trouble understanding.
Nice job Captain and Co. Please don't mistake the pilots voice for being panicked or indecisive. This is just a man obviously under pressure and dealing with a potentially life threatening situation for hundreds of people and using his second language in a highly technical arena.
@书中自有黄金屋
They don't know for sure if it's fire. But if it was a fire then big trouble
OMG I LIVE RIGHT NEXT TO DULLES. It flew over my house and I was following it on flight radar 24!! I even was listening to Dulles live atc and heard it all!
Did you smell all the fuel??
The pilot spoke English slowly and carefully to be understood. The ATC asked questions and waited for the pilot to respond. They all did a great job - pilots and ATC. Thanks for sharing.
We live in an age where we can listen to ATC emergency transcripts whilst watching hobbyist-recorded footage of the actual event from the transcript. The amount of people involved in getting all this together to create this video is staggering. I love modern technology and passionate communities.
Compressor stall, not an engine fire.
Often confused by those watching. It can make alot of difference to the crew reaction.
Might look the same for bystanders due to the engine kind of backfiring
I was about to make the same observation. Not a big deal except he was very heavy. Usually caused by a bleed valve, variable vane compressor section malfunction, possibly jet fuel control unit, or FOD/bird ingestion. Mandatory borescope inspection but will probably require an engine change as those multiple stalls usually curl compressor blade tips on those larger engines like P&W JT9D-7R4. Not sure about that GE90 though.....
@@markhull1366 how much that gonna cost. 1 mil or 10?
@@culdeus9559 Have no idea. One internet source quotes about 10 mil for a GE90 full overhaul. We did all our own engines in house when TWA was in business so our 747-767 costs were much less. All I know is I could live real well on the cost to do one!
I can’t unsee the flight track in the thumbnail
jd haha that’s why I clicked this video 😆
Yeah, it's a cock & balls
Wow so tough for those guys whose native language is not English. They have to fly the plane, work the problem while thinking in Mandarin, then translate to English their intentions for ATC. Good patient job by all involved.
Yeah, I think most European pilots learn to think in English even if their native language is another one. I personally find it easier since most of the engineering terms are easier in English and you don't have to translate to communicate. However Chinese is a completely different language so I guess it can be difficult to quickly think in English for them.
Specifically in this video, the pilot did a hell of a job. I can recognize his Chinese accent in the English he spoke, but i can understand him without the subtitle (I'm from Indonesia, and not a native English speaker myself ).
I agree that in my region ( Asia ), the people are not proficient enough in English. BUT, in my opinion, if i were to be a pilot who fly to other countries, especially to the U.S, i would have to had a very good level of English speaking and listening ability.
I had to be able to think in English about what i needed to say to the ATC or other officials.
I'm not trying to look down to any pilot whose English isn't good enough... i'm just saying that the English speaking / listening ability level required for international flights for the pilots in my region is not high enough.
I honestly think that (most) Asian countries which don't have English as their daily spoken language should increase their English ability requirements for their pilots and ATCs.
I've watched and listened a lot of videos of ATC - pilot conversations in my country. And most of the time, i could hardly understand what they're saying.
I had a difficult time understanding the pilots at first but after a min or so I could understand pretty much everything they said.
that was the best pan pan pan call I'v ever heard lmao.
PAN-PAPAPAPAAA!!
Took a long time to declare pan pan. Why not declare mayday as soon as thrust is lost?
@Erich Weiler interesting thanks
@@PersonGamma because losing one engine is not considered to be an emergency. Swiss A330 lost one engine en-route to Shanghai and called Pan Pan Pan too. Mayday is only used in events like dual engine losts, fire inside or hydraulic failure.
@@PersonGamma I think they only used the Pan Pan after they switched frequency to raise attention with the new controller.
A Mayday was not necessary at that time because the aircraft was not in immediate danger.
It was clear from the context that the Tower controller was aware of the situation because they called it in the first place, so no explicit emergency call was necessary then.
Hey man! My dad works as an atc for Dulles a.k.a also works for the FAA. Unfortunately, this was right as my dad left for work. I believe this was a compressor stall. And I knew you would make this video as soon as my dad told me about the incident :)
Nice
Do you get to visit him at work? That would be cool! Or are there security issues....
Those pilots did an outstanding job, it doesn't matter where they are from! They maintained their professional demeanor! Very well done
I could never do this job. Helluva time understanding accents so subtitles are sooooo helpful!
Amazing how calm these people are. Pilots and ATC's. Hats off to all.👏
I think the last controller was the best one: Talked slowly and articulated. No mumble and high speed competition there.
Please, ATC - you can clearly hear that it's a stressful situation AND that the language makes it somewhat more difficult so then t a l k s l o w e r!
The last tower controller did a good job speaking clearly, although the tone was a bit aggressive
@@jamisonbreeding7181 Yes she did, but the first one was way too fast.
All controllers were awesome with them
@@jamisonbreeding7181 That's northeast controllers for ya :D
meu deus que agonia esses povos nao passaram....
i watched this land live on NBC4 yesterday. was hoping you would get the audio. thanks for being on top of all aviation!
There you go
5:00 he was imitating what sounds the engine made
PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN XD
😂😂😂
Pan pan x 3
No.
I’m fucking dead 😂😂😂😂😂
9:25 Penn Jillette puts his Vegas and TV magic career on hold to moonlight in the tower
Engine Compressor stall / surge, rather than a fire, often confused by people reporting it as a fire.
Agree. Those on the ground see flames and become fixated on the idea that there is an engine fire. That seems to generate repeated enquiries to the pilots when they report loss of thrust (and they do say that they have checked with the cabin crew that there is no sign of fire).
So essentially what people saw was the airplane equivalent of a "back-fire" on a car muffler? You see a quick flame, but there is no fire in the car's engine.
@@BillinHungary Basically yes.
Yeah, I was annoyed on the pilot's behalf, like he had to say 3 times that there was no fire. lol
Forget about the emergency, constantly switching between two languages for crew and ATC is already a hard thing to do... could their English be better? always; but in this case I think they did just fine, the communication between ATC and pilots never really break down. Some ppl just gotta remember that there are more than one language in the world, and not every one is top notch in English.
Indeed so. Many Americans aren't top-notch in English
It was only a compressor stall. The guys on ground and ATC amplified the situation and made it look like really serious engine fire
The response for both is basically the same.(land the plane) Not much point in quibbling over the exact cause. Let the mechanics sort that out later.
"Any of the ops vehicles for the emergency?"
*BZZZZZZZZZ*
"Ops 1, roger. Will you be the one proceeding onto the runway?"
*BZZZZZZZZZ*
"Your positio maam?"
*BZZZZZZZZZ*
The plane spotters cant always get good reception for ground vehicles. Little antennas down low.
OPS always carry a beehive just in case they have to cover runway in honey for smooth landing.
@Alin S that might actually be different for each airport. I have heard about callsigns like ARFF # and others as well, with sometimes even different callsigns for what must be the batallion chief
@@GigsTaggart exactly. The receivers recording the radio communications usually are not right at the airport. Due to their site any ops vehicles have lot less range than tower or other aircraft, so reception depending on the receiver location.
It might just be enough to recognize a transmission, but just so
This comment is so underrated
Steel balls, pilots kept flying the heavy aircraft with reduced power until they got permission to dump fuel.
Real pros.
Just normal day in a trained situation. Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when..
He can't even communicate
@@droneshotsantoine1805 English isn't his first language, and the chinese accent doesn't help. I think they did great! Also with stress of dealing with a aircraft that will hardly climb.
As a rookie can I please ask the following...
1. What happens to the dumped fuel, does it fall on the ground or is it vaporized in the atmosphere?
2. What does VASA stand for?
Thanks. 👍
1. It vaporizes.
2. VAS are my initials
@@VASAviation Thanks.🙂
@@VASAviation VAS...simply means BEST AVIATION RELATED youtuber. Thank you sir for your awesome work!!.
The dumped fuel has to fall a few thousand feet in order to vaporize completely. That's why at 4:20 they request altitude 6000 feet to dump fuel.
@@krubokrobu I had no idea fuel vaporization was possible... Thanks. (I barely passed chemistry.).
Good flying lads. In situations like this you can see why the robotic ICAO standard phraseology would be brilliant.
这样可以了，真的不错了，国内百分之90的本土机组可能都达不到这个水平。great job Air China flight crew, this is a really good sample for chinese flight crews!
没毛病 感觉机长处理的很好
是的，这属于那种口音重但是完全听得懂的
Really great job, both pilot and controller.
Ok. A round of applause for the Chinese speaking pilot who was able to speak English at the critical moments. Well done sir!
I worked at a factory here in Michigan (USA) that makes the honeycomb engine parts for alot of the major airlines. I worked the department just before the furnace and also the furnace. So, I believe, I've seen the final product before it's inspected and shipped out for assembly. VERY DELICATE process with VERY DELICATE parts. It was cool to learn about, in a way. I'd just started there when that 2018 engine blowout and ejection happened, the ATC is on this channel. Whole company was on edge because our parts were in that plane. That's when I started looking for another job, while fascinating to learn, I couldn't live with something like that potentially being my fault.
Unless you're in quality control it's not your fault.
Well done to crew and controllers. Safe outcome.
Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.... in an entirely different second language. Well done crew and controllers, superb work by all.
I'm from East London in the UK and it's arguable that I even speak my first language, let alone a second. I'm like the lost Krays film extra in Mary Poppins all rolled into one lol.
China is one of the few countries that does not speak English in ATC, so Chinese pilots are really not so good at English, but they did handle the situation very well. Kudos to them
But it's really stupid and typical for China...
Tower ask one question...... pilots give totally different answer.... a bit of confusion here.
Considering English is not their first language, these Air China aircrew did bloody well in my opinion. It's stressful enough to deal with this in your own language, let alone trying to do this in a language that you have had to learn. Well done to all involved.
I fly this same flight five times a year, they have always been great flights with a nice staff
Ingested a bird? Or possible compressor stall? Hard to tell. Even with the broken English this pilot was communicating well and following ATC instruction well. Did a fine job
00:58 go away atc leave them alone
ATC really needs to respect that the crew has more to do that talk on the radio, just be quiet, and give them some working peace.
It's fine for them to communicate if the captain needs a minute he can tell them to standby
Remember that the video is also compressed for time
I also don't think they ever said anything that wasn't relevant to the issue or navigation
Keep in mind that VAS here trimmed some of the silences, that might give the appearance that ATC was badgering them.
Great job by ATC too. Each one was very clear and patient.
As a Chinese, I have to say Air China has the worst livery, the worst fleet, the worst service, but damn the pilots r all real good. They may not speak proper English ( they weren’t taught so ), but riding their planes is true blessing. Just imagine how strong the wind may be, they would still make softest landings. I would say they’ve handled the situation really well, just imagine they were speaking British accent English, wouldn’t that be a great problem- handling.
Reminds me how scared I was the first time I heard a clearly British English guy speaking from the cockpit of an Air China plane... I was like damn, the rest of the crew surely does not understand that guy. lol
But yes, I like their pilots, too, they are great at landing for sure, always pretty smooth.
Good job getting this posted so quickly, especially with the animation and videos!
Maybe we will soon see you posting a video while the incident is still in progress. ;-)
Keep up the good work.
Reminded me of British Airways Engine surge video, but only visually. It looked like engine had trouble with passing enough air through and restarted several times, and there were less sparks more like air pressure/airflow problems. Trouble with compressor? They probably had to turn engine off (I don't remember, but I think it is standard procedure), because it would try to bring power up and something would stop it. Question about procedures below.
EDIT: It seems it was compressor stall, watching a lot of this videos seems to have an effect ;) I guessed that compressor was the problem - though the stall didn't enter my mind. To be fair though it would show only at some significant power, so it wouldn't be discovered before the takeoff. Also while communication was pointed out to be lacking, remember that the pilots have to run checklists, keep an eye on altitude, checking for other emergencies, preparing to dump fuel and Fly a plane first. Communicate is 3rd, least important factor and there are only 2 pilots.
Anyway, good flying and for such a busy Airport, also good job for the ATC. On the subject of ATC, I wonder how many controllers are working at each time. In such an airport, I would assume 8 minimum. And it would be taxing as hell with that number. (By ATC, I mean Tower, Departure, Approach, Ground and since this is main airport maybe even sector. Some positions have to have multiple people, otherwise IDK how they would do their jobs).
Maybe they could have only lower the engine output and it would be fine, but it looked like it didn't want to go to full power. I judge by the initial trouble in climbing that they switched off the engine. Unless someone knows if there is procedure to allow engine running at let's say 40% power (which would be hazardous IMO), they probably killed it and maybe started to run a checklist that included trying to restart the engine. I wonder what would happen if the engine had started, but didn't want to get to full power. Would they keep it at reduced power or turn it off fully, especially with "to their knowledge" unknown problem and reports of fire from the tower, though the crew said no fire. If anyone has the time and patience to explain procedures to me, I would appreciate it.
First action is decrease throttle for settling engine, any additional power in this phase of flight is precious. Next observe vibration indicator, if is back normal then use engine at this power level. Even at idle engine may produce electricity and add something to aircraft energy equation. But if vibrations are off chart then engine must be shut down.
@@adamw.8579 Thank you. Of course I forgot about Vibrations (when the blade is missing, I would assume they have to be terrible, so engine is shut down). Compressor stall however (don't know this engines) doesn't rule out using engine at lower power setting and as you said, every little helps :D
@@jannegrey Addition after edit original post. Engine stall/surge is PAN condition anyway. After dealing priority jobs, checklists, aircraft need to land when possible. Unstable engine in case of 2 engined aircraft is risky and flight need to be ended asap.
Just when you think your going home, something like this happens.
That Pan-Pan call made the little drummer boy jealous.
Thanks for those kind words. Many people like to make fun of Air China and everything that has to do with China. It is a shame really. Air China and other Chinese airlines are just as safe if not safer than western airlines. You can do a quick search. I think that at least tells us something.
Everyone dumping on Chinese pilot with slight accent, no one is concerned that DEP almost gave the heading to the wrong aircraft @1:55 . The two were close to each other, one is in distress, an incorrect instruction could be disastrous.
Always gets me when they say "you have a fire in your engine...." No, the engine surged. It's a phenomenon of modern jet engines where a compressor is used to increase thrust. When the pressure is not managed properly by the engine it surges. IE: backfires often flames will come out of the front and back of the engine. The jet manufacturers tell the pilots to maintain thrust and speed to allow the engine to stabilize, immediately cutting power will magnify the surging aspect and can cause a "REAL" unconfined engine failure. Like what happened in the Southwest jet in PHL..
wizbang68 that doesn’t look like an engine surge. More like a compressor stall.
It looked like fire, so that's what was communicated - it's not like the tower knew - compressor stall, better not tell them anything, they might turn off the engine and do some real damage. You see problem, you report it. And the pilots have figured out that there was no fire.
I mean even other pilots said fire. At that point something is majorly wrong, serious situation on takeoff with the plane near MTOW. I’m actually surprised how quickly he was able to get to 060
Boeing memory items literally say to retard the thrust lever till the condition is gone or thrust lever is at idle.
This is tricky to wrap my mind around. Can you explain in layman's terms the difference between flames that are not a fire, versus having an engine fire?
Chinese pilot was impressive.
This Air China pilot did a much better job flying than I ever could. The lesson learned is "if you have an engine fire, IMMEDIATELY declare an emergency so that ATC can better help you" (there's always a lesson learned).
I was PAX on B-2035 just over a month ago when it operated flight CA868, a flight that sees a lot of ocean. Loved the livery when I saw it, unbelievable to see it here in what seems a compressor surge incident. Glad it landed safely. Kudos to flight, cabin, ground crew, and ATC.
I'm a non-native English speaker and found the wording "fire contained" and "fire out" at 5:21 especially confusing to non native speakers when IAD APP asked if the fire is still a problem.
She should have asked "Is the fire still on the engines?", or "Is there still fire problem?", or something like that.
"contain" is misleading wording because it usually means to "include" something.
"out" is more ambiguous. It usually means something to do with area or being inside/outside.
She maybe thought that "contain" was too difficult for non-native speakers and "out" was easier, but, the ambiguity was the problem.
The IAD APP sounds like my missus.
"Do you think you have the fire contained?" - "No fire reported from the cabin crew" - "CCA818 Roger"
"CCA818 is the fire out?" - "No fire, we just lost thrust" - "No fire, CCA818, understand there's no fire" - "Yes we just lost some power"
"CCA818 is the fire out on the left or the right side" ................................................................................
If I was the CCA818 captain I'd ask to speak to her supervisor. I mean COME ON!
I think they didn't understand very well what CCA was saying. You're reading my captions but understading these guys was really hard
z00h - To be fair, the last one was "Is the _power_ out on the left or the right side?". But I agree that she could have asked for the information in more direct language.
@@Tevildo Ahh you're right, she said "power" not "fire". I went with captions rather than audio. But yes less is in most cases more.
Having to have dealt with this type of emergency in two languages, could not have been easy.
Annoying!! I get that IAD just wanted to clarify info, but the 1st sentence out of the pilot's mouth was literally "pan-pan, Air China 818, we lost our left engine thrust." He said nothing about FIRE. Maybe just LISTEN to what the pilot is telling you about THEIR aircraft. I'd argue that the word 'FIRE' is universally known and understood by all commercial pilots b/c no one wants that!
Well the controller got that information passed to them by other controllers, so they can't just dismiss it because the pilot didn't say it after declaring PAN. They need to verify
Looked like a compressor stall.
and... why would that happen? thank you :)
@@vanessaruiz4705 ruclips.net/video/6yjEbuc7Hqw/видео.html
How many souls? Are u kidding me? This is how Americans speak? No wonder the pilot didn’t understand
That's standard phraseology
Apparently you are clueless and think like your driving all rules are made as you go.
Hello grate job Air China crew. Saludos
Grate, that reminds me; I need a new BBQ great. 😒
Pan pan pan pan pan. Shots fired 5:01
Well done pilots and ATC in stressful situation both did a great job
Imagine the amount of fuel dumped yearly and the effort groups invest to stop fuel wastage :o
Good job pilots!Good job Air China
Good pilot, good atc, good ground. Everyone is super professional ✌️👏
Did it turn into full on flames? Looked like an engine surge on take off.
My "intentions" are to FLY THE AIRPLANE!! lol
Although English is not their first language, these air China pilots seem really professional. Well done.
They shd inform him he can dump fuel earlier.He had to enquire during heavy workload
His English is pretty good. I was expecting much worse from Chinese pilots
I had a really difficult time writing the captions for this guy
@@VASAviation I can imagine 😂 still, it could've been worse I think
ruclips.net/video/max5aROuhlI/видео.html
@@jancovanderwesthuizen8070 I think at 2:31, he said "can we release slowly?" He meant dumping fuel slowly maybe. I guess I can understand him better, coz my first language is Mandarin. :)
@@michaelhe8254 哈哈，非常好
@@jancovanderwesthuizen8070 Actually I intended to reply to @VASAviation 🤣
They need to speak way more slowly and in standard format with these foreign pilots, especially Chinese.
And they did
@@VASAviation ATC at the end did, the first ATC were a little fast IMO, especially on the numbers. I agree, This particular captain was more fluent than most and it worked.
I think the Chinese pilots can understand fast English just fine; rather it's the Chinese pilots that have to talk slower, getting their "ing"s and final consonants on each word in order for ATC to better understand them. If that would've occurred I believe ATC wouldn't have required clarification from them on altitude, whether the fire was out, and when they would return to Dulles.
Understanding is not a problem for most non natives(me included). Speaking as fast is definitely more challenging.
Good job pilots and controllers! As a Chinese living in Toronto for 17 years, using English and Mandarin for my daily job, I will say the pilots did a great job speaking English. Yes there is accent. There is no issue there as long as the needed communication can be done correctly. The plane landed safely, that is the most important!
Any special rules as this is DC or is that just closer to WH pentagon etc
Pilot never understood report of fire in engine
So proud of our chinese pilots here! Great job 👏 起落平安❤
*Having an emergency
Pilot: Dulles tower *good afternoon*
In the video provided by Michelle it definitely looked like they had a compressor surge instead of a full-on engine fire. Either way, still a significant problem to have with a 777 loaded down to the keel for a 7,000 mile long-haul like that.
....likely a bird strike...
@@johfertitta5233 Wouldn't be surprised if that's what caused the surge.
PAN PAN PFA . . . PAN PFA PFA PFA did ICAO & FAA issue a new revised PAN PFA PFA distress call sign for in-flight emergencies??? honestly, hat's off to those at ATC!!!
Love to see China in USA having communication in a positive way
Whats crazy is Airforceproud95 had a guy in one of his FSX videos that was an Air China Flight with a bad engine. That was a few months ago.
"power out", not "fire out" at 6:02
You can just spray jet fuel all over the neighborhood? At 6000' the wind could carry that a long ways. That was surprising to me.
Wouldn't loss of engine be a Mayday? And why did he wait so long to declare Pan Pan?
ruclips.net/video/UWpwl-NPnrM/видео.html
777 is etops rated so it can fly on one engine
@@IgorFioli Thx, Igor.
If he can maintain altitude and even climb a bit there is no immediate risk to life so not a mayday. Also I doubt the engine was lost. It was a compressor stall, so the procedure would be to reduce thrust to clear the stall. Now maybe it kept stalling when they increased thrust back up but I would expect they were getting some thrust from that engine. Pilot said loss of power.
ATC declared an emergency for them as soon as they saw those flames, so not a big deal.
Pilots did great work, they send EM (emergency) very quick and done all the work as should be done 👍
Is the fire out? No, No fire. Is it no fire? Yes.
Hi ..Question from a non-aviator. When dumping fuel what happens to it? Does it dissipate over a large area and none of it can be felt/smelt etc. Can people below feel it?
It vaporizes
@@VASAviation Thanks
PAN PAN PAN when you have lost half of your engines, is that right ??
Affirm
Yes, they were in no immediate threat. Without fire it’s reduced performance and redundancy. A fire would make it a mayday and immediately get on ground, even if heavy because the wing spar is at risk.
That was quick!
When we are in the air we are all souls and vulnerable human beings... tis a stark reminder people are people all over the world. I wish we cared about each other when we’re on the ground as we do when we are in the air. Doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from, an engine failure in an airplane is going to be the same for everyone.
I’m not complaining about something, but they should be better and work hard in English after they back to China and joined the company. Especially when you get that much pay, u should be more professional.
welcome to the "international" airport..
Try flying to Europe or Russia.. guarantee you that the accent is somewhat similar
In Europe its much better