It makes me so happy that all these years later people are still finding my walkthrough video helpful. Thanks for the mention, and great job making this incredible video ❤️❤
I've personally sent it to like 4 different people I know who were like "yay vampires... wait wtf :c" so I can attest to the fact it's an effective guide and gets people to enjoy the game.
I think my favourite take on vampires as (unsubtle) class metaphor which makes the hunger themes work is the TTRPG Brinkwood, where people become vampires by drinking an alchemical potion of blood and silver, but if they don't take it regularly they...become normal humans again. They could give it up at any time, but because they're the kind of people who'd drink blood to gain power, the idea of doing so is absolutely unthinkable to them.
I like this because a lot of Vampires As A Class Metaphor stuff *and* discussions of real life class issues often ignore or overlook the fact that the wealth hoarded by the ruling class can be lost, taken, reappropriated, or (maybe most importantly) willingly relinquished, and the ruling class makes the choice to not let that happen every day. If a worker can’t work, they risk homelessness and death. If a property owner can’t own property, they become a worker. Their fear of that possibility is a major driving force behind their most horrific actions.
@KickinRadTopHat I'm not saying you're wrong but metaphors only need to work in as far as what any specific story is trying to say. If a story wants to explore how the elite is exploiting everyone and losing their humanity in the process I don't think it's necessary to consider "but what if a vampire was poor". Things like their sensitivity to sunlight also makes sense in the context of nobility hiding away in castles. If you want to use vampirism as a metaphor for addiction it's worth exploring how it affects the rich and poor differently (like the amount access, wether they're punished for doing it, the effect it has on people around them etc.) but in that context the rules for it can change.
The Vampy-Pathologic connection is really unacnny when you start thinking about it Doctor returns from a far away land back to his homeland but his family has been killed, he is a rational scientist trying to stop an epidemic that is supernatural in nature. He has to kill people and spill blood to achieve his goals, do research and deal with aristocrats, use his social powers to manipulate people. At the end something must be sacrificed to achieve victory.
I grabbed the game on a whim earlier this year and was honestly shocked to find how much the plague related systems resemble Pathologic. Its probably the games biggest influence after VTM.
"There is no one out there arguing zombies count as vampires" You underestimate both my pedantry and the absolute fucking soup that is folklore about the undead.
It is kind of funny that for the early mentions of Fallout 3 in the video it fails to recall, especially in the line about undead cannibals, that Fallout 3 has a clan of vampires living in a dark subway. Even better: if you start really digging into the vampire clan as part of their quest, you learn that they are ethical cannibals. They know they aren’t actually vampires, but they find that using vampirism as a concept to direct the dark hunger for flesh to a much more renewable resource to be the best option for reducing harm. Fallout 3 wasn’t afraid explore unique themes, and exploring side content feels like reading a book of short stories.
As for Dracula's abilities I have no clue but one thing that's rarely portrayed is full on shapeshifting most depictions of shapeshifting vampires only has them turn into bats, but in the original book he could turn into mist, dogs, bats and wolves. That's actually in keeping with old myths of the strigoi. Lots of monsters involved turning into wolves because historically europeans hated and feared wolves. I also have not watched any Dracula media, i did read an article on Count Dracula abilities and I find it fascinating that many of his abilities can be found in Vampire: The Masquerade) One specific one is Blood Bonding, or in the article known as "Baptism of the Blood" which in Bram Stoker's Dracula does two things, 1) it begins the transformation of the individual into a vampire and 2) allows Dracula to control the individual. VtM vampires are primarily Ricean (Ricean meaning they evoke the vampires of Anne Rice's writing), IE like Ricean vampires they reproduce by draining the person and feeding them some of their blood. (Which is unlike the popular vampire, which merely needs takes a bite or drain the victim, and Stokerian vampire which merely seems to require the feeding of blood from vampire to victim and the ultimate death of the victim) Anyway in Vampire the Masquerade if a vampire just feeds their blood to a mortal or to a vampire, it can create what's known as a blood bond, which allows the vampire to on some level control the individual, and in the case of the mortal it turns them into a ghoul. Who is basically an unaging drug addict who is addicted to a vampire's blood. They will not age provided they keep getting the "Vitae" or blood of their master or any other vampire.
@@LutraLovegoodAs far as i know from reading various campaign books and short stories: A ghoul is working of their own volition lured by friendship, promises of power or coersion. A thrall is forced to follow orders by blood bound or domination
1:15:00 the thing is there: bloodlines is based on revised (the 3rd edition), while social combat and the rules of it came into VtM with the 5th edition.
@@cliffracers9580 You are wrong, it didn't exist until V5. Previous editions handled social scenes by rolling a Skill+Attribute depending on the situation against a difficulty determined by the ST. Social Combat as it exists in V5 is a completely new system that didn't exist in any previous editions of the game.
@@hahahaXDDD Page 155 of VtM 1e has a system called The Facedown as well as Interrogation that is quite literally PC vs. PC or PC vs. NPC using willpower as health, and was included in a lot of early X By Night books. The Facedown just turned into Intimidation as a flat roll like you're describing in Revised, although Interrogation remained even into V20. V5 just expanded it into other rolls so that way there are things like rap battles included.
So, this is a fairly messy thing to grapple with as far as the ttrpg goes, as alot of these systems that systematize certain interactions, most notably in my experience of playing the games being for example; hacking, social combat and more than half of the spellcasting process in mage the ascension is arbitrated by soft rules of the narrative and concept rather than discreet checks of rolls or stats or anything quantitative, like the question of whether or not a mage can create a fireball is more a consequence of the mystical paradigm they believe in as opposed to raw stats (which you also need) in 20th, revised and what little I've read of second, there are examples of rolls given but they aren't really authoritative and in the case of some examples, very dynamic and multi part. Also sometimes even out of examples given for optional hard systems, sometimes there will be multiple variants to choose based on table preference. There are two very different systems for combat in 20th anniversary dark ages vtm, technically 3, because the book posits as an option like, just resolving it based on vibes. The system is called the storyteller system, it's meant to be extremely fluid, dynamic and adjustable to making shit up on the spot to facilitate whatever action the scene requires.
@@cliffracers9580 While this rule does exist, it is vastly different from the social combat in V5 and It is no where to be found in the V20 version of the game (the second most popular edition).
I think Warlockracy's point about CRPG's being games as art's, High Art, is really interesting here. He's not saying they are "the best" his point is they are hugely influential but admired from a distance. He particularly points out the original fallout where everyone kinda nods along that it's amazing and yet few people play it. People retroactively ascribe things to it, whether that be politics, narrative structure or gameplay elements without actually digging into what the experience of playing fallout really is. VTM:B is a huge victim of this. I have had friends ask me if it's worth playing and i end up responding like if someone asks me if I'd recommend reading the Iliad....if the Iliad sometimes bursts into flames while reading it. Meanwhile folks who havnt read it and put an undue weight on it via some weird retvrn ideology while ignoring the man-boy love bubbling under the surface critique modern lit by their head canon standards. Anyway, I share your concerns and do not envy the challenges TCR is facing. I am not looking for a perfect VTM game (because it already exists, its called VTM - Shadows of New York) I just want some level of zeitgeist grabbing as the deb of night radio segments or the earnestness of characters like Chunk.
I played it a few months ago and it's not THAT bad at all compared to Fallout 1, not even near it. It's just an old shooter which is a bit clunky and has a rushed ending
@@jaxter6037 I don't know about Fallout 1 but I think Fallout 2 aged pretty damn well, I like the turn-based combat in it, it's not like the annoying combat of games like Baldurs Gate 1 and 2, or Kotor.
@@jaxter6037 apologies I wasn't too clear but to stick with my metaphor: I love reading the Iliad and playing VTM:B but I'd be lying if I didn't skip the sewer section and the catalogue of ships. I recommend to most people that they do the same. The bursting into flames part was supposed to be a reference to crashes or other bugs which I still can't exterminate with the fan patches.
Something I think Vampyr does well is selling the need to be a vampire to the player. The game isn't perfect but it does deal with two sides, the confrontational and the social. Much like Jonathan having two sides as a healer and a hunter, the game thrusts him into this dual situation where if the player cannot get passed a certain encounter, like a hard boss, they will inevitably start considering feeding because they don't want to keep struggling. They turned the vampire's hunger into the player's hunger to evolve. I think this game is done well if you don't choose to kill absolutely everyone or spare everyone, it serves best when you view yourself/Jonathan as a contextual hunter, making it more impactful when you do feed because you know it's because you HAD to.
While I never played Vampyr, noted video game reviewer Yahtzee does suggest that the game is not difficult enough for this to be an issue. And why suck nice people when there are rando thugs
@@bulletflight Rando enemies do not give nearly the amount of XP needed to level up. Civilians offer it in the thousands while some enemy might give you, like, 20 or less. I also don't fully agree with Yahtzee, unless he's just a better player than me or he played on easy and didn't say it, I was adequately challenged on normal difficulty, and even more on hard obviously.
@@bulletflight he's a weekly reviewer that does voice over, scripts and up until relatively recently would also have to edit his own show it's not exactly a hidden secret that he blows through games he doesn't have the best first impressions with on easiest difficulties and with walkthroughs and frequently doesn't even bother to finish them if they're, to him, not "good enough" because of his weekly schedule
@@chere100yea the launch clans are Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere and Banu Haqim. I think they did say they were planning on adding more post release but i might be misremembering, considering how much of a mess the game's development history has been
@@Ophelia381 yea, i just hope that they introduce some that fundamentally change the role playing aspect. Like Nosferatu or Malkavian or Lasombra or something.
If you haven't already seen, Tim Cain (one of the founders of Troika and a dev on VTM:B) has some great youtube vids about rewarding XP related to exactly what you were discussing when comparing VTMB and Fallout. Tons of vids on other topics too!
Honestly, I'd seen bloodlines 2 and was considering it for the praise the previous game has gotten, especially since I am very much a fan of TTRPGs, but the idea of it having a set protagonist immediately kills any desire for me to play it. For me, if I'm playing a named character I didn't help make in some major way, I'm no longer really roleplaying, I'm acting. I like acting, I consider myself an actor and have been in many plays. Yet I don't really enjoy games where I act. Acting for me is fun because of the audience and seeing the joy I can bring to others from my performance. Acting in a video game, especially a single player one... that's just pointless. If I make the character though, now THAT's roleplaying! I make a person, do a thing, whatever! I can fully enjoy the core idea chosen for me (in the case of a vampire game, being a vampire) and ignore all the rest. Maybe I'll be a quiet mage, wishing to retain humanity, or a savage beast of primal urges, or perhaps an elegant yet deadly assassin, streaking through the night. (Which definition of streaking I'm using is left as an exercise for the reader) Honestly, this video has really just convinced me to check out VTM the ttrpg. If anything, even though it'd require friends and consistent time scheduling, that's way easier than waiting for a theoretical perfect videogame or making it myself. ...I mean, I've also been a game developer for ages, so I could make a vampire game, but that's another story. Great video as always! Love your little tangents, and I enjoy all your videos, whether they be about dialectical materialism or stupid (sexy) vampires. Cheers!
Great video! I largely agree with most of the positions herein. Small note, social combat wasn't omitted from VTMB so much as the mechanic simply hadn't been introduced yet, it is a new addition to 5e that wasn't around in previous versions of the tabletop RPG. Also in regard to putting social combat in RPGs, there's a point towards the end of Tyranny that I think is the best version of this that I've seen to date. It's a whole little social puzzle box- and it only really has like 2-ish outcomes, but getting to the one you want requires both good choices in the dialogue as well as having good social skills. Just passing your speech skills isn't enough, it's also dependent on what you have done throughout the whole game, which of those things you choose to bring up, whether the things you choose not to bring up are things the person you're talking to already knows about, and which exact way you choose to frame certain actions. Unlike something like The Master in Fallout, there isn't just a single correct path to complete the puzzle, and it's a character you've interacted with before, and you have several chances to get to understand their strange, almost alien mindset and attitude before the eventual confrontation. As for VTMB2, I sincerely hope the gameplay we've seen so far is just a case of marketers picking the earliest most generally appealing action focused gameplay, and not something representative of the entire game. Hopefully its more than just an ARPG with a few dialogue options, though the change to the XP system especially feels like a major step back for no good reason.
The timeline of Social Combat being made should have been more apparent to me, honestly, thanks for the info on when it was introduced (sometimes I wish editions were more... forward about what they changed, like there was a "patch notes" alongside the index)-- I suppose that's a strong example of the fact Bloodlines 1 is closer to V20. I'm almost embarrassed that Tyranny didn't spring to mind, given I've referenced that game before and its been on my list to make a video about for a long time. That's a very salient comparison/contrast, yeah.
@@Rosencreutzzz I think the reason most TTRPGs don't really do that is because "editions" are supposed to be seen as standalone iterations of the IP so including a "here's what's new" section might read as anthetical to that idea. WoD5 further compounds this due to... Let's say the *interesting* relationship it has developed to its previous editions. Where V5 was originally released as being a continuation of the timeline but still part of the same Canon, only for Hunter5 and Werewolf5 making such major changes to the gameplay and lore that Paradox flat out claimed that those games were "reimaginings" of HtR and WtA (which as you can imagine caused fan base flame wars that rage to this day) And since V5 is explicitly in continuity with H5 and W5, people are left wondering if it also has been retconed to be a reimagining even if it wasn't released as such. All in all, trying to connect the dots between Bloodlines 1 to V5 is a messy affair at best. Something that will probably carry over to the links between Bloodlines and Bloodlines2
@@Rosencreutzzz The changelog would probably be about as long as the core book itself, VTM 5e is one of those edition changes that are almost a completely different game. Also I'll admit I'm pretty sure the main reason that part of Tyranny sprung to my mind is because of the side note of just shoving an entire Ace Attorney case into an RPG.
@@Rosencreutzzz v20 wasn't out yet by the time of vtmb either (iirc) but all editions before v5 are relatively similar. That said even beyond mechanics, v5 itself is almost in its own universe at this point. There are elements of vtmb that are now considered non-canon to v5, despite the fact that troika made pains to make everything fit into the world, checking things by white wolf etc, though there are references to it on v5. Like even the Kuei Jin, a major element of the plot is considered non-canon now. Loved the video by the way.
37:00 The reason vampires as a metaphor for a parasitic ruling class works for me is because often in vampire stories not eating doesn't lead to death of the vampire, just diminishment. The unquenchable thirst for blood doesn't necessarily give them life it gives them strength and power, similarly the rich don't need an endless flow of wealth siphoned from the working class but it gives them power, and its a power for which they can have no fill. And even in lore where the vampire needs it to live, they are living unnaturally long, the blood they drink affords them countless lifetimes so to cutoff that hunger is only restores an essential human experience; death. The vampire and the rich both siphon from the poor not out of desperate survival, but to afford themselves powers/luxuries far above that of "mortals".
I remember in my first playthrough, as a Malkavian, by the time I reached the haunted hotel, I had a severed hand as a melee weapon. A cheerleader waving that hand in a haunted hotel ratcheted the macabre factor to eleven... and then higher into a realm of absurdity. The hotel is haunted and there is a scary unhinged monster on a prowl. Me. It helped.
I'm a bit worried the VTMB2 setting will ruin one of the aspects I play these games for. Being a monster, or becoming more of a monster. When I was in the end of VTMB I was insta punching zombies to obliteration. Going from some scared person getting beaten and dying multiple times to 6 armed men, to something quite potent. If I'm going from "Nero" to "Nero with devil trigger" that aspect of becoming stronger isn't as pronounced. So my worry is, the combat will feel weightless, no impact. Upgrades will be damage percentage increases, targeting multiple people, without that "impact" of something that truly changes how combat feels and goes... AND I'll have a 4 option Fallout 4 social system waiting for me at the end. I always saw the VTMB combat system being bad at 0 skill as the point. By being strong you remove mechanics made to limit your abilities. Its like being such a good mage in a game that you remove the mana bar. Maybe someone will bite the bullet and make a Mage game that is crazy and does things nobody thinks is possible. Magic systems have become very "object based" and not "stat" based. This has benefits but I think a complex magic system will be appreciated by a lot of people considering Chinese cultivation games seem to have a growing western audience. Lets hope the game is worth the price at launch and if not, hope it goes on sale soon.
I played this game (Masquerade: Bloodlines) in like 2013 for the first time and had a blast. It was janky but fun at the same time, and I got more into the story than I thought I would, so I up and bought the GURPS sourcebook for the tabletop game... which I never played 😢 Now I get a long format video on the ideas behind vampire gameplay? Incredible.
The intro alone had me hooked, fantastic video I want to have high hopes for vtmb2, I really, really do, but I think the devs shot themselves in the foot the moment they named it that. Granted, they didn't know all the production hell would happen, let alone a full concept change, but it's unfortunate to see all the same
I am baffled by the people who complain about “lgbtq+ stuff” in a game franchise that's decidedly goth. Have they ever interacted with anything from that scene?
I think it, actually, reflects poetically on the way goth culture gets consumed on the whole, through objectifications that don't actually interact with it-- through doubling down on the (already questionable) presence of an inherent consumerism to the subculture-- on having "alt girls" to consume but no interest in like actual questioning power or beauty or relations or (god forbid) the act of queering. I get why Goth is often a coat of paint, an aesthetic, more often than it is a way of being, and certainly more than it ever was a "movement"-- but it's doubly fascinating how that results in a fetishization that hopes nothing actually "deviant" remains once you sponge the makeup off and toss the pentagram corset in the laundry bin.
Most of the comments about LGBTQ+ stuff I've seen so far were criticising the fact that Phyre's female model looks very androgenous...which is indeed something worth calling out, considering that we won't be able to customise her appearance. This fact already reduces the visual impact of the very first real choice the player will make in the game. I'm not saying the game should be overly sexualised like the original (there's even a cheat to increase boob size, a bit juvenile honestly), but at least give us two visually distinct choices. Considering that we are in the age where popular media would like people to believe that looking feminine equals being weak and that the only way for a woman to look strong is to acquire masculine characteristics, I don't blame people for being overly critical about it.
@@imjustsomeguy5048 I mean, that sounds like an at least halfways feminist critique and I don't think the folks who are the most obnoxiously vocal about Phyre's androgyny are exactly the ones who are concerned with decoupling gender presentation from expectations of power in favor of the free gender expression of women...
The people who fetishize goth, and goth women mostly and especially, only view it as a vector for sexual fantasies. Goth women are not people they are objects to be claimed, the queerness that is in many ways inherent to goth as a musical subculture and Hell, the music itself, are stripped away and polished until nothing of the original remains except a sanded down 'alternative girl' fetish. The reason for this is of course that the actual reality of goth, the music, the queerness, are too uncomfortable for mass consumption so it resorts to treating goth women like objects to be used and abused for sexual purposes.
A bloodlines game with a party? There's the old "Vampire the Masquearade: Redemption". An action rpg game with a party of characters, too. Has a co-op campaign mod (with minor issues compared to regular singleplayer experience)
Right, but that's a fairly fungible thing to be. Is it a question of setting and using jargon common to VTM? is that all it needs? Does it need to have mechanics that are the same? What if it still uses clans and the same clan names (and thus the lore to a degree) but stops using words like "domain" for city? It's a bit less a question of if, so much as how much.
Hey, I don't think I saw anyone mention it yet, but there's another vampire game that I am quite fond of: V Rising. It's an in-development game whose 1.0 release is coming May 8th, and it's something like a top hack-and-slash crossed with multiplayer basebuilding survival game. You have to hide in the shade from the sunlight, garlic applies a nasty debuff if you stick near it, and silver hurts you if you carry it on your person without protections. Nearly all humans in the game are hostile to you unless you disguise yourself, and your victims have different types and qualities of blood which adds some strategy to your feedings.
Funnily enough, I had no idea what this game was (had heard the name only) until I was like less than a week away from finishing the whole video and I was like "ugh, cool now this game is gonna come out in less than a month and immediately make this video outdated" It wouldn't actually do that, but it was funny to be like oh maybe I could have fit that in.
37:41 I was actually recently thinking about how vampiric hunger being a physical need in many stories causes unforseen issues thematically, since I was recently reading a manga called Ogami Tsumiki. A secondary character in it is a vampire, and he's very blatantly food insecure. Human blood is difficult and expensive to buy under normal circumstances, and the Japanese welfare system only allocates small portions of medical blood to be distributed as food aid to vampire citizens. Said character remarks that his applications are routinely denied because he has a supernatural ability to charm nearby humans, and that he's expected to "get his own food", something that leaves him stressed and constantly starving as he tries to act out being a playboy, feeding in small amounts off of dozens of girls because the alternative is drinking too much and potentially killing a classmate. The resolution of this character arc is *very bad*, he chooses to give up on feeding from his closest friends because he doesn't want to strain their romantic relationship with the intimate-looking feeding, which does nothing to solve anything, but it was a very interesting idea that more definitely could have been done with
Thank you for expressing my same doubts in such an exhaustive and thorough way. The slices of Bloodlines 2 and the information that has been shown so far point to a certain "vampire experience" that is very different from the "Vampire: The Masquerade experience" that made Bloodlines memorable. Some of the choices are puzzling, to say the least: ditching the Beast, the Jihad, and to some extent Clans themselves (reduced to a passive bonus) in favor of the narrative of an Elder who has all the gifts (and is also a cop!) but none of the limitations, weaknesses, or loyalties expected of such a position... Express a certain player-driven power fantasy so at odds with the whole VTM setting that it would have been more believable to have Phyre spark in the sunlight. Maybe it was just unfocused marketing, or maybe this was a different project that was hastily slapped on a Bloodlines sticker by a Paradox in full sunk cost mode... Either way, I think we are looking at something more like Legacy of Cain than Bloodlines.
Nice deep dive into Vampire games. I remember playing the original back in the day, and despite the janky combat it did a good job of feeling like a really unique sort of game. And I fully agree that the experience system was better. I always hate when games give you lots of fun alternatives to just walking up and punching faces, but make face-punching the most rewarding outcome. It's something that feels fresh in my mind playing around in Baldur's Gate 3, which gives you tons of alternatives to just walking up to bad guys and punching them in the face, but those alternatives almost always give less in the way of experience, loot, and other rewards. The hint of an upcoming video on Total War: Warhammer has me very hyped.
It's not actually a game with vampires but "The Council" really nails the social manipulation aspect of vampires. It's hard to describe without spoiling the game but it really shows how the hidden supernatural in a high-class political environment would use their influence and powers to get what they want from both humans and their counterparts.
This was a game I absolutely adored and was floored by its twists and turns. There is some jank, but it definitely entertained me in a way a lot of other adventure games don’t.
God this is such a fantastic exploration of everything that makes vampires, and vampire: the masquerade in particular, so compelling to me. To be a vampire is to cause fear, and to be afraid. This is *the* bloodlines analysis in my book.
I will maintain that the Princes of Darkness-mod for CK3 is THE definitive vampire experience. Only reason I'm not playing it right now is that I am *hoping* that landless gameplay in the next DLC will further the experience to a new level, but that will of course depend both on how that turns out with the DLC and how the modders manage to integrate it. Even though CK3 has some limitations due to the theme of the base game it manages the best to capture what it would be like to be a vampire. In my humble opinion of course.
I sat on this video for almost two weeks, and now that I’ve had the time to sit and enjoy it, I’m delighted. It’s good to hear one of my favorite games of all time getting some love. Your analysis has been really nice to listen to, and I’m hoping that Bloodlines 2 will hold up to the scrutiny and legacy.
Thirty minutes in and you have me glued to the screen. I recently got into wod and now i'm a vampire fan no.1 Edit: Finished the video and I have to agree with you on vtmb2. I usually heard nothing but doom and gloom about vtmb2 but rarely did I ever consider it to be influenced by some unrealistic expectations from fans or a attempt at syndercuterizing vtmb2, even though the signs were there. I feel like if vtmb2 releases and fails people will most definetely take the wrong lesson from why or how it failed.
The moment 'vampire gameplay' came on the screen I thought for some reason "Hitman" and a good round of silent assasin gameplay. Now I'm imagianing what would that team in that engine could do in world of darkness.
About that uncommon vampire weakness that you asked us to guess: Earth Bound? Dracula must rest in soil from his homeland, Transylvania, to regain his full strength. This ties him to his place of origin. The only vampire media I vaguely recall having something similar is Vampire: The Masquerade with the Tzimisce, IIRC.
I think the Hellsing manga/anime might reference is when they are travelling by boat, but I can't remember for sure, that might have just been the coffins.
I could be wrong, but I think social combat wasn't even a mechanic in VTM by the time Bloodlines was made, maybe that is why it wasn't included in amy capacity.
One thing I will say about the section where you talk about VtM 5th edition. One of the things to keep in mind abou that edition of the game is that in and of itself was influenced by Bloodline because how popular bloolines is and was as an entry point for the videogame. Revised edtion of the TTRPG is actually quite diffrent from 5th and its supplements had a big effect on Bloodlines (a lot of the stuff around the sarcophagous and the elders returning is very explictly tied to certain late entries in the lore). A lot of the basics you cover are the same of course but there are mutliple lore and mecahnics descions that you can tie back into Revised. Anyway great video otherwise. EDIT For example there was not social combat in Revised
My favorite vampire gameplay is that in Save to Kill where you have to save humanity from aliens in a bullet hell game so your food source doesn’t run dry. Unfortunately it’s a Flash game that probably doesn’t exist anymore but it was really fun. Jokes aside, loved this breakdown of vampirism as myth and game mechanic. (Save to Kill was fun but the vampire theme was just there for flavor.)
1:09:00 I believe your interpretation is stronger considering how powerful Therese is and how casually she just sends you with barely any info. The threat isn't just the actively malicious "you're a threat and we will pacify you" type, but also a warning against reckless and blind obedience to someone either ignorant to details or apathetic to your condition like what happened with the ocean house hotel mission, and that same message will echo again and again throughout the game.
My issue with Bloodlines 2, is that it seems that on some level both Hardsuit and the Chinese Rooms, didn't and don't understand the setting and what people liked about the first game. to me vtm is best when it's about a bunch of neonates trying to survive in spite of vampire politics. playing as an elder just isn't that for me. I also didn't like Bloodlines for combat, both versions of Bloodllines 2 has too much focus on combat. I don't think for a second that Hardsuit Labs "Bloodline 2" was going to be good, i've heard some rumours that makes it seem like Paradox had a very good reason for cancelling it.
Your video was so enertaining I didn't realise I spent 1h46 listening to it. Granted I was playing video games in the meantime but I really listened to what you said and I think you made a great video
SOTN may have its flaws, but its music... That was the true beauty of the game, and they clearly spent a lot of time on it. Maybe because they felt music would convey the atmosphere better than poorly translated dialogue.
I also recently had a dream (nightmare) involving vampires/hauntings and started compiling thoughts and sources on vampirism etc. Finding old beastiaries and reading up on Victorian Gothic has been a blast. Grateful for this extensive video!
This was such an amazing video to find your channel with, and a wonderfully researched and thought provoking essay! Can’t wait to watch through the rest of your content!
i'm not far in the video so i'm not sure if it's mentioned later but i feel compelled to say that the brilliant comedy tv show What We Do In The Shadows does feature the weird soil from the grave thing, i thought it was odd (and quite funny), but didn't realize it's from the original Dracula novel. once again the tradition of comedy shows being the most accurate depictions of any setting continues.
Small note, but social combat wasn't originally a thing in V:tM. It was introduced more in the Exalted games from White Wolf, though I'll admit I don't know if it was in a previous splatbook. Regardless, Exalted was the first mainline primary rule system that I recall WW having those rules in.
V Rising has the best vampire mechanics and gameplay in any game I've played. You have to deal with sunlight, garlic, silver, get access to beast transformations (rat, wolf, bear etc.) have multiple systems of magic and you get to customize your own gothic vampire castle with an amazing level of variety and customization.
I made a post like right before I uploaded this video somewhere saying "just learned V Rising is coming out in like 8 days, this might be a record for making a video outdated lol" I really should try it out, huh?
Wow, Fevre Dream mentioned, really great book and my favorite kind of Vampirism. Its certainly the "no 6 limbed dragons" of vampire stories... Also great video. I love your eclectic tastes ☺💜
I played that game a long time ago, and it wasn't the hotel that stuck with me as scary. Seeing it did bring back old memories, but the thing that stuck with me as creepy was the sewers.
I haven't really been following the dev news for bloodlines 2, since I'll play it regardless. So whem you mentioned that the protagonist was voiced my heart sank. Bummer
If we're talking about social combat, that wasn't really a thing in the older versions of Vampire. Sure, you had ways of rolling to convince people to do things, but it was more of a social system than a social combat, at least not in a way something like Exalted would have.
Why does Phyre feel the need to bite every ghoul before breaking their neck in the stealth kill? Does TCR think we're going to forget we're a vampire if we dont constantly bite everything around us? It looks so fuckin hokey.
Honestly, Brian Mitsoda *is* the soul of VTMB. There's just no way to cut it. The reason why this feels soulless is precisely because of the writing and atmosphere. I'm one of the "cautiously reserved" folks and yeah.... as much as I want to like this, I really can't fail but feel underwhelmed
Your issue with the Class Metaphor can be solved by simply implying they only need to drink maybe a Pint a day to not only survive but survive comfortable, but because drinking more increases their power, their Dark Magic Vampiric Capital, many are incentivsed to drink over 2 Liters a day. I'm tired of the Sunlike weakness being treated as not optional when it's origins comes form a misinterpretation of the ending of Noseferatu.
One game that i think would have been perfect for the video if it was out when the video came out is V Rising. it has a ton of the hallmarks of a game about being a vampire
So... As someone who really plays the tabletop version of Masquerade. Go learn and immerse yourself in V20. It's a lot better than V5, more complete and in my opinion it nails the idea of "feeling like a vampire". V5 was too focused on the mechanical part of being a vampire. V20 is more focused on the feeling of being one, be it the moments of terror when you're way over your head, or even the moments where you actually feel like an immortal monster of the night.
The truth is that the community isn't angry at VTMB2 or at TCR: the community is angry at Paradox because they forced a change in mood, themes, art, and ideas in the franchise, and the community is taking that out on TCR. Which is very sad to see: they were handed the impossible task of salvaging a game that was in development hell and it's clear they are doing their very best to make a good game, but there's just too much resentment towards Paradox in the community.
Vampire TM Swansong should have been mentioned here. While the game has several flaws, the concept itself does have interesting points. Being an RPG where there is no traditional combat and the gameplay revolves around using your skills in the environment (involving perception, stealth, using illusions, superspeed, super strength feats, knowledge, tech skills etc.). Dialogs and arguments replace combat, where you need to use your skills and powers in conversation to convince (or brainwash) your opponent into doing what you want. The fact that blood resource (biting people) is limited and endangers the masquerade the more you bite (until you ultimately drain people and kill them) forces you to prioritize routes in the game.
I can't agree more with the conclusion : If not to pull from Bloodlines, why even call it bloodlines 2 ? If not to pull from VTM, not use its central themes, why even make it a VTM game ? The game is 20 years old, the fanbase hardly existent in the grand scheme of things. The tabletop is very niche at the crossroad of goth and tabletop players. Why make something for those people that doesn't appeal for those people ? Not that it would automatically make it a good game, nor doing something different would make it a bad game. But it's... I don't know. It's like saying you're going to make a "Day of the tentacle 2" and it's a battle royal FPS. It could be the better battle royal FPS for all I know, I couldn't care less for such a game, why unearth the name for that ? Or for a cinema parallel, making a citizen kane 2, but it's all about giant robots and Rosebud is the evil computer AI. I don't know, I can't even get interested in a game that tries to sell me Batman Arkam city. It could be the best Batman game ever, but if I look at bloodlines it's not to play a batman game.
While there are definitely a bunch of superficial elements that appealed to me with the Hardsuit version over the current one, I'm still rooting for TCR to pull this off. Even an ARPG with fun combat and a well written VtM narrative would still be a huge win to me!
Considering their past output I wonder if Chinese Room will focus on combat or on the the talking, they havent really made stuff in either genre? I mean their most notable things are game where you at most solve some puzzles and listen to people talk. When Eidos made the prequel to Deus Ex they specifically focused on combat and stealth because they knew they could improve upon that, but that team also had experience there. I feel like at best Bloodlines 2 is gonna be Human Revolution, but I fear we wont even get that with the horrible dev cycle, inexperienced devs and none of the writers they got specifically to claim that they will do the story justice working there anymore.
@@laurencegagniuc4806 That was a Despicable Me reference, yes. Couldn't think of any other people called Kevin in the moment. Though i now realize i could have made a reference to Home Alone as well.
It makes me so happy that all these years later people are still finding my walkthrough video helpful. Thanks for the mention, and great job making this incredible video ❤️❤
I've personally sent it to like 4 different people I know who were like "yay vampires... wait wtf :c" so I can attest to the fact it's an effective guide and gets people to enjoy the game.
I think my favourite take on vampires as (unsubtle) class metaphor which makes the hunger themes work is the TTRPG Brinkwood, where people become vampires by drinking an alchemical potion of blood and silver, but if they don't take it regularly they...become normal humans again.
They could give it up at any time, but because they're the kind of people who'd drink blood to gain power, the idea of doing so is absolutely unthinkable to them.
I like this because a lot of Vampires As A Class Metaphor stuff *and* discussions of real life class issues often ignore or overlook the fact that the wealth hoarded by the ruling class can be lost, taken, reappropriated, or (maybe most importantly) willingly relinquished, and the ruling class makes the choice to not let that happen every day.
If a worker can’t work, they risk homelessness and death. If a property owner can’t own property, they become a worker. Their fear of that possibility is a major driving force behind their most horrific actions.
Are you familiar with "Bones and All"?
@KickinRadTopHat
I'm not saying you're wrong but metaphors only need to work in as far as what any specific story is trying to say.
If a story wants to explore how the elite is exploiting everyone and losing their humanity in the process I don't think it's necessary to consider "but what if a vampire was poor". Things like their sensitivity to sunlight also makes sense in the context of nobility hiding away in castles.
If you want to use vampirism as a metaphor for addiction it's worth exploring how it affects the rich and poor differently (like the amount access, wether they're punished for doing it, the effect it has on people around them etc.) but in that context the rules for it can change.
The Vampy-Pathologic connection is really unacnny when you start thinking about it
Doctor returns from a far away land back to his homeland but his family has been killed, he is a rational scientist trying to stop an epidemic that is supernatural in nature. He has to kill people and spill blood to achieve his goals, do research and deal with aristocrats, use his social powers to manipulate people. At the end something must be sacrificed to achieve victory.
I grabbed the game on a whim earlier this year and was honestly shocked to find how much the plague related systems resemble Pathologic. Its probably the games biggest influence after VTM.
"There is no one out there arguing zombies count as vampires"
You underestimate both my pedantry and the absolute fucking soup that is folklore about the undead.
There are absolutelt vampires that count as zombies and zombies that count as vampirea, the line is blurry as always.
@@notsae66 “I Am Legend” has entered the chat
It is kind of funny that for the early mentions of Fallout 3 in the video it fails to recall, especially in the line about undead cannibals, that Fallout 3 has a clan of vampires living in a dark subway. Even better: if you start really digging into the vampire clan as part of their quest, you learn that they are ethical cannibals. They know they aren’t actually vampires, but they find that using vampirism as a concept to direct the dark hunger for flesh to a much more renewable resource to be the best option for reducing harm.
Fallout 3 wasn’t afraid explore unique themes, and exploring side content feels like reading a book of short stories.
The fact that this video came out on bat appreciation day makes me giggle.
I only realized this like legit half an hour ago, but I'm going to lie from now on and say that it was intentional.
As for Dracula's abilities I have no clue but one thing that's rarely portrayed is full on shapeshifting most depictions of shapeshifting vampires only has them turn into bats, but in the original book he could turn into mist, dogs, bats and wolves. That's actually in keeping with old myths of the strigoi. Lots of monsters involved turning into wolves because historically europeans hated and feared wolves. I also have not watched any Dracula media, i did read an article on Count Dracula abilities and I find it fascinating that many of his abilities can be found in Vampire: The Masquerade)
One specific one is Blood Bonding, or in the article known as "Baptism of the Blood" which in Bram Stoker's Dracula does two things, 1) it begins the transformation of the individual into a vampire and 2) allows Dracula to control the individual.
VtM vampires are primarily Ricean (Ricean meaning they evoke the vampires of Anne Rice's writing), IE like Ricean vampires they reproduce by draining the person and feeding them some of their blood. (Which is unlike the popular vampire, which merely needs takes a bite or drain the victim, and Stokerian vampire which merely seems to require the feeding of blood from vampire to victim and the ultimate death of the victim)
Anyway in Vampire the Masquerade if a vampire just feeds their blood to a mortal or to a vampire, it can create what's known as a blood bond, which allows the vampire to on some level control the individual, and in the case of the mortal it turns them into a ghoul. Who is basically an unaging drug addict who is addicted to a vampire's blood. They will not age provided they keep getting the "Vitae" or blood of their master or any other vampire.
In some VtM games those are referred to as thralls, not ghouls.
@@LutraLovegoodAs far as i know from reading various campaign books and short stories: A ghoul is working of their own volition lured by friendship, promises of power or coersion. A thrall is forced to follow orders by blood bound or domination
symphony of the night has plenty of transformations
Going from your normal voice to your Shaggy impression was a jumpscare lol
That's just what I sound like when The Beast wins. You can hear the strain in returning to composure.
It was a delight and an honor to work on this script. Great video, as usual!
“What if Bloodlines got the extra year the devs wanted” is one of those what ifs that I’ve lost sleep over
It's kinda funny that in an almost two hours long video about vampires the part that made me go "Oh, god no" was hearing the word "Snyderizing".
1:15:00 the thing is there: bloodlines is based on revised (the 3rd edition), while social combat and the rules of it came into VtM with the 5th edition.
Social Combat has existed since 1st Edition VtM.
@@cliffracers9580 You are wrong, it didn't exist until V5. Previous editions handled social scenes by rolling a Skill+Attribute depending on the situation against a difficulty determined by the ST. Social Combat as it exists in V5 is a completely new system that didn't exist in any previous editions of the game.
@@hahahaXDDD Page 155 of VtM 1e has a system called The Facedown as well as Interrogation that is quite literally PC vs. PC or PC vs. NPC using willpower as health, and was included in a lot of early X By Night books. The Facedown just turned into Intimidation as a flat roll like you're describing in Revised, although Interrogation remained even into V20.
V5 just expanded it into other rolls so that way there are things like rap battles included.
So, this is a fairly messy thing to grapple with as far as the ttrpg goes, as alot of these systems that systematize certain interactions, most notably in my experience of playing the games being for example; hacking, social combat and more than half of the spellcasting process in mage the ascension is arbitrated by soft rules of the narrative and concept rather than discreet checks of rolls or stats or anything quantitative, like the question of whether or not a mage can create a fireball is more a consequence of the mystical paradigm they believe in as opposed to raw stats (which you also need) in 20th, revised and what little I've read of second, there are examples of rolls given but they aren't really authoritative and in the case of some examples, very dynamic and multi part. Also sometimes even out of examples given for optional hard systems, sometimes there will be multiple variants to choose based on table preference. There are two very different systems for combat in 20th anniversary dark ages vtm, technically 3, because the book posits as an option like, just resolving it based on vibes. The system is called the storyteller system, it's meant to be extremely fluid, dynamic and adjustable to making shit up on the spot to facilitate whatever action the scene requires.
@@cliffracers9580 While this rule does exist, it is vastly different from the social combat in V5 and It is no where to be found in the V20 version of the game (the second most popular edition).
I think Warlockracy's point about CRPG's being games as art's, High Art, is really interesting here. He's not saying they are "the best" his point is they are hugely influential but admired from a distance. He particularly points out the original fallout where everyone kinda nods along that it's amazing and yet few people play it. People retroactively ascribe things to it, whether that be politics, narrative structure or gameplay elements without actually digging into what the experience of playing fallout really is.
VTM:B is a huge victim of this. I have had friends ask me if it's worth playing and i end up responding like if someone asks me if I'd recommend reading the Iliad....if the Iliad sometimes bursts into flames while reading it. Meanwhile folks who havnt read it and put an undue weight on it via some weird retvrn ideology while ignoring the man-boy love bubbling under the surface critique modern lit by their head canon standards.
Anyway, I share your concerns and do not envy the challenges TCR is facing. I am not looking for a perfect VTM game (because it already exists, its called VTM - Shadows of New York) I just want some level of zeitgeist grabbing as the deb of night radio segments or the earnestness of characters like Chunk.
I played it a few months ago and it's not THAT bad at all compared to Fallout 1, not even near it. It's just an old shooter which is a bit clunky and has a rushed ending
lll
@@jaxter6037
I don't know about Fallout 1 but I think Fallout 2 aged pretty damn well, I like the turn-based combat in it, it's not like the annoying combat of games like Baldurs Gate 1 and 2, or Kotor.
@@jaxter6037 apologies I wasn't too clear but to stick with my metaphor: I love reading the Iliad and playing VTM:B but I'd be lying if I didn't skip the sewer section and the catalogue of ships. I recommend to most people that they do the same. The bursting into flames part was supposed to be a reference to crashes or other bugs which I still can't exterminate with the fan patches.
Do you remember what video that was? I think I heard it, but I forgot which video that was.
Something I think Vampyr does well is selling the need to be a vampire to the player. The game isn't perfect but it does deal with two sides, the confrontational and the social. Much like Jonathan having two sides as a healer and a hunter, the game thrusts him into this dual situation where if the player cannot get passed a certain encounter, like a hard boss, they will inevitably start considering feeding because they don't want to keep struggling. They turned the vampire's hunger into the player's hunger to evolve. I think this game is done well if you don't choose to kill absolutely everyone or spare everyone, it serves best when you view yourself/Jonathan as a contextual hunter, making it more impactful when you do feed because you know it's because you HAD to.
While I never played Vampyr, noted video game reviewer Yahtzee does suggest that the game is not difficult enough for this to be an issue. And why suck nice people when there are rando thugs
@@bulletflight Rando enemies do not give nearly the amount of XP needed to level up. Civilians offer it in the thousands while some enemy might give you, like, 20 or less. I also don't fully agree with Yahtzee, unless he's just a better player than me or he played on easy and didn't say it, I was adequately challenged on normal difficulty, and even more on hard obviously.
@@bulletflight he's a weekly reviewer that does voice over, scripts and up until relatively recently would also have to edit his own show
it's not exactly a hidden secret that he blows through games he doesn't have the best first impressions with on easiest difficulties and with walkthroughs and frequently doesn't even bother to finish them if they're, to him, not "good enough" because of his weekly schedule
Not being able to be a Toreador in the new upcoming game is already a bummer.
Wait, you can't? But they're one of my favorites! :(
@@chere100yea the launch clans are Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere and Banu Haqim. I think they did say they were planning on adding more post release but i might be misremembering, considering how much of a mess the game's development history has been
@THeKallOfCtulu if I remember we'll they chose those to present playstyle. Control caster, warrior, damage caster, thief/assassin gameplay.
Nosferatu better be an option lol
@@Ophelia381 yea, i just hope that they introduce some that fundamentally change the role playing aspect. Like Nosferatu or Malkavian or Lasombra or something.
If you haven't already seen, Tim Cain (one of the founders of Troika and a dev on VTM:B) has some great youtube vids about rewarding XP related to exactly what you were discussing when comparing VTMB and Fallout. Tons of vids on other topics too!
Honestly, I'd seen bloodlines 2 and was considering it for the praise the previous game has gotten, especially since I am very much a fan of TTRPGs, but the idea of it having a set protagonist immediately kills any desire for me to play it.
For me, if I'm playing a named character I didn't help make in some major way, I'm no longer really roleplaying, I'm acting. I like acting, I consider myself an actor and have been in many plays. Yet I don't really enjoy games where I act. Acting for me is fun because of the audience and seeing the joy I can bring to others from my performance. Acting in a video game, especially a single player one... that's just pointless.
If I make the character though, now THAT's roleplaying! I make a person, do a thing, whatever! I can fully enjoy the core idea chosen for me (in the case of a vampire game, being a vampire) and ignore all the rest. Maybe I'll be a quiet mage, wishing to retain humanity, or a savage beast of primal urges, or perhaps an elegant yet deadly assassin, streaking through the night. (Which definition of streaking I'm using is left as an exercise for the reader)
Honestly, this video has really just convinced me to check out VTM the ttrpg. If anything, even though it'd require friends and consistent time scheduling, that's way easier than waiting for a theoretical perfect videogame or making it myself.
...I mean, I've also been a game developer for ages, so I could make a vampire game, but that's another story.
Great video as always! Love your little tangents, and I enjoy all your videos, whether they be about dialectical materialism or stupid (sexy) vampires. Cheers!
There actually is another Vampire the Masquerade game, VTM: Swansong, that takes a crack at Social Combat. It's the game's main mechanic.
Great video! I largely agree with most of the positions herein. Small note, social combat wasn't omitted from VTMB so much as the mechanic simply hadn't been introduced yet, it is a new addition to 5e that wasn't around in previous versions of the tabletop RPG.
Also in regard to putting social combat in RPGs, there's a point towards the end of Tyranny that I think is the best version of this that I've seen to date.
It's a whole little social puzzle box- and it only really has like 2-ish outcomes, but getting to the one you want requires both good choices in the dialogue as well as having good social skills. Just passing your speech skills isn't enough, it's also dependent on what you have done throughout the whole game, which of those things you choose to bring up, whether the things you choose not to bring up are things the person you're talking to already knows about, and which exact way you choose to frame certain actions.
Unlike something like The Master in Fallout, there isn't just a single correct path to complete the puzzle, and it's a character you've interacted with before, and you have several chances to get to understand their strange, almost alien mindset and attitude before the eventual confrontation.
As for VTMB2, I sincerely hope the gameplay we've seen so far is just a case of marketers picking the earliest most generally appealing action focused gameplay, and not something representative of the entire game. Hopefully its more than just an ARPG with a few dialogue options, though the change to the XP system especially feels like a major step back for no good reason.
The timeline of Social Combat being made should have been more apparent to me, honestly, thanks for the info on when it was introduced (sometimes I wish editions were more... forward about what they changed, like there was a "patch notes" alongside the index)-- I suppose that's a strong example of the fact Bloodlines 1 is closer to V20.
I'm almost embarrassed that Tyranny didn't spring to mind, given I've referenced that game before and its been on my list to make a video about for a long time. That's a very salient comparison/contrast, yeah.
@@Rosencreutzzz I think the reason most TTRPGs don't really do that is because "editions" are supposed to be seen as standalone iterations of the IP so including a "here's what's new" section might read as anthetical to that idea.
WoD5 further compounds this due to... Let's say the *interesting* relationship it has developed to its previous editions. Where V5 was originally released as being a continuation of the timeline but still part of the same Canon, only for Hunter5 and Werewolf5 making such major changes to the gameplay and lore that Paradox flat out claimed that those games were "reimaginings" of HtR and WtA (which as you can imagine caused fan base flame wars that rage to this day) And since V5 is explicitly in continuity with H5 and W5, people are left wondering if it also has been retconed to be a reimagining even if it wasn't released as such.
All in all, trying to connect the dots between Bloodlines 1 to V5 is a messy affair at best. Something that will probably carry over to the links between Bloodlines and Bloodlines2
@@Rosencreutzzz The changelog would probably be about as long as the core book itself, VTM 5e is one of those edition changes that are almost a completely different game.
Also I'll admit I'm pretty sure the main reason that part of Tyranny sprung to my mind is because of the side note of just shoving an entire Ace Attorney case into an RPG.
@@Rosencreutzzz v20 wasn't out yet by the time of vtmb either (iirc) but all editions before v5 are relatively similar. That said even beyond mechanics, v5 itself is almost in its own universe at this point. There are elements of vtmb that are now considered non-canon to v5, despite the fact that troika made pains to make everything fit into the world, checking things by white wolf etc, though there are references to it on v5. Like even the Kuei Jin, a major element of the plot is considered non-canon now.
Loved the video by the way.
It should be noted of the Oblivion Vampires that they are all of a single clan. The "Stages" is the particular clan power of shapeshifting.
They must have amnesia, they forgot I'm HIM.
I wasn't expecting hearing you in this video, Fredda. I literally looked down like "wait a second"
Hey its the roguelike guy
Alright Carmelo Hayes :p
“Games that feature vampires” shows Vampire Survivors, which hilariously has zero vampires in it
37:00 The reason vampires as a metaphor for a parasitic ruling class works for me is because often in vampire stories not eating doesn't lead to death of the vampire, just diminishment. The unquenchable thirst for blood doesn't necessarily give them life it gives them strength and power, similarly the rich don't need an endless flow of wealth siphoned from the working class but it gives them power, and its a power for which they can have no fill. And even in lore where the vampire needs it to live, they are living unnaturally long, the blood they drink affords them countless lifetimes so to cutoff that hunger is only restores an essential human experience; death. The vampire and the rich both siphon from the poor not out of desperate survival, but to afford themselves powers/luxuries far above that of "mortals".
Simply cannot believe how consistently your videos are relevant to my interests and tastes! They're always a treat
I remember in my first playthrough, as a Malkavian, by the time I reached the haunted hotel, I had a severed hand as a melee weapon. A cheerleader waving that hand in a haunted hotel ratcheted the macabre factor to eleven... and then higher into a realm of absurdity. The hotel is haunted and there is a scary unhinged monster on a prowl. Me. It helped.
Eternal memory to Salvador Allende!✊
I'm with you... but why?
@@Rosencreutzzzwhy not
just felt like it
just consider this a comment for the algorithm and ofcourse for salvador allende a class hero
@@PakBallandSami lmao what? I love this comment. Eternal memory to comrade Allende!
por un momento pensé que podia haber un juego de intrigas vampiricas ambientado durante los años de la UP que aún no conocía
I'm a bit worried the VTMB2 setting will ruin one of the aspects I play these games for. Being a monster, or becoming more of a monster. When I was in the end of VTMB I was insta punching zombies to obliteration. Going from some scared person getting beaten and dying multiple times to 6 armed men, to something quite potent. If I'm going from "Nero" to "Nero with devil trigger" that aspect of becoming stronger isn't as pronounced. So my worry is, the combat will feel weightless, no impact. Upgrades will be damage percentage increases, targeting multiple people, without that "impact" of something that truly changes how combat feels and goes... AND I'll have a 4 option Fallout 4 social system waiting for me at the end. I always saw the VTMB combat system being bad at 0 skill as the point. By being strong you remove mechanics made to limit your abilities. Its like being such a good mage in a game that you remove the mana bar.
Maybe someone will bite the bullet and make a Mage game that is crazy and does things nobody thinks is possible. Magic systems have become very "object based" and not "stat" based. This has benefits but I think a complex magic system will be appreciated by a lot of people considering Chinese cultivation games seem to have a growing western audience. Lets hope the game is worth the price at launch and if not, hope it goes on sale soon.
I played this game (Masquerade: Bloodlines) in like 2013 for the first time and had a blast. It was janky but fun at the same time, and I got more into the story than I thought I would, so I up and bought the GURPS sourcebook for the tabletop game... which I never played 😢
Now I get a long format video on the ideas behind vampire gameplay? Incredible.
The intro alone had me hooked, fantastic video
I want to have high hopes for vtmb2, I really, really do, but I think the devs shot themselves in the foot the moment they named it that. Granted, they didn't know all the production hell would happen, let alone a full concept change, but it's unfortunate to see all the same
I am baffled by the people who complain about “lgbtq+ stuff” in a game franchise that's decidedly goth. Have they ever interacted with anything from that scene?
To be fair, there is a large subsect of that scene that are straight up neo-nazis.
I think it, actually, reflects poetically on the way goth culture gets consumed on the whole, through objectifications that don't actually interact with it-- through doubling down on the (already questionable) presence of an inherent consumerism to the subculture-- on having "alt girls" to consume but no interest in like actual questioning power or beauty or relations or (god forbid) the act of queering.
I get why Goth is often a coat of paint, an aesthetic, more often than it is a way of being, and certainly more than it ever was a "movement"-- but it's doubly fascinating how that results in a fetishization that hopes nothing actually "deviant" remains once you sponge the makeup off and toss the pentagram corset in the laundry bin.
Most of the comments about LGBTQ+ stuff I've seen so far were criticising the fact that Phyre's female model looks very androgenous...which is indeed something worth calling out, considering that we won't be able to customise her appearance. This fact already reduces the visual impact of the very first real choice the player will make in the game. I'm not saying the game should be overly sexualised like the original (there's even a cheat to increase boob size, a bit juvenile honestly), but at least give us two visually distinct choices. Considering that we are in the age where popular media would like people to believe that looking feminine equals being weak and that the only way for a woman to look strong is to acquire masculine characteristics, I don't blame people for being overly critical about it.
@@imjustsomeguy5048 I mean, that sounds like an at least halfways feminist critique and I don't think the folks who are the most obnoxiously vocal about Phyre's androgyny are exactly the ones who are concerned with decoupling gender presentation from expectations of power in favor of the free gender expression of women...
The people who fetishize goth, and goth women mostly and especially, only view it as a vector for sexual fantasies. Goth women are not people they are objects to be claimed, the queerness that is in many ways inherent to goth as a musical subculture and Hell, the music itself, are stripped away and polished until nothing of the original remains except a sanded down 'alternative girl' fetish. The reason for this is of course that the actual reality of goth, the music, the queerness, are too uncomfortable for mass consumption so it resorts to treating goth women like objects to be used and abused for sexual purposes.
A bloodlines game with a party?
There's the old "Vampire the Masquearade: Redemption".
An action rpg game with a party of characters, too.
Has a co-op campaign mod (with minor issues compared to regular singleplayer experience)
VTMB2 does at some point need to be a VTM game, it's in the name.
Right, but that's a fairly fungible thing to be. Is it a question of setting and using jargon common to VTM? is that all it needs? Does it need to have mechanics that are the same? What if it still uses clans and the same clan names (and thus the lore to a degree) but stops using words like "domain" for city?
It's a bit less a question of if, so much as how much.
now hold on
there are no vampires featured in the video game vampire survivors
It's called vampire "survivors, if there were vampires there wouldn't be survivors.
We don't know that for sure, I'm still looking for them but all I've found are weird floating robes and floor turkey (it's delicious)
There's no cheese in cheesecake either. I was slightly sad learning that as a young un.
There are no yakuza in yakuza zero. Just think about it
@@BS-jw7nf Well that's why it's called that, there's Zero Yakuza
Hey, I don't think I saw anyone mention it yet, but there's another vampire game that I am quite fond of: V Rising. It's an in-development game whose 1.0 release is coming May 8th, and it's something like a top hack-and-slash crossed with multiplayer basebuilding survival game. You have to hide in the shade from the sunlight, garlic applies a nasty debuff if you stick near it, and silver hurts you if you carry it on your person without protections. Nearly all humans in the game are hostile to you unless you disguise yourself, and your victims have different types and qualities of blood which adds some strategy to your feedings.
Funnily enough, I had no idea what this game was (had heard the name only) until I was like less than a week away from finishing the whole video and I was like "ugh, cool now this game is gonna come out in less than a month and immediately make this video outdated"
It wouldn't actually do that, but it was funny to be like oh maybe I could have fit that in.
37:41 I was actually recently thinking about how vampiric hunger being a physical need in many stories causes unforseen issues thematically, since I was recently reading a manga called Ogami Tsumiki. A secondary character in it is a vampire, and he's very blatantly food insecure. Human blood is difficult and expensive to buy under normal circumstances, and the Japanese welfare system only allocates small portions of medical blood to be distributed as food aid to vampire citizens. Said character remarks that his applications are routinely denied because he has a supernatural ability to charm nearby humans, and that he's expected to "get his own food", something that leaves him stressed and constantly starving as he tries to act out being a playboy, feeding in small amounts off of dozens of girls because the alternative is drinking too much and potentially killing a classmate.
The resolution of this character arc is *very bad*, he chooses to give up on feeding from his closest friends because he doesn't want to strain their romantic relationship with the intimate-looking feeding, which does nothing to solve anything, but it was a very interesting idea that more definitely could have been done with
Thank you for expressing my same doubts in such an exhaustive and thorough way. The slices of Bloodlines 2 and the information that has been shown so far point to a certain "vampire experience" that is very different from the "Vampire: The Masquerade experience" that made Bloodlines memorable.
Some of the choices are puzzling, to say the least: ditching the Beast, the Jihad, and to some extent Clans themselves (reduced to a passive bonus) in favor of the narrative of an Elder who has all the gifts (and is also a cop!) but none of the limitations, weaknesses, or loyalties expected of such a position... Express a certain player-driven power fantasy so at odds with the whole VTM setting that it would have been more believable to have Phyre spark in the sunlight.
Maybe it was just unfocused marketing, or maybe this was a different project that was hastily slapped on a Bloodlines sticker by a Paradox in full sunk cost mode... Either way, I think we are looking at something more like Legacy of Cain than Bloodlines.
ççll
Nice deep dive into Vampire games. I remember playing the original back in the day, and despite the janky combat it did a good job of feeling like a really unique sort of game. And I fully agree that the experience system was better. I always hate when games give you lots of fun alternatives to just walking up and punching faces, but make face-punching the most rewarding outcome. It's something that feels fresh in my mind playing around in Baldur's Gate 3, which gives you tons of alternatives to just walking up to bad guys and punching them in the face, but those alternatives almost always give less in the way of experience, loot, and other rewards.
The hint of an upcoming video on Total War: Warhammer has me very hyped.
It's not actually a game with vampires but "The Council" really nails the social manipulation aspect of vampires. It's hard to describe without spoiling the game but it really shows how the hidden supernatural in a high-class political environment would use their influence and powers to get what they want from both humans and their counterparts.
This was a game I absolutely adored and was floored by its twists and turns.
There is some jank, but it definitely entertained me in a way a lot of other adventure games don’t.
God this is such a fantastic exploration of everything that makes vampires, and vampire: the masquerade in particular, so compelling to me. To be a vampire is to cause fear, and to be afraid. This is *the* bloodlines analysis in my book.
I will maintain that the Princes of Darkness-mod for CK3 is THE definitive vampire experience. Only reason I'm not playing it right now is that I am *hoping* that landless gameplay in the next DLC will further the experience to a new level, but that will of course depend both on how that turns out with the DLC and how the modders manage to integrate it.
Even though CK3 has some limitations due to the theme of the base game it manages the best to capture what it would be like to be a vampire. In my humble opinion of course.
I sat on this video for almost two weeks, and now that I’ve had the time to sit and enjoy it, I’m delighted. It’s good to hear one of my favorite games of all time getting some love. Your analysis has been really nice to listen to, and I’m hoping that Bloodlines 2 will hold up to the scrutiny and legacy.
Thirty minutes in and you have me glued to the screen. I recently got into wod and now i'm a vampire fan no.1
Edit: Finished the video and I have to agree with you on vtmb2. I usually heard nothing but doom and gloom about vtmb2 but rarely did I ever consider it to be influenced by some unrealistic expectations from fans or a attempt at syndercuterizing vtmb2, even though the signs were there. I feel like if vtmb2 releases and fails people will most definetely take the wrong lesson from why or how it failed.
The moment 'vampire gameplay' came on the screen I thought for some reason "Hitman" and a good round of silent assasin gameplay. Now I'm imagianing what would that team in that engine could do in world of darkness.
Video came out exactly as I was going out to lunch like fate
Playing as a historical figure (Blade)
Loool
Also the dog joke was great, I lived these little details!
Aw, I wanted to hear you talk about Vampire the Masquerade Night Road!
About that uncommon vampire weakness that you asked us to guess:
Earth Bound?
Dracula must rest in soil from his homeland, Transylvania, to regain his full strength. This ties him to his place of origin.
The only vampire media I vaguely recall having something similar is Vampire: The Masquerade with the Tzimisce, IIRC.
It was in Courtney Crumrin too, iirc.
I think the Hellsing manga/anime might reference is when they are travelling by boat, but I can't remember for sure, that might have just been the coffins.
this video finally got me to play VTMB (even if it took me 6 months), so thank you! also a fantastic video too
I could be wrong, but I think social combat wasn't even a mechanic in VTM by the time Bloodlines was made, maybe that is why it wasn't included in amy capacity.
One thing I will say about the section where you talk about VtM 5th edition. One of the things to keep in mind abou that edition of the game is that in and of itself was influenced by Bloodline because how popular bloolines is and was as an entry point for the videogame. Revised edtion of the TTRPG is actually quite diffrent from 5th and its supplements had a big effect on Bloodlines (a lot of the stuff around the sarcophagous and the elders returning is very explictly tied to certain late entries in the lore). A lot of the basics you cover are the same of course but there are mutliple lore and mecahnics descions that you can tie back into Revised. Anyway great video otherwise.
EDIT For example there was not social combat in Revised
I badly want more vampire focused games (especially where I can be a vampire). I love vampires, and feel they're criminally underused in video games.
My favorite vampire gameplay is that in Save to Kill where you have to save humanity from aliens in a bullet hell game so your food source doesn’t run dry. Unfortunately it’s a Flash game that probably doesn’t exist anymore but it was really fun.
Jokes aside, loved this breakdown of vampirism as myth and game mechanic. (Save to Kill was fun but the vampire theme was just there for flavor.)
1:09:00 I believe your interpretation is stronger considering how powerful Therese is and how casually she just sends you with barely any info. The threat isn't just the actively malicious "you're a threat and we will pacify you" type, but also a warning against reckless and blind obedience to someone either ignorant to details or apathetic to your condition like what happened with the ocean house hotel mission, and that same message will echo again and again throughout the game.
My issue with Bloodlines 2, is that it seems that on some level both Hardsuit and the Chinese Rooms, didn't and don't understand the setting and what people liked about the first game.
to me vtm is best when it's about a bunch of neonates trying to survive in spite of vampire politics. playing as an elder just isn't that for me.
I also didn't like Bloodlines for combat, both versions of Bloodllines 2 has too much focus on combat.
I don't think for a second that Hardsuit Labs "Bloodline 2" was going to be good, i've heard some rumours that makes it seem like Paradox had a very good reason for cancelling it.
Your video was so enertaining I didn't realise I spent 1h46 listening to it. Granted I was playing video games in the meantime but I really listened to what you said and I think you made a great video
SOTN may have its flaws, but its music... That was the true beauty of the game, and they clearly spent a lot of time on it. Maybe because they felt music would convey the atmosphere better than poorly translated dialogue.
I also recently had a dream (nightmare) involving vampires/hauntings and started compiling thoughts and sources on vampirism etc. Finding old beastiaries and reading up on Victorian Gothic has been a blast. Grateful for this extensive video!
This was such an amazing video to find your channel with, and a wonderfully researched and thought provoking essay! Can’t wait to watch through the rest of your content!
Just in time for my lunch break!
i'm not far in the video so i'm not sure if it's mentioned later but i feel compelled to say that the brilliant comedy tv show What We Do In The Shadows does feature the weird soil from the grave thing, i thought it was odd (and quite funny), but didn't realize it's from the original Dracula novel. once again the tradition of comedy shows being the most accurate depictions of any setting continues.
I'm watching this video and reminisce about VTMB, all the while reading v5 rulebook and it makes watching the video quite a delightful experience.
I like the way you analyze things this is amazing thank you
Babe wake up, a new Rosencreutz video is up
Small note, but social combat wasn't originally a thing in V:tM.
It was introduced more in the Exalted games from White Wolf, though I'll admit I don't know if it was in a previous splatbook. Regardless, Exalted was the first mainline primary rule system that I recall WW having those rules in.
V Rising has the best vampire mechanics and gameplay in any game I've played. You have to deal with sunlight, garlic, silver, get access to beast transformations (rat, wolf, bear etc.) have multiple systems of magic and you get to customize your own gothic vampire castle with an amazing level of variety and customization.
I made a post like right before I uploaded this video somewhere saying "just learned V Rising is coming out in like 8 days, this might be a record for making a video outdated lol"
I really should try it out, huh?
@@Rosencreutzzz Absolutely. I haven't been able to put it down!
thanks. this video will help me make my own vampire video game.
3:49 Woodcarving Partita!
Man i love your vids and i love your style and am always happy whenever someone talks about ticks
Wow, Fevre Dream mentioned, really great book and my favorite kind of Vampirism. Its certainly the "no 6 limbed dragons" of vampire stories... Also great video. I love your eclectic tastes ☺💜
I played that game a long time ago, and it wasn't the hotel that stuck with me as scary. Seeing it did bring back old memories, but the thing that stuck with me as creepy was the sewers.
Wonderful video and essay.
I haven't really been following the dev news for bloodlines 2, since I'll play it regardless. So whem you mentioned that the protagonist was voiced my heart sank. Bummer
If we're talking about social combat, that wasn't really a thing in the older versions of Vampire. Sure, you had ways of rolling to convince people to do things, but it was more of a social system than a social combat, at least not in a way something like Exalted would have.
Why does Phyre feel the need to bite every ghoul before breaking their neck in the stealth kill? Does TCR think we're going to forget we're a vampire if we dont constantly bite everything around us?
It looks so fuckin hokey.
Honestly, Brian Mitsoda *is* the soul of VTMB. There's just no way to cut it. The reason why this feels soulless is precisely because of the writing and atmosphere. I'm one of the "cautiously reserved" folks and yeah.... as much as I want to like this, I really can't fail but feel underwhelmed
I got jumpscared by how accurate that shaggy impression was
Your issue with the Class Metaphor can be solved by simply implying they only need to drink maybe a Pint a day to not only survive but survive comfortable, but because drinking more increases their power, their Dark Magic Vampiric Capital, many are incentivsed to drink over 2 Liters a day.
I'm tired of the Sunlike weakness being treated as not optional when it's origins comes form a misinterpretation of the ending of Noseferatu.
When I play Fallout I always hack the terminal next to a safe first, then intentionally don’t disengage the lock so I can pick it afterwards
I understood only about half of this video but somehow I feel like I learned something new anyway
The creators of disco elysium would make a good vampire game.
One game that i think would have been perfect for the video if it was out when the video came out is V Rising.
it has a ton of the hallmarks of a game about being a vampire
So... As someone who really plays the tabletop version of Masquerade. Go learn and immerse yourself in V20. It's a lot better than V5, more complete and in my opinion it nails the idea of "feeling like a vampire".
V5 was too focused on the mechanical part of being a vampire. V20 is more focused on the feeling of being one, be it the moments of terror when you're way over your head, or even the moments where you actually feel like an immortal monster of the night.
The truth is that the community isn't angry at VTMB2 or at TCR: the community is angry at Paradox because they forced a change in mood, themes, art, and ideas in the franchise, and the community is taking that out on TCR.
Which is very sad to see: they were handed the impossible task of salvaging a game that was in development hell and it's clear they are doing their very best to make a good game, but there's just too much resentment towards Paradox in the community.
It's not just you.
Pick the lock first, them pick up the key for maximum compulsive collecting of both XP and Unique Items
I, for one, would love to hear your Fallout 4 rant.
Should have included an analysis of Twilight in here
A leekspin, in this the year of our lord 2024?
I needed something to watch for an hour, thanks for the feeding
Vampire TM Swansong should have been mentioned here. While the game has several flaws, the concept itself does have interesting points. Being an RPG where there is no traditional combat and the gameplay revolves around using your skills in the environment (involving perception, stealth, using illusions, superspeed, super strength feats, knowledge, tech skills etc.). Dialogs and arguments replace combat, where you need to use your skills and powers in conversation to convince (or brainwash) your opponent into doing what you want. The fact that blood resource (biting people) is limited and endangers the masquerade the more you bite (until you ultimately drain people and kill them) forces you to prioritize routes in the game.
Excellent video man! Here's hoping they do us proud with the upcoming sequel eh?
Excited to watch this!
The end gag made me more uncomfortable than even the Shaggy voice. Good job!
I love the TES tangent, I too just sometimes have to talk about it.
31:30 Is THAT AN ELDER KINGS REFERENCE?!
Maybe c:
Bro you don't have to write poetry to get past your bad dreams. Just rip the penjamin before bed and say goodbye to dreams that night.
Ah, finally the Bloodlines video, time to settle in.
I can't agree more with the conclusion : If not to pull from Bloodlines, why even call it bloodlines 2 ? If not to pull from VTM, not use its central themes, why even make it a VTM game ?
The game is 20 years old, the fanbase hardly existent in the grand scheme of things. The tabletop is very niche at the crossroad of goth and tabletop players. Why make something for those people that doesn't appeal for those people ?
Not that it would automatically make it a good game, nor doing something different would make it a bad game. But it's... I don't know. It's like saying you're going to make a "Day of the tentacle 2" and it's a battle royal FPS. It could be the better battle royal FPS for all I know, I couldn't care less for such a game, why unearth the name for that ? Or for a cinema parallel, making a citizen kane 2, but it's all about giant robots and Rosebud is the evil computer AI.
I don't know, I can't even get interested in a game that tries to sell me Batman Arkam city. It could be the best Batman game ever, but if I look at bloodlines it's not to play a batman game.
Arguably, Bloodline isn’t the first game of the series, but Redemption is.
great work as always. Have a comment for the algorithm gods
While there are definitely a bunch of superficial elements that appealed to me with the Hardsuit version over the current one, I'm still rooting for TCR to pull this off. Even an ARPG with fun combat and a well written VtM narrative would still be a huge win to me!
Considering their past output I wonder if Chinese Room will focus on combat or on the the talking, they havent really made stuff in either genre? I mean their most notable things are game where you at most solve some puzzles and listen to people talk. When Eidos made the prequel to Deus Ex they specifically focused on combat and stealth because they knew they could improve upon that, but that team also had experience there. I feel like at best Bloodlines 2 is gonna be Human Revolution, but I fear we wont even get that with the horrible dev cycle, inexperienced devs and none of the writers they got specifically to claim that they will do the story justice working there anymore.
Kevin, that poor sod, he should of watched this video before being embraced
You mean The Great and Mighty Kevin, Vampire Wizard?
@@jurtheorc8117 who else?
@@laurencegagniuc4806 Uhhhh... the Minion?
@@jurtheorc8117 the minion for the disposable me?
@@laurencegagniuc4806 That was a Despicable Me reference, yes. Couldn't think of any other people called Kevin in the moment.
Though i now realize i could have made a reference to Home Alone as well.