Hello RobbyLAVA. It’s me, your only viewer. Over the years I created the illusion that you have many subscribers, but it was me. Now I will write you from my alt accounts.
Honestly, for the Tlaxcalans, you could think about vastly different tech tree. Owing to ther allegiance with Spaniards, you could've actually given them Stable, or some unique unit with European weapons/armor.
Yep, that's what I mentioned in the video! If any meso American civilization deserves to have cavalry and gunpowder, it's them. Though there is another, more obscure option that I think could also have those elements too.
i've had 2 more unit ideas for you: 1. a decent cav UU with very high hp but only has 50% hp upon creation, say 125/250 hp. that way, you can use them straight away or choose to garrison/heal them to supercharge them for later. encourages players to combine monk play or research monk tech to increase garrison healing. 2. a monk/petard combo, acts like a meta 'inspirational speaker' like wallaces freedom speech from braveheart. small 'blast' radius and single use only. when activated near friendly units, adds about 50hp to every unit, which can take them over their max hp, so for example an 'inspired' xbowman would have 90/40 hp. ideally would always keep an opponent on the back foot as they may not readily know which type of units may have been boosted, so could be up against archers that could tank a mango shot or supertough petards for example.
I searched a bit and I think the Chichimeca would be cool. They had very mobile ambush and guerilla tactics, and many of their warriors were dressed with coyote pelts (they might be the inspiration for the Aztec Coyote Warrior in AoE 3).
The rich history of Mesoamerica has so much potential that should/must be tackled in a future expansion (the next traditional one if there's one in the works in my opinion).
Hello Robby!! Nice video as always! Mexican and history lover here!! I truly think that a Mesoamerican DLC is a must!! (As well as an Andean, Incas are just there alone and we need a distinct architecture) I have read that some people complain about adding more American civs because they think everything else outside Aztecs, mayas and Incas are kinda “prehistoric” culture, totally WRONG! They are the most famous but c’mon even us Mexicans forget the greatness from civilizations like the Purépecha (pls don’t name them Tarascan that’s a literally insult to that people) or the Mixtecs. The Purépecha Empire (around 1200-1530) was a very important empire in Mesoamerica (the second bigger empire, first is Aztec) being one of the few cultures that the Aztecs did’t conquered, we have a lot of their rulers names, we have a lot of lore to make campaigns like wars versus the Aztecs, the resistance versus the Spanish and the expansion to the west. They had their own gods and we have archaeological sites of many cities to design a wonder or the castle (Tzintzuntzan for the Wonder and Ihuatzio pyramids for the castle). We even have the design of the UU that is the Quangariecha, they used metal weapons, that makes them very unique!! The Mixteca (Around 1500BC - 1523) is an interesting civilization with 3000 years of history!! Now that is a civilization worth of Age of Empires. They have one of the most famous archaeological sites in Mexico (Monte Alban). They did a resistance to the Aztec Empire but were voluntarily submitted to the Spanish. Some people talks about the Zapoteca (they were rivals and allies in different times even they shared their cities, mainly founded by the Mixtecs) but being a Mexican I can tell you people, the Mixtecs in a context for Age of Empires 2 does makes a lot more sense, they even have a region in Mexico after them “La Mixteca” so I can assure you, they were an influential culture. And we have lore for the campaign as we know their rulers and activities! So that’s great. For a DLC if they decide for two civilizations these are perfect and very representative of different cultures across Mesoamerica, having Aztecs, Maya, Purépecha and Mixtecs. But if they decide to make a 3 civs DLC I think the devs should totally decide for the Toltec or Tlaxcallans) The Toltecs (Around 650-1168) were a civilization that dominated the centre of Mexico way before the Aztecs did, so this civ can make a nice representation of the Early Middle Age in Mesoamerica, having the imponent “Atlanteans” (that could be a nice wonder) they leave a lot of influence across the region, this is where the Nahua people probably took their gods and some characteristics, like Quetzalcoatl for example. We have information about the name of the rulers so that’s a positive and important thing to make into a civ in AOE2. The sad thing about them is the few historical background we know about them so that makes hard to do a campaign. Their most important hero “Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl” it’s more mythological since we don’t know the historical identity. The Tlaxcallans formed a Confederation and sometimes named Tlaxcala Republic (1348-1520) from some cities that united, they were Nahua People so can be under the Aztec umbrella but as they were such iconic enemies maybe we could decide to have them partitioned. Allies of the Spanish and part of the few civs that resisted the Aztec conquest. I think the most fun thing to do about this possible civ is to create a scenario about the 1582 Cagayan Battles where the Spanish with some Tlaxcallan army and Philippines native warriors combat against Japanese and Chinese pirates (now that could be a fun scenario with so much distant cultures) A very sad thing is about Teotihuacán, the city of the gods (as the Aztecs named it) we don’t know which culture or civilization made that beautiful city so that’s knowledge we maybe lost forever. We know that the people who lived in Teotihuacán had influence in other parts of Mexico even in Maya region but we don’t know nothing clear. Hoping we can discover things about Teotihuacan and the people who made it that could be a nice addition to history of the region, maybe the Toltecs did but we can’t really say that as it’s just a supposition. Hope someone gets interest of this and read this, thank you for your time!!
Well said on all fronts! I have done builds on the Purepecha, Mixtecs, and Zapotecs on this channel in the past, so if you get a chance to check those out I'd love to hear what you think about them! The Mixtecs one in particular is quite recent and is one of my favorite designs I've ever done, once again with the excellent help of my consultant Ahmicqui
I'd say there is actually more than one North American civilization that could be added! But the Mississippians are without question the best choice. I actually did a build on them on this channel a little while back!
Honestly, I was skeptical at first, but the prospect of a gunpowder & cav or steppe or siege meso-civ more than won me over. Well done Robby and Ahmicqui!
Awesome work as always. Love to see more Eagle civs added to the game. The Eagle Warrior is one of my favorite units in the game actually. From my knowledge there was a Mesoamerican tribe or tribal confederation that used their own catapults or mangonels against the Spanish but I forgot their name (seems to be Pipil if my memory serves me right). They could be a civ that focuses on siege and monk.
I do mention them in the video! Extremely cool civilization, though I would recommend not calling them Pipil since it is generally considered derogatory.
@@robbylava By the way Robby I sent you several emails but you haven't replied back. Please reply back once you have time. Looking forward to hearing from you again.
@weifan9533 yep, I haven't forgotten about you! They've just been a lot going on recently, so I haven't had time to reply yet. Will try to do so very soon
It was loads of fun to help you with this! Some additions/minor corrections (that I'll be updating as I watch the vid): The word Tōltēc (Tōltēcatl) most likely has no actual relation to Tōllān! It actually means "artisan"... which just shows how really symbolic and mythologized is the entire history around them. Ah yes, there was this massive empire/society of both enlightened and warlike artisans (whose ethnic name is LITERALLY artisans, how convenient) who are eventually brought down because of their rulers' corruption and hubris. Atlanteans of Mesoamerica, much? The main Highland Maya cities were conquered relatively quickly... it was a complete mess though, the Kaqchikel allied themselves with the Spanish against the K'iche but quickly realized how terrible the choice was and revolted against the Spanish... However you are technically correct that the Highland Maya themselves endured the Spanish really well - modern Highland Maya have the best preserved culture etc. of all the natives who were subjects to Spanish crown for so long (for example there are Maya who remained unconquered much longer, but their resistance to conversion etc. was much weaker once their main cities fell). We even have the one and only prehispanic Maya theatrical play from the modern Maya city of Rabinal! I sadly missed this when revieving the presentation (apologies, it was the middle of the night for me!) but the Huaxtec actually migrated north WAY before the fall of the classic period. Most likely thousands of years before, when the proto-Maya language was still a thing. A really minor issue though! Another minor thing: One could say the Totōnac were the first major group encountered by the Spanish, yes, but not the first overall. Cortez actually clashed with the Chontal a Cintlah and Potonchan! If anyone has any more questions etc. ask away here! And as usual, thank you for the great work Robby!
So sorry about that mistake, clearly just me misinterpreting your notes and suggestions! Do you think that Tollan still could work as a name for the civilization if we ended up wanting to get away from the label of Toltec?
@@robbylavaNot a problem, I should've mentioned that! Even some well-versed archaeology colleagues of mine made this mistake. And yes, the name is really good nonetheless!
Question. Do you think is viable to include the Teuchitlán Tradition or the Wixárika as playable civs? Or do we lack a lot of information to make that happen?
@@GodFlesh572Teuchitlan could fit into AoE1/RoR IMO. Wixárika are a fascinating people, I'd definitely love to see them ingame - at the moment I'm not sure how though
Amazing effort man! Well researched and everything, as a Historian, I just have 1 knitpick. I think the idea of making the Jaguar warrior a regional unit is a bad idea, the Jaguar warriors were very important in Aztec religion an society, representing Tezcatlipocatl. Other civilizations had their own elite warriors, but not Jaguar warriors. I think it's already bad enough that Mayans and Incas have Eagle warriors.
Thanks so much for saying so! My reasons for the Jaguar Warrior becoming regional are largely piggybacking off of the reasons why the Eagle Warrior is regional. They are both absolutely inventions of the Aztecs, but many of the other mesoamerican cultures had elite warriors who were similar, in some cases extremely similar, and both help flesh out the tech tree in a way that I think is really important to do more. If I were able to find some elite infantry units That could cover similar holes in the mesoamerican tech tree that were a bit less culturally specific and more universalizable, I would 100% use those. I haven't done research yet on Maya civilizations, but with luck maybe I can find some soldiers more specific to them that I could use as regionals for those cultures without having to give them the eagle and jag!
I only just stumbled onto your channel with this video, found it funny that I'm currently working on a Native American mod where I've already added the Mixtec, Purépécha, Tlaxcaltecs, Toltecs, Huaxtecs and Zapotecs (and a few other civs from South and North America), and some of the stuff you mention here. I'm not sure how historically accurate all of it is given that I'm terrible at doing research, but it's fun to have more American civs.
This is my dream video from you, Mesoamerica is the perfect region for theorycrafting because is so underdeveloped that it has a lot of opportunity to theorize (Andes too). I ask for an indepth video of very civ, and for a redesign of naval and siege combat.
Glad to hear it mate! All of the above will be tackled at some point, though I can't promise it'll be soon! But I will hopefully have some more mesoamerica stuff here on the channel in short order. Hope you enjoy!
Let's hope that if a DLC like this comes, they do a bit of research. Maybe actually visit Mexico. You know, so they don't depict Tenochtitlan inmeersed in a deep jungle. Yeah, palm trees are common at 7350 fasl.
As a northernmost Long shot I like the Natchez chiefdom to represent all the Mississippians. They built the largest cities in the modern USA proto Columbus, and they probably did war with Hernan de Soto in the mid 1500s. It's long been speculated whether they had contact with mesoamerica because the artifacts of their Buzzard Death Cult Religion is extremely evocative of mesoamerican artifacts
@ahmicqui9396 they really are and the study of them doesn't get enough attention because it was in French and it seems like their history goes dormant. For instance, I believe the Chickisaw were possibly a continuance of Natchez because they're described as living in River fort cities. The only other people who did that were the Natchez they gotta be linked.
I do plan on doing a different video going over North America, since I think it is distinct enough to merit its own discussion and I have seen so many comments discussing its potential viability The Mississippians are actually a civilization I have done a build on myself! Naming them Natchez is a pretty interesting take, I could see that being a possibility.
The Tlaxcalans are really really cool. It seems like they did whatever they could to be the exact opposite of what the Aztec empire was. They were a republic, and their leaders had to prove themselves in battle before being eligible to become their form of nobility. Their deity was the trickster god of Aztec mythology, and their myths were basically their deity tricking the Aztec deities into doing ridiculous things. They did not perform himan sacrifice. They seem to be heavily villanized for siding with the Spanish anymore, but the thing was they had been knocked around by the Aztec empire for a very very long time. It's theorized they had not been conquered because the Aztecs wnated to be able to wage constant warfare against them so they could have sacrificial victims. They were the only natice group allowed to ride horses and were given first pick on lands conquered by the spanish
They were a republic, but the 'Aztecs' were an elective monarchy. So not really polar opposites. They also did human sacrifice. Loads of it. The first thing the Spanish mention when they arrive in Tlaxcallān are native priests guarding bones of human sacrifices (not only skulls like in Tenōchtitlān, but also femurs IIRC) "They were kept around for sacrifices" is really just Tenōchtitlān propaganda. In reality the Triple Alliance was unable to conquer them so Motēcuhzōma made up this reason when talking with Spaniards to seem more powerful.
I have thought extensively about possible civilizations. To model the classic and post classic we need also a Teotihuacán/Toltec civilization that would represent central Mexican city states before the arrival of the Nahua Peoples, also a Mixe Zoque civilization the forgotten world power of late post classic. As for the Zapotecs and Mixtecs they would be way better represented as a single Oaxacan civ because of their tight geneaological and cultural ties, I say this as a Mixtec-Zapotec myself
Mucho cariño por esto, pero ambos sabemos que la verdadera batalla es que metan aztecas, mayas o incas en age of mythology: se imaginan rendirle culto a un dios desollado (xipe totec), las unidades mitológicas, rise of legends already did it well. En fin, gracias algoritmo de yt y saludos, hermano
Holy... All of this is massive, a serious amount of knowledge, simpöy lovely! ❤️ Love that at 2:00 starts the original The Conquerors Music Theme, even if doesn't fit too much with the meso civs, it fits for them for nostalgia reasons Absolutely lovely Sir Robby, thanks for your work on this, you knew the meso civs are my absolute favourotes in game, so thank you for covering them! Also the Otomi i think are easily distinguished by their elongated hat/helmet and the use of giant arrows as a javelin/melee spear, so a UU skirmisher without minimum range Also as you described the Cuzcatlecs, they seems very similar to the genius Inca society, very well done, lots of thing i learned today, thanks Sir! ❤️
Thanks so much for saying so My friend! I was really pleased with how this one came out, and I'm so glad you learned something. Full credit to Ahmicqui for his amazing consultancy, without him this video could not have happened.
Hey, what do any of you thinks about a "game mode" instead of adding new civs to the game. I haven't play the new DLC yet but looking to the reviews I think the chronicles treatment would very well apply to Mesoamerica. You may have newer factions, mechanics, architectures and skins for units (obsidian weapons or cupper in only rare cases). Cavalry and siege won't be a problem cause, in the context of the game mode, it never existed (making extra special the civ that actually owned siege engines). And in my mind this can be followed by two sequels, the Andean saga and maybe the northern plains and rivers.
I think it would be very cool and a great way to feature some of the more obscure options on this list that I think most people would say are overkill. But I would personally be very disappointed if we got no more official civilizations for mesoamerica besides the two we have now.
I try to imagine how the purépecha would be, thinking that their main territory is called Michoacán, which means "the land of the fishermen", and it's surrounded by woods and lakes; also thinking that they were probably the most advanced mesoamerican culture in metallurgy. So this is my proposal: - lumberjacks, fishermen and fishing ships drop off 10% more resources. - Melee attack upgrades provide +1 extra of melee attack - barracks, archery ranges and blacksmiths are built 50% faster Team bonus: fish traps are built 100% faster Unique technologies: -Bronze pikes: eagle warriors thurst their spears through multiple targets - Healing rituals: villagers and infantry units regenerate 15 hp per minute Unique unit: bronze axe warrior, infantry with trample damage. What do you think? Would that be playable?
I got an idea por regional economic unit, its call "chinampa", and its basically a farm in a boat, so de could build them directly in the water, or could be a tech for the fishing boats.
The ballgame could also be added as a technology. I think most cultural practices are framed as "technologies".Maybe It could be developed at the University; lorewise to represent its place as a honorable cultural practice and mechanically to fill up the space left by the gunpowder tech there. It could give a small bonus to movement speed (and maybe some other small perk) to represent how your people are more athletically trained from the game while further patching up your army's lack of cavalry in the late game.
Possible, possible. That sort of thing is just not the way I typically prefer to approach design though, so even if it's more likely I would personally want to go for a more dramatic option.
Age of empires 1 has not been that popular because they haven't add new civs which is a big upside in pulling people attention into the game. That game could get Olmecs, Gauls and a few extra civs surrounding the Mediterranean or asian current civs (Up to 6 maybe) They could inspire with some mods of the original aoe1
Not surprised by Tlaxcalans being there, but Toltecs? Honestly, I would've expected the Otomi to be there on top, due to them being a separate group from both their linguistic relatives and the adjacent Aztecs. Aztecs feel like a very strong regional carrier of the Nahua banner, kinda making other Nahua groups somewhat less of a necessity. A Mayan splitting is a topic that I'm not sure how it would go if it happens. I think it would serve to more confuse people than anything. Dunno, it's kinda similar to the Berbers in some ways, I guess. I was aware there was some sort of peoples in Xalisco and Coliman that had prominent wars with Purepecha, but I couldn't find any significant sourcing on them. At most I'd run into the term Tecos and be confused because nothing talks about them. To be honest, I'd actually think that one of them would be a somewhat of a good choice as an alternate opponent for the Purepecha. I guess you can do with Pinomes and Tecos like what happens with Cumans and Kipchaks. Or Saracens and Mamlukes.
Bad history doesn’t exist. History is what’s been recorded (written down). What you think or believe about said history is your own problem. Fact is, aoe2 is supposed to take place between the fall of western rome and the renaissance. My favorite civ is Incas because I think they were the most advanced meso civilization. They only ever got into conflict with old world explorers a handful of times (and won a couple of them) and were then totally destroyed by disease. Mayans, Aztecs, Incas have name brand recognition as peoples for good reason. They were the most complex societies over there based off of technology and government systems used. All that said they were still a pale shadow to even the Goths if we’re talking the grand scale of history. Video game is a video game but aoe2 has already stretched the truth on each and every civilization enough as it is for fun gameplay reasons. I’d prefer a historical RTS over a RTS wearing the skin of being historical. To me this includes adding a bit of mythology to each civ tech tree but not to the point we’re playing age of mythology. Aoe2 realistically takes place when advanced peoples and civilizations should have been writing down observations about the world around them. That’s what makes it all exciting knowing it’s based off true understanding, a consensus.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to argue in this comment. You say that you would prefer a historical RTS over an RTS wearing the skin of being historical, but then you argue that a historical RTS should include a little bit of mythology? This feels innately contradictory to me. Regardless, I think that your original point of bad history not existing is just flat wrong. Mythologized, misunderstood, or grossly oversimplified retellings of history are bad history, plain and simple. To say otherwise is just an utterly bizarre take, and I am genuinely curious what you meant by it and how you back it up, if you would care to elaborate.
Hello RobbyLAVA. It’s me, your only viewer. Over the years I created the illusion that you have many subscribers, but it was me. Now I will write you from my alt accounts.
Such dedication brings tears to my eyes!
I am an alt. can confirm
As an alt account I can totally confirm to that
Alt account 243 reporting in... Wait what? :-D
Hello RobbyLAVA. This is bobisafish4983 from my 667th alt account. Hope you are doing well.
Honestly, for the Tlaxcalans, you could think about vastly different tech tree. Owing to ther allegiance with Spaniards, you could've actually given them Stable, or some unique unit with European weapons/armor.
Yep, that's what I mentioned in the video! If any meso American civilization deserves to have cavalry and gunpowder, it's them. Though there is another, more obscure option that I think could also have those elements too.
Try watching the video bahaha
i've had 2 more unit ideas for you:
1. a decent cav UU with very high hp but only has 50% hp upon creation, say 125/250 hp. that way, you can use them straight away or choose to garrison/heal them to supercharge them for later. encourages players to combine monk play or research monk tech to increase garrison healing.
2. a monk/petard combo, acts like a meta 'inspirational speaker' like wallaces freedom speech from braveheart. small 'blast' radius and single use only. when activated near friendly units, adds about 50hp to every unit, which can take them over their max hp, so for example an 'inspired' xbowman would have 90/40 hp. ideally would always keep an opponent on the back foot as they may not readily know which type of units may have been boosted, so could be up against archers that could tank a mango shot or supertough petards for example.
It's very creative!
I searched a bit and I think the Chichimeca would be cool. They had very mobile ambush and guerilla tactics, and many of their warriors were dressed with coyote pelts (they might be the inspiration for the Aztec Coyote Warrior in AoE 3).
The rich history of Mesoamerica has so much potential that should/must be tackled in a future expansion (the next traditional one if there's one in the works in my opinion).
Hello Robby!! Nice video as always! Mexican and history lover here!! I truly think that a Mesoamerican DLC is a must!! (As well as an Andean, Incas are just there alone and we need a distinct architecture) I have read that some people complain about adding more American civs because they think everything else outside Aztecs, mayas and Incas are kinda “prehistoric” culture, totally WRONG! They are the most famous but c’mon even us Mexicans forget the greatness from civilizations like the Purépecha (pls don’t name them Tarascan that’s a literally insult to that people) or the Mixtecs.
The Purépecha Empire (around 1200-1530) was a very important empire in Mesoamerica (the second bigger empire, first is Aztec) being one of the few cultures that the Aztecs did’t conquered, we have a lot of their rulers names, we have a lot of lore to make campaigns like wars versus the Aztecs, the resistance versus the Spanish and the expansion to the west. They had their own gods and we have archaeological sites of many cities to design a wonder or the castle (Tzintzuntzan for the Wonder and Ihuatzio pyramids for the castle). We even have the design of the UU that is the Quangariecha, they used metal weapons, that makes them very unique!!
The Mixteca (Around 1500BC - 1523) is an interesting civilization with 3000 years of history!! Now that is a civilization worth of Age of Empires. They have one of the most famous archaeological sites in Mexico (Monte Alban). They did a resistance to the Aztec Empire but were voluntarily submitted to the Spanish. Some people talks about the Zapoteca (they were rivals and allies in different times even they shared their cities, mainly founded by the Mixtecs) but being a Mexican I can tell you people, the Mixtecs in a context for Age of Empires 2 does makes a lot more sense, they even have a region in Mexico after them “La Mixteca” so I can assure you, they were an influential culture. And we have lore for the campaign as we know their rulers and activities! So that’s great.
For a DLC if they decide for two civilizations these are perfect and very representative of different cultures across Mesoamerica, having Aztecs, Maya, Purépecha and Mixtecs. But if they decide to make a 3 civs DLC I think the devs should totally decide for the Toltec or Tlaxcallans)
The Toltecs (Around 650-1168) were a civilization that dominated the centre of Mexico way before the Aztecs did, so this civ can make a nice representation of the Early Middle Age in Mesoamerica, having the imponent “Atlanteans” (that could be a nice wonder) they leave a lot of influence across the region, this is where the Nahua people probably took their gods and some characteristics, like Quetzalcoatl for example. We have information about the name of the rulers so that’s a positive and important thing to make into a civ in AOE2. The sad thing about them is the few historical background we know about them so that makes hard to do a campaign. Their most important hero “Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl” it’s more mythological since we don’t know the historical identity.
The Tlaxcallans formed a Confederation and sometimes named Tlaxcala Republic (1348-1520) from some cities that united, they were Nahua People so can be under the Aztec umbrella but as they were such iconic enemies maybe we could decide to have them partitioned. Allies of the Spanish and part of the few civs that resisted the Aztec conquest. I think the most fun thing to do about this possible civ is to create a scenario about the 1582 Cagayan Battles where the Spanish with some Tlaxcallan army and Philippines native warriors combat against Japanese and Chinese pirates (now that could be a fun scenario with so much distant cultures)
A very sad thing is about Teotihuacán, the city of the gods (as the Aztecs named it) we don’t know which culture or civilization made that beautiful city so that’s knowledge we maybe lost forever. We know that the people who lived in Teotihuacán had influence in other parts of Mexico even in Maya region but we don’t know nothing clear. Hoping we can discover things about Teotihuacan and the people who made it that could be a nice addition to history of the region, maybe the Toltecs did but we can’t really say that as it’s just a supposition.
Hope someone gets interest of this and read this, thank you for your time!!
Well said on all fronts!
I have done builds on the Purepecha, Mixtecs, and Zapotecs on this channel in the past, so if you get a chance to check those out I'd love to hear what you think about them! The Mixtecs one in particular is quite recent and is one of my favorite designs I've ever done, once again with the excellent help of my consultant Ahmicqui
A mí también se me ocurrió la idea de un escenario donde pelearán tlaxcaltecas y españoles contra los japoneses, en mapa de islas.
I wish they would add the North American civ, the Mississippians.
I'd say there is actually more than one North American civilization that could be added! But the Mississippians are without question the best choice. I actually did a build on them on this channel a little while back!
One step closer to the inevitable America dlc proposal
The Americas is so misunderstood that even includes andean civs (rn just incas) as meso civs lol
Nice video, I'll be waiting for the South America civs owó
Will absolutely make a video on them at some point!
Honestly, I was skeptical at first, but the prospect of a gunpowder & cav or steppe or siege meso-civ more than won me over. Well done Robby and Ahmicqui!
Thanks for saying so!
Awesome work as always. Love to see more Eagle civs added to the game. The Eagle Warrior is one of my favorite units in the game actually. From my knowledge there was a Mesoamerican tribe or tribal confederation that used their own catapults or mangonels against the Spanish but I forgot their name (seems to be Pipil if my memory serves me right). They could be a civ that focuses on siege and monk.
@@weifan9533 yes, the Nāhuat/Pipil used stone launchers against their enemies
I do mention them in the video! Extremely cool civilization, though I would recommend not calling them Pipil since it is generally considered derogatory.
@@robbylava By the way Robby I sent you several emails but you haven't replied back. Please reply back once you have time. Looking forward to hearing from you again.
@weifan9533 yep, I haven't forgotten about you! They've just been a lot going on recently, so I haven't had time to reply yet. Will try to do so very soon
It was loads of fun to help you with this! Some additions/minor corrections (that I'll be updating as I watch the vid):
The word Tōltēc (Tōltēcatl) most likely has no actual relation to Tōllān! It actually means "artisan"... which just shows how really symbolic and mythologized is the entire history around them. Ah yes, there was this massive empire/society of both enlightened and warlike artisans (whose ethnic name is LITERALLY artisans, how convenient) who are eventually brought down because of their rulers' corruption and hubris. Atlanteans of Mesoamerica, much?
The main Highland Maya cities were conquered relatively quickly... it was a complete mess though, the Kaqchikel allied themselves with the Spanish against the K'iche but quickly realized how terrible the choice was and revolted against the Spanish... However you are technically correct that the Highland Maya themselves endured the Spanish really well - modern Highland Maya have the best preserved culture etc. of all the natives who were subjects to Spanish crown for so long (for example there are Maya who remained unconquered much longer, but their resistance to conversion etc. was much weaker once their main cities fell). We even have the one and only prehispanic Maya theatrical play from the modern Maya city of Rabinal!
I sadly missed this when revieving the presentation (apologies, it was the middle of the night for me!) but the Huaxtec actually migrated north WAY before the fall of the classic period. Most likely thousands of years before, when the proto-Maya language was still a thing. A really minor issue though!
Another minor thing: One could say the Totōnac were the first major group encountered by the Spanish, yes, but not the first overall. Cortez actually clashed with the Chontal a Cintlah and Potonchan!
If anyone has any more questions etc. ask away here! And as usual, thank you for the great work Robby!
So sorry about that mistake, clearly just me misinterpreting your notes and suggestions! Do you think that Tollan still could work as a name for the civilization if we ended up wanting to get away from the label of Toltec?
@@robbylavaNot a problem, I should've mentioned that! Even some well-versed archaeology colleagues of mine made this mistake. And yes, the name is really good nonetheless!
Question. Do you think is viable to include the Teuchitlán Tradition or the Wixárika as playable civs? Or do we lack a lot of information to make that happen?
@@GodFlesh572Teuchitlan could fit into AoE1/RoR IMO. Wixárika are a fascinating people, I'd definitely love to see them ingame - at the moment I'm not sure how though
🎉 Congrats on this awesome video. ❤
Loved the content.
Thanks so much for saying so!
Amazing effort man! Well researched and everything, as a Historian, I just have 1 knitpick.
I think the idea of making the Jaguar warrior a regional unit is a bad idea, the Jaguar warriors were very important in Aztec religion an society, representing Tezcatlipocatl. Other civilizations had their own elite warriors, but not Jaguar warriors. I think it's already bad enough that Mayans and Incas have Eagle warriors.
Thanks so much for saying so!
My reasons for the Jaguar Warrior becoming regional are largely piggybacking off of the reasons why the Eagle Warrior is regional. They are both absolutely inventions of the Aztecs, but many of the other mesoamerican cultures had elite warriors who were similar, in some cases extremely similar, and both help flesh out the tech tree in a way that I think is really important to do more.
If I were able to find some elite infantry units That could cover similar holes in the mesoamerican tech tree that were a bit less culturally specific and more universalizable, I would 100% use those.
I haven't done research yet on Maya civilizations, but with luck maybe I can find some soldiers more specific to them that I could use as regionals for those cultures without having to give them the eagle and jag!
Thank you Ahmicqui and thank you Robby Hal
I only just stumbled onto your channel with this video, found it funny that I'm currently working on a Native American mod where I've already added the Mixtec, Purépécha, Tlaxcaltecs, Toltecs, Huaxtecs and Zapotecs (and a few other civs from South and North America), and some of the stuff you mention here. I'm not sure how historically accurate all of it is given that I'm terrible at doing research, but it's fun to have more American civs.
That's awesome to hear mate! I think I saw you join the server recently. It's great to have you here!
This is my dream video from you, Mesoamerica is the perfect region for theorycrafting because is so underdeveloped that it has a lot of opportunity to theorize (Andes too).
I ask for an indepth video of very civ, and for a redesign of naval and siege combat.
Glad to hear it mate! All of the above will be tackled at some point, though I can't promise it'll be soon!
But I will hopefully have some more mesoamerica stuff here on the channel in short order. Hope you enjoy!
Let's hope that if a DLC like this comes, they do a bit of research. Maybe actually visit Mexico. You know, so they don't depict Tenochtitlan inmeersed in a deep jungle. Yeah, palm trees are common at 7350 fasl.
As a northernmost Long shot I like the Natchez chiefdom to represent all the Mississippians. They built the largest cities in the modern USA proto Columbus, and they probably did war with Hernan de Soto in the mid 1500s. It's long been speculated whether they had contact with mesoamerica because the artifacts of their Buzzard Death Cult Religion is extremely evocative of mesoamerican artifacts
Natchez are awesome!
@ahmicqui9396 they really are and the study of them doesn't get enough attention because it was in French and it seems like their history goes dormant. For instance, I believe the Chickisaw were possibly a continuance of Natchez because they're described as living in River fort cities. The only other people who did that were the Natchez they gotta be linked.
I do plan on doing a different video going over North America, since I think it is distinct enough to merit its own discussion and I have seen so many comments discussing its potential viability
The Mississippians are actually a civilization I have done a build on myself! Naming them Natchez is a pretty interesting take, I could see that being a possibility.
The Tlaxcalans are really really cool. It seems like they did whatever they could to be the exact opposite of what the Aztec empire was. They were a republic, and their leaders had to prove themselves in battle before being eligible to become their form of nobility. Their deity was the trickster god of Aztec mythology, and their myths were basically their deity tricking the Aztec deities into doing ridiculous things. They did not perform himan sacrifice. They seem to be heavily villanized for siding with the Spanish anymore, but the thing was they had been knocked around by the Aztec empire for a very very long time. It's theorized they had not been conquered because the Aztecs wnated to be able to wage constant warfare against them so they could have sacrificial victims. They were the only natice group allowed to ride horses and were given first pick on lands conquered by the spanish
They were a republic, but the 'Aztecs' were an elective monarchy. So not really polar opposites.
They also did human sacrifice. Loads of it. The first thing the Spanish mention when they arrive in Tlaxcallān are native priests guarding bones of human sacrifices (not only skulls like in Tenōchtitlān, but also femurs IIRC)
"They were kept around for sacrifices" is really just Tenōchtitlān propaganda. In reality the Triple Alliance was unable to conquer them so Motēcuhzōma made up this reason when talking with Spaniards to seem more powerful.
I have thought extensively about possible civilizations. To model the classic and post classic we need also a Teotihuacán/Toltec civilization that would represent central Mexican city states before the arrival of the Nahua Peoples, also a Mixe Zoque civilization the forgotten world power of late post classic.
As for the Zapotecs and Mixtecs they would be way better represented as a single Oaxacan civ because of their tight geneaological and cultural ties, I say this as a Mixtec-Zapotec myself
Having done builds for both the Mixtecs and Zapotecs , I 100% think there is more than enough material to make them separate designs
Wow. That's a lot. If even half of these make it into the game, I will be one happy camper.
Mucho cariño por esto, pero ambos sabemos que la verdadera batalla es que metan aztecas, mayas o incas en age of mythology: se imaginan rendirle culto a un dios desollado (xipe totec), las unidades mitológicas, rise of legends already did it well. En fin, gracias algoritmo de yt y saludos, hermano
¡Muchas gracias por decirlo, amigo! Definitivamente planeo hacer algo de mitología para los aztecas, los incas, los mayas y más.
lets vote for it !
Holy...
All of this is massive, a serious amount of knowledge, simpöy lovely! ❤️
Love that at 2:00 starts the original The Conquerors Music Theme, even if doesn't fit too much with the meso civs, it fits for them for nostalgia reasons
Absolutely lovely Sir Robby, thanks for your work on this, you knew the meso civs are my absolute favourotes in game, so thank you for covering them!
Also the Otomi i think are easily distinguished by their elongated hat/helmet and the use of giant arrows as a javelin/melee spear, so a UU skirmisher without minimum range
Also as you described the Cuzcatlecs, they seems very similar to the genius Inca society, very well done, lots of thing i learned today, thanks Sir! ❤️
Thanks so much for saying so My friend! I was really pleased with how this one came out, and I'm so glad you learned something. Full credit to Ahmicqui for his amazing consultancy, without him this video could not have happened.
@robbylava that's indeed what i ment to done, but forgot to also saying you to thanks Sir Ahmicqui for me, you are amazing guys! ❤️🙇🏻♂️
Hey, what do any of you thinks about a "game mode" instead of adding new civs to the game. I haven't play the new DLC yet but looking to the reviews I think the chronicles treatment would very well apply to Mesoamerica. You may have newer factions, mechanics, architectures and skins for units (obsidian weapons or cupper in only rare cases). Cavalry and siege won't be a problem cause, in the context of the game mode, it never existed (making extra special the civ that actually owned siege engines). And in my mind this can be followed by two sequels, the Andean saga and maybe the northern plains and rivers.
@@AlvinMLozada this came to my mind the instant Battle For Greece was announced! Would be insanely awesome if done correctly.
I think it would be very cool and a great way to feature some of the more obscure options on this list that I think most people would say are overkill. But I would personally be very disappointed if we got no more official civilizations for mesoamerica besides the two we have now.
I try to imagine how the purépecha would be, thinking that their main territory is called Michoacán, which means "the land of the fishermen", and it's surrounded by woods and lakes; also thinking that they were probably the most advanced mesoamerican culture in metallurgy. So this is my proposal:
- lumberjacks, fishermen and fishing ships drop off 10% more resources.
- Melee attack upgrades provide +1 extra of melee attack
- barracks, archery ranges and blacksmiths are built 50% faster
Team bonus: fish traps are built 100% faster
Unique technologies:
-Bronze pikes: eagle warriors thurst their spears through multiple targets
- Healing rituals: villagers and infantry units regenerate 15 hp per minute
Unique unit: bronze axe warrior, infantry with trample damage.
What do you think? Would that be playable?
A reasonable take! The build that I did took it in a very different direction though.
@@robbylava where can I see your build?
@GildoPatadePerro I linked it in a card midway through the video, but here's a direct link as well
ruclips.net/video/D2g25uNdz0E/видео.html
I got an idea por regional economic unit, its call "chinampa", and its basically a farm in a boat, so de could build them directly in the water, or could be a tech for the fishing boats.
Pretty cool idea! I will definitely consider it
The ballgame could also be added as a technology. I think most cultural practices are framed as "technologies".Maybe It could be developed at the University; lorewise to represent its place as a honorable cultural practice and mechanically to fill up the space left by the gunpowder tech there. It could give a small bonus to movement speed (and maybe some other small perk) to represent how your people are more athletically trained from the game while further patching up your army's lack of cavalry in the late game.
Possible, possible. That sort of thing is just not the way I typically prefer to approach design though, so even if it's more likely I would personally want to go for a more dramatic option.
SAY IT WITH ME - INCAS AREN'T MESOAMERICANS
No one cares
@@solorollo9756 bro is saying that on the wrong channel lmao
He literally said that in the video
If the non-exonyms were used instead, they could pique curiosity about the game if marketed properly…
Definitely possible! Or, unlikely though it is, we could even have a setting or something you could tick to show original language versus exonym!
Do you think the Olmecs would be represented for a possible AOE era return of Rome for the American civilisations
The Olmecs being the ancient progenitor of most of the Mesoam cultures were not extensively and thoroughly documented.
I think it's doable - if Lac Viet can make it in, why not the Olmec? Would be pretty cool.
Age of empires 1 has not been that popular because they haven't add new civs which is a big upside in pulling people attention into the game. That game could get Olmecs, Gauls and a few extra civs surrounding the Mediterranean or asian current civs (Up to 6 maybe) They could inspire with some mods of the original aoe1
Not surprised by Tlaxcalans being there, but Toltecs? Honestly, I would've expected the Otomi to be there on top, due to them being a separate group from both their linguistic relatives and the adjacent Aztecs. Aztecs feel like a very strong regional carrier of the Nahua banner, kinda making other Nahua groups somewhat less of a necessity.
A Mayan splitting is a topic that I'm not sure how it would go if it happens. I think it would serve to more confuse people than anything. Dunno, it's kinda similar to the Berbers in some ways, I guess.
I was aware there was some sort of peoples in Xalisco and Coliman that had prominent wars with Purepecha, but I couldn't find any significant sourcing on them. At most I'd run into the term Tecos and be confused because nothing talks about them. To be honest, I'd actually think that one of them would be a somewhat of a good choice as an alternate opponent for the Purepecha. I guess you can do with Pinomes and Tecos like what happens with Cumans and Kipchaks. Or Saracens and Mamlukes.
First!
the developers make sure the game will get too much civs, too much work to patch all of them
Bad history doesn’t exist. History is what’s been recorded (written down). What you think or believe about said history is your own problem. Fact is, aoe2 is supposed to take place between the fall of western rome and the renaissance. My favorite civ is Incas because I think they were the most advanced meso civilization. They only ever got into conflict with old world explorers a handful of times (and won a couple of them) and were then totally destroyed by disease. Mayans, Aztecs, Incas have name brand recognition as peoples for good reason. They were the most complex societies over there based off of technology and government systems used. All that said they were still a pale shadow to even the Goths if we’re talking the grand scale of history. Video game is a video game but aoe2 has already stretched the truth on each and every civilization enough as it is for fun gameplay reasons. I’d prefer a historical RTS over a RTS wearing the skin of being historical. To me this includes adding a bit of mythology to each civ tech tree but not to the point we’re playing age of mythology. Aoe2 realistically takes place when advanced peoples and civilizations should have been writing down observations about the world around them. That’s what makes it all exciting knowing it’s based off true understanding, a consensus.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to argue in this comment. You say that you would prefer a historical RTS over an RTS wearing the skin of being historical, but then you argue that a historical RTS should include a little bit of mythology?
This feels innately contradictory to me.
Regardless, I think that your original point of bad history not existing is just flat wrong. Mythologized, misunderstood, or grossly oversimplified retellings of history are bad history, plain and simple. To say otherwise is just an utterly bizarre take, and I am genuinely curious what you meant by it and how you back it up, if you would care to elaborate.
Oh yeah, because playing with so many civs without cavalry is fun and not repetitiv at all
If you design them well then yes! I for one really dislike cav civs, the only ones I play are the elephant civs
@ahmicqui9396 its called sarcasm
@@mikelthemafia Yes, that's why I replied
There shouldn’t even be meso civs. They would get wiped
I get not wanting to include American civs in a medieval game for a variety of reasons, but this is probably the stupidest one