I loaded and shot 777 in thousands of cartridges over 12 years in Cowboy Action Shooting competitions with no issues. I used 17 grains by VOLUME in my .45 colt pistols and rifle. ❤
What are you meaning that you used only 17 grains to load 45 Colt cartridges? You clearly are not telling any truth! Triple 7 is a black powder substitute its not smokeless powder!! You must be talking about smokeless powder apparently! If you loaded only 17 grains of volume of triple 7 it would not compress at all! And that would not be good! 45 colt needs a 40 grain or some substitutes you might only be able to use 38 grains or so! Yes, 17 grains you are talking about must be a smokeless powder charge!
Back about a year ago, i made contact with someone (i dont want to name names) at Hodgdon about using fffg in handgun cartridges. So i was told that fffg is 10% more “energetic” than ffg, also trip7 is overall 15% more “energetic” than bp or pyrodex. So because the pressures of fffg exceed the bp pressures of these cartridges (im sure those well under ruger type loads) they recommend using ffg. Also, trip7 does not like to be compressed. Its not as forgiving as bp. Thats possibly where the wide spread comes from?!?! Thanks for another great video! Im in the process of building a press for pucking! The prices these days which ever way you look at it are imo gouging!
The reason that many BP subs dont work well in flintlocks and cap and ball revolvers is that they are much harder to ignite. Im a propellant chemist and have been making my own versions of sub powders fir many years, the general trend is to replace charcoal with fuels that produce more gas and less solids, and use more powerful oxidizers (perchlorate). Asorbic acid, benzoate, sorbitol, and gluconic acid are examples of fuels that are used. If a sub powder is crushed to a powder durung loading, that makes it even harder ti ignite evenly, the tiny air spaces between propellant granules allows the shock wave from the primer to propagate through the powder charge and hot particles to penetrate better into the charge. Love your channel, keep up the research because powder is only going to get harder to come by, this is a lost art.
I have the same chronograph. My wife shot one of the diffuser support rods with her .308 one day. I gave her a rash of shit for months... Right up until I put a 150 FMJ through the display screen with my .308 She still hasn't let me live it down.
Great video. I use Swiss in my Flints and Hodgens 777 in my Percussions. With 777 the rule to lower velocity spread is do not compress it. In my .54 rifle I use 60-grains of 777 under a 0.015 patched .535" round ball. When I feel the ball settle against the powder I stop, not tamping. This normally will give a spread of about 30 feet per second.
This channel is definitely inspiring. I got to watching this channel a little over a year ago in the middle of winter and decided that I would learn how to make BP. It worked great!!! I didn’t have a fancy press so I corned it by using a bottle jack under my loaded 1-ton dump truck. Ground it up and sized it with screens. Worked great!!!
I've been loading 45 Colt cartridges with Blackhorn 209 black powder substitute. It shoots great, ignites good, still gives you a lot of smoke but with a lot less fauling and much easier to clean. I really enjoy watching your channel and you give a lot of good information. Great video thank you.
Too bad it costs like $85……+ for a measly 8 oz……used to be 10 or 12oz. Really kicking myself in the arse for not buying more at Wally World a few years back when it was $30-$35 for 12oz. What are ya gonna do? At least I have 2 cans left!
Ok so you got me thinking, being in Ca I buy whatever is available whenever it's available. I was pretty sure I bought some 777 back when Obama was in office. I haven't been in my reloading room for years as it is stacked to the roof with contracting tools from when I retired but I fought my way in and took a peak. All I can say is you must be Santa Clause, because it is Christmas in November, I won't give any numbers as it's Ca, but not only 777, but Trailboss, Goex and Swiss on that shelf as well, and rows of large pistol primers. Next time the wife tells me to get lost, I am going in there and not coming out for weeks.
Great video! Yep, I’m one I’ve those that likes all the propellants and real black powder just the same. 777 3Fg is my favorite substitute. I have loaded cartridges with it for many years. It works. I’ve never experienced any problems by doing so. It’s a stellar performer in my old .32 long black powder revolvers and it shoots relatively clean in them. I like it for a deer hunting load in my Pietta Remington .44 with a 200 grain LEE conical. It gets em good. I also like it in my old .45 CVA Kentucky rife with a LEE 200 grain REAL bullet and a 75 grain by volume charge for deer hunting. This rifle and load averages 1938 FPS as measured on my old chrony F1. That works out to mighty fine energy transfer on the deer and it’s a tight shooting load.
I guy gave me a can of triple 777 he said it sucked. It sat on my self on my loading bench for yrs. I do CAS and shoot Frontier gun fighter and loaded up 38slp and 44 colt with the stuff at the insistence of another shooter and it worked fine. However I see no advantage to it it is expensive and is just as hard to clean up as real BP. I saw no issues with it in a cartridge other than a bit more pressure that shouldn't matter in a modern made revolver like Uberti but I did reduce what would be a black powderl oad by volume. .
Hodge on says use ffg triple 7 in cartridges. In the 45 Colt w/250 they say 30 grains volume for 838fps. Just another great option when our powder selections are unavailable.
This channel is inspiring. Made my first batch of around 4oz milled and milled some more and milled some more then wet into a ball of dough and ran through some window screen to produce what fool mostly to be FFF and been burning it in my Kentucky Pistol with great results 15gn at a time by weight not volume, looks to be between 22 and 25gn volume. Stuff is consistent, shooting at least as good groups as Goex, and I can’t see it as any more dirty than Goex. Hoping to make some the CIA method you showed next month and compare them. Get some more screens and end up putting up 5-10 pounds of FFF since I’m mostly moving to FFF anyway
Friend you have to try corning your powder. There is a video on this channel about how to do it. Its by far the biggest improvement to homemade powder. All you do is press the powder into pucks with a vise or a shop press. They become extremely hard almost like a ceramic. Then you break it up and grind it to 2ff or 3 fff size. This makes the powder as good as store-bought if not better
Too bad I'm not allowed to make BP here in the barrio as we live together too close to neighbors and are nosey and grandma would go on a rant about blowing up the backyard and house, so I have been forced to buy pyrodex as nobody around here in LA sell BP... Good for all the information as knowledge for the future...
Thanks for sharing. - Down here service and 'choice' are long gone - I just buy what I can while sorting-out how to make my own brew of BP antique propellent asap. You do a great job. Cheers.
Living in New York have used triple 7 for years in my 45 Colt cartridges. Got to save the precious real stuff for my flintlock. Ps can't sell BP in N.Y.
@@taofledermaus I’ve heard they have load data for 2F 777 in cartridges but not 3F. Something about erratic burn rates under compression which I suspect is the reason for the wide spread. Either way, onward and upward. Next we’re going to try the same load in a rifle to see how it does.
Way back before the component shortages started I was desperate to include something in my kit so I ended up with 1 x 777 (FFG), and 1 x Pyrodex (RS), I haven't seen BP available locally for a number of years and I have yet to crack open the stuff I have. I don't regret having something to play with when the time comes and at this point have no preference anyway. If I ever spy some GOEX or Swiss at a local gunshow it'll end up at home too. haha
777 is potentially pushing the limits on open top Colt replicas. I shot a couple of my cap and ball guns loose. After chronographing, I understood why. My 1851 Navy was pushing 320+ foot pounds energy. My .44 was pushing 500+ fpe. After just a few cylinders of those loads, the loading lever catch had worked loose, the loading lever started falling down, and the central arbor wiggled. The .44 had gone so loose that the hammer no longer reached the caps and the barrel wiggled side to side. After a couple expensive gunsmith bills, I started working to determine a maximum safe 777 load for each gun. I maximally loaded with premium black powder (Swiss 3f or Old Eynsford), then loaded 777 down until it reached those lower velocities. For a .36, 200 foot pounds energy is acceptably powerful and mild on the gun. For a .44, 400 fpe is a hot load, but is reliably handled. Both loads are equivalent to 1,000 feet per second with roundball, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Colt cap and ball designs reach that exact speed with full chambers of black powder. Colt probably intended that to be the maximum velocity of a fully loaded percussion pistol. I load 777 to 80% volume to get those levels.
The thing I find with Hodgon's Triple 7, especially fffg Granulation, it DOES "NOT LIKE" too much compression. Why this is so, I don't know for certain, other than chemical reactivity under very firm compression. I'm guessing that 30 to 35 grains would probably yield a smaller velocity spread. It also pays to remember that an "on parity volumetric measurement," Triple 7 burns 15% hotter than an equal measure of Swiss BP, or BP in general regardless of brand, at least according to the company literature. Ergo, a 30 gr. by volume charge of Triple 7 = 34.5 gr.by volume of BP, but with less compression; a 35 gr. by volume of Triple 7 = 40.25 gr. by volume charge of BP. This is using Triple 7 in (fffg) granulation. Another point to consider is that a 4 3/4 inch barreled Colt or a Colt clone, is basically a close quarters "gun fighter's" pistol (5 yards distance) where you snap shoot with only your front sight aligned with the centerline of your opponent between the sternum and his belly. Do that, and you're virtually guaranteed a "knockdown hit" on your 'opponent' with your FIRST SHOT. Remember: "Aim well, but do it quickly."
According to instructions for cartridge loads for 777 - use FFG and it says to avoid compressing powder. In a reproduction revolver I would hesitate to using FFFG / Compression in a reproduction revolver - in Ruger would be better.
When I began the journey of black powder, Pyrodex was the only thing to be had in my area $20 pound (Now 2023 I think $27) Black Powder was no where close still 160 mile round trip, add the needless mark up of black powder between $39-$49 a pound plus travel......Nah Pyrodex works well I will grab Triple 7 if there. Pyrodex RS and P are always on a shelf. Funny picked on degraded but yet no one wants to step out in front of it to show me how "WEAK" or "INACCURATE" it is...
Hi Jake, In Australia we pay $152 per plastic bottle of 3F Blackpowder . That’s about $100 USD on current change over rate. A tin of caps 100 per tin $10 USD. Flints $6 each. You guys have it pretty good over there.
Thank you I dont think I have ever been accused of being polite lol. By the way I love 40 grains of 777 in 45 colt. I like the substitute only for cartridges and only to push the velocity as high as possible. Thanks again I really wanted to know the velocity
This surprised me also. I have shot 777 in all my cap and ball guns for years and my shotguns love the stuff but never gave it a thought about using it for cartridge.
i use T7 FFFG in my loads for cap'n ball but also in 44-40, 45 colt 38 spécial an 12 Gauge, in CAS. light load with filler (recommended by Capt. Georges Baylor, CAS Shooter BP specialist...) without problem. i use same volume as blackpowder and that work well. here in france we find only FFFG, not choice...
Good thing about 777 is it doesn't corrode your gun. I have a long rifle Lancaster 40cal.for over 20 years and my barrel still pretty and shiny and I probably shot it over a 1000 rds and it shoots tight groups and easy to clean.
In 1993 my home was overtaken by the mighty Mississippi flood of 1993, I had several pounds of goex and a pound of pyrodex in my magazine that was underwater for a month plus. When I was able to retrieve my supplies I found that the goex cans were a bit rusty, but overall the powder was fine, and in fact I have the FFFFg can to this day. That powder is still good. The pyrodex was a solid chunk of dirt in the plastic bottle. I can only assume that it drew water, somehow through the seal around the lid. I have never since that day purchased pyrodex, I don't trust it.
From my limited experience with subs, being on my 2nd CVA Accura, first one was a 45, 2nd one a 50 i was always under the impression i had to shoot 777. In the meanwhile i dropped that impression completely and am back to bp. 777 is crushing easier than corned bp - so maybe thats the reason for the warning: crushed powder causing inconsistent burnand pressure spikes. Maybe try 35 and 30 to check the spread ?
From what I've been able to find on the net re. H-777 and cartridges is that ffg is recommended and data published but fffg is not. Supposedly due to lab pressure excursions and aggrvated by any significant compression. I have used H-777 in Schofield brass with 25 gn by volume (1.6 cc Lee dipper approx 17.5 gn by weight) and 2 thin cardboard wads with Desperado 200 gn RNFP Cowboy bullets seated to just "kiss" the the wads. Boomed loudly A lot of smoke and chronographed at 750 +/- 4 fps for 5 shot group. Seemed quite acceptable performance for me. The fired bass was extremely clean. I just shook in water and dash Dawn detergent , rinsed and dried . Good to go No darkening like real BP. I still prefer Sheutzen which I have on hand. But if supplies of BP get tight would not hesitate to use the ff Triple 7 but it is pricey as you mentioned. Loved your video DJ❤
Huh. Interesting. Ima go throw another $3 worth of AMLP ingredients in the ball mill and carry on, but thanks for seeing how that stuff works. I hear Triple Seven of the appropriate granulation is good in percussion frontstuffers and leaves very little residue in the barrel.
Should try what tools and targets does and replace the metal rods on the chronograph with wooden dowels . If you hit on just breaks the dowel and not the chrono . Don’t have a black powder gun but thinking of getting one . Keep up the great videos
Ya I never really had any interest in Black powder guns. Now I have one rifle, one shotgun and one revolver. I don't have the money now, but I'll be adding a blunderbuss to the collection at some point. It's like a crack addiction.
I got some cheap 777 because the shop couldn't sell it to anybody else. Good stuff. My view is you can put any black powder in brass. Just don't over-do it. Brass cases were invented to make it easy'
That "don't use in cartridges" isn't on the cans any more as it used to be..... I thought that perhaps it was there because it doesn't take well to air space in the case.....777 is a bit hotter than real BP, so I'd not use it in an antique Colt wit full loads. Like you I love my real BP... but 777 is always a good standby if supplies are ow (often so in NZ) and I haven't made a batch.... I've used it for shotguns too... 50gr works well. Here in NZ both BP and 777 are about $75 -80 a pound.....
The best answer I could find was that 777 shatters easily upon compression and a loading press can provide enough leverage to shatter the powder and mess up the performance of a high volume load. Conversely 777 apparently does not like any air/gaps either...so again, fine for a muzzle loader where you're pushing the ball down until it rests on the powder, but tricky to control for on a reloading press
Did this myself last year. That’s pretty consistent with my results with 40 gr 3F 777 in 7, 5.5 and 4.75 inch. Your 4.75 has a tad better results than mine which were: 998, 987, 1005, 880 and 977. The longer barrels on mine were a little more often pushing 1100. Substitutes are just more convenient in the moment. 777 will give you a little more, maybe about 50 or 60 fps more…and that’s with my only using 38 gr of Swiss not full 40 gr…but black powder is just more authentic and the difference between 777 and Swiss, to me, says more about Swiss than 777.
Imitation powders work great in revolvers. But, I have found they don't in caplock rifles with flash channels that are not in-line with the flash. In 40 years, the only hangfires I have had were with imitation powders in rifles with 90 degree flash channels - unless I did not clear the channel well enough from the last cleaning, which is extremely rare - maybe 3 times in all those years. Converesley, revolvers have very short, in-line flash channels and are very reliably ignited with imitations. Definitely a cleaner run between wipe downs. Knowing that, I would not hesitate to re-load my .45 Colt with Pyro or any other imitation if I wanted more smoke-n-stuff.
Not sure where you're at, but Great Northern Guns off of Tudor in Anchorage sells real black powder. It's not the cheapest at $40 per pound, but it's there.
Good video. I will keep shooting BP. Many years ago I was shooting muzzle loaders competently. I bought by the case. Bought two cases just before U stopped competing. 24 pounds in a case. I gave $125 a case. When I was competing that amount would not have been enough for a year.
Videos are always educational. I use it in a 209 primer. 50 cal. So, ignition is not a problem. Having real black power for Flint lock is definitely recommended for consistency
I recall reading someplace that 777 has a problem when overly compressed. Perhaps that is more likely in a cartridge with the mechanical advantage of a reloading press as opposed to a ramrod or loading lever. Maybe?
There hasn't been any availability of real black powder in my area for a few years now. It is interesting that this substitute was as decent as it was.
My local gunsmith/fellow BP shooter keeps recommending T-7. I've always been a little hesitant to explore that powder after learning how to make my own BP. Thanks for sharing this.
I shoot 15-20 grains in my 1851 navy. My rule of thumb is, if need two hands on pistol then it's either to big or to much powder, although if in bear country, rule of thumb is a two handed gun.....
I have used Triple 7 when making up loads for .32 rimfire using .32 bullets and .310 roundball in the special cases where you use a .22 Short blank as a primer. It works really well and I got good accuracy out of it.
Where you say ".32 bullets", are you referring to the brass case? If not, what do you use for the case? I use reamed out Brass Compression Insert Tube with the .22 blank and a ball. Thanks!
I bet said projectile can go super sonic out of a longer barrel. It would be interesting to see what you'd get from a rifle with these loads. I.E 1873 or 1892 Winchester. About, the "not suitable for metallic cartridges," I read some where it's a compression and pressure issue. I can see how this would be a thing with antique firearms, but with modern reproduction rifles and pistols made of modern steel with modern heat treatment methods, it shouldn't be an issue.
I've been using 2f 777 for a while now... though I have not done any serious evaluation. I'm shooting it in .44 Special with both a 235 grain and 255 grain Keith-style SWC using a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley. I avoid compressing the powder as Hodgdon recommends against that. They also recommend using 2f powder, just an FYI. One of the nice things about 777 is that you do not need specific black powder lubricant... whatever your bullets are lubed with will work fine. As with all cast bullets, you need to have them sized properly for your individual gun, in my case .332 - 331 diameter. You really don't need to weigh the charges, a set of Lee scoops will work OK, consistency is the thing you are shooting for, but black powder and 777 are both fairly forgiving on that. You really gotta read Hodgdon's articles on the subject before you try this stuff. I'm not putting my charges here as your mileage may vary and it really IS possible to blow up your gun. It burns much cleaner than traditional black powder, which is nice in a revolver as you don't have fowling issues. Another nice side effect is that I don't seem to be getting much leading... if any... and whatever I do get seems to mostly come out with the standard water/Murphy's Oil Soap solvent. As my gun is stainelss steel, I can fully immerse it and scrub it down good after removing the grips. After a rinse, I dry it in a convection oven for ten minutes at 200 degrees, then use conventional solvents like Hoppes No. Nine, use the Lewis Lead Remover if would think I need to, re-lube the revolver and reassemble it. Accuracy could be better, but with my old eyes, I am not prepared to put the blame entirely on the powder.
Thanks, I am a big fan of the 44 Special. I have only used the old standards unique and occasionally bulls-eye in my loads. I have been thinking about loading some black powder and substitutes. I have a stainless Blackhawk. Are you using just enough powder to touch the base of a fully seated bullet? Or are you using a lighter load with a filler? Do you even need a filler with T7? Thanks again for your comment.
There is a local business in my area that caters to BP shooting enthusiast. They seem to have a stash of Goex somehow--probably old stock. With tax, it is almost $50.00/pound. Which is why I order my BP online. Which brings me to my second point. I don't understand why shooters think BP is so hard to come by. Unless you have local laws restricting BP ownership, it is readily available. Buffalo Arms, Powder Inc, Powder Valley all have ample imventories of powder. Graf and Sons have their proprietary brand which seems to be rebranded Schuetzen and the cost is reasonable. I belong to a black powder silhouette club and we order in bulk, which saves on shipping cost.
It's the cost savings of buying in bulk that gets most people. If you're the only guy around that shoots it and can't afford 25lbs, or even 5 lbs then it becomes a problem. For years I was so broke I had to save up for one pound at a time and when they changed the laws, I went to substitute powder because financially I couldn't afford it. Now I just drive to buffalo arms and pick it up when I'm over there about once a year or so.
Awesome video as always. Where I'm at in NC its 31 a pound last i bought. Finally got some graft and sons fffg real black from watching you have fun with the real deal.With shipping it was 25 a pound on sale.
In canada its much more economical to run pyrodex for my needs. Denser, so i get more shots per pound, and less expensive than any of the options for bp here. Swiss is a good 15-20 dollars more and isn’t available locally so i have to ship it.
I remember before biting the bullet and ordering real BP online and having it shipped to get Pyrodex to shoot from my percussion guns I had to drill the flash holes in the nipples over what they come. It made ignition reliable but allows more pressure to be exerted on that end of the system too so my Kentucky Pistol when shooting it with the sabots I used in my inline Muzzleloader would recoil it’s own hammer. So almost wanna say increased bolt thrust but there’s no bolt face. That was a 200gn bullet in a sabot of which I’ve never weighed in a pistol meant for .490 round balls and lubed patches. I bet if the flash hole was nearly nonexistent it would have been fine but it had to be opened up to allow enough spark through to light the Pyrodex. After experiencing real BP I ain’t going back. I’ll use 3x the amount of the fluffiest dirtiest stuff I can come up with before using Pyrodex or Triple 7 or whatever else. Alliant made a great substitute but it never hit the shelves until they had killed it and were selling off the old inventory that was never put out. I wish I knew that when I could get it. BlackMZ was good, noncorrosive (can’t say that for anything Hodgdon has) I could shoot and reload and leave it reloaded for weeks before cleaning and no pitting in the bore. Pyrodex rusts your bore in hours here because the humidity is so high. BlackMZ was also very consistent. I had a reliably 2” grouping load with it at 100 Meters and Pyrodex most people are happy if they hit a paper plate at 50 yards with 1 of 3 shots. I’m not saying accuracy can’t be achieved with Pyrodex because I found loads that weren’t 2 MOA but still would hit that plate at 100 yards every shot and maybe a 3-4” group but never got any better. I think ignition is part of Pyrodex’s problem. I had to replace muzzleloading rifles and when I did my new one never saw Pyrodex and barely seen any BlackMZ since getting my first purchase of BP. I have some Pyrodex but it’s leftover. Stuff rusted my stepdad’s Stainless in-line up so bad it can’t be taken down for cleaning because you can’t see all the fouling and when you put it back together it’s still rusting your gun and breech plug in place. He will have to buy a new muzzleloader if he ever wants to hunt somewhere that has a muzzleloader season again.
Stand further back from the chrono 7-10 yards is what I've been told is ideal unless using a scatter gun. Also the smoke wont interfere unless the wind is blowing from behind.
If I recall they don't hit you with the hazard material charge for Triple 777 like BP. I could be wrong as I've never ordered any I was given the can I have. I see no advantage to it myself over good old BP. I did load 44 colt with it a couple yrs ago just to see why it says not to. I saw no issues using it..
I used it in 20 gauge buckshot and small game loads. Payload weight was 1 oz in both and other than it being horribly dirty it’s a game getter my 10 year old son loves
I get more power with my home made powder in my Pietta Remington 44 than I get with 777. I use 200 grain Lee conicals. If I use 777 it actually loses energy as I increase the charge after a point, I can't compress it very much. I get more power with my home made powder in my Pietta Remington 44 than I get with 777, if I use 777 it actually loses energy as I increase the charge after a point, I can't compress it very much because it becomes counterproductive. It also has a wide spread that increases as you increase compression. My home made powder is very compressible, here is my procedure: 1. Fill the chamber completely with black powder. 2. Compress the powder with the loading lever. Put some strength into it. 3. Fill the chamber to the top again. 4. Again compress the powder in the chamber with the loading lever, give it all you've got. 5. Place the 200gr Lee conical onto the chamber, again, use all you've got with the loading lever, with my powder I can get the bullet into the chamber enough to allow the cylinder to turn, but barely enough. If the bullet doesn't seat deeply enough, I file a tiny bit off the point of the bullet - flat points are better for hunting anyway. This gives me 1000 fps, sometimes slightly more, with a fairly tight spread. The energy gets stupid high for an 1858, good for hunting deer if need be. This is my procedure, not anyone else's. Since I live in the US I have to state the obvious - that I cannot accept liability of others if they try this. Others are on their own - and this is as it should be since it is their body on the line and who better to take responsibility for firearm risk than the person taking the risk anyway. The powder I use this way is uncorned with a low density - 30 grains by volume weighs almost exactly 15 grains, this low density is why I developed this loading method. The power I obtained was a pleasant surprise - it turns out that this uncorned batch of powder is weak if measured by volume, but quite powerful if measured by weight - the light and fluffy powder also tolerates heavy compression very well, with a tight spread and good accuracy. Who would have guessed? This sort of thing is what can make load development fun. because it becomes counterproductive, it also has a wide spread that increases as you increase compression. My home made powder is very compressible, here is my procedure: 1. Fill the chamber completely with black powder. 2. Compress the powder with the loading lever. Put some strength into it. 3. Fill the chamber to the top again. 4. Again compress the powder in the chamber with the loading lever, give it all you've got. 5. Place the 200gr Lee conical onto the chamber, again, use all you've got with the loading lever, with my powder I can get the bullet into the chamber enough to allow the cylinder to turn, but barely enough. If the bullet doesn't seat deeply enough, I file a tiny bit off the point of the bullet - flat points are better for hunting anyway. This gives me 1000 fps, sometimes slightly more, with a fairly tight spread. The energy gets stupid high for an 1858, good for hunting deer if need be. This is my procedure, not anyone else's. Since I live in the US I have to state the obvious - that I cannot accept liability of others if they try this. Others are on their own - and this is as it should be since it is their body on the line and who better to take responsibility for firearm risk than the person taking the risk anyway. The powder I use this way is uncorned with a low density - 30 grains by volume weighs almost exactly 15 grains, this low density is why I developed this loading method. The power I obtained was a pleasant surprise - it turns out that this uncorned batch of powder is weak if measured by volume, but quite powerful if measured by weight - the light and fluffy powder also tolerates heavy compression very well, with a tight spread and good accuracy. Who would have guessed? This sort of thing is what can make load development fun.
Intriguing... I had wondered about using substitutes in cartridges and how it would perform, specifically 777. It would appear that it stacks up pretty nice and on par with Swiss. I still prefer Swiss, but being on the road as much as I am, sometimes I have to use 777. Thank you for this video.
It's all I use in my inlines and fun in cap/ball but yeah, expensive for loading a bunch of brass. Wouldn't use in BP antiques outside of rolling or falling block.
That "do not use un ctdg" sounds more than a suggestion to give it a try, maybe they say not to use cause the posibility of someone without experiencia un BP filling a ctg with an air gap inside, just maybe...as always entertaining, educational and inspiring.
You weighed 40 grains of 777 3F by volume and got 35 grains on a scale. I measured out 40 grain of 2F by volume and weighed it on a scale, and it was 29 grains. I was surprised by that much differ between them when weighed.
Hogdon's does have loading data for Triple Seven but only in ffg, it also comes with the caveat not to compress. It also supposedly (I tend to agree) has 15% more energy per volume than BP. I have plenty of BP on hand but still use 777 partially because it is consistently available near me. I do like it in my 50-95 express as a case full will put me right at what the advertised factory load was even though I use a slightly heavier bullet. I also like 777 in that cartridge as my bullet doesn't hold enough lube to be very effective with BP but it does fine with 777. Really enjoy your channel!
I've seen people ask about 3f 777 in cartridges on the forums and get a hundred comments about how they're going to explode their gun and die in some kind of fireball lol, I don't know what it is about the black powder community and being afraid to just go try shit.
Thank you for sharing Jake, I wanted to make my own, but snitches in the neighborhood here in the hood will tell the sheriff office about it cause here in LA, it's close to impossible to find BP and been forced into getting Pyrodex and subs cause that's the only thing that they sell here, in some shops only a handful, but I DID score some Goex from a guy in the Valley but saving it cause I'd rather use the subs cause they readily available here, so I was curious about the results of your experiment Jake cause well, the reasons I stated, still prefer real BP, hard to clean subs...
In my experience, higher velocity hits higher, lower velocity hits lower. Even at those short distances, no clue why. Both smokeless and black powder has shown me these results.
Another good video. I have used Tripple 7 in some cap and ball revolvers when I could not find real black powder before. Have used Pyrodex more than Tripple 7 but I still prefer the real thing over the subs if I had my choice.
Pyrodex and 777 is all I can get near me. I do not see the issue with substitutes, absent flintlocks issue. I cannot get BP to save my life locally, GOEX is gone for now, though I do have the ingredients to make it myself and plan on doing it. I am willing to bet the guys in the mid-19th century would have loved to use 777 or Pydrodex. As for them not recommending it in cartridges, I am willing to bet it to cover their butts legally from morons. Then again, I just got into this hobby. Thanks for showing it can work in metal cartridges.
Like another comment I’ve heard also from somewhere that 777 doesn’t like to be compressed much. Maybe try 28gr and see if velocity spreads tighten up. If they do then the holy black gets the nod😁
The "no use in cartridges" is likely a corporate liability thing.
Caution do not use 777 in a cartridge
Huh, what do those guys know
F in hilarious. Made my day!!
Thank you
I loaded and shot 777 in thousands of cartridges over 12 years in Cowboy Action Shooting competitions with no issues. I used 17 grains by VOLUME in my .45 colt pistols and rifle. ❤
17 grains by volume for 777 x 3F would be something like 25 grains of Black Powder by the same volume.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 Exactly, and 777 being hotter, it was a great mild load.
What are you meaning that you used only 17 grains to load 45 Colt cartridges?
You clearly are not telling any truth!
Triple 7 is a black powder substitute its not smokeless powder!!
You must be talking about smokeless powder apparently!
If you loaded only 17 grains of volume of triple 7 it would not compress at all! And that would not be good!
45 colt needs a 40 grain or some substitutes you might only be able to use 38 grains or so!
Yes, 17 grains you are talking about must be a smokeless powder charge!
@@oldeays5085 I used a 1 1/2" plug of 3/8" foam caulk backer rod between the powder and the bullet base for compression.
@@oldeays5085 It has more pressure grain for grain. Some people use cornmeal in in BP revolvers to make up the difference.
Back about a year ago, i made contact with someone (i dont want to name names) at Hodgdon about using fffg in handgun cartridges. So i was told that fffg is 10% more “energetic” than ffg, also trip7 is overall 15% more “energetic” than bp or pyrodex. So because the pressures of fffg exceed the bp pressures of these cartridges (im sure those well under ruger type loads) they recommend using ffg. Also, trip7 does not like to be compressed. Its not as forgiving as bp. Thats possibly where the wide spread comes from?!?! Thanks for another great video! Im in the process of building a press for pucking! The prices these days which ever way you look at it are imo gouging!
I remember reading exactly this.
The reason that many BP subs dont work well in flintlocks and cap and ball revolvers is that they are much harder to ignite. Im a propellant chemist and have been making my own versions of sub powders fir many years, the general trend is to replace charcoal with fuels that produce more gas and less solids, and use more powerful oxidizers (perchlorate). Asorbic acid, benzoate, sorbitol, and gluconic acid are examples of fuels that are used. If a sub powder is crushed to a powder durung loading, that makes it even harder ti ignite evenly, the tiny air spaces between propellant granules allows the shock wave from the primer to propagate through the powder charge and hot particles to penetrate better into the charge. Love your channel, keep up the research because powder is only going to get harder to come by, this is a lost art.
I have the same chronograph. My wife shot one of the diffuser support rods with her .308 one day. I gave her a rash of shit for months... Right up until I put a 150 FMJ through the display screen with my .308
She still hasn't let me live it down.
...Rightly so! 🤣👍
“Yeah it shoots high out there”
This is what we call “foreshadowing”. Lol
Great video. I use Swiss in my Flints and Hodgens 777 in my Percussions. With 777 the rule to lower velocity spread is do not compress it. In my .54 rifle I use 60-grains of 777 under a 0.015 patched .535" round ball. When I feel the ball settle against the powder I stop, not tamping. This normally will give a spread of about 30 feet per second.
This channel is definitely inspiring. I got to watching this channel a little over a year ago in the middle of winter and decided that I would learn how to make BP. It worked great!!! I didn’t have a fancy press so I corned it by using a bottle jack under my loaded 1-ton dump truck. Ground it up and sized it with screens. Worked great!!!
Excellent, glad to hear it
I built a small bottle jack press with all thread and square allium and bolts washers simple bolted to a peace of 2x12 works wonders
I've been loading 45 Colt cartridges with Blackhorn 209 black powder substitute. It shoots great, ignites good, still gives you a lot of smoke but with a lot less fauling and much easier to clean.
I really enjoy watching your channel and you give a lot of good information. Great video thank you.
Thank you
Too bad it costs like $85……+ for a measly 8 oz……used to be 10 or 12oz.
Really kicking myself in the arse for not buying more at Wally World a few years back when it was $30-$35 for 12oz. What are ya gonna do? At least I have 2 cans left!
@@johnanderson186 The price is prohibitive!
Ok so you got me thinking, being in Ca I buy whatever is available whenever it's available. I was pretty sure I bought some 777 back when Obama was in office. I haven't been in my reloading room for years as it is stacked to the roof with contracting tools from when I retired but I fought my way in and took a peak.
All I can say is you must be Santa Clause, because it is Christmas in November, I won't give any numbers as it's Ca, but not only 777, but Trailboss, Goex and Swiss on that shelf as well, and rows of large pistol primers.
Next time the wife tells me to get lost, I am going in there and not coming out for weeks.
Great video! Yep, I’m one I’ve those that likes all the propellants and real black powder just the same. 777 3Fg is my favorite substitute. I have loaded cartridges with it for many years. It works. I’ve never experienced any problems by doing so. It’s a stellar performer in my old .32 long black powder revolvers and it shoots relatively clean in them. I like it for a deer hunting load in my Pietta Remington .44 with a 200 grain LEE conical. It gets em good. I also like it in my old .45 CVA Kentucky rife with a LEE 200 grain REAL bullet and a 75 grain by volume charge for deer hunting. This rifle and load averages 1938 FPS as measured on my old chrony F1. That works out to mighty fine energy transfer on the deer and it’s a tight shooting load.
I guy gave me a can of triple 777 he said it sucked. It sat on my self on my loading bench for yrs. I do CAS and shoot Frontier gun fighter and loaded up 38slp and 44 colt with the stuff at the insistence of another shooter and it worked fine. However I see no advantage to it it is expensive and is just as hard to clean up as real BP. I saw no issues with it in a cartridge other than a bit more pressure that shouldn't matter in a modern made revolver like Uberti but I did reduce what would be a black powderl oad by volume. .
Hodge on says use ffg triple 7 in cartridges. In the 45 Colt w/250 they say 30 grains volume for 838fps. Just another great option when our powder selections are unavailable.
This channel is inspiring. Made my first batch of around 4oz milled and milled some more and milled some more then wet into a ball of dough and ran through some window screen to produce what fool mostly to be FFF and been burning it in my Kentucky Pistol with great results 15gn at a time by weight not volume, looks to be between 22 and 25gn volume. Stuff is consistent, shooting at least as good groups as Goex, and I can’t see it as any more dirty than Goex. Hoping to make some the CIA method you showed next month and compare them. Get some more screens and end up putting up 5-10 pounds of FFF since I’m mostly moving to FFF anyway
Excellent!
Friend you have to try corning your powder. There is a video on this channel about how to do it. Its by far the biggest improvement to homemade powder. All you do is press the powder into pucks with a vise or a shop press. They become extremely hard almost like a ceramic. Then you break it up and grind it to 2ff or 3 fff size. This makes the powder as good as store-bought if not better
@@snappers_antique_firearms it makes it more stable too, it won't change grain size as it shakes around.
Too bad I'm not allowed to make BP here in the barrio as we live together too close to neighbors and are nosey and grandma would go on a rant about blowing up the backyard and house, so I have been forced to buy pyrodex as nobody around here in LA sell BP... Good for all the information as knowledge for the future...
Thanks for sharing. - Down here service and 'choice' are long gone - I just buy what I can while sorting-out how to make my own brew of BP antique propellent asap. You do a great job. Cheers.
Thank you
Living in New York have used triple 7 for years in my 45 Colt cartridges. Got to save the precious real stuff for my flintlock. Ps can't sell BP in N.Y.
Understood
@@jameswhite465 No York
I was really hoping you'd know what their issue was with using that in a cartridge.
Sorry to disappoint.
@@Everythingblackpowder I couldn't think of a reason!
@@taofledermaus I’ve heard they have load data for 2F 777 in cartridges but not 3F. Something about erratic burn rates under compression which I suspect is the reason for the wide spread. Either way, onward and upward. Next we’re going to try the same load in a rifle to see how it does.
@@Everythingblackpowder That makes sense. Still appreciate you actually trying it.
@@taofledermaus just doing my civic duty, Sir.
Way back before the component shortages started I was desperate to include something in my kit so I ended up with 1 x 777 (FFG), and 1 x Pyrodex (RS), I haven't seen BP available locally for a number of years and I have yet to crack open the stuff I have. I don't regret having something to play with when the time comes and at this point have no preference anyway. If I ever spy some GOEX or Swiss at a local gunshow it'll end up at home too. haha
777 is potentially pushing the limits on open top Colt replicas. I shot a couple of my cap and ball guns loose. After chronographing, I understood why. My 1851 Navy was pushing 320+ foot pounds energy. My .44 was pushing 500+ fpe. After just a few cylinders of those loads, the loading lever catch had worked loose, the loading lever started falling down, and the central arbor wiggled. The .44 had gone so loose that the hammer no longer reached the caps and the barrel wiggled side to side. After a couple expensive gunsmith bills, I started working to determine a maximum safe 777 load for each gun. I maximally loaded with premium black powder (Swiss 3f or Old Eynsford), then loaded 777 down until it reached those lower velocities. For a .36, 200 foot pounds energy is acceptably powerful and mild on the gun. For a .44, 400 fpe is a hot load, but is reliably handled. Both loads are equivalent to 1,000 feet per second with roundball, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Colt cap and ball designs reach that exact speed with full chambers of black powder. Colt probably intended that to be the maximum velocity of a fully loaded percussion pistol. I load 777 to 80% volume to get those levels.
Are they brass or steel frame guns?
@@Everythingblackpowder Both were steel frame.
Wow
The thing I find with Hodgon's Triple 7, especially fffg Granulation, it DOES "NOT LIKE" too much compression. Why this is so, I don't know for certain, other than chemical reactivity under very firm compression. I'm guessing that 30 to 35 grains would probably yield a smaller velocity spread. It also pays to remember that an "on parity volumetric measurement," Triple 7 burns 15% hotter than an equal measure of Swiss BP, or BP in general regardless of brand, at least according to the company literature. Ergo, a 30 gr. by volume charge of Triple 7 = 34.5 gr.by volume of BP, but with less compression; a 35 gr. by volume of Triple 7 = 40.25 gr. by volume charge of BP. This is using Triple 7 in (fffg) granulation.
Another point to consider is that a 4 3/4 inch barreled Colt or a Colt clone, is basically a close quarters "gun fighter's" pistol (5 yards distance) where you snap shoot with only your front sight aligned with the centerline of your opponent between the sternum and his belly. Do that, and you're virtually guaranteed a "knockdown hit" on your 'opponent' with your FIRST SHOT. Remember: "Aim well, but do it quickly."
According to instructions for cartridge loads for 777 - use FFG and it says to avoid compressing powder.
In a reproduction revolver I would hesitate to using FFFG / Compression in a reproduction revolver - in Ruger would be better.
That’s why I always test these kind of loads in my Ruger.
Missed this one - great comparative - well done again mate - cheers
Works very well in percussion devices. It does corrode if you do not clean in a timely manor.
When I began the journey of black powder, Pyrodex was the only thing to be had in my area $20 pound (Now 2023 I think $27) Black Powder was no where close still 160 mile round trip, add the needless mark up of black powder between $39-$49 a pound plus travel......Nah Pyrodex works well I will grab Triple 7 if there. Pyrodex RS and P are always on a shelf. Funny picked on degraded but yet no one wants to step out in front of it to show me how "WEAK" or "INACCURATE" it is...
Hi Jake, In Australia we pay $152 per plastic bottle of 3F Blackpowder . That’s about $100 USD on current change over rate. A tin of caps 100 per tin $10 USD. Flints $6 each. You guys have it pretty good over there.
Your videos always inspire me to go out and shoot more BP. I love my modern guns, but nothing beats hunting or shooting the guns of our ancestors.
Glad to hear it
Thank you I dont think I have ever been accused of being polite lol. By the way I love 40 grains of 777 in 45 colt. I like the substitute only for cartridges and only to push the velocity as high as possible. Thanks again I really wanted to know the velocity
You bet
This surprised me also. I have shot 777 in all my cap and ball guns for years and my shotguns love the stuff but never gave it a thought about using it for cartridge.
Very cool. I picked up some 777 for my 1858 Remington a couple years ago, love it. My only experience before that war pyrodex
Black and never go Back!! 3f Baby! thanks for your Great vid!!!
One things for sure - you aren’t getting more of that 777 into that brass than you did here.
Interesting results. Thank you for posting.
Thank you
Great video. I always get great results with 777 in my flintlock......just kidding. I can't even type that with a straight face. Have a good day.
Bought a bunch of 777 cheap after deer season 5 years ago. Works great in 45-70. Still like Black better, but 777 has some balls.
i use T7 FFFG in my loads for cap'n ball but also in 44-40, 45 colt 38 spécial an 12 Gauge, in CAS. light load with filler (recommended by Capt. Georges Baylor, CAS Shooter BP specialist...) without problem. i use same volume as blackpowder and that work well. here in france we find only FFFG, not choice...
Good thing about 777 is it doesn't corrode your gun. I have a long rifle Lancaster 40cal.for over 20 years and my barrel still pretty and shiny and I probably shot it over a 1000 rds and it shoots tight groups and easy to clean.
In 1993 my home was overtaken by the mighty Mississippi flood of 1993, I had several pounds of goex and a pound of pyrodex in my magazine that was underwater for a month plus.
When I was able to retrieve my supplies I found that the goex cans were a bit rusty, but overall the powder was fine, and in fact I have the FFFFg can to this day. That powder is still good.
The pyrodex was a solid chunk of dirt in the plastic bottle. I can only assume that it drew water, somehow through the seal around the lid. I have never since that day purchased pyrodex, I don't trust it.
From my limited experience with subs, being on my 2nd CVA Accura, first one was a 45, 2nd one a 50 i was always under the impression i had to shoot 777. In the meanwhile i dropped that impression completely and am back to bp. 777 is crushing easier than corned bp - so maybe thats the reason for the warning: crushed powder causing inconsistent burnand pressure spikes. Maybe try 35 and 30 to check the spread ?
More data is always a good thing and thank you for putting it out.
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder how about trying 777 in 45/70 Trapdoor
Load my 44’s like this. Scoop to the top Squeeze in a projectile and have some fun.
I have heard that compression is the issue. Supposedly it causes the variation between shots. Just what I've been told.
I wouldn’t doubt it
Kamala Harris has a widespread.
@@straightpride451 I keep hearing she’s running ads on my videos. Ain’t that some shit…
From what I've been able to find on the net re. H-777 and cartridges is that ffg is recommended and data published but fffg is not. Supposedly due to lab pressure excursions and aggrvated by any significant compression. I have used H-777 in Schofield brass with 25 gn by volume (1.6 cc Lee dipper approx 17.5 gn by weight) and 2 thin cardboard wads with Desperado 200 gn RNFP Cowboy bullets seated to just "kiss" the the wads. Boomed loudly A lot of smoke and chronographed at 750 +/- 4 fps for 5 shot group.
Seemed quite acceptable performance for me. The fired bass was extremely clean. I just shook in water and dash Dawn detergent , rinsed and dried . Good to go No darkening like real BP. I still prefer Sheutzen which I have on hand. But if supplies of BP get tight would not
hesitate to use the ff Triple 7 but it is pricey as you mentioned. Loved your video DJ❤
Forgot to include that I used the ffg Triple 7 sorry
My bad again I was firing a Pietta 4 3/4 " SAA🙁 DJ
Another Great Video! Now we need a Blackhorn 209 test. Thanks for taking all the guess work out for us Jake!
Happy to help
Huh. Interesting. Ima go throw another $3 worth of AMLP ingredients in the ball mill and carry on, but thanks for seeing how that stuff works. I hear Triple Seven of the appropriate granulation is good in percussion frontstuffers and leaves very little residue in the barrel.
Thanks 👍
A Great bit of information on powders Thanks
Should try what tools and targets does and replace the metal rods on the chronograph with wooden dowels . If you hit on just breaks the dowel and not the chrono . Don’t have a black powder gun but thinking of getting one . Keep up the great videos
Thank you
Ya I never really had any interest in Black powder guns. Now I have one rifle, one shotgun and one revolver. I don't have the money now, but I'll be adding a blunderbuss to the collection at some point. It's like a crack addiction.
I got some cheap 777 because the shop couldn't sell it to anybody else. Good stuff. My view is you can put any black powder in brass. Just don't over-do it. Brass cases were invented to make it easy'
That "don't use in cartridges" isn't on the cans any more as it used to be..... I thought that perhaps it was there because it doesn't take well to air space in the case.....777 is a bit hotter than real BP, so I'd not use it in an antique Colt wit full loads. Like you I love my real BP... but 777 is always a good standby if supplies are ow (often so in NZ) and I haven't made a batch.... I've used it for shotguns too... 50gr works well.
Here in NZ both BP and 777 are about $75 -80 a pound.....
The best answer I could find was that 777 shatters easily upon compression and a loading press can provide enough leverage to shatter the powder and mess up the performance of a high volume load. Conversely 777 apparently does not like any air/gaps either...so again, fine for a muzzle loader where you're pushing the ball down until it rests on the powder, but tricky to control for on a reloading press
Did this myself last year. That’s pretty consistent with my results with 40 gr 3F 777 in 7, 5.5 and 4.75 inch. Your 4.75 has a tad better results than mine which were: 998, 987, 1005, 880 and 977. The longer barrels on mine were a little more often pushing 1100.
Substitutes are just more convenient in the moment. 777 will give you a little more, maybe about 50 or 60 fps more…and that’s with my only using 38 gr of Swiss not full 40 gr…but black powder is just more authentic and the difference between 777 and Swiss, to me, says more about Swiss than 777.
Imitation powders work great in revolvers. But, I have found they don't in caplock rifles with flash channels that are not in-line with the flash. In 40 years, the only hangfires I have had were with imitation powders in rifles with 90 degree flash channels - unless I did not clear the channel well enough from the last cleaning, which is extremely rare - maybe 3 times in all those years.
Converesley, revolvers have very short, in-line flash channels and are very reliably ignited with imitations. Definitely a cleaner run between wipe downs.
Knowing that, I would not hesitate to re-load my .45 Colt with Pyro or any other imitation if I wanted more smoke-n-stuff.
This channel is inspiring.
In Australia Swiss is around $200AU/kilo. The German made Wano isn't far behind. Those brands of BP are all we can get.
We have a hard time getting real BP up here in AK. Unless you make it the second most reliable supply is substitutes.
Not sure where you're at, but Great Northern Guns off of Tudor in Anchorage sells real black powder. It's not the cheapest at $40 per pound, but it's there.
@@jeredhersh789that’s good to know I will check it out!
Really liked seeing the smoke blast take off in the wind
Fair review. I've used it lots in my C&B, but I'm no connoisseur of powders. The powder I have on-hand is my favourite.
Good video. I will keep shooting BP. Many years ago I was shooting muzzle loaders competently. I bought by the case. Bought two cases just before U stopped competing. 24 pounds in a case. I gave $125 a case. When I was competing that amount would not have been enough for a year.
Videos are always educational. I use it in a 209 primer. 50 cal. So, ignition is not a problem.
Having real black power for Flint lock is definitely recommended for consistency
I recall reading someplace that 777 has a problem when overly compressed. Perhaps that is more likely in a cartridge with the mechanical advantage of a reloading press as opposed to a ramrod or loading lever. Maybe?
Very possible
Would using a drop tube compress to much?
There hasn't been any availability of real black powder in my area for a few years now. It is interesting that this substitute was as decent as it was.
Been waiting for this. Would like to see how it performs out of a rifle. Thanks for showing us so much. I really enjoy the channel.
Thanks for your hard work.
Thank you
My local gunsmith/fellow BP shooter keeps recommending T-7. I've always been a little hesitant to explore that powder after learning how to make my own BP. Thanks for sharing this.
Swiss as of March 2024 is $47 at my local muzzloading shop which is way up from where it was even a year ago.
I shoot 15-20 grains in my 1851 navy. My rule of thumb is, if need two hands on pistol then it's either to big or to much powder, although if in bear country, rule of thumb is a two handed gun.....
I never thought I'd see the day 😂
Don’t tell anybody.
I have used Triple 7 when making up loads for .32 rimfire using .32 bullets and .310 roundball in the special cases where you use a .22 Short blank as a primer. It works really well and I got good accuracy out of it.
Where you say ".32 bullets", are you referring to the brass case? If not, what do you use for the case? I use reamed out Brass Compression Insert Tube with the .22 blank and a ball. Thanks!
I bet said projectile can go super sonic out of a longer barrel. It would be interesting to see what you'd get from a rifle with these loads. I.E 1873 or 1892 Winchester. About, the "not suitable for metallic cartridges," I read some where it's a compression and pressure issue. I can see how this would be a thing with antique firearms, but with modern reproduction rifles and pistols made of modern steel with modern heat treatment methods, it shouldn't be an issue.
Agreed
We get it my friend. Anybody that's crafting their own beer is of course going to say Bud Light is trash. Especially today 😂❤
Great video, Thank you.
Thank you
Jake, you know MORE about black powder than I do. But what you just demonstrated, I had always thought it was possible. Keep doing what you're doing!👍
Thank you
Can you do it with jacketed bullets?
I've been using 2f 777 for a while now... though I have not done any serious evaluation. I'm shooting it in .44 Special with both a 235 grain and 255 grain Keith-style SWC using a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley. I avoid compressing the powder as Hodgdon recommends against that. They also recommend using 2f powder, just an FYI. One of the nice things about 777 is that you do not need specific black powder lubricant... whatever your bullets are lubed with will work fine. As with all cast bullets, you need to have them sized properly for your individual gun, in my case .332 - 331 diameter. You really don't need to weigh the charges, a set of Lee scoops will work OK, consistency is the thing you are shooting for, but black powder and 777 are both fairly forgiving on that. You really gotta read Hodgdon's articles on the subject before you try this stuff. I'm not putting my charges here as your mileage may vary and it really IS possible to blow up your gun. It burns much cleaner than traditional black powder, which is nice in a revolver as you don't have fowling issues. Another nice side effect is that I don't seem to be getting much leading... if any... and whatever I do get seems to mostly come out with the standard water/Murphy's Oil Soap solvent. As my gun is stainelss steel, I can fully immerse it and scrub it down good after removing the grips. After a rinse, I dry it in a convection oven for ten minutes at 200 degrees, then use conventional solvents like Hoppes No. Nine, use the Lewis Lead Remover if would think I need to, re-lube the revolver and reassemble it. Accuracy could be better, but with my old eyes, I am not prepared to put the blame entirely on the powder.
Thanks, I am a big fan of the 44 Special. I have only used the old standards unique and occasionally bulls-eye in my loads.
I have been thinking about loading some black powder and substitutes.
I have a stainless Blackhawk.
Are you using just enough powder to touch the base of a fully seated bullet? Or are you using a lighter load with a filler? Do you even need a filler with T7?
Thanks again for your comment.
There is a local business in my area that caters to BP shooting enthusiast. They seem to have a stash of Goex somehow--probably old stock. With tax, it is almost $50.00/pound. Which is why I order my BP online. Which brings me to my second point. I don't understand why shooters think BP is so hard to come by. Unless you have local laws restricting BP ownership, it is readily available. Buffalo Arms, Powder Inc, Powder Valley all have ample imventories of powder. Graf and Sons have their proprietary brand which seems to be rebranded Schuetzen and the cost is reasonable. I belong to a black powder silhouette club and we order in bulk, which saves on shipping cost.
It's the cost savings of buying in bulk that gets most people. If you're the only guy around that shoots it and can't afford 25lbs, or even 5 lbs then it becomes a problem. For years I was so broke I had to save up for one pound at a time and when they changed the laws, I went to substitute powder because financially I couldn't afford it. Now I just drive to buffalo arms and pick it up when I'm over there about once a year or so.
Awesome video as always. Where I'm at in NC its 31 a pound last i bought. Finally got some graft and sons fffg real black from watching you have fun with the real deal.With shipping it was 25 a pound on sale.
Excellent
In canada its much more economical to run pyrodex for my needs. Denser, so i get more shots per pound, and less expensive than any of the options for bp here. Swiss is a good 15-20 dollars more and isn’t available locally so i have to ship it.
I remember before biting the bullet and ordering real BP online and having it shipped to get Pyrodex to shoot from my percussion guns I had to drill the flash holes in the nipples over what they come. It made ignition reliable but allows more pressure to be exerted on that end of the system too so my Kentucky Pistol when shooting it with the sabots I used in my inline Muzzleloader would recoil it’s own hammer. So almost wanna say increased bolt thrust but there’s no bolt face. That was a 200gn bullet in a sabot of which I’ve never weighed in a pistol meant for .490 round balls and lubed patches. I bet if the flash hole was nearly nonexistent it would have been fine but it had to be opened up to allow enough spark through to light the Pyrodex. After experiencing real BP I ain’t going back. I’ll use 3x the amount of the fluffiest dirtiest stuff I can come up with before using Pyrodex or Triple 7 or whatever else. Alliant made a great substitute but it never hit the shelves until they had killed it and were selling off the old inventory that was never put out. I wish I knew that when I could get it. BlackMZ was good, noncorrosive (can’t say that for anything Hodgdon has) I could shoot and reload and leave it reloaded for weeks before cleaning and no pitting in the bore. Pyrodex rusts your bore in hours here because the humidity is so high. BlackMZ was also very consistent. I had a reliably 2” grouping load with it at 100 Meters and Pyrodex most people are happy if they hit a paper plate at 50 yards with 1 of 3 shots. I’m not saying accuracy can’t be achieved with Pyrodex because I found loads that weren’t 2 MOA but still would hit that plate at 100 yards every shot and maybe a 3-4” group but never got any better. I think ignition is part of Pyrodex’s problem. I had to replace muzzleloading rifles and when I did my new one never saw Pyrodex and barely seen any BlackMZ since getting my first purchase of BP. I have some Pyrodex but it’s leftover. Stuff rusted my stepdad’s Stainless in-line up so bad it can’t be taken down for cleaning because you can’t see all the fouling and when you put it back together it’s still rusting your gun and breech plug in place. He will have to buy a new muzzleloader if he ever wants to hunt somewhere that has a muzzleloader season again.
Stand further back from the chrono 7-10 yards is what I've been told is ideal unless using a scatter gun. Also the smoke wont interfere unless the wind is blowing from behind.
If I recall they don't hit you with the hazard material charge for Triple 777 like BP. I could be wrong as I've never ordered any I was given the can I have. I see no advantage to it myself over good old BP. I did load 44 colt with it a couple yrs ago just to see why it says not to. I saw no issues using it..
I used it in 20 gauge buckshot and small game loads. Payload weight was 1 oz in both and other than it being horribly dirty it’s a game getter my 10 year old son loves
Dollars out the door are a lot different if you order online, hazmat explosive shipping is +$30 standard so keep that in mind.
Don't compress 777 , use very little compression if any, it actually works very well.
Great video
They have data for their 2f for cartridges. Maybe another test?
I get more power with my home made powder in my Pietta Remington 44 than I get with 777. I use 200 grain Lee conicals. If I use 777 it actually loses energy as I increase the charge after a point, I can't compress it very much. I get more power with my home made powder in my Pietta Remington 44 than I get with 777, if I use 777 it actually loses energy as I increase the charge after a point, I can't compress it very much because it becomes counterproductive. It also has a wide spread that increases as you increase compression. My home made powder is very compressible, here is my procedure:
1. Fill the chamber completely with black powder.
2. Compress the powder with the loading lever. Put some strength into it.
3. Fill the chamber to the top again.
4. Again compress the powder in the chamber with the loading lever, give it all you've got.
5. Place the 200gr Lee conical onto the chamber, again, use all you've got with the loading lever, with my powder I can get the bullet into the chamber enough to allow the cylinder to turn, but barely enough. If the bullet doesn't seat deeply enough, I file a tiny bit off the point of the bullet - flat points are better for hunting anyway.
This gives me 1000 fps, sometimes slightly more, with a fairly tight spread. The energy gets stupid high for an 1858, good for hunting deer if need be.
This is my procedure, not anyone else's.
Since I live in the US I have to state the obvious - that I cannot accept liability of others if they try this. Others are on their own - and this is as it should be since it is their body on the line and who better to take responsibility for firearm risk than the person taking the risk anyway.
The powder I use this way is uncorned with a low density - 30 grains by volume weighs almost exactly 15 grains, this low density is why I developed this loading method. The power I obtained was a pleasant surprise - it turns out that this uncorned batch of powder is weak if measured by volume, but quite powerful if measured by weight - the light and fluffy powder also tolerates heavy compression very well, with a tight spread and good accuracy. Who would have guessed? This sort of thing is what can make load development fun. because it becomes counterproductive, it also has a wide spread that increases as you increase compression. My home made powder is very compressible, here is my procedure:
1. Fill the chamber completely with black powder.
2. Compress the powder with the loading lever. Put some strength into it.
3. Fill the chamber to the top again.
4. Again compress the powder in the chamber with the loading lever, give it all you've got.
5. Place the 200gr Lee conical onto the chamber, again, use all you've got with the loading lever, with my powder I can get the bullet into the chamber enough to allow the cylinder to turn, but barely enough. If the bullet doesn't seat deeply enough, I file a tiny bit off the point of the bullet - flat points are better for hunting anyway.
This gives me 1000 fps, sometimes slightly more, with a fairly tight spread. The energy gets stupid high for an 1858, good for hunting deer if need be.
This is my procedure, not anyone else's.
Since I live in the US I have to state the obvious - that I cannot accept liability of others if they try this. Others are on their own - and this is as it should be since it is their body on the line and who better to take responsibility for firearm risk than the person taking the risk anyway.
The powder I use this way is uncorned with a low density - 30 grains by volume weighs almost exactly 15 grains, this low density is why I developed this loading method. The power I obtained was a pleasant surprise - it turns out that this uncorned batch of powder is weak if measured by volume, but quite powerful if measured by weight - the light and fluffy powder also tolerates heavy compression very well, with a tight spread and good accuracy. Who would have guessed? This sort of thing is what can make load development fun.
Intriguing... I had wondered about using substitutes in cartridges and how it would perform, specifically 777. It would appear that it stacks up pretty nice and on par with Swiss. I still prefer Swiss, but being on the road as much as I am, sometimes I have to use 777. Thank you for this video.
Thank you
It's all I use in my inlines and fun in cap/ball but yeah, expensive for loading a bunch of brass. Wouldn't use in BP antiques outside of rolling or falling block.
That "do not use un ctdg" sounds more than a suggestion to give it a try, maybe they say not to use cause the posibility of someone without experiencia un BP filling a ctg with an air gap inside, just maybe...as always entertaining, educational and inspiring.
Thank you
You weighed 40 grains of 777 3F by volume and got 35 grains on a scale. I measured out 40 grain of 2F by volume and weighed it on a scale, and it was 29 grains. I was surprised by that much differ between them when weighed.
Hogdon's does have loading data for Triple Seven but only in ffg, it also comes with the caveat not to compress. It also supposedly (I tend to agree) has 15% more energy per volume than BP. I have plenty of BP on hand but still use 777 partially because it is consistently available near me. I do like it in my 50-95 express as a case full will put me right at what the advertised factory load was even though I use a slightly heavier bullet. I also like 777 in that cartridge as my bullet doesn't hold enough lube to be very effective with BP but it does fine with 777. Really enjoy your channel!
Thank you
Colt walker numbers, which I’m happy with because of the 45 lc conversion
I've seen people ask about 3f 777 in cartridges on the forums and get a hundred comments about how they're going to explode their gun and die in some kind of fireball lol, I don't know what it is about the black powder community and being afraid to just go try shit.
Lol I know it’s awful. As we like to say. “If anything’s gunna happen, it’s gunna happen out there”
Thank you for sharing Jake, I wanted to make my own, but snitches in the neighborhood here in the hood will tell the sheriff office about it cause here in LA, it's close to impossible to find BP and been forced into getting Pyrodex and subs cause that's the only thing that they sell here, in some shops only a handful, but I DID score some Goex from a guy in the Valley but saving it cause I'd rather use the subs cause they readily available here, so I was curious about the results of your experiment Jake cause well, the reasons I stated, still prefer real BP, hard to clean subs...
Thank you for making great videos That are educational And entertaining to watch.
Thank you
In my experience, higher velocity hits higher, lower velocity hits lower. Even at those short distances, no clue why. Both smokeless and black powder has shown me these results.
Another good video. I have used Tripple 7 in some cap and ball revolvers when I could not find real black powder before. Have used Pyrodex more than Tripple 7 but I still prefer the real thing over the subs if I had my choice.
Pyrodex and 777 is all I can get near me. I do not see the issue with substitutes, absent flintlocks issue. I cannot get BP to save my life locally, GOEX is gone for now, though I do have the ingredients to make it myself and plan on doing it. I am willing to bet the guys in the mid-19th century would have loved to use 777 or Pydrodex. As for them not recommending it in cartridges, I am willing to bet it to cover their butts legally from morons. Then again, I just got into this hobby. Thanks for showing it can work in metal cartridges.
Like another comment I’ve heard also from somewhere that 777 doesn’t like to be compressed much. Maybe try 28gr and see if velocity spreads tighten up. If they do then the holy black gets the nod😁
I’ve been wondering about this for a while, thanks for testing it. A test with blackhorn 209 would be great too if you ever get the chance.