I'm really enjoying this "accidental" series. I got my first black powder rifle about 20 years ago as a Christmas present from my wife. Since then, the black powder bug has bitten me quite a lot. I now own about the same number of black powder rifles, revolvers and pistols as I do modern guns. I find it to be a very enjoyable hobby. ( One my wife probably regrets getting me into. LOL) My only problem is that I don't have any friends or family that are interested in the history or the shooting of theses firearms. So I have no one to discuss or enjoy a day of shooting these great guns from the past.
Hi Don, I think shooting black powder rifles and handguns is very relaxing. There is simply no way to rush things. I don’t shoot BP a lot, but I always enjoy it when I do. For discussing the topic, you might want to check out the Muzzleloading forum. There’s a lot of great talk there. Best of kuck!
While hiking I had to use a 36 cal navy in a "defensive" situation. A large feral dog threatened me and so I can say these revolvers still can be called on to do their duty as it were
I'm glad you're using something more substantial than Goex. Goex is a very low power propellant. Swiss black powder and 777 are all I use anymore. I look forward to your conical bullet video. I use 30 grains 777 or Swiss fff behind a Kaido conical bullet in my Pietta Remington new model army revolvers to great effect. Pietta makes great, high strength Remington reproductions which can repeatedly take stout loadings! I don't use over-powder wads since they often contain a lubricant which leaches (or can be squeezed during loading) into the powder when stored for a long time, which can cause hangfires, misfires, and inconsistent power output. Instead I smear a mixture of Crisco and beeswax over the front face of the loaded bullets when I use lubricant.
This is one of the better series I've seen on this topic, perhaps a test of round balls versus conicals in some sort of ballistics medium using the goex and triple seven to compare penetration between the different powders and projectiles would cover these revolvers effectiveness in a defensive role from every angle. By the way, that's a nice pair of revolvers.
@@hrfunk Next 35 and 40 grain charges of Swiss fffg under a .454 round ball no wad just grease over the loaded chamber mouth. Should be devastating. :D
I have had many years of good results using 28 grains goex ffff and a .457 soft lead round ball no wad and half beef tallow half beeswax to seal the cylinder. I carry an early 1858 clone defensively daily and have had no noticeable power loss or accuracy loss from long term loading. Love your videos. All the best.
Keep in mind that T7 is unstable powder and it will loose effectiveness over time. (after really long time I've seen similar charges doing 200ish fps instead of 900ish). For self defense use only real black powder and possibly Swiss or Old Eynsford as these are as powerful as T7 but do not degrade unless moisture is present. Do not use .451 round balls because they do not grasp the chamber very well and pressure does not build as well as with .454 balls and even better with conicals. Black powder and propellants generate limited velocities unlike modern smokeless powders so old timers went with mass rather than velocity to achieve greater energy ! Heck, this is why the muskets used .69 balls! In order to get 400+ ft/lbs use of heavy conicals is necessary. I managed to get about 450 ft/lbs with 35 grains of very fine FFFFg Swiss Powder and 200 grainc conical ! Back in the day, during civil war, they used fine HAZARD powder and conicals and these gun easily generated in excess of 300 ft/lbs. If you read accounts from that time, soldiers complained about snappy recoil with .44 and prefered .36 caliber ! Army even reduced their loadings in paper cartridges from 30 to 25 grains ! Fine FFFFg powder under heavy conical is very snappy !
I worry a little about that kind of pressure in revolvers of this type. In a Ruger Old Army, I might push them that hard, but I don't know about your average Pietta NMA.
@@hrfunk Mine hasn't blown up but I cannot ensure somebody else's won't. After just only 5 shots, mild coining on the recoil shield could be observed. However, 30 grs of T7 and 200 grain conical is perfectly safe and it should boost your energy to about 325 ft/lbs.
I think if you stay within the realm of black powder cartridge ballistics, they shouldn’t break/wear out too fast. On the other hand, I just don’t know how hard I want to step on the accelerator with these old wheelies.
@@hrfunk next time you order round balls try .454 really! I can assure you that the difference in velocity will be serious ! You will easily get about 50 fps more velocity just by going to .454 balls. Type black powder ballistics in google and enter the poconoshootingrange.com to see how serious and how powerful these guns are ! Best data on these on the internet, ask you me!
HR Much better numbers with 777. But the Goex numbers still seemed low. Maybe some gas leakage in the chamber or barrel with 451 balls. Try some 454 round balls and Goex. The nice thing about BP weapons is the gun itself is your reloading bench. Thanks for the video enjoyed it.
I agree it would be very interesting to see what the larger balls would do. And a charge of goex up to 40 grains should be perfectly safe. I am guessing that the sweet spot may be around 35gr especially in the Sheriff.
The thing is that so many RUclipsrs test modern 380ACP and up in gel and so on. But those are mostly effective in penetration and/or damage. But whats really interresting is the loads that is on the border line, like blackpowoder guns, 31, 36 and 44 guns, but also like factory cowboy action loads. I really would like to see more tests on these old guns!
I've never used black powder, since the early 70's always used Pyrodex till the 80's switched to 777 & never looked back. I've always used .454 balls in all my revolvers, Army San Marcos, Pietta & Uberti, don't know if that would have an effect on velocity or accuracy. I load by weight rather than volume, 777 is easy, .777% of it's volume, I load 23.5gr by weight in my handgun revolvers & 27gr in my Uberti carbine, just love that gun.Keep the vids coming!
You are going to find that a heavier conical will burn the powder more efficiently.That’s what I found with my 255 grain flat nose that I currently use in my revolvers. Also You can up the powder charge quite a lot in the Remington.it can definitely handle it. 1000ft/s even with a heavy conical is easily achieved with hotter loads of 777. I’ve fired a few thousand Hot loads with heavy projectiles and there is no visible signs of wear on any of my Remingtons. The colts will eventually batter the wedge, but that is an easy replacement part. Under no circumstances try with a brass framed revolver! Good video! Looking forward to you next one!
Should look at the Kirst cartridge conversions for the Remington., especially the gated version. Gives you 45 ball or low end 45 Colt ballistics, much improved over blackpowder loads with cap and ball, smokeless , and speed of reloading
Great results with triple seven. The triple seven does compress a lot more than black powder. In my black powder carbine ,as an experiment , I filled the cylinders to the brim with triple seven ,and found that the balls would seat flush. Accuracy went to pot though. And having no way to know the pressure , I decided not to do that again.
More potent by far, these were formidable weapons in their day from what I have read. The soft lead round ball would likely cause a bad wound and curious to see how the conical performs in your future test, would guess it due to weight and design would penetrate deeper.
Happy accidents are always the best. Used the discount last night when I ordered some spare mags for my 783 and a set of scope rings for the AR. Here's hoping they send you some good stuff to test.
Load compression has a lot to do with shot to shot consistency as well as velocity. If you played with a Black powder cartridge rifle you can really learn the ins and outs of how to get the most out of a black powder cartridge. I think that if you were to make paper cartridges and charge them by using a drop tube, you would possibly get Goex to work similarly to 777. When loading 777 since it is more powerful, you would have to see if you can swap volume for volume. Some bp substitutes you can some you are suppose to download as they actually do produce more pressure. Not sure about 777 I haven’t played with it. I might add also, with conical bullets you will get more energy from either, as you call load bullets that weigh quite a bit more than 140 something grain round balls. Eras Gone makes some authentic molds for those pistols. Great video!!
That’s my understanding too. I tried to be very consistent when compressing these loads, but I don’t have any sort of gauge to measure the amount of force I’m using.
@@hrfunk Didn't I say that last crappy results were due to - crappy - goex powder? It's perfectly possible to achieve over 400 ft\lbs with these guns and proper podwder/projectile selection !
@@GlockamoleG17 I managed to get about 1000 fps with 35 grains of fine FFFFg Swiss powder and 200 grain lee conical bullet out of my standard pietta NMA revolver. This translates to 580 Joules = 420 ft/lbs. Mike Believeu got 470 ft/lbs with 30 grains of T7 and 225 conical ! Doesn't matter that he used ROA because I can pack just as much in my 1858 ! My 1858 was just fine after testing apart from minor coining on the recoil shield!
Excellent video thank you sir. Definitely looking forward to the results for .454 round ball and 30gr 777 and conical with 30gr 777. Great content love the channel.
*Mr. Funk, If you ever revisit this... consider FFF SWISS brand at 35 grains {no wad} .457" round ball and apply unsalted Crisco or 'tallow and bee's wax' or other bullet lube/non-petroleum unsalted grease over the top of the ball in such a way as to fill up the chamber to level full with chamber mouth. Scrape away excess with plastic or wooden card. This should be more like the original loading and might gain you some speed. Conical can be interesting, as well... and without the wad...under a conical you might get about 30 grains in there. Conical might provide surprising speed with approximately the punch of a short barrel { officer's model } 45 ACP. I have seen FFFFg { 4 F } used in revolvers and do not recommend it.*
Black powder cleanup with soap and warm water is not a difficult process. There is a caveat here, though. When black powder was getting started, information was rather slim. Many new shooters were trying the lubes they were familiar with - i.e. petroleum based lubes. Petroleum products, after being subjected to firing pressures and temps, leave behind a tar like residue. VERY difficult to clean. But natural lubes are an easy cleanup with soap and water.
I've seen in other black powder firearms better performance with projectiles that we would consider today to be heavy for caliber. I have to wonder for defensive purposes if a simple swaged .451 cylinder the same length as the conical ball might produce a better result at normal defensive distances?
www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=68_82 These are apparently cast at 452, but if 454 balls work these should be a reasonably good fit. I don't know how long a bullet you could get to seat flush with your cylinder front, and I am not sure that it would be a good idea to use a hollow base wad cutter without reversing the projectile.
@@donhumberson1279 Hollow base down may work well act like a minie ball. I do know in the Navy Conversion cylinders the normal cartridge is a 38 long Colt but 38 special hollow based wadcutters are also recommended. And will fit. Hollow base will grab the rifling better.
@@donhumberson1279 I have fired soft lead .452 cartridge bullets out of my revolvers. They worked but didn’t try enough to see if they were accurate but they not being heeled were somewhat a chore to load.
The 777 in my opinion is a great powder just don’t load the Italy weapons too hot it could be deadly for the shooter , thanks for the video , I used to do cowboy action and there weren’t many of the Italy weapons used
Pietta's newer guns are strong enough now, but I'm not sure it's all that necessary to load "hot" with 777. On average it generates as much or more pressure per volume load as Swiss ffff, but with a significantly slower burn. I don't have a .44 right now, but my safe max load in my 2019 7½" .36 M1851 is 27 grains 3fg 777. (22 to 25 is my rabbit load and 17ish is my "plinking with the kids" load.) There is only a little more down range power with that max load, but with a notable degradation in accuracy. I think there's just not enough time for the majority of the substitute powder to burn above 23 grains in that gun and it does spooky sh_t to that little .375 round ball. So no advantage to a "hot" load. In my 1973 Pietta 1851 I would not load more than 18 grains 777. The metallurgy just isn't the quality of the newer gun.
Been looking at 777 for cartridge guns. 777 produces more pressure than black. I don't think I would use it in brass frames revolvers. Thanks for the video.
Most of the black powder substitutes seem to have higher pressure than black powder. Rule of thumb is reduce by about 15 percent for substitutes when used over black powder. I prefer to load real black powder in 38 special and 45 Long Colt cases for my revolvers. I don't know how the substitutes will affect long term pressures on these guns.
I think “better” is a point of view. If someone is trying to replicate the experience of shooting tin the mid-19th century, then Triple 7 is not an option. In the other hand, if one is trying to maximize the performance of modern cap&ball arms, then 777 might just be the way to go.
@@hrfunk With the same 30 grain charge of 777 and a .454 ball you're definitely gonna get well over 1,000 fps (8" barrel). I know that may seem strange, but it's already been tested and proven. It would be interesting to see a comparison between a .454 and a .457 round ball. Btw. I love your cap and ball films!
Higher velocity always equates to longer range and flatter trajectory. This is true whether you're using black powder or smokeless-centerfire. This is true, regardless of cartridge or caliber. In addition, longer barrels always burn powder more efficiently, as time allows a full burn of the charge before the projectile exits the muzzle.
you can increase it.40 grains and .454 ball.those Remingtons will hold it.it wont hurt them.itl get you a bit over 1100fps.1250 with the remington 36cal.
Thanks Ronald, I'm just not sure I want to push these revolvers quite that hard. For defensive use (as opposed to hunting) I'm not sure it's all that necessary.
Unless one is Wild Bill Hickok who purportedly shot and cleaned his revolvers everyday. Doing that may be impractical especially in suburban or urban settings. Doing some long term storage tests may be helpful if inclined as unloading means generally shooting the BP Guns. I have seen long term storage solutions of these guns with things like wax over the chambers as well as clear nail polish around the chambers and caps. One could probably put wax over the caps too but I haven’t done these things or seen it done on the caps. Storage of loaded BP revolvers would probably necessitate hammer down on an empty chamber in dry conditions. Your thoughts and observations would be appreciated. Thanks.
@@GlockamoleG17 Thanks for your insight. I live in one of the unfree states. Surprisingly they haven’t gotten around to requiring an FFL yet. If the day comes when they begin confiscation etc. the BP May become my go to weapons
The Remington New Model cylinder has a recess between the caps for that purpose. The hammer locks half way between the two. Getting it there when the gun is capped and loaded is a procedure that requires precision and extreme care. If you have one of these practice with the gun unloaded before attempting live.
Pyrodex P is also a little snappier than Goex FFF and it measures the same by volume. I have never tried Triple 7 but I have heard that you have to be a little careful with it due to its power.
True. 3f 777 is pretty dang good for a substitute, but it's got a loading learning curve to get the most out of it. Swiss ffff is close to what we can find regarding Hazard fine pistol cartridge powder. I like both. I prefer 777 just cause it's locally available and I've found a great load for my guns. I've never used goex for anything but noise charges. Never in my bp Arms.
Hello sir. I'm a new viewer to your videos, and I gotta say I thoroughly enjoy your stuff!! Thank you! Do you know of any online retailers, or retailers of any nature, where black powder pistols can be purchased? I've fallen in love with these pistols, but I'm having a hard time finding them. Any info you can provide would be appreciated!! Thank you again!
Thanks George. Right now they all seem to be out of stock. I'm not sure why. If you get on a waiting list, you should be notified when they come in. Good luck.
Have you tried or used the .454 142 grain round balls? I know it's not much difference in diameter or weight, although it could make a noticeable difference in accuracy & also muzzle energy/fp
Hello Funk, are you certain you were firing 30 grains of BP in your 8” NMA? You got an average of 644 fps with 30 grains of BP. I’ve chronographed my own weapons- a steel Pietta Colt Navy in .44 as well as a brasser Navy in .44, and out of both of them (only 7.5” barrels) I’m getting an average of about 710 fps with 30 grains of BP. These open tops usually get significantly lower velocities than the ‘closed’ top strapped guns like the NMA and Ruger Old Army (Paul Harrell got an average of 841 fps out of his Old Army with 30 grains of BP). So am very surprised by your low velocities with your NMA.
@@hrfunk I think it’s very possible you had your measure set for 25 grains or something lower than 30 grains! I just realized you were using .451’s, while I used .454’s in mine, so your FPS numbers should be significantly higher than mine. If you ever shoot your 8” NMA again, please chronograph it again using 30 grains, and let us know the results! The only difference is you used Goex while I use Schuetzen, but the difference shouldn’t be that significant.
777 is much more potent and swiss is a bit more than 777 , the problem I face with getting swiss is having to buy 5lbs at a time because of shipping processes
It never ceases to amaze me as to how people who don’t make videos come up with ways to criticize we who do. You are at liberty to produce your own video and use whatever test protocol(s) you like. Please send me a link to your video.
hr funk,you may know modern guns and law enforcement,but brother you're a greenhorn with muzzleloading.damn.a 451 ball is too small.it allows no pressure to build up.nma needs at least.454 or more.and forget the patch.lube some over the top if you must.but 777 doesn't foul like black powder.and when you test,start at a given number and then increase incrementally.777 really increases with every 5 grains.35 is minimum to get results.40 is better.stuff in 45 and forget the lubes just for fun.youl get damn near 1300 fps.use a conical with 30 or 35 and get 450 lbs of force.38 special?come on bro.you can hit light 357 numbers with those old guns.jeesh....
I certainly make no claims of being an expert in any sense of the word. That said, I tend to be somewhat conservative with my cap&ball revolvers. I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to loading them.
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I'm really enjoying this "accidental" series. I got my first black powder rifle about 20 years ago as a Christmas present from my wife. Since then, the black powder bug has bitten me quite a lot. I now own about the same number of black powder rifles, revolvers and pistols as I do modern guns. I find it to be a very enjoyable hobby. ( One my wife probably regrets getting me into. LOL) My only problem is that I don't have any friends or family that are interested in the history or the shooting of theses firearms. So I have no one to discuss or enjoy a day of shooting these great guns from the past.
Hi Don, I think shooting black powder rifles and handguns is very relaxing. There is simply no way to rush things. I don’t shoot BP a lot, but I always enjoy it when I do.
For discussing the topic, you might want to check out the Muzzleloading forum. There’s a lot of great talk there. Best of kuck!
Great "accidental" series.
Thanks Jim!
While hiking I had to use a 36 cal navy in a "defensive" situation. A large feral dog threatened me and so I can say these revolvers still can be called on to do their duty as it were
I’m glad that old wheelgun still kept you safe!
Interesting series! Can't wait for the next installment. 👍🏻
Thank you!
I'm glad you're using something more substantial than Goex. Goex is a very low power propellant. Swiss black powder and 777 are all I use anymore. I look forward to your conical bullet video. I use 30 grains 777 or Swiss fff behind a Kaido conical bullet in my Pietta Remington new model army revolvers to great effect. Pietta makes great, high strength Remington reproductions which can repeatedly take stout loadings!
I don't use over-powder wads since they often contain a lubricant which leaches (or can be squeezed during loading) into the powder when stored for a long time, which can cause hangfires, misfires, and inconsistent power output. Instead I smear a mixture of Crisco and beeswax over the front face of the loaded bullets when I use lubricant.
Thanks! So far, I’m quite happy with the performance of 777.
This is one of the better series I've seen on this topic, perhaps a test of round balls versus conicals in some sort of ballistics medium using the goex and triple seven to compare penetration between the different powders and projectiles would cover these revolvers effectiveness in a defensive role from every angle. By the way, that's a nice pair of revolvers.
Thank you. I’m thinking about doing some additional testing. These videos seem to be very popular and they are fun to make.
@@hrfunk well it's been a year and I need something lighter to watch then the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Can’t wait for the conical test
I think you're gonna be the first on YT who will make some decent series about using BP guns in self defense. Thank you for that and keep it up!
You're welcome Hubert. Thanks for watching!
@@hrfunk It's a pleasure as always. =) Can't wait for more!
@@hrfunk Next 35 and 40 grain charges of Swiss fffg under a .454 round ball no wad just grease over the loaded chamber mouth. Should be devastating. :D
I have had many years of good results using 28 grains goex ffff and a .457 soft lead round ball no wad and half beef tallow half beeswax to seal the cylinder. I carry an early 1858 clone defensively daily and have had no noticeable power loss or accuracy loss from long term loading. Love your videos. All the best.
Thanks for the comment Harry!
Keep in mind that T7 is unstable powder and it will loose effectiveness over time. (after really long time I've seen similar charges doing 200ish fps instead of 900ish). For self defense use only real black powder and possibly Swiss or Old Eynsford as these are as powerful as T7 but do not degrade unless moisture is present. Do not use .451 round balls because they do not grasp the chamber very well and pressure does not build as well as with .454 balls and even better with conicals. Black powder and propellants generate limited velocities unlike modern smokeless powders so old timers went with mass rather than velocity to achieve greater energy ! Heck, this is why the muskets used .69 balls! In order to get 400+ ft/lbs use of heavy conicals is necessary. I managed to get about 450 ft/lbs with 35 grains of very fine FFFFg Swiss Powder and 200 grainc conical ! Back in the day, during civil war, they used fine HAZARD powder and conicals and these gun easily generated in excess of 300 ft/lbs. If you read accounts from that time, soldiers complained about snappy recoil with .44 and prefered .36 caliber ! Army even reduced their loadings in paper cartridges from 30 to 25 grains ! Fine FFFFg powder under heavy conical is very snappy !
I worry a little about that kind of pressure in revolvers of this type. In a Ruger Old Army, I might push them that hard, but I don't know about your average Pietta NMA.
@@hrfunk how are these energies any different than using a cartridge conversion cylinder using .45 long colt cartridges loaded with smokeless powder
@@hrfunk Mine hasn't blown up but I cannot ensure somebody else's won't. After just only 5 shots, mild coining on the recoil shield could be observed. However, 30 grs of T7 and 200 grain conical is perfectly safe and it should boost your energy to about 325 ft/lbs.
I think if you stay within the realm of black powder cartridge ballistics, they shouldn’t break/wear out too fast. On the other hand, I just don’t know how hard I want to step on the accelerator with these old wheelies.
@@hrfunk next time you order round balls try .454 really! I can assure you that the difference in velocity will be serious ! You will easily get about 50 fps more velocity just by going to .454 balls. Type black powder ballistics in google and enter the poconoshootingrange.com to see how serious and how powerful these guns are ! Best data on these on the internet, ask you me!
Your back powder and naa revolvers videos are my favorite!👊
Thank you! I just had one of these revolvers out again last weekend.
My favorite series! Love the videos brother
Thank you!
Thank you for doing this. I have the RNA in the 5.5" bbl and wanted to see what triple 7 did in it.
I really like my 5.5” RNMA. It’s my most used C&B revolver. Triple 7 works very well in it. Thanks for watching!
HR Much better numbers with 777. But the Goex numbers still seemed low. Maybe some gas leakage in the chamber or barrel with 451 balls. Try some 454 round balls and Goex. The nice thing about BP weapons is the gun itself is your reloading bench. Thanks for the video enjoyed it.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
Yeah, .454 is going to make quite a difference velocity-wise... .457 would be even better.
I agree it would be very interesting to see what the larger balls would do. And a charge of goex up to 40 grains should be perfectly safe. I am guessing that the sweet spot may be around 35gr especially in the Sheriff.
The thing is that so many RUclipsrs test modern 380ACP and up in gel and so on. But those are mostly effective in penetration and/or damage.
But whats really interresting is the loads that is on the border line, like blackpowoder guns, 31, 36 and 44 guns, but also like factory cowboy action loads.
I really would like to see more tests on these old guns!
If I ever start to do gel testing in videos, I will give it a whirl!
@@hrfunk Thanks, it would be awsome!
I've never used black powder, since the early 70's always used Pyrodex till the 80's switched to 777 & never looked back. I've always used .454 balls in all my revolvers, Army San Marcos, Pietta & Uberti, don't know if that would have an effect on velocity or accuracy. I load by weight rather than volume, 777 is easy, .777% of it's volume, I load 23.5gr by weight in my handgun revolvers & 27gr in my Uberti carbine, just love that gun.Keep the vids coming!
Wool do Mark. Thanks for watching!
You are going to find that a heavier conical will burn the powder more efficiently.That’s what I found with my 255 grain flat nose that I currently use in my revolvers. Also You can up the powder charge quite a lot in the Remington.it can definitely handle it. 1000ft/s even with a heavy conical is easily achieved with hotter loads of 777. I’ve fired a few thousand Hot loads with heavy projectiles and there is no visible signs of wear on any of my Remingtons. The colts will eventually batter the wedge, but that is an easy replacement part. Under no circumstances try with a brass framed revolver!
Good video! Looking forward to you next one!
Thank you!
I always enjoy your videos sir.
Very interesting to have the black powder firearms and powders. Thanks for the channel.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
It would be interesting to see the same test with Pyrodex P which I suspect will produce figures somewhere between Goex and 777.
Should look at the Kirst cartridge conversions for the Remington., especially the gated version. Gives you 45 ball or low end 45 Colt ballistics, much improved over blackpowder loads with cap and ball, smokeless , and speed of reloading
Great results with triple seven. The triple seven does compress a lot more than black powder. In my black powder carbine ,as an experiment , I filled the cylinders to the brim with triple seven ,and found that the balls would seat flush. Accuracy went to pot though. And having no way to know the pressure , I decided not to do that again.
Thanks for the info Louis.
Any black powder defense adds the concept of "any gun is better than no gun" to the inventory of an innocent victim's available defensive repertoire.
That’s quite a difference, Chief! Thanks for Sharing! 👍👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
You're welcome Frank!
Hopefully you’ll revisit this with roundball vs conical. Really enjoying these
More potent by far, these were formidable weapons in their day from what I have read. The soft lead round ball would likely cause a bad wound and curious to see how the conical performs in your future test, would guess it due to weight and design would penetrate deeper.
That’s my hypothesis as well.
I was wondering about that 777 stuff, so this was right on time.
Good!
Happy accidents are always the best.
Used the discount last night when I ordered some spare mags for my 783 and a set of scope rings for the AR. Here's hoping they send you some good stuff to test.
Thanks Lonnie!
Outstanding Howard
I love these videos! Subscribed
Thanks for the sub and welcome aboard!
THANKS 4 THE INFO. I WAS WONDERING IF A JACKETED BULLIT COULD BE USED IN A BLACK POWDER PISTOL ?
Load compression has a lot to do with shot to shot consistency as well as velocity. If you played with a Black powder cartridge rifle you can really learn the ins and outs of how to get the most out of a black powder cartridge. I think that if you were to make paper cartridges and charge them by using a drop tube, you would possibly get Goex to work similarly to 777. When loading 777 since it is more powerful, you would have to see if you can swap volume for volume. Some bp substitutes you can some you are suppose to download as they actually do produce more pressure. Not sure about 777 I haven’t played with it. I might add also, with conical bullets you will get more energy from either, as you call load bullets that weigh quite a bit more than 140 something grain round balls. Eras Gone makes some authentic molds for those pistols. Great video!!
That’s my understanding too. I tried to be very consistent when compressing these loads, but I don’t have any sort of gauge to measure the amount of force I’m using.
Triple 777 Seems To pack a Punch 😀
Yes it does!
@@hrfunk Didn't I say that last crappy results were due to - crappy - goex powder? It's perfectly possible to achieve over 400 ft\lbs with these guns and proper podwder/projectile selection !
Triple 7 definitely has more juice behind it. Just wish pistol granulation was more readily available here
@@GlockamoleG17 I managed to get about 1000 fps with 35 grains of fine FFFFg Swiss powder and 200 grain lee conical bullet out of my standard pietta NMA revolver. This translates to 580 Joules = 420 ft/lbs. Mike Believeu got 470 ft/lbs with 30 grains of T7 and 225 conical ! Doesn't matter that he used ROA because I can pack just as much in my 1858 ! My 1858 was just fine after testing apart from minor coining on the recoil shield!
@@GlockamoleG17 I'm using hot load like @
Mateusz Fakeman never had issue with 1858 5.5 pietta.
Excellent video thank you sir. Definitely looking forward to the results for .454 round ball and 30gr 777 and conical with 30gr 777. Great content love the channel.
Thank you!
*Mr. Funk, If you ever revisit this... consider FFF SWISS brand at 35 grains {no wad} .457" round ball and apply unsalted Crisco or 'tallow and bee's wax' or other bullet lube/non-petroleum unsalted grease over the top of the ball in such a way as to fill up the chamber to level full with chamber mouth. Scrape away excess with plastic or wooden card. This should be more like the original loading and might gain you some speed. Conical can be interesting, as well... and without the wad...under a conical you might get about 30 grains in there. Conical might provide surprising speed with approximately the punch of a short barrel { officer's model } 45 ACP. I have seen FFFFg { 4 F } used in revolvers and do not recommend it.*
Thanks. If I try this again, I’ll keep your suggestions in mind.
Good stuff! I'm looking forward to the conical bullet test.
Thanks Pail!
Black powder cleanup with soap and warm water is not a difficult process. There is a caveat here, though. When black powder was getting started, information was rather slim. Many new shooters were trying the lubes they were familiar with - i.e. petroleum based lubes. Petroleum products, after being subjected to firing pressures and temps, leave behind a tar like residue. VERY difficult to clean. But natural lubes are an easy cleanup with soap and water.
Yep, that’s always been my understanding too. Thanks for the comment Kirk!
Thanks for making this video
You’re welcome!
Great video. Very informative. Thanks 👍
Thank you!
I've seen in other black powder firearms better performance with projectiles that we would consider today to be heavy for caliber. I have to wonder for defensive purposes if a simple swaged .451 cylinder the same length as the conical ball might produce a better result at normal defensive distances?
Interesting question. I’ve never seen or heard of such a projectile.
www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=68_82
These are apparently cast at 452, but if 454 balls work these should be a reasonably good fit. I don't know how long a bullet you could get to seat flush with your cylinder front, and I am not sure that it would be a good idea to use a hollow base wad cutter without reversing the projectile.
@@donhumberson1279 Hollow base down may work well act like a minie ball. I do know in the Navy Conversion cylinders the normal cartridge is a 38 long Colt but 38 special hollow based wadcutters are also recommended. And will fit. Hollow base will grab the rifling better.
@@donhumberson1279 I have fired soft lead .452 cartridge bullets out of my revolvers. They worked but didn’t try enough to see if they were accurate but they not being heeled were somewhat a chore to load.
It wouldn't be too hard to make a quick and dirty hammer swage mold for short. Wad cutters. I bet they would have rather nice terminal ballistics.
For the longer shoots try setting with your arms braced on your knees.
Another great video, thanks!
You’re welcome Michael. I’m glad you liked it!
The 777 in my opinion is a great powder just don’t load the Italy weapons too hot it could be deadly for the shooter , thanks for the video , I used to do cowboy action and there weren’t many of the Italy weapons used
No, I’m not planning to load them too hot. I’m concerned about them self-destructing in my hand!
Pietta's newer guns are strong enough now, but I'm not sure it's all that necessary to load "hot" with 777. On average it generates as much or more pressure per volume load as Swiss ffff, but with a significantly slower burn. I don't have a .44 right now, but my safe max load in my 2019 7½" .36 M1851 is 27 grains 3fg 777. (22 to 25 is my rabbit load and 17ish is my "plinking with the kids" load.) There is only a little more down range power with that max load, but with a notable degradation in accuracy. I think there's just not enough time for the majority of the substitute powder to burn above 23 grains in that gun and it does spooky sh_t to that little .375 round ball. So no advantage to a "hot" load. In my 1973 Pietta 1851 I would not load more than 18 grains 777. The metallurgy just isn't the quality of the newer gun.
Been looking at 777 for cartridge guns. 777 produces more pressure than black. I don't think I would use it in brass frames revolvers.
Thanks for the video.
black powder: "shooting done fun"
Most of the black powder substitutes seem to have higher pressure than black powder. Rule of thumb is reduce by about 15 percent for substitutes when used over black powder. I prefer to load real black powder in 38 special and 45 Long Colt cases for my revolvers. I don't know how the substitutes will affect long term pressures on these guns.
I believe Pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute (not by weight).
I know that this video is two years old. But I would like to see something like this with the eight inch barrel and a Walker revolver.
I don’t own a Walker, but I do own a Pietta Remington NMA with an 8” barrel so that might work.
Failure of powder due to moisture and Corrosion? Triple seven being a non-sulfur powder should be hands down the better choice.
I think “better” is a point of view. If someone is trying to replicate the experience of shooting tin the mid-19th century, then Triple 7 is not an option. In the other hand, if one is trying to maximize the performance of modern cap&ball arms, then 777 might just be the way to go.
Well done sir!
Thank you!
Awesome comparison. May I ask what size cap you used with the t7
I believe these were CCI #11.
It would also be worth trying 40gr of goex with both .451 and .454 balls.
That's on my "to do" list.
@@hrfunk With the same 30 grain charge of 777 and a .454 ball you're definitely gonna get well over 1,000 fps (8" barrel). I know that may seem strange, but it's already been tested and proven. It would be interesting to see a comparison between a .454 and a .457 round ball. Btw. I love your cap and ball films!
Higher velocity always equates to longer range and flatter trajectory. This is true whether you're using black powder or smokeless-centerfire. This is true, regardless of cartridge or caliber. In addition, longer barrels always burn powder more efficiently, as time allows a full burn of the charge before the projectile exits the muzzle.
you can increase it.40 grains and .454 ball.those Remingtons will hold it.it wont hurt them.itl get you a bit over 1100fps.1250 with the remington 36cal.
Thanks Ronald, I'm just not sure I want to push these revolvers quite that hard. For defensive use (as opposed to hunting) I'm not sure it's all that necessary.
Unless one is Wild Bill Hickok who purportedly shot and cleaned his revolvers everyday. Doing that may be impractical especially in suburban or urban settings. Doing some long term storage tests may be helpful if inclined as unloading means generally shooting the BP Guns. I have seen long term storage solutions of these guns with things like wax over the chambers as well as clear nail polish around the chambers and caps. One could probably put wax over the caps too but I haven’t done these things or seen it done on the caps. Storage of loaded BP revolvers would probably necessitate hammer down on an empty chamber in dry conditions. Your thoughts and observations would be appreciated. Thanks.
@@GlockamoleG17 Thanks for your insight. I live in one of the unfree states. Surprisingly they haven’t gotten around to requiring an FFL yet. If the day comes when they begin confiscation etc. the BP May become my go to weapons
That is one of the reasons I started making these videos. Thanks for watching!
The Remington New Model cylinder has a recess between the caps for that purpose. The hammer locks half way between the two. Getting it there when the gun is capped and loaded is a procedure that requires precision and extreme care. If you have one of these practice with the gun unloaded before attempting live.
Pyrodex P is also a little snappier than Goex FFF and it measures the same by volume. I have never tried Triple 7 but I have heard that you have to be a little careful with it due to its power.
I can see why. Hodgdon suggests you reduce you load volume by 15% with Triple 7.
Very interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Jerry!
Is the 8 inch new model Army more accurate than the 5 inch?
They are pretty close. If anything, I think the 5" might be a little more accurate.
I was under the impression modern made black powder like Goex isn't as hot as the stuff made during the 1800s
True. 3f 777 is pretty dang good for a substitute, but it's got a loading learning curve to get the most out of it. Swiss ffff is close to what we can find regarding Hazard fine pistol cartridge powder. I like both. I prefer 777 just cause it's locally available and I've found a great load for my guns. I've never used goex for anything but noise charges. Never in my bp Arms.
I was wandering if You did that shooting with the conical bullets
Not yet, but I haven’t forgotten about it.
@@hrfunk I know You are very busy sir
What grain charge were you using again?
30
I use 25 grains of 3F Goex with .454 balls in my Uberti or Pietta revolvers.
I usually prefer 30 grains, although I doubt there is a great deal of difference.
Hello sir.
I'm a new viewer to your videos, and I gotta say I thoroughly enjoy your stuff!!
Thank you!
Do you know of any online retailers, or retailers of any nature, where black powder pistols can be purchased?
I've fallen in love with these pistols, but I'm having a hard time finding them.
Any info you can provide would be appreciated!!
Thank you again!
Thanks George. Right now they all seem to be out of stock. I'm not sure why. If you get on a waiting list, you should be notified when they come in. Good luck.
Try Dixie Gun Works they have some good Ubertis
Cabela's carries pietta and can be mailed directly in the United States
Great video as usual. Just wondering, in a non-battlefield scenario, how does one square "defensive applications" with a 100 yard distance to target?
In my last C&B revolver video I discussed that. If you have a chance, take a look at that one.
Hint: Active shooter.
Have you tried or used the .454 142 grain round balls? I know it's not much difference in diameter or weight, although it could make a noticeable difference in accuracy & also muzzle energy/fp
Not yet. That's coming!
Hello Funk, are you certain you were firing 30 grains of BP in your 8” NMA? You got an average of 644 fps with 30 grains of BP. I’ve chronographed my own weapons- a steel Pietta Colt Navy in .44 as well as a brasser Navy in .44, and out of both of them (only 7.5” barrels) I’m getting an average of about 710 fps with 30 grains of BP. These open tops usually get significantly lower velocities than the ‘closed’ top strapped guns like the NMA and Ruger Old Army (Paul Harrell got an average of 841 fps out of his Old Army with 30 grains of BP). So am very surprised by your low velocities with your NMA.
I did not weigh the powder, but that is what I had my measure set for. I could certainly have made a mistake.
@@hrfunk I think it’s very possible you had your measure set for 25 grains or something lower than 30 grains! I just realized you were using .451’s, while I used .454’s in mine, so your FPS numbers should be significantly higher than mine. If you ever shoot your 8” NMA again, please chronograph it again using 30 grains, and let us know the results! The only difference is you used Goex while I use Schuetzen, but the difference shouldn’t be that significant.
Way Cool 😎👍💯🇺🇸
Thank you!
Here is another Link for a lot of info
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xh1uW
Try private exposure and see if it has any difference in the triple 7
I’ve never heard of that. Can you tell me something about it?
@@hrfunk Paradise is a synthetic black powder that's very commonly used in Michigan
Thanks! I’ll look into it.
real black powder is the only way to go...
How much do these guns cost?
They are relatively inexpensive. Most are about half the price of a modern revolver.
@@hrfunk thanks for the response my friend, i enjoy your videos and your warm demeanor. Keep it up!
@@KingRemy003 Will do. Thanks for watching!
777 is much more potent and swiss is a bit more than 777 , the problem I face with getting swiss is having to buy 5lbs at a time because of shipping processes
Where do you order the Swiss?
@@hrfunk from buffaloarms.com
Thanks!
A .454 round ball with 30g of 777 will shoot 1,100 fps in a 5 1/2 " 44 pietta..... patch balls lose compression
Sooner or later I’ll give this test another try.
By using hold over you have voided the validity of the test. You should have aimed at the same spot each time.
It never ceases to amaze me as to how people who don’t make videos come up with ways to criticize we who do. You are at liberty to produce your own video and use whatever test protocol(s) you like. Please send me a link to your video.
hr funk,you may know modern guns and law enforcement,but brother you're a greenhorn with muzzleloading.damn.a 451 ball is too small.it allows no pressure to build up.nma needs at least.454 or more.and forget the patch.lube some over the top if you must.but 777 doesn't foul like black powder.and when you test,start at a given number and then increase incrementally.777 really increases with every 5 grains.35 is minimum to get results.40 is better.stuff in 45 and forget the lubes just for fun.youl get damn near 1300 fps.use a conical with 30 or 35 and get 450 lbs of force.38 special?come on bro.you can hit light 357 numbers with those old guns.jeesh....
I certainly make no claims of being an expert in any sense of the word. That said, I tend to be somewhat conservative with my cap&ball revolvers. I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to loading them.