Unleashing Vaapad: Can Any Sith Lord Outmatch Mace Windu in a Lightsaber Duel?
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- We return to a Galaxy far far away to explain in this Star Wars Theory which 3 Sith Lords stood the best chance of defeating Mace Windus lightsaber form Vaapad.
Contents:
00:00 Intro
01:40 Sith Lord 1
03:27 Sith Lord 2
06:37 Sith Lord 3
08:32 Honourable Mention
Review Channel - / @thefandome
And for more of Liams work check out his fantastic Audio Book the Shifterverse here - / @shifterverse 
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Good stuff! Dooku is pretty much the perfect counter for Vaapad... very much in control of his emotions and actions, still ultimately guided to a large degree by his jedi training, while also being an extremely capable duelist capable of holding his own against even Yoda. If I recall, the old legends material said Dooku beat Mace in their sparring at the Jedi Temple, before he turned Sith (with only Yoda being his superior), so I presume he'd still have it in him if that holds true with canon.
dooku uses the darkside, he uses it once, mace gets an amp. and they were already near equal. mace smokes him
As regards the exact efficacy of Vapaad-it seems to work like the Pokémon move Counter, which is to say it merely reflects the energy the opponent has tried to inflict upon the user. Mace can only fling back damage in proportion to what a dark side user is trying to do unto him.
Also enjoy the fine distinction between “this guy can neutralize Vapaad” and “this guy will best Mace.” As you guys point out, only Dooku has the actual track record to not only ignore Vapaad but also win the lightsaber duel outright. Plageuis and Zannah and whoever else would have to change the nature of the engagement to a more Force attack oriented approach.
Definitely Warlord, thanks for stopping in as always! We think Plagueis could do something crafty, but unless Zannahs got a big old darkside lake next to her, we think the best she'll do is survive the encounter! Liam
If were considering Zannah, we have to talk about her student Darth Cognus. She assasinated a jedi even before she became an official Sith and then obviously she defeated Zannah somehow.
Something to make clear is that Mace wasn't only a good duelist because of Vaapad remember it came from Juyo so he'd still be one hell of a fighter against someone not affected by Vaapad
Thats absolutely true, a lot of people think Vapaad is a crutch for him when in reality its more of a flex because he got bored with the classic forms. Mace is a beast with or without Vapaad! Thanks for watching!
I always thought that a true sith lord could defeat windu since he thrives on anger, fear and other negative feelings. When the vaapad returns those feelings, the Sith Lord will become stronger. The vaapad works for people like dark jedi or inquisitors who are fond of the dark side
Issue is Vapaad basically channels that darkside power back against the Sith, so they are kind of on the receiving end of their own power not getting boosted by it. Vapaad is the tool of someone who follows the light, a darksider cannot use it because of its mechanics! Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts! Liam
A true with Lord would actually be the most vulnerable to Vaapad as seen by Sidious. He was far more powerful than Windu but his style was specifically designed to counter opponents who wield the dark side. The Sith which stand the greatest chance are those who use the dark side unconventionally in manner which doesn’t feed the Vapaad loop.
The fandom really likes to overestimate Vaapad.
Yes, it is a huge advantage to be able to draw on your opponent's aggression and turn it against them. But it is in no way foolproof, nor infinite in its potential. Any Sith Lord who's simply significantly stronger, faster, more skilled or more powerful than Windu by a wide enough margin will still be able to overpower him. There are also numerous Sith Lords who do not give in to anger or let the Dark Side control their actions, meaning Vaapad would be of little advantage against them.
There are definitely more than 3 Sith Lords that can defeat Mace Windu and his Vaapad. I can name dozens just off the top of my head.
Mace stood against the most powerful sith ever to live and got the loop working, there aren't many Sith who are going to be able to straight up overpower him if Sidious can't. We found it hard justifying and reasoning these 3 😂 the whole point of the vid is to hear others suggestions so if you can name some Sith not on our list, go for it thats what we want! I'm a reasonably well read EU fan and most of the top tier Sith I can think of tap the Dark side to a far too big degree to be able to nullify Vapaad. Thanks for watching! Liam
vaapa hasnt been overestmated. its darkside users ultimate weakness. mace has skills nearly on par with yoda. thats without the darkside amp. mace can use his own darkside to create the loop. with sidious it was a perfect, for the first time. mace used vaapa on the one who he created it with.
Darth malgus would give mace a run for his money the man is fueled by rage and serene fury but his pure devotion to strength in the dark side could possibly give him an amp to outmuscle mace from his loop considering malgus also has sjatterpoint so can sense the beginning sequence of the loop and simply rally his supernatural strengths to disengage and start the duel over and over until windu is zallow
you think a dude who starts with dark side powers is gonna over power mace whose second to yoda in force powers and force augmentation, mace doesnt have turn off his power to be strong, he starts that way, and the dark side amp malgus starts with will be pushed back at him, he turns it off, he will be weaker than mace and get washed. he uses darkside amp, he gets washed harder.@@Angelo-nd4lg
I mean defeated Sidious the strongest Sith Vaapad is very effective
I agree with Dooku 100% the only possible problem is Dookus hatred for Mace but because Dooku knows of Vaapad I think he could keep it under control.Plagueis probably wouldn’t fall victim to Vaapad the only thing that could be a hindrance is that I think he hated the Jedi immensely and thought they shouldn’t have the force so I don’t know if he would be able to keep his cool cause he doesn’t fight any Jedi in the book.Plagueis couldn’t bear Mace in a duel I believe just based off of what we know he’s definitely among the better duelists in Star Wars but he isn’t on par with Mace.Vader could possibly overcome Vaapad if it was a Jedi he didn’t know but Mace he hated with all his heart so the fight wouldn’t go well for him.
Thats a fantastic point regarding Vader and now you mention it you make a good point, he's not exactly fond of Mace 😂 we're not 100 percent on plaugis etheir, we just think he can nullify that loop of Maces! Liam
@@shifterverse The beef between the 2 of them is considerable so Vader might go a bit nuts.I agree with you on Plagueis that he could nullify the loop most likely but it’s difficult to judge his power since there’s limited material on him and it’s legends.
I have always kinda felt a fight between Vader and Mace almost needs to happen to get the Vader we see in the OT. I have always thought Vader right after ep 3 would be a blind rage machine and would need to learn patience that he never has as Jedi but kinda dose have later as a Sith.
The thing is Mace has TWO not so secret weapons. One is indeed Vaapad but the other is arguably the more dangerous of the two and that is Shatterpoint. That’s always his winning move. Vaapad let him match Sidious speed and he already had the skill to go blow for blow with the Sith Lord on pure instinct but Shatterpoint
is what showed him where to aim it. Each and every time he goes against an opponent he can’t cut down immediately he used shatterpoint and wins through tactical skill and exploitation of an and every weakness.
Again Windu isn’t just deadly for his raw skills with a lightsaber or power in the force but where and how shatterpoint allows him to point them.
Plus the novels shatterpoint (in his fight against his former padawan who was also a master of Vaapad, and Kar Vastor) and ROTS (When Anakin in watching Mace fight Palpatine) hints that he always restrains himself to a degree and only really cut loose against palpatine. But this is speculation on my part. Just something to think about.
I think Dooku can MATCH him but to beat him without drawing on the darkside not possible. His age would eventually slow him down juuuust enough that Windu through use of shatterpoint see his opportunity and take it. Also if Dooku and Windu are evenly match in power in the force and Windu is able to get even a little from Dooku guess who becomes the underdog? It wouldn’t take much to tip that scale.
Another thing to consider is that Mace is no stranger to throwing a force enhanced punch or kick.
Dooku is not in his physical prime. Mace was only 53 when he died and was still described as well muscled and depicted as being extremely athletic. Dooku’s not taking too many of those hits if they connect. It might be that deciding factor. Just like it was between Qui-Gon and Darth Maul in TPM. The duel would go on for a long time and would be freaking awesome to watch but eventually even Dooku with his conservative style would tire ever so slightly and Windu using shatterpoint would take advantage with a well placed physical blow or saber strike and Dooku would be disarmed struck down outright.
@TheFandomeClips I know I am late commenting strangely never got the notification. That being said, yes I was referring to Dooku in my comment on the other video. His use of quey'tek would aid him in fighting Mace greatly. His blade work is also what puts him up there. Makashi is a very precise fencing style so that could aid him against Mace. Your other picks really don't stand a chance. Plagius while a good pick dies after a hard fought fight. Zanna just dies fast. Her sorcery could take Mace out in an ambush but even her fight against Bane took trickery. In actual blade work she dies too quick. Bane himself goes down pretty easy in my opinion. As for Vader well in character no way he wins. His anger specifically against Mace will cost him. Out of character if Mace is a stranger then it is possible. Though I think ultimately he still will lose one of his main advantages against most Jedi which is the fear aspect. There are others from legend cannon that stand a far better chance against Mace than these. However Dooku does stand probably the best chance.
Im certainly intrigued to hear who else you think stands a better chance :D - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips One of my main choices would be Darth Krayt. This man was so powerful he made Grand Master Luke Skywalker think twice at points. This is Legends Luke by the way and we all know how powerful legends Luke was. He knew Niman which he used to go into Jar'Kai. He knew Tara kasi a form which Baltar Swan would use to defeat Vader in a comic. He helped Luke beat Aboleth which if people know who Aboleth is that's impressive. His Force Drain was to the point he could drain Aboleth's force. He had abilities like Shatter point, Tutaminis, his use of Lightning was insane, The Force itself would even talk to him, and one of the far scariest abilities he had was Dark Transfer which he could use to cheat death. Krayt is just a beast. Mace would have his hands full especially since Force Drain would be hard to counter. Also Krayt would have knowledge of Vaapad because he was in The Jedi order with Mace. It's hard to say who would win in a fight. Mace definitely stands a chance but Krayt definitely would too. Darth Cadeus is another interesting choice. His saber skills were good enough to keep up with Luke and Kyle Katarn. He fights dirty at times like in his fight with Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn. I don't think he would win a straight up fight but I think if he fight underhanded he could beat Mace. Nihilus is another one who stands a excellent chance. His Force Hunger would be hard for Mace to deal with. Especially without a wound in the force like Meetra Surik had. There are others that I think could too. However I have to look some things up.
@@TheFandomeClipsTulik Hord
The only criticism on this thought is Mace trained against many who were level headed in the Jedi order& he was possibly one of the most powerful in the Jedi too who don't fight with anger & hate& dark side so there is nothing there for Mace to reflect & yet he defeated most if not all. So he's definitely not a 1 trick pony. Also he took tons of battle droids who are void of emotion & dark side so Mace's ability to fight doesnt scale with opponent's dark side only. His base ability is still pretty strong. He does generate dark side himself just he controls it & keeps it at bay with Vapaad. But i agree calm level headed individuals are probably his weakness they just need skill behind that disposition. Dooku may have been.
Absolutely! Even if you get past his two tricks your still dealing with one of the Jedi orders most powerful! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips fo sho but overall enjoyed video & interesting analysis. With a watch
Dooku 50/50 purely because of his age. Zannah and Plaguis aren't likely because of their skill, even without Vaapad Windu is more than competent with a lightsaber. post armor Vader is actually very strong case, since his fighting tactics is fight calmly while taunting and quietly influencing enemies into the dark side and only unleashing his dark side fury when he sees Windu is broken and fully committed to fight "dark" himself, then we'll have a darkside vs darkside fight, and Vader wins with pure experience.
in terms of others: Darth Traya(Kreia) can beat Mace, her philosophy is....something else, and her three saber fighting style is also unorthodox enough, the only knock again her is, again, her age and weak physicality. Darth Nihilus, he has no anger, only hunger, Mace can't turn that, and he eat planets. Darth Caedus(Jacen Solo) have the same Shatter point ability, knows Vaapad, and somewhat keep his pure anger in check, and he is probably more powerful than even Palps. Lana Beniko, keeps a level head, very strategic mind, the knock against her is she might simply not be powerful enough, Orbalisk Bane beats Mace simply because he can't be killed with a lightsaber, Darth Sion for simply can't be killed.
If we are looking at all sith lords, Darth Zannah might stand a chance. Her style of fighting isn't in pure anger and aggression but calm, smooth motions with her double bladed lightsaber to create what she call an impenetrable defense. Once her opponent tired themselves out, Zannah would move in the kill. In this case, it comes down to who has the most energy
Sounds like it’s straight out of Kenobis playbook!
If Mace's ways make him basically impervious just to Sith power and attacks, I assume he's fair game for Jedi techniques? 🤔
Hey Jeremy thanks for stopping by! Your point is very valid, a jedi has a better chance of beating Mace than most sith! Although the Jedi isn't out of the woods, they've still got a powerhouse duelist and a powerful force user to get through 😂 thanks for checking in as always bud! Liam
@@shifterverse No prob 😊
Somewhat Grevious. I know in the animated series it was Windu who force crushed his lung, but hear me out. Grevious Is a cyborg and does not get tired, nor does he really care about most damage or force ability ( minus force crush). He has extreme offensive capability, and the reason kenobi won was his extreme defense allowed him to find opportunities. Vapaad doesn't work because Grevious isn't force sensitive and cannot feed said loop, but he DOES possess the cybernetics to keep pace and physically overwhelm a human opponent. He also has been shown to be able to learn and mimic styles and would learn and counter Vapaad pretty quickly. Mace is custom made to fight sith using anger, Grevious seems to be the perfect counter assuming he can avoid another force crush and not be arrogantly condescending for 1 minute.
@@Gegengrupenfuhrur thats a fantastic poit regarding GGs ability to mimic forms, I've always seen Mace as someone who enjoys a good fight so when he resorts immediately to a fight ending attack he's probably aware on some level that GG might get the better of him in a duel. Then you also have to consider he was available when the time came to hunt GG down and yet Kenobi is still the one chosen.
I guess that makes Prime Revan another candidate
I wonder though if the Tyrells could've won against Mace Windu in the game of thrones given his lightsaber technique?
I agree with all your choices except Vader being an honorable mention. Vader HATES the Jedi and the Vader Comics paint the picture of him constantly channeling the dark side (even choosing to remain in his current suit instead of upgrading cuz the negative effects of his suit fuel his anger and thus his darkside prowess.
So he would be pretty much a slave to Vapaad, especially since there is no indication he or Anakin ever learned about Vapaad, let alone fought against it directly.
And in terms of skill with a lightsaber, he's very formidable, but his lack of mobility would render his skill moot against Mace, who'd be far more acrabatic. But take away that factor and Mace would most likely still win in skill alone. Vader's good, but Mace would play on his anger masterfully, and Vader would have plenty of it upon seeing Windu, the man who denied him the rank of mastery and is most likely holding a lot of blame in Vader's mind for the death of Padme and Vader's current life path.
This is all to say, Vader would get bullied by Mace. XD He may put up a fight, but ultimately he'd lose.
So tldr for Vader-Vader with his Original Trilogy mentality would be able to deal with Vaapad because he's finally chilled out from his Anakin days combatively, wheras if he's in his Kenobi mindset, then he's going to be feeding Mace the entire time while hampering his overall tactical effectiveness
Darth Zannah was just another Obi-Wan Kenobi (defensive style) when it came to lightsaber dueling.
Darth Bane was like Mace Windu in the fact that they were both warriors. Usually warriors in the Star Wars Universe sacrafice mental fortitude for combat prowess. That being said, i believe Darth Zannah would have done to Mace what she did to Bane with her Sorcery. The difference is Bane knew what Zannah's strengths were and did his best to build up his mental barriers. Mace would be caught completely off guard.
I‘d see Post orbalisk Bane defeat Mace tbh.
Its a dicey one thats for sure pal, post Orbalisk Bane was certainly a lot more cerebral than his younger self and his bug infested self. I still think he leveraged his fury just enough to fuel Maces fire though, but thats just my opinion. Thanks for watching!
Yea I think mace uses the power that the dark sider is putting out he can use their power against them
he generates the dark side, his race is attuned to the dark side. unless that got reconned too.
I remember in shatterpoint, his race was mentioned to be attuned to the force. I can't remember where it specified dark side. But your probably right, they will have scrapped it all after the takeover.
@@TheFandomeClips oh no, they took the back stories out too. my friend was telling me the previous run comics arent disney canon anymore either. where obiwan was the purest jedi bc right after defeating anakin he went on to train with yoda to become a force ghost and started protecting luke never losing hope and cutting himself off from the force. he just kept growing. and then disney messed up his back story before a new hope where he saves leia and had to rely on hope to reconnect with the force.
Darth Sion would just keep getting up until Mace Windu would be too exhausted to continue the fight.
Mace is secretly Vador for the Alliance. He definitely was tapping into the darkside. Which is not a crime
Your channel does Game of Thrones and Star Wars. You're going to make me subscribe LOL😂
And it’s taken you this long. Shame on you! 😂 - Thom
vitate from knights of the old republic, just because eh is so strong, lord scourge, revan, darth vectivus who was actually so good when a dark side nexus was discovered at the bottom of one of his mines he ordered it evacuated in order to save his employees, and starkiller (at the end of the force unleashed one) since he can yuse the light and the dark side and he actually beat palpatine while he may not be able to fight without rage to the extent dooku was he did use the light side
I think Vitiate would fall into the same pitfalls as Sidious, that guys was a black hole of the darkside. The other choices though sound pretty bang on! Thanks for watching Mike! Liam
What about darth nihilus? As strong as vapaad is I dont think its a good defense against nihilius' absorb nonsense.
Revan is also a potential pick since he's very proficient in both the light and the dark side of the force and quite knowledgeable in both, so theres a good chance he'll figure out what vapaad is doing and just stop the loop by switching to more light side techniques.
good shouts there... i'll have to pass that question onto Liam! :p - Thom
I still think Mace would shred Dooku! Dooku always used the Sith Lightning to overtake strong attackers like Anakin and Savage. I think he'd slip and try to employ it on Mace, and that would begin the downfall of Dooku in the fight.
Fr and if Djem so could overwhelm Dooku then Juyo/Vaapad surely can do it as well.
I don't know if this one is against the rules, but "Lana Beniko"
I'm going to say Vader at his full strength could beat Mace in a 1 vs 1. This is Vader several years after his transformation with a full and complete understanding of the dark side.
Revan might stand a chance He went from dark back to the light side.
dammit this whole time i was thinking Vader and they used him as a Honourable mention
and im shit at remebering people names so the ppl im thinking of now i dont remeber there names
that and i wasnt a 100% big starwars fan not as much as my friends sooo
There’s always a bigger fan 😂😂
@@TheFandomeClips bro its not the size th at matters its how you use your fandom knowledge that matters most.
@@THAC0MANIC size matters not.... but i was making a reference to " theres always a bigger fish" :p
@@TheFandomeClips but the size of the fish dosnt matter you need to get over that friend have some confidence in yourself! once you accept yourself for who you are you can be happy! after all some REALY Rasty fish can be small as heck.
@@THAC0MANIC Erh... I think you're missing the point :D lol
Revan would destroy him.
Tulak hord
Vapaad is one of those awfully written parts about Star Wars, the whole thing makes absolutely no sense and makes Windu invincible against Sith.
I don't know, I think it was one of the better ways to have Windu defeat Sidious without trying to infer Windu is more powerful. SLJ was absolutely adamant and insisted that his character not go out like a punk and he wanted his character to initially beat the Emperor, which George agreed to back in TPM, which does add to the tragic weight of order 66, because the Jedi had a chance to stop it and failed.
@@TheFandomeClips Have you seen Weeaboo Warrior's video titled "Palpatine threw the fight against Mace Windu!"? It showcases pretty clearly that Sidious indeed intented for it to happen that way.
Meh, it all comes down to how vapaad really works like pointed out in the Zannath part. And we do not know... so it can be anything from invincible to easily countered. 🥱