The TRUTH About DOLBY ATMOS | Is It Worth Investing?
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- Опубликовано: 7 дек 2021
- We've been researching whether or not we should move into Dolby Atmos over the past few months. Find out the conclusions we've come to in this video!
Check out the full video - Andrew Talks To Awesome People | Dolby Atmos Panel - from PureMix here:
• Dolby Atmos Discussion...
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I just switched from 8 track to cassette and now to Atmos? Love your channel!
I watched the panel myself as well and yes, it was interesting from start to end. The pros are clearly the entry level and scalability. I'm not the biggest fan of spatial audio, when it comes to music alone. And as the panel also made clear, let's be honest, most people will be listening to Atmos only in cinemas and binaural downfolded versions at home. I still see young people at public transports standing around some mobile phone, listening to a song together.
If Cubase is going to be able to produce adm files, I will try some binaural headphone mixes, knowing that - and this is the biggest con for me - I'm listening to an interpretation of an Atmos mix, that'll change, without me doing anything, as soon as the system is updated. So even knowing, that 99% or so, of all my listeners will using headphones as well, I'm not able to estimate, how it will translate to other systems and over time.
I'm a geek, so if you find a supplier, which will set up a room with you together, I'll watch and learn, but not try to find a cheap route to go there as well.
The thing with that head between our ears, is a problem we won't overcome too soon, even though many make no use of it anymore. There will be a point, when we won't be able to distinguish a shitload of speakers from a pair of headphones anymore, since - let's face it- we will still have only two ears and our brain is just trained to interpretate certain shapes of frequencies as directional informations. By that time, there will be affordable multidriver headphones, which will even strongen that image. Until then, stereo will be fine.
If you're into theatrical stuff, movie scores and maybe blockbuster gaming, that's something different. Even here in a not too large city in Germany, we have Atmos ready cinemas.
Thanks for your 2 cents and sorry for the ridiculous long comment.
A long, but awesome comment! Thanks for your contribution, Peter!
Now, Cubase has Dolby Atmos support and I will try it myself, but I have to agree. Unless (even if?) the systems will get cheap and very popular for Doloby Atmos, stereo mixes aren't going anywhere.
I don't think Atmos for music will catch on. In movies it makes sense, but come on. People are barely spending 50 bucks for their speakers. How can you expect that everybody will go in and get the gear to experience the real deal.
Great video! I appreciate the time taken and detail to the business side of this Atmos business.
I don't want to be a ninny but I believe the number scheme for surround sound has the subwoofer count in the middle and height at the end like: 7.1.4
I love this channel as everything is always well researched. Lots of great info even if it sometimes has absolutely no bearing on my hobbyist music production.
Thank you so much!
Nice video ! recently been looking into this.
Great Video guys!
I really do think that we'll see Atmos or something similar take off in the future - once our headphone tech catches up! I wouldn't be surprised if we started moving towards more complex electrostatic or planar magnetic headphones soon, perhaps with separate or segmented membranes to deliver a true surround-sound effect. Would need heaps of power to run though...
I can hear Dolby Atmos songs from Apple Music on a 5.1 setup with Mac mini m1 and RME interfaces. Don't need HDMI receiver. And if I connect an extra ADAT or MADI 8 channel converter, I could hear 7.1. 4
That's interesting... So is the M1 decoding the Atmos metadata?
@@PresentDayProduction You have to do the right setting in Audio Midi Konfiguration App. and in Music App Preferences to Atmos "always on", not "automatic"
Great video guys. Combining info from this and the last video regarding global monitor control, could the Ground Control Room work? Also again would the Audient ID scroll wheel might be an ideal hardware "big knob" controller, obviously not for the I/O itself, unless you use the ID44's ADAT out (we know Mark is a huge fan of ADAT)?
Brilliant video guys.
It's not going to be a way to resell back catalogue in the traditional way of thinking of this with physical products people own. But that's because that's not how music is sold and consumed or 'owned' now, sadly.
However if you think it about more laterally Atmos means that it will become the critical differentiation point for content providers. If the public demand for Atmos is significant then all the major streaming services will have no choice but to adopt it. Thus the 'Remixing / Mastering For Atmos' business will be as huge as the remixing / mastering for CD industry was, this isn't speculation it's just how markets work.
A deliciously perilous time for any streaming service who are Atmos averse. It would not be unreasonable to expect that one of them could become the Blockbuster Video of the audio world. It's also a rare opportunity for the smaller streaming services to gain a bigger market so they should be all over it like a cheap suit. Some braver artists and labels could also see this is a way reassert some control over their product too, charging the steaming services more thus challenging the monopoly of the handful that dominate. Interesting times indeed if the record company execs can stop shoving their profits up their noses and dressing 20 years younger than their age and thinking that they are the cools kids.
Consumer demand will dictate what happens and the question asked by them is far more simple than ours as industry pros or engineers, muso's and producers 'Has it got Atmos?' is the only question the punter will ask. We should not be at home to Mr Musical Snobbery.The public have a long and storied history of choosing even inferior tech (VHS, MP3 vs Betamax and Flac) because in some cases hardware manufacturers and marketers had a war and the worse tech won the hearts and money of the consumer. Atmos is better tech and seems to be more than a novelty.
Your conclusions about this format prevailing is correct, that there's extra hardware to sell to the public almost guarantees it.
I contend there will still be a remixing / remastering gig boom. 'Abbey Rd now available in Atmos, only on insert-name-of-streaming-service-here'
I really hope a smart speaker company take you guys up on the offer, I couldn't think of anyone better placed than you to do this well, honestly and professionally.
There are a few streams of potential income you maybe didn't consider regarding the ROI. The opportunity to become the industry standard school for training and retraining engineers is up for grabs and that could be the bread and butter business taking care of the overheads for a long time. So you should put that in the mix.
Were I a suit in the industry right now I would also be rereading the often hilarious and always insightful 'Appetite For Self Destruction: The Spectacular Crash of the Record Industry in the Digital Age' by Steve Kropper, we are at the dawn of one of those moments.
My current set up: 7.4.2 , I have a Denon AVR (6700h) . no current amps installed at the moment for any of my channels. i recently purchased an apple tv 4k device with the a4 bionic chip . I've been using my Xbox x and a fire stick to play Netflix, Disney plus or any Dolby Atmos enabled streaming apps. as a music fan and self proclaim audiophile i'm always pushing my sonic enable ears to new horizons ,so I decided to play some music using the apple tv apple music app already installed on the device. just like the iPhone the interface is user friendly and its packed with playlists including spatial audio aka DOLBY ATMOS. first song i play is "circles" by post malone . honestly it was like hearing music differently for the first time . watching this video they broke down the mixing process of DA for the apple music streaming service but man when i tell you that i was immersed i quickly called on the family so they can listen and they too were blown away. you hear every chime,snare,kick,bass, etc... in true surround sound, not that filtered audio vox preset (jazz, dance, dolby, dts, mutli, blah blah blah) no this was true immersion . i was blown away , i spent a good 2 hours listening to songs like if I'm hearing them for the first time . kudos to apple for making such a awesome device. the $300 is so worth it. also the movies and tv shows look redefined from a projector , yea that's right a projector . it took my equipment a few levels up. so now im thinking what if I do get amps for the 5 channels or 7 depending the budget, how much would that enhance my listening experience!! I hope this is helpful to anybody whos into the DA or just wants to fall in love with your media equipment all over again. if you have questions ill be glad to assist in answering to the best of my ability and experiences in this field. lets continue to support dolby atmos , it has supreme potential for home theater and media enthusiast alike .
No matter how sophisticated the progress of technology is, to make money from it it has to be accepted by the masses and we all know that anything with more than 2 speakers is simply not wife compatible.
That is why the headphone products will make 90% of the Atmos market and why its good enough to mix for that medium .
Add a binaural reverb (HOFA IQ for example) to your music and you will never go back.
it would be interesting to have a recent survey of user preferences = how many people use an actual hifi system still. I have a sinking feeling it is a world made up of bluetooth speakers and wireless headphones predominantly. To invest on a large scale to churn out mixes that most of listeners will never appreciate...borders on a scam to me.
I am so happy that I finally found a 5.1 girl to marry.
Actually that's about to change. Where we are usually most concerned about sound quality and want a good soundsystem the most is usually our cars.
The Mercedes Maybach has a true Dolby Atmos soundsystem. The Mercedes S550 will certainly follow in the coming years and then be available in all models (as is usually how features go). Cadillac, Lexus, and BMW will (as always) make it an available option to stay competitive. Once an option is available for Cadillacs it generally becomes an option in Chevrolet and GMC vehicles about 3yrs later. Lexus/Toyota and Audi/VW follow the same routine. So within 10yrs, Atmos will likely be a common feature in cars. I also read awhile back that JBL was working on an aftermarket Dolby Atmos soundsystem for cars.
So it really comes down to whether or not there is enough professional quality music being released to drive demand for cars with the feature to sell.
Most of the customers I’ve talked to actually vastly prefer spatial audio over stereo on headphones to my surprise
I'm here, and currently making a petition to have any comment made before mine removed, to restore order
Sounds reasonable
hahahaha Murk strikes again 😆
You will never stop Flop Cat 😺😺😺😺
I LOVE that Dave Way is using a KRK setup in is untreated room. It totally goes into my opinion that there is absolutelly no need for high end speakers for atmos production, invest in an excelent stereo pair and then buy a prosumer atmos setup just for the paning, none of these big cats are using the surround speakers for fine tunning, just for panning.
Best explanation video I've see, any chance of a updated video as we are in 2023
Great current info guys.
Nice job on the Scheps cat. :)
As a programmer who actually programmed spatial audio renderers/decoders and a music producer, I can see two major problems in Atmos:
First is that Surround formats' biggest strength is not in traditional stationary audio reproduction. Its strength lies with moving audio objects, just as Atmos demos showed. But, people listen to music as stationary audio(audio without movements, e.g. no instruments moving around or vocalist moving around) for a very long time. There's no easy way to change this and perhaps changing this would be really weird. So there is not really a place for surround format in music production or playback, just as 5.1 is not either.
Second is that, as mentioned above, surround format need moving audio objects to shine. But the problem is, moving objects in surround audio also need to be done by people, using automation in DAW. For the proper application, like in movies, this is a huge task. It requires too much human work to be made great. That's why a lot of Atmos movies is not that great. Upper 4 Atmos channels are not used most of the time, and even if it's used, it may not be used well. For example, in John Wick 2 there are some scene with bullets flying by in Atmos channels, but some other scenes, although there are bullets strike and flyby on screen, there's no sound using Atmos. Because there are may be hundreds of bullets in the movie, but creating hundreds automation for them for Atmos is just...too much.
Until the above two problems are solved, I think Atmos will be destined to fail. Even if other things improved.
Thanks for the great comment, these are good points of course!
Artificial intelligence will fix it. Someone just needs to write a proper algorithm for it.
Atmos for music should be a Live Performance Only experience.
Well said 💯
The Dolby atmos for headphones software works great for videogames that support 7.1 or 5.1 surround etc.
I've found it converts those channels into a very discrete and smooth surround space for 2 channel headphones. Like, I never have to think about a gaming headset again. Any headset is now compatible with surround for me and it sounds *Better* and more accurate than any surround you get when buying a "surround headset"
Like it works so well that I've developed a pet peeve against surround gaming headsets because all they do is put your game audio in a reverb chamber and then claiming its surround.
Dolby atmos for headphones doesnt do that, Your right and left channels are still isolated like they should be, but now you have front left, front right, rear left, rear right and front and they all sound exactly how you would expect them to sound in terms of positioning
also I can just leave it on all the time cause if whatever I'm listening to only has 2 channels then no processing will be applied thus music and YT videos sound normal
Exactly what I have found in my research and gathering of info. I am a full time mixing engineer in Nashville, Atmos for music is a long way off from being viable. And just a bad business decision for someone like me who owns and operates a studio business.
Great video. Thanks guys
Cheers Goran :)
I don't think mixing 7.1.4 really need 7 hig-end big 3-way speakers.Because except the main L R channel, the others is more for effect and space feelings, put much money on these channels is a kind of waste IMO. With LFE subwoofer decent 2-way speaker will do the job?
And what your thought about surround mastering? I just found that the limiter was working quiet different by changing the channel link mode, limiter's working is highly channel interferer, and do you think there should be a new loudness measure standard for the surround mastering?THX
Like Wayne said, Atmos is VERY different to existing surround formats. *Ideally* you want exactly the same speaker model on every channel, but most people are using a smaller model from the same manufacturer, mainly for cost and real-estate reasons.
And there is a concrete loudness measure for Atmos - it's -18LUFS. Go above that and the Dolby police will come for you, and your mix WILL be rejected.
hehe well played at the end!
I’ve only listened to a few albums with atmos - but one of them (a Beatles one, maybe let it be) and it was almost transformative. I’m crap at describing things, but it was like being in the room. But not in a sort of stereo 3D magic field sense, more that it all just sounded really real and like the guitars were in my room with me. But then some other ones I couldn’t really tell much difference.
I went to an atmos demo studio in London for the new PMC Monitor speaker launch. It was a huge 11.8.6 system which was like £250k. I'm still a bit unsure if the average consumer actually cares about atmos compared to stereo or I'll be wrong in a few years or so.
Dolby also worked on the sound system for the new "Lucid Air" electric car which has an integrated 23 ch atmos sound system built in it.
I believe your correct. Unfortunately most people don’t care enough about Atmos. For sure all the speakers you need to do Atmos justice is not cheap and you need room. The bounce off the ceiling is hit and miss even with a flat ceiling.
You aren’t wrong, my business takes me into my customers homes on a daily basis and I can assure you what the 99% are listing to are mono streaming speakers not even stereo, what people want is simple, non intrusive audio. The majority of people are doing other things and listening to music in the background so having a 3D experience I’d think would definitely be annoying to rather unwanted in nearly every case that I’ve physically observed myself… I’m sure there is a market for gamers and other niche markets, but the mainstream in my view will never adopt this or even consider it…
Nice move guys!
I would want normal 5.1 and add wide stereo and left and right height, it would work better with my pc (a lot easier to set up) than overhead left and right plus having surround to the left end right of my chair.
Have not seen a receiver that flexible yet. Scalable is relative.
3:10 correction: every surround system out there will mix-down just fine. That's not new with Atmos/object-based audio.
What's theoretically possible with OBA is also not the same as what happens in the real world: outside of high-end cinema processors or the weird tricks employed by sound bars, the decode engines are *all* assuming you have speakers in the Dolby- recommended positions.
Bass management is not baked into the Dolby project file, but it is handled seamlessly by basically every Atmos-capable playback system. On the production side, nothing has changed there since the 90s. You can safely send full-range audio to main channels, and it's best practice to send sub-100hz info to LFE rather than surround speakers.
Atmos is a nice idea, remember video phones - great idea, but when mobile telephony included this feature, no one used it. Until we had a pandemic, and then What'sApp and Zoom became a thing.
The problem is, who need to listen in surround, and in a world where most people expect their sound to move with them, and more and more people live in smaller spaces, as land becomes more expensive, only a few people have the space to install Atmos. Nice idea, but it will never catch on, cos the average consumer does not need it, and simply does not want to have 14 speakers all over the place - for what - just to listen to sound.
It's a Rolls Royce/Bugatti Veyron idea. Probably will only be needed in Cinemas, or public spaces, but for most homes, - No way, it will not catch on.
Dolby Atmos is pretty popular in the Home Theater space, in fact, it’s what many of us look for. While yes, not everyone will have a home theater they spent 10-100k on, the few that do spend a lot typically, I’m “entry level” but my set up is close to 10k. So I think it’s kinda like mobile games where most people won’t spend money on it, but those who do spend a lot. Plus if you’ve been to a true Dolby Atmos cinema it crushes none atmos one’s. Honestly (and you won’t believe me) my home theater sounds better than every theater surrounding me and I need to drive about 50 miles to DC before I find one better. This is common in the home theater space too. If you care: I have a 135 inch screen with a 4k projector with 7.2.2 (plan to add two more to height) speaker set up. Omitting brands and receiver and such as it won’t matter to most. I think one way to quantify this is, a typical cinema has like 50k to 100k speakers divide that by the amount of seats and you get like 100k/250 = $400 per seat of sound (weird but trying to quantity it a little) vs my home theater (just speakers and not including other cost) 5k/3 = 1.6k sound per seat. So you’d expect the more money per seat the better the sound right? I have a listening room aka my office lol with studio monitors in them and I still prefer that over the home theater when it comes to music. 2.1 for music is still king for me. However, for movies and shows? Not even close
@@PerfectorZY Right, but spending that kind of money on a home theatre is unrealistic for 90% of people due to budget, space or both. I just personally don't get it for music. I still remember the quad stuff from years ago and even the 5.1 stuff and it was gimmicky. I listen as if I'm watching the band perform, so to me, stereo makes the most sense.
@@Scott__C for music 2 or 2.1 is all you need. For Home Theater yeah it makes a huge difference. That’s the break down lol. I still use studio monitors for music. I listened to a track in my home theater that used Dolby atmos, and it was kinda weird hearing David Bowie sand from behind me lol
In traditional 5.1 setups, if you tell the processor that there is no center speaker - then the information from that channel is definitely folded into the left and right channels. If it didn't, there would be almost zero dialogue when running a 4.1 surround setup - which many people do (and prefer over a 5.1 setup)
So you're saying I should mix atmos in headphones?
Thanks!
I know Atmos works because if you play the Atmos demo discs even with 7.2 not having high speakers in the back it still feels like there’s speakers in the back. However I think the problem is the way Hollywood mixes movies. There’s so much going on in any given scene it’s hard to distinguish what’s coming from the heart speakers or whatever speakers and most of the high speaker is dedicated to music. So yes Atmos works but it’s all in the mix.
You work on ATC monitors for your mastering but you don't NEED to be using the ATC's for atmos, you need to match all the speakers but why not also have an additional pair of dedicated L/R stereo speakers next to the ATC's just for Atmos, that way you can buy some more realistically priced speakers. HHB are using Genelecs for Atmos installations for example and you could get 6 pairs of Genelecs or even ADAMs and cut the cost right down. It's early days as well, if Atmos is going to be a success in the music world (as opposed to film/TV) then it will depend on the availability of an affordable monitor controller, if you think about it this is not a huge deal because there are hi fi home cinema receivers that have had this kind of routing/delay/EQ technology for years, in fact many have discrete audio inputs which could easily come from a multi channel audio interface/DAW.
Dolby created Atmos for cinemas. It got the name out there, and now its in the home market, but as one of your speakers said, Atmos Head phones for example, and I will add, phones, Cars etc are not Atmos even though on some brands the name is used. In the Cinema, Dolby 7.1 was, and still is the best sound format. I cant see how Atmos sound can be 3D? Great video, and very interesting. Thank you.
I understand Dolby trying to push this and bored mix engineers getting excited but I think would be far, far more interesting trying to get the general public into really good 2-channel audio. A good stereo system can sound absolutely holographic without being gimmicky. But people generally don't even have the budget, or space for that matter, to set up a proper 2-channel system. Who is the end product user really meant to be here? Cinemas and binaural gamers of course but beyond that? It sounds like another way of tricking people into buying a heap of those tinny plastic speakers that will go in the trash a few years later.
Yep, nailed it… the only real application here is professional systems, most likely only movie theaters that actually have the system, which is a rather limited market to be mixing for. Unless your already in that business…
The more of these videos I watch, the more I feel like this is a front to revitalize the "commercial studio" and take the reins back from everyone doing label-level mix work at home... like a new-gen gatekeeping vibe. Just my $.02. Cheers
@@danymalsound Sure sounds that way, only thing I know for sure is there’s a lot of people getting paid by Dolby to push it…
@Robert W I can assure you we weren’t paid
@@robertw1871 it's my understanding that Apple has been the main spearhead behind this push with their spatial algos and as much as I love apple, I find it annoying that they have such power to force obsolescence in different facets of consumer tech : /
So, if recording binaural is much better than the algos, would it be possible to place a binaural recording apparatus , aka fake head, in a kick ass Atmos certified room and record the playback of the speaker setup ?
Same as the classic echo chambers .. or guitar amping
I would pay for that service by minutes...same as Access Analog.
We thought precisely the same thing a couple of months ago and asked Dolby themselves.
Steve Genewick had tried this and it doesn’t work. No one knows WHY it doesn’t work, but it just doesn’t. So… maybe in the future, but currently not yet.
However you CAN currently incorporate an already existing binaural recording into a Dolby Atmos mix and it will play back with the expected results.
budget version would be to build an atmos system out of auratones or similar ;)
Atmos is a gimmick in the sense that no binaural version sounds good or good enough in comparison to stereo on headphones,
nor any listener is going to invest in 12 speakers.
It is only an attempt by Apple to sell more headphones and upward firing speakers, that can magically play sourround, after convincing the gullible that it is the new revolutionary sound experience.
I think it's getting better VERY quickly - I've already had one experience with Airpods Max that had me taking the headphones off because I thought something was going on in the room and it freaked me out....
Be patient, we will evolve with time and grow more ears.
While I agree that sound bars are garbage… atmos has nothing to do with Apple 😂… atmos is an amazing sound technology that is still being “worked with” I remember back when 5.1 first came out…. It was useless more or less… now we pretty much fill surround channels masterfully…
The same will happen with atmos… it’s in its infancy (along with dts X)… it will take a couple years before it really gets utilized properly… that said though
Quite a few movies are just amazing in atmos/dts X… but you need to have deep pockets and stay away from sound bars…
Spoken like someone who's never heard Atmos
@@DeadlyMixKrew obviously since he thinks that atmos is somehow about “apple” though I would say it’s not his fault… proper atmos setups are ridiculously expensive, and even if you have the money setting one up properly is easier said than done….
Atmos is a true game changer for audio, and when done right can push things to another level.
i dived into dolby atoms mixing and monitoring only using my home cinema avr - connecting it via cdmi to my Mac shows me all the output channels of the avr :) . not much to invest :)
Ok so without trying to be a know it all (but defenitely being obnoxious)
You said Atmos can be Encoded to Binaural, but if my memory and the comparison to Ambisonic semantics serves me well, it's beimg Decoded to Binaural.
Also the speaker setup order is 7.1.4, since the overheads are the last thing that they came up with.
But more interestingly for me, what do you think about Ambisonics?
You can also export B Format and decode it on the end-user-device so it can tranlate to every setup aswell.
It's far more open.
It's just not being pushed as much as Atmos because money.
Or look at Mach1 Spatial Audio, which is similar, but wants to bridge between different 3D Audio formats
I don't think there's a particular public appetite for any technology that involves extra boxes and cables in their living rooms (how many 'civilians' do you know that have a 5.1 setup?), so from a domestic point of view, this could easily go the way of 3DTV, but there could be a big commercial driver for this, or some other object-based audio standard, in the VR/gaming world.
So, from what I've gathered, using atmos on headphones means that you need to be perfectly still if you want to be listening to a consistent mix all the way through, otherwise if you move your head, the balance is always changing. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of headphones?
I'm sure apple will be able to sell a shit ton of earbubs and headphones, but to me this kinda seems like the whole 3D gimmick a few years back in the movie and tv world.
Only if you’ve got the head tracking turned on, and I think that’s mainly intended for video use, so if you turn your head the sound is still coming from where the screen is. Would drive me nuts though….
@@PresentDayProduction yea that makes sense
As the music business stands now, this is insulting. Its just a massive cost for us in the music business, the bottom line that is almost non existent wont get larger by this format, people that invest in this wont be able to charge more for it, because who will pay more? Its just people in the industry, paying for and to big tech to have a stir around selling their features.
Well, it's the top 5% who are earning the money, and it always has been in pretty much every format, ever! So I'm not sure anything has changed really?
@@PresentDayProduction Finally a way for established and highly paid engineers to set themselves apart from the "mixing revolution". Makes sense actually.
YEAH!
Good info.
Cool!!!
Okay so we can't agree what the baseline setup is, or what even qualifies someone to do this work, and we can't say Atmos mastering engineer is a thing even though a couple days ago I literally voted in the Grammys for a host of immersive producers and mastering engineers. Cool.
That was brought up in the Atmos video from Puremix - it turns out the engineers in the running for immersive mastering are also the guys who mixed it! So the Grammy's need to catch up with the times 😆
No matter how you look at it it doesn’t hurt to get into it for the learning curve. Nothing is perfect. Anybody remember when the Beatles hard panned the vocals and the band. I’d say up and coming engineers don’t make a huge shift but start learning what you can.
Awesome 👍 3:32 should be 7.1.4 ?
Yeah…
The so call pros are so wrong here 😂😂😂😂😂
Yes, we’re aware there was an issue in the video here.
I can’t believe it cost so much to playback something on atmos. Can’t a person just get the Apple TV into a Trinnov DMON?
I think all the Atmos studio now is mainly for movie/3D game usage and only focuses on spatial image placement and checking. For these kinds of formats especially 3D games, a normal stereo sound stage is just not working at all, you must at least use binaural. For the music world, Spatial music format and gears (not just atmos) just need more time and much importantly, more money.
is Dolby Atmos for headphones worth it?
It’s ‘different’ but it’s NOTHING like a proper Atmos mix on a proper speaker system
I’m professional mixing engineer, 25 years in studio business, and I don’t see any long term future success of Atmos format. After all this hype will gone and investors stop pumping money in advertisement this format will be in the same place as 3D Movies, 3D Glasses, 3D TVs etc
Likewise. This is a clever bit of technology but it is doomed to remain a surround solution for cinemas. Nobody is going to make the required investment in time and money to produce spatial mixes of music that will be primarily consumed on phones and earbuds. A handful of people with home cinema setups will listen to a handful of albums with fancy 3D panning and forget about it when the novelty wears off. There will be zero mass consumer demand, therefore zero additional money to be made, therefore zero chance of it supplanting stereo.
This is what I am worrying about. There are tons of great researchers who are in this subject and if people aren't focus on this because of fashion is gone? Then great technology will be forgotten.
@@nocastus Jackpot! End of the day we mix music for those who'll listen to it on cheap format (computer speakers, cheap headphones). It simply and will always come down to the quality of a song. Gimmicks wear off, but there are quality songs made in the 50's and 60's that people still listen to, because of the quality of the songs.
@@bassinblue Sitting here right now listening to Frank Sinatra in mono from 1951, and it still has the power to give me chills. The songs, the singer, the music are all that matters.
@@nocastus Can’t beat the chairman of the board. Music matters. Producers and mastering engineers these days worry too much.
it doesn't have to cost nearly as much as 150k, there's more then enough nice and cheap full range speakers you could use, just have to be some you like and get to know well, then time align and maybe correction eq, dampen the shit out of your room, thats all. can be 2k as well, as long as it translates.
And, from my view of the inner workings of Atmos and spatial audio, I don't think it will improve that much in the future too. Under the hood of these sparkling fancy names, these are just audio applications of Spherical Harmonics. It is a mathematical method developed in 18th century, for solving wave functions on the surface of a sphere. Only until now we have enough computational power to solve these problems. Fundamentally these math is there long ago and it determined how much we can get from it. In order to get better resolution using lower channel counts, it will require much more data and much more computational power. Unless there are some really big change in math, there will be almost no way to get around and get cheap, better solutions. So....I really don't think it will going well...
Try sirus headset 5.1 it use 4 speakers per ear
I see a lot of problems with the Atmos thingy: 1) binaural downfolded Atmos sound crappy (at least to my ears) - 2) Atmos hardware setups are expensive and take a lot of real estate - 3) The music industry hasn't found a way how to monetize Atmos (sell the upmixed back catalogue?) - 4) At the end of the day someone (= the consumer) has to pay for the additional Atmos cost - 5) The consumer doesn't care, how music sounds.
i always felt dolby was the stepchild and imax auro and thx were better but some people are getting really good at it so there might be hope oh neurlx is rally good setting too
Do it!!! You’ll be a mini Blackbird Studios! Would the SCM20’s be better for the surrounds than the SCM100’s for price? Great video!
Yeah you could use SCM20s BUT WE WANT 100s!!! 😄
Good idea! Head Domes!
Do it ATC, c'mon do it
Sticking with stereo
Not first!
Good for media that is trying represent sound the way we hear it in the natural world, ie. movies and games. Unnecessary for music, which we are used to hearing in the natural world coming from a more or less fixed point. Sure, experimental music designed to take advantage of Atmos would probably be cool, but most people would only ever hear it in scaled down binaural anyway, 'cos no-one wants to shell out for a multi speaker set up, not to mention the listening position issue.
Sure, after trying to push the general audience to get 5.1 "home theater" systems (with disputable success regarding quality and market reach) ...now we all will get setups with even more speakers. Sidenote, in the 70s the industry tried to market quadrophonic sound. We know how that went. Don't get me wrong, I am amazed of Atmos in a movie theatre: seen Gravity and one of the last Star Trek Movies and it really was an embellishment. Now, if you'd asked my wife - probably a shrug. So even more, for music consumer use it boils down to the questions: Why (=who will notice), how, where. If WE find it amazing - theater or home- good and well. But who in the main audience is going to notice ..or care?
As an end user ( a consumer) Atmos is perfectly within reach using in my case Denon 4500 AVR , Apple Music , Panasonic 820 4K player , and a decent speaker set up configured to 7.2.4 . The cost though pricey is not anywhere near your suggested pricing though granted you are probably referencing commercial grade production kit which isn’t of interest to the consumer , but my system certainly isn’t fudged as per your comments , music wise and movie wise Atmos is an already maturing nicely , I wish the industry would pay as much attention to IMAX theatrical sound tracks on the back of DTS X and stop trying to stream everything which is of very poor quality compared with the physical disc. For me Atmos with my 13 speakers delivers very convincing object positioned sound and the Atmos movie estate is growing healthily on 4K discs , streaming is just a license provision which can easily been withdrawn leaving the consumer high and dry as seen recently in the Spotify fiasco for Neil Yound and Joni Mitchell proving that the physical disc a much better route for Atmos enhanced content , superior performance which doesn’t even need the internet to play it! Long live Atmos. !
Yep we were referencing commercial grade monitors. Our main speakers are £32,000 a pair. 16 of that quality starts to get a bit pricey! Most studios I know who have made the leap have spent at least £150k in doing so
@@PresentDayProduction wow my wife doesn’t know the amount I’ve already spent delivering Atmos now, I’d never get away with these costs lol, good luck guys, I’m retired now, used to design cinemas in my previous life, wish I was still in the business! Make IMAX work for us on physical discs please !
head domes. environmental filters in the air circulation and apple and android and the meta-lizard in the eyeballs. array of small speakers in the interior. "environment sound" is a 1x1 matrix speaker to microphone. you could make a version with detachable lower and eyepieces like ski goggles or something so you can take it off if necessary. all embedded in a animal or other plushie of your choice as your head.
I'm with the other guys! We ask politely, NO! Demand the return of Flop Cat 😺😺😺
This format still feels like all other surround formats... best suited for movies etc... I don't really see anyone wanting immersive audio in music, nor willing to invest in the equipment and setup. Hell, if you want some interesting effects in the music you mix, like sounds coming from behind/ above, there are plenty of techniques and plugins to do so. At least for headphone listeners, which let's be honest, will be the vast majority consuming immersive audio formats. But we'll se I guess, Apple seems to be throwing their money into this and they are often a trend setters, so...
Watched in bed, fell asleep halfway through. did I miss the cat?
1. Surely you have to mix every possible speaker combination don't you otherwise if you mix for 14 speakers as you suggest how will know you what a punter with say 6 speakers is actually going to hear? 2. We all know that general punters (except for nerds) are not going to shell out for a 14 speaker system which you said is the optimum. 2. Then there's the cost for studios to kit out their rooms with expensive new speakers, interfaces and amps etc. 3. I say it again... most of the general public is quite happy listening to music on crappy earbuds so apart from the odd audio nerd who is going to pay out for an Atmos set up in thier home? When (if ever) wav files are the standard for streaming and downloads then you MIGHT have a chance to get the public to buy into Atmos but I still doubt it. VHS became the standard because the public loved it and was willing to pay for it, CD became the standard became the because the public loved and was willing to pay for it, DAT died because the public had no demand for it. Downloads and then streaming became the standard because the public loved it for it's cheapness and freedom of choice. Blu-Ray is better quality than DVD but it didn't become the standard over DVD because the public was quite happy with DVD and certainly the majority were not going to throw away their DVD machines for a Blu-Ray machine, and now movie streaming is replacing DVD's because you can purchase and watch any movie ever made in seconds and it's relatively cheap. So for Atmos to take off it would seem history tells us two things have got to happen... the public have got to say it really wants it and that it's willing to pay the price. When you consider the outlay that you guys quoted I can't see you doing that if say only 10% of the public buys in to it. Atmos works in the cinema, it BELONGS in the cinema.
If you mix on a 14 speaker system and the consumer plays it back on a 5 speaker system then it should (and largely does) translate very well, that's the main difference between this and previous surround technologies. It will also translate to headphones and earbuds much better over time, and that's where it really appeals. The quality of the encoding is improving all the time as well, so I don't think it will be long before 24bit 28khz wav files are what everyone is listening to if they're streaming - without even knowing it. The other thing we didn't mention in this video is that the first raft of Atmos enabled cars are now starting to hit the market - and the manufacturers know exactly where you'll be sitting, and we're already seeing technology that senses how many people are in the car and adjusts the audio accordingly. So whilst stereo won't be going anywhere, probably ever, we think it is quite an exciting time and hope Atmos takes off. But you do need that 7.4.1 system to work from at the moment. I'm sure this too will change over time.
@@PresentDayProduction Sorry for my late night rant.... I must stop doing it ha ha! I take your points and I think if every car comes with it ready to go eventually punters might get used to it and consider stereo inferior, but then again as we all know a lot of people are listening in mono at home. Another point is considering 60,000 songs are uploaded every day to Spotify alone I would estimate less than 10% (probably less than 5%) of those songs are recorded in serious studios, mixed by an actual engineer and then sent to a professional mastering house. That means the rest are recorded and mixed in home studios like me and I certainly can't afford to shell out for the eqiupment to produce Atmos. I suppose the question is will the 90%, most of whom will master themselves or use auto mastering, be willing to send there songs off to be mixed and mastered in Atmos losing artistic control over the final mix and incurring a quite hefty fee in the process. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Last!
JVC EXOFIELD headphones execute Atmos sound really, really well. I prefer them over speakers to be honest
Would be unnecessary and kinda ridiculous to expand on the ATC’s...You could do a room entirely with something like Neumann for 1000-3000€ per speaker and become Dolby certified for a fraction of the cost, and your main room with ATC’s remains intact.
#MuSétiś
MusicSurroundsUs©
Equipment for 5.1.2/ Dolby ATMOS : [2022]
Computer : APPLE M1 MAX STUDIO
1.) Logic Pro X
2.) Apogee Symphony IO
2a.) Apogee Symphony 64 PCIe
3.) 5.1 Heritage RAM 5000 monitor controller
4.) (5) FOCAL Alpha 50 EVO
4a.) (2) FOCAL CSM 40’s
4b.) FOCAL SUB ONE
5.) Apple AirPods Max
7.1.4 to be exact…but who’s counting👌
I guess the question was where it was worth and the answer was an EMPHATIC NO! I can only imagine soundbar manufacturers - they must love Atmos as much as speaker manufacturers hate it.
Who in the right state of mind is going to put 9 speakers in their living room along with 1 or 2 subs?
I have two 5 channel home theater systems with B&W speakers and I'm still making do with Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. It really sounds terrible:-) How can I live with it?
headdomes.... I'll get the patent before you guys do :P
I think a better investing field for audio could be a little chinese Bluetooth speaker. It will translate better to the way People really listen to músic.
Musicians/composers who create music don't have atmos studio.
Yes, we've DAWs with atmos in them, but we don't have 12 speakers (and the interface to feed them) so we don't create any content for atmos so far.
Consequently it will take a looooong time to get music made for this type of reproduction system and if there's no content especialy made for it, other than overproduced blockbuster movies, music comsumers will not be interested, even if music providers try to lie to them with "atmos remixes of the Beatles" 😀.
If a group of manufacturers sets an affordable way to create our art "in atmos" (a new cheap, and genuinely efficient, headphone system, far better than "binaural"? I don't know), it will change the game.
14:46 The real reason why thes a push for atmos 🥴😭💯🤦🏽♂️
Interesting tech. Truth be told, though, normies/civilians don’t even do true stereo, listening in, either, headphones or phone speakers.
Of course none of those things matter really, I’m just here to watch your opinion on the matter!
But when it's automatically given to them (in cars for example, the first raft of Atmos enabled cars are arriving!) I think it has more potential than previous formats. But we'll see how it 'pans' out (or 'puns' out 😁)
@@PresentDayProduction oh, definitely! Ease of use and transparent operation are the main deciding factors for consumers these days!
I may just be in a minority, but this doesn't really excite me for music. For movies, absolutely, but I just spent a few grand on a system a couple years ago, so I'm not going to do that again very soon.
For listening to music, I always envision myself watching the band playing the song I'm listening to. In that case, I'd be in front of them and the stereo field makes the most sense to me, again, unless I'm watching a movie of that band, and the shot is from the stage.
I feel like Dolby is trying to recoup their investment and they're giving labels money to push for Atmos mixes. I think unless there are Atmos headphones, since most people use that as their primary listening method, it's not really going to take off. And let's be honest, I can buy quality headphones for $100-500. $4000 headphones aren't leaving my house.
Is it worth investing? No
Dolby Headdomes®
Where#s the public acceptance? You know how it is with supply and demand, and at the moment people don’t even want to pay a dollar a song for stereo, so where is the income going to come from to finance all this? And just wait till they find out how much data a Dolby atmos mix is, 20 songs and your phone is full, mobile streaming is sometimes as low as 48k, then binaural, so why not just mix binaural when that how over 90% of music is being consumed, at sometimes sub mp3 quality…..somewhere the arithmetic isn’t adding up, mixing on a minimum of 12 speakers that probably the mix engineer is the only guy that will hear it like that 99.9% of the people listen on their earbuds…….by the way, how are the customers (bands) going to be able to check the mixes anyway?
With an awesome specifically built system it sounds great. In every other setting it’s absolute garbage. It sounds downright awful with headphones.From a consumer and mix engineer viewpoint.
Your reasoning makes perfect sense for your situation, specializing in mastering. For others, including me, it's worth taking the time to understand how to get started in Atmos by leveraging gear we already have, making trade-offs in expense vs. convencience, and recognizing what features are less important than others. Your video inspired me to make one response. ruclips.net/video/hSSQ4zXouZQ/видео.html
Is it about the money or the art for you guys? Seriously …. ATMOS is what 4K/8K/16K is for tv’s.
We create music with live artists and musicians, yet have been subjected to producing music in mono/stereo … we hear in 3D all the time, but we’re going to stick solely to left/right?
WoW.
Yes but pulling £150,000 out of thin air for an ATC Atmos system isn’t possible! 😂
Sounds expensive. Literally.
No way this will take off.
I actually think it will... once the headphone algorithms improve massively
Flopkat in your face hahah
Per one million music consumers, how many do you think will have an Atmos speaker setup? And how many will listen on headphones? I guesstimate 1 and 999,999. Furthermore, there is no single "standard correct" speaker Atmos speaker setup (7.1.2? 5.1? 9.1.4?). Heh. The only standard is... a pair of stereo headphones. So no, you don't need Atmos speaker setup and actually on the contrary, you HAVE TO mix on headphones to actually hear what all people will hear. Good luck.
But in two years time the speaker setup will be the same, what consumers hear on headphones will be significantly different as the algorithms improve. So, at the moment at least, mixing (at a professional level) on speakers is essential
@@PresentDayProduction What speaker setup will be the same? 7.1.2? 5.1? 9.1.4? 25.10.50? The binaural algo has already been researched and finetuned for the average ear and skull and so in the future it might only be slightly tweaked, not radically changed. So again, the only two real standards you have for music now, and will have in the future, is stereo and binaural Atmos. The speaker setups are only needed for cinema audio FXs, not music.
Can’t see it really going anywhere despite all the marketing hype… I think Dolby is wasting their money with all the hundreds of RUclips reviews and celebrities pushing it… It’s hard enough to justify the cash layout vs return on a really good two channel system much less an order of magnitude more for a legit 10+ channel system that’s actually tonally accurate and tuned to the room… I suspect I’d have exactly zero customers willing to pay the additional cost for this… I’ll wait a few years and see where it actually goes… A reference system entry level cost of $200,000 to well over a million if you have to build an entire room to get the added height and 3D room treatment correct… then well, yeah… $48,000 for 2 channels is all this poor boy can afford….
Yeah, they should've really leaned on the movie market. Even with people having home setups and streaming, having an experience that's only available in a theatre would mean something.
dolby atmos is for treble heads i cant stand the 4khz through 20 crap theris standardizing with no bass below 20hz man thx will always be
but i feel dolby had more bass back in the day dolby atmos lacks bass in certian movies
its actually 7.2.4 the middle number is always the subs but one is good thats why i dont like it i need two subs of course
atmos for music is dead silly
I think there’s a market for music that is produced and intended for Atmos, and maybe a handful of catalogue that transfers well. But it’s always going to be the consumer end of the tech that let’s it down
Please splash the Cat 🐱
He got stuck out in the rain the other day, so is splashed enough!😆
@@PresentDayProduction lol nice one