Wow Barry, this is such a nice surprise! I very much appreciate you sharing my video with your audience. I think you raised great points in what you took away from it. Since making the video, I’ve wondered more about how this most recent push got started. Best I can tell, it’s based on the rumor/fear that you’ll have to provide an Atmos mix to be playlisted on Apple Music. I own an indie record label/publishing company with a direct distribution deal with Apple. I mentioned that because they have indie label support channels there that aren’t available to the general public. So, I asked Apple about that requirement for playlists and I plan on making a follow up video soon discussing what I found out so stay tuned! 😁 Keep up the great work with your channel Barry! I appreciate your courage and willingness to speak to these issues. I really enjoyed your review of the Slate VSX in particular! It was an honor to be mentioned in this video, thanks again.
I like you both guys but I think you're wrong : Anyone as artists can create his Atmos mix with headphone + Logic for ZERO so you don't need pro studio to do it and especially if tomorrow DSP plan to ask for Atmos obligatory mix. So why being so upset and scared by changes ? Your only issue has studio owner is that you don't want to invest in an Expensive Atmos certified studio and I can understand that, but it doesn't mean Atmos is Bad. So we will see in the future traditional Stereo Studio and an other side specialized Atmos studio co existing (or studio with both tech) and I don't see any issue with that, you said yourself your customers doesn't want it so where is the issue ? You can keep your Stereo Setup or jump/add Atmos or moved to only Atmos only by selling your existing gears, everybody is free to take its road but don't blame Atmos all days.
@@sound4label there’s no fear, I’d gladly do it if it made sense. It really boils down to 2 things for me. 1. The delivery method for the vast majority of end users(binaural stereo render) is not good & in most cases sounds inferior to the stereo mix in my opinion. 2. There’s no clear path for indie artists & studios to increase revenue from it. Change doesn’t always equate to progress.
@@gkmixing sure I can speak to that because I do have an analog compressor on the 2 buss. I did it because I think it sounds better and I really enjoy bringing the sense of touch into the mixing process. I work faster with hardware. It’s a personal preference and I’ve also spent times where I mixed all ITB. The reason why I don’t think that’s the most relevant example in this particular discussion is that I’m not putting out videos making people feel like if they don’t get an analog compressor on the mix buss they are going to miss out. I’m not criticizing Atmos itself, in some cases I actually enjoy the new options it brings during mixing. What I am criticizing is the push that feels fabricated to me(hype doesn’t match demand). We don’t have a high quality way to deliver it to the end user(binaural is a mixed bag). Lastly, I don’t think it’s a good investment at this point for indie artists or smaller studios. IF the binaural rendering and/or Apple’s spatial audio greatly improves and they start paying better royalties then I’ll be much more interested.
I’ve worked in the music industry since 1977, recording, mixing and mastering. Hell, I watched quadraphonic come and go while I was in high school. I mix albums not movies, anything other than stereo is a big, fat joke to me. Atmos is just another non-important distraction to making and enjoying quality music. Great channel btw.❤
I think this is the wrong mindset. We are very clearly at a crossroads where consumption is very different than the eras you mention. We are also at the start of consumer demand for more immersive content. These two things can not be argued away because it is not going away. Year on year, immersive content is becoming more main stream and expected across industries. When done correctly, yes it cost more(everything does these days) but you are delivered tradional stereo and what ever immersive delivery spec per said platforms requirements. This comes down to what format will become the immersive audio standard. Dolby has the foot up because of their install base and hardware compatibily. Immersive expericense are also happening a lot more in the live sound and installation world. Seeing your comment reminds me of old dionos dragging their feet saying everything is a fad untill they have to look elsewhere for work. Some of the greatest hits, CD's, Daw's, MP3, Stream services, Surround Sound in homes etc.
@@firewerk66 basic 5.1? please do explain. 5.1 is now a subset of channel layouts and still a requirement many places. For music didn't stay because there was no support for it. Immersive is a different beast.
I worked for a major publishing company in LA once upon a time in Hollywood. You will know their name. I remember when one of my closest friends was hired by another well known major publishing company. The first thing they told him was “You’re on our side now”. You see my friend and I prior to this work were in a band together. In other words, the music companies looked upon the artists as a product where they could sell and maximize profits. Nothing has changed with that mindset.
I've been making music in my bedroom for a while now, but I'm only just now starting to make music that I'm genuinely proud of and want to share with the world. Nothing brings me more joy than being able to make my own music at home. It's all I have to offer. It would destroy me if I'm no longer able to do so.
Conspiracy theorist? No! Barry. It's TRUTH you are speaking sir. I get sick of that damn label being pushed on anyone and everyone that has an opinion or ideology that is not that of the mainstream/common way of thinking, which is of course the exact reason the term was created. But it can't be a theory when history has proven your philosophy on the subject many times over. Job well done sir. And I applaud you for having the ⚽️🏀 to get in front of the world and speak your honest opinion on a controversial topic while knowing its sure to cause waves. 👊
I thought it was a great video! I watched it right away when it came out. I am a full time freelance mixing and mastering engineer. I make my full time living off mixing. Since all this started I have had ONE client request Atmos and one briefly ask me about it. In all this time ONE client asked. The ones I spoke to about it said unless they are forced to adopt Atmos they don't have any interest. I then asked some of my family and friends about Atmos. A few friends said they thought it was cool but they said at the end of the day it all sound pretty much to the same to them. The rest of my friends and family looked at me like I had ten heads and no clue what Atmos was and when I described it to them they all said they would NEVER invest that much just to listen to music. The bottom line is the end consumer doesn't care and doesn't want it. Until that changes it will all be a fad and hype. Atmost is SUPER cool for movies, games, and tv but for music, it just doesn't make any sense! Apple is also out of touch with how the music industry really works. It's not the 90s anymore. Most music is mixed in bedrooms by people just like me now. The day of the big studios being king is over. I mix close to 150 projects a year and so do most of my friends. They don't understand the people who work on a majority of the music released don't have the space or money to set up an Atmos rig. If I have to do it I will because this is my job but I doubt I will end up putting a full Atmos rig in my studio. It just doesn't make sense here. The layout would be wacky but at the end of the day I don't think it's going to happen. I think this time next year Atmos will be in the past.
I work at an well respected indie mastering studio here in Brooklyn NYC. We're generally busy and always booking sessions. We even kept busy during the worst pandemic days. None of are clients are interested. Exactly one client of mine asked about it over a year ago. And my boss (whose studio it is, and who has a lot more clients than me) said that no one has asked him about Atmos at all. This truly is the corpration shoving it down everyone's throat. I don't understand how it could be made a standard if the artists don't want it. I've heard some consumers say they like it though. I don't think they care that much about it, they just like something they've heard on headphones. That doesn't seem like enough to justify the expense.
I was never convinced at all by atmos for music. Not in the slightest. Saw the video last week. Best on the subject. He brought up some great points about consumers.
Atmos for video games is really good as you need to know what's creeping up around you, but for music Stereo just hits harder. Stereo hits harder than surround in the car (old acura had 5.1 and I always preferred stereo for music) but for use cases where "space awareness" is needed I do prefer atmos.
Have you ever heard an Atmos music mix in a home speaker system? People used to think mono hit harder too, before stereo was jammed down our throats by the….movie business.
@@TroubadourMusic that was hyperbole for effect. It is true that stereo was developed for the movies. And there was pushback back in the day against stereo in the home, another speaker, new electronics, etc. history is just repeating itself. You still have mono devotees today.
I was a fan of Apple for 15 years. I’ve been needing to update my computer for some time now. When I found out that audio interfaces that run via FireWire are no longer compatible with Mac OS Ventura, it made me sick. Now Apple is forcing mixes to be in Atmos in order to be on playlists…one word…disgusting.
That's not just Apple though. I recently switched back to Mac's after many years on PC's. One of the reasons for the switch was it was getting harder to find a reliable firewire PCI card that actually worked (and had driver support). As much as it pains all of us, firewire is pretty much dead. You may still have gear and and OS that supports it, but the development ceased years ago. Best you can do is lock the system down, or move on to USB variants. There are plenty of videos out there showing what can be done with USB (and why FW isn't necessary) . Hell, I skipped Thunderbolt too. I'm an RME user and USB has never limited me at all.
Amen Barry. When the smaller studios can’t keep up, the artists are forced to turn to the record companies to cover their mix costs, and then the cycle we had in the 60’s through the 90’s starts all over.
@CraigScottFrost I'll definitely be handing my money to the pros to do atmos mixes for me. It kinda sucks but I accept it as an artist. To me, getting my music mixed in atmos in the future is not really an audio thing, but it is part of the marketing budget. If you have your song in an almost mix, it might get seen more than other artist's songs in apple music. I still have a ton of research to do, but it really is the wild west.
@@CraigScottFrost great points! I'll definitely consider that. I'm still working on getting great stereo mixed and really just building out my studio. But it's a great plan to hear how it will sound
It’s very well known that, historically, record labels are extremely late to the party when it comes to every single significant technological advance that has ever happened in recorded music. They get thrown into the technical dust and have to fight their way back over the next decade. Notable events that many here might be aware of: the move from phonograph to tape, the move from tape to CD and the move from physical to streaming. They’re very well aware of their own history. They once had a big meeting to discuss their failure of the streaming transition (there’s a book by John Seabrook that talks a little about this meeting). I think what happened this time is that they overcompensated on a massive level. Meaning they saw some evidence that Atmos had POTENTIAL to be the next big technical advance and went ALL IN….and then got stuck when it didn’t catch fire like they thought it could. They have to push it now because they don’t have any other choice. They totally overplayed while desperately trying not to underplay.
I think you’ve hit it right on the head. Record companies have been ripping people off the entire time they have existed, and they have NEVER known what they’re doing as far as WHO and WHAT to release. I worked in pre-Internet Radio. The record companies would send us new music every week, but for every hit tune, there were at least 20 that you’d NEVER even play - either on your station, or at home! Then, WHO has the money to buy the necessary equipment and have their house torn up just to install the SPEAKERS (never mind anything else) for an Atmos playback-only system that’s made to Dolby specifications? I’ve heard Atmos in movie theaters, and it’s pretty amazing. But if nobody told you a movie had Atmos sound, would you really notice? Or even CARE? To me, it’s just not that big a difference whether a film has or doesn’t have Atmos sound. Sure, it’s clever technology. But if a movie is good, it’s good, and if it’s bad, it’s bad, regardless of the sound system used. And I agree with David Dunne (elsewhere in these Comments), who says he was never convinced that Atmos for music was needed. We are issued only TWO ears. So why do we need a 15.1 or 7.1 system for listening? Especially if Atmos is supposed to work in HEADPHONES? I’ve been mixing in plain old stereo since the age of 12, and it has always worked just fine!
It’s a redistribution of power to get those home studios to either go broke or give up and let the big boys with bigger budgets scream, “We’re relevant again.”😂
I'm going to start by saying that I have a Dolby Atmos studio that conforms to spec. From an audio perspective, I love Atmos. It opens up mixes and is like a breath of fresh air to a lot of catalog material being remixed. The audio itself is one subject. That being said, the marketing push (i.e. requirement now) from Apple and others regarding Atmos mixes is definitely a power grab, no question about it. Stereo was never "licensed". It was a natural outgrowth of the technology of the time. It became a "de-facto" standard. Musically, it is the most popular reproduction format and doesn't require additional subscriptions or licenses to listen. THIS is where it starts to get all "conspiracy". It's all about the licensing, and getting people to pay a subscription (of course) to listen to Atmos content on their devices. And this might be in the form of a software add on or update, or a different subscription you have to have, or whatever - but I believe that is the ultimate goal. Technically, you can deliver a stereo mix through an Atmos formatted deliverable. Just because you can send stuff to 12 speakers doesn't mean you have to. But that doesn't address the fact that Atmos deliverables are now being required no matter what, and you can't say shit about it. Dolby is becoming the Live Nation/Ticketmaster of audio, it seems. And what a shame, because Dolby used to have a more decent reputation than being basically acting like a mobster now.
the most important lesson some of these companies don't seem to learn, or forget easily, is how much of a kick in the teeth this ends up being to them after they do all of this work to ruin their reputations with consumers.
Thank you for finally saying what needs to be said. Yes! This is by design and the following is what I posted on another channel regarding Atmos. This to me sounds like yet another way of gatekeeping and eliminating the competition. You touched on it very briefly that it probably flew over our heads without many realizing. For the longest, an artist and their laptop was all that’s needed to make a song and publish it on music streamers. Now! Big Tech has colluded with Big Electronics Biz who have access to cheap labor in producing the consumer products inexpensively. Who’s affected by this? The entry level aspiring engineer making mixes for free or close to free trying to make a name. Also, the artist that has not been “chosen” from the big bad a$$ record label to make art. I suppose we’ll all see each other in 5-10 years from now when Atmos Production is affordable to the entry level people. I truly feel saddened for the youth; owning property is quickly becoming out of reach because big investment firms like Black Rock, Vanguard and others are buying over market price. And now, for those who are trying to make it in the music industry/business are being pushed out because a bunch of Tech Firms and Electronics industry have made the production means out of reach. But freedom I suppose. Let us all go enjoy new school surround sound aka Dolby Atmos. FTP!
Great vid! You are spot on! It’s all about shutting the small business people down, and having corporations control everything. That includes AI/Robots, etc… THEY want all this set up by 2030. THEY want AI and Algorithms to be the music “creators”, and not us humans.
I’m never planning to go Atmos. I couldn’t care less how good it may be. There’s always been those in our community who have resisted the change and continue to this day. Just consider all the people who are recording analog and on porta studios to this very day! Certainly not a majority but a significant number of our community for sure. I suspect there are those of us who will follow a similar suit and continue as usual. And in this free and open market, if Spotify and others refuse our old school mixes, another streaming platform will emerge because that’s the American way.
@@finder2267 Depends on what it's going to cost you in terms of time and money. And how are you going to learn with out the costly rig involved? I would rather continue to refine my skills as a normal stereo mixing engineer.
@@piscesman54 I would learn the tools. The cost is very minimal. You do not need new monitors or a new interface. Grab a demo, and try it out with cans. Done! Going forward people doing music are going to really have to change the way they think when comes to deliverables. Audio-Post people have been doing muti-format delivery for the past two decades! it is not the issue people are making it out to be. BTW, you don't stop mixing in stereo.
I also watched this video and was shocked to see someone who felt a bit like me ... I'm a 4x Grammy nominated immersive artist and I'm soooo not on the bandwagon (even though I have 7.1.4 in my mix room. It seems to be all about me bucks and screw the creators... glad that people are beginning to wake up. ....oh yeah, he didn't even talk about the biggie ... Dolby royalties... this is what it's really about.
I agree 10,000%! The modern day recording studio is in people's basements/houses. At LEAST 75% of commercial studios 10 & 5 years ago are gone due to industry changes and Covid. The days of getting $50-100 Grand in lines of credit are gone. So most retailers & manufacturers of audio equipment aren't making the money they used to. Many commercial studios had failed at the end of Covid and we have to update to 192K for DVD production. Ummm NO, I don't do DVDs. Oh you have to update to Atmos for DVD.... Again NO I don't do DVDs. Along strolls a well known once a computer only manufacturer and gently says we want to take over from Spotify and be the leader of Music Streaming, and you have to give us Atmos mixes because... ummm we say so? I don't have $10k for an interface and speakers of a bare bones variety, I certainly don't have $50-60K to upgrade to what level I would if I had to... but I don't have to. Your average user listens to music on their phone... or car. How many High End Vehicles have Atmos? Not enough for my clients to pay more or switch anytime soon. As they say the Oil companies are invested in the car companies, and vice versa, Audio, software, speaker etc are all invested in each other and the money just isn't as plentiful as it once was. Power grab... yes but what do you expect from a once computer only manufacturer who's policy is when your computer is old, and we dictate that policy, just throw it out and buy a new one. Sorry I think that manufacturer needs to be thrown out and find another one. My .02 before taxes
I would also like to make a point, though it may not need to be made but for all of the record label executives reading this, musicians are your financial source. No music, no musicians, no business for you and no food on your dinner table. Artists like myself, have been exploited for decades. I'm glad to see that major studios are not an obstacle anymore when it comes to releasing your musical ideas out into the public. What do you think we were doing before recorded music came along? We were writing lead sheets in our bedrooms and living rooms. Who would have guessed?
To add to this I was deep into building a certified atmos room, with plans drawn top and equipment selected. Equipment cost was close to $80,000, and that's not counting building the room. I am a post production editor/colorist/audio house. When it came down to it a) studios are not interested in paying extra for atmos production. What they are saying is that they are only looking at post houses now that can do atmos.....for no extra charge. Basically you get the job at your older rates. I searched for months for an ROI and honestly, could not find with worked within a 5 year payback. b) The consumer will not pay anything else for it because it comes out of the front end. If they do end up paying for it, it will be in increased streaming costs. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.
@@CraigScottFrost Yes, however if the cost to "keep the lights on" is an extra investment of $20,000 - $50,000 then that's a bad business plan. Not many smaller studios can afford this pathway.
@@CraigScottFrost " it may not have the same sonic qualities" I have listened to the $10,000 system talked about and for me it is severely lacking in presence. Buying a more expensive is not "keeping up with the Jones's" it's about being able to take a mix and fully develop it. For atmos it is 100% about the nuences of the mix and unless you have the right balances in your equipment you are going to have issues when creating it and when it translates down. That being said, in my case I was building a system for converting soundtracks into atmos for theatrical distribution. Will a lesser system work for other types of audio studios, of course it will. There will be a difference however.
I love your channel and I agree with everything you’re saying I’ve been talking to my friends here in Nashville from the moment I caught wind of this Atmos thing months back and said that sounds like record labels, and all associated with the record business from equipment makers down the vehicle manufactures it covers the spectrum of those that have the big money, taking control back over the independent artist and independent studio and the industry as a whole
Damn I think you might be absolutely right, I've been thinking about this, it's not like we didn't have spacial audio for decades (just look at support in video games), this does look like a direction things might be going to - no dolby no big platform reach, make it prohibitively expensive for bands to do on their own and bam.
I agree with you 100% .... I did a lot a research myself and could only come to the same conclusion. The cost is way over the top, adds more work, training and difficulty to something that is already challenging. The return on your investment is little to nothing.
Attempting to eliminate home studios was my instinct. I figure major record labels would be onboard with this as well as there are many independent artists who do everything on their own.
Love it, I think they should leave the Atmos for the theaters, I think it's a cool idea and would be a lot of fun for the mixing engineer being it puts some art into the mixing engineers hands, but I have a living room that I converted into a studio/live studio for my personal use and I really don't want to fill it full of speakers everywhere, nor do I want to shell out the cash to do so, it's a great marketing scheme though, lol, gotta to love the greed on this planet, I love your show, I catch it every few days in between jamming, Roger in VT
I saw this a long while back. ATMOS will never take off with the consumer. They just don't care and will never spend the money. ATMOS will die a slow death. Artists just need to stand their ground and refuse. In the end this will weaken the record companies. I see this as their last ditch effort to save their business.
I already commented, but I want to add this. I had an expensive Onkyo/Infinity surround system for 20 years. I found that there is nothing on TV that is surround - only DVD, CD, etc. The surround was simulated, and it was kind of interesting sometimes. But you know what sounded the absolute best for music? Surround system doing STEREO in both front and back. That kicked ass. haha. Fake surround is fake surround. It is swimmy, smeared dookie. I turn Atmos OFF on all my devices because I can't stand spatial simulations. Great vid, Barry. Very relevant to everyone.
Great take on Atmos here, Barry. One thing not mentioned here about Apple that should be clear is this: the future of Apple Vision Pro (currently with spacial audio). I'm not a fan of VR/AR either, but here we can see how Apple, and others, want us to experience things in the future. Concert tickets with front row (or even on stage) access via VR and Atmos may be a thing in the future. I still think all of these things are entirely outside of what most people want or can afford. And it will all fail unless the market wants it at a price that is as affordable as consumer headphones are today. Keep the faith!
Don't forget--Atmos streaming will take up a lot more bandwidth, which costs $$. If the consumer (90% of which listens to music on earbuds) doesn't really want this, the streaming services will drop it . . .
Barry, Thanks for the video. As previously stated, I'm buying gear to provide ATMOS mixes to my clients in 2024. But... I'm still totally putting out stereo mixes and people are listening to them. This ATMOS craze is artificial. Also... I own an Apple M1 Mac which gives me the right to say Apple can take a long walk off of a short pier. I have to have a Mac in my studio for compatibility reasons but the Apple of 2011 is gone. Apple in 2023 is a horrible company. I hate that I have to use Apple products.
Thank god engineers and studio owners are talking about this. The general public will gain nothing from atmos. I get that it can be for great for movies or tv, or even gaming maybe, but even then only a small amount of people will ever benefit from it or appreciate it. The studio I used to work at just made an atmos room and are playing into the marketing, when most of their clients are artists bringing in a 2 track beat from youtube to rap over. And the owner, my former boss, thinks that one day all music will be mixed in atmos. Its ridiculous. Most music nowadays is made in small studios, no console, LR monitor setup. Different companies have been trying to get surround sound to catch on with people for decades now, and I don't think it will ever catch on with casual music listeners
The music industry should learn from its mistakes, but its tried to fool us into surround sound yet again! Also today there are a lot of home studio producers that drive the market, not some big shot has been producer. Not all of them are bad and you can learn a lot, but it's a different time. We like stereo, it has a sound, its manageable phase wise and affordable. Atmos does not fold to stereo, it sounds crap and this was for me the biggest oddity. If you mix using Logics spacial audio, its just messing with phase and adding effects like delay and reverb and sounds odd. Its no wonder the realisation has kicked in so quick. What I will say is it really showed up some of the RUclipsrs who are willing to sell out fast. I get it, you need to make money however this platform should be about creating trust first. I feel its broken my trust by some of the sellouts. Thankfully your channel is one I wont be unsubbing from as I agree 100% with you, sounds like the usual music industry grab trick. Question is who do we blame?
Why is it a question of "who"? The whole purpose of production in this society is profit-making. It's an impersonal imperative that drives crap like this, not some secret powerful cabal of greedy people.
@@in.der.welt.sein. Ultimately, yes, you're right. But that doesn't mean the bloodsuckers stop attempting it. And BTW, there's nothing secret about them. We all know who they are.
errr .... some of my best musical memories have been at live venues (big and small) with battered old amps / speakers, poor acoustics and audience noise. I stood or sat in the front, corners, next to the stage, in the bar !!! If music communicates to you in the environment you're in, it's good !!! Some of my favourite tracks are from the 60's, 70's and 80's. I danced, I got excited, I sang at the top of my voice... we had parties. Didn't give a hoot about Dolby (or even stereo) to be honest. In 2024, I'm sure the majority of people use ear buds, Bluetooth speakers or headphones.... We don't actively listen with friends so much now, we are in a streaming bubble. Super high quality sound is for the few, not the many. It's not compelling enough and yes tech evolved but they drip-feed us to extract max money from us. It is Greed! Put money into artist's creativity, production, promotion and spreading the good of music. We don't need Dolby, they want us to have it. Greed, it’s the modern disease.
Barry I have been around this industry since 12 years old . I am 68 years old. I Agree With You. I said it when I first heard about this. It is a industry grab. They have lost control and now they have found someone to join them , to attempt to get it back. I have a left and right ear. They hear great. Pan here and there and I am ok. Later bro. Oh I forgot, on some 2$ earbud.
I always welcome change and new stuff..i just bought focusrite 16 line and going dolby.. need to learn new stuff.. and surely will keep me busy for another 6 months than stick to same boring routine
Of course it's about the major labels trying to take back control. So all the independent artists need to unite and brainstorm how to keep the playing field level. And AI will be part of this. And I can't imagine all of the streaming platforms will require ATMOS. But thanks for the great video.
I’ve been sceptical about Atmos since I first heard about it. Then a few weeks ago my wife and I went to see Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.3 at our local multiplex that was showing the film in Atmos. At first I found it really jarring, but after a while I must say that it sounded really great, and probably enhanced the experience. So, for cinema I would say that it’s a good thing. That’s where it belongs. But do I want that same experience when I’m listening to my favourite records? Hell no!! It would be sheer sensory overload listening to that all the time. Am I prepared to shell out a load of bucks to have it in my home? Not a chance. Am I prepared to invest in that technology in my home studio? Haha, yeah right. I’ve put everyone I can afford into what I have. Atmos technology is so far beyond my financial means that it’s not even worth talking about. I came to the same conclusion as you Barry, as soon as I heard a rumour that Apple Music was planning to only accept music recorded in Dolby Atmos. This is a move by the big players in the music industry to regain their dominance and control. They want to shut out all the little guys, bedroom artists and home studio owners. It’s a hugely rectro active move and I hope that people will resist it. Trouble is the average consumer doesn’t see it from our perspective. They’re just hypnotised by the new shiny.
Hi Barry - once again, very interesting topic indeed. It was at the last Namm show that I decided I was going to get into Atmos, Because I was late coming to the troth with the whole digital movement in the first place, and it turned out to be a mistake that I had to rectify, and I’m glad I did. So I figured I want to be in as close to the ground floor as I can be with this Atmos thing. As it turns out I’m fortunate on just about every front (concerning Atmos )as a small studio owner. I have a 40 x 40 barn with a 24 foot lid, my mixing station is in the center of it all and I have floor to ceiling curtains around half of the interior. And while I don’t have a dozen or so matching speakers for an Atmos set up, I can create an Atmos environment with good quality speakers which I will have to learn how to correctly reference. But that said, I have the newer lynx I’O’s and they are Atmos compatible. Anyway, last week I got a call to do a session (I’m a guitarist) at Sunset Sound in Hollywood and the engineer was Steve Genewick. For those that don’t know him, he worked under Al Schmitt at Capitol Records for 20 years, and was, I believe the first engineer ever to do an Amos mix for Apple! He’s got stories, man! He told me that while at Capitol, someone walked in one day and said” here’s Dolby Atmos renderer you have a session in two weeks”. He had to learn it in two weeks! But anyway, what luck for me ! Perspective I gained from that day, convinced me that embracing the Atmos learning curve was something I had to absolutely do. So, The next day I bought the renderer, and now my Atmos journey is beginning. I’m not a betting man but I believe that this immersive technology is the way of the future. it’s only logical, really. For better or worse, power grab or not, I think it here to stay. I believe your theory about this is probably true, except I don’t believe that was the original intent. Just an opportunistic byproduct. Anyway, I have been listening to every Atmos mix I can get my hands on, and I have to say that some of the Atmos mixes have heard sound artificial ; not at all natural. i’m sure as the experience bar raises the working knowledge of how to avoid this will become rudimentary, but because you can experience Atmos immersion with just stereo headphones, (in other words, you don’t have to have seven or 10 speakers around you) to hear and feel it, that fact alone would seem to justify and legitimize this movement. But knowing as little as I know about it right now ( the beginning of my learning curve), I see a lot of potential for this. It is so much more than surroundsound. anyway that’s my (more than) two cents. I think everyone will be mixing with it in the future as or industry evolves. Keep up the good work, Barry! I really enjoy your down to earth take on all of these topics.
Don't these companies ever learn? Once a certain threshold is achieved, the average consumer doesn't care about audio quality. This is a population that listens through ear buds and phone speakers. Does anyone remember HD audio and "lossless" players? How about Blu-ray audio releases? Those can produce higher quality than CDs at 7.1 or more channels. . . does anyone know someone who buys them? The hard core audiophiles don't even want this crap. Just like when they tried forcing 3D TV on us, I don't think the big companies have thought this through.
I did see this video. Great points. The biggest thing that got me is how he said the record labels aren't paying for the twos mixes. See ya later atoms.
I posted exactly what you said in this video as a comment on one of your previous videos. I think Apply may have its own reasons, but I'm pretty sure the record companies are pushing it on their end to get the control back that they lost.
You have a good and very strong point here I think. Because to me it all didn't make any sense consumer and producerwise. But imo this might shine light on right subject. At least to me this makes most sense of everything I've heard Atmos so far. I'm with you on this!
I've seen Josh's video and have felt the same way. Agree 100,000% that it's a power grab and soon we may see "Apple Studios" popping up everywhere. This power grab has been happening to indie artists for some time now, so this makes a lot of sense
I had pretty much written off Atmos. But last night I it all made sense to me that generative AI for video and immersive will be a thing. Eventually, we will be able to prompt the AI to generate whatever we want before our eyes by just speaking. Spacial audio will be important to the music industry. Oh, you just have those dusty old stereo files. Let’s get something amazing for this.
Yeah this whole "Atmos & Spacial Audio" movement has left me feeling very uneasy for sometime now too. It all seems so "FORCED" into our lives like we have to have this or else. "Or Else What?".....some of us are very happy with hearing music in stereo and having wonderful experiences while doing it. I see your point Barry, they are shoving this down our throats so they can be back in the position of "GATE KEEPPER", of if you want your music heard it has to have this. Another roadblock between the artist and their audience, without having them (The Record Company) involved.
Please do NOT give in! I do have 5 Atmos systems, ranging from 9.2.6 in my living room to a couple of 7.1.2 systems on my boat... For MOVIES. I have never heard an Atmos music mix that sounded anywhere NEAR as good as a well mixed stereo track! When I listen to music I want it to come from the same number of speakers as I have EARS. (maybe plus a sub) You can't make my music sound more immersive by putting artists above or behind me! When I go to a concert the band is in front of me. Same for a bar. Keep the faith!
Apple is probably planning on releasing music and videos on they’re music app that can provide an immersive experience using their VR/AR headset, and on the way there they want to execute their power grad
I have seen many videos on that topic. Had a very heated discussion with someone on discord about atmos. I have the same view on this whole atmos thing, in some cases like movies it makes sense, in music not really and for home consumers most people do not have the money AND space to invest in such a setup anyway. Those companies always come up with some fancy new stuff, we have seen so many formats come and go in the end most of them never pushed through like they intended. For pro lvl engineers its also a cost factor.
I agree. I came to that conclusion a while back: Apple has a plan to ENFORCE Atmos compability with all the shit they host on their platform. Spotify is going to ENFORCE Atmos compatibility with all the stuff they feature on their playlists. These two platforms are invested in the Dolby technology and want to enforce this tech on ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE ON THEIR PLATFORMS. Atmos has been around as a technology for years prior to this moment. I started to see this funny little Dolby program on my computers a few years back. I thought it was just another interesting but completely superfluous way to program your personal listening environment at home. Hell, Microsoft OS and motherboard manufacturers offered Atmos funcionality on their products for the last few years and this was shit none of us asked for. It was bloatware and none of us knew what the fuck this stuff did or how it 'improved' what we were hearing on our PCs already. So we didn't use it. Fast forward to the last year and it seemed that suddenly, there was industry buzz about Atmos and that it was a Dolby product that was going to be endorsed by equipment manufacturers and big companies like Apple and Spotify. So...yeh. It's a coordinated move by players in the audio and music industry to pump shit up like back in the day: quad, 5.1, 7.1, 3-d goggles, etc... This will pass. I'm glad you're talking about it bro. Most of us have already moved on from it and just decided it's something we don't need.
You're absolutely right! As far as I can see this is just a way to push new products to the unsuspecting consumer. atmos compatible speakers, atmos compatible headphones, pay extra to listen in atmos, and don't forget the atmos compatible iToilet! It's like you say, this will pass, it's never going to be more than just a fad, and once the "techy" type people stop spending their money on it, atmos will be forgotten. Remember, back in the early 2000s, when you "had to have" a 7.1 sound system to watch your DVD movies at home? I remember! And I also remember how just a few years later no one was using those sound systems anymore. At best some people kept using them in stereo only. Heck, I even remeber tv channels making a huge fuss about transmiting some shows in dolby surround. Where is that now? As an audio professional, I've never had a client interested in dolby atmos, and honestly, most have never heard of it. As a consumer, stereo is perfectly fine, even a lot of mono recordings sound great as they are. Honestly this stuff has no practical use outside of ceneman theaters.
I also dont like apple pushing it that hard but then again if you look at their new product line with vision pro I can see where they’re coming from and what their vision is. This is just typical apple imho they did the same with headphones jacks etc. we as audio engineers really need to rally and build our own lobby to educate consumers and the industry on what actually is important.
I upgraded to Dolby Atmos and I have to say it’s been amazing. I have many many clients asking me for Dolby atmos mixes, but having said that I found my niche clientele who really wants those type of mixes. Also I didn’t understand the part where the distributors charge more. They haven’t charged me more from my experience. Not sure where you are located but here in LA it’s very common and a big percentage of artists I work with always ask for Dolby atmos as well. Not only that but so many opportunities came to me for movies mixing and I gotta say for me it’s been a game changer. I studied this technology for years. A lot of people don’t know but it’s been around for many years and I was indecisive as well. Lastly it also helps that I get gear at a pretty good price. You don’t need the big expensive speaker (which is what causes the price to go up) but for a full set up I got mine for under 8-9k and because of that I’ve landed huge projects. I do agree with you about consumers not having anything to check the mixes on, but apple pro max are great and also there are many home solutions for Dolby atmos.
The part about distributors it that it costs artists more on distrokid, etc.. to release an Atmos version. It's currently an upcharge of $26.99 per song.
From an avid consumer's perspective: I just got a pair of Sonos Era 300s & Atmos mixes do actually sound fantastic! But if the music I want is just in stereo it's not like Atmos isn't 100% backwards compatible, so I feel safe. I would pay & already have paid extra to own Atmos mixes (eg the album "Severed Surround System" by Severed Heads on Bandcamp) - and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one willing to do so. I really love Atmos. Even though the Sonos Atmos speakers cost me AU$1500, I have no regrets whatsoever.
We are at the very start ofAtmos Music. When I hear audio engineers saying they were asked if they could do audio mixes. And there answers are obviously yes. Then they go buy the speakers and start mixing . Then using stems made to be in stereo. No wonder it is so hit and miss. I have a kali audio 7.1.4 setup. I love panning so for me this is awesome. But I am doing sound design and my own music started for Immersive audio. I am fortunate enough to have the time to experiment. You can use any audio interface the has 12 outs. 7.1.4. I do understand your point but in my opinion immersive is here to stay.
This is why Colt’s initial video pissed me off. Just assuming this is going to become the new norm and broadcasting that to your audience as fact is awful for aspiring DIY engineers.
Hi Berry, Thanks for doing these videos, very informative. While I watch lots of these types of videos for information I am rarely compelled to leave comments because I don't want to sound like I'm ranting on the Internet. Okay so I have decades long background on "3D" audio.. or what is now referred to as "immersive". What I am about to write pertains mostly to the practical aspects of this. So I really think the driving force behind this is mostly hardware manufacturers and sales and Dolby licensing. It's as if they got together and agreed that pushing this would be good for business... their business. Okay so what about the practical side of this? One has realize what is really happening in this Atmos pipeline. So as the studio you now have to have this speaker array rig or for most home production guys it means putting on headphones and using the "renderer". What does the renderer do you ask, it uses volume and panning with lots of channels like we are used to then it adds HRTF to emulate the sound of any particular channels in being placed somewhere in space in relation to the listener. HRTF = Head Related Transfer Function. Now HRTF is not new, this has been researched and developed since the 90s. As a matter of fact, most developers of HRTF uses a database from MIT research that has recorded impulses from different azimuth and elevations to produce a set of coefficients that are used in conjunction with FFT to render the sound to a certain location in space. Us studio guys have encountered this sort of processing in IRs for example. The real problem with HRTF is that it is perceived differently by different people. If your head happens to be the same dimensions as the dummy head used for measurements it might work relatively well for you. Okay so the renderer will do a good job rendering the tracks to an speaker array... after all in this case you are using the same HRTF you know and love that is your head. However when you consider most listeners won't have speaker arrays, in this case the renderer employs HRTF to place those sounds in space. So these days I would say music is most often played on smartphones using onboard speakers or in headphones. I don't have the actual data to say what the percentage is but I would argue it is huge. So then lets take a big step back and look at this as a whole. The studio provides an Atmos mix that is over 1GB (I know I have done one of these mixes HAHA), it goes to the server of the service provider. The service provider now will most likely pre render a stereo stream to distribute per stream request when the playback device is 2 channel... it probably pre renders a few popular formats. So then all this gets streamed to the listener's phone as a stereo track. Humm this seems particularly unpractical. Okay so lets listen to the stream, I would bet unless they studio simply encoded the left and right channel of the stereo mix to the "channel bed" the mix will sound less full and lacking in "glue". When you take into account how much of the glue comes from the interaction of the 2 channels in the final mix bus and mastering from the EQs, compressors, limiters and such... now all this is missing. Dolby has provided a mastering tool with compressors.. maybe ties to all channels... but it suffices to say this pales in comparison to what we would typically put on the mix bus and mastering. So practically speaking, exponentially more bits has to be delivered for a lesser final output to the consumer. There is another interesting angle I was trying to do with this. Remember when MTV came out and songs with videos got played while songs without videos didn't.. duh there's no video. This could be an angle for a less well known artist perhaps to get on Apple playlist for exposure while other artists without an Atmos mix can't get on. So, these are the 2 angles I have considered. It seems this will really benefit the manufacturers of hardware from studio gear to server farms full of data to Dolby licensing. The consumer will get a crappier product unless they have an Atmos speaker array. Really... Atmos was designed for movies not for music. The business people got together and the sales people will try to sell it to the consumers as a product they need... see Atmos logo on all the home theatre stuff :) I think it sucks HAHA!
When some of the You Tubers started getting gaga about Atmos I just didn't buy it those folks lost credibility in my eyes. I watched as people started drinking the Kool Aide. In the end most people only have two ears. I still enjoy a hifi mono recording. Barry, I think your final assessment is spot on. The big boys want to get the control back.
I recently watched a picture in the theater that was ATMOS equipped and found that there was only ONE reason for ATMOS to be in the theater. Besides that, I feel that even surround (5.1) for music is more than a bit gimmicky in MOST situations. The late, great Glenn Meadows, Nashville mastering engineer, in relation to 5.1, said that he'd had a difficult enough time convincing his wife to agree to TWO speakers in his living room... there was no way she would agree to any more than that! ATMOS is a technology that works best for the motion picture format. Someone will come up with a new technology that will make this work (and sound terrible, too) in a sound bar... so why be so excited about it? I once witnessed a 5.1 remix of music that was originally recorded on a 1" 8 track (ELP)... being split out to 5 speakers. It was cool, but kind of a waste. Now with masters consisting of a minimum of 100 tracks, it makes sense to have more speakers. However... overall it's kinda dumb. Good songs only need a guitar or a piano and a vocal. Terrible songs won't benefit from an increased track count of any size because the song SUCKS!! In many ways, it appears that ATMOS is here so that Dolby Labs can remain relevant. Who knows?
Barry, here's what I know, from over 60 years of recording. The Dolby Labs business model is to create a gimmick. license the HELL out of it and hold us all HOSTAGE. Dolby 'A' was a bomb, but we were all STUCK paying for it. Same with Dolby 'B', etc., etc. And this 'ATMOS' nonsense is just another gimmick that's following the Dolby business model that's worked so well in the past. Best regards, Bill P.
if we’re forced to mix in atmos to be distributed, lots of local studios are just going to buy the cheapest compatible interfaces and consumer grade speaker setup just to make ‘alright’ atmos mixes. or simply duplicate their left-right channels to all speaker and bounce it as atmos
Spent my whole life in this industry from on-air to audio production, performing live, mixing, editing, etc, while being as much a “consumer” and so-called audiophile as anyone all the while. I don’t know if I’m about the calculated forcing down our throats idea yet, but I’ve been listening to this evolution in real time. I saw yours and Seawell’s video and I feel the frustration. Atmos mixes are amazing when they are done well. The problem is, Dolby Atmos mixing is an art. If it’s not done beautifully and artistically, it can be downright AWFUL! The bad Atmos mixes streaming today have been allowed to go live with no quality standards whatsoever. The discrepancy in overall loudness mastering from one track to the next on a playlist alone would be something stringently policed in the same platforms’ stereo world and would be unacceptable. Personally as creators and consumers I feel like we missed a potentially great ride on the 5.1 bus. There are beautiful, emotional, impeccably mixed works of art from the late 90s through 2007 and still today from Bob Clearmountain, Steven Wilson, Eliot Scheiner and the like that not only have immersive channels but also have 24bit/96k quality in all six channels. Very few people had proper setups to enjoy them back then but they do now. Obviously we didn’t have streaming or bandwidth until recently. Now that we have the bandwidth and the tech to stream music at a high bitrate, we/they are instead opting to deliver 16bit/48mbps “lossy” 9 or 11 channel Atmos content to the masses before the “art” of Atmos mixing is even a thing! Even established skilled 5.1 mixing engineers have to learn a whole new platform. And those people were few and far enough between already. I feel like true Atmos mixing engineers are artists giving music a new level of audio production, performance and experience. And that art should only be from the best of the best. In a rush to get Atmos content, the platforms, not just Apple, are accepting VERY low standards. On a really top level system, bad Atmos mixes are quite obvious upon first listen. Meanwhile, like you said, the gear manufacturers are eating it up. I’m now working in the home theater component manufacturing business and I hear a demand and a resurgence of multichannel enthusiasts that you may not be aware of. They’re there. When someone is properly “wowed” by a correct Atmos mix on a tuned, Atmos compatible system, on SPEAKERS (not binaural or on headphones) it can be life changing and make someone immediately drop $40K to have it for himself. I’ve seen it happen. The Atmos music landscape at the moment on the streaming platforms is littered with bad, unprofessional mixes with no loudness or quality restrictions and absolutely horrible categorization and search functions that are resulting in many “meh” responses from potential consumers. That’s where the problems that you and Mr. Seawell describe kick in. I have hope. I’ve had premium Apple and Tidal subscriptions and a meticulous multichannel listening room for a long time now and I hear the junkyard getting slowly cleaned up literally as we speak. The searching and categorizing on both platforms is still a big mess. I see more of a scenario of many carts getting way in front of many horses more than I see some sort of calculated conspiracy. But that’s just me. Thanks for bringing it up.
Wow Barry, this is such a nice surprise! I very much appreciate you sharing my video with your audience. I think you raised great points in what you took away from it.
Since making the video, I’ve wondered more about how this most recent push got started. Best I can tell, it’s based on the rumor/fear that you’ll have to provide an Atmos mix to be playlisted on Apple Music. I own an indie record label/publishing company with a direct distribution deal with Apple. I mentioned that because they have indie label support channels there that aren’t available to the general public. So, I asked Apple about that requirement for playlists and I plan on making a follow up video soon discussing what I found out so stay tuned! 😁
Keep up the great work with your channel Barry! I appreciate your courage and willingness to speak to these issues. I really enjoyed your review of the Slate VSX in particular! It was an honor to be mentioned in this video, thanks again.
I like you both guys but I think you're wrong : Anyone as artists can create his Atmos mix with headphone + Logic for ZERO so you don't need pro studio to do it and especially if tomorrow DSP plan to ask for Atmos obligatory mix. So why being so upset and scared by changes ? Your only issue has studio owner is that you don't want to invest in an Expensive Atmos certified studio and I can understand that, but it doesn't mean Atmos is Bad. So we will see in the future traditional Stereo Studio and an other side specialized Atmos studio co existing (or studio with both tech) and I don't see any issue with that, you said yourself your customers doesn't want it so where is the issue ? You can keep your Stereo Setup or jump/add Atmos or moved to only Atmos only by selling your existing gears, everybody is free to take its road but don't blame Atmos all days.
🙏
@@sound4label there’s no fear, I’d gladly do it if it made sense. It really boils down to 2 things for me.
1. The delivery method for the vast majority of end users(binaural stereo render) is not good & in most cases sounds inferior to the stereo mix in my opinion.
2. There’s no clear path for indie artists & studios to increase revenue from it.
Change doesn’t always equate to progress.
@@SeawellStudios EXACTLY !!!!
THOSE ARE THE POINTS !
@@gkmixing sure I can speak to that because I do have an analog compressor on the 2 buss. I did it because I think it sounds better and I really enjoy bringing the sense of touch into the mixing process. I work faster with hardware. It’s a personal preference and I’ve also spent times where I mixed all ITB. The reason why I don’t think that’s the most relevant example in this particular discussion is that I’m not putting out videos making people feel like if they don’t get an analog compressor on the mix buss they are going to miss out.
I’m not criticizing Atmos itself, in some cases I actually enjoy the new options it brings during mixing.
What I am criticizing is the push that feels fabricated to me(hype doesn’t match demand). We don’t have a high quality way to deliver it to the end user(binaural is a mixed bag). Lastly, I don’t think it’s a good investment at this point for indie artists or smaller studios.
IF the binaural rendering and/or Apple’s spatial audio greatly improves and they start paying better royalties then I’ll be much more interested.
I’ve worked in the music industry since 1977, recording, mixing and mastering. Hell, I watched quadraphonic come and go while I was in high school. I mix albums not movies, anything other than stereo is a big, fat joke to me. Atmos is just another non-important distraction to making and enjoying quality music. Great channel btw.❤
My dad had quadrophonic stereo, moody blues sounded awesome, metallica and pantera did not
I think this is the wrong mindset. We are very clearly at a crossroads where consumption is very different than the eras you mention. We are also at the start of consumer demand for more immersive content. These two things can not be argued away because it is not going away. Year on year, immersive content is becoming more main stream and expected across industries. When done correctly, yes it cost more(everything does these days) but you are delivered tradional stereo and what ever immersive delivery spec per said platforms requirements. This comes down to what format will become the immersive audio standard. Dolby has the foot up because of their install base and hardware compatibily. Immersive expericense are also happening a lot more in the live sound and installation world. Seeing your comment reminds me of old dionos dragging their feet saying everything is a fad untill they have to look elsewhere for work. Some of the greatest hits, CD's, Daw's, MP3, Stream services, Surround Sound in homes etc.
been in the industry since the early 90's and I agree. if basic 5.1 surround didnt stick, how is this monstrosity going to?
I luv stereo but id like to write and record hard rock music in quad. If thats toi complex which it seems to be id love to learn all the stereo tricks
@@firewerk66 basic 5.1? please do explain. 5.1 is now a subset of channel layouts and still a requirement many places. For music didn't stay because there was no support for it. Immersive is a different beast.
Nailed it! Finally somebody saying what I've been thinking all along about this!
Same here.
I worked for a major publishing company in LA once upon a time in Hollywood. You will know their name. I remember when one of my closest friends was hired by another well known major publishing company. The first thing they told him was “You’re on our side now”. You see my friend and I prior to this work were in a band together. In other words, the music companies looked upon the artists as a product where they could sell and maximize profits. Nothing has changed with that mindset.
I've been making music in my bedroom for a while now, but I'm only just now starting to make music that I'm genuinely proud of and want to share with the world. Nothing brings me more joy than being able to make my own music at home. It's all I have to offer. It would destroy me if I'm no longer able to do so.
Same
Same here. But it's not going to happen. Other streaming platforms will emerge to fill the void left by these bloodsuckers.
Same here also
Conspiracy theorist? No! Barry. It's TRUTH you are speaking sir. I get sick of that damn label being pushed on anyone and everyone that has an opinion or ideology that is not that of the mainstream/common way of thinking, which is of course the exact reason the term was created. But it can't be a theory when history has proven your philosophy on the subject many times over. Job well done sir. And I applaud you for having the ⚽️🏀 to get in front of the world and speak your honest opinion on a controversial topic while knowing its sure to cause waves. 👊
I thought it was a great video! I watched it right away when it came out. I am a full time freelance mixing and mastering engineer. I make my full time living off mixing. Since all this started I have had ONE client request Atmos and one briefly ask me about it. In all this time ONE client asked. The ones I spoke to about it said unless they are forced to adopt Atmos they don't have any interest. I then asked some of my family and friends about Atmos. A few friends said they thought it was cool but they said at the end of the day it all sound pretty much to the same to them. The rest of my friends and family looked at me like I had ten heads and no clue what Atmos was and when I described it to them they all said they would NEVER invest that much just to listen to music. The bottom line is the end consumer doesn't care and doesn't want it. Until that changes it will all be a fad and hype. Atmost is SUPER cool for movies, games, and tv but for music, it just doesn't make any sense!
Apple is also out of touch with how the music industry really works. It's not the 90s anymore. Most music is mixed in bedrooms by people just like me now. The day of the big studios being king is over. I mix close to 150 projects a year and so do most of my friends. They don't understand the people who work on a majority of the music released don't have the space or money to set up an Atmos rig.
If I have to do it I will because this is my job but I doubt I will end up putting a full Atmos rig in my studio. It just doesn't make sense here. The layout would be wacky but at the end of the day I don't think it's going to happen. I think this time next year Atmos will be in the past.
0:56 "If it's so compelling, we wouldn't need it forced on us!" Spot on! 👍
I work at an well respected indie mastering studio here in Brooklyn NYC. We're generally busy and always booking sessions. We even kept busy during the worst pandemic days. None of are clients are interested. Exactly one client of mine asked about it over a year ago. And my boss (whose studio it is, and who has a lot more clients than me) said that no one has asked him about Atmos at all. This truly is the corpration shoving it down everyone's throat. I don't understand how it could be made a standard if the artists don't want it. I've heard some consumers say they like it though. I don't think they care that much about it, they just like something they've heard on headphones. That doesn't seem like enough to justify the expense.
Josh's video is great. Atmos and Apple can shove it
I commented this on your previous video and I stand by it.
Atmos is just the new gate for the gatekeepers to stand guard on. You are 100% correct
"if it´s so comepelling why it´s been forced down our throats" nothing else to add.
I was never convinced at all by atmos for music. Not in the slightest. Saw the video last week. Best on the subject. He brought up some great points about consumers.
Agreed all. How many people are going to set up a home Atmos theatre. It’s hype. It’s absolutely absurd.
Atmos for video games is really good as you need to know what's creeping up around you, but for music Stereo just hits harder. Stereo hits harder than surround in the car (old acura had 5.1 and I always preferred stereo for music) but for use cases where "space awareness" is needed I do prefer atmos.
Have you ever heard an Atmos music mix in a home speaker system? People used to think mono hit harder too, before stereo was jammed down our throats by the….movie business.
@@joewhip9303 That's entirely untrue. No comparison, really.
@@TroubadourMusic that was hyperbole for effect. It is true that stereo was developed for the movies. And there was pushback back in the day against stereo in the home, another speaker, new electronics, etc. history is just repeating itself. You still have mono devotees today.
I was a fan of Apple for 15 years. I’ve been needing to update my computer for some time now. When I found out that audio interfaces that run via FireWire are no longer compatible with Mac OS Ventura, it made me sick. Now Apple is forcing mixes to be in Atmos in order to be on playlists…one word…disgusting.
Makes me sick, and the worst thing that Apple has done in a long time is to remove the headphone jack from iPhones and other devices.
That's not just Apple though. I recently switched back to Mac's after many years on PC's. One of the reasons for the switch was it was getting harder to find a reliable firewire PCI card that actually worked (and had driver support). As much as it pains all of us, firewire is pretty much dead. You may still have gear and and OS that supports it, but the development ceased years ago. Best you can do is lock the system down, or move on to USB variants. There are plenty of videos out there showing what can be done with USB (and why FW isn't necessary) . Hell, I skipped Thunderbolt too. I'm an RME user and USB has never limited me at all.
How, we’re talking about 20 years old system.
Amen Barry. When the smaller studios can’t keep up, the artists are forced to turn to the record companies to cover their mix costs, and then the cycle we had in the 60’s through the 90’s starts all over.
Well said, I believe the biggest thing is this is to push out the independent music scene where the major labels have way more control.
@CraigScottFrost I'll definitely be handing my money to the pros to do atmos mixes for me. It kinda sucks but I accept it as an artist. To me, getting my music mixed in atmos in the future is not really an audio thing, but it is part of the marketing budget. If you have your song in an almost mix, it might get seen more than other artist's songs in apple music. I still have a ton of research to do, but it really is the wild west.
@@CraigScottFrost great points! I'll definitely consider that. I'm still working on getting great stereo mixed and really just building out my studio. But it's a great plan to hear how it will sound
spot on, barry. j.
It’s very well known that, historically, record labels are extremely late to the party when it comes to every single significant technological advance that has ever happened in recorded music. They get thrown into the technical dust and have to fight their way back over the next decade.
Notable events that many here might be aware of: the move from phonograph to tape, the move from tape to CD and the move from physical to streaming. They’re very well aware of their own history. They once had a big meeting to discuss their failure of the streaming transition (there’s a book by John Seabrook that talks a little about this meeting).
I think what happened this time is that they overcompensated on a massive level. Meaning they saw some evidence that Atmos had POTENTIAL to be the next big technical advance and went ALL IN….and then got stuck when it didn’t catch fire like they thought it could. They have to push it now because they don’t have any other choice. They totally overplayed while desperately trying not to underplay.
I think you’ve hit it right on the head. Record companies have been ripping people off the entire time they have existed, and they have NEVER known what they’re doing as far as WHO and WHAT to release. I worked in pre-Internet Radio. The record companies would send us new music every week, but for every hit tune, there were at least 20 that you’d NEVER even play - either on your station, or at home! Then, WHO has the money to buy the necessary equipment and have their house torn up just to install the SPEAKERS (never mind anything else) for an Atmos playback-only system that’s made to Dolby specifications? I’ve heard Atmos in movie theaters, and it’s pretty amazing. But if nobody told you a movie had Atmos sound, would you really notice? Or even CARE? To me, it’s just not that big a difference whether a film has or doesn’t have Atmos sound. Sure, it’s clever technology. But if a movie is good, it’s good, and if it’s bad, it’s bad, regardless of the sound system used. And I agree with David Dunne (elsewhere in these Comments), who says he was never convinced that Atmos for music was needed. We are issued only TWO ears. So why do we need a 15.1 or 7.1 system for listening? Especially if Atmos is supposed to work in HEADPHONES? I’ve been mixing in plain old stereo since the age of 12, and it has always worked just fine!
Very nice point my friend..
It’s a redistribution of power to get those home studios to either go broke or give up and let the big boys with bigger budgets scream, “We’re relevant again.”😂
Thanks Barry…. What a great informative review. My focus is on the music and the enjoyment.. I really enjoy all your recommendations and guidance.
I'm going to start by saying that I have a Dolby Atmos studio that conforms to spec. From an audio perspective, I love Atmos. It opens up mixes and is like a breath of fresh air to a lot of catalog material being remixed. The audio itself is one subject. That being said, the marketing push (i.e. requirement now) from Apple and others regarding Atmos mixes is definitely a power grab, no question about it. Stereo was never "licensed". It was a natural outgrowth of the technology of the time. It became a "de-facto" standard. Musically, it is the most popular reproduction format and doesn't require additional subscriptions or licenses to listen. THIS is where it starts to get all "conspiracy". It's all about the licensing, and getting people to pay a subscription (of course) to listen to Atmos content on their devices. And this might be in the form of a software add on or update, or a different subscription you have to have, or whatever - but I believe that is the ultimate goal.
Technically, you can deliver a stereo mix through an Atmos formatted deliverable. Just because you can send stuff to 12 speakers doesn't mean you have to. But that doesn't address the fact that Atmos deliverables are now being required no matter what, and you can't say shit about it. Dolby is becoming the Live Nation/Ticketmaster of audio, it seems. And what a shame, because Dolby used to have a more decent reputation than being basically acting like a mobster now.
the most important lesson some of these companies don't seem to learn, or forget easily, is how much of a kick in the teeth this ends up being to them after they do all of this work to ruin their reputations with consumers.
Thank you for finally saying what needs to be said. Yes! This is by design and the following is what I posted on another channel regarding Atmos.
This to me sounds like yet another way of gatekeeping and eliminating the competition. You touched on it very briefly that it probably flew over our heads without many realizing.
For the longest, an artist and their laptop was all that’s needed to make a song and publish it on music streamers. Now! Big Tech has colluded with Big Electronics Biz who have access to cheap labor in producing the consumer products inexpensively.
Who’s affected by this? The entry level aspiring engineer making mixes for free or close to free trying to make a name. Also, the artist that has not been “chosen” from the big bad a$$ record label to make art.
I suppose we’ll all see each other in 5-10 years from now when Atmos Production is affordable to the entry level people.
I truly feel saddened for the youth; owning property is quickly becoming out of reach because big investment firms like Black Rock, Vanguard and others are buying over market price. And now, for those who are trying to make it in the music industry/business are being pushed out because a bunch of Tech Firms and Electronics industry have made the production means out of reach. But freedom I suppose. Let us all go enjoy new school surround sound aka Dolby Atmos. FTP!
You make some great points, Barry. Thanks for giving us your opinion. I watched Josh's video too, and it was great.
thanks for the heads up on the direction we are being herded.
Both of you have great takes on the subject.
Your right! They don't like the fact that people can actually deliver a almost pro recording right from the home. Nah they don't like one bit.
And like a lot of us have said over the years, no artists, no money or dinner for the record labels.
Great vid! You are spot on! It’s all about shutting the small business people down, and having corporations control everything. That includes AI/Robots, etc… THEY want all this set up by 2030. THEY want AI and Algorithms to be the music “creators”, and not us humans.
I’m never planning to go Atmos. I couldn’t care less how good it may be. There’s always been those in our community who have resisted the change and continue to this day. Just consider all the people who are recording analog and on porta studios to this very day! Certainly not a majority but a significant number of our community for sure. I suspect there are those of us who will follow a similar suit and continue as usual. And in this free and open market, if Spotify and others refuse our old school mixes, another streaming platform will emerge because that’s the American way.
Very well said.
Absolutely.
sure, but it sure doesn't hurt to learn how it works and what you can and can't do with it.
@@finder2267 Depends on what it's going to cost you in terms of time and money. And how are you going to learn with out the costly rig involved? I would rather continue to refine my skills as a normal stereo mixing engineer.
@@piscesman54 I would learn the tools. The cost is very minimal. You do not need new monitors or a new interface. Grab a demo, and try it out with cans. Done! Going forward people doing music are going to really have to change the way they think when comes to deliverables. Audio-Post people have been doing muti-format delivery for the past two decades! it is not the issue people are making it out to be. BTW, you don't stop mixing in stereo.
2 ears, 2 channels- a perfect match.
Well said 👏❤
Thank you for the valuable perspective!
I also watched this video and was shocked to see someone who felt a bit like me ... I'm a 4x Grammy nominated immersive artist and I'm soooo not on the bandwagon (even though I have 7.1.4 in my mix room. It seems to be all about me bucks and screw the creators... glad that people are beginning to wake up.
....oh yeah, he didn't even talk about the biggie ... Dolby royalties... this is what it's really about.
I agree with you Barry, they want to get rid of all the home studios.
Lotta great points made for sure
I agree 10,000%! The modern day recording studio is in people's basements/houses. At LEAST 75% of commercial studios 10 & 5 years ago are gone due to industry changes and Covid. The days of getting $50-100 Grand in lines of credit are gone. So most retailers & manufacturers of audio equipment aren't making the money they used to. Many commercial studios had failed at the end of Covid and we have to update to 192K for DVD production. Ummm NO, I don't do DVDs. Oh you have to update to Atmos for DVD.... Again NO I don't do DVDs. Along strolls a well known once a computer only manufacturer and gently says we want to take over from Spotify and be the leader of Music Streaming, and you have to give us Atmos mixes because... ummm we say so?
I don't have $10k for an interface and speakers of a bare bones variety, I certainly don't have $50-60K to upgrade to what level I would if I had to... but I don't have to. Your average user listens to music on their phone... or car. How many High End Vehicles have Atmos? Not enough for my clients to pay more or switch anytime soon. As they say the Oil companies are invested in the car companies, and vice versa, Audio, software, speaker etc are all invested in each other and the money just isn't as plentiful as it once was. Power grab... yes but what do you expect from a once computer only manufacturer who's policy is when your computer is old, and we dictate that policy, just throw it out and buy a new one. Sorry I think that manufacturer needs to be thrown out and find another one. My .02 before taxes
I would also like to make a point, though it may not need to be made but for all of the record label executives reading this, musicians are your financial source. No music, no musicians, no business for you and no food on your dinner table. Artists like myself, have been exploited for decades. I'm glad to see that major studios are not an obstacle anymore when it comes to releasing your musical ideas out into the public. What do you think we were doing before recorded music came along? We were writing lead sheets in our bedrooms and living rooms. Who would have guessed?
I told somebody this same thing the other day. Completely agree.
Much to think about...
Money is a hell of a drug. Was thinking the same stuff when i watched his vid
To add to this I was deep into building a certified atmos room, with plans drawn top and equipment selected. Equipment cost was close to $80,000, and that's not counting building the room. I am a post production editor/colorist/audio house. When it came down to it a) studios are not interested in paying extra for atmos production. What they are saying is that they are only looking at post houses now that can do atmos.....for no extra charge. Basically you get the job at your older rates. I searched for months for an ROI and honestly, could not find with worked within a 5 year payback.
b) The consumer will not pay anything else for it because it comes out of the front end. If they do end up paying for it, it will be in increased streaming costs.
It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.
@@CraigScottFrost Yes, however if the cost to "keep the lights on" is an extra investment of $20,000 - $50,000 then that's a bad business plan. Not many smaller studios can afford this pathway.
@@CraigScottFrost " it may not have the same sonic qualities" I have listened to the $10,000 system talked about and for me it is severely lacking in presence. Buying a more expensive is not "keeping up with the Jones's" it's about being able to take a mix and fully develop it. For atmos it is 100% about the nuences of the mix and unless you have the right balances in your equipment you are going to have issues when creating it and when it translates down.
That being said, in my case I was building a system for converting soundtracks into atmos for theatrical distribution. Will a lesser system work for other types of audio studios, of course it will. There will be a difference however.
I love your channel and I agree with everything you’re saying I’ve been talking to my friends here in Nashville from the moment I caught wind of this Atmos thing months back and said that sounds like record labels, and all associated with the record business from equipment makers down the vehicle manufactures it covers the spectrum of those that have the big money, taking control back over the independent artist and independent studio and the industry as a whole
Damn I think you might be absolutely right, I've been thinking about this, it's not like we didn't have spacial audio for decades (just look at support in video games), this does look like a direction things might be going to - no dolby no big platform reach, make it prohibitively expensive for bands to do on their own and bam.
Food for thought.
I agree with you 100% .... I did a lot a research myself and could only come to the same conclusion. The cost is way over the top, adds more work, training and difficulty to something that is already challenging. The return on your investment is little to nothing.
Agreed. Great insignt sir.
Saw the same episode by Josh. Atmos is one the way to large scale canceling. Felt that way to me from the beginning.
Barry I agree 100%, I Said it before in you first video taking about it.
Yes Barry! Right on!
Attempting to eliminate home studios was my instinct. I figure major record labels would be onboard with this as well as there are many independent artists who do everything on their own.
Love it, I think they should leave the Atmos for the theaters, I think it's a cool idea and would be a lot of fun for the mixing engineer being it puts some art into the mixing engineers hands, but I have a living room that I converted into a studio/live studio for my personal use and I really don't want to fill it full of speakers everywhere, nor do I want to shell out the cash to do so, it's a great marketing scheme though, lol, gotta to love the greed on this planet, I love your show, I catch it every few days in between jamming, Roger in VT
Very good points but I’m still practicing with some Atmos headphones lol
I saw this a long while back. ATMOS will never take off with the consumer. They just don't care and will never spend the money. ATMOS will die a slow death. Artists just need to stand their ground and refuse. In the end this will weaken the record companies. I see this as their last ditch effort to save their business.
For movie mixing sure but audio mixing for the average consumer, I have no fear. Stereo is here to stay.
I purchased a few 5.1 music mixes with an open mind, and with very few exceptions, I just simply prefer stereo.
Bravo Berry!
This is all part of Apple's bet on AR/VR being the future of entertainment. We'll see how this plays out with consumers
Thought of this too, it seems they really want to push their headset.
I already commented, but I want to add this.
I had an expensive Onkyo/Infinity surround system for 20 years. I found that there is nothing on TV that is surround - only DVD, CD, etc. The surround was simulated, and it was kind of interesting sometimes. But you know what sounded the absolute best for music? Surround system doing STEREO in both front and back. That kicked ass. haha. Fake surround is fake surround. It is swimmy, smeared dookie. I turn Atmos OFF on all my devices because I can't stand spatial simulations.
Great vid, Barry. Very relevant to everyone.
I just got my studio the way I like it and it wasn't cheep and now this Crap . You are so so Right about this , I hope people wise up.
Right on the money Barry, and I'm having a hard time not gloating about being right about this from the beginning 🤓
Great take on Atmos here, Barry. One thing not mentioned here about Apple that should be clear is this: the future of Apple Vision Pro (currently with spacial audio). I'm not a fan of VR/AR either, but here we can see how Apple, and others, want us to experience things in the future. Concert tickets with front row (or even on stage) access via VR and Atmos may be a thing in the future. I still think all of these things are entirely outside of what most people want or can afford. And it will all fail unless the market wants it at a price that is as affordable as consumer headphones are today. Keep the faith!
Don't forget--Atmos streaming will take up a lot more bandwidth, which costs $$. If the consumer (90% of which listens to music on earbuds) doesn't really want this, the streaming services will drop it . . .
Barry, Thanks for the video. As previously stated, I'm buying gear to provide ATMOS mixes to my clients in 2024. But... I'm still totally putting out stereo mixes and people are listening to them. This ATMOS craze is artificial. Also... I own an Apple M1 Mac which gives me the right to say Apple can take a long walk off of a short pier. I have to have a Mac in my studio for compatibility reasons but the Apple of 2011 is gone. Apple in 2023 is a horrible company. I hate that I have to use Apple products.
Thank god engineers and studio owners are talking about this. The general public will gain nothing from atmos. I get that it can be for great for movies or tv, or even gaming maybe, but even then only a small amount of people will ever benefit from it or appreciate it. The studio I used to work at just made an atmos room and are playing into the marketing, when most of their clients are artists bringing in a 2 track beat from youtube to rap over. And the owner, my former boss, thinks that one day all music will be mixed in atmos. Its ridiculous. Most music nowadays is made in small studios, no console, LR monitor setup. Different companies have been trying to get surround sound to catch on with people for decades now, and I don't think it will ever catch on with casual music listeners
The music industry should learn from its mistakes, but its tried to fool us into surround sound yet again! Also today there are a lot of home studio producers that drive the market, not some big shot has been producer. Not all of them are bad and you can learn a lot, but it's a different time. We like stereo, it has a sound, its manageable phase wise and affordable. Atmos does not fold to stereo, it sounds crap and this was for me the biggest oddity. If you mix using Logics spacial audio, its just messing with phase and adding effects like delay and reverb and sounds odd. Its no wonder the realisation has kicked in so quick.
What I will say is it really showed up some of the RUclipsrs who are willing to sell out fast. I get it, you need to make money however this platform should be about creating trust first. I feel its broken my trust by some of the sellouts. Thankfully your channel is one I wont be unsubbing from as I agree 100% with you, sounds like the usual music industry grab trick.
Question is who do we blame?
Why is it a question of "who"? The whole purpose of production in this society is profit-making. It's an impersonal imperative that drives crap like this, not some secret powerful cabal of greedy people.
@@in.der.welt.sein. Ultimately, yes, you're right. But that doesn't mean the bloodsuckers stop attempting it. And BTW, there's nothing secret about them. We all know who they are.
errr .... some of my best musical memories have been at live venues (big and small) with battered old amps / speakers, poor acoustics and audience noise. I stood or sat in the front, corners, next to the stage, in the bar !!! If music communicates to you in the environment you're in, it's good !!! Some of my favourite tracks are from the 60's, 70's and 80's. I danced, I got excited, I sang at the top of my voice... we had parties. Didn't give a hoot about Dolby (or even stereo) to be honest.
In 2024, I'm sure the majority of people use ear buds, Bluetooth speakers or headphones.... We don't actively listen with friends so much now, we are in a streaming bubble.
Super high quality sound is for the few, not the many. It's not compelling enough and yes tech evolved but they drip-feed us to extract max money from us. It is Greed!
Put money into artist's creativity, production, promotion and spreading the good of music. We don't need Dolby, they want us to have it. Greed, it’s the modern disease.
Barry I have been around this industry since 12 years old . I am 68 years old. I Agree With You. I said it when I first heard about this. It is a industry grab. They have lost control and now they have found someone to join them , to attempt to get it back. I have a left and right ear. They hear great. Pan here and there and I am ok. Later bro. Oh I forgot, on some 2$ earbud.
Ya good point. Getting back to holding the strings.. What could go wrong!! lol
I always welcome change and new stuff..i just bought focusrite 16 line and going dolby.. need to learn new stuff.. and surely will keep me busy for another 6 months than stick to same boring routine
This is exactly what I have been thinking
So true they hate our bedroom/Small studios. They want to be gatekeepers and think they have the right to be gatekeepers.
Of course it's about the major labels trying to take back control. So all the independent artists need to unite and brainstorm how to keep the playing field level. And AI will be part of this. And I can't imagine all of the streaming platforms will require ATMOS. But thanks for the great video.
I’ve been sceptical about Atmos since I first heard about it. Then a few weeks ago my wife and I went to see Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.3 at our local multiplex that was showing the film in Atmos. At first I found it really jarring, but after a while I must say that it sounded really great, and probably enhanced the experience. So, for cinema I would say that it’s a good thing. That’s where it belongs.
But do I want that same experience when I’m listening to my favourite records? Hell no!! It would be sheer sensory overload listening to that all the time. Am I prepared to shell out a load of bucks to have it in my home? Not a chance. Am I prepared to invest in that technology in my home studio? Haha, yeah right. I’ve put everyone I can afford into what I have. Atmos technology is so far beyond my financial means that it’s not even worth talking about.
I came to the same conclusion as you Barry, as soon as I heard a rumour that Apple Music was planning to only accept music recorded in Dolby Atmos. This is a move by the big players in the music industry to regain their dominance and control. They want to shut out all the little guys, bedroom artists and home studio owners. It’s a hugely rectro active move and I hope that people will resist it. Trouble is the average consumer doesn’t see it from our perspective. They’re just hypnotised by the new shiny.
Hi Barry - once again, very interesting topic indeed. It was at the last Namm show that I decided I was going to get into Atmos,
Because I was late coming to the troth with the whole digital movement in the first place, and it turned out to be a mistake that I had to rectify, and I’m glad I did. So I figured I want to be in as close to the ground floor as I can be with this Atmos thing. As it turns out I’m fortunate on just about every front (concerning Atmos )as a small studio owner. I have a 40 x 40 barn with a 24 foot lid, my mixing station is in the center of it all and I have floor to ceiling curtains around half of the interior. And while I don’t have a dozen or so matching speakers for an Atmos set up, I can create an Atmos environment with good quality speakers which I will have to learn how to correctly reference. But that said, I have the newer lynx I’O’s and they are Atmos compatible. Anyway, last week I got a call to do a session (I’m a guitarist) at Sunset Sound in Hollywood and the engineer was Steve Genewick. For those that don’t know him, he worked under Al Schmitt at Capitol Records for 20 years, and was, I believe the first engineer ever to do an Amos mix for Apple! He’s got stories, man! He told me that while at Capitol, someone walked in one day and said” here’s Dolby Atmos renderer you have a session in two weeks”. He had to learn it in two weeks! But anyway, what luck for me ! Perspective I gained from that day, convinced me that embracing the Atmos learning curve was something I had to absolutely do. So, The next day I bought the renderer, and now my Atmos journey is beginning. I’m not a betting man but I believe that this immersive technology is the way of the future. it’s only logical, really. For better or worse, power grab or not, I think it here to stay. I believe your theory about this is probably true, except I don’t believe that was the original intent. Just an opportunistic byproduct.
Anyway, I have been listening to every Atmos mix I can get my hands on, and I have to say that some of the Atmos mixes have heard sound artificial ; not at all natural. i’m sure as the experience bar raises the working knowledge of how to avoid this will become rudimentary, but because you can experience Atmos immersion with just stereo headphones, (in other words, you don’t have to have seven or 10 speakers around you) to hear and feel it, that fact alone would seem to justify and legitimize this movement. But knowing as little as I know about it right now ( the beginning of my learning curve), I see a lot of potential for this. It is so much more than surroundsound. anyway that’s my (more than) two cents. I think everyone will be mixing with it in the future as or industry evolves. Keep up the good work, Barry! I really enjoy your down to earth take on all of these topics.
Don't these companies ever learn? Once a certain threshold is achieved, the average consumer doesn't care about audio quality. This is a population that listens through ear buds and phone speakers. Does anyone remember HD audio and "lossless" players? How about Blu-ray audio releases? Those can produce higher quality than CDs at 7.1 or more channels. . . does anyone know someone who buys them? The hard core audiophiles don't even want this crap. Just like when they tried forcing 3D TV on us, I don't think the big companies have thought this through.
I did see this video. Great points. The biggest thing that got me is how he said the record labels aren't paying for the twos mixes. See ya later atoms.
I posted exactly what you said in this video as a comment on one of your previous videos. I think Apply may have its own reasons, but I'm pretty sure the record companies are pushing it on their end to get the control back that they lost.
You have a good and very strong point here I think. Because to me it all didn't make any sense consumer and producerwise. But imo this might shine light on right subject. At least to me this makes most sense of everything I've heard Atmos so far. I'm with you on this!
I've seen Josh's video and have felt the same way. Agree 100,000% that it's a power grab and soon we may see "Apple Studios" popping up everywhere. This power grab has been happening to indie artists for some time now, so this makes a lot of sense
I had pretty much written off Atmos. But last night I it all made sense to me that generative AI for video and immersive will be a thing. Eventually, we will be able to prompt the AI to generate whatever we want before our eyes by just speaking. Spacial audio will be important to the music industry. Oh, you just have those dusty old stereo files. Let’s get something amazing for this.
Yeah this whole "Atmos & Spacial Audio" movement has left me feeling very uneasy for sometime now too. It all seems so "FORCED" into our lives like we have to have this or else. "Or Else What?".....some of us are very happy with hearing music in stereo and having wonderful experiences while doing it. I see your point Barry, they are shoving this down our throats so they can be back in the position of "GATE KEEPPER", of if you want your music heard it has to have this. Another roadblock between the artist and their audience, without having them (The Record Company) involved.
I'm flat out getting my music to sound good in mono and Stereo, I wont be ready for atmos or surround for another 2 decades.
Preach!! Amen!
Please do NOT give in!
I do have 5 Atmos systems, ranging from 9.2.6 in my living room to a couple of 7.1.2 systems on my boat...
For MOVIES.
I have never heard an Atmos music mix that sounded anywhere NEAR as good as a well mixed stereo track!
When I listen to music I want it to come from the same number of speakers as I have EARS. (maybe plus a sub)
You can't make my music sound more immersive by putting artists above or behind me! When I go to a concert the band is in front of me. Same for a bar.
Keep the faith!
Apple is probably planning on releasing music and videos on they’re music app that can provide an immersive experience using their VR/AR headset, and on the way there they want to execute their power grad
IMO this is going to be Apple's end game with Atmos. I bet the porn industry is about to get a lot more money.
If jobs were still alive, and still running Apple, I wonder his thoughts on this.
I have seen many videos on that topic. Had a very heated discussion with someone on discord about atmos. I have the same view on this whole atmos thing, in some cases like movies it makes sense, in music not really and for home consumers most people do not have the money AND space to invest in such a setup anyway. Those companies always come up with some fancy new stuff, we have seen so many formats come and go in the end most of them never pushed through like they intended. For pro lvl engineers its also a cost factor.
I agree. I came to that conclusion a while back:
Apple has a plan to ENFORCE Atmos compability with all the shit they host on their platform.
Spotify is going to ENFORCE Atmos compatibility with all the stuff they feature on their playlists.
These two platforms are invested in the Dolby technology and want to enforce this tech on ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE ON THEIR PLATFORMS.
Atmos has been around as a technology for years prior to this moment. I started to see this funny little Dolby program on my computers a few years back. I thought it was just another interesting but completely superfluous way to program your personal listening environment at home. Hell, Microsoft OS and motherboard manufacturers offered Atmos funcionality on their products for the last few years and this was shit none of us asked for. It was bloatware and none of us knew what the fuck this stuff did or how it 'improved' what we were hearing on our PCs already. So we didn't use it.
Fast forward to the last year and it seemed that suddenly, there was industry buzz about Atmos and that it was a Dolby product that was going to be endorsed by equipment manufacturers and big companies like Apple and Spotify.
So...yeh. It's a coordinated move by players in the audio and music industry to pump shit up like back in the day: quad, 5.1, 7.1, 3-d goggles, etc...
This will pass. I'm glad you're talking about it bro. Most of us have already moved on from it and just decided it's something we don't need.
You're absolutely right!
As far as I can see this is just a way to push new products to the unsuspecting consumer.
atmos compatible speakers, atmos compatible headphones, pay extra to listen in atmos, and don't forget the atmos compatible iToilet!
It's like you say, this will pass, it's never going to be more than just a fad, and once the "techy" type people stop spending their money on it, atmos will be forgotten.
Remember, back in the early 2000s, when you "had to have" a 7.1 sound system to watch your DVD movies at home? I remember! And I also remember how just a few years later no one was using those sound systems anymore. At best some people kept using them in stereo only. Heck, I even remeber tv channels making a huge fuss about transmiting some shows in dolby surround. Where is that now?
As an audio professional, I've never had a client interested in dolby atmos, and honestly, most have never heard of it.
As a consumer, stereo is perfectly fine, even a lot of mono recordings sound great as they are.
Honestly this stuff has no practical use outside of ceneman theaters.
I also dont like apple pushing it that hard but then again if you look at their new product line with vision pro I can see where they’re coming from and what their vision is. This is just typical apple imho they did the same with headphones jacks etc. we as audio engineers really need to rally and build our own lobby to educate consumers and the industry on what actually is important.
I upgraded to Dolby Atmos and I have to say it’s been amazing. I have many many clients asking me for Dolby atmos mixes, but having said that I found my niche clientele who really wants those type of mixes. Also I didn’t understand the part where the distributors charge more. They haven’t charged me more from my experience. Not sure where you are located but here in LA it’s very common and a big percentage of artists I work with always ask for Dolby atmos as well. Not only that but so many opportunities came to me for movies mixing and I gotta say for me it’s been a game changer. I studied this technology for years. A lot of people don’t know but it’s been around for many years and I was indecisive as well. Lastly it also helps that I get gear at a pretty good price. You don’t need the big expensive speaker (which is what causes the price to go up) but for a full set up I got mine for under 8-9k and because of that I’ve landed huge projects. I do agree with you about consumers not having anything to check the mixes on, but apple pro max are great and also there are many home solutions for Dolby atmos.
The part about distributors it that it costs artists more on distrokid, etc.. to release an Atmos version. It's currently an upcharge of $26.99 per song.
Don't forget about cabling all that also. Not cheap.
From an avid consumer's perspective: I just got a pair of Sonos Era 300s & Atmos mixes do actually sound fantastic! But if the music I want is just in stereo it's not like Atmos isn't 100% backwards compatible, so I feel safe. I would pay & already have paid extra to own Atmos mixes (eg the album "Severed Surround System" by Severed Heads on Bandcamp) - and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one willing to do so. I really love Atmos. Even though the Sonos Atmos speakers cost me AU$1500, I have no regrets whatsoever.
We are at the very start ofAtmos Music. When I hear audio engineers saying they were asked if they could do audio mixes.
And there answers are obviously yes. Then they go buy the speakers and start mixing . Then using stems made to be in stereo.
No wonder it is so hit and miss.
I have a kali audio 7.1.4 setup. I love panning so for me this is awesome. But I am doing sound design and my own music started for Immersive audio. I am fortunate enough to have the time to experiment.
You can use any audio interface the has 12 outs. 7.1.4.
I do understand your point but in my opinion immersive is here to stay.
This is why Colt’s initial video pissed me off. Just assuming this is going to become the new norm and broadcasting that to your audience as fact is awful for aspiring DIY engineers.
Hi Berry, Thanks for doing these videos, very informative. While I watch lots of these types of videos for information I am rarely compelled to leave comments because I don't want to sound like I'm ranting on the Internet. Okay so I have decades long background on "3D" audio.. or what is now referred to as "immersive". What I am about to write pertains mostly to the practical aspects of this. So I really think the driving force behind this is mostly hardware manufacturers and sales and Dolby licensing. It's as if they got together and agreed that pushing this would be good for business... their business. Okay so what about the practical side of this? One has realize what is really happening in this Atmos pipeline. So as the studio you now have to have this speaker array rig or for most home production guys it means putting on headphones and using the "renderer". What does the renderer do you ask, it uses volume and panning with lots of channels like we are used to then it adds HRTF to emulate the sound of any particular channels in being placed somewhere in space in relation to the listener. HRTF = Head Related Transfer Function. Now HRTF is not new, this has been researched and developed since the 90s. As a matter of fact, most developers of HRTF uses a database from MIT research that has recorded impulses from different azimuth and elevations to produce a set of coefficients that are used in conjunction with FFT to render the sound to a certain location in space. Us studio guys have encountered this sort of processing in IRs for example. The real problem with HRTF is that it is perceived differently by different people. If your head happens to be the same dimensions as the dummy head used for measurements it might work relatively well for you. Okay so the renderer will do a good job rendering the tracks to an speaker array... after all in this case you are using the same HRTF you know and love that is your head. However when you consider most listeners won't have speaker arrays, in this case the renderer employs HRTF to place those sounds in space. So these days I would say music is most often played on smartphones using onboard speakers or in headphones. I don't have the actual data to say what the percentage is but I would argue it is huge. So then lets take a big step back and look at this as a whole. The studio provides an Atmos mix that is over 1GB (I know I have done one of these mixes HAHA), it goes to the server of the service provider. The service provider now will most likely pre render a stereo stream to distribute per stream request when the playback device is 2 channel... it probably pre renders a few popular formats. So then all this gets streamed to the listener's phone as a stereo track. Humm this seems particularly unpractical. Okay so lets listen to the stream, I would bet unless they studio simply encoded the left and right channel of the stereo mix to the "channel bed" the mix will sound less full and lacking in "glue". When you take into account how much of the glue comes from the interaction of the 2 channels in the final mix bus and mastering from the EQs, compressors, limiters and such... now all this is missing. Dolby has provided a mastering tool with compressors.. maybe ties to all channels... but it suffices to say this pales in comparison to what we would typically put on the mix bus and mastering. So practically speaking, exponentially more bits has to be delivered for a lesser final output to the consumer. There is another interesting angle I was trying to do with this. Remember when MTV came out and songs with videos got played while songs without videos didn't.. duh there's no video. This could be an angle for a less well known artist perhaps to get on Apple playlist for exposure while other artists without an Atmos mix can't get on. So, these are the 2 angles I have considered. It seems this will really benefit the manufacturers of hardware from studio gear to server farms full of data to Dolby licensing. The consumer will get a crappier product unless they have an Atmos speaker array. Really... Atmos was designed for movies not for music. The business people got together and the sales people will try to sell it to the consumers as a product they need... see Atmos logo on all the home theatre stuff :) I think it sucks HAHA!
Thank you for a well thought and informative perspective. I appreciate watching and commenting!
When some of the You Tubers started getting gaga about Atmos I just didn't buy it those folks lost credibility in my eyes. I watched as people started drinking the Kool Aide. In the end most people only have two ears. I still enjoy a hifi mono recording. Barry, I think your final assessment is spot on. The big boys want to get the control back.
I recently watched a picture in the theater that was ATMOS equipped and found that there was only ONE reason for ATMOS to be in the theater. Besides that, I feel that even surround (5.1) for music is more than a bit gimmicky in MOST situations. The late, great Glenn Meadows, Nashville mastering engineer, in relation to 5.1, said that he'd had a difficult enough time convincing his wife to agree to TWO speakers in his living room... there was no way she would agree to any more than that! ATMOS is a technology that works best for the motion picture format. Someone will come up with a new technology that will make this work (and sound terrible, too) in a sound bar... so why be so excited about it?
I once witnessed a 5.1 remix of music that was originally recorded on a 1" 8 track (ELP)... being split out to 5 speakers. It was cool, but kind of a waste. Now with masters consisting of a minimum of 100 tracks, it makes sense to have more speakers. However... overall it's kinda dumb. Good songs only need a guitar or a piano and a vocal. Terrible songs won't benefit from an increased track count of any size because the song SUCKS!! In many ways, it appears that ATMOS is here so that Dolby Labs can remain relevant. Who knows?
Barry, here's what I know, from over 60 years of recording.
The Dolby Labs business model is to create a gimmick. license the HELL out of it and hold us all HOSTAGE.
Dolby 'A' was a bomb, but we were all STUCK paying for it.
Same with Dolby 'B', etc., etc.
And this 'ATMOS' nonsense is just another gimmick that's following the Dolby business model that's worked so well in the past.
Best regards,
Bill P.
I think Apples push for spatial audio is to support the Vision Pro and future Augmented Reality tech.
if we’re forced to mix in atmos to be distributed, lots of local studios are just going to buy the cheapest compatible interfaces and consumer grade speaker setup just to make ‘alright’ atmos mixes. or simply duplicate their left-right channels to all speaker and bounce it as atmos
Spent my whole life in this industry from on-air to audio production, performing live, mixing, editing, etc, while being as much a “consumer” and so-called audiophile as anyone all the while. I don’t know if I’m about the calculated forcing down our throats idea yet, but I’ve been listening to this evolution in real time. I saw yours and Seawell’s video and I feel the frustration.
Atmos mixes are amazing when they are done well. The problem is, Dolby Atmos mixing is an art. If it’s not done beautifully and artistically, it can be downright AWFUL! The bad Atmos mixes streaming today have been allowed to go live with no quality standards whatsoever. The discrepancy in overall loudness mastering from one track to the next on a playlist alone would be something stringently policed in the same platforms’ stereo world and would be unacceptable.
Personally as creators and consumers I feel like we missed a potentially great ride on the 5.1 bus. There are beautiful, emotional, impeccably mixed works of art from the late 90s through 2007 and still today from Bob Clearmountain, Steven Wilson, Eliot Scheiner and the like that not only have immersive channels but also have 24bit/96k quality in all six channels. Very few people had proper setups to enjoy them back then but they do now. Obviously we didn’t have streaming or bandwidth until recently. Now that we have the bandwidth and the tech to stream music at a high bitrate, we/they are instead opting to deliver 16bit/48mbps “lossy” 9 or 11 channel Atmos content to the masses before the “art” of Atmos mixing is even a thing! Even established skilled 5.1 mixing engineers have to learn a whole new platform. And those people were few and far enough between already. I feel like true Atmos mixing engineers are artists giving music a new level of audio production, performance and experience. And that art should only be from the best of the best. In a rush to get Atmos content, the platforms, not just Apple, are accepting VERY low standards. On a really top level system, bad Atmos mixes are quite obvious upon first listen.
Meanwhile, like you said, the gear manufacturers are eating it up. I’m now working in the home theater component manufacturing business and I hear a demand and a resurgence of multichannel enthusiasts that you may not be aware of. They’re there. When someone is properly “wowed” by a correct Atmos mix on a tuned, Atmos compatible system, on SPEAKERS (not binaural or on headphones) it can be life changing and make someone immediately drop $40K to have it for himself. I’ve seen it happen. The Atmos music landscape at the moment on the streaming platforms is littered with bad, unprofessional mixes with no loudness or quality restrictions and absolutely horrible categorization and search functions that are resulting in many “meh” responses from potential consumers.
That’s where the problems that you and Mr. Seawell describe kick in.
I have hope. I’ve had premium Apple and Tidal subscriptions and a meticulous multichannel listening room for a long time now and I hear the junkyard getting slowly cleaned up literally as we speak. The searching and categorizing on both platforms is still a big mess. I see more of a scenario of many carts getting way in front of many horses more than I see some sort of calculated conspiracy. But that’s just me. Thanks for bringing it up.
Atmos mix as well as stereo mix? Wow that seriously increases the time in the studio.