Crowdfunding has almost no “value” almost every game is cheaper at retail if you consider shipping. Im in canada and this is true for probably 80% of titles
@@SuBerial not so much taxes or vat but insane exchange rates and shipping costs. 100$ game is close to 200$ once you add it up. Retailers must get much better pricing and save lots on combining the shipping on multiple copies. Or they decide to not make any profit i guess. lol.
@@SuBerial The one-two punch of shipping and VAT is killer, yeah. There are campaigns now where I look and think, "You look fun. I'm in no rush. In a few years I'll maybe get you cheap in clearance."
I was torn between GC or Blood. Blood won me over because the character designs are actually solid and relatable. I can eventually have a fave character and bond with it. Hard to to with GC because the designs are so “chaotic”. Have you noticed, all their faces are covered with the exception of the Jester. Blood characters are more relatable because you can see their faces and it helps form that bond. Just mho
Going into the month I thought I would 100% instant back Grimcoven and Odalin and ended up passing on both. Grimcoven just felt like it was half baked and not ready to be shown off and the campaign just turned me off. Was not feeling it at all. Odalin I could not help but think that I would be better served waiting and getting the 1.5 enhanced/edited/fixed reprint down the road assuming it turns out good. Especially with how there does not seem to be much financial incentive to be an early backer anymore. To be fair to Odalin that's a feeling I've been having more and more in general with game backing though and not specifically an Odalin problem.
My wife used to tell me about all the money she had saved in the sales. I asked her for the cash and I didn't get any of it. But "you've SAVED it honey" I'll put it in the holiday kitty. What I eventually got was it was now good value, ie it wasn't good value at full price. Value is what you think it's worth not what the "advertised discount" is. Your view of is it good for you is so true. I've seen so many solo Button Shy games reviewed as "best ever", my "number one". Every time I look at them I want to like them but realistic enough to understand that the gameplay isn't for me. If I get them they won't be used, no value. Keep at it Chris, you are keeping at least some of us sane.
I was sure that I would back Grimcoven, but I was so disappointed in the campaign that I passed. My biggest problem is that the A.I. art is so prevalent. It's easy for me to see how the A.I. threw a bunch of crap together to come up with the characters designs and even the ideas for some characters (a doll as a hero? a werewolf wearing a skin mask of a wolf? a bunch of non-interlocking gears slopped together on a character's arm and they call it clockwork? WTF?). It felt like they were advertising for a game with a Bloodborne aesthetic and then switched it up to include jesters, dolls and other ridiculous characters. I also found the gameplay to be lackluster and the amount of bosses in this boss battler is disappointing. I don't think Grimcoven will even come close to being as good as Oathsworn, which is currently sitting on my shelf until I'm finished painting the minis.
I was the same way with GC. I actually loved the dark, gritty atmosphere but the character design were so “busy”. At a distance it’s difficult to tell who’s who. I did decide to go with Blood. Similar aesthetic but the characters actually have a certain charm. You can actually form a bind with your fave character but it’s hard to do with GC. I’m genuinely excited to get Blood game.
Your comment about how it’s easier to review easy games is spot on. Its also what i think is killing games for me. Designers and publishers want to make good games i am sure… but most importantly they need to get positive reviews. So they get pretty art and simplify the mechanisms because they know if the game is too complex, reviewers wont be interested in putting in the work to learn the game to make a video for it. This results in so many watered down “family” weight games. Everything seems so generic now that i can rarely get through a review anymore.
Distilled is an excellent example of what i am looking for in a game. It’s different than other titles, doesn’t need anthropomorphic animals to get people into it. Mechanisms are solid. Im not a huge fan of the randomness but as long as you plan ahead you can mitigate it most times.
However if it’s complex and requires a large investment for a reviewer, then it’s complex and requires a large investment for the gamer. Publishers are going where the money is. Perhaps you have less in common with the majority of gamers than you think?
@@arcaderunner2188 probably. Ive never really been like most people lol. I enjoy the mental challenge of boardgames. Ive always liked logic puzzles. It seems that most people play games to relax. So a cute game with simple mechanisms is perfect. You are right. People dont like putting in an investment, instant gratification is what most want. But most things that require you to put in some work and effort, end up proving to be worth it. I also think most people are sheep and just buy games because reviewers say they are good. Ive proven this to myself many times looking through my local facebook group for selling games. And most posts are selling all the junk games that the dice tower says are amazing. And judging by what publishers do, I would say the strategy is… machine gun games out as much as possible and hope one blows up. Can anyone keep up with the game releases? Or if a game is successful, make a million versions of it and somehow people will keep buying it. Wirmspan, farshore, age of innovation, zombiecide, change a mechanism =give me 80$.
I was really interested in Grimcoven, Odalin, Blood, and the new Hexplore It. I told myself I was only going to back one of them, ended up passing on all of them.
AR just keeps churning out game after game, campaign game, after campaign game with a huge "epic" story. Filled to the brim with AI Art, Chat GPT generated story, fiddly mechanics, hours upon hours of repetitive gameplay. I don't know I can't justify spending money on their campaigns if the quality is not there. Their miniatures are a nightmare to paint by the way because of the AI generated art they went with in order to create their miniatures. I used to back everything AR, now I'm very selective. Grimcoven was up there for me but it was a huge let down.
The first thing I backed from AR has been Tainted Grail: Kings of Ruin. Thoroughly enjoying the campaign. Not too bothered if it's AI generated, as it's far better written than most slop from humans I've had to trudge through in games. You're right about painting the minis - I've been too intimidated by all the tiny details to even try yet. And you're right about the fiddly mechanics - whoever thought it was a good idea to call the chapters deck the Event deck, when there's also a deck of random events, deserves karmic retribution. Maybe they should get the AI to write the rules too! Only backed Dragon Eclipse out of their other stuff. And the deciding factor was because it's something I reckon my niece and nephew might enjoy. Like others on here, I was really hyped for Grimcoven before the campaign launch. But something about it just fell flat with me, despite me enjoying TG:KoR.
Odalin is soo intriguing to me I agree it could be awesome or terrible. If it is awesome you know that there will be a reprint. So wait for then. No risk, high reward.
I was happy with Grimcoven. I don't feel the way you do about rulebooks on campaigns, for me it's mostly aesthetic and cost because my friends and I can always find a way to make a game fun at the table.
Have gotten better at only backing games that really enchant me. Especially games with miniatures. I'll try to go for the non-deluxe standee versions. (Got a huge pile of shame of unpainted minis. And the games just sit in a box otherwise.) Like you all say, there's no value if the game doesn't get played. Yes, there've been a few grim fantasy games with cool concepts and aesthetics lately, like Grimcoven, Odalin, and Blood. Grimcoven and Blood both look gorgeous. And the standee price tags made them very easy to buy without breaking the bank. Didn't back either because the gameplay didn't excite me. (The card iconography for Blood felt so arcane too.) I could've bought both games with the amount I splurged on Odalin, and still had plenty to spare. But everything about Odalin excited me. I know I'll play it. And so it's the better use of my money. Still can get sucked in - regret backing Wroth on crowdfunding rather than waiting for retail. But dang, that game's pretty, and pimped up, and got a solo mode. Another important value risk factor with crowdfunding is the delivery. Backing things where the prices get hiked up after a campaign feels so bad. The stable pledges on Gamefound can have a big influence on whether I back a project or not.
I personally enjoy the 'filler' games. My wife will play those games with me so they survive any purges, meanwhile the 'gamer' games have to fight for their spots in my collection.
I really wanted to back through the desert. I didnt last minute. And I met someone that has it and tried it at 3 and its a complete miss for me. Skytear Horde I was OK with and with the changes made in Monolith I enjoyed so much more
I can say that I was very interested in Grimcoven and didnt back it. For one, Boss Battler isnt my thing after all, but more importantly: It didnt seem to deliver on that mechanical aspect. I like the transformation idea and the dice system sounds fun, but that's it. The Preview on Shelfside swayed me off it despite the cool asthaetics. The actual fights, especially bosses and the "board" are so bare bones or half bakes, it's not even funny. disappointing.
If art is a 9 and gameplay is a 7, I’m going all in lol I’ve backed much less than that and been happy with my purchase. I’m a cheap date. These companies probably love me
Hey Bro just a few things! 1. I think you’re the best dude to watch vids on the net about board games! Love your passion and the fact you don’t kiss ass! 2. I was full in plus extras, acrylics, scenery etc - but after about 1 week and continued watching throughout the campaign and something just felt off about the whole thing. No rule book, crap video play throughs, some late design choices and fake voting! Then just add everything anyway and take your money! So tbh fk them! 3. Odalin looks awesome but it is just another dungeon crawler plus set up room to room would be exciting but slow as hell! Plus price holy crap the price! 4. I live in Japan and mate it’s so expensive to get games here! I am new to the hobby and have to be so careful about what to buy and even the retail versions (even with shipping being up to 40% of the core product) is mostly cheaper than getting them in Japan even from Japan Amazon! Keep keeping it real bro, fight the fomo!
Exceptional art enhances “just okay” gameplay for me, but until I grow more arms and eyestalks I can only look at one game at a time. I might still pledge on indie games that wouldn’t exist at all without crowdfunding, but I’m burning out on the superdeluxification type of crowdfunding. Maybe one of the pledge levels should always be a fake box top to put on the shelf 😂
I didn't back "How to save a world" precisely for the scoring conditions. I don't really like the idea of investing in a direction and putting efforts in a strategy to loose based on random scoring. I don't mind randomness during the game (like one track getting overwhelmingly invested on by others forcing you to change strategies or random events disturbing the flow of your plans), it's just the "so it's the end scoring that is random so there is nothing you can do about it anymore"... I think if the scores for the winning track didn't have as much difference with the scoring for other tracks or if during the games they where mechanics that allowed to balance this (like the species cards scoring higher and you could just invest in those to balance, even though it might makes the game only about those cards in the end overshadowing the scoring tracks, anyway... I'm not a game designer) I would have backed. Yea, I do extensive parenthesis too 😆
I think Unstoppable campaign was a disaster. That last stretch goal with a box for the retail expansion, instead of having a single box containing everything in the pledge.
Brink was that game for me. I fully backed moonrakers (I love it) and wanted to love Brink, but with all the vids showing the deluxe edition components, but with no disclaimer (implying what was shown was the base game) was quite disappointing. And the price point of it looking to be more than I feel the game's worth, especially for the base version.
I don't understand the issue with the co-op mode for Unstoppable. Do you want an entirely different set of rules and gameplay? Isn't it a great thing that you can just slide in a second player without massive adjustments to gameplay and a bunch of additional rules. Doesn't that speak for the solidity of the system? Would love to understand the issue.
Crowdfunding really is no longer about value, for North American people. I have purchased past Kickstarter items, with crowdfunding exclusives, for less than the crowdfunding cost, with no shipping. I hate that, as a crowdfunding fan, but it is out there frequently. That includes large and small campaigns.
I backed grimcoven because one shot dungeon crawlers are not that many (and I won't play campaigns), only other options that I know is cthulhu death may die or zombicide, and one of them I've played it a lot with a friend and I don't like the other. The miniatures impressed me a lot at first but I think the theme became more mid with the overuse of red and black and maybe the AI art ( I don't care that much about bloodborne, I thought it was going to be a castlevania game at first too), while for example it's competitor of blood had actually more miniatures and I liked more the theme/art. About the gameplay, I expect it to be a 7 or 7'5 but at least it had progression like I wanted in a game with a bunch of different cards,, and I thought that with awaken realm I can get 50 dollars in value normally with them if the game don't flop really hard. crowdfunding lately only have value for this kind of games with big publishers that sells miniatures games, because otherwise you lose money (I've lost money backing astroknights for example)
Crowdfunding has almost no “value” almost every game is cheaper at retail if you consider shipping. Im in canada and this is true for probably 80% of titles
In Europe it's always cheaper at retail thanks to VAT.
Do you have VAT or other taxes to pay in Canada ?
@@SuBerial not so much taxes or vat but insane exchange rates and shipping costs.
100$ game is close to 200$ once you add it up. Retailers must get much better pricing and save lots on combining the shipping on multiple copies. Or they decide to not make any profit i guess. lol.
@@SuBerial The one-two punch of shipping and VAT is killer, yeah. There are campaigns now where I look and think, "You look fun. I'm in no rush. In a few years I'll maybe get you cheap in clearance."
I was torn between GC or Blood.
Blood won me over because the character designs are actually solid and relatable. I can eventually have a fave character and bond with it. Hard to to with GC because the designs are so “chaotic”. Have you noticed, all their faces are covered with the exception of the Jester. Blood characters are more relatable because you can see their faces and it helps form that bond. Just mho
Going into the month I thought I would 100% instant back Grimcoven and Odalin and ended up passing on both.
Grimcoven just felt like it was half baked and not ready to be shown off and the campaign just turned me off. Was not feeling it at all.
Odalin I could not help but think that I would be better served waiting and getting the 1.5 enhanced/edited/fixed reprint down the road assuming it turns out good. Especially with how there does not seem to be much financial incentive to be an early backer anymore. To be fair to Odalin that's a feeling I've been having more and more in general with game backing though and not specifically an Odalin problem.
My wife used to tell me about all the money she had saved in the sales. I asked her for the cash and I didn't get any of it. But "you've SAVED it honey" I'll put it in the holiday kitty. What I eventually got was it was now good value, ie it wasn't good value at full price. Value is what you think it's worth not what the "advertised discount" is. Your view of is it good for you is so true. I've seen so many solo Button Shy games reviewed as "best ever", my "number one". Every time I look at them I want to like them but realistic enough to understand that the gameplay isn't for me. If I get them they won't be used, no value.
Keep at it Chris, you are keeping at least some of us sane.
I was sure that I would back Grimcoven, but I was so disappointed in the campaign that I passed. My biggest problem is that the A.I. art is so prevalent. It's easy for me to see how the A.I. threw a bunch of crap together to come up with the characters designs and even the ideas for some characters (a doll as a hero? a werewolf wearing a skin mask of a wolf? a bunch of non-interlocking gears slopped together on a character's arm and they call it clockwork? WTF?). It felt like they were advertising for a game with a Bloodborne aesthetic and then switched it up to include jesters, dolls and other ridiculous characters.
I also found the gameplay to be lackluster and the amount of bosses in this boss battler is disappointing.
I don't think Grimcoven will even come close to being as good as Oathsworn, which is currently sitting on my shelf until I'm finished painting the minis.
I was the same way with GC. I actually loved the dark, gritty atmosphere but the character design were so “busy”. At a distance it’s difficult to tell who’s who. I did decide to go with Blood. Similar aesthetic but the characters actually have a certain charm. You can actually form a bind with your fave character but it’s hard to do with GC.
I’m genuinely excited to get Blood game.
Your comment about how it’s easier to review easy games is spot on. Its also what i think is killing games for me. Designers and publishers want to make good games i am sure… but most importantly they need to get positive reviews. So they get pretty art and simplify the mechanisms because they know if the game is too complex, reviewers wont be interested in putting in the work to learn the game to make a video for it. This results in so many watered down “family” weight games. Everything seems so generic now that i can rarely get through a review anymore.
Distilled is an excellent example of what i am looking for in a game. It’s different than other titles, doesn’t need anthropomorphic animals to get people into it. Mechanisms are solid. Im not a huge fan of the randomness but as long as you plan ahead you can mitigate it most times.
However if it’s complex and requires a large investment for a reviewer, then it’s complex and requires a large investment for the gamer. Publishers are going where the money is. Perhaps you have less in common with the majority of gamers than you think?
@@arcaderunner2188 probably. Ive never really been like most people lol. I enjoy the mental challenge of boardgames. Ive always liked logic puzzles. It seems that most people play games to relax. So a cute game with simple mechanisms is perfect.
You are right. People dont like putting in an investment, instant gratification is what most want. But most things that require you to put in some work and effort, end up proving to be worth it.
I also think most people are sheep and just buy games because reviewers say they are good. Ive proven this to myself many times looking through my local facebook group for selling games. And most posts are selling all the junk games that the dice tower says are amazing.
And judging by what publishers do, I would say the strategy is… machine gun games out as much as possible and hope one blows up. Can anyone keep up with the game releases?
Or if a game is successful, make a million versions of it and somehow people will keep buying it. Wirmspan, farshore, age of innovation, zombiecide, change a mechanism =give me 80$.
I just don't back anything without seeing gameplay and if it clicks with me or not.
I was really interested in Grimcoven, Odalin, Blood, and the new Hexplore It. I told myself I was only going to back one of them, ended up passing on all of them.
AR just keeps churning out game after game, campaign game, after campaign game with a huge "epic" story. Filled to the brim with AI Art, Chat GPT generated story, fiddly mechanics, hours upon hours of repetitive gameplay.
I don't know I can't justify spending money on their campaigns if the quality is not there. Their miniatures are a nightmare to paint by the way because of the AI generated art they went with in order to create their miniatures. I used to back everything AR, now I'm very selective. Grimcoven was up there for me but it was a huge let down.
The first thing I backed from AR has been Tainted Grail: Kings of Ruin. Thoroughly enjoying the campaign. Not too bothered if it's AI generated, as it's far better written than most slop from humans I've had to trudge through in games. You're right about painting the minis - I've been too intimidated by all the tiny details to even try yet. And you're right about the fiddly mechanics - whoever thought it was a good idea to call the chapters deck the Event deck, when there's also a deck of random events, deserves karmic retribution. Maybe they should get the AI to write the rules too!
Only backed Dragon Eclipse out of their other stuff. And the deciding factor was because it's something I reckon my niece and nephew might enjoy. Like others on here, I was really hyped for Grimcoven before the campaign launch. But something about it just fell flat with me, despite me enjoying TG:KoR.
Odalin is soo intriguing to me I agree it could be awesome or terrible. If it is awesome you know that there will be a reprint. So wait for then. No risk, high reward.
It is all about the FOMO... I totally agree
I was happy with Grimcoven. I don't feel the way you do about rulebooks on campaigns, for me it's mostly aesthetic and cost because my friends and I can always find a way to make a game fun at the table.
I find it hard to absorb one rulebook at a time, 20 etc kudos to you. This indeed would be hard.
Have gotten better at only backing games that really enchant me. Especially games with miniatures. I'll try to go for the non-deluxe standee versions. (Got a huge pile of shame of unpainted minis. And the games just sit in a box otherwise.) Like you all say, there's no value if the game doesn't get played.
Yes, there've been a few grim fantasy games with cool concepts and aesthetics lately, like Grimcoven, Odalin, and Blood. Grimcoven and Blood both look gorgeous. And the standee price tags made them very easy to buy without breaking the bank. Didn't back either because the gameplay didn't excite me. (The card iconography for Blood felt so arcane too.) I could've bought both games with the amount I splurged on Odalin, and still had plenty to spare. But everything about Odalin excited me. I know I'll play it. And so it's the better use of my money.
Still can get sucked in - regret backing Wroth on crowdfunding rather than waiting for retail. But dang, that game's pretty, and pimped up, and got a solo mode.
Another important value risk factor with crowdfunding is the delivery. Backing things where the prices get hiked up after a campaign feels so bad. The stable pledges on Gamefound can have a big influence on whether I back a project or not.
I was hoping to hear ur opinion about blood
I bought it!
@@dougsealy199 me too, but i still want to hear his opinion for a wider view
I personally enjoy the 'filler' games. My wife will play those games with me so they survive any purges, meanwhile the 'gamer' games have to fight for their spots in my collection.
I really wanted to back through the desert. I didnt last minute. And I met someone that has it and tried it at 3 and its a complete miss for me. Skytear Horde I was OK with and with the changes made in Monolith I enjoyed so much more
I can say that I was very interested in Grimcoven and didnt back it. For one, Boss Battler isnt my thing after all, but more importantly: It didnt seem to deliver on that mechanical aspect. I like the transformation idea and the dice system sounds fun, but that's it. The Preview on Shelfside swayed me off it despite the cool asthaetics. The actual fights, especially bosses and the "board" are so bare bones or half bakes, it's not even funny. disappointing.
If art is a 9 and gameplay is a 7, I’m going all in lol I’ve backed much less than that and been happy with my purchase. I’m a cheap date. These companies probably love me
That Darkwing Duck comment took me back. 👍
Hey Bro just a few things!
1. I think you’re the best dude to watch vids on the net about board games! Love your passion and the fact you don’t kiss ass!
2. I was full in plus extras, acrylics, scenery etc - but after about 1 week and continued watching throughout the campaign and something just felt off about the whole thing.
No rule book, crap video play throughs, some late design choices and fake voting! Then just add everything anyway and take your money! So tbh fk them!
3. Odalin looks awesome but it is just another dungeon crawler plus set up room to room would be exciting but slow as hell! Plus price holy crap the price!
4. I live in Japan and mate it’s so expensive to get games here! I am new to the hobby and have to be so careful about what to buy and even the retail versions (even with shipping being up to 40% of the core product) is mostly cheaper than getting them in Japan even from Japan Amazon!
Keep keeping it real bro, fight the fomo!
31:06 2x speed or bust
Exceptional art enhances “just okay” gameplay for me, but until I grow more arms and eyestalks I can only look at one game at a time. I might still pledge on indie games that wouldn’t exist at all without crowdfunding, but I’m burning out on the superdeluxification type of crowdfunding. Maybe one of the pledge levels should always be a fake box top to put on the shelf 😂
I didn't back "How to save a world" precisely for the scoring conditions. I don't really like the idea of investing in a direction and putting efforts in a strategy to loose based on random scoring. I don't mind randomness during the game (like one track getting overwhelmingly invested on by others forcing you to change strategies or random events disturbing the flow of your plans), it's just the "so it's the end scoring that is random so there is nothing you can do about it anymore"... I think if the scores for the winning track didn't have as much difference with the scoring for other tracks or if during the games they where mechanics that allowed to balance this (like the species cards scoring higher and you could just invest in those to balance, even though it might makes the game only about those cards in the end overshadowing the scoring tracks, anyway... I'm not a game designer) I would have backed. Yea, I do extensive parenthesis too 😆
I think Unstoppable campaign was a disaster. That last stretch goal with a box for the retail expansion, instead of having a single box containing everything in the pledge.
It's distill the recipe! Come on man get you vocabulary together ❤️
Brink was that game for me. I fully backed moonrakers (I love it) and wanted to love Brink, but with all the vids showing the deluxe edition components, but with no disclaimer (implying what was shown was the base game) was quite disappointing. And the price point of it looking to be more than I feel the game's worth, especially for the base version.
"Are you entertained ?"
I don't understand the issue with the co-op mode for Unstoppable. Do you want an entirely different set of rules and gameplay? Isn't it a great thing that you can just slide in a second player without massive adjustments to gameplay and a bunch of additional rules. Doesn't that speak for the solidity of the system?
Would love to understand the issue.
Crowdfunding really is no longer about value, for North American people. I have purchased past Kickstarter items, with crowdfunding exclusives, for less than the crowdfunding cost, with no shipping. I hate that, as a crowdfunding fan, but it is out there frequently. That includes large and small campaigns.
I backed grimcoven because one shot dungeon crawlers are not that many (and I won't play campaigns), only other options that I know is cthulhu death may die or zombicide, and one of them I've played it a lot with a friend and I don't like the other. The miniatures impressed me a lot at first but I think the theme became more mid with the overuse of red and black and maybe the AI art ( I don't care that much about bloodborne, I thought it was going to be a castlevania game at first too), while for example it's competitor of blood had actually more miniatures and I liked more the theme/art.
About the gameplay, I expect it to be a 7 or 7'5 but at least it had progression like I wanted in a game with a bunch of different cards,, and I thought that with awaken realm I can get 50 dollars in value normally with them if the game don't flop really hard. crowdfunding lately only have value for this kind of games with big publishers that sells miniatures games, because otherwise you lose money (I've lost money backing astroknights for example)
Middara also has a one-shot mode
Massive Darkness 2 for fun Diablo-style one-shots.
@@arcaderunner2188oh!, didn't know about massive darkness 2 was one-shot. But in my country they don't sell this game yet 😅
Try Dungeons Infinity. Sure it has a campaign, but is a great one off as well