As a previous dr.Mario main. I would say this is 100% accurate. This tier list is based on max potential easiness. And since his max potential is literally nothing, it’s very easy to achieve
That is because when you never played the character, it's easier to get him on elite, I got PT trainer in elite too by just winning 1 match lmao, so many like that, just winning 2 or 3 and already on elite. Just make sure the number of the GSP is blue and you good to go.
I’m glad that Riddles acknowledges how difficult Rosa is, she’s actually super difficult to use. She’s one of my favorites to play and have counterpicked people in bracket with her because of matchup inexperience, but she’s so easy to punish and combo that it’s a nightmare. Especially recovering, my goodness.
@@mysteriousdora6914 Luma doesnt come back "quickly" if you play her it takes years and he easily dies with 1 hit and shes bad with luma and worse than Mac without.
@@mysteriousdora6914 I play Peach and my brother plays Rosalina with easily 5 - 10k hours across Smash4 - Ultimate and Luma easily dies from a bair, fait, side-b, dash-attack. He dies easily and even got buffed plenty times and even Dabuz dropped her in Ult cause she is so bad, stop arguing about a obvious problem that Rosa is bad and you get probably clapped by a low - mid tier
I'm no falco main but his placement was kinda odd. The tier list was how hard it was to get the max potential of a character, yet the justification of his placement is that there is a lot in elite. Elite smash isn't the max potential of characters. You even said yourself, that falcos neutral gets harder at top level but he is ranked easier than pissra, the character that barely has to play neutral
I agree too, i am a falco main and falco is much harder than ehat people think, they think that falco can put any character from 0 to 90 from a combo and thats not true he has a MASSIVE amout of characters hes weak agains and hes recovery is very easy to punish if you dont mix it up a lot, most of the times you get 20 from a combo because of SDI and DI of people, essentially playing against falco is easy is they just go fro grabs and up tilts, using falco is easy, being a GOOD Falco is incredibely hard
If the list is about how hard it is to reach a character's maximum potential, than it doesn't matter if they have cheese or not, because having easier options doesn't take away from the complexity of their kit. Just cause shulk has shield art doesn't mean learning to use his other arts gets easier. Having super armor or in smash attacks doesn't make ewgf on kazuya easier. Having a low skill floor and high skill ceiling are two separate factors.
^. Some of his picks are confusing the crud out of me right now. Like how can Mario be _that_ high when he put Luigi at the bottom? Also, as a technical R.O.B. main, I disagree with his placement. Yeah, the dtilt cheese is pretty dumb, but has he seen Lucretio's cracked out combos?
i agree, link may have nair, but to master his kit is another challenge, mastering niche arrow usage, rang in advantage and disadvantage, and how hard u press it and the angle, recovering which has versatility especially compared to the cast, bomb is also super complex more than most people think, but would take too long to explain every use, and then his bair 1 use, nair also, up b, forward throw and down throw, all his throws tbh, his jabs, down tilt, even dash attack, he got too much going on, hes a character u can either play very simple and plain with just good neutral, or u can be very tech heavy which would burn out your brain too fast, so it's about finding a balance
Zelda’s harder than riddles gives credit for if you take into more of her advanced tech, tightest teleport cancels, phantom displacement, phantom canceling.
she takes like a decent amount of skill not only because of all the techs you can do with teleports and knight but also just making her work against pretty much every charcter in mid tier and above shes slow and floaty. if your playing against a half decent player that knows how to juggle someone you might just lose i wish ppl didnt just instantly think about those elite smash zelda players that just abuse online and more players like ven and zelda mains who r putting in soo much work to just make her viable
I honestly think Sephiroth offline is ridiculously hard, it takes so much precision to play that character and do well at a high level it's nuts imo. Elite Smashers won't understand it but when I go to locals and play somewhat good people it's hard to win man, it sucks that he's like the coolest character in the game because I feel like I have to drop him, if I don't read my opponent majority of the time I lose because his frame-data sucks. Just get out-framed/paced.
Sephiroth isn’t even fun for more than like 4 games. I just wanna play the game not be worried about spacing everything perfectly then just get parried and punished anyway. Das why Roy is my boi
Meta knight at least belongs in a tier. Having to instant double jump and fast fall slightly and short hop jump is to just do combos is pretty insane imo
I agree, his ladders put him at bottom of A at the minimum. He has a good OOS in theory with Dair but... it's Dair. However I can see why Riddles put him lower. Not only is his recovery good, but if you know how to play him, an offstage battle is almost always a win.
Peach has been my ride or die since Brawl. She’s so much fun to play and with all the tech you can do, and with more being discovered, the sky truly is the limit... She will never get boring 🍑💙
Dude I envy how much you like peach, to have mained her since Brawl. I wish I had a character that I liked playing that much. How did you decide on maining her?
no main I love that she can float, turnips are fun to play with and they can snipe recoveries. Just really drawn to her character design overall. She’s not fast per se, but she’s quick and can put on pressure like no other. And I love the fact that she is almost impossible to hit out of her parasol, so elegant yet so evasive 😂 A classy lady that can also get it done. Also side tilt, N-air and B-air are life 💙
@@Oceanfreak6 I see! I have to agree Peach has such an interesting and unique design. And Lol the parasol drives me nuts sometimes xD. Personally, I guess I haven't put much time into Peach because it's kind of intimidating to learn all the combos and tech she has. She's really cool though!
no main Yeah the combos come with time and practice. She’s always had a steep learning curve and it only inclined since Ultimate. But once you get the float cancel aerials down she turns into a beast. It’s crazy to see your opponents go from 0%to 68%+ in 2 seconds flat with four or five moves. She’s not a character for everyone but if you love her, or are willing to stick it thru, the rewards are boundless.
Same here!! I first mained her in Brawl then Melee (I had Brawl first then Melee) and couldn't stop since lol. I know some of the advance techs she had but my execution of them is not there at all lmaoo
I think if someone were to utilize all of the tech Lucas has to offer then he could definitely upset some people. He has some crazy precise tech that not really anyone has fully utilized in a major before. Watch blucas v samsora to see what I mean.. Just my opinion tho 🤷♂️
@@-en_x3 I've been a Lucas main for 4 years and this is cap. Even at top potential I don't think he would reach top 15. There is only so much stuff you can do with djcz.
I think you might be underestimating the rest of the characters in B-tier. What makes Lucas so difficult that you have to be insanely skilled at? I would like to hear your take.
@@DurzoGuile you have to master nair/ dair loops,you need lots of reads to win, you need perfect spacing,you need to be able to djcz consistently, he's very a Slow and can have a hard time recovering, and he has lots of endlang on his moves, he can't land and gets juggled forever which is why he has a horrible disadvantage state, and finally his hitboxes are quite small and he struggles to kill
@@strickshot @Oliver Jacobsen Precisely. Not to mention Magnet movement, and a necessity for wavebouncing. Most characters don't need that kind of tech, but to make Lucas viable, it's a must. And mostly what got me to comment was seeing Corrin in B-tier. I love Corrin, but they have little to no sauce at all. They have one of the most basic movesets excluding Side-B. And even Side-B has a small learning curve. Most swordfighting characters have a small skill ceiling when it comes to the fighters specifically. Sure, you need to be good at the game to play them effectively, but if we're talking about skill ceilings pertaining to the character's abilities? None of their individual moves are applicable to a high skill ceiling. Whereas Lucas, who although is easy in casual environments, has a considerably high skill ceiling and potential for tech and saucey combos. Basically all I'm saying is, Lucas doesn't deserve C-tier.
@@Cinder36 If we're talking pure techskill, I can definately see your point, but if techskill is the sole determining factor in your book, then Riddles' placement on Sephiroth makes 0 sense, because he basically has 0 techskill besides fundamentals. Not saying Lucas is deserved/undeserved placement, but take this tier list with a grain of salt, while figuring out what he means by certain characters placement.
@@DurzoGuile It's definitely mostly techskill, but I'd argue that Lucas combos in general have a lot of potential. But nobody plays him, so nobody knows. That could probably go for a lot of the characters. But he also said nothing about Lucas. He just said:"Lucas? C" lol. Probably because most people think Ness and Lucas are too similar to seperate, but I disagree.
I think Robin at least harder than banjo considering how many combos techniques they need to know, short hop footstool, b reverse (well, banjo does this a lot to), switching between bronze and levin for combo, phantom footstool, combo setups, discard dribble, etc. I'm robin, bayo, and chrom main
Hard agree with you man, Robin is way more technical, and has to earn more, and have to be pinpoint with neutral and edge guarding characters like banjo
I don’t know Banjo is very hard. As I Banjo main for a long time a lot of his techniques are way to hard for me to use. Like his neutral B 3 times to forward air. Also his recovery requires a lot of skill a b-reversing
Agree with this. There's a lot of tech Robin needs to know from B-reversing, wave bouncing, and footstools. Resource management and discard set ups as well
Meta Knight not being higher is the biggest snub here. There's a reason there's only like 2 good meta knights. Sure, he has good recovery, and some privileged special moves, but his combos are very difficult and his hotboxes are very inconsistent. Also, that sword is SO small 🤦🏼♂️
@@ChiefZelios I am not particularly good at this game, but my best three are be byleth, ike, and captain falcon (in that order). Metaknight is fun. I play him a lot, but I suck with him 🤷🏼♂️ but it's fun to teleport and forward smash in neutral.
I don't think sora's hard because his moveset isn't good, I think sora's hard because his best setups are frame tight and nailing that online or offline is hard as hell
I really think he's hard because he's weird. He's floaty af and has to win a ton of neutral without any insane combos. Being really floaty in general generally makes your character harder because it makes your air movement so absurdly important and percise. Mewtwo is very similar albeit even more difficult because he has low air acceleration and high air speed while Sora is the opposite and has a slightly higher fall speed than Sora but still really low. Being really floaty just makes air movement unwieldy and harder to master with Mewtwo probably having the hardest air movement in the game but Sora is also definitely up there.
(brawler main) bro i waited the entire damn video to see how hard he thought brawler was and then he said "fuck the miis" and did not elaborate any further
feels like some characters were judged based on how hard they are to be "workable", while others were judged based on how hard it is to reach their "max potential". though honestly, considering how subjective this whole topic is, i feel like this issue, along with others, was pretty much inevitable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As a Yoshi main, I whole heartedly agree with what you said. You can get elite smash with the character by just spamming Fair and Nair basically, but once you start facing decent opponents who know the matchup, you actually need to learn some stuffs about the game and your character to be less predictable. So yeah, most Yoshi players are braindead, I use to be too so I know... but playing Yoshi at a decent level does require a bit of skill and knowledge. Still an easy character to pick up tho.
Game and watch is harder than people think and there’s an easy to show this: Tier list placement + difficulty of piloting character is a pretty solid predicator of representation and win rate. Who’s the most successful character in the game as defined by win rate + representation? Did you guess ROB? He’s S tier and he’s easy to play. Now take game and watch, about as good as Rob, not nearly as high a win rate or representation because he’s not easy to play at high level. An ok game and watch can do a lot of damage to random ppl online but to play game and watch optimally, your nair strings have to be mostly frame perfect against frame 2 and 3 air dodgers and GW requires rapid decision making that you don’t experience the same way with most other characters. He seems easy to play because things like UpB oos, upair and chef at ledge are so simple and carry him so far but the difference between a decent game and watch on elite smash and one taking down tournaments is light years. His nair is not easy, it’s not like a palutena nair the way ppl think where it’s predictable hitbox and knockback angle.
This guy is underestimating how hard it is to master Lucas wayyyy too much. He has many weaknesses that are hard to work around, and you need to know complex techs to just true combo his nair and use DJC
lucas is definitely s tier with all his frame perfect tech like the zair thing and the invincible up smash cancelled aerials, no one does it because of the difficulty and instead they could just learn ness magnet combos and win with the better and easier earthbound character
I appreciate Joker getting placed in A. Lots of players say Arsene is a win button, but they're ignoring how technical solo Joker is, and how he has to work for kills.
yeah, i really hate people calling joker an easy character he really isn't at a technical level it makes me mad when they compare him to aegis or mario because there's absolutely no way he's in that kind of category
I feel your pain, I have mained mk for 2 years now, most pro players who don't play mk or don't like mk don't really understand where his depth lies. His combo game really is mario but much harder. Imo he's on the same level as sheik because like sheik he has kill power if you learn you confirms and follow ups, his offstage routing is tough but when you learn it, it's great. Meta knight has always been big work for little result until you really get to a high skill level
I really think a character difficulty tier list is substantially more useful (and interesting) than the per-move tier lists that ESAM is doing. However, in both cases I feel like you jump straight into the task, instead of investing a bit more time into defining your ranking criteria better. Sure, you said you are ranking based on how hard it is to master a character, but what does that mean? Hard technically / hard to discover the optimal game plan? How does this relate to punishability?
Dude you are hard capping if you think hero is harder to play then Robin. Hero has like 10 options to kill at like 40-90% sometimes lower. Only thing keeping Robin there would be like forward aerial, hero can just use his better projectiles and psyche up dash so many things easier with hero
most of, if not all of hero's projectiles are reactable, especially menu since you can see it pop up and just jump or shield. At an advanced level it is much harder to do well with hero, because of the mediocre frame data, exploitable gimmick and recovery, etc. robin has a busted side b, some of the best aerials in the game with the strong sword (i forget what it's called) this is all coming from someone who's played robin a lot, so I'm not biased. hero is just harder to do well with at a top level. maybe not as much technical skill is needed, but the hardest thing in smash is the mind games and neutral, not book footstool combos. hero is harder
@@connerfiliatreault8907 As a Hero main I agree with this. Plus his MP meter management is tough to manage as you have to hit the opponent to gain some MP. This is why I tell people Hero is bad online.
@@log_wb yeah, and the argument with having "like 10 kill options starting at 40" is stupid, because they're all either impossible to hit on someone good or they require psych up/oomph
Pika that high is kinda crazy, easy broken Oos with bair, braindead neutral against most characters with neutral B. I would still put him at A or B tier but def not S
i've seen so many people comment lucas should be higher up definitely more than any other character. i can't do his zair strings for the life of me shit difficult
I was gonna say Palu should be 1 tier higher after all the nerfs she got but then I just realized that sometimes I literally just tried to grab my opponent from like half stage and was surprised it didn't work as it used to. Privilege at its finest.
For example, playing as Inkling is absolute torture because you win neutral all day long and still lose because they have so few reliable kill confitms. I love Inkling but it takes too much mental fortitude to win with them consistently.
About Sora I'm a sora main. I've been delving into sora recently-ish, and I genuinely think he's a low s-tier character for hardness. His noop and foops and general idj shenanigans are fucking insanely hard to pull off consistently, especially 2, 3, 4, 5 times in a row. His actual inputs aren't difficult, but because of his funky gravity, his timing is weird. But the thing is, sora has possibly one of the most consistently good kits in a character I've seen since Steve. His mixups are insane, and I think in a couple months, maybe a year, he'll have a top 10 spot in the meta
I've spent the past 7 months trying to master falco and now I feel like I have a really good understanding of the character and I don't often loose with him. I always told myself he was a hard character and that the 7 months were worth it. turns out I just suck ass and am playing a easy character with easy combos and could never pick up a character like peach or ice climbers 😔 might as well just be a online Mac player
Falco is not easy, are there more robs or more falcos? How many top robs? How many top falcos? Most meta characters are fast or long range or both, Falco is slow and donest have save options.
My mains are Plant and Aegis and it FEELS like Aegis is harder because if you play on autopilot you get read and will straight up lose. It's harder to do mix ups with her. With plant its just you gotta figure out creative ways to slap your opponent with your balls, man
Yeah I also don't think aegis is easy. Pyra doesn't have a lot of crazy tech besides footstools and wavelanding to boost her speed, so I get her being easy to master, but mythra loves back air combos and those are much more difficult to hit consistently.
I agree with your placement of Pokemon Trainer. PT is difficult in some ways, but very easy in other ways. Yes, you have to learn 3 characters, but they're all pretty easy to learn. They don't have much difficult tech or highly precise inputs (compared to actually hard characters). What about learning 3 times as many matchups? This is not as bad as you'd think, because you can stay on your BEST matchup most of the time. For example if Squirtle struggles against Peach, forget it. Go Ivysaur. Solo maining other characters means ACTUALLY learning the bad matchups with no way around it. And keep in mind, your opponent ALSO has to know 3 matchups when playing against you, and they are not used to switching matchups mid-game, while you do it every game. But Squirtle is light and can't kill, Ivysaur is slow, and Charizard is a heavy?? Actually, PT can abuse the strengths of each Pokemon without an equal amount of weaknesses. You're at low %? Use Squirtle and rack up damage. Being light is actually a GOOD thing because you can't get combo'd as well, and you won't die at low % anyway. You're at high %? Use Charizard and your life just got extended. Your kill confirm stopped working because the opponent's % is too high? Switch to another Pokemon and you have a whole new set of kill confirms. Good luck to your opponent who has to instantly remember which setups to avoid (notice how many times PT mains, especially Leffen, switch Pokemon and immediately catch the opponent off guard with a kill). On top of all that, ALL THREE Pokemon have kill throws and safe kill setups. Squirtle has down tilt -> tech chase or jab lock -> Fsmash/Dsmash at around 80%+, and back throw at REALLY high %. Ivysaur is ridiculous (giant up air, giant dair, back throw, down throw, vine whip, and many can be combo'd into from razor leaf) and Charizard is ridiculous (bair, fair, up air, instant up smash, fthrow, up throw, ftilt, flare blitz, up b). Characters that would much prefer to kill with a throw (Ness) or prefer to kill with a specific attack (Fox), struggle here as their kill options are easier to avoid, and you have to play much more intelligently and make better reads to actually get the kill. TL;DR pt is not that hard to learn, and many of pt's unique qualities actually make pt easier to play.
Agreed that Sephiroth has a high skill ceiling. I'm so glad he's in the game and love leveling up with him, bit by bit. Ride or die main. #OneWingLetsGooo
agree completely. i secondary seph and man is he easy to mess up with but, it is so damn satisfying to combo with and end with an offstage octo…. But very stressful when you just get absolutely juggled around lmfao
@@thatoneguyinthetunic octo is broken off stage? You mean the move that you can just air doge and get a free SD from your opponent? Lmao and even if you kill someone with it off stage, you are dead too. Off stage it really is like puffs rest on stage (Ofc rest is harder to hit) if you don't connect it, you are donezos. 6sek endlag, enough time for cloud to charge his limit do 2 taunts and up smash him it feels like and again off stage you are dead no matter what (as a kill move not recovery but I hardly think the recovery part was your point)
As a hard core sora main i Only had trouble with the idj nair loops,but started to mix combos with them till this day i'm still learning and hope to compete in high level tournaments for next year.i've even considered to pay for coaching and start youtube lol
Riddles doesn't know what he's doing with quite a few of these characters. He dropped Meta Knight in C without even saying anything lol. Meta Knight is harder than Kazuya. The combos this character has are so hard pro players think they're too inconsistent for the character to even be viable, calling the combos "RNG."
Greninja is much harder than u said in my opinion No ots option Combo doesnt work really well : up smash broken, nair dash attack doesnt work on floatties, bair and up air Can both miss for no reason, Neutral is kind of tricky : have to Space all of ur move, no dash grab Reco without hitbox means u Can try to edge Gard him for free And u have like one of the worst frame data in the entire game that means u cant Mash in disadvantage and u lose every single random interaction like jump middle stage with an aerial I Hope my message is true cause i feel like this cheat is really hard
I think Little Mac deserves to be a little higher, if we're taking having to outplay opponents into account I feel Mac at a top level needs to be very careful and have insane fundamentals to even begin going somewhere in their games. Sure online Fsmash spamming is a thing but it's online and most characters can get away with it
That's different, he's hard to win with but that's because he's a bad character. He's talking about how hard it is to master a character, their specific techs and combos etc. Fundamentals is not character specific
@@alexboisvert9288 na the video was inconsistent on the criteria, he also said falco is easy but has hard neutral, and neutral is fundamentals, thus mac would actually be hard
@@jordanhelverson2198 those are all execution checks though… which Lucina doesn’t have like that he’s not some extremely technical character, but he’s not Lucina level… with all due respect
I feel like why some people think sora is bad because no one is really doing soras optimized combos I feel the same for rob not a lot of people do his combos but everyone knows he’s really good
As a fox main I can say when you're labbing for real it's like mental stamina training. You have to process the game so fast the entire time. But when you play another character after doing it for so long it's like everything mentally is cut in half and it's almost relaxing 🤣
I agree, as a fellow fox main, his combos are tricky when you try to do big strings and neutral is hard because of his speed, his offstage game is limited due to his recovery and most often has to think about stage prescensce.
@@adamcallandrillo8702 yeah but once you get his combos down they average about 40%-50%. I have a couple where if I get one read in between a combo it's a 0-80%
Kazuya is hard to play but the problem is that he is also easy because he is broken in some ways that you don't have problem killing. His full potential is in fact difficult to get but he would be so busted.
Funny enough me and friends were talking about this the other day but Kazuya is not a hard character, he has some hard stuff sure but overall he’s easy, he has a large move list but you,re honestly not going to uses that much of it just like in tekken. I think he’s an easy character to pick up outside of lighting. And even then I see more people pull that off online than other more adv stuff for other characters
I rewally want to see someone that is really good at reads and adaptation play Yoshi. He has a moved to counter anything you throw at him and can get oiut of combos and is easy to combo with. Has a projectile, really good recovery. His only weakness is against disjoints and getting read because of how telegraphed hsi apporaches are, but if you can mix up your approaches really well then youll be unstoppable. He has a commaqnd grab. In an alternate universe, Mkleo mains Yoshi and makes him look broken
Tier lists on this subject that had ICs any lower than 2nd tier bracket I feel miss the point of the tier list. I remember players like [redacted player whose name is a number] who would place them at like C tier just on the basis that their ceiling isn't worth it and so they aren't "strong". Playing ICs anything takes fundamentally changing how you think about the game. You have to learn different parry timings so Nana is on queue and doesn't get hit by stray projectiles, little things like shield hitlag make a huge difference, even their "crutch move" (squall hammer) is very punishable if you don't know when you can use it, and you have to know how desynchs work out of it and other obscure lag frames for desynchs in general. They're also Hella light (Nana is even lighter than Popo) so you need to be extra careful about mistakes. You even have to know which stages make Nana's AI freak out and make her useless even in neutral (TnC is especially a problem) At least Riddles had the honesty to put them where they should be.
Personally I’d swap your falcon and sephiroth placement. Seph is such a straight forward character with a high cheese meter.. falcon’s skill ceiling feels way higher.
As a banjo main, he’s high A Each hit of Bair sets up for something different Tipper up air sets up into confirms (but are extremely hard to hit) Then he has Kazooie cancel tech / Bregal blaster Multishots. Nair and BB ladders ladders 99% if banjos don’t use any of that tech. (Outside if drag down Nair) Even the best banjo, OwlBBs or Skew can only hit the tech on occasion because of how execution heavy the character is
I love how Marss came in and said L + Bozo then leaves lmao I don’t think Marss realized the tier list is based on how hard the character is because Marss says the character really hard but she’s also bad
Extremely late to this, but MK is actually very difficult to learn, bottom of A tier minimum IMO. Riddles just heavily undersold him, don't feel bad about yourself and keep trying!
@@KirbyBro I have most definitely not been playing smash consistently for the past 8 months, but Meta Knight is definitely a hard character to be good with. I played Pyra/Mythra like once and got to 9mil GSP-
It took me a long time to master the Luigi 0 to death. It’s not just one combo that works for every character. you also haft to adjust the combo based on weight and size, and some characters haft to be at specific percents a little over 0 for it to work. I think he deserves a higher spot. Nothing above B though
As a long time DK main, I think DK should honestly be in the low end of C tiet. Mainly because at high levels it becomes way harder to deal with Disadvantage state and neutral with this character. Sure a lot of his base moves are execute, but getting around disadvantage and learning all the advanced tech needed for all of his mixups makes him harder to use than falcon in a lot of matchups.
@@woah05 flaws or not, it still adds to the difficulty of execution at high levels. Try pulling off standard bread and butters on a very skilled player and you'll see how much more you have to outplay the opponent. Riddles even said that execution does play a factor
G&W is baby mode. It's just the meta isnt really favoured towards him. He doesnt do too great against Byleth/Palu/Roy. He's got good juggles/frametrapping with his upair, good OOS, gets a ton of perfect from grab/nair at low percent, active hitboxes which help with edgeguarding and baby mode ledgetrapping with dsmash and bacon with both combo into kill move, and invincible upsmash. Baby mode character
Just because a character isn’t that good or doesn’t have amazing results doesn’t mean the character is hard. Little mac is bad, but he is simple and easy to play. Sheik is a really good character but is extremely difficult to use.
I thought the same. Thinking about it a bit more I can see why you would put him on the easier side, but since the list was supposed to be about getting the most out of it this feels very out of place. I also omega disagree with Pikachu being super hard but I've seen a lot of pros say that so I guess there has to be something to it.
The fact that you used a clip from Hbox's stream where he popped off (despite the clip being not hype) when you talked about aegis made it better imo lmao
diddy's popgun cancels and wavebounces are insane, i'd say that puts him in S or at least higher in A but lots of people straight up don't realize it's a thing
true but a lot of characters have really deep tech that just don’t get used that much. like needle fidgeting with sheik for example and all the movement tech you can do with needle charge. and it’s definitely really powerful but it’s just generally not needed so you don’t see sheik players using it extensively
I agree with almost everything, my only concerns are Lucas not being in at least a (DJCZ strings, wave bounce etc), toon link being under ylink who is considerably more spammable, rob in e tier (rob is simply not that easy, he’s more so c tier than e), Steve not being in s tier (nothing genuinely cheats for him and he arguably has the highest skill ceiling along with peach and ice climbers, he’s not as hard but he definitely has the relatively steep learning curve I mean we still haven’t seen him at his max potential). finally I don’t think kazuya is in s tier, you could make an argument for that, but simply because of ewgf, which is one of the cheesiest combo moves in the game, he should be relegated to the top of a tier. This is not to say he isn’t hard or has a ridiculously high skill ceiling it’s just that once you have that, you have most of his game plan in place (ewgf is kazuyas staple move).
Plant’s game plan and moveset is relatively simple. But the character has no combos, no good approaching options, only one good on-stage zoning tool (poison breath), and in general he is low-mid tier at best. But his ledge-trapping and shield break punish is definitely top ten best in the game. I have been trying to play this character aggressively but I am getting rewarded more when I camp. I’d at least put him with Olimar.
@@jo4sh0w76 Plant main speaking here. Spaced Bair is quite safe, as is Ptooie (though it is hard to properly land it at times). Down tilt is good for poking at people, and the first hit of F-tilt, while not safe per say, makes people hold up their shield because of F-tilt 2’s existence. Long-stem Strike is safe at mid-to-long distances, but I wouldn’t rely on it as it’s horrendously unsafe up close. Finally, spaced Fair is alright at poking at shields, too.
I always saw Lucario as hard, as he seems to need to use B-reverse and Wavebounce shenanigans more than other characters. Plus, you have to take into account both enemy percent AND Aura on combos (etc.).
Lucario gets kill confirms with aura cancel from wavebounces and b reverses and they work on all %s and on every character. For example arial b-reverse aura into jump bair is and landing aura into cancel u-smash are both easy true confirms. Sometimes you can also react to rolls you read wrong when airborne because you can catch them with the momentum shift and dont have to input a move that animation locks you. Other than that you dont have much going for you except for ok neutral. Dair out of shield also is underrated. If you pick him up you gotta need to grab a friend and lab out %s and you gotta have a great time even online.
@@GuentersHoerspielstube nah he is hard because his design contradicts the game. High % makes you strong but it also makes you an easy kill. When your aura is gone you are unable to kill and racking up dmg takes ages and high precision without rage and aura
I’ve mained Dr Mario for a few years now. I only play casually with my friends but I’ve definitely put a lot of hours into him. Being told that I should be at his maximum potential already must mean I am astoundingly shit at this game
If this tier list is based on how easy they are at maximum potential, then I think Kirby should be higher. Yes they are cheesy as hell, but technically maximum potential Kirby involves knowing how to use every character's neutral B in their kit.
Kirby definitely has some bonkers normals/aerials that are pretty easy to understand for the most part (with some obvious exceptions in terms of mechanics like dair ride), but I feel like there's actually way more depth to his neutral special than most people give him credit for, especially since it's notoriously used for cheese and it's rare to see people actually consistently use his copy abilities at a high level of play (part of this could be the fact that inhale can be hard to reliably set up). Bonus points if you can actually utilize his hammer's niche uses properly. He seems like a really simple fighter on paper, but I believe there's some room for creativity and optimization (such as the player's ability to reliably inhale and use copy abilities in conjunction with Kirby's kit)
As a previous dr.Mario main. I would say this is 100% accurate. This tier list is based on max potential easiness. And since his max potential is literally nothing, it’s very easy to achieve
Lmao
XD
😂
Dr. Mario's true skill ceiling lies within his ability to convince the federal agents that his medical certification is official
Same idea with ganon
All I’ll say is I usually have to grind a character a bit to get into elite smash, and I literally just won my first 5 games with aegis and got in
I got Ness in elite while taking a dump and having broken joycons
I think you get into elite with less wins if you play with a character less
I literally won one game with aegis and got into elite smash 😂
@@EmptyHand49 💀💀💀
That is because when you never played the character, it's easier to get him on elite, I got PT trainer in elite too by just winning 1 match lmao, so many like that, just winning 2 or 3 and already on elite. Just make sure the number of the GSP is blue and you good to go.
Riddles: Instantly put Bowser at the bottom
Me who main Bowser: "Ok! This tier list is very accurate!"
I was insulted despite 100% knowing it's true
Yeah same for mac
Ayo ever considered making a hype tier list? Seems like a fun thing to do on a stream.
I second this
Fgcs, falcon, anyone else thay can do dope shit while not being considered a top tier imo
He'd definitely put Steve on S tier 😎
@@LoliPeeSlurper Of course! He can make a giant F!
For me all the "shotos" (fighting game characters) are s tier
I’m glad that Riddles acknowledges how difficult Rosa is, she’s actually super difficult to use. She’s one of my favorites to play and have counterpicked people in bracket with her because of matchup inexperience, but she’s so easy to punish and combo that it’s a nightmare. Especially recovering, my goodness.
U gassin it. Rosa is great but nothing with luma. Plus she is light. Bad recovery
@@deadeyez4910 luma can come back quickly, so what’s the issue again?
@@mysteriousdora6914 Luma doesnt come back "quickly" if you play her it takes years and he easily dies with 1 hit and shes bad with luma and worse than Mac without.
@@akeno1730 you obviously dont play her then, if you have such a problem stop letting your luma die so quickly
@@mysteriousdora6914 I play Peach and my brother plays Rosalina with easily 5 - 10k hours across Smash4 - Ultimate and Luma easily dies from a bair, fait, side-b, dash-attack. He dies easily and even got buffed plenty times and even Dabuz dropped her in Ult cause she is so bad, stop arguing about a obvious problem that Rosa is bad and you get probably clapped by a low - mid tier
Riddles loves to justify his picks with “C’mon dude” 😂😂
And "pretty self-explanatory."
And "In my opinion"
I'm no falco main but his placement was kinda odd. The tier list was how hard it was to get the max potential of a character, yet the justification of his placement is that there is a lot in elite. Elite smash isn't the max potential of characters. You even said yourself, that falcos neutral gets harder at top level but he is ranked easier than pissra, the character that barely has to play neutral
i agree with u, luigi
I agree too, i am a falco main and falco is much harder than ehat people think, they think that falco can put any character from 0 to 90 from a combo and thats not true he has a MASSIVE amout of characters hes weak agains and hes recovery is very easy to punish if you dont mix it up a lot, most of the times you get 20 from a combo because of SDI and DI of people, essentially playing against falco is easy is they just go fro grabs and up tilts, using falco is easy, being a GOOD Falco is incredibely hard
fax. go look at a jaxby, caelifera or tilde compilation then go try that in training mode
If the list is about how hard it is to reach a character's maximum potential, than it doesn't matter if they have cheese or not, because having easier options doesn't take away from the complexity of their kit. Just cause shulk has shield art doesn't mean learning to use his other arts gets easier. Having super armor or in smash attacks doesn't make ewgf on kazuya easier. Having a low skill floor and high skill ceiling are two separate factors.
^. Some of his picks are confusing the crud out of me right now. Like how can Mario be _that_ high when he put Luigi at the bottom?
Also, as a technical R.O.B. main, I disagree with his placement. Yeah, the dtilt cheese is pretty dumb, but has he seen Lucretio's cracked out combos?
i agree, link may have nair, but to master his kit is another challenge, mastering niche arrow usage, rang in advantage and disadvantage, and how hard u press it and the angle, recovering which has versatility especially compared to the cast, bomb is also super complex more than most people think, but would take too long to explain every use, and then his bair 1 use, nair also, up b, forward throw and down throw, all his throws tbh, his jabs, down tilt, even dash attack, he got too much going on, hes a character u can either play very simple and plain with just good neutral, or u can be very tech heavy which would burn out your brain too fast, so it's about finding a balance
Zelda’s harder than riddles gives credit for if you take into more of her advanced tech, tightest teleport cancels, phantom displacement, phantom canceling.
This is a max potential and considering the spacing and frame execution has to be so perfect it’s at least worth bringing her to c tier, at least
Nah
@@bentoutofshape7829 yah
she takes like a decent amount of skill not only because of all the techs you can do with teleports and knight but also just making her work against pretty much every charcter in mid tier and above shes slow and floaty. if your playing against a half decent player that knows how to juggle someone you might just lose i wish ppl didnt just instantly think about those elite smash zelda players that just abuse online and more players like ven and zelda mains who r putting in soo much work to just make her viable
Absolutely. Using Zelda well in close combat is much harder than with most characters who can just spam aerials or abuse tilts.
9:46 hilarious Cloud summary "Back air, Cross slash, Forward air,.... Charge Limit. I just described the entire character."
and Up-B out of shield.
I honestly think Sephiroth offline is ridiculously hard, it takes so much precision to play that character and do well at a high level it's nuts imo.
Elite Smashers won't understand it but when I go to locals and play somewhat good people it's hard to win man, it sucks that he's like the coolest character in the game because I feel like I have to drop him, if I don't read my opponent majority of the time I lose because his frame-data sucks. Just get out-framed/paced.
Absolutely. There's a reason a ton of pros dropped him.
Sephiroth isn’t even fun for more than like 4 games. I just wanna play the game not be worried about spacing everything perfectly then just get parried and punished anyway. Das why Roy is my boi
I find Sephiroth so unintuitive and I’m glad I’m not the only one
Don't drop Sephiroth his move set is cool despite it being hard as shit lmao
If you’re not precise with Sephiroth you die at sub 100 percent. Sephiroth played to his full potential is definitely on the harder side
ayooo i did not learn double jump cancel zair footstool magnet combos with lucas for him to be in c tier lmaooooo. nice list tho
I definitely agree. Lucas should be in B tier at least
@@Teyyvry a*
In retrospect this list is borderline insane with some spots
The meta knight pick is a little wack… character has a super high ceiling
The Miis are so difficult to play that they get their own tier because Riddles doesn't know how to classify them.
Miis are so fun to play
Meta knight at least belongs in a tier. Having to instant double jump and fast fall slightly and short hop jump is to just do combos is pretty insane imo
True his combos are hard and very technical but I think his neutral and recovery are easy
Nah
@@sullivanish dude lots of characters neutral and recovery are really easy lmao
I agree, his ladders put him at bottom of A at the minimum. He has a good OOS in theory with Dair but... it's Dair. However I can see why Riddles put him lower. Not only is his recovery good, but if you know how to play him, an offstage battle is almost always a win.
@@leothesleepingdog6055 I meant in terms of disadvantage cuz he can just cloak to get advantage and even sneak a kill
Peach has been my ride or die since Brawl. She’s so much fun to play and with all the tech you can do, and with more being discovered, the sky truly is the limit... She will never get boring 🍑💙
Dude I envy how much you like peach, to have mained her since Brawl. I wish I had a character that I liked playing that much. How did you decide on maining her?
no main I love that she can float, turnips are fun to play with and they can snipe recoveries. Just really drawn to her character design overall. She’s not fast per se, but she’s quick and can put on pressure like no other. And I love the fact that she is almost impossible to hit out of her parasol, so elegant yet so evasive 😂 A classy lady that can also get it done. Also side tilt, N-air and B-air are life 💙
@@Oceanfreak6 I see! I have to agree Peach has such an interesting and unique design. And Lol the parasol drives me nuts sometimes xD. Personally, I guess I haven't put much time into Peach because it's kind of intimidating to learn all the combos and tech she has. She's really cool though!
no main Yeah the combos come with time and practice. She’s always had a steep learning curve and it only inclined since Ultimate. But once you get the float cancel aerials down she turns into a beast. It’s crazy to see your opponents go from 0%to 68%+ in 2 seconds flat with four or five moves. She’s not a character for everyone but if you love her, or are willing to stick it thru, the rewards are boundless.
Same here!! I first mained her in Brawl then Melee (I had Brawl first then Melee) and couldn't stop since lol. I know some of the advance techs she had but my execution of them is not there at all lmaoo
Saying cheese makes the character easier while putting Kazuya in STier is the biggest cope I've seen of riddles in A long time
I think if someone were to utilize all of the tech Lucas has to offer then he could definitely upset some people. He has some crazy precise tech that not really anyone has fully utilized in a major before. Watch blucas v samsora to see what I mean.. Just my opinion tho 🤷♂️
Speaking of upsets..
Max potential Lucas is the hardest character in the game by far. He is just in his own tier of difficulty and would be almost as broken as Steve.
@@-en_x3 I've been a Lucas main for 4 years and this is cap. Even at top potential I don't think he would reach top 15. There is only so much stuff you can do with djcz.
Lucas is definitely harder than all the B-tiers. You have to be insanely skilled to get Lucas to his max potential.
I think you might be underestimating the rest of the characters in B-tier. What makes Lucas so difficult that you have to be insanely skilled at? I would like to hear your take.
@@DurzoGuile you have to master nair/ dair loops,you need lots of reads to win, you need perfect spacing,you need to be able to djcz consistently, he's very a
Slow and can have a hard time recovering, and he has lots of endlang on his moves, he can't land and gets juggled forever which is why he has a horrible disadvantage state, and finally his hitboxes are quite small and he struggles to kill
@@strickshot @Oliver Jacobsen
Precisely. Not to mention Magnet movement, and a necessity for wavebouncing. Most characters don't need that kind of tech, but to make Lucas viable, it's a must. And mostly what got me to comment was seeing Corrin in B-tier. I love Corrin, but they have little to no sauce at all. They have one of the most basic movesets excluding Side-B. And even Side-B has a small learning curve. Most swordfighting characters have a small skill ceiling when it comes to the fighters specifically. Sure, you need to be good at the game to play them effectively, but if we're talking about skill ceilings pertaining to the character's abilities? None of their individual moves are applicable to a high skill ceiling. Whereas Lucas, who although is easy in casual environments, has a considerably high skill ceiling and potential for tech and saucey combos. Basically all I'm saying is, Lucas doesn't deserve C-tier.
@@Cinder36 If we're talking pure techskill, I can definately see your point, but if techskill is the sole determining factor in your book, then Riddles' placement on Sephiroth makes 0 sense, because he basically has 0 techskill besides fundamentals.
Not saying Lucas is deserved/undeserved placement, but take this tier list with a grain of salt, while figuring out what he means by certain characters placement.
@@DurzoGuile It's definitely mostly techskill, but I'd argue that Lucas combos in general have a lot of potential. But nobody plays him, so nobody knows. That could probably go for a lot of the characters. But he also said nothing about Lucas. He just said:"Lucas? C" lol. Probably because most people think Ness and Lucas are too similar to seperate, but I disagree.
luigi easier than pyra mythra the most insane shit i’ve ever heard
Only luigi mains know the true struggle
all u have to do with luigi is learn the 0 to death and you automatically get 11mil gsp. Dude requires no neutral/fundies
@@shaggywali9575 who cares about gsp? I’m talking bout top lvl play. Plus his neutral is pretty trash so it’s hard to get a grab anyway
@@johnyoung9708 best combo breaker with down b, cheese with up b. Character is for glue sniffers
@@shaggywali9575 he has more options then just grab you realize that right?
I think Robin at least harder than banjo considering how many combos techniques they need to know, short hop footstool, b reverse (well, banjo does this a lot to), switching between bronze and levin for combo, phantom footstool, combo setups, discard dribble, etc.
I'm robin, bayo, and chrom main
Hard agree with you man, Robin is way more technical, and has to earn more, and have to be pinpoint with neutral and edge guarding characters like banjo
I don’t know Banjo is very hard. As I Banjo main for a long time a lot of his techniques are way to hard for me to use. Like his neutral B 3 times to forward air. Also his recovery requires a lot of skill a b-reversing
Agree with this. There's a lot of tech Robin needs to know from B-reversing, wave bouncing, and footstools. Resource management and discard set ups as well
@@snuit4744 With Banjo I recommend backflip then B-reverse into Breegul Blaster. It's much easier.
Meta Knight not being higher is the biggest snub here. There's a reason there's only like 2 good meta knights. Sure, he has good recovery, and some privileged special moves, but his combos are very difficult and his hotboxes are very inconsistent. Also, that sword is SO small 🤦🏼♂️
I agree he should be higher but where would you place him? Personally I would put him in A tier
@@ChiefZelios I could see that! I think bring high in B would be my minimum placement for Metaknight
@@alexmusselman7090 Which characters do you play?
@@ChiefZelios I am not particularly good at this game, but my best three are be byleth, ike, and captain falcon (in that order). Metaknight is fun. I play him a lot, but I suck with him 🤷🏼♂️ but it's fun to teleport and forward smash in neutral.
@@alexmusselman7090 ah ok I use Shiek and Meta Knight. Love the combos
I don't think sora's hard because his moveset isn't good, I think sora's hard because his best setups are frame tight and nailing that online or offline is hard as hell
Moveset isn't good?
@@tigertian1251 He said he's hard and he's not good, so that means he has a bad toolkit a.k.a moveset
@@TrueReverse74 You right
I really think he's hard because he's weird. He's floaty af and has to win a ton of neutral without any insane combos.
Being really floaty in general generally makes your character harder because it makes your air movement so absurdly important and percise. Mewtwo is very similar albeit even more difficult because he has low air acceleration and high air speed while Sora is the opposite and has a slightly higher fall speed than Sora but still really low.
Being really floaty just makes air movement unwieldy and harder to master with Mewtwo probably having the hardest air movement in the game but Sora is also definitely up there.
As a Mega Man main, I’ve grown so accustomed to the character that everyone else feels difficult to play now
Where do I start maining megaman i used to main him in smash 4 cuz of jablocks but I'm lost now bruh
the whole chat saying “terry harder than lucas ?!?“ speaks volumes abt it lmfao bro trippin
(brawler main) bro i waited the entire damn video to see how hard he thought brawler was and then he said "fuck the miis" and did not elaborate any further
feels like some characters were judged based on how hard they are to be "workable", while others were judged based on how hard it is to reach their "max potential". though honestly, considering how subjective this whole topic is, i feel like this issue, along with others, was pretty much inevitable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Exactly
My richter really put Luigi behind Pyra/Mithra??? Crazy.
As a Yoshi main, I whole heartedly agree with what you said. You can get elite smash with the character by just spamming Fair and Nair basically, but once you start facing decent opponents who know the matchup, you actually need to learn some stuffs about the game and your character to be less predictable.
So yeah, most Yoshi players are braindead, I use to be too so I know... but playing Yoshi at a decent level does require a bit of skill and knowledge. Still an easy character to pick up tho.
Game and watch is harder than people think and there’s an easy to show this:
Tier list placement + difficulty of piloting character is a pretty solid predicator of representation and win rate. Who’s the most successful character in the game as defined by win rate + representation? Did you guess ROB? He’s S tier and he’s easy to play. Now take game and watch, about as good as Rob, not nearly as high a win rate or representation because he’s not easy to play at high level. An ok game and watch can do a lot of damage to random ppl online but to play game and watch optimally, your nair strings have to be mostly frame perfect against frame 2 and 3 air dodgers and GW requires rapid decision making that you don’t experience the same way with most other characters.
He seems easy to play because things like UpB oos, upair and chef at ledge are so simple and carry him so far but the difference between a decent game and watch on elite smash and one taking down tournaments is light years. His nair is not easy, it’s not like a palutena nair the way ppl think where it’s predictable hitbox and knockback angle.
This guy is underestimating how hard it is to master Lucas wayyyy too much. He has many weaknesses that are hard to work around, and you need to know complex techs to just true combo his nair and use DJC
Lucas needs to be higher, he has some of the most technical and difficult combos in the game
^^^
Highly agree, the Lucas ignorance came out in full force here
I actually wanted to eat my monitor when he put him so low... Wavebouncing itself makes this character instantly s tier difficulty
lucas is definitely s tier with all his frame perfect tech like the zair thing and the invincible up smash cancelled aerials, no one does it because of the difficulty and instead they could just learn ness magnet combos and win with the better and easier earthbound character
lucas mains do do those things but i agree
I appreciate Joker getting placed in A. Lots of players say Arsene is a win button, but they're ignoring how technical solo Joker is, and how he has to work for kills.
yeah, i really hate people calling joker an easy character he really isn't at a technical level it makes me mad when they compare him to aegis or mario because there's absolutely no way he's in that kind of category
I think they should put him in b tier Arsene is such a broken cumback tool and he has also a broken counter that also a reflectors
Waited the whole vid to see what he thought about meta knight, but meta knight just teleports into C with no mention at 19:09🥺
Same
I feel your pain, I have mained mk for 2 years now, most pro players who don't play mk or don't like mk don't really understand where his depth lies. His combo game really is mario but much harder. Imo he's on the same level as sheik because like sheik he has kill power if you learn you confirms and follow ups, his offstage routing is tough but when you learn it, it's great. Meta knight has always been big work for little result until you really get to a high skill level
@@adamcallandrillo8702 man same. Top players shit on mk on how he's Easy but they havent even tried to do the combos
I'm confused if this is a list for execution difficulty or gameplan difficulty...
I think it’s a combination of both
Theres some elusive factor that i dont know how to describe, that people are mixing in with other factors that make a characters difficult and or bad
So is Riddles
Pythra not in E tier?
I really think a character difficulty tier list is substantially more useful (and interesting) than the per-move tier lists that ESAM is doing. However, in both cases I feel like you jump straight into the task, instead of investing a bit more time into defining your ranking criteria better. Sure, you said you are ranking based on how hard it is to master a character, but what does that mean? Hard technically / hard to discover the optimal game plan? How does this relate to punishability?
Leffen did his purely off how hard peak tech skill is with the character. This tier list had very inconsistent ranking criteria
Says it will be about maximum potential - calls heavies braindead because of how easy they are to pick up.
Dude you are hard capping if you think hero is harder to play then Robin. Hero has like 10 options to kill at like 40-90% sometimes lower. Only thing keeping Robin there would be like forward aerial, hero can just use his better projectiles and psyche up dash so many things easier with hero
most of, if not all of hero's projectiles are reactable, especially menu since you can see it pop up and just jump or shield. At an advanced level it is much harder to do well with hero, because of the mediocre frame data, exploitable gimmick and recovery, etc. robin has a busted side b, some of the best aerials in the game with the strong sword (i forget what it's called) this is all coming from someone who's played robin a lot, so I'm not biased. hero is just harder to do well with at a top level. maybe not as much technical skill is needed, but the hardest thing in smash is the mind games and neutral, not book footstool combos. hero is harder
@@connerfiliatreault8907 As a Hero main I agree with this. Plus his MP meter management is tough to manage as you have to hit the opponent to gain some MP. This is why I tell people Hero is bad online.
@@log_wb yeah, and the argument with having "like 10 kill options starting at 40" is stupid, because they're all either impossible to hit on someone good or they require psych up/oomph
Sora being bass aged like milk left out due 2 years
Kazuya in S tier and Mewtwo in B tier? lol hell no. biased as hell
Pika that high is kinda crazy, easy broken Oos with bair, braindead neutral against most characters with neutral B. I would still put him at A or B tier but def not S
Lucas is easily S tier, 99% of Lucas players can’t even functionally use his best tool which is zair strings or zair ledge get ups
i've seen so many people comment lucas should be higher up definitely more than any other character. i can't do his zair strings for the life of me shit difficult
I was gonna say Palu should be 1 tier higher after all the nerfs she got but then I just realized that sometimes I literally just tried to grab my opponent from like half stage and was surprised it didn't work as it used to. Privilege at its finest.
My man really put duck hunt in top tier and meta knight in c tier💀
I'm surprised how high Sephiroth is. His kit is so good as long as you have good timing and spacing. Ahh, see, that's why.
Man, just to keep my peach tech working, i gotta lab at least once per week... But it's totally worth when you do them against other opponents
Glad you touch on the mental aspect of character difficulty because it does play a big factor with some
For example, playing as Inkling is absolute torture because you win neutral all day long and still lose because they have so few reliable kill confitms. I love Inkling but it takes too much mental fortitude to win with them consistently.
Not all zoners are easy to use, and megaman is sadly one of them.
Another reason is because of reflectors
About Sora
I'm a sora main. I've been delving into sora recently-ish, and I genuinely think he's a low s-tier character for hardness. His noop and foops and general idj shenanigans are fucking insanely hard to pull off consistently, especially 2, 3, 4, 5 times in a row. His actual inputs aren't difficult, but because of his funky gravity, his timing is weird.
But the thing is, sora has possibly one of the most consistently good kits in a character I've seen since Steve. His mixups are insane, and I think in a couple months, maybe a year, he'll have a top 10 spot in the meta
lol super wack list but i guess everyones would be , it is all relative
I've spent the past 7 months trying to master falco and now I feel like I have a really good understanding of the character and I don't often loose with him. I always told myself he was a hard character and that the 7 months were worth it. turns out I just suck ass and am playing a easy character with easy combos and could never pick up a character like peach or ice climbers 😔 might as well just be a online Mac player
Falco is not easy, are there more robs or more falcos? How many top robs? How many top falcos? Most meta characters are fast or long range or both, Falco is slow and donest have save options.
@@joseramonpenamercedes3709 I'm being sarcastic
My mains are Plant and Aegis and it FEELS like Aegis is harder because if you play on autopilot you get read and will straight up lose. It's harder to do mix ups with her. With plant its just you gotta figure out creative ways to slap your opponent with your balls, man
Yeah I also don't think aegis is easy. Pyra doesn't have a lot of crazy tech besides footstools and wavelanding to boost her speed, so I get her being easy to master, but mythra loves back air combos and those are much more difficult to hit consistently.
Kazuya S is funny.. there's several players in top 15 who can play him. And well at that. Tea is a monster.
I agree with your placement of Pokemon Trainer. PT is difficult in some ways, but very easy in other ways.
Yes, you have to learn 3 characters, but they're all pretty easy to learn. They don't have much difficult tech or highly precise inputs (compared to actually hard characters).
What about learning 3 times as many matchups? This is not as bad as you'd think, because you can stay on your BEST matchup most of the time.
For example if Squirtle struggles against Peach, forget it. Go Ivysaur. Solo maining other characters means ACTUALLY learning the bad matchups with no way around it. And keep in mind, your opponent ALSO has to know 3 matchups when playing against you, and they are not used to switching matchups mid-game, while you do it every game.
But Squirtle is light and can't kill, Ivysaur is slow, and Charizard is a heavy??
Actually, PT can abuse the strengths of each Pokemon without an equal amount of weaknesses.
You're at low %? Use Squirtle and rack up damage. Being light is actually a GOOD thing because you can't get combo'd as well, and you won't die at low % anyway.
You're at high %? Use Charizard and your life just got extended.
Your kill confirm stopped working because the opponent's % is too high? Switch to another Pokemon and you have a whole new set of kill confirms. Good luck to your opponent who has to instantly remember which setups to avoid (notice how many times PT mains, especially Leffen, switch Pokemon and immediately catch the opponent off guard with a kill).
On top of all that, ALL THREE Pokemon have kill throws and safe kill setups.
Squirtle has down tilt -> tech chase or jab lock -> Fsmash/Dsmash at around 80%+, and back throw at REALLY high %. Ivysaur is ridiculous (giant up air, giant dair, back throw, down throw, vine whip, and many can be combo'd into from razor leaf) and Charizard is ridiculous (bair, fair, up air, instant up smash, fthrow, up throw, ftilt, flare blitz, up b).
Characters that would much prefer to kill with a throw (Ness) or prefer to kill with a specific attack (Fox), struggle here as their kill options are easier to avoid, and you have to play much more intelligently and make better reads to actually get the kill.
TL;DR pt is not that hard to learn, and many of pt's unique qualities actually make pt easier to play.
I love this comment 😍 PT mains for life 🧬
Hardest part about PT is utilizing all 3 in unison. Neither of the 3 are really that hard to use. They just all 3 are different archetypes.
Watched the whole time to wait for the miis then I get slammed 🗿
Am i the only one who's shocked by Lucas's place on the list ? Overall cool video :)
He should be at S or top of A
@@Cutzerella03 lol
@@darylsdog9521 Lucas is low high tier/high tier/ solo viable
@@Cutzerella03 how tf do you practice zair strings shits impossible
Agreed that Sephiroth has a high skill ceiling. I'm so glad he's in the game and love leveling up with him, bit by bit. Ride or die main. #OneWingLetsGooo
agree completely. i secondary seph and man is he easy to mess up with but, it is so damn satisfying to combo with and end with an offstage octo….
But very stressful when you just get absolutely juggled around lmfao
I'm _hot garbage_ with him but I don't care, I adore that he's in the game at all.
I wonder what makes him hard to play octoslash is broken of stage its so free
@@thatoneguyinthetunic there's more to a character than one move
@@thatoneguyinthetunic octo is broken off stage? You mean the move that you can just air doge and get a free SD from your opponent? Lmao and even if you kill someone with it off stage, you are dead too. Off stage it really is like puffs rest on stage (Ofc rest is harder to hit) if you don't connect it, you are donezos. 6sek endlag, enough time for cloud to charge his limit do 2 taunts and up smash him it feels like and again off stage you are dead no matter what (as a kill move not recovery but I hardly think the recovery part was your point)
kazuya s tier is ultra cap
As a hard core sora main i Only had trouble with the idj nair loops,but started to mix combos with them till this day i'm still learning and hope to compete in high level tournaments for next year.i've even considered to pay for coaching and start youtube lol
Drop sora
@@mapa2161 naww I think i'm fine,Idc if hes bad im still gonna use him
@@Clousano it’s not about is he’s good or bad the world would just be better with less Sora players
@@mapa2161 I guess agree from your point a view
Seeing Sora play is awesome I like watching his moveset
Riddles doesn't know what he's doing with quite a few of these characters. He dropped Meta Knight in C without even saying anything lol. Meta Knight is harder than Kazuya. The combos this character has are so hard pro players think they're too inconsistent for the character to even be viable, calling the combos "RNG."
Greninja is much harder than u said in my opinion
No ots option
Combo doesnt work really well : up smash broken, nair dash attack doesnt work on floatties, bair and up air Can both miss for no reason,
Neutral is kind of tricky : have to Space all of ur move, no dash grab
Reco without hitbox means u Can try to edge Gard him for free
And u have like one of the worst frame data in the entire game that means u cant Mash in disadvantage and u lose every single random interaction like jump middle stage with an aerial
I Hope my message is true cause i feel like this cheat is really hard
agreed
"No bias of course" then Completely go off his experiences.
You put kazuya up there? Thats so cute 😂
Banjos placement may be s tier due to breegal cancels . One of the hardest techs in the game .
i feel so good about myself as a bayo main now 💀
Nah Bayo is mad easy
I think Little Mac deserves to be a little higher, if we're taking having to outplay opponents into account I feel Mac at a top level needs to be very careful and have insane fundamentals to even begin going somewhere in their games. Sure online Fsmash spamming is a thing but it's online and most characters can get away with it
That's different, he's hard to win with but that's because he's a bad character. He's talking about how hard it is to master a character, their specific techs and combos etc.
Fundamentals is not character specific
@@alexboisvert9288 na the video was inconsistent on the criteria, he also said falco is easy but has hard neutral, and neutral is fundamentals, thus mac would actually be hard
ain’t no way Greninja is average difficulty… below Lucina??? damn
Greninja is gimmicky af. It's way easier to cheese with that character than Lucina.
What about Greninja is hard? Down tilt combos, dash attack combos, and drag down up airs into a free tech chase is really basic lol
@@jordanhelverson2198 those are all execution checks though… which Lucina doesn’t have like that
he’s not some extremely technical character, but he’s not Lucina level… with all due respect
I feel like why some people think sora is bad because no one is really doing soras optimized combos I feel the same for rob not a lot of people do his combos but everyone knows he’s really good
As a fox main I can say when you're labbing for real it's like mental stamina training. You have to process the game so fast the entire time. But when you play another character after doing it for so long it's like everything mentally is cut in half and it's almost relaxing 🤣
I agree, as a fellow fox main, his combos are tricky when you try to do big strings and neutral is hard because of his speed, his offstage game is limited due to his recovery and most often has to think about stage prescensce.
@@adamcallandrillo8702 yeah but once you get his combos down they average about 40%-50%. I have a couple where if I get one read in between a combo it's a 0-80%
Fox is not on the same level as Lucina, shit placing.
@@spreadwuvokay if I remember the video right I think he compared lucina to wolf. I could be wrong tho. But yeah fox and lucina are nothing alike.
@@colinhoeg4728 If Lucina and Wolf are easy then there's no way fox is in that realm
Need more tier lists like this from top players
Kazuya is hard to play but the problem is that he is also easy because he is broken in some ways that you don't have problem killing. His full potential is in fact difficult to get but he would be so busted.
Funny enough me and friends were talking about this the other day but Kazuya is not a hard character, he has some hard stuff sure but overall he’s easy, he has a large move list but you,re honestly not going to uses that much of it just like in tekken. I think he’s an easy character to pick up outside of lighting. And even then I see more people pull that off online than other more adv stuff for other characters
I rewally want to see someone that is really good at reads and adaptation play Yoshi. He has a moved to counter anything you throw at him and can get oiut of combos and is easy to combo with. Has a projectile, really good recovery. His only weakness is against disjoints and getting read because of how telegraphed hsi apporaches are, but if you can mix up your approaches really well then youll be unstoppable. He has a commaqnd grab. In an alternate universe, Mkleo mains Yoshi and makes him look broken
Tier lists on this subject that had ICs any lower than 2nd tier bracket I feel miss the point of the tier list. I remember players like [redacted player whose name is a number] who would place them at like C tier just on the basis that their ceiling isn't worth it and so they aren't "strong". Playing ICs anything takes fundamentally changing how you think about the game. You have to learn different parry timings so Nana is on queue and doesn't get hit by stray projectiles, little things like shield hitlag make a huge difference, even their "crutch move" (squall hammer) is very punishable if you don't know when you can use it, and you have to know how desynchs work out of it and other obscure lag frames for desynchs in general. They're also Hella light (Nana is even lighter than Popo) so you need to be extra careful about mistakes. You even have to know which stages make Nana's AI freak out and make her useless even in neutral (TnC is especially a problem)
At least Riddles had the honesty to put them where they should be.
Personally I’d swap your falcon and sephiroth placement.
Seph is such a straight forward character with a high cheese meter.. falcon’s skill ceiling feels way higher.
Why you do that to the Mii's?
As a banjo main, he’s high A
Each hit of Bair sets up for something different
Tipper up air sets up into confirms (but are extremely hard to hit)
Then he has Kazooie cancel tech / Bregal blaster Multishots.
Nair and BB ladders ladders
99% if banjos don’t use any of that tech. (Outside if drag down Nair) Even the best banjo, OwlBBs or Skew can only hit the tech on occasion because of how execution heavy the character is
I love how Marss came in and said L + Bozo then leaves lmao I don’t think Marss realized the tier list is based on how hard the character is because Marss says the character really hard but she’s also bad
pretty sure he knew and was mad seeing her below kaz
I'm just starting and I want to main Meta Knight but it's painful because I'm finding him incredibly difficult to learn as a total noob
Extremely late to this, but MK is actually very difficult to learn, bottom of A tier minimum IMO. Riddles just heavily undersold him, don't feel bad about yourself and keep trying!
@@KirbyBro I have most definitely not been playing smash consistently for the past 8 months, but Meta Knight is definitely a hard character to be good with. I played Pyra/Mythra like once and got to 9mil GSP-
I honestly was just thinking about this today. Awesome timing @riddles!
It took me a long time to master the Luigi 0 to death. It’s not just one combo that works for every character. you also haft to adjust the combo based on weight and size, and some characters haft to be at specific percents a little over 0 for it to work. I think he deserves a higher spot. Nothing above B though
19:49 he’s jab jab power dunk tier
As a long time DK main, I think DK should honestly be in the low end of C tiet. Mainly because at high levels it becomes way harder to deal with Disadvantage state and neutral with this character. Sure a lot of his base moves are execute, but getting around disadvantage and learning all the advanced tech needed for all of his mixups makes him harder to use than falcon in a lot of matchups.
yeah but that has more to do with his flaws rather than the simplicity of his gameplan.
@@woah05 flaws or not, it still adds to the difficulty of execution at high levels. Try pulling off standard bread and butters on a very skilled player and you'll see how much more you have to outplay the opponent. Riddles even said that execution does play a factor
@@FloetryFox88 I'd say Riddles messed up with DK and Rob. Rob's 0-to-deaths weren't really mentioned as well as gyro management.
@@FloetryFox88 5:21 defines it pretty well
@@hectormejia7757 that's highly subjective though
G&W so easy nobody has done any good result with the character except Maister in 4 years of competitive smash
Mad facts
Because gnw doesn't have a lot of top player reps. Boring character with not much depth
@@Nemesis56113 that’s ur opinion but how can you tell a character has not much depth when no one push the meta of this one?
G&W is baby mode. It's just the meta isnt really favoured towards him. He doesnt do too great against Byleth/Palu/Roy. He's got good juggles/frametrapping with his upair, good OOS, gets a ton of perfect from grab/nair at low percent, active hitboxes which help with edgeguarding and baby mode ledgetrapping with dsmash and bacon with both combo into kill move, and invincible upsmash. Baby mode character
Just because a character isn’t that good or doesn’t have amazing results doesn’t mean the character is hard. Little mac is bad, but he is simple and easy to play. Sheik is a really good character but is extremely difficult to use.
Had someone tell me that kazuya is easy bruh 😂I swear some people need to stop talking about characters
bro those rob gyro combos are hard af execution wise, and those are needed to bring full potential, he cant be that low just cause his neutrals easy
WaDi is like one if the least technical comp players and he just did once cause he felt like it lmao.
He doesn't even use it in bracket.
I thought the same.
Thinking about it a bit more I can see why you would put him on the easier side, but since the list was supposed to be about getting the most out of it this feels very out of place.
I also omega disagree with Pikachu being super hard but I've seen a lot of pros say that so I guess there has to be something to it.
@@Thorzzten No way is Pikachu harder than Mega Man lmao
The fact that you used a clip from Hbox's stream where he popped off (despite the clip being not hype) when you talked about aegis made it better imo lmao
diddy's popgun cancels and wavebounces are insane, i'd say that puts him in S or at least higher in A but lots of people straight up don't realize it's a thing
true but a lot of characters have really deep tech that just don’t get used that much. like needle fidgeting with sheik for example and all the movement tech you can do with needle charge. and it’s definitely really powerful but it’s just generally not needed so you don’t see sheik players using it extensively
Having one or two tech options that are really hard doesn't make a character hard in my opinion.
I agree with almost everything, my only concerns are Lucas not being in at least a (DJCZ strings, wave bounce etc), toon link being under ylink who is considerably more spammable, rob in e tier (rob is simply not that easy, he’s more so c tier than e), Steve not being in s tier (nothing genuinely cheats for him and he arguably has the highest skill ceiling along with peach and ice climbers, he’s not as hard but he definitely has the relatively steep learning curve I mean we still haven’t seen him at his max potential). finally I don’t think kazuya is in s tier, you could make an argument for that, but simply because of ewgf, which is one of the cheesiest combo moves in the game, he should be relegated to the top of a tier. This is not to say he isn’t hard or has a ridiculously high skill ceiling it’s just that once you have that, you have most of his game plan in place (ewgf is kazuyas staple move).
Also I forgot to mention, zss should not be a tier. No such thing as disadvantage for her, it doesn’t exist.
Thank you for putting Lucina at B tier.
Plant’s game plan and moveset is relatively simple. But the character has no combos, no good approaching options, only one good on-stage zoning tool (poison breath), and in general he is low-mid tier at best. But his ledge-trapping and shield break punish is definitely top ten best in the game. I have been trying to play this character aggressively but I am getting rewarded more when I camp. I’d at least put him with Olimar.
Does anyone know any moves that are safe on shield? Couldn’t think of any
@@jo4sh0w76 Spaced back air kinda, and falling up air. And Ptooie if it’s hit right as plant spits it out
@@jo4sh0w76 Plant main speaking here. Spaced Bair is quite safe, as is Ptooie (though it is hard to properly land it at times). Down tilt is good for poking at people, and the first hit of F-tilt, while not safe per say, makes people hold up their shield because of F-tilt 2’s existence. Long-stem Strike is safe at mid-to-long distances, but I wouldn’t rely on it as it’s horrendously unsafe up close. Finally, spaced Fair is alright at poking at shields, too.
Ayo, thanks for this banger video!!
Why you do the miis dirty like that 😂
I always saw Lucario as hard, as he seems to need to use B-reverse and Wavebounce shenanigans more than other characters.
Plus, you have to take into account both enemy percent AND Aura on combos (etc.).
Lucario gets kill confirms with aura cancel from wavebounces and b reverses and they work on all %s and on every character. For example arial b-reverse aura into jump bair is and landing aura into cancel u-smash are both easy true confirms. Sometimes you can also react to rolls you read wrong when airborne because you can catch them with the momentum shift and dont have to input a move that animation locks you. Other than that you dont have much going for you except for ok neutral. Dair out of shield also is underrated. If you pick him up you gotta need to grab a friend and lab out %s and you gotta have a great time even online.
I feel like Lucario feels hard because he has like the worst difficulty-reward in the whole game imo. He's Bottom 10 while not being easy
@@GuentersHoerspielstube nah he is hard because his design contradicts the game. High % makes you strong but it also makes you an easy kill. When your aura is gone you are unable to kill and racking up dmg takes ages and high precision without rage and aura
wow :D you only needed like 1-2 minutes to lose your premise of "beeing optimal with that character" to "performing fine with that character"
I’ve mained Dr Mario for a few years now. I only play casually with my friends but I’ve definitely put a lot of hours into him. Being told that I should be at his maximum potential already must mean I am astoundingly shit at this game
NAH HE DID MY MAN YOSHI DIRTY that man is hard asf to play
If this tier list is based on how easy they are at maximum potential, then I think Kirby should be higher. Yes they are cheesy as hell, but technically maximum potential Kirby involves knowing how to use every character's neutral B in their kit.
Kirby definitely has some bonkers normals/aerials that are pretty easy to understand for the most part (with some obvious exceptions in terms of mechanics like dair ride), but I feel like there's actually way more depth to his neutral special than most people give him credit for, especially since it's notoriously used for cheese and it's rare to see people actually consistently use his copy abilities at a high level of play (part of this could be the fact that inhale can be hard to reliably set up). Bonus points if you can actually utilize his hammer's niche uses properly. He seems like a really simple fighter on paper, but I believe there's some room for creativity and optimization (such as the player's ability to reliably inhale and use copy abilities in conjunction with Kirby's kit)
Why aren't there more G&W players if he's so easy? I strongly disagree.
Cause he's fucking boring and somewhat obscure, people wanna play characters they have fun with online or at least know.
@@spreadwuvokay I can agree with that. Guess I've just been playing him for 20 years. Not giving up the flat man.
@@obmarte3803 Thanks for being reasonable
@@obmarte3803 I think Game and Watch is the original Mini game character before Mario Party popularized mini games.