Appreciate Jamie expressing the fact that he disagreed with the portrayal of men and why it would be something to take offence. But I think that’s the entire point. There are countless movies where women are the side characters and there as arm candy or to appease the main guy and it’s so normal for society to see women as that and not even see that as an issue. The fact that Jamie mentioned movies assuming they didn’t portray women like that shows the issue. So many women sit there watching these characters, rolling their eyes like oh of course the female character doesn’t have autonomy and just swoons when the guy comes in and has no substance as a character. This is so normalised to the point where we don’t even see them as movies perpetuating a certain image of women. Notice how there’s not a global backlash from women with every one of these movies because that’s MOST movies. It’s normal. The entire point of Barbie is it flips this narrative. You see men in the same way women are presented in countless movies, to an extreme. It’s not supposed to show u that society should be like this. It’s supposed to be odd and uncomfortable for men to watch. Sometimes u can only show something is wrong by imagining it happening to yourself. That’s how women have felt continuously, as a flat, one dimensional character. One movie showing men in that and there’s such outrage. Jamie is showing an offence to it and that’s the point. Where was that outrage of the portrayal of women in movies like transformers? That’s what Greta did and she did it really well. She forced u to take offence to what’s been wrong for years and gone unnoticed because the ‘issue’ didn’t centre around men having to deal with the ‘issue’. Sit in that uncomfortable feeling and realise that’s the female reality. This movie wasn’t about making men feel seen. It was about making women feel seen. Again, taking what’s already out there and flipping it.
Thanks you for putting the idea I wanted to convey so beautifully! I thought about the transformers movie example as well when Jamie was expressing he didn't feel represented. I really enjoy action movies but I've never felt represented by the female protagonists (would it be more accurate co-protagonist or side character), even more Meghan Fox is a really really smart woman but the generalized public opinion is that of her character waiting to be rescued (as in almost every hollywood movie). Moreover, What about the jurasic world movie, I mean WHO RUNS IN HIGH HEELS😂?!... (no offense to the actress who managed it, I found it awesome and hilarious at the same time), but my mind went "I'd rather take off my shoes ...I mean if I've done it when dancing why would I hesitate when being pursued by giant reptiles😂.
Just had to comment to voice my frustration with Jamey in this episode. I'm not going to go point by point. In general, Jamey is so smart and has done so much work and has said so many poignant things that have taught me... And then to hear him not only miss the point so consistently, but I also had a real gross feeling as I sensed some sort of mansplaining or man-centering, despite what Liz was bringing to the table. I really hope there's a chance to listen and reflect on this episode... and then maybe a re-do. I'm not surprised if a lot of men fail to overcome the resistance/programming and see what this movie (however imperfectly) was trying to say... but I expected more from Jamey.
"why does that have to be at the expense of men..." You're sooooo close to the point there, Jamey. Welcome to the world of every woman and girls in every source of media since the beginning of time.
Great episode! I do want to say though, Ken does represent some men when you look at his journey throughout the movie. It's the common: guy gets rejected > falls into a rabbit hole of resenting all women and consequently starts being harmful towards the other gender > eventually grows out it, realizing what was wrong with his behavior This is something I saw a guy point this out in a review of the movie, that he related to Ken because he had gone through that exact phase as a teenager but had grown out of it just like Ken did. Anyway, just thought it was interesting to point that out
Awesome discussion, I've been excited to listen to it since it was announced on the podcast's Instagram! I am a man who does not identify with traditional masculine traits, but am also a cisgender, straight man. I really identified with Alan throughout the entire movie, but there is one thing I haven't seen discussed regarding him that I think needs to be highlighted a bit. Throughout the entire movie, Alan is treated as a joke. It is clear that he doesn't fit in in the Ken patriarchy, as he is put into the subservient box the Kens put women into, but even when helping the Barbies deprogram the other Barbies, there is one part where he tries, and fails, to climb a fence, while being ridiculed for it. Or, when meeting with Weird Barbie, it is specifically noted that his presence is unimportant and insignificant. However, the one scene where he is valued by the other characters is when he imposes physical dominance and fights the construction Kens. Alan is only valued when he emphasizes traditionally masculine traits, even though he is generally not a traditionally masculine person.
As a black man myself, Jamey completely missed the point of the movie. It wasn’t meant to make men feel comfortable. It was meant to make us understand and have empathy for the way women feel in our patriarchal society. Some of his points in this chat were very rooted in patriarchal fragility.
I have to agree with some of the other comments- Jamey missed the mark on that one a little bit by criticizing the film for not making men feel seen or understood. This is a movie for women, and it’s fine for men not to relate to its content, they have the rest of the world for that. I love what your podcast is doing and the discussions about how the patriarchy hurts men too, but this specific movie was not about that, it was made to be a space for women to feel seen and understand the impact the patriarchy has had on them (let’s remember that most women don’t have the background in feminist theory that Liz has). I have read some criticisms about movies like The Green Book or The Help that question why so called « anti-racism » movies always have to also have a white main character who’s good and kind- as way to say « see, not all white people are bad! », instead of focusing on the experience of POC. Jamey’s comments made me feel like he wanted ken’s character to be more fleshed out so we could say, « see, men aren’t bad! » which wasn’t the point of the movie. I also wants to touch on the discussion around the assumption that hot women are « dumb ». I think Jamey questioning may have taken Liz down the wrong path. The assumption is not about « hotness » but about overt femininity. The person Liz described was hyper-feminine (long nails, makeup, etc). We tend to take women (and men) who display a very feminine « aesthetic » as dumb- and that’s bc of internalized misogyny. To be taken seriously, you need to take on a more masculine aesthetic (power suits, etc). Food for thought!
The point Liz kept making went straight over Jamie’s head and just proves the point of the movie, it’s not meant to represent men just the stereotype, like men have done to women forever. It’s the women experience, but Jamie just needs it to cater to men as well? Like I understand his point about race and dumbing down a man but the point is to make men uncomfortable by the stereotype. And Jamie constantly interrupted and dismissed Liz’s explanation by reiterating his point like he didn’t just say it, like just laughable.
I think the idea of her waking up in the moment and the dialogue being so minimal is because they’re perfect dolls living in a perfect world. As the movie progresses stereotypical Barbie starts becoming more human. Hence the thought of death and why she starts challenging the everyday repetitious mundane day. Which is the powerful reason as to why Barbie chooses to become human at the end end stereotypical Barbie ceases to exist because she’s choosing to become a complicated human being which is an embrace to the reality.
I love this podcast but half way through this episode I'm feeling really frustrated with Jamey's arguments because it suggests men don't understand nuance and view everything as very black or white. Surely men are capable of understanding that they do not need to be represented in every movie and every art form for it to be enjoyable? Okay, you didn't feel represented by the Kens or by Alan, but does that mean that's all you can be? Maybe the story being told is about other people who fall into the category of Barbie/Ken/Alan and you can enjoy the movie as an outsider looking in without just expecting representation for yourself?
First of all, love you guys both so much. I love that you did have an episode about the movie and love the honesty. I did want to point out a couple of things that stood out to me during your conversation: 1. Like Liz said, the point of portraying the men like so is to create that visceral reaction of aversion to a whole gender being reduced to and portrayed as airheads/pieces of meat to force men to reflect on how women and girls have been historically made to feel. Barbie encouraged Ken to go out and find himself outside his relationship with her. Female characters have been historically written as damsels in distress needing saving/depending on men. That was entirely the point, Jamey. 2. I know the whole point of this podcast is to talk about masculinity, but I did notice the focus on your discussion was largely centered on the portrayal of men, and it wasn’t until around the 30 minute mark that you began discussing the part about the cognitive dissonance that is required to be a woman and also the beautiful love letter to motherhood at the end of the movie. Again, I know focusing on masculinity is the point of the show but I felt like focusing mostly on the portrayal of men can further deter the average man to actually take the time to watch the movie and sit with/digest the message. 3. Like Liz said, the movie was very camp. It is somewhat a satire on patriarchy in my opinion and like you said things might need to be over the top to be effectively emphasized. 4. I do agree that the movie still felt centered around Eurocentric beauty standards despite the diverse cast. Perhaps it would have been a bit better to go deeper on each of the barbie’s back stories. I love all your episodes and value all your perspectives. Liz you never ever miss and Jamey you’re truly an example to what the modern man should aspire to be! Your podcast has taught me so much and I look forward every week to listening to your wisdom. Thank you guys for doing what you do!
"The Barbie movie is not anti-man. It is anti-patriarchy. And because we are swimming in [patriarchy] I don't think that men separate themselves from it." Yes, this is why the film is offensive to a lot of men (and everyone). The movie is meant to spark questions and discussions.
I don't think Greta and her husband tried to represent men with Kens. They wanted to represent the discomfort women live through by being portrayed in one dimensional ways, not just in movies/TV but in general. More than once, a man has tried to tell me who I am regardless of what actually do or not. They tried to bring that discomfort to men. If you didn't like how men were portrayed with Kens, then now you understand how women feel.
Men slap women -- bad. Women slap back and now men know how it feels -- a signal and crucial step towards equality? No. Vengeance never heals, even if it's meant to 'educate'. It gives smug short-lived thrill to the avenger, but ultimately feels dirty and cheap, and fuels further resentment and backlash from men. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Two wrongs simply don't make a right. True feminism takes a hit through essentially resentful rants like Barbie which is what it ultimately is. A 'fun' rant. It's divisive rather than unifying because the noble message of equality becomes mired in a much broader partisan political messaging with a lot of totally unnecessary extra baggage and venom. But the moral 'be true to yourself' and 'don't be superficial' were good in the movie. I liked those motifs, and some of the subtler forms of toxic masculinity it alerted to.
@@isralyechegaray It's precisely this type of infantile guffaws and personally directed venom that isn't conducive to equality let alone constructive conversation. Now you are telling men, condescendingly I might add, who we are which was the very thing you didn't like men doing to you. Since when is tit-for-tat, and emulating toxic masculinity back at men anything other than perpetuating patriarchy? Self-deception of the highest order. Good luck with that! If you think bitter rants are going to inspire men to join the cause of healing and empowering those women that really suffer at men's hands, think again Empath.
@isralyechegaray Don't explain yourself to these people. They're proving your point and are the reason the movie had to me made in the first place. I agree with you, and you are 100% right!
I have a hard time accepting that men who left the theatre are mad that they weren't represented when they did not watch the whole arc. Stories often start at extremes so they have somewhere to go. Imagine if women walked out of every movie that made them feel misrepresented. Love that this conversation is happening and bringing up a lot of discomfort on all sides to sit with and investigate.
Liz carrying this podcast on her back- also sad that what wasn't discussed here was Barbie's journey in the film especially in terms of Jameys main concern about a beautiful white skinny blonde as the symbolic image. Gerwig also confronts this issue through Barbie's existential crisis that she experiences as she learns where she comes from and what she represents in the real world. Barbie's character has to confront that just by existing as she is, and how she was created poses a real threat and burden on to girls and women outside of Barbieland, in addition to the unfair treatment of Kens within Barbieland. When Gerwig and Robbie set out to make this film despite all of Mattel's controversial doll, everything they did in telling this story, they did for the sake of equally calling out the positive and negative. The casting of Margot Robbie was a critically thought-out decision for these reasons while still making diversity a priority to highlight in the film.
Oh, I’m really disappointed in Jamie’s defensive view and lack of will to listen and engage with Liz' points here. Most of you already articulated this well, so I’m not going to add too much more to it, just that I’m sad Justin couldn’t be there. I really would’ve loved to hear his stance and hopefully allow for a more balanced conversation. This just felt like both of them defending their side, with Liz at least listening to and engaging with Jamie’s input… This could’ve been so much greater. But I still appreciate the conversation. One last thing: One movie can’t be everything to everyone. This kind of pedestal ist just not realistic and it’s amazing how one movie can create change and empower a lot of people. That in itself is a lot of achievement for one movie.
Without discrediting how he feels about the movie and the meaning of barbie to him as a black man, I do still think he is missing some meaning behind barbie being stereotypical barbie and how this movie is so incredibly impactful ( incredibly positivity while also highlighting how brutally negative the history of barbie is) to all women of all color, shapes, sizes, etc.
Why does there need to be a qualification that his race makes his opinion valid? Would a non-black or non-POC man not have the same validity if they held the same opinion?
I was so disappointed in Jamie during this interview. I didn’t feel like he was there to understand or be challenged by Liz’s perspectives, but to only hear and voice his own. I think Liz showed him so many perspectives that could have helped him to understand the holes in his perspective but was not open enough to hear her explaining the actual meaning behind many aspects of the film from a woman’s perspective. No real follow up questions, no teachable attitude and very little validating of another way of seeing things. I wish he came at this willing to understand something he doesn’t know, what it feels like to be a woman, and learn and grow from what she learned to feel more empowered from the Barbie perspective. I also hated that he wouldn’t call her Barbie, it felt very “but you’re not like that woman, you’re a smart special woman, you’re different”. Every Barbie is worthy!
I loved the movie and the sense of community it created, but I do agree with some of what Jamey said. I think we should separate the movie's Barbies from the doll Barbie, because the doll is still an embodiment of the stereotypical woman valued in this society. the movie was about Margot's character's evolution from doll into a woman, while the doll feels a lot more objectifying and perpetuating an unattainable beauty standard. it's giving you can fit the patriarchal beauty standards and be a good capitalist, because if she can do it, so can you!
Jamey, I think you’re missing the point. The whole movie flips gendered dynamics in film, including that at the end it’s still not a great situation for men. Because this is how it remains in for women in most other films. And yea it’s offensive. That’s the point
¡Love watching/listening to you guys! it is so refreshing to be able to , as you discuss topics, feel represented by both of you in so many different ways. Thank you for doing this. Un abrazo desde Chile.
Out of the gate, I just fn love that you all changed the traditional brand colors in the cover photo to pink for this episode. This is why I love y'all. 🤣
I see some hate for my man Jamie in the comments and I just want to say I think he did a great job at playing devils advocate. As a woman he brought a lot of points that I didn’t even consider watching the film. This ep. did such a good job at digging into the uncomfortable questions 🙌🤝👏
The @CinemaTherapy episode on Barbie answers a lot of these questions, especially the discomfort among men seeing male characters being largely sidelined (except Alan). The film is examining real world power imbalances, and how that is reflected in the archetypes we see in media. It's supposed to feel both joyous (for those who've been marginalized finally seeing themselves in the spotlight), and uncomfortable (for the privileged who are accustomed to being celebrated without working to be seen/acknowledged). It's also about the journey from battles for dominance to battles for collaboration based on egalitarian values. Patriarchy and matriarchy are both harmful, shallow, and completely arbitrary.
Jamie, if you would like to see a feminist movie that touches men, MAKE THAT MOVIE. The Barbie movie was meant to make women feel seen and understood, and to confront me with their discomfort of being put on the backburner in a stereotype like women have been for decades of film. If good men are to be reached, OTHER MEN have to step up and reach out to them and hold them to a higher standard. They need to have accountability for how they have treated women and sit in that discomfort, then grow from it. This episode felt like, once again, women were given the burden of catering to men and making them feel better.
If society has put me through ONE TOO MANY superhero movies involving men . I would love for this movie to be left alone . Also Jamey is so defensive and only watched it once… watch it again! You’ll know what to expect and enjoy it more! Also the president was Black!!! And it was so powerful for a movie and better representation than a stereotype??!! And the movie literally says stereotype Barbie doesn’t feel like she’s good at anything like that is so real so not everyone wants to be her?? And we can be more. I could actually argue as a Latina they didn’t represent us AT ALL. But I still enjoyed it. Also Greta did what she could and it was amazing. Didn’t think I’d be so angry watching this episode like we’ve never been equal in media and Barbie wasn’t meant to fix it yet was still beautiful and Barbie is getting attacked because it’s for the girlies yet everyone can enjoy it!!! It could obviously use some work no movie is perfect and helpful. I did play with Barbie’s growing up and men simply didn’t and we didn’t know why Kens were there either🤣 so giving Kens life and having the conclusion being both Barbie and Ken can find themselves separate is so wholesome.
ALSO ITS MAKING THE NARRATIVE and imagery OF HOW WE PLAYED WITH BARBIES (floating down, perfect life, open house, etc) NOT WHO WOMEN ARE like Jamey please watch it again omg or take off the pink you’re wearing like wow and I know I’m not totally correct but I think it can just be a fun movie it doesn’t have to change everything and kens got a soundtrack and it’s amazing so men are empowered 😂 and the podcast isn’t really about this but the death conversation was so powerful and someone who deals with mental illness I loved that open conversation . Overall I love this podcast and I usually comment so no bad vibes !!
I hear Jamey on the commentary regarding Alan, and what I understand at the heart of his words it is that we want to hold space for a variety of "healthy" expressions of masculinity to be able to show up for women, so that folks can see themselves represented in doing the work (we know how important representation is). In my opinion, trying to accomplish that through an appeal to the "average man" by showing more toughness or strength just reinforces the internalization of patriarchy we are already struggling with. It also makes me feel like men are being interpreted one dimensional beings. From my personal experience, I tend to resonate with the Alan depicted on screen most of the time, and yet I can also be the Alan who took on the construction workers when the need arises. Masculinity, like most things, exists on a spectrum. So perhaps the point was for men to see a part of themselves in Alan (where we all hold our inner tender humanity) that normally isn't portrayed in a majority of other media. You might say the Matthew McConaughey's (I get it was an example) of the world wouldn't understand or resonate with Alan, but I'd ask why we'd make that assumption. As someone who often intentionally tries to choose gentleness in my life, folks are surprised when they see the level of physicality I display as a wrestler. And so if you only knew me from the wrestling mat, you might make the same assumption about me not having an affinity for gentleness, yet you'd be far from the truth.
Also, I'm okay if Barbie, a movie made by women and headlined by women, wasn't made with men in mind. I'd ask why the countless men who have power in the filmmaking space haven't made the movie equivalent that does engage the "average" man in these discussions.
I think it's weird they're talking about barbies not having enough depth... because they are dolls 😂 like, in the movie they're not women, they're dolls. They don't have a vagina, they pretend shower, drink and eat. It's only when Margo's character gets more and more human is when she gets that depth. I don't think kens represented men or barbies women. We're celebrating barbie now, because they are so unapologetically girly. Like Liz said, in this society manly things are cool, valuable etc and things that women are interested in are silly. If we want to be taken seriously, we need to tone down the girlyness. The movie and the marketing and everything has put that notion on its head. And I love it!!
I liked the movie and I shared some similar views of the movie that were discussed, the only thing that I was struggling with is that I wish there was a Native American Barbie. Just one. And for the love of creator, not a stereotypical Indian, just a normal native women, ya know? I don’t have a lot of native women as role models in my life, so I tend to look up to black women to fill that role for myself. But as good as that can be I also know that there is still a disconnect between my identity and the identity of my black role models. So, if I’m thinking about little kids seeing the movie, this would’ve been SUPER impactful. Like Mattel would get so much more promotion and business from this idea honestly.
Firstly I want to say: I really love your podcast - usually. But this one… I felt a bit uncomfortable. Jamey, respectfully, I will use a very clear language here. To me it felt like: you as a guy talked about a movie, made by women for women, and are going like “But MEN are not represented! But MEN….mimimi”. It had real “but not all men” vibes. Dude. Stop it! Not everything is about men and there is no obligation for women to make movies that have to make men feel comfortable. And Liz made a perfect point by saying, that MOST movies portray women as being idiots with their entire lives revolving around the leading man. It’s painful to watch, honestly. Things have changed a little bit in the last years, but still. And yes, I can also absolutely agree that pretty girls are being viewed as being less intelligent. There are studies that confirm it. But you didn’t seem to have to listen to what Liz was saying, as much as you were interrupting and talking over her. I really hope you get around to practice some self reflection here… because right now I don’t feel I can trust your judgment anymore and it’s kind of sad, because I was really happy when I discovered this podcast and the way men talked and showed up - it gave me hope. Right now - not so much. Do better.
If we had a lot of Allen's (no gender specific) in the world, we would lead the world with kindness and empathy in our society. Because Allen doesn't oppress women and when Ken was opening up to Barbie, he cried and sympathize with Kens too. The whole point of creating Allen was there're people out there like Allen. Instead of MEN VS WOMEN, we should all be like Allen but there's nothing in between in this world. Is there?
So, As a man, I haven't seen the movie, so perhaps I will feel about it differently. BUT ... 1. From what you described, its not clear to me if Barbie was suggesting to Ken to go MGTOW and not protect women. 2. Ken was always an accessory in Barbie world (including the units sold to girls well before the movie). If that isn't objectification (in the real world, IDK what is. And this is the thing with feminism- there are multiple definitions of feminism dancing around equality, as well as multiple types of feminism (with varying degrees of outward misandry). In a sense, the movie sounds like its part of a marching list of things that are also misandrist. So I will cherrypick feminism. I'm not feminist, but im not antifeminist either ... i'll think for myself. Im fine with equality (to the extent men and women can - men arent women or vice versa), its just not clear if feminism isn't an excuse for trying to make two wrongs a justified "right". Bad actors and concepts exist in every movement, and one has to be diligent. Its not clear to me that championing equality = feminism, or that feminism has a monopoly on equality or justice.
Well said. The term "feminist" has been hijacked by a certain type of toxically masculine and privileged Western woman from the real female warriors out there in Afghanistan, India and even in the West, working against real daily violence and oppression against women at the risk of injury or even their lives. And even then, they usually lack any trace of resentfulness and bitterness. I've had the honour of working alongside these amazing noble-hearted heroines that inspire me more than any man does. But the privileged and narcissistic types of 'warriors', on the other hand, are highly liberated and materially pampered and have come to resent men for reasons other than serious gender discrimination directed personally at them or their female loved ones. They emulate toxic masculinity in the name of 'equality' while condemning the same toxic behaviour in men. A highly self-entitled person, whether man or woman, cannot accept a fair rejection for a partner or for applied positions in the job market. The latter would imply loss to someone else with genuinely higher qualifications. Since, for the highly self-entitled person, 'I am the best', therefore some foul play must be blamed for the rejection. Bitterness, resentfulness and hostility ensues. In the case of self-entitled women, a common culprit blamed for their rejection from anything, or just for being generally disliked as a person (jerks usually are, male or female), is 'patriarchy' -- systemic or personal. Even in cases where there is no evidence of foul play whatsoever. This is not to say there's no systemic nor personal patriarchy left even in the Western world. There is, and it must be resolutely overcome and addressed. But 'patriarchy' has also become a convenient scapegoat to avoid taking ownership for one's own experiences of being rejected or disliked. This triggers a primitive counter-response: "Screw men, I don't need them either." This bitter emotional lashback, again, is window-dressed by the noble claim of being an "independent woman", being "proudly feminist" and by devaluing the idea of a "heteronormative" family unit with all the "shackles" of "wifehood" to a man it entails. These types of women, just like aggressively self-entitled men, are ultimately all just products of a superficial egotistical culture where admiration and recognition by others, over outward attainments or external qualities, is considered the highest human aspiration, and the lack thereof triggers hostility and bitter rants. Such a materialist and individualist culture is the real 'enemy' here, and both men and women have fallen victim to it. Most reasonable people are feminists without any need to claim the title at every sentence to attract likes and win admiration, or to direct venom and resentfulness at any group of people, including men.
"i'm fine with equality" = you're a feminist, actually. If you are so aware of the degrees of feminism then you also should know the CORE to the actual movement is EQUALITY for MEN AND WOMEN. Men only see it as a "women's movement" because women are the ones in deficit trying to be seen as human, at the level men already are at.
I agree with parts of Jamey’s take. The movie, albeit more inclusive than the brand started and other nostalgic movies, it still highlighted white feminism and centered whiteness. If the movie featured Issa Rae as the main Barbie and linked her to another historically excluded person, etc, it would’ve been a different movie.
Something about the way Jamie talks about this film makes me feel like it's actually how highly feminine it is that makes him uncomfortable. Obviously becaseu femininity is undervalued in our society there is an association between masculinity and power which means that that the best way for women to be seen as powerful is to be masculine and I think that idea lingers in the way Jamie sees the movie. At the same time i think he makes so excellent points.
Love all this analysis of Barbie but at the end of the day it’s just a movie, can’t both be cathartic for women and educate men with a gentle enough hand that feminine men, masculine men, all men feel seen…it feels reductive to complain that it didn’t…curious how Jamie would change the movie and still keep it watchable in a theater in two hours
Barbie land was literally the Barbie’s being played with. That’s why they floated, that’s why life was “perfect”, dialogue was more basic. Honestly, I really identified with Ken especially at the end when he is confronting his identity and purpose in the world outside of his relationship to Barbie. How many women lose themselves in marriage and motherhood? I think so many would relate to Ken at that moment. In my opinion, the kens represented women. At the end even when the Barbie’s were nicer to the Ken’s, they still didn’t give them equality in Barbie land. The Barbie’s still ran everything. They were just nicer to them. I also think the movie did a decent job with diversity. It is literally mentioned several times, Margot Robbie is “stereotypical Barbie”, but there was many different Barbie’s and Ken’s.
It's interesting how offensive it felt for Jamey for Ken to move from being ignored, to being an asshole, to being dumb in the film. Is that not the journey of all oppressed and marginalized people within the culture of patriarchy and white supremacy? There's no space for being seen as anything else... just an extra.
The movie was inherently FOR men. Why is he trying to reframe the message to be SO inclusive of cis hetero men? He said he wouldn't watch it again but he definitely needs to because he didn't grasp any of the messages. The men who need(ed) to watch it the most think exactly the same way Jamey did with what he 'took' from this movie but they're the same ones least tolerable to the action message. It's a tragic catch 22
Firstly, comments/mentality like this is why echo chambers exist. If you're only consuming content you believe in and that verify your thoughts.......that's concerning. Secondly, the movie wasn't made to center men. Yes, it has a message men, actually everyone, SHOULD take but they are not the focal point. Which is why I believe it was discussed on the show. @@justicewilson7929
I think what Jamie was saying at round 7:00 about his daughter changing her hair to look more like Anna, Elsa or Barbie was really pointing out something that I need to deeply listen to as a white woman. I haven't seen the Barbie movie yet, and I look forward to seeing it, but I have felt uncomfortable as I don't know if white superiority has been deeply looked at in the representation of Barbie. I like how Liz said sexism is part of the water we drink and I think white superiority is the same. I wonder how Jamie's point can be heard and how white viewers of the movie (myself included) can sit with his point a bit more? The movie may have diverse casting but, I also see that Margo Robbie is now a visual representation of Barbie. What does that mean? How can white people further question that? Does this help white people like me to grow up more and to look at our white superiority? I don't believe sexism can really dissolve if white superiority isn't actively dissolved as well. I hear again at 31:00 Jamie brings it up again. Yes, yes, yes, he's obviously seeing something really important. I see Jamie trying to point out white superiority and Liz trying to point out sexism and Liz's white superiority (not to call out Liz, I have white superiority to work on as well) and Jamie's sexism are battling each other. But, I think racism and sexism can work together to uphold each other.
22:35 Let's just say Jamie that angering men into a conversation is by far the most easiest. By engaging a part of them who otherwise don't sit down for conversations about being sidelined as a character or maybe not having the best representation of themselves, this triggers a whole set of dialoge and as you always said a conversation is the beginning of instigating a change in the thought processes of people And as for for already evolving growing men the ones already in the loop of awareness wont walk out I think because they are a)ready to have a conversation about what they really saw b) understand it's a representation of some ideas the movie is trying to portray and see it just as an art that it is and c) just be mature enough to sit through and see where it goes 🤧 and I also feel Jamie that despite being an Asian myself had there been a colour representation emphasis more in here it would deflect the ideas like patriarchy and masculinity that they are trying to portray. The whole thing atleast created a wave in the number of participants out there ready to get involved in a dialogue about patriarchy to say the least...it instigated a conversation in many homes between parents and children too where otherwise there was no exposure or reason to bring up this conversation.And I don't think the movie was designed to strike a chord with men it was made to point out absurdities as absurdities that pushed them into a conversation at the least because it enraged them and well it did work did it not?💭💬 P.S I am not a Barbie movie fan but I like the parts they are trying to push through the whole representation of the movie .💥 P.S.S I loved Liz pointing out the possibility that 'father' earth would have earned the planet more respect and care it deserves 🤌🤌
Except that male-bashing (which the Barbie movie did and was apparent even in Jamey's defensive reaction to the movie) angers men into *withdrawal* from even all the good that originally was feminism. There's nothing wrong about being defensive after getting slapped in the face. A slap angers one to converse only in the sense of expressing strong disagreement with it. Ends don't justify the means. More and more men, and even women, disagree strongly with what feminism has come to represent -- a political ideology on one side of the aisle with a lot of additional tenets and personal hangups piled on top of it beyond just gender equality whilst muddying the inclusive, profoundly simple and inspiring original cause of gender equality. So yes, Barbie serves to create opposition against its own narrative. I guess that's positive in the same way (disclaimer: an unfairly extreme, but illustrative, analogy to follow) as holocaust was in angering the world into conversing about anti-semitism. But just because something angers people into a conversation doesn't make that "something" right or good. Yes, men have behaved like animals and still often do. Yes, men have oppressed and even enslaved women. Yes, men have been belligerent jerks and self-entitled asses. But to change all that, or whatever remaining legacy patterns thousands of years of that has left in the modern man, does not happen by being a self-entitled jerk right back at men. A higher human quality is needed to educate men and show a higher example. Female copycats only regurgitate the problem of toxic masculinity.
Am sorry to have offended you that wasn't my intention, though let's just cut to the point, can you please state a few higher human qualities that can exemplify easier outcomes like Jamie always says some do-ables or actionables that really dont involve a conversation in there ... P.S I respect your take that tit for tat wont bell the cat and I understand why you get offended too.
@@itsAmrita00 No offense taken on my part whatsoever. In fact, very much enjoying all these deep-dives into important themes. The higher road is women inviting men and men inviting women as *companions* to *jointly* raise a higher standard of *human* behaviour (rather than male or female behaviour) which evenly balances all the good virtues that have been traditionally regarded exclusively as masculine or feminine domain -- a balance between strength and tenderness, grace and justice, frankness and love, encouragement and positive challenge, kindness and righteous anger, respect and respectability, humility and healthy confidence, courage and tact, wisdom and patience, listening and sharing, et cetera. These are universal human values and we can/should all excel at them without these being mutually exclusive or competitive. But we're also all a work in progress and can't expect perfection nor be impatient with one another nor ourselves. P.S. Show men by example that the adversarial method (toxic masculinity) has never produced sustainable reform. Don't copy that method and perpetuate the very problem you're trying to solve.
Barbie movie is essentially a political sermon masquerading as a satire to make it softer, funnier and by extension more palatable to wider audiences. Star Wars doesn't preach a political ideology but *teaches* a spiritual philosophy. The principle of equality of women and men was not presented as an inspiring goal of comradeship in Barbie where we really need and value each other. But rather it preached a particular political narrative that the 'real world' is a place where most men treat women as sexual objects and servants to male whims. This caricature 'real world' in Barbie is just as much a fantasy as the Barbie world is. The reality is far more nuanced, complex, and far less extreme. Ultimately, this type of 'satire-softened' demonization of men is divisive rather than inspiring. Seeing *everything* as patriarchy is ultimately not only erroneous but an unhelpfully spiteful mindset. It's unhealthy to teach it to girls or boys, especially in the deceptive and irresistible guise of a fun parody. Whilst alerting to certain real world ills and strengthening self-love in women, I'm afraid the movie's political and cynical underlying portrayal of men only makes men more defensive rather than elicit their support in fighting the real inequalities that still exist. It is also blissfully oblivious to the violent discrimination of women in large swathes of the world outside the privileged West which the movie unapologetically represents, while, paradoxically, demonizes. Women which, were they to copy the snarky snides and dismissive antics taught by this thoroughly American movie in the name of equality (and which should obviously never be cancelled nor criminalized), would get them either beaten or killed. Barbie offers no viable tools to fight their cause and yet they're the worst victims of patriarchy.
Unfortunately it is more palatable for most of the 'woke' movement if narratives are simplified and stereotyped, that way individual thought is not necessary, just a nodding head with a faraway gaze. it's sad that critical thinking is not encouraged we are instead just meant to agree without question or be shunned (cancelled) by the group
@@dizmop Agreed, stereotypes appeal to selfish impulse rather than intellect. Whether male or female. Political ideologies and some religious ones, too, thrive on stereotypes. This topic is prone to misunderstandings partly because we fail to differentiate between two seemingly similar but ultimately completely different social phenomena: (1) On one hand there's a legitimate feminist concern that some men (not all or necessarily even most these days) still feel entitled to act like belligerent bullies and abrasive asses, and tolerate such behaviour from other men even if they don't particularly like being bullied themselves, whilst calling similarly behaving women bitches and naggers. One could call this justifiably 'toxic masculinity' and it's both unfair and ugly. To put an end to this unfairness is a legitimate concern of feminism, and all sensible men should join such a feminist cause as partners. (2) On the other hand, there are also plenty of women who feel entitled to act like bullies and abrasive asses but who window-dress it as being proud feminists who are 'empowered' and refusing to be judged by a different standard. They are however far less concerned about women's rights and gender equality than they are about the thrill of feeling superior and unchallenged, whereby nobody can ever tell them how to behave. They are not that different from spoilt brats, frat boys and the toxic masculinity described in point 1, but the sad part is they've pretty much hijacked the public discourse on feminism and made feminism look bad. Rather than creating a new masculine world with a level playing field for *everyone* to act like belligerent jerks and mislabelling it as 'equality', why don't we do just the opposite and raise a better generation where *everyone* is more sensitive, civil and respectful of the fellow-human. Especially towards those that are not very outspoken, assertive, high profile or extroverted. Men or women.
Kinda lost me on this one. As a straight man, Liz made me feel belittled. Her interpretation of Allen felt more like a woman telling me how I’m supposed to value my masculinity. I know it’s probably me still figuring this out, but it really felt like shes just trying to tell us how to feel rather than hearing what he has to say.
Telling men how they're supposed to be is the current state of "dealing with men". Apparently it's ok, because men from the past have done this to women.
Loool ! Alan is clearly supposed to be either gay or asexual. I like Liz but sometimes her vision of what general masculinity and the modern heterosexual man could or should be is just beyond unrealistic.
I don't understand how in the matriarchy, ken (men) are the problem, and in the real world, men are still the problem. The father of the family never speaks english and the one interaction he has with his daughter is his daughter telling him off for mis-speaking a language he's learning. Why are the main characters so hostile to the only father figure in this movie? I just don't get it. Pretty disrespectful movie for men from so many different angles. I like the barbie movie, i think it's the perfect movie for a feminist narrative, but it's not for me. It's not for men, and I don't think it did anything for men.
Most people defending this movie: "Hostile against men?! Try being a woman. Those negative feelings you have are invalid and/or a sign that you have to do some inner work; or maybe you just didn't get it." The movie is actually pretty genius from a toxic point of view. The Kens both symbolize the male idiocy and lack of purpose, but they also symbolize the plight and victimhood of women. Of course in the matriarchy men are useless/obsolete and their dependency on women is annoying. Men are the problem. In the patriarchy (and the "real world") men are abusive/toxic/manipulative morons. Again, they are the problem. This perfectly mirrors the reasoning of many feminists who see men as the eternal problem.
Did you actually watch the whole video? Liz explains the difference between matriarchy and patriarchy and that they are entirely different systems. It would take a simple google search for you to get that info. At the beginning of the movie, Barbieland is not representing matriarchy...it's patriarchy flipped on men to try to gain empathy for women who deal with this type of treatment constantly. It obviously went over your head. I encourage a rewatch for any men who felt this way, but with a less defensive and more open minded attitude. @@okaySam
@@itselisapicc You can interpret it as a matriarchy (which the director of the movie actually does; the interview is on youtube) or you can interpret it as an analogy patriarchy; which is a convenient interpretation, but doesn't really matter, since my point still stands. Hope this didn't go "over your head."
@@itselisapicc "and people say the Barbie movie makes women hate (some) men. I don’t need a movie to hate men like you.😂😂" Sorry for any negative experiences you may have had. All the best to you.
As black man, I didn't watch the Color Purple nor Waiting to Exhale. My mother nor any of my relatives made me watch because they knew how divisive the movies could be and how it portrayed black men. Barbie is no exception. I don't believe it's a movie about equality. I believe it's glimpse into what 2050 would be like if men continue to be demonized for existing and what they feel naturally.
"Barbie", as a concept and as term, is being reclaimed by White Feminism as their version of the "N-Word". Both nauseating 🤢 and tragically hilarious 😂 But to each their own, I suppose 🙄 I really appreciate the perspectives Liz and Jamey brought up in this discussion. It got me thinking critically, and I'd like to address a few points that they made. I haven't seen the movie myself, not because I disagree with the message....I had aversions to thee aesthetic. What annoys me are critiques from Men that they didn't feel represented by the "Kens". When there was clearly a "Barbieland" and a "Real World" in the film 🤨 Rules of the Patriarchy, Kens weren't intended toys for males to begin with! They were psy-op tools to program young girls. Being born in 1980, our toy models were He-Man and G.I. Joes. Barbarians and Soldiers. HEROES. To the Female Women reading this comment, I'll let you in on a little secret about Patriarchy. Patriarchy is War Culture, masquerading as "Civilized". In such a culture, Females/Women are seen as the Prize of the Conquerors. Hence, why so much value is put on their Beauty and not their Intelligence. It was mentioned that Men generally believe Women to be less intelligent. But there's a nuance to that sentiment..... It's not as simple as Women being considered and seen as less intelligent. Matter of fact, many intelligent Men acknowledge and appreciate intelligent Women. It's just that in the System of Patriarchy, a woman's intelligence is deprioritized into irrelevance. Possession of Beauty, is what denotes the status of a Men in the System of Patriarchy. And Women are considered a principled object in this philosophy. Every other quality a woman possesses are considered "ornamental accentuations". I don't subscribe to this, however I'm still moving towards deprogramming this indoctrination 🙏🏼🤲🏼🙇🏽♂️ And to Jamey's point about Ms. Margot Robbie being centered as the "traditional" aesthetic archetype for Barbie, not only might it be problematic for Girls/Women of the Global Majority.... but it unintentionally reinforces a particular Body Type Standard of Beauty. That being said, this particular Psy-Op works in countering the Body Positivity Pro-Obesity Psy-Op. Resulting in potentially physically healthier Women, though perhaps at the price of some of their mental health? 🤔 As a Passive Accelerationist, I'm HERE FOR IT! 🤪
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Appreciate Jamie expressing the fact that he disagreed with the portrayal of men and why it would be something to take offence.
But I think that’s the entire point.
There are countless movies where women are the side characters and there as arm candy or to appease the main guy and it’s so normal for society to see women as that and not even see that as an issue. The fact that Jamie mentioned movies assuming they didn’t portray women like that shows the issue. So many women sit there watching these characters, rolling their eyes like oh of course the female character doesn’t have autonomy and just swoons when the guy comes in and has no substance as a character. This is so normalised to the point where we don’t even see them as movies perpetuating a certain image of women. Notice how there’s not a global backlash from women with every one of these movies because that’s MOST movies. It’s normal.
The entire point of Barbie is it flips this narrative. You see men in the same way women are presented in countless movies, to an extreme. It’s not supposed to show u that society should be like this. It’s supposed to be odd and uncomfortable for men to watch. Sometimes u can only show something is wrong by imagining it happening to yourself. That’s how women have felt continuously, as a flat, one dimensional character.
One movie showing men in that and there’s such outrage. Jamie is showing an offence to it and that’s the point. Where was that outrage of the portrayal of women in movies like transformers?
That’s what Greta did and she did it really well. She forced u to take offence to what’s been wrong for years and gone unnoticed because the ‘issue’ didn’t centre around men having to deal with the ‘issue’. Sit in that uncomfortable feeling and realise that’s the female reality. This movie wasn’t about making men feel seen. It was about making women feel seen. Again, taking what’s already out there and flipping it.
Men are the ‘Barbies’ in actual society and women are the ‘Kens’.
That was the point. To show it’s messed up.
@Waltfizney Yup and women aren't in barbieland, we are in ken MOJO dojo casa house/kendom.
Yeeeees!!!! You really nailed the point.
Exactly!!! Thank you.
Thanks you for putting the idea I wanted to convey so beautifully!
I thought about the transformers movie example as well when Jamie was expressing he didn't feel represented. I really enjoy action movies but I've never felt represented by the female protagonists (would it be more accurate co-protagonist or side character), even more Meghan Fox is a really really smart woman but the generalized public opinion is that of her character waiting to be rescued (as in almost every hollywood movie). Moreover, What about the jurasic world movie, I mean WHO RUNS IN HIGH HEELS😂?!... (no offense to the actress who managed it, I found it awesome and hilarious at the same time), but my mind went "I'd rather take off my shoes ...I mean if I've done it when dancing why would I hesitate when being pursued by giant reptiles😂.
Just had to comment to voice my frustration with Jamey in this episode.
I'm not going to go point by point.
In general, Jamey is so smart and has done so much work and has said so many poignant things that have taught me... And then to hear him not only miss the point so consistently, but I also had a real gross feeling as I sensed some sort of mansplaining or man-centering, despite what Liz was bringing to the table.
I really hope there's a chance to listen and reflect on this episode... and then maybe a re-do.
I'm not surprised if a lot of men fail to overcome the resistance/programming and see what this movie (however imperfectly) was trying to say... but I expected more from Jamey.
Amen!
that feeling you have of irritation that you aren't represented in the movie, that's the point, too. That's what is done to women/girls constantly.
"why does that have to be at the expense of men..." You're sooooo close to the point there, Jamey. Welcome to the world of every woman and girls in every source of media since the beginning of time.
Every media since the beginning of time has been at the expense of women? You're only hurting yourself by believing this kind of narrative.
You really gonna criticize him for that?
EXACTLY what I was thinking when he said that. The average man's critical thinking and awareness, especially in light of this movie, is frightening
Great episode! I do want to say though, Ken does represent some men when you look at his journey throughout the movie. It's the common: guy gets rejected > falls into a rabbit hole of resenting all women and consequently starts being harmful towards the other gender > eventually grows out it, realizing what was wrong with his behavior
This is something I saw a guy point this out in a review of the movie, that he related to Ken because he had gone through that exact phase as a teenager but had grown out of it just like Ken did.
Anyway, just thought it was interesting to point that out
was it Nathan Zed? I remember him saying that!
Awesome discussion, I've been excited to listen to it since it was announced on the podcast's Instagram! I am a man who does not identify with traditional masculine traits, but am also a cisgender, straight man. I really identified with Alan throughout the entire movie, but there is one thing I haven't seen discussed regarding him that I think needs to be highlighted a bit.
Throughout the entire movie, Alan is treated as a joke. It is clear that he doesn't fit in in the Ken patriarchy, as he is put into the subservient box the Kens put women into, but even when helping the Barbies deprogram the other Barbies, there is one part where he tries, and fails, to climb a fence, while being ridiculed for it. Or, when meeting with Weird Barbie, it is specifically noted that his presence is unimportant and insignificant.
However, the one scene where he is valued by the other characters is when he imposes physical dominance and fights the construction Kens. Alan is only valued when he emphasizes traditionally masculine traits, even though he is generally not a traditionally masculine person.
Fascinating observation! Thank you
Wow. As a cisgender, straight man myself - THIS. Felt every bit of this. Thank you.
As a black man myself, Jamey completely missed the point of the movie. It wasn’t meant to make men feel comfortable. It was meant to make us understand and have empathy for the way women feel in our patriarchal society. Some of his points in this chat were very rooted in patriarchal fragility.
So many men who hated Barbie for how it portrayed the Kens now know how women have felt for years and don't even realize it. It's funny AND tragic.
I have to agree with some of the other comments- Jamey missed the mark on that one a little bit by criticizing the film for not making men feel seen or understood. This is a movie for women, and it’s fine for men not to relate to its content, they have the rest of the world for that. I love what your podcast is doing and the discussions about how the patriarchy hurts men too, but this specific movie was not about that, it was made to be a space for women to feel seen and understand the impact the patriarchy has had on them (let’s remember that most women don’t have the background in feminist theory that Liz has).
I have read some criticisms about movies like The Green Book or The Help that question why so called « anti-racism » movies always have to also have a white main character who’s good and kind- as way to say « see, not all white people are bad! », instead of focusing on the experience of POC. Jamey’s comments made me feel like he wanted ken’s character to be more fleshed out so we could say, « see, men aren’t bad! » which wasn’t the point of the movie.
I also wants to touch on the discussion around the assumption that hot women are « dumb ». I think Jamey questioning may have taken Liz down the wrong path. The assumption is not about « hotness » but about overt femininity. The person Liz described was hyper-feminine (long nails, makeup, etc). We tend to take women (and men) who display a very feminine « aesthetic » as dumb- and that’s bc of internalized misogyny. To be taken seriously, you need to take on a more masculine aesthetic (power suits, etc).
Food for thought!
The point Liz kept making went straight over Jamie’s head and just proves the point of the movie, it’s not meant to represent men just the stereotype, like men have done to women forever. It’s the women experience, but Jamie just needs it to cater to men as well? Like I understand his point about race and dumbing down a man but the point is to make men uncomfortable by the stereotype. And Jamie constantly interrupted and dismissed Liz’s explanation by reiterating his point like he didn’t just say it, like just laughable.
I think the idea of her waking up in the moment and the dialogue being so minimal is because they’re perfect dolls living in a perfect world. As the movie progresses stereotypical Barbie starts becoming more human. Hence the thought of death and why she starts challenging the everyday repetitious mundane day. Which is the powerful reason as to why Barbie chooses to become human at the end end stereotypical Barbie ceases to exist because she’s choosing to become a complicated human being which is an embrace to the reality.
I love this podcast but half way through this episode I'm feeling really frustrated with Jamey's arguments because it suggests men don't understand nuance and view everything as very black or white. Surely men are capable of understanding that they do not need to be represented in every movie and every art form for it to be enjoyable? Okay, you didn't feel represented by the Kens or by Alan, but does that mean that's all you can be? Maybe the story being told is about other people who fall into the category of Barbie/Ken/Alan and you can enjoy the movie as an outsider looking in without just expecting representation for yourself?
First of all, love you guys both so much. I love that you did have an episode about the movie and love the honesty. I did want to point out a couple of things that stood out to me during your conversation:
1. Like Liz said, the point of portraying the men like so is to create that visceral reaction of aversion to a whole gender being reduced to and portrayed as airheads/pieces of meat to force men to reflect on how women and girls have been historically made to feel. Barbie encouraged Ken to go out and find himself outside his relationship with her. Female characters have been historically written as damsels in distress needing saving/depending on men. That was entirely the point, Jamey.
2. I know the whole point of this podcast is to talk about masculinity, but I did notice the focus on your discussion was largely centered on the portrayal of men, and it wasn’t until around the 30 minute mark that you began discussing the part about the cognitive dissonance that is required to be a woman and also the beautiful love letter to motherhood at the end of the movie. Again, I know focusing on masculinity is the point of the show but I felt like focusing mostly on the portrayal of men can further deter the average man to actually take the time to watch the movie and sit with/digest the message.
3. Like Liz said, the movie was very camp. It is somewhat a satire on patriarchy in my opinion and like you said things might need to be over the top to be effectively emphasized.
4. I do agree that the movie still felt centered around Eurocentric beauty standards despite the diverse cast. Perhaps it would have been a bit better to go deeper on each of the barbie’s back stories.
I love all your episodes and value all your perspectives. Liz you never ever miss and Jamey you’re truly an example to what the modern man should aspire to be! Your podcast has taught me so much and I look forward every week to listening to your wisdom. Thank you guys for doing what you do!
PS. I loved your conclusion that either way the movie carried an important message! 🫶🏼
"The Barbie movie is not anti-man. It is anti-patriarchy. And because we are swimming in [patriarchy] I don't think that men separate themselves from it." Yes, this is why the film is offensive to a lot of men (and everyone). The movie is meant to spark questions and discussions.
I don't think Greta and her husband tried to represent men with Kens. They wanted to represent the discomfort women live through by being portrayed in one dimensional ways, not just in movies/TV but in general. More than once, a man has tried to tell me who I am regardless of what actually do or not. They tried to bring that discomfort to men. If you didn't like how men were portrayed with Kens, then now you understand how women feel.
Men slap women -- bad. Women slap back and now men know how it feels -- a signal and crucial step towards equality? No. Vengeance never heals, even if it's meant to 'educate'. It gives smug short-lived thrill to the avenger, but ultimately feels dirty and cheap, and fuels further resentment and backlash from men. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Two wrongs simply don't make a right. True feminism takes a hit through essentially resentful rants like Barbie which is what it ultimately is. A 'fun' rant.
It's divisive rather than unifying because the noble message of equality becomes mired in a much broader partisan political messaging with a lot of totally unnecessary extra baggage and venom.
But the moral 'be true to yourself' and 'don't be superficial' were good in the movie. I liked those motifs, and some of the subtler forms of toxic masculinity it alerted to.
@@samkarvonen8803 Hahahaha! That’s way out of the point. You guys have a problem with empathy and it shows.
@@isralyechegaray It's precisely this type of infantile guffaws and personally directed venom that isn't conducive to equality let alone constructive conversation. Now you are telling men, condescendingly I might add, who we are which was the very thing you didn't like men doing to you. Since when is tit-for-tat, and emulating toxic masculinity back at men anything other than perpetuating patriarchy? Self-deception of the highest order.
Good luck with that! If you think bitter rants are going to inspire men to join the cause of healing and empowering those women that really suffer at men's hands, think again Empath.
@@isralyechegaray the empathy gap favors women. Look up the women-are-wonderful effect as well as the regarding biases.
@isralyechegaray Don't explain yourself to these people. They're proving your point and are the reason the movie had to me made in the first place. I agree with you, and you are 100% right!
I have a hard time accepting that men who left the theatre are mad that they weren't represented when they did not watch the whole arc. Stories often start at extremes so they have somewhere to go. Imagine if women walked out of every movie that made them feel misrepresented. Love that this conversation is happening and bringing up a lot of discomfort on all sides to sit with and investigate.
Thank you. Glad you're here with us.
Liz carrying this podcast on her back- also sad that what wasn't discussed here was Barbie's journey in the film especially in terms of Jameys main concern about a beautiful white skinny blonde as the symbolic image. Gerwig also confronts this issue through Barbie's existential crisis that she experiences as she learns where she comes from and what she represents in the real world. Barbie's character has to confront that just by existing as she is, and how she was created poses a real threat and burden on to girls and women outside of Barbieland, in addition to the unfair treatment of Kens within Barbieland. When Gerwig and Robbie set out to make this film despite all of Mattel's controversial doll, everything they did in telling this story, they did for the sake of equally calling out the positive and negative. The casting of Margot Robbie was a critically thought-out decision for these reasons while still making diversity a priority to highlight in the film.
Thank you so much for sharing this perspective
Oh, I’m really disappointed in Jamie’s defensive view and lack of will to listen and engage with Liz' points here. Most of you already articulated this well, so I’m not going to add too much more to it, just that I’m sad Justin couldn’t be there. I really would’ve loved to hear his stance and hopefully allow for a more balanced conversation. This just felt like both of them defending their side, with Liz at least listening to and engaging with Jamie’s input… This could’ve been so much greater. But I still appreciate the conversation.
One last thing: One movie can’t be everything to everyone. This kind of pedestal ist just not realistic and it’s amazing how one movie can create change and empower a lot of people. That in itself is a lot of achievement for one movie.
Thank you for the feedback
Appreciate Jameys honesty in this conversation.
agree
Without discrediting how he feels about the movie and the meaning of barbie to him as a black man, I do still think he is missing some meaning behind barbie being stereotypical barbie and how this movie is so incredibly impactful ( incredibly positivity while also highlighting how brutally negative the history of barbie is) to all women of all color, shapes, sizes, etc.
Why does there need to be a qualification that his race makes his opinion valid? Would a non-black or non-POC man not have the same validity if they held the same opinion?
What do u think he's missing tho? His points are pretty nuanced
I was so disappointed in Jamie during this interview. I didn’t feel like he was there to understand or be challenged by Liz’s perspectives, but to only hear and voice his own. I think Liz showed him so many perspectives that could have helped him to understand the holes in his perspective but was not open enough to hear her explaining the actual meaning behind many aspects of the film from a woman’s perspective. No real follow up questions, no teachable attitude and very little validating of another way of seeing things. I wish he came at this willing to understand something he doesn’t know, what it feels like to be a woman, and learn and grow from what she learned to feel more empowered from the Barbie perspective. I also hated that he wouldn’t call her Barbie, it felt very “but you’re not like that woman, you’re a smart special woman, you’re different”. Every Barbie is worthy!
I agree
I loved the movie and the sense of community it created, but I do agree with some of what Jamey said. I think we should separate the movie's Barbies from the doll Barbie, because the doll is still an embodiment of the stereotypical woman valued in this society. the movie was about Margot's character's evolution from doll into a woman, while the doll feels a lot more objectifying and perpetuating an unattainable beauty standard. it's giving you can fit the patriarchal beauty standards and be a good capitalist, because if she can do it, so can you!
"If we called it Father Earth maybe we would have more respect for it." thought provoking...thanks for that Liz
Might sound good in the moment, but it's complete nonsense. Those kinds of narratives hurt feminism in the long run.
Jamey, I think you’re missing the point. The whole movie flips gendered dynamics in film, including that at the end it’s still not a great situation for men. Because this is how it remains in for women in most other films. And yea it’s offensive. That’s the point
¡Love watching/listening to you guys! it is so refreshing to be able to , as you discuss topics, feel represented by both of you in so many different ways. Thank you for doing this. Un abrazo desde Chile.
The reason the Barbies talk like that is because the dialog is meant to mimic kids playing with them.
Out of the gate, I just fn love that you all changed the traditional brand colors in the cover photo to pink for this episode. This is why I love y'all. 🤣
I see some hate for my man Jamie in the comments and I just want to say I think he did a great job at playing devils advocate. As a woman he brought a lot of points that I didn’t even consider watching the film. This ep. did such a good job at digging into the uncomfortable questions 🙌🤝👏
Thank you so much for the support!
Jamey, you seem a little defensive. I get your point though.
My thoughts, too
The @CinemaTherapy episode on Barbie answers a lot of these questions, especially the discomfort among men seeing male characters being largely sidelined (except Alan). The film is examining real world power imbalances, and how that is reflected in the archetypes we see in media.
It's supposed to feel both joyous (for those who've been marginalized finally seeing themselves in the spotlight), and uncomfortable (for the privileged who are accustomed to being celebrated without working to be seen/acknowledged). It's also about the journey from battles for dominance to battles for collaboration based on egalitarian values. Patriarchy and matriarchy are both harmful, shallow, and completely arbitrary.
Jamie, if you would like to see a feminist movie that touches men, MAKE THAT MOVIE.
The Barbie movie was meant to make women feel seen and understood, and to confront me with their discomfort of being put on the backburner in a stereotype like women have been for decades of film.
If good men are to be reached, OTHER MEN have to step up and reach out to them and hold them to a higher standard. They need to have accountability for how they have treated women and sit in that discomfort, then grow from it.
This episode felt like, once again, women were given the burden of catering to men and making them feel better.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. You will certainly see those types of movies come out of Wayfarer Studios.
If society has put me through ONE TOO MANY superhero movies involving men . I would love for this movie to be left alone . Also Jamey is so defensive and only watched it once… watch it again! You’ll know what to expect and enjoy it more! Also the president was Black!!! And it was so powerful for a movie and better representation than a stereotype??!! And the movie literally says stereotype Barbie doesn’t feel like she’s good at anything like that is so real so not everyone wants to be her?? And we can be more. I could actually argue as a Latina they didn’t represent us AT ALL. But I still enjoyed it. Also Greta did what she could and it was amazing. Didn’t think I’d be so angry watching this episode like we’ve never been equal in media and Barbie wasn’t meant to fix it yet was still beautiful and Barbie is getting attacked because it’s for the girlies yet everyone can enjoy it!!! It could obviously use some work no movie is perfect and helpful. I did play with Barbie’s growing up and men simply didn’t and we didn’t know why Kens were there either🤣 so giving Kens life and having the conclusion being both Barbie and Ken can find themselves separate is so wholesome.
ALSO ITS MAKING THE NARRATIVE and imagery OF HOW WE PLAYED WITH BARBIES (floating down, perfect life, open house, etc) NOT WHO WOMEN ARE like Jamey please watch it again omg or take off the pink you’re wearing like wow and I know I’m not totally correct but I think it can just be a fun movie it doesn’t have to change everything and kens got a soundtrack and it’s amazing so men are empowered 😂 and the podcast isn’t really about this but the death conversation was so powerful and someone who deals with mental illness I loved that open conversation . Overall I love this podcast and I usually comment so no bad vibes !!
Guy here. Just wanna say I completely agree.
@@dylancao8046 went to go watch the Barbie movie a third time and thought about you from this comment . I appreciate your response!
Well, people are entitled to their opinions and you can always agree to disagree
@@justicewilson7929 yeah that’s kind of the point of a comment section 🤣
LIZ! Yes. Thank you.
I am ready for a real diverse cheese platter.❤
I hear Jamey on the commentary regarding Alan, and what I understand at the heart of his words it is that we want to hold space for a variety of "healthy" expressions of masculinity to be able to show up for women, so that folks can see themselves represented in doing the work (we know how important representation is). In my opinion, trying to accomplish that through an appeal to the "average man" by showing more toughness or strength just reinforces the internalization of patriarchy we are already struggling with. It also makes me feel like men are being interpreted one dimensional beings. From my personal experience, I tend to resonate with the Alan depicted on screen most of the time, and yet I can also be the Alan who took on the construction workers when the need arises. Masculinity, like most things, exists on a spectrum. So perhaps the point was for men to see a part of themselves in Alan (where we all hold our inner tender humanity) that normally isn't portrayed in a majority of other media. You might say the Matthew McConaughey's (I get it was an example) of the world wouldn't understand or resonate with Alan, but I'd ask why we'd make that assumption. As someone who often intentionally tries to choose gentleness in my life, folks are surprised when they see the level of physicality I display as a wrestler. And so if you only knew me from the wrestling mat, you might make the same assumption about me not having an affinity for gentleness, yet you'd be far from the truth.
Also, I'm okay if Barbie, a movie made by women and headlined by women, wasn't made with men in mind. I'd ask why the countless men who have power in the filmmaking space haven't made the movie equivalent that does engage the "average" man in these discussions.
none of us look like stereotypical barbie except Margot Robbie.
I think it's weird they're talking about barbies not having enough depth... because they are dolls 😂 like, in the movie they're not women, they're dolls. They don't have a vagina, they pretend shower, drink and eat. It's only when Margo's character gets more and more human is when she gets that depth. I don't think kens represented men or barbies women. We're celebrating barbie now, because they are so unapologetically girly. Like Liz said, in this society manly things are cool, valuable etc and things that women are interested in are silly. If we want to be taken seriously, we need to tone down the girlyness. The movie and the marketing and everything has put that notion on its head. And I love it!!
I liked the movie and I shared some similar views of the movie that were discussed, the only thing that I was struggling with is that I wish there was a Native American Barbie. Just one. And for the love of creator, not a stereotypical Indian, just a normal native women, ya know? I don’t have a lot of native women as role models in my life, so I tend to look up to black women to fill that role for myself. But as good as that can be I also know that there is still a disconnect between my identity and the identity of my black role models. So, if I’m thinking about little kids seeing the movie, this would’ve been SUPER impactful. Like Mattel would get so much more promotion and business from this idea honestly.
Firstly I want to say: I really love your podcast - usually. But this one… I felt a bit uncomfortable. Jamey, respectfully, I will use a very clear language here. To me it felt like: you as a guy talked about a movie, made by women for women, and are going like “But MEN are not represented! But MEN….mimimi”. It had real “but not all men” vibes. Dude. Stop it! Not everything is about men and there is no obligation for women to make movies that have to make men feel comfortable. And Liz made a perfect point by saying, that MOST movies portray women as being idiots with their entire lives revolving around the leading man. It’s painful to watch, honestly. Things have changed a little bit in the last years, but still. And yes, I can also absolutely agree that pretty girls are being viewed as being less intelligent. There are studies that confirm it. But you didn’t seem to have to listen to what Liz was saying, as much as you were interrupting and talking over her. I really hope you get around to practice some self reflection here… because right now I don’t feel I can trust your judgment anymore and it’s kind of sad, because I was really happy when I discovered this podcast and the way men talked and showed up - it gave me hope. Right now - not so much. Do better.
If we had a lot of Allen's (no gender specific) in the world, we would lead the world with kindness and empathy in our society. Because Allen doesn't oppress women and when Ken was opening up to Barbie, he cried and sympathize with Kens too. The whole point of creating Allen was there're people out there like Allen. Instead of MEN VS WOMEN, we should all be like Allen but there's nothing in between in this world. Is there?
Noooo, it's saying that Alan, who isn't the typical Ken, automatically has this label of presumed gay, but that's the patriarchy, too.
I love that Jamey ended with, I am Kenough! ❤
Did Jamey miss all the posters cause....????
So,
As a man, I haven't seen the movie, so perhaps I will feel about it differently.
BUT ...
1. From what you described, its not clear to me if Barbie was suggesting to Ken to go MGTOW and not protect women.
2. Ken was always an accessory in Barbie world (including the units sold to girls well before the movie). If that isn't objectification (in the real world, IDK what is.
And this is the thing with feminism- there are multiple definitions of feminism dancing around equality, as well as multiple types of feminism (with varying degrees of outward misandry). In a sense, the movie sounds like its part of a marching list of things that are also misandrist.
So I will cherrypick feminism. I'm not feminist, but im not antifeminist either ... i'll think for myself.
Im fine with equality (to the extent men and women can - men arent women or vice versa), its just not clear if feminism isn't an excuse for trying to make two wrongs a justified "right". Bad actors and concepts exist in every movement, and one has to be diligent. Its not clear to me that championing equality = feminism, or that feminism has a monopoly on equality or justice.
Trying to brand feminism as an equality movement stopped working a long time ago.
There is a proper movement for equality, it's called egalitarianism.
Well said.
The term "feminist" has been hijacked by a certain type of toxically masculine and privileged Western woman from the real female warriors out there in Afghanistan, India and even in the West, working against real daily violence and oppression against women at the risk of injury or even their lives. And even then, they usually lack any trace of resentfulness and bitterness. I've had the honour of working alongside these amazing noble-hearted heroines that inspire me more than any man does. But the privileged and narcissistic types of 'warriors', on the other hand, are highly liberated and materially pampered and have come to resent men for reasons other than serious gender discrimination directed personally at them or their female loved ones. They emulate toxic masculinity in the name of 'equality' while condemning the same toxic behaviour in men.
A highly self-entitled person, whether man or woman, cannot accept a fair rejection for a partner or for applied positions in the job market. The latter would imply loss to someone else with genuinely higher qualifications. Since, for the highly self-entitled person, 'I am the best', therefore some foul play must be blamed for the rejection. Bitterness, resentfulness and hostility ensues. In the case of self-entitled women, a common culprit blamed for their rejection from anything, or just for being generally disliked as a person (jerks usually are, male or female), is 'patriarchy' -- systemic or personal. Even in cases where there is no evidence of foul play whatsoever.
This is not to say there's no systemic nor personal patriarchy left even in the Western world. There is, and it must be resolutely overcome and addressed. But 'patriarchy' has also become a convenient scapegoat to avoid taking ownership for one's own experiences of being rejected or disliked. This triggers a primitive counter-response: "Screw men, I don't need them either." This bitter emotional lashback, again, is window-dressed by the noble claim of being an "independent woman", being "proudly feminist" and by devaluing the idea of a "heteronormative" family unit with all the "shackles" of "wifehood" to a man it entails.
These types of women, just like aggressively self-entitled men, are ultimately all just products of a superficial egotistical culture where admiration and recognition by others, over outward attainments or external qualities, is considered the highest human aspiration, and the lack thereof triggers hostility and bitter rants. Such a materialist and individualist culture is the real 'enemy' here, and both men and women have fallen victim to it.
Most reasonable people are feminists without any need to claim the title at every sentence to attract likes and win admiration, or to direct venom and resentfulness at any group of people, including men.
@@samkarvonen8803 epic rant. well done. slow clap.
"i'm fine with equality" = you're a feminist, actually. If you are so aware of the degrees of feminism then you also should know the CORE to the actual movement is EQUALITY for MEN AND WOMEN. Men only see it as a "women's movement" because women are the ones in deficit trying to be seen as human, at the level men already are at.
Barbieland was portrayed as the fake "perfect", that we're supposed to be happy b/c of all the perfect, not-elevated conversation, etc.
Jamey greatly demonstrated how the narrative of what Barbie is and what she stands for has always been controlled by a multi million dollar company.
I agree with parts of Jamey’s take. The movie, albeit more inclusive than the brand started and other nostalgic movies, it still highlighted white feminism and centered whiteness. If the movie featured Issa Rae as the main Barbie and linked her to another historically excluded person, etc, it would’ve been a different movie.
Thank you so much for sharing
Something about the way Jamie talks about this film makes me feel like it's actually how highly feminine it is that makes him uncomfortable. Obviously becaseu femininity is undervalued in our society there is an association between masculinity and power which means that that the best way for women to be seen as powerful is to be masculine and I think that idea lingers in the way Jamie sees the movie. At the same time i think he makes so excellent points.
Love all this analysis of Barbie but at the end of the day it’s just a movie, can’t both be cathartic for women and educate men with a gentle enough hand that feminine men, masculine men, all men feel seen…it feels reductive to complain that it didn’t…curious how Jamie would change the movie and still keep it watchable in a theater in two hours
Barbie land was literally the Barbie’s being played with. That’s why they floated, that’s why life was “perfect”, dialogue was more basic.
Honestly, I really identified with Ken especially at the end when he is confronting his identity and purpose in the world outside of his relationship to Barbie. How many women lose themselves in marriage and motherhood? I think so many would relate to Ken at that moment.
In my opinion, the kens represented women. At the end even when the Barbie’s were nicer to the Ken’s, they still didn’t give them equality in Barbie land. The Barbie’s still ran everything. They were just nicer to them.
I also think the movie did a decent job with diversity. It is literally mentioned several times, Margot Robbie is “stereotypical Barbie”, but there was many different Barbie’s and Ken’s.
Thanks for sharing your POV.
It's interesting how offensive it felt for Jamey for Ken to move from being ignored, to being an asshole, to being dumb in the film. Is that not the journey of all oppressed and marginalized people within the culture of patriarchy and white supremacy? There's no space for being seen as anything else... just an extra.
The movie was inherently FOR men. Why is he trying to reframe the message to be SO inclusive of cis hetero men? He said he wouldn't watch it again but he definitely needs to because he didn't grasp any of the messages. The men who need(ed) to watch it the most think exactly the same way Jamey did with what he 'took' from this movie but they're the same ones least tolerable to the action message. It's a tragic catch 22
If it's not for men, why even talk about it on the "man enough podcast" or have him there anyway?
Firstly, comments/mentality like this is why echo chambers exist. If you're only consuming content you believe in and that verify your thoughts.......that's concerning.
Secondly, the movie wasn't made to center men. Yes, it has a message men, actually everyone, SHOULD take but they are not the focal point. Which is why I believe it was discussed on the show. @@justicewilson7929
I think what Jamie was saying at round 7:00 about his daughter changing her hair to look more like Anna, Elsa or Barbie was really pointing out something that I need to deeply listen to as a white woman. I haven't seen the Barbie movie yet, and I look forward to seeing it, but I have felt uncomfortable as I don't know if white superiority has been deeply looked at in the representation of Barbie. I like how Liz said sexism is part of the water we drink and I think white superiority is the same. I wonder how Jamie's point can be heard and how white viewers of the movie (myself included) can sit with his point a bit more? The movie may have diverse casting but, I also see that Margo Robbie is now a visual representation of Barbie. What does that mean? How can white people further question that? Does this help white people like me to grow up more and to look at our white superiority? I don't believe sexism can really dissolve if white superiority isn't actively dissolved as well.
I hear again at 31:00 Jamie brings it up again. Yes, yes, yes, he's obviously seeing something really important. I see Jamie trying to point out white superiority and Liz trying to point out sexism and Liz's white superiority (not to call out Liz, I have white superiority to work on as well) and Jamie's sexism are battling each other. But, I think racism and sexism can work together to uphold each other.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts
I think Ken was the hero of the story. He actually seemed to go through the hero's journey and I actually view him as the protagonist of the story.
22:35 Let's just say Jamie that angering men into a conversation is by far the most easiest. By engaging a part of them who otherwise don't sit down for conversations about being sidelined as a character or maybe not having the best representation of themselves, this triggers a whole set of dialoge and as you always said a conversation is the beginning of instigating a change in the thought processes of people And as for for already evolving growing men the ones already in the loop of awareness wont walk out I think because they are a)ready to have a conversation about what they really saw b) understand it's a representation of some ideas the movie is trying to portray and see it just as an art that it is and c) just be mature enough to sit through and see where it goes 🤧
and I also feel Jamie that despite being an Asian myself had there been a colour representation emphasis more in here it would deflect the ideas like patriarchy and masculinity that they are trying to portray.
The whole thing atleast created a wave in the number of participants out there ready to get involved in a dialogue about patriarchy to say the least...it instigated a conversation in many homes between parents and children too where otherwise there was no exposure or reason to bring up this conversation.And I don't think the movie was designed to strike a chord with men it was made to point out absurdities as absurdities that pushed them into a conversation at the least because it enraged them and well it did work did it not?💭💬
P.S I am not a Barbie movie fan but I like the parts they are trying to push through the whole representation of the movie .💥
P.S.S I loved Liz pointing out the possibility that 'father' earth would have earned the planet more respect and care it deserves 🤌🤌
Except that male-bashing (which the Barbie movie did and was apparent even in Jamey's defensive reaction to the movie) angers men into *withdrawal* from even all the good that originally was feminism. There's nothing wrong about being defensive after getting slapped in the face. A slap angers one to converse only in the sense of expressing strong disagreement with it. Ends don't justify the means. More and more men, and even women, disagree strongly with what feminism has come to represent -- a political ideology on one side of the aisle with a lot of additional tenets and personal hangups piled on top of it beyond just gender equality whilst muddying the inclusive, profoundly simple and inspiring original cause of gender equality. So yes, Barbie serves to create opposition against its own narrative. I guess that's positive in the same way (disclaimer: an unfairly extreme, but illustrative, analogy to follow) as holocaust was in angering the world into conversing about anti-semitism. But just because something angers people into a conversation doesn't make that "something" right or good.
Yes, men have behaved like animals and still often do. Yes, men have oppressed and even enslaved women. Yes, men have been belligerent jerks and self-entitled asses. But to change all that, or whatever remaining legacy patterns thousands of years of that has left in the modern man, does not happen by being a self-entitled jerk right back at men. A higher human quality is needed to educate men and show a higher example. Female copycats only regurgitate the problem of toxic masculinity.
Am sorry to have offended you that wasn't my intention, though let's just cut to the point, can you please state a few higher human qualities that can exemplify easier outcomes like Jamie always says some do-ables or actionables that really dont involve a conversation in there ...
P.S I respect your take that tit for tat wont bell the cat and I understand why you get offended too.
@@itsAmrita00 No offense taken on my part whatsoever. In fact, very much enjoying all these deep-dives into important themes.
The higher road is women inviting men and men inviting women as *companions* to *jointly* raise a higher standard of *human* behaviour (rather than male or female behaviour) which evenly balances all the good virtues that have been traditionally regarded exclusively as masculine or feminine domain -- a balance between strength and tenderness, grace and justice, frankness and love, encouragement and positive challenge, kindness and righteous anger, respect and respectability, humility and healthy confidence, courage and tact, wisdom and patience, listening and sharing, et cetera.
These are universal human values and we can/should all excel at them without these being mutually exclusive or competitive. But we're also all a work in progress and can't expect perfection nor be impatient with one another nor ourselves.
P.S. Show men by example that the adversarial method (toxic masculinity) has never produced sustainable reform. Don't copy that method and perpetuate the very problem you're trying to solve.
Barbie movie is essentially a political sermon masquerading as a satire to make it softer, funnier and by extension more palatable to wider audiences. Star Wars doesn't preach a political ideology but *teaches* a spiritual philosophy.
The principle of equality of women and men was not presented as an inspiring goal of comradeship in Barbie where we really need and value each other. But rather it preached a particular political narrative that the 'real world' is a place where most men treat women as sexual objects and servants to male whims. This caricature 'real world' in Barbie is just as much a fantasy as the Barbie world is. The reality is far more nuanced, complex, and far less extreme.
Ultimately, this type of 'satire-softened' demonization of men is divisive rather than inspiring. Seeing *everything* as patriarchy is ultimately not only erroneous but an unhelpfully spiteful mindset. It's unhealthy to teach it to girls or boys, especially in the deceptive and irresistible guise of a fun parody.
Whilst alerting to certain real world ills and strengthening self-love in women, I'm afraid the movie's political and cynical underlying portrayal of men only makes men more defensive rather than elicit their support in fighting the real inequalities that still exist.
It is also blissfully oblivious to the violent discrimination of women in large swathes of the world outside the privileged West which the movie unapologetically represents, while, paradoxically, demonizes. Women which, were they to copy the snarky snides and dismissive antics taught by this thoroughly American movie in the name of equality (and which should obviously never be cancelled nor criminalized), would get them either beaten or killed.
Barbie offers no viable tools to fight their cause and yet they're the worst victims of patriarchy.
Unfortunately it is more palatable for most of the 'woke' movement if narratives are simplified and stereotyped, that way individual thought is not necessary, just a nodding head with a faraway gaze. it's sad that critical thinking is not encouraged we are instead just meant to agree without question or be shunned (cancelled) by the group
@@dizmop Agreed, stereotypes appeal to selfish impulse rather than intellect. Whether male or female. Political ideologies and some religious ones, too, thrive on stereotypes.
This topic is prone to misunderstandings partly because we fail to differentiate between two seemingly similar but ultimately completely different social phenomena:
(1) On one hand there's a legitimate feminist concern that some men (not all or necessarily even most these days) still feel entitled to act like belligerent bullies and abrasive asses, and tolerate such behaviour from other men even if they don't particularly like being bullied themselves, whilst calling similarly behaving women bitches and naggers. One could call this justifiably 'toxic masculinity' and it's both unfair and ugly. To put an end to this unfairness is a legitimate concern of feminism, and all sensible men should join such a feminist cause as partners.
(2) On the other hand, there are also plenty of women who feel entitled to act like bullies and abrasive asses but who window-dress it as being proud feminists who are 'empowered' and refusing to be judged by a different standard. They are however far less concerned about women's rights and gender equality than they are about the thrill of feeling superior and unchallenged, whereby nobody can ever tell them how to behave. They are not that different from spoilt brats, frat boys and the toxic masculinity described in point 1, but the sad part is they've pretty much hijacked the public discourse on feminism and made feminism look bad.
Rather than creating a new masculine world with a level playing field for *everyone* to act like belligerent jerks and mislabelling it as 'equality', why don't we do just the opposite and raise a better generation where *everyone* is more sensitive, civil and respectful of the fellow-human. Especially towards those that are not very outspoken, assertive, high profile or extroverted. Men or women.
Kinda lost me on this one. As a straight man, Liz made me feel belittled. Her interpretation of Allen felt more like a woman telling me how I’m supposed to value my masculinity. I know it’s probably me still figuring this out, but it really felt like shes just trying to tell us how to feel rather than hearing what he has to say.
Telling men how they're supposed to be is the current state of "dealing with men". Apparently it's ok, because men from the past have done this to women.
Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel, as a less gender conforming man.
@@okaySam I generally value her opinions and insight. But this one was pretty counter intuitive and even belittling at times in this video
@@levih46 Agreed.
In earnest curiosity. What felt so belittling about what Liz said?
Loool ! Alan is clearly supposed to be either gay or asexual.
I like Liz but sometimes her vision of what general masculinity and the modern heterosexual man could or should be is just beyond unrealistic.
I don't understand how in the matriarchy, ken (men) are the problem, and in the real world, men are still the problem. The father of the family never speaks english and the one interaction he has with his daughter is his daughter telling him off for mis-speaking a language he's learning. Why are the main characters so hostile to the only father figure in this movie? I just don't get it.
Pretty disrespectful movie for men from so many different angles. I like the barbie movie, i think it's the perfect movie for a feminist narrative, but it's not for me. It's not for men, and I don't think it did anything for men.
Most people defending this movie: "Hostile against men?! Try being a woman. Those negative feelings you have are invalid and/or a sign that you have to do some inner work; or maybe you just didn't get it."
The movie is actually pretty genius from a toxic point of view. The Kens both symbolize the male idiocy and lack of purpose, but they also symbolize the plight and victimhood of women. Of course in the matriarchy men are useless/obsolete and their dependency on women is annoying. Men are the problem. In the patriarchy (and the "real world") men are abusive/toxic/manipulative morons. Again, they are the problem. This perfectly mirrors the reasoning of many feminists who see men as the eternal problem.
Did you actually watch the whole video? Liz explains the difference between matriarchy and patriarchy and that they are entirely different systems. It would take a simple google search for you to get that info. At the beginning of the movie, Barbieland is not representing matriarchy...it's patriarchy flipped on men to try to gain empathy for women who deal with this type of treatment constantly. It obviously went over your head. I encourage a rewatch for any men who felt this way, but with a less defensive and more open minded attitude. @@okaySam
@@itselisapicc You can interpret it as a matriarchy (which the director of the movie actually does; the interview is on youtube) or you can interpret it as an analogy patriarchy; which is a convenient interpretation, but doesn't really matter, since my point still stands. Hope this didn't go "over your head."
@@okaySam and people say the Barbie movie makes women hate (some) men. I don’t need a movie to hate men like you.😂😂
@@itselisapicc "and people say the Barbie movie makes women hate (some) men. I don’t need a movie to hate men like you.😂😂"
Sorry for any negative experiences you may have had. All the best to you.
As black man, I didn't watch the Color Purple nor Waiting to Exhale. My mother nor any of my relatives made me watch because they knew how divisive the movies could be and how it portrayed black men. Barbie is no exception. I don't believe it's a movie about equality. I believe it's glimpse into what 2050 would be like if men continue to be demonized for existing and what they feel naturally.
"Barbie", as a concept and as term, is being reclaimed by White Feminism as their version of the "N-Word". Both nauseating 🤢 and tragically hilarious 😂 But to each their own, I suppose 🙄 I really appreciate the perspectives Liz and Jamey brought up in this discussion. It got me thinking critically, and I'd like to address a few points that they made. I haven't seen the movie myself, not because I disagree with the message....I had aversions to thee aesthetic. What annoys me are critiques from Men that they didn't feel represented by the "Kens". When there was clearly a "Barbieland" and a "Real World" in the film 🤨 Rules of the Patriarchy, Kens weren't intended toys for males to begin with! They were psy-op tools to program young girls. Being born in 1980, our toy models were He-Man and G.I. Joes. Barbarians and Soldiers. HEROES.
To the Female Women reading this comment, I'll let you in on a little secret about Patriarchy. Patriarchy is War Culture, masquerading as "Civilized". In such a culture, Females/Women are seen as the Prize of the Conquerors. Hence, why so much value is put on their Beauty and not their Intelligence. It was mentioned that Men generally believe Women to be less intelligent. But there's a nuance to that sentiment..... It's not as simple as Women being considered and seen as less intelligent. Matter of fact, many intelligent Men acknowledge and appreciate intelligent Women. It's just that in the System of Patriarchy, a woman's intelligence is deprioritized into irrelevance. Possession of Beauty, is what denotes the status of a Men in the System of Patriarchy. And Women are considered a principled object in this philosophy. Every other quality a woman possesses are considered "ornamental accentuations". I don't subscribe to this, however I'm still moving towards deprogramming this indoctrination 🙏🏼🤲🏼🙇🏽♂️
And to Jamey's point about Ms. Margot Robbie being centered as the "traditional" aesthetic archetype for Barbie, not only might it be problematic for Girls/Women of the Global Majority.... but it unintentionally reinforces a particular Body Type Standard of Beauty.
That being said, this particular Psy-Op works in countering the Body Positivity Pro-Obesity Psy-Op. Resulting in potentially physically healthier Women, though perhaps at the price of some of their mental health? 🤔 As a Passive Accelerationist, I'm HERE FOR IT! 🤪