Modern Dating: Consent, Boundaries and Respect With Liz Plank | The Man Enough Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2023
- #ManEnoughPodcast #ManEnough #masculinity #undefined
TW: Sexual Assault, Abuse, Consent
Join Liz and Jamey as they dive deep into the complexities of consent, boundaries, and the often tumultuous landscape of modern dating. With vulnerability and honesty, Liz shares her most harrowing dating stories, shining a light on the lack of boundaries and consent many women face when dating. They fearlessly explore topics such as abuse, assault, coping mechanisms, and the harm of labeling all men as abusers. By emphasizing increased communication between men and women, Liz and Jamey offer a hopeful path toward healing, understanding, and mutual empowerment.
Timecodes:
03:09 - Liz's dating story
05:20 - People pleasing gets in the way of consent
10:08 - Normalizing assault is a coping mechanism
14:39 - Liz's date felt entitled to her and her body
19:24 - How can women approach issues of consent with more autonomy?
22:21 - Abuse is not black and white
25:37 - Responding to abuse head on
28:40 - Liz reflects on her Man Enough experience thus far
31:21 - Distinguishing hardships between men and women
38:31 - As a society, men's intentions and actions may not align
45:16 - Negative labels help women and hurt men
Quotes:
"This [abuse] is something that you have had to learn to negotiate and that's wrong." - Jamey Heath
“We can't discuss men's hardships the same way we discussed women's oppression." - Liz Plank
"Most men would not say they blame women outright, but I'm not interested in men's intentions, I'm looking at Men's actions." - Liz Pank
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HOSTS: Justin Baldoni, Liz Plank, and Jamey Heath
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Executive Producers: Justin Baldoni, Jamey Heath, Tarah Malhotra-Feinberg, Marc Pritchard, Anna Saalfeld, Chris Corcoran
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Dear Liz, thank you for your courage to share your personal experiences so publicly. Many women will regognise the experience and maybe find the courage to talk about it. Talking about boundries, consent and choice. THANK YOU❤
@annescholten9313: It will probably inspire men to find the courage to talk about their experiences as well, because her story is inspiring enough to touch abuse victims from a whole diverse range of groups. She really reminds us what love is all about, and it's hard not to feel for that.
Many men would find it too feminine for men to report the abuse they experienced from their abusive wives or husbands, but I think these kinds of videos are exactly what we need to really wake people up.
That's an excellent point Liz: an abusive man can be 95% charming and amazing and 5% of the time physically or emotionally violent.
💯
Scary stuff !!😬😳
Women feminist 99.9%emotionally violent.
What is emotional violence?? Is arguing now abuse too???
Thank you, Liz, for being open and vulnerable in sharing your SA experience and Jamey handling the subject with much thoughtfulness and care.
I've been in similar situations where I allowed things because I feared the repercussions if I spoke up. After much therapy, I'm learning to have a better relationship with my boundaries which has translated into healthier relationships with men.
I'm learning the power of healthy platonic relationships with the opposite sex, which in turn is helping me establish better boundaries. Thank you to the men(+women) who are doing the work. The healing has been transformative.
Thank you for sharing…I’ve been in these situations so many times and now realize all the times I normalized it. Am finally at a point in my life where I’m working on boundaries before I get into another relationship.
Liz, thank you for sharing. It made me cry and ask myself, "Would I be that man you went on the date with?" Thinking about that question and internalizing it made me cry more! Tears for you going through that and tears for myself being afraid of treating a woman in a way I wouldn't treat a sister or mother. I think men need to think very hard about how they respect women. And be vulnerable enough to ask for concent in the heat of the moment.
Your kindness is powerful. Thank you.
This is soooo huge!!! Liz, your story resonates with every woman!! We are indoctrinated to accommodate constantly… to always consider other people’s (especially men’s) feelings over our own. It also shows how we are complicit in our own abuse until we aren’t… until we have healed. It’s slow and circular… not linear. I’m 54 and I’ve been striving for consciousness in this area for decades… it takes so much intention, trial/error, and time. Thank you!
Accommodate when the man is rich let’s be real
Liz - I'm half way through this episode. Thank you for sharing your experience. I am in a situation right now where I'm navigating holding my own boundaries and clearly stating them. Your suggestion of putting a color/shape to the feeling to recognize it in the future is really helpful. It's so difficult when one is in a situation where 99% of the experience is good but that 1% is not.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience as a woman. It is so helpful and was affirming for me to keep thinking about my own circumstances and who has access to my body in what ways. And for me, stating my boundaries clearly....then holding them. I deeply appreciate you and this conversation.
Steven, thank you so much for sharing your experience with the community. Sending lots of love.
This biggest heartbreak is knowing that love bonding like that are the early signs of a manipulator. Male or female. The idea of showering you to draw you in closer and closer and seeing what things they can get away with along the way. Wanting to know everything about you more so than sharing equitably about themselves are signs that the person may use that information to manipulate later on. I’m very happy that you got yourself out of that when you did Liz.
Every woman knows this feeling. it's the people pleasing side of us that we grew up with!!! We always think about the other person before us even if it's dangerous, uncomfortable, wrong, etc
Most men are terrified of even going up to a woman they are interested to try and make a connection, if that isn't people pleasing and trying to appease other people then I do not know what is. Most of us men never get the time of day from women and rarely feel seen, bombarded that we a toxically masculine and shamed for our healthy romantic and sexual desires.
I used to have blurry boundaries like Liz describes. It sucks. It's not shameful, it's a result of cultural conditioning. Thanks for your vulnerability and courage in sharing. My work with 12 Step programs really helped me to identify these inappropriate control behaviors like choking on a fist date, a bazillion birthday presents on a second date, hand on the sex on the third date. I think clear boundaries and consent are really sexy.
Thank you so much for being vulnerable and sharing your experiences
Divorce is never the way out, My wife and I have been having issues before I sort out help from a spiritual adviser,i wasnt going to let my marriage of 18years crash
@LenParliament5 well not the orthodox way but i was referred by a friend to a spiritual adviser and healer
@LenParliament5 her name is *Victoria Lee Hess* ,and she is a great spiritual adviser as well as caster
you can look her name up online and you will find all you need.
Liz, you were trained and socialized to betray yourself, and noticing your wants and boundaries, and asserting them, takes practice. We all need to have compassion for ourselves and others that we have so much to unlearn and learn.
Way to go Jamey with stating your goal of waking up weekends! You are so inspiring, i remember the episode you were admitting how you felt badly for not doing that, and was thrilled to see you moving forward. My wish for you is that you can sonetime arrive and be good with how 'enough' you already are. You are loved by so many, and have served so many of us through theae episodes and your videos.
In response to the comment on women communicating healthy boundaries - when people feel violated, it can be difficult to also do the emotional labor in managing their experience and educating the people who pushed their boundaries. It's important for men to keep checking in with each other and keep each other accountable. Its often been my experience that when I communicated a boundary that has been crossed, the man would make himself into a victim so that I would empathize with him rather than have my voice heard. So this could be a tricky conversation to navigate when men are not used to being "called out by women" and "being wrong".
Thank you for providing a platform for men to start navigating this issues and conversations.
Thank you for sharing it. It was really interesting and I think you touched some really good topics. This one of my favourite podcasts, sometimes you said things like make me think and inspire me to trying to be better in my life.
Thank you man enough team for sharing this, for making this amazing work and for the subtitles. I really appreciate this work. Lots love and have a good day!
Liz voiced so many things I’ve thought and felt in this episode and I’m grateful
I think this is one of my favorite episodes so far. I've watched it multiple times.
Thank you so much
You're epic Liz! ❤ Thank you for your honesty. One thing you mentioned about the reason why things are still bad for women, etc is hate. I don't think hate is the main issue, I think CONTROL is the biggest motivator of behaviours and feelings of hate or subconscious biases.
Thank you for sharing your perspective
I love this episode! It's sad, growing up my body didn't belong to me for many different reasons. It's always good to share our stories to better understand each other.
I feel like there's some confusion about the definition of consent in our society. And as time progresses, I know it changes and evolves.
Consent is an enthusiastic, yes!
Not someone who is quiet,
hesitant,
pressured,
asleep,
scared,
underage,
under the influence of a drug or alcohol!
You just never know who you're hurting and it doesn't hurt to check in.
I have definitely experienced and lived your story, very relatable. Thank you for being so strong and sharing it with us!
So don't have worry about bonderies
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you Liz for your vulnerability & for sharing your experience (& then your feelings about it in real time!) I get that it’s embarrassing. Please know that it’s really helpful to hear this from you, someone I see as a conscious & strong feminist. If you’re willing, I’d love for you to share what you’d do now, if this would happen again. Would you do or say anything differently to the guy? I for one, have difficulty “listening to my body” when I’m IN a situation with another person. I’m still learning to listen to my body when I’m ALONE & not distracted by being with someone else. It’s something I aspire to…to listen then follow my own “prompts” in the moment. Huge learning curve. Again, thank you & here’s to all of us listening to ourselves & following it. And Jamey, I really appreciate the respectful way you affirm Liz (& us women) & the questions you & the way you ask them. So much more I could say. Thank you both for this incredible & vulnerable conversation. 🙏🏼💞
I love that you guys are having these conversations. Thank you so much for sharing Liz! I think you have nothing to be embarrassed about, and that is a common way women often feel when their autonomy and respect are violated. I’m glad you continually said “if it is safe” because in a lot of situations like that, you don’t know if it’s safe to say something or not, because you’ve already been put in a position where you’re not truly safe or respected. I think we often feel ashamed for not standing up for ourselves without considering that we didn’t feel safe to, even at a subconscious level. And like you said, you didn’t realize what was happening or how you felt about it completely, and that’s really common too with people experiencing abuse. I’m glad that you call it what it is. Abuse. That term encompasses a lot more than what I think most people realize it does. In cases where you don’t know someone, and they do something like that, how do you know what’s safe to do or say with that person? And even with someone you have known for a long time, it’s possible that they have kept things hidden from you and you’re still not sure what’s safe or not. Finally, I have found a lot of the men I’ve know to get very offended if I speak up and set a boundary and then get mad at me like I’ve done something wrong or treated them unkindly. And even have women back them up because they too are conditioned to think that it’s ok for men to set boundaries, but it’s not ok for women to. So then, it becomes double or triple abuse for speaking up. I think it’s a combination of women being seen and treated as less entitled to respect/consideration, men not being emotionally mature enough and not aware enough of the dynamics that favor them, and both men and women are undereducated about what abuse is, what healthy relationships look like, and how to show up in a healthy way. I think most men and women who have experienced abuse don’t realize all that abuse is and continue the cycle of abuse without realizing, or even feeling like they are being loving and caring in the process. I also think that, for both men and women, there can be a resistance to seeing places that need improvement because of the delicacy of emotional well-being that can be experienced cause from the abuse, trauma, conditioning previously experienced.
I also want to mention, that I know men who have experienced abuse as children and then grow up to experience abuse from women and are abusive themselves in certain ways. Like what you were say, Liz, about 95% caring and loving and 5% abusive. That can go for anyone, so I think it is important to mention that this can be both men or women on either or both sides of these dynamics. However, I think the patriarchy has really been influential it these unhealthy dynamics. One reason is because men do have the upper hand physically, socially, and we have all been conditioned to believe this. And also, because when abused, you can become abusive and there are a lot of abused women today and throughout history. The idea of being more “masculine “ aka toxic becomes a very attractive option to women who are trying to stand up for themselves. It’s a very vicious cycle.
Before I start talking in circles about a complex issue, I think it still comes down to what you guys have mentioned over and over again. It’s not ok to put the onus of change or standing up for themselves on the oppressed/abused. The onus has to be first and foremost on the abuser to change and make themselves a safe person to be around. A safe environment for the oppressed to freely speak up and set boundaries/receive respect without fear.
Thank you so much for sharing with the community
Men do not neccesarily have the upper hand socially. And the 'patriarchy' no longer exists in certain western nations like the U.S.A, Canada and the U.K and more specifically London where I reside. Being more masculine does not equate being more toxic either. Your socio economic class, attractiveness to the opposite sex as well as social and educational status and support network all contribute to whether you have 'the upper hand' socially, this is not gender specific.
Masculine does not equal toxic, part of the reason we have this issue if women's refusal to even try to understand men. You think you have us figured out, that we just want control, dominance and are ignorant to the thoughts and feelings of others. It's way more complex than that and you're entire breakdown is just surface level like everything on this channel.
thank you for this! How many of us women have endured painful things just so that we could get out of the situation or please the man. Our culture is the problem. This is why feminism is so hard for the father culture, because it is inconvenient to them to have to leave space for another's feelings and boundaries.
I love both of you deeply. Thank you for always teaching me. And for asking the questions. And being vulnerable.
❤️❤️❤️
The last part of the conversation, starting at minute 31 was SO POWERFUL! Liz, you brought up so many good examples in response to Jamey “challenges” (I love Jamey and I love he listens and is still in a learning process about women and women’s feminist journey). As a Mexican woman who’s constantly challenging herself, it’s easy to relate to everything you said, and yes, I actually just experienced something with a new group of women I recently met, about what you just mentioned, we can be super abusive between each other and make so much harm. I don’t know if I would label it as hate, but I think is definitely an opposite of love and it has everything to do with power, which at the end of the day is our everyday “battle”. I think it’s part of our social construction and it’s definitely coming from a patriarchal system and unfortunately sometimes from places where there’s been toxic-masculinity practices (not always acknowledged). Thank you again for everything you shared.
Thank you for sharing this perspective!
Parents are responsible to teach their children how to treat others and to teach us to ask questions for clarity, to voice needs/wants and not wants, to be effectively heard when we set boundaries. We all have a responsibility to make sure our friends are called out for crossing lines and misbehaviour. Speaking up is halting or interrupting the act of causing and perpetuating harm.
I don't necessarily agree with that. Some parents are absent, not equipped and most kids copy bad behavior from other kids. It's not realistic imo.
I’ve decided the risk of giving unsolicited advice with this comment is worth the reward if it helps someone ❤️
So heres some wise words I have recieved when it comes to these gray area’s in a relationship: a person doesn’t need to lay their hands on you to abuse you. The other is that a fight isn’t strictly defined by the arguments context, instead the real substance lies in how you apologize and resolve the argument
❤ keep it up with the great content!!!! ❤
Thank you for sharing
"I tried to like it so that it wasn't this horrible thing that was happening to me, which was that I was being choked by my date, a stranger. And so my first impulse, was like, "Okay, try and enjoy this." Which is crazy. I'm saying this, and this is deeply humiliating for me. I was uncomfortable and instead of stopping- admitting to myself and saying to the person, "Hey, I'm a little uncomfortable," or, "I don't wanna," you know, setting a boundary, you try and convince yourself that you like it. That is something that I'm trying to unlearn- trying not to like something so that it makes the other person less uncomfortable." ~Liz Plank
thank you Liz for sharing with us that story. We love you. It definitely resonates with me this thing of "trying" to like something as a woman. As you, I'm trying not to try that much haha also, this podcast has been very much healing for me, I too cried so so much when any episode finished or maybe in the middle, apparently for no reason. But somehow I knew it was just because it was healing for me to be able to witness such a compassionate space with so much intention. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this space, you're doing amazing
Thank you so much for sharing, we are so glad you're apart of this community
It's about the liberation of men as well, because men and boys are also assaulted and men and boys also have challenges with saying no and setting boundaries.
Liz, I am sorry what happened to you on the date. As a men I was listening your story and at the moment you said he chucked you I shout out loud "wtf!!!" and I felt shame and embarrassed. It is not appropriate to do that at any level and circumstances. Next time if you feel uncomfortable in a date, please said it and if nothing happen..."run away" in a candid way.😱
Something I and other friends feel that I feel like relates to this is the sense of scarcity around men - like am I really going to let this one thing stop me from dating this man who finally treated me how I’ve been dreaming of being treated? And when we take the step back we see of course, like Liz does here, that the one thing is actually very and incredibly alarming, but in the moment, I think that scarcity mindset (which is rooted in some valid things, like it IS hard to find a man who will do those gentlemanly things) overrides our intuition
Thank you for sharing. It's incredibly hard to balance your needs, desires and fears with what you know rationally is best/healthy for you. In the long run, you're more likely to find what you are truly looking for with patience and a commitment to your own self-respect than by compromising those key elements. Glad you're part of our community and willing to share like this.
This intense conversation brings up realities of the culture. My experience is very different in different parts of the country and educational levels even though abuse is at all socioeconomic levels. My recent experiences on the west coast of Florida is full of intentional mysogeny learned by younger males from political figures. Examples: Driving pickup trucks aggressively to intimidate the public, yelling madly at pedestrians crossing at a crosswalk especially a woman, parking a van in the middle of a narrow street and being mysogenistic when kindly asked to make room. This year returning to Florida was THE worst. There was a layer of I don't care on most people. Many females have left the state, others are sick with cancer; one died following a knee replacement; police don't answer calls unless rated by them worthy enough since Black Lives Matter; nothing much happens as things have been broken since covid; a lot of people don't work especially the young, Healthcare is hard to get due to shortages, children don't have teachers. There is a layer of toxicity so deep most everyone has developed a bulging belly from liver overload. Lots of male rage, hatreds about many issues: rental displacement, homelessness, hunger, calls for help not being responded, major hatreds of women to blame for their lives not working. Most of this is on a huge unconscious level. And there is a demand that males retain control and power at all costs: the abuse cycle. I try to quietly provide understanding as I am almost 70 and single. You're a target here if alone, female, disabled in any form. I had abusive couples living all around my neighborhood. If you get a man to come by, they leave you alone. Very weak bullies. I try to give explanations to quiet the fear behind this negativity. The world is changing too fast for fixed personalities. They are frightened. They don't want or can handle change. They don't have the tools or skills to deal with their issues or life experience once things get difficult because mommy and daddy did it all. Wow. Now it's time to really grow up, take responsibility for behaviors, actions. I say find the right male role model. He is NOT the loudest mouth. He is quieter, hard working, serving. And guess what? The incels that followed my advice got working, built their businesses, made money, started producing testosterone instead of estrogen emotionality. (According to John Gray and research, men who are not serving produce less testosterone.) These guys got more confident and girlfriends and dates where there had been none. When we prayed at church and did food drives the hatred decreased significantly. Just to know someone cared and responded made a difference. Some were guided to leave as in that county, Pasco, nothing was available to help young homeless. The older ones are mental patients from closed mental hospitals and veterans with PTSD. There are horrible games from war and crazy in the collective unconscious there mixed with political unrest, mysogeny there and patterns from other cultures I had to do detox baths, swim, herbs, eat greens to stay minimally healthy there. My healthy body pH went from 7 to 5, a cancer range. And I had a career of teaching health. Other places I live are more healthy and mature. I do feel some politically motivated rage at women on a much smaller scale. Often these guys never dealt with their mother issues with wives, girlfriends.more individual than collective and a different political party runs this state. There is a much bigger social safety net. I see the most toxic people are ones that don't deal with their past and heal their lives. It comes out in the politics.
Boundaries is very important
Yeah it is
Thx for these conversations. You guys are the best!!!💜
Man Enough needs to reach junior high and high school students.
I'm sorry, if someone stabs me with a fork on a first date, there won't be a second date. The comparison is quite on point. If you get choked, stop seeing that person. Or at least communicate your boundaries. Sad that so many people are confused about things like this. Definitely something that has to be taught to kids and young adults.
Don't shame survivors; I can tell you this is easier said than done. When this happens, and it catches you off guard, your flight/fight/freeze can betray you. From the outside, yes it makes sense. But have some compassion, you never know in the moment how you'll actually react
Women have been harrased whether it's sexual or not by men for years to the point that they can't recognise a red flag immediately. It may seem obvious to you, but to a girl growing up who gets hit, harassed, violated nonsexually and sexually who became a woman who believes if a man does it once, at least he's not bad as the others who hurt her so much because he does it once, she discard her safety to go along with it as long he treats her wonderfully 90% of the time, comparing that guy to every boys and guys who were 90% terrible to her and 10% wonderful.
Women's sense of safety has been distorted by years of being violated in various ways, so it's significantly harder for women to voice their concerns when something happens, their immediate response is to sweep under the rug as long he's good to her 90% of the time. When you grow up in that kind of culture of how men treat women, it becomes the norm to ignore it as long she's not actively being hit physically wise or raped.
That's why there's a conversation surrounding consent to both help men and women to understand that nobody should put up with such behaviours and have more conversation about what does consent look individually, it makes women feel safer and both men as well women gets to recognise red flags quickly in a romantic/sexual partner.
@@andreazambrano3895 We're not talking about "in the moment". Nobody is getting shamed. If you keep coming back to the person who stabbed you, we need to have a grown up discussion about the reasons.
" trying to like something to lesson the other person feel less uncomfortable ". Alarming, 😬
When women have that feeling.
If a woman says she is uncomfortable making out at a bar, it is up to her to let the man know, the woman should take responsibilty for that.
He’s spending so long trying to convince her that women should make men comfortable with how they talk about hatred. 50:04 and surrounding conversation.
It’s hatred, and maybe let’s examine why we care more about protecting misogynists feelings than we care about speaking truth.
I would love to hear Liz's story, her explanation and understanding and what conclusions her intelligent self came to without her being interrupted every few minutes and forced to correct the person actively victim-blaming her. You know how you know it's victim-blaming? The same way you know someone who starts off a joke or story by saying, "Now I'm not saying this to be racist or anything ..." is about to show them self racist. Every time he interrupts her protesting that he isn't interrupting, and then says I'm not saying you liked it, it is just cringe.
For me the key major point is set boundaries to not make out with someone if there's no desire. Regardless if it's the first date or fiftieth, it's supposed to be pleasurable not neutral ! Also because it's easier to set biundaries potentially in a bar rather than in a car and if a guy is physically dangerous.
At that point I could see the strategy to downplay it as potentially useful. Yet I really feel like women accept neutral feelings when kissing ought to be something to anticipate and savor ! It's useful to hear this story because it's common to go along with something and it's so far from ideal. So when we can set boundaries it's important to honor our feelings at low levels, even in a neutral space rather than only in negative territory. Also I don't agree that people can be abusive and love. Maybe they can care yet love takes skill.
I am in a process, but cannot wait to say: omg Liz, thank you so much for sharing this story! And all the explanations on how a sexual victim may feel like it is not happening! Just blowed my mind already, I am gonna track my feelings now more accurate, thanks again loads!
the guy clearly thought he was doing something sexy and adventurous but he seems to be completely unaware of sexual boundaries and personal space, however, I just watched 'The Whatever' podcast and in this particular episode all the girls said they liked being choked, some went on to describe how to do it, also in another episode, all the girls unanimously said they don't like a guy to ask for permission, it makes them lose attraction and respect for the guy, they like a guy to take control and be masterful, this of course sends mixed messages and some of us who listen to women don't really know what to do as we want to be men, and we want women to be happy and satisfied
Thank you for sharing this perspective with us
I think it's best to have a conversation about it before you're both in that heated moment. If she hasn't explicitly told you that she herself likes to be choked without a warning, assume she doesn't. And when you have that conversation, establish a way for her to safely let you know when to stop choking her.
@dizmop, hi. There are three kind of men and women: healthy ones, broken ones, and damaged ones. The healthy ones are decent, respectful and disciplined men/women that come from healthy families and brought up with respect for other human beings and with moral standards. The broken men and women are the ones that need healing, time and therapy to heal their wounds, be them because separation, divorce, accidents, war traumas etc. The damaged ones are the womanizers, narcissists, drug addicts beyond repair, alcoholics, psychopaths, etc. A healthy person, man/woman can discern when the other person is crossing the line and would not put up with it under any circumstances.
Mothers have to do a better job at bringing up and teaching their children s what’s right and what’s not. Society would be better. Blessings.
@@cessy514 I was just using choking as an example of how signals can be misconstrued due to gender expectations, and what seems to be the inevitable misinterpretation of sexual signals and language. I suppose I'm asking, in real life, not an ideal, is some 'minor' sexual violation unavoidable?
@@carmenkamberos1156 but to make any use of these observations someone would have to identify as one of the models you stated, and people generally don't do that, they think what they do is right
I loved a man (boy at the time, he was 18, I was 16). We were together for 7 years. He was the first boy to love me, or even to show interest in me, and it was very precious for my soul that was starved for love/affection. I'm sitting here age34, and thinking of him and the things he made me do, because i didn't know better. Like months before we slept together for the first time (my big first time), he said things like "you can't stop sex. Don't start it if you don't want to finish, or else. I'll get upset. I'll get angry". Growing up with an abusive father that meant "agressive" for me. And I remember times when i felt uncomfortable, but i was AFRAID that he'll turn agressive, or I'll ruin things because i express my discomfort or that i am not feeling right. He told me (again, didn't know better), that flavoured condoms were invented so you can put it on with your mouth, but then went on to regular sex and it caused an allergic reaction, like my insides were on fire, and i cried, but he didn't stop, and i felt like i mustn't stop him, because of the "or else". I completely discredited any of my feelings in light of the rules I were told beforehand, that were non negotiable. I was young and I never questioned them. I am literally weeping for the young me and all the times i didn't say anything. And I now understand why he had such a hard time letting me go at the end, and why he struggled to find a new partner. He was too old for such power games to go unchallanged. I only learned to enjoy sex my way years after we broke up, because it was engraved in me that what i feel is secondary. He didn't even do this in a malicious way.... as you say Liz, it's the default sense of entitlement.
Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing your story with us. The team is sending you lots of love.
Liz; thank you for your bravery in sharing, I so agree women are so conditioned to put men, their egos and everyone else first, to lessen their discomfort by ignoring our own, it sucks big time and it’s a conversation that is so rarely had! Jamie, part of me loves your faith in men and people but part of me is also incredibly triggered by it, because while I know you are trying to have a conversation and present the another point of view it sometimes feels like you are not truly listening to the overwhelmingly common experiences that liz and other women describe and therefore are failing to acknowledge the reality that is for many women. It’s taken me a long time to counter conditioning and start speaking up for myself and setting boundaries, I work in a very masculine workplace and find that I am frequently having to challenge sexist or misogynistic attitudes or set boundaries for my comfort and safety and not once have I had a guy turn round to me and acknowledge the harm in their actions or agree to not do it again, but frequently I have been told that I am over sensitive at best. These attiitudes are so conditioned in men and society as a whole that they often don’t see or want to see when the issue is pointed out.
Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing with us
Men are conditioned to bend over backwards at the behest of any inconvenienced woman. The fact you all think this is one sided is ridiculous.
Listening to this, I’m realizing the same thing happened to me and I acted like it wasn’t a big deal :(
I think the argument that most men would react decently to being denied affection/a sexual favor is questionable... of course we read and hear so many stories of men reacting violently, but even in cases where that doesn't happen - have you never witnessed the easily bruised ego of a man after he's denied anything sexual? arguing, guilt tripping, victimizing galore, even if it's passive aggressive, even it's a coping mechanism for not being able to handle rejection, whatever. the socialization women go through that makes them default to being appeasing in thesecan be so deeply rooted that it's subconscious, which I do think Liz was conveying. I get so tired of the "so why didn't you leave" adjacent arguments - "why did you go on a second date" is the same question in a disguise.
You have to understand that most women have almost endless dating options, men do not, time is something you do not get back, if Im on a date with a woman Im there because I want a romantic, emotional and sexual experience and connection, if those 3 things are not present after the first couple of dates, there will be no 3rd date.
Most of you live in the realm of abundance when it comes to sexyal options and access, also it's not high on the females list of wants. You all don't understand men's nature and just demonize them for it.
I'm halfway through the conversation and feeling so much. These are the kinds of conversations that are missing from the entire me too movement. I see the line of when we call things rape moving to a point where the definition of the word becomes so loose that 80 percent of women would have been "raped" under that definition. That is not helpful. These things are often subtle and nuanced and we need to teach people proper communication to stop this from happening. If I only would have been told as a girl a little more often that I really don't have to do anything I don't want to do many of these borderline assaults wouldn't have happened and, like liz mentioned, this is exactly what I will do if I ever have a daughter. Instead I was surrounded by hookup culture where it is cool (yes, even for girls) to have sex as much as possible and in as many ways and in the weirdest places. You lose the connection with your body and don't even know what your boundaries are.
Also the conversation about teaching your son not to violate women and not women to be careful is bs in my opinion. We should do both. Even good men are not mind readers and we should teach girls that it is okay to set a boundary and how to do that.
IT WAS YOUR CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE. That said read the REAL statistics, Women initiate over 2/3 of divorces, cheat far more than men in marriages, and get 70% of the alimony in divorces, and men under 30 are more 2 times more likely to be sexless and single compared to women, so good attempt of trying to sneak in an excuse to blame it on men, when you women are being the promiscuos ones and now regretting it because you are getting to old to play that game, it is YOUR and only your own fault so take accountability, besides that point the Me too false accusations on men have done irreversible damage it has done to relationships.
Thank you for that conversation & sharing the dating experience. I feel you, Liz. I've experienced sth similar in the past...and felt somewhat confused and a bit ashamed...
On a second note, I'd like to challenge the comment about R. Reeves (Of Boys & Men). I saw a couple of his interviews, and I decided to read his book. I was really curious to understand what was going on with men today & with masculinity. I'm about to finish the book, and not once did I see him saying that now we have to speak about men (because we have gone too far with women). Just the opposite. He gives the entire context & examples of where both - women & men still suffer. Quote: "So we have an education system favoring girls and a labor market favoring men. Two wrongs don't make a right".
Was I challenged by Richard Reeves' data? Sometimes I was. But I felt that Reeves is arguing for structural and societal changes for both - men and women. Let's keep what's working for women (& continue on that trajectory) but at the same time let's help these men who simply struggle.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
This is EXACTLY how it happens. I hope there are a lot of men listening and taking notes.
Scary moment of suddenly.. chokin ! 😬😳😳😑
I love you guys, you always touch so many sensitive and deep topics in your conversations.
I do have one observation about this episode thought.
One of the many things that I really appreciate about the show, and the way you do it, is that I always feel safe because of the way you adress each other. Is a very respectful and mindful way, even when you challenge each other, and you dissagree. The way that each one of you has the time to express their ideas and feeling without beeing interrupted, promotes that feeling of safeness and sharing. That been said, I have you say (with all the respect that I can), I was a little bit shaked because in this episode, it did feel like Jaime was interrupting Liz, somewhat abruptly, considering the sensitivity of the topics and the singnificance of the experience that she shared.
I am only saying it in a constructive way.
Also, I think sometimes we experience or emphasize so much on what you share, that it almost feel that we are there too, and I think is very important to care about this kind of things.
I hope i made my point clear, and again, I love al three of you, and admire the work you do here.
Thank you for sharing this perspective with us
@@WeAreManEnoughI love the thumbnail. Having listened to the conversation, the expression on Liz' face speaks volumes. Relatable. 🤔
A female friend recommended I listen to a few episodes as she mentioned that, from a female point of view, this linguistic format represents how women positively digest conversations. I listened and am impressed that Jamey seems to thrive and connect with this conversation format. For me, it was exhausting. Jamey constantly reaffirming that, though he is asking a difficult question from an alternative point of view, he wants to fight the guy and going in circles to affirm he is not validating the guys actions, that mental gymnastics is tedious and exhausting. this may be a great podcast for women, but It really is difficult for the message to reach me because the structure of this conversation is redundant. @36:39, Liz denotes that, using the same language for a subject with different nuances and causes, is distorting the truth. however, when Jamey challenges Liz on using labels (which inherently disregards nuance), is not only ok, but beneficial for women. If you want men to listen, clearly state the problem, clearly state what is fact vs opinion, and what you think a solution is. Lastly, Liz, is your statement @36:23 that "Men struggling in school is not because women" a fact? or perhaps it could be that women stifle men differently than how men stifled women?
Thank you for sharing your perspective with us1
They won't understand this or anything you said. This podcast isn't for men, it's for women and feminized males. They provide no real solutions because they rarely clearly identify the problem. They simply talk about the problem and almost revel in emotions with no clear directive, this is why they are losing to more spaces liek the "redpill" and "manosphere".
Boys and girls performing differently in schools is not only a boy issue. As long as you have mixed school classes you can't have that conversation without talking about girls as well.
You missed the point Liz is talking about. Girls performing better are due to having access to the same resources as boys. The difference is that girls get support from each other, their parents, being emotionally open about their mental health and so on whereas boys aren't getting thar kind of support as much because they were expected to be tough boys who don't need emotional support and mental health support.
The problem is not the girls doing better nor their access to the same education boys gets, it's the fact boys and men don't get much support concerning their mental health and the lack of emotional network support. That's why there's no sense in talking about why girls are doing better, we need to cone up with solutions that can help boys without it coming at the expense of the girls.
That's what Liz is talking about. Direct actions and coming up with solutions that will help boys better than comparing them to girls.
@@AM0rning I don't disagree with you about emotional support, but those are not the reasons boys perform worse in school. And again, you can't talk about performance without addressing both boys and girls. I get that girls are not to blame for the situation, but ignoring the comparative nature of performance is also not the solution.
@@AM0rning this completely wrong though, the main problem is them thinking boys and girls are the same and need the same things/emotional outlets. We're different, and the school systems are catered to the feminine brain, not the masculine.
what has happened to women in this day and age to seriously disrespect themselves by making out with a total stranger on a first date, to let someone they don’t know to enter their sacred space, their body. Who taught them that this is alright and if most women behave like this they need therapy to learn self love and self respect. , to value themselves.
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That's all so shocking. That's porn culture...Some guys are insane at this point!
It is a Radically Feminist Act....to cup a male's balls while driving on a date 🤣 If this conversation were an essay for a Pass/Fail grade, it wouldn't pass. We got an intro, the first body paragraph, and then the conversation was derailed to a whole other topic. I appreciate Liz making an attempt at Vulnerability, but it was just beneath the surface. Jamey's pointing out thee importance of clear communication of boundaries was helpful..... But then he throws off the momentum of the conversation, by stating that he would kick the dude in Liz's story's ass. Mind you, though this man mentioned in the story was tastelessly sexually aggressive, the point of the conversation was that boundaries were pushed that weren't clearly stated as boundaries. Being a retired Player and Adulterer, I'm sure Jamey's no stranger to lecherous behavior. What if the sons of all the women we've shared intimacy with in our past came to us with receipts? How much would we have to answer for? 🤔 I appreciate the show a great deal, but y'all need a proper foil and or someone to keep everyone honest.
Thank you for sharing. Great conversation. What a narcissistic insensitive impulsive guy! It is so stupid for men not to pay attention and understand subtle reactions in women...if they actually want to have good sex with women.
I'm not man enough. I'm simply not enough.
48:36 :(
Maybe I'm alone in this appreciation but the conversation felt imbalanced. With her leading and him tip-toeing and trying to nuance the conversation.
Thank you for the feedback
@@WeAreManEnough Maybe I'm out of touch and it was the right way of reassuring her while offering insightful information about a very important topic. Definitely a very interesting conversation.
Props to her to showing vulnerability, that was very brave.
Yes it would be great if women could be more assertive, but it's victim blaming to take a group of people who have been socialized to never be assertive, then suddenly, with no practice and under the most high stakes situations, suddenly expect them to be able to have this skill. It also ignores the freeze response, which is the most common response to sexual assault, and how it literally makes it IMPOSSIBLE for women(and all genders) to react they way they want to when they feel violated. We are all taught myths that make us think that rape and sexual assault will always be a loud incident, with yelling and fighting, but the reality is that it usually happens quietly and with no resistance, because of the freeze response. Women already blame and shame themselves for everything that is done to them. Please don't add to victim shaming and blaming. We all need to learn how to seek and recognize only ENTHUSIASTIC consent.
Geez LIZZZZZZ!!! OMG thanks for putting a title to that kind of uncomfortableness because at the end of it, you start to blame yourself whytf didn't I stop and set the boundary then and there. You're tying to convince yourself that you are enjoying that excessively physical affection on the first date because you don't want to title that later on it was actually an assault/violation.
I think Liz should absolutely take responsibility for what this guy did to her, she gave him permission to cross the line with her. She did not do anything to stop this guy. He was taking his cues for her..She should feel ashamed of herself, her behaviour is totally inexcusable. These women who allow this behaviour do a disservice to other women.
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Let’s ignore the fact that women like Liz always go for the abusive man lmao
Wait she went on a SECOND DATE? never get married guys these women are broken
Excellent conversations that was so respectful without discrediting each other!
I'd like to add my cents to this conversaton, inaction from men's side can lead to women feeling unsafe in general when they get harrased, sexually violated and abused in public whether that's verbal abuse or a man grabbing her in public in an attempt to stop her from walking away. Most men may be good but inaction is what complicts them in the action done by the loudest minority of men who are violent toward women.
Men doesn't need to play a heroic role in order to save women, it can be something simple as saying "Dude, that's not cool" or calling out their behaviour toward women as long it's a safe situation to do so. Talking with their fellow guys friends about inappropriate behaviour can help also. Add active bystander’ training to the school curriculum can help both women and men to intervene in situations where women and men are being harrassed. Here's a great resource about bystander effect training - preventdomesticviolence.ca/our-work/men-and-boys/the-calling-in-men-project/bystander-approach/
Adding what Jamey said about what's inappropriate and appropriate, that's a conversation people need to have with each other becsuse it varies person to person so have frank conversations with people about what they like, what they are uncomfortable with and respect their boundaries. How can we know each other's boundaries if we don't talk about it in the first place and that led to people feeling violated, unable to talk about is because the culture is mired with misogyny so they don't feel safer to speak up about having their boundaries crossed. Women get told that it's not a big deal and men get told to toughen up when their boundaries gets violated so the best course here is to have a explicit conversation about what makes them uncomfortable and respect it, don't try to convince them to tolerate it. Talk about it openly with friends, family and romantic, sexual partners. Even a quick check in as Liz said can help too.
Let's all work towsrd building a better community where we can feel safe and fully in charge of our own autonomy ❤
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you so much for this brave episode. Love you podcast and ease tell beyond meat that I am going to pick up some sausages soon just to support your amazing podcast!!
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