Liz thanks for being so vulnerable. I honestly struggle with the same idea of choosing the wrong partner. Growing I've first hand seen what life is like choosing the wrong partner, and I don't want to end up with a bad partner who I have a child with. This fear is probably why I am still single as well.
I can’t imagine being with someone and having a kid with him only to realize a decade later they they are the wrong person for you. That said I do think modern people’s expectations are too high - we seem to want someone that checks all boxes
I appreciate Jamey keeping it real and not pandering too much. He raised a lot of important points. Also appreciate Liz opening up. Stigmatizing conversations like this is part of the problem.
Before meeting my girlfriend of almost 2 years, I was also focusing on what Liz was describing as her recent approach to dating. When I went on a date, I would pay attention to myself and see if the person made me feel like my most expansive self, or conversely if I felt like there were sides of me that I wasn't showing. If I felt like I couldn't be or wasn't being my full self with the person and being appreciated for that, I knew it wasn't the right person for me. That was a huge shift in how I approached dating. Before that I was nearly solely attuned with how the other person felt about me and how I could impress/please them.
What he doesn't get is that most women are not choosing the wrong partners, patriarchy is in fact what makes many men bad partners, who would probably otherwise make good partners. He isn't getting her point and she's not getting through in this conversation. Men automatically blame women for choosing wrong or having trauma without ever questioning why so many woman avoid relationships. It's simply because traditional relationships are not for everyone and patriarchal men are men who project on women and take no accountability. Women don't want that, we want men to listen and understand that patriarchy has to go if we want to have healthy hetero relationships now. They just don't listen & assume they know what women want and what's right for us. Women have to stay single because there simply are not enough good men out there.
“Not enough good men out there” 💀 Cope. Blaming 50% of the population for why your love life isn’t the way you want it is something a misogynistic incel would say lmao. There are plenty of decent men with good moral values out there. Its just so much easier to pretend they’re all awful as a way to justify you not taking the risk in dating because you’re trying to avoid being heartbroken. Everybody is afraid of getting hurt and chances are, the pursuit of your life partner will probably involve some pain along the way, but that’s a risk many of us are willing to take because the potential reward is so great.
I have always been ENM (ethically non-monogamous). It's just how I love. I experienced a great deal of loss early in life, and so I came to love without attachment. And I tend to have feelings for people who are of a similar disposition. I've had traditional relationships before, and they were meaningful, but it's not best for me. Just like any relationship, communication. Communication. Communication. Candor and awkwardness and discomfort save resentment down the road. Communication.
Why are all these silly terms coming out? You aren't monogamous and you are honest about it. These terms are so tacky. Whenever anyone uses them I know to stay away. Like the weirdos still wearing masks. I know who to avoid.
@@alyssawoodman I think they're ridiculous, personally. It's just a habit of being on dating apps and feeling tired of people not understanding that I have multiple partners who know about each other. The clumsy, limiting term bypasses the need for that conversation.
I’ve been thinking about how I want to feel in a relationship too! Also how sexism/patriarchy affects our dating experiences. I worry about picking the wrong partner and only want a healthy relationship where growth is a huge part of it. I’m not willing to settle just to be in a relationship. I think Liz was put in the spot. It’s a horrible question when we get that the questions, “Why are you still single?” It makes it sound often like a judgement. What’s wrong with you?
Please define patriarchy for me .. the way it’s been described to me in the past makes it seem like there is indeed a patriarchy but in the Middle East and not America.
I’m a single mom of 2. One is 2.5 and the other is 8 months. Jamie and Liz are both 100% correct about raising a child alone vs partnered. It’s incredibly hard to do it alone, but I also know choosing a bad partner makes it 10x harder. I’m there. My thought is that a best friend is a great idea. You have trust and longevity of relationship with them already. You’ve seen them through seasons of life. The child can have both parents around if you have two houses or apartments next to each other or even a communal home. Do not rely on your community to be there. They will have things that come up and at the end of the day it’s all on you, so make sure you have a committed and fair partnership. Romance is not necessary for family and love.
Hmm i love that this podcast brings together very different perspectives. At the same time, it definitely feels like Jamey was pushing his view on Liz and not actually listening to what she was saying because she didn't put it the way he wanted to hear.
Oh, my. This is such a great topic to discuss, however I think it took many turns around it and it wasn’t really approached directly. I love Liz, I think she still feels nervous sometimes with certain topics and that shows she’s continuously working in herself and searching and learning and growing and it’s awesome to listen to her. I appreciate Jamey, I love his deep voice that comes along with deep thoughts however I feel he still has a long road deconstructing himself as he can still be really stubborn and a bit arrogant. I think Justin balances everything, leading with his accurate, humble, honest and very often sweet interventions, I miss him in the episodes he’s not in.
Interesting podcast. For me it revealed just how much of a blessing it is to have this version of Jamie now after he has gone through so much growth. I appreciate his leadership and vulnerability. That said, I see his question and his answers represent an enormous blind spot. Liz nails his question in the beginning with the system of patriarchy being a main deterrent to lasting heterosexual partnerships. Too bad they didn't explore that. Instead we explore the empty trail of women (and men) don't learn enough about their partners. It seems quite telling that Jamie's first wife waited 30 years before remarrying. And though Jamie has indeed grown and matured, since then, the new husband is protective of his wife and is suspicious and defensive towards Jamie at first. Now why would that be? Jamie got 3 shots at marriage. And is now mature and committed enough to make this one last. Good for him and where he's at now. But somehow this also has an echo for me, of applauding fathers who actually take care of their kids.
Also… ya this was a strange ep to me, I’m not really sure I understand the point of this convo. It felt like Liz was getting grilled a bit and any answers/perspectives she had were being labeled as wrong. To me it felt like Jamey was coming from a very good/bad binary place about ‘ideal’ relationships that was very traditional and rigid. And don’t get my wrong, I love Jamey. But so much of being single is also often out of your control like, you can’t control if a good person you vibe with comes into your life at that exact moment! All you can do is live for yourself and grow and be open and curious. And to Jamey’s perspective of exploring someone’s character, you said you explored your ex wife’s character and made good choices… what about them exploring your character? Did they feel like you had good character/family/morals at the time only to be cheated on? Of course you were going through a lot and have done much changing and accountability… but maybe those women (and many others) think they did explore someone’s character only to be disappointed/hurt. There’s only so much in your control…. The rest works out as it will.
Jamey was the MVP of this episode! 🏆 Liz tried to deflect from being transparent and vulnerable, by extrapolating her personal experience in the context of many general ones. Girl, was she squirmy 🪱 But she began considering taking more accountability with time, in-between her deflections. Can't ask Men to do what you're unwilling to do. What im referring to is Being VULNERABLE. Which is the buy in, and not the reward. I Love Brilliant Academic Liz 🥰 But where's the rest of her? The vulnerable, flawed, I'm as human as everybody else part? Jamey Kept It BLACK ✊🏼❤️🖤💚💪🏼 Liz is on her way to her Happiness 🙂 Once she balances the checkbooks between her Brilliant Mind 🧠, and Compassionate yet ever tender Heart 💖
I also found it interesting that you both missed the opportunity to consider the perspective of the child: Would the child prefer to he raised by one parent or two? Of course the child prefers a safe, stable, healthy home. What about a community of healthy, emotionally competent, mature adults?
Data is clear - children raised by single parents do much poorer in a wide variety of areas. A young boy needs a father to raise him to be a man and a young girl needs a mother to raise her to be a woman.
You folx lost me when Jamie said "Those women didn’t investigate those men"." He is not listening to Liz or understanding most women's experience. Of course he going to claim he has a great "people picker" he actually believes it. I appreciate Liz bringing up the many challenges for her(and many women) that Jamie just can't grasp.
He has a point. On another episode Liz told the story of the guy she dated who groped her and made her feel uncomfortable for multiple dates. Why keep dating him? Obviously there is an urge for some women to prioritize status over other important things. That's the reason Liz is single. She could easily find the perfect guy who works at the DMV and caters to her every need regarding equality in the relationship. Some men make the same mistakes, btw.
I will be part of your survey. I was married, divorced and a single mother. I would have preferred to have a responsible partner. Raising children is tough, let alone doing it by yourself.
The assumption when someone asks "Whyyyyyy the fuck are you still single???? You're sweet, accomplished, etc, etc, etc..." is that there's something terribly wrong with being single, or with wanting to be single, either for a time or forever. Stop that. A woman is not less of a person when she is single, by life circumstances and/or by choice. I'm even saying this from the perspective of someone who happens to authentically conform to a lot of hetero relational norms. I'm monogamous, I love love, I love being in a romantic relationship when it's healthy. And I'm not even single. But damn, why do single women have to be straight-up in this way? Just like child-free women. I'm so sorry, Jamey, but that's really how this came off - as a bit of an interrogation and like you're trying to "fix" her. Also, bringing up the ticking biological clock and the aging thing in general... oofffff dude. That was really insensitive.
As a generalization, we certainly need to consider that being single is not a bad thing and might be desired by an individual. However, Jamey was asking Liz, specifically, with whom he has a deep and longstanding relationship, a person who consistently expresses how much she wants to be in a healthy, supportive, loving, committed monogamous relationship. So when taken as a lovingly provocative question between friends based on a desire she has expressed many times, it does not seem inappropriate, does it?
Oh please, single men are also interrogated in this way. I don’t like it either but what’s worse is the victimhood I see - that only Makes matters worse
We still live in a society where if you are born a girl, you are expected and raised to behave in a certain way only because you are a girl, and the same goes for boys. We raise our children to be different according to their sexes and we expect them to fully understand each-other and communicate in a healthy way when they grow up. Don't judge other people's choices, don't try to change their minds, 'cause that is disrespectful. Don't try to fix your partner. It's their responsibility and if they just can't do it on their own, they are not right for you. But remember everyone needs help in order to grow. But let someone else help them grow. Love and accept your partner just the way they are, but don't stay in an unbalanced relationship, 'cause that's toxic. Good luck with finding a partner that is already balanced in exactly the right way for you! These are just some of the messages women receive constantly. Fit the pattern or die trying and we'll all ignore all the cognitive dissonances society fed all of us as children.
I see that highly intelligent women are aware of the grave consequences for choosing an unsuitable partner. Sadly, the system of patriarchy creates mostly just that. I've met so many women who have maintained their single status well into their 40-50s and are thriving. I've also met many women in their 40-50s, who are divorced and/or single mothers, and well... not quite the same vitality. Rock it Liz.
You will have to define ‘patriarchy’ for me. I can only speak on the single women I know - honestly the single women in their 30s and 40s are all trying to meet a man(or woman if that’s their thing).. I really have not run into too many middle aged single women that are “truly single” and thriving.. now what I mean by “truly single” is a woman that has truly abstained from all forms of casual dating and hookups . They truly live life on Their own and truly don’t need or want a man. I know one woman that’s in her 50s that has been like this for decades - she seems fine with it as she’s busy traveling .. I think what I’m saying is there are men and women that can live the single life and be fine but they are a tiny % of both sexes.. probably 1% or less
@@etf42 I see patriarchy as a nebulous term like any word, it all depends on the listener and their experience of it. For me as a man, it's being chastised for showing emotions, sharing feelings, not providing and protecting, having insecurities, being weak, etc. But for a woman, her experience of the term and its effects would be drastically different. For you, maybe the term means nothing. We're all just trying to find ways to communicate with one another the experience of conditioning that a lot of us share, but we're finding that this conditioning doesn't help us or really resonate with us at all.
Wow. Many of these ideas seem so 1970s or something. Being single is a viable option - and many many single people are super happy. Why would anyone have to defend his or her choice to be single. I was kind of shocked to hear some of these outdated ideas.
I think the answer is community, not spirituality. We have an epidemic of lonely and struggling people, and instead of looking outwards into the universe, we should look to each other for help.
I hate the question of "Why are you still single?" Just let people be. It's an interesting topic, but one that could be framed with less implications that you're doing something right/wrong. "still single" is a reductive view. I've been single, and I'm now in a long-term relationship. Meeting the right person is hard, relationships are hard, being in the right place to be in a relationship is hard. Being in a relationship with a great connection is a gift, but so is being single. Both are important. Both give you opportunities for different kinds of growth. Just keep being you Liz.
she gets asked that question because she's drop dead gorgeous, sexy, funny, educated, non smoker, no ugly tattoos. If she wasn't those tihngs, nobody would be asking. and that's the hard truth.
Sooooo soo true I wanted to explore more of what she kept putting out there. Like raising kids in a community and how deep rooted the patriarchy is in hetero relationships. I wanted to tease these concepts out so much more.
I came here from Instagram to get the full context of the convo on open relationships, so I'm mainly making this comment to help bookmark it for myself. I'm very excited that you opened up this topic, and look forward to hearing more of your perspective on it - maybe even with a poly guest speaker. 26:57
I love your podcast! I've written this before and am circling back and writing a similar comment again, because I see it applying to all sorts of topics on your podcast and this one as well. Are there structures for men to engage with that help them to identify their subconscious sexism and to replace it on an ongoing basis? Through an anti-racism course with an ongoing accountability structure, I am taking steps to uncover my own subconscious racism (I'm a white woman) and to continually work on it, replace it and take anti-racist action. I would never ask an Indigenous, Black or Asian person to be friends with a white person, but I can ask my white brothers and sisters to do our work together so that we can become better relatives to our Black, Indigenous and Asian brothers and sisters. So, I think this applies to sexism, it's men's responsibility to systematically uncover and replace their sexism. Then women can feel safer to engage in relationship in whatever way works. Also, I'm a Baha'i as well and part of my Faith talks about how marriage can be part of the building blocks of society. What I need to check myself on is the society that I am applying that to. Does that guidance make sense in terms of where North American society is at now? Is it ACTUALLY safe for women to seek out marriage in North American society? Are there circumstances where it is dangerous for women to be married? So, I no longer ask my women friends why they aren't in a heterosexual relationship, because I feel that question is based on my Baha'i standards which may not be appropriate at this time within this society. But, I do ask men to do their work and I do invite white people to do our work together. I also need to work more on my own heteronormative assumptions.
I just wanted to add that the type of dating process you are describing, Jamie, is the same dating process I learned about through the Baha’i community. It’s a process that helped me as I was dating, but it isn’t my husbands process. He isn’t a Baha’i and really isn’t interested in spiritual conversation and I respect that. He didn’t want to do a Baha’i inspired workbook together about investigating your potential partner, so I did the book myself. I took on the Baha’i Faith after considerable independent investigation and I chose it. I can’t apply that process to my husband because he’s not a Baha’i and he has a different process. If I applied the idea of a hetero, monogamous relationship on someone who is gay….I’m erasing them and invalidating their experience. If I apply it to someone who is happily open in their relationship….I’m erasing them and invalidating their experience.
The part of boys do better when they have relationships with their dads: I have heard this all my life and sure! We are all better off when we have HEALTHY love and relationships from our parents. However, I think it is because we exist within patriarchal standards that our sons feel as though their lives have fallen short or others view these boys as less than male bc they didn't have a dad to show them how to throw a foot ball etc etc etc. It's all because there is a feeling of LACK bc a piece/pieces of the patriarcal system wasn't upheld. I as a single mom of a son i want nothing more than to witness my son being authentic to himself and exposed to aaaalll different types of family structures so he can identify his own truth. I know the conflict will come up when he compares himself to these normalized conventional and patriarchal standards I just hope with aaaalll of my being that our community is strong enough to allow him his space to find his truth through it all and stand confidently in it.
But that’s how all societies are - even in a matriarchal society there will Be norms and values upheld within that culture. I fail to understand how to build or see a society that is completely accepting of every different way of life at all times - there will be norms and outliers
Ok, this made me mad. I feel like Jamey really dropped the ball in not acknowledging that Liz's explanation of the statistics is a real explanation for many single people and instead essentially blaming her of having "too high standards" for being single. Also, he says that co-parenting with someone who he doesn't live with does not change the dynamic and he thinks everyone would agree with him. Every single woman who had separated from her children's father who did not then abandon his children would disagree! When you live with a male co-parent who assumes the parenting job is mostly yours(most men), you NEVER get a break. When kids go away with their dad for weekends, as you mentioned, for many women this is the first real break they've gotten since giving birth.
You have got to take the time to investigate your potential partner in life. Do not let a sexual relationship be your jumping off point. You have got to get to know this person,know their family, their friends, how they are in stressful situations. You have to have the difficult conversations at the get go. To some it may seem like you are emotionally vomiting on this other person or on each other . You need to be open and honest and come to the conversation with the mindset of ,” if this person isn’t someone you see yourself with, move on. We don’t know how things will work out even doing all that but, at least you did the work. It may take many investigations . But you have to do the work!! Both of you. And if you aren’t both willing to do the work, move on. We have to stop being in relationships that we have invested time in. It’s not a stock that necessarily matures over time. If you’ve been with someone who you have to nag to marry you after being together for a decade, and they won’t , don’t say to yourself, “ but I’ve invested so much time in this person! I have to stick it out!” Would you stand in a bad smell just because you’ve been standing there 5 minutes prior and it didn’t stink? No , you’d leave. Relationships are work and don’t let anyone tell you different .❤
I've listened to this entire episode. The synopsis is like that skit "Fannie Doolie" on the ol PBS series _Zoom_ "Fannie Doolie [or in this case Liz Plank] loves biological men, but dislikes masculinity. Why do you think that is?" I just spoiled the episode for those who haven't seen or heard it yet.
I'm here from the Barbie podcast. And I cannot anymore. I really enjoyed this podcast (concept, ive listen to most episodes made) from the start but I cannot with Jamie anymore. He is too rooted in toxic masc to see the points in most of the topics discussed here. I struggle so much. His intersectionallity however, Is SOOO valuable, but he cannot see past the patriarchy and I honestly believe he does not think it exist. Maybe one day, but for someone who says things like "once is enough for me" when consuming content that is related to what youre going to discuss on a podcast to be able to analyze it tells me everything i need to know. I love this project, but dang. It's like talking to wall, or listening to someone talk to a wall.
Regarding Barak Obama being raised by a single mother--he had very present grandparents I believe, except for the years when they lived in Malaysia, and his mother was married to his stepfather. Haven't read his autobiographies so not sure of the impact of these other people in his formative years.
Liz was spot on and just because her answer reflected the experiences of so many hetero women doesn't make it less true or valid and certainly no less important to discuss. I often feel like Jamey asks questions he feels he already has an answer to. Liz had a different answer so instead of actually listening to her, he dismisses it and insistently tells her what he thinks the issue is. Also wondering if he would conclude that his second wife didn't 'investigate his character' and therefore chose the wrong person making it her fault? I just don't understand his persistence with the point he was trying to make. The whole episode felt like liz was being mansplained. I love and respect the idea of the hosts challenging one anothers thoughts and opinions but Jamey just seemed to have a clear agenda from the start.
Is it that the patriarchy only produces suitable men after they've been divorced a few times and committed deeply to the work of 12 Step programs? 🤷♀️
I see that a lot of humans know so little about being human, about human bodies and basic neurochemistry and psychological development. We don't teach this in homes or schools and really instead on societal traditions and accepted systems. Imagine a society that is structured around the fact that human brains aren't fully developed until 25-26 years old? Imagine a society that is developed around that fact that women's endocrine systems react more strongly in relationships. Imagine a society that actually supports women, and recognizes that the health of a society is determined by the health of its females of all ages. The knee jerk reaction would be to think that these are statements against men. They are not. It is a basic understanding of humans. All men come from women's bodies. There's potential for clarity when this is truly acknowledged, understood and honored. The physiology of a woman's body and mind is constructed to bear and nurture all humans.
Liz says she wants a partner that she deems are on her level and that usually means men that have superior wit and charisma, thus above average social intelligence. These type of men usually are a low percentage of men that have lots of options and usually exercise those options because they can. They really give the rest of the male population a bad reputation such as the bad boy stereotype. The majority of men who work hard in a job that is centered around routine labor thus don't develop the social intelligence that these women are looking for, thus get overlooked the majority of time. Most of these times these suitable men that could be great fathers end up in the friendzone.
Jamey, I don't really understand why when Liz said that patriarchy feels like the biggest issue in her romantic experiences, you didn't respectfully ask her to explain more deeply what she meant. To say 'put patriarchy aside, let's talk about you', feels really dismissive and disrespectful to me. Imagine Liz asks you a deep personal question and your honest answer to that is: 'racism feels like the biggest issue for me in this', and she would respond: 'put racism aside, I want to talk about you'. How would you feel? Would it feel dismissive to you? Would you feel any sense of: 'Hey, but I am Black, this IS part of my reality, this is relevant'? Also, if you want to inquire about someone's trauma, please create a safe space for that. The way you approached this felt really intrusive. It seems to me you need a third person in the conversations. Someone who can watch what's happening between the other two and can intervene and shift the dynamic if needed.
Jamey is weong about Liz/individual women not having to worry about patriarchy etc when dating/thinking about relationships, & it just indicates that he does not still fully deeply grasp what patriarchy does. There is no putting it aside. You navigate life with that in you, however it is in/part of you ..& you heal as best you can, but I strongly object to him or anyone telling a woman what he did at the end (& earlier in the episode) re you don't have to carry that, etc. Glad he wants the best for Liz, but that isn't it.
her long drawn out 4 minute answer to why she's single is what drives people nuts. Just no specific experience that she relates on. Other than Education or why so many other women are killing it. Just be simplistic and give an answer. She's so educated that she literally cannot answer the question why are you single?
Have you guys seen the animation My Affair with Marriage? It's an excellent portrayal of how the cultural and hormonal influences weigh heavily on women's bodies. There are some biological responses in the female body for which we have absolutely no control. There is no education on this. Yet, these are fundamental characteristics that shape relationships and societies. Men and women must actually know about their bodies. They much know these things about themselves before engaging.
i guess id answer with - why are you not single lol? sounds defensive but being single and being not single are two states of being ; not sure why one is better than the other?
"The biggest cock blocker is the patriarchy". No, the biggest "cock blocker" is blaming men for both men and women's problems, instead of taking personal responsibility for how men and women have always been equal partners in shaping the course of humanity. That is true empowerment. Reducing women to victims and men to perpetrators is disempowering to both men and women.
If the patriarchy didn’t exist, both men and women would feel more empowered. Pretending it doesn’t exist is part of the problem and it’s kind of bizarre that you don’t understand its role in why less and less women are choosing to have kids and be married. Not only that, but they are now statistically happier and live longer than their married/childbearing counterparts, which means that the majority of the latter have actually reported and admitted to being miserable. How sad is that?
@@taraz6786 that fact that he doesn't understand is part of the issue, he's gone straight to a defensive mindset rather than trying to understand the meaning of the comment and to see if it's relevant, although I guess you can't do that if you have an initial starting point that the patriarchy doesn't exist.
@@taraz6786 First of all, since feminism got popular in the 60's, women's happiness have actually gone down, not up, while men's happiness have actually gone up, since their traditional sexist gender role of being the sole breadwinner have in many ways liberated men, while women working turned out not to be the big patriarchal privilege that many women had imagined. You're also completely missing my point: I'm not saying we shouldn't "smash the patriarchy" and that both men and women wouldn't be happier without it. What I'm saying is that it is morally and factually wrong to blame men for "the patriarchy" when "the patriarchy" are just the natural and logical result of female hypergamy (women marrying up in the socio-economic hierarchy such that, over time, there are many more socio-economically successful men compared to women). This means that women's power to shape men's actions are not sufficiently recognized, instead feminism see women as powerless and as victims of this patriarchy that women themselves - very much with their power - created with men's assistance throughout history. This is what I mean by taking ownership of your own choices and actions, taking responsibility and accountability for the power and influence you exercise. Nothing is more empowering than that, especially if you compare it to the feminist view of women as helpless, innocent victims who can do no wrong. This is not an empowering view of women, it is infantilizing, patronizing and disrespectful. In short: patriarchy (saving women) and feminism (saving women) are not opposites but a continuous line of favoring female life and welfare at the expense of men. And what I'm saying is that we need a radical break from this saving-women paradigm, a paradigm which might seem like female empowerment at first glance, but is actually deeply disempowering for both sexes.
Liz thanks for being so vulnerable. I honestly struggle with the same idea of choosing the wrong partner. Growing I've first hand seen what life is like choosing the wrong partner, and I don't want to end up with a bad partner who I have a child with. This fear is probably why I am still single as well.
I can’t imagine being with someone and having a kid with him only to realize a decade later they they are the wrong person for you. That said I do think modern people’s expectations are too high - we seem to want someone that checks all boxes
This is typically such a loaded question when someone asks, and the answer is extremely personal and often inappropriate to discuss in mixed company.
I appreciate Jamey keeping it real and not pandering too much. He raised a lot of important points. Also appreciate Liz opening up. Stigmatizing conversations like this is part of the problem.
Before meeting my girlfriend of almost 2 years, I was also focusing on what Liz was describing as her recent approach to dating. When I went on a date, I would pay attention to myself and see if the person made me feel like my most expansive self, or conversely if I felt like there were sides of me that I wasn't showing. If I felt like I couldn't be or wasn't being my full self with the person and being appreciated for that, I knew it wasn't the right person for me. That was a huge shift in how I approached dating. Before that I was nearly solely attuned with how the other person felt about me and how I could impress/please them.
What he doesn't get is that most women are not choosing the wrong partners, patriarchy is in fact what makes many men bad partners, who would probably otherwise make good partners. He isn't getting her point and she's not getting through in this conversation. Men automatically blame women for choosing wrong or having trauma without ever questioning why so many woman avoid relationships. It's simply because traditional relationships are not for everyone and patriarchal men are men who project on women and take no accountability. Women don't want that, we want men to listen and understand that patriarchy has to go if we want to have healthy hetero relationships now. They just don't listen & assume they know what women want and what's right for us. Women have to stay single because there simply are not enough good men out there.
Thank you for sharing your perspective 😊
“Not enough good men out there” 💀 Cope. Blaming 50% of the population for why your love life isn’t the way you want it is something a misogynistic incel would say lmao. There are plenty of decent men with good moral values out there. Its just so much easier to pretend they’re all awful as a way to justify you not taking the risk in dating because you’re trying to avoid being heartbroken. Everybody is afraid of getting hurt and chances are, the pursuit of your life partner will probably involve some pain along the way, but that’s a risk many of us are willing to take because the potential reward is so great.
I have always been ENM (ethically non-monogamous). It's just how I love. I experienced a great deal of loss early in life, and so I came to love without attachment. And I tend to have feelings for people who are of a similar disposition. I've had traditional relationships before, and they were meaningful, but it's not best for me. Just like any relationship, communication. Communication. Communication. Candor and awkwardness and discomfort save resentment down the road. Communication.
Thank you for sharing
Why are all these silly terms coming out? You aren't monogamous and you are honest about it. These terms are so tacky. Whenever anyone uses them I know to stay away. Like the weirdos still wearing masks. I know who to avoid.
@@alyssawoodman I think they're ridiculous, personally. It's just a habit of being on dating apps and feeling tired of people not understanding that I have multiple partners who know about each other. The clumsy, limiting term bypasses the need for that conversation.
Thank you Liz for being so open and vulnerable and Jamey for all the wisdom ❤
You were fantastic Jamey. Thanks for being so real and vulnerable yourself as you tried to get Liz out of her comfort zone.
I’ve been thinking about how I want to feel in a relationship too! Also how sexism/patriarchy affects our dating experiences. I worry about picking the wrong partner and only want a healthy relationship where growth is a huge part of it. I’m not willing to settle just to be in a relationship. I think Liz was put in the spot. It’s a horrible question when we get that the questions, “Why are you still single?” It makes it sound often like a judgement. What’s wrong with you?
Please define patriarchy for me .. the way it’s been described to me in the past makes it seem like there is indeed a patriarchy but in the Middle East and not America.
I’m a single mom of 2. One is 2.5 and the other is 8 months. Jamie and Liz are both 100% correct about raising a child alone vs partnered. It’s incredibly hard to do it alone, but I also know choosing a bad partner makes it 10x harder. I’m there.
My thought is that a best friend is a great idea. You have trust and longevity of relationship with them already. You’ve seen them through seasons of life. The child can have both parents around if you have two houses or apartments next to each other or even a communal home.
Do not rely on your community to be there. They will have things that come up and at the end of the day it’s all on you, so make sure you have a committed and fair partnership. Romance is not necessary for family and love.
Hmm i love that this podcast brings together very different perspectives. At the same time, it definitely feels like Jamey was pushing his view on Liz and not actually listening to what she was saying because she didn't put it the way he wanted to hear.
Oh, my. This is such a great topic to discuss, however I think it took many turns around it and it wasn’t really approached directly. I love Liz, I think she still feels nervous sometimes with certain topics and that shows she’s continuously working in herself and searching and learning and growing and it’s awesome to listen to her. I appreciate Jamey, I love his deep voice that comes along with deep thoughts however I feel he still has a long road deconstructing himself as he can still be really stubborn and a bit arrogant. I think Justin balances everything, leading with his accurate, humble, honest and very often sweet interventions, I miss him in the episodes he’s not in.
Thank you for sharing your perspective
Interesting podcast. For me it revealed just how much of a blessing it is to have this version of Jamie now after he has gone through so much growth. I appreciate his leadership and vulnerability.
That said, I see his question and his answers represent an enormous blind spot. Liz nails his question in the beginning with the system of patriarchy being a main deterrent to lasting heterosexual partnerships. Too bad they didn't explore that.
Instead we explore the empty trail of women (and men) don't learn enough about their partners.
It seems quite telling that Jamie's first wife waited 30 years before remarrying. And though Jamie has indeed grown and matured, since then, the new husband is protective of his wife and is suspicious and defensive towards Jamie at first. Now why would that be?
Jamie got 3 shots at marriage. And is now mature and committed enough to make this one last. Good for him and where he's at now. But somehow this also has an echo for me, of applauding fathers who actually take care of their kids.
Also… ya this was a strange ep to me, I’m not really sure I understand the point of this convo. It felt like Liz was getting grilled a bit and any answers/perspectives she had were being labeled as wrong. To me it felt like Jamey was coming from a very good/bad binary place about ‘ideal’ relationships that was very traditional and rigid. And don’t get my wrong, I love Jamey. But so much of being single is also often out of your control like, you can’t control if a good person you vibe with comes into your life at that exact moment! All you can do is live for yourself and grow and be open and curious. And to Jamey’s perspective of exploring someone’s character, you said you explored your ex wife’s character and made good choices… what about them exploring your character? Did they feel like you had good character/family/morals at the time only to be cheated on? Of course you were going through a lot and have done much changing and accountability… but maybe those women (and many others) think they did explore someone’s character only to be disappointed/hurt. There’s only so much in your control…. The rest works out as it will.
Jamey was the MVP of this episode! 🏆 Liz tried to deflect from being transparent and vulnerable, by extrapolating her personal experience in the context of many general ones. Girl, was she squirmy 🪱 But she began considering taking more accountability with time, in-between her deflections. Can't ask Men to do what you're unwilling to do. What im referring to is Being VULNERABLE. Which is the buy in, and not the reward. I Love Brilliant Academic Liz 🥰 But where's the rest of her? The vulnerable, flawed, I'm as human as everybody else part? Jamey Kept It BLACK ✊🏼❤️🖤💚💪🏼 Liz is on her way to her Happiness 🙂 Once she balances the checkbooks between her Brilliant Mind 🧠, and Compassionate yet ever tender Heart 💖
“Where’s the rest of her”, yep, I totally agree, couldn’t have said it better.
Liz, your DM’s must be blowing up right now. I applaud your authenticity.
I also found it interesting that you both missed the opportunity to consider the perspective of the child: Would the child prefer to he raised by one parent or two? Of course the child prefers a safe, stable, healthy home. What about a community of healthy, emotionally competent, mature adults?
Data is clear - children raised by single parents do much poorer in a wide variety of areas. A young boy needs a father to raise him to be a man and a young girl needs a mother to raise her to be a woman.
You folx lost me when Jamie said "Those women didn’t investigate those men"." He is not listening to Liz or understanding most women's experience. Of course he going to claim he has a great "people picker" he actually believes it. I appreciate Liz bringing up the many challenges for her(and many women) that Jamie just can't grasp.
He has a point. On another episode Liz told the story of the guy she dated who groped her and made her feel uncomfortable for multiple dates. Why keep dating him? Obviously there is an urge for some women to prioritize status over other important things. That's the reason Liz is single. She could easily find the perfect guy who works at the DMV and caters to her every need regarding equality in the relationship. Some men make the same mistakes, btw.
I will be part of your survey. I was married, divorced and a single mother. I would have preferred to have a responsible partner.
Raising children is tough, let alone doing it by yourself.
I never clicked so fast! I’m still single so I think listening to this episode will be interesting
The assumption when someone asks "Whyyyyyy the fuck are you still single???? You're sweet, accomplished, etc, etc, etc..." is that there's something terribly wrong with being single, or with wanting to be single, either for a time or forever. Stop that. A woman is not less of a person when she is single, by life circumstances and/or by choice.
I'm even saying this from the perspective of someone who happens to authentically conform to a lot of hetero relational norms. I'm monogamous, I love love, I love being in a romantic relationship when it's healthy. And I'm not even single. But damn, why do single women have to be straight-up in this way? Just like child-free women. I'm so sorry, Jamey, but that's really how this came off - as a bit of an interrogation and like you're trying to "fix" her. Also, bringing up the ticking biological clock and the aging thing in general... oofffff dude. That was really insensitive.
As a generalization, we certainly need to consider that being single is not a bad thing and might be desired by an individual. However, Jamey was asking Liz, specifically, with whom he has a deep and longstanding relationship, a person who consistently expresses how much she wants to be in a healthy, supportive, loving, committed monogamous relationship. So when taken as a lovingly provocative question between friends based on a desire she has expressed many times, it does not seem inappropriate, does it?
Oh please, single men are also interrogated in this way. I don’t like it either but what’s worse is the victimhood I see - that only
Makes matters worse
I TOTALLY AGREE. I was really out off by Jamey on this episode. Liz handled it incredibly well.
Ditto his tone was bordering on shaming Liz. Lol and so arrogant… I investigated my wife’s character so I know….
We still live in a society where if you are born a girl, you are expected and raised to behave in a certain way only because you are a girl, and the same goes for boys. We raise our children to be different according to their sexes and we expect them to fully understand each-other and communicate in a healthy way when they grow up. Don't judge other people's choices, don't try to change their minds, 'cause that is disrespectful. Don't try to fix your partner. It's their responsibility and if they just can't do it on their own, they are not right for you. But remember everyone needs help in order to grow. But let someone else help them grow. Love and accept your partner just the way they are, but don't stay in an unbalanced relationship, 'cause that's toxic. Good luck with finding a partner that is already balanced in exactly the right way for you! These are just some of the messages women receive constantly. Fit the pattern or die trying and we'll all ignore all the cognitive dissonances society fed all of us as children.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I see that highly intelligent women are aware of the grave consequences for choosing an unsuitable partner. Sadly, the system of patriarchy creates mostly just that.
I've met so many women who have maintained their single status well into their 40-50s and are thriving.
I've also met many women in their 40-50s, who are divorced and/or single mothers, and well... not quite the same vitality.
Rock it Liz.
we dont live in a patriarchy though...
You will have to define ‘patriarchy’ for me.
I can only speak on the single women I know - honestly the single women in their 30s and 40s are all trying to meet a man(or woman if that’s their thing).. I really have not run into too many middle aged single women that are “truly single” and thriving.. now what I mean by “truly single” is a woman that has truly abstained from all forms of casual dating and hookups . They truly live life on
Their own and truly don’t need or want a man. I know one woman that’s in her 50s that has been like this for decades - she seems fine with it as she’s busy traveling ..
I think what I’m saying is there are men and women that can live the single life and be fine but they are a tiny % of both sexes.. probably 1% or less
@@etf42Yeah we do. You can be blind to it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
@@alyssawoodman ok humor me.
a) what is your definition of patriarchy
b) what specifically makes any modern western country a patriarchy?
@@etf42 I see patriarchy as a nebulous term like any word, it all depends on the listener and their experience of it. For me as a man, it's being chastised for showing emotions, sharing feelings, not providing and protecting, having insecurities, being weak, etc. But for a woman, her experience of the term and its effects would be drastically different. For you, maybe the term means nothing. We're all just trying to find ways to communicate with one another the experience of conditioning that a lot of us share, but we're finding that this conditioning doesn't help us or really resonate with us at all.
Wow. Many of these ideas seem so 1970s or something. Being single is a viable option - and many many single people are super happy. Why would anyone have to defend his or her choice to be single. I was kind of shocked to hear some of these outdated ideas.
Thank you for sharing your perspective
I think the answer is community, not spirituality. We have an epidemic of lonely and struggling people, and instead of looking outwards into the universe, we should look to each other for help.
I hate the question of "Why are you still single?" Just let people be. It's an interesting topic, but one that could be framed with less implications that you're doing something right/wrong. "still single" is a reductive view. I've been single, and I'm now in a long-term relationship. Meeting the right person is hard, relationships are hard, being in the right place to be in a relationship is hard. Being in a relationship with a great connection is a gift, but so is being single. Both are important. Both give you opportunities for different kinds of growth. Just keep being you Liz.
she gets asked that question because she's drop dead gorgeous, sexy, funny, educated, non smoker, no ugly tattoos. If she wasn't those tihngs, nobody would be asking. and that's the hard truth.
I love the honesty in this conversation.❤
Didn’t enjoy watching Liz getting put on the hot seat and wanted to point out that Jamey’s questions were asked through the lens of patriarchy.
SO TRUE, unfortunately.
Thank you. for sharing your perspective
Sooooo soo true I wanted to explore more of what she kept putting out there. Like raising kids in a community and how deep rooted the patriarchy is in hetero relationships. I wanted to tease these concepts out so much more.
Great conversation- thought provoking.
I came here from Instagram to get the full context of the convo on open relationships, so I'm mainly making this comment to help bookmark it for myself. I'm very excited that you opened up this topic, and look forward to hearing more of your perspective on it - maybe even with a poly guest speaker. 26:57
I love your podcast! I've written this before and am circling back and writing a similar comment again, because I see it applying to all sorts of topics on your podcast and this one as well. Are there structures for men to engage with that help them to identify their subconscious sexism and to replace it on an ongoing basis? Through an anti-racism course with an ongoing accountability structure, I am taking steps to uncover my own subconscious racism (I'm a white woman) and to continually work on it, replace it and take anti-racist action. I would never ask an Indigenous, Black or Asian person to be friends with a white person, but I can ask my white brothers and sisters to do our work together so that we can become better relatives to our Black, Indigenous and Asian brothers and sisters. So, I think this applies to sexism, it's men's responsibility to systematically uncover and replace their sexism. Then women can feel safer to engage in relationship in whatever way works.
Also, I'm a Baha'i as well and part of my Faith talks about how marriage can be part of the building blocks of society. What I need to check myself on is the society that I am applying that to. Does that guidance make sense in terms of where North American society is at now? Is it ACTUALLY safe for women to seek out marriage in North American society? Are there circumstances where it is dangerous for women to be married? So, I no longer ask my women friends why they aren't in a heterosexual relationship, because I feel that question is based on my Baha'i standards which may not be appropriate at this time within this society. But, I do ask men to do their work and I do invite white people to do our work together. I also need to work more on my own heteronormative assumptions.
I just wanted to add that the type of dating process you are describing, Jamie, is the same dating process I learned about through the Baha’i community. It’s a process that helped me as I was dating, but it isn’t my husbands process. He isn’t a Baha’i and really isn’t interested in spiritual conversation and I respect that. He didn’t want to do a Baha’i inspired workbook together about investigating your potential partner, so I did the book myself. I took on the Baha’i Faith after considerable independent investigation and I chose it. I can’t apply that process to my husband because he’s not a Baha’i and he has a different process. If I applied the idea of a hetero, monogamous relationship on someone who is gay….I’m erasing them and invalidating their experience. If I apply it to someone who is happily open in their relationship….I’m erasing them and invalidating their experience.
The part of boys do better when they have relationships with their dads:
I have heard this all my life and sure! We are all better off when we have HEALTHY love and relationships from our parents. However, I think it is because we exist within patriarchal standards that our sons feel as though their lives have fallen short or others view these boys as less than male bc they didn't have a dad to show them how to throw a foot ball etc etc etc. It's all because there is a feeling of LACK bc a piece/pieces of the patriarcal system wasn't upheld. I as a single mom of a son i want nothing more than to witness my son being authentic to himself and exposed to aaaalll different types of family structures so he can identify his own truth. I know the conflict will come up when he compares himself to these normalized conventional and patriarchal standards I just hope with aaaalll of my being that our community is strong enough to allow him his space to find his truth through it all and stand confidently in it.
But that’s how all societies are - even in a matriarchal society there will
Be norms and values upheld within that culture. I fail to understand how to build or see a society that is completely accepting of every different way of life at all times - there will be norms and outliers
Ok, this made me mad. I feel like Jamey really dropped the ball in not acknowledging that Liz's explanation of the statistics is a real explanation for many single people and instead essentially blaming her of having "too high standards" for being single. Also, he says that co-parenting with someone who he doesn't live with does not change the dynamic and he thinks everyone would agree with him. Every single woman who had separated from her children's father who did not then abandon his children would disagree! When you live with a male co-parent who assumes the parenting job is mostly yours(most men), you NEVER get a break. When kids go away with their dad for weekends, as you mentioned, for many women this is the first real break they've gotten since giving birth.
You have got to take the time to investigate your potential partner in life. Do not let a sexual relationship be your jumping off point. You have got to get to know this person,know their family, their friends, how they are in stressful situations. You have to have the difficult conversations at the get go. To some it may seem like you are emotionally vomiting on this other person or on each other . You need to be open and honest and come to the conversation with the mindset of ,” if this person isn’t someone you see yourself with, move on. We don’t know how things will work out even doing all that but, at least you did the work. It may take many investigations . But you have to do the work!! Both of you. And if you aren’t both willing to do the work, move on. We have to stop being in relationships that we have invested time in. It’s not a stock that necessarily matures over time. If you’ve been with someone who you have to nag to marry you after being together for a decade, and they won’t , don’t say to yourself, “ but I’ve invested so much time in this person! I have to stick it out!”
Would you stand in a bad smell just because you’ve been standing there 5 minutes prior and it didn’t stink? No , you’d leave.
Relationships are work and don’t let anyone tell you different .❤
Thank you so much for your perspective! ❤️
I've listened to this entire episode. The synopsis is like that skit "Fannie Doolie" on the ol PBS series _Zoom_ "Fannie Doolie [or in this case Liz Plank] loves biological men, but dislikes masculinity. Why do you think that is?"
I just spoiled the episode for those who haven't seen or heard it yet.
U r always refreshing to listen to ❤❤❤
I'm so glad! 😊
I'm here from the Barbie podcast. And I cannot anymore. I really enjoyed this podcast (concept, ive listen to most episodes made) from the start but I cannot with Jamie anymore. He is too rooted in toxic masc to see the points in most of the topics discussed here. I struggle so much. His intersectionallity however, Is SOOO valuable, but he cannot see past the patriarchy and I honestly believe he does not think it exist.
Maybe one day, but for someone who says things like "once is enough for me" when consuming content that is related to what youre going to discuss on a podcast to be able to analyze it tells me everything i need to know.
I love this project, but dang. It's like talking to wall, or listening to someone talk to a wall.
Invite Lovers and Friends to talk about open relationships! it'd be a great conversation to listen to between you all!
Yessss!!!!!
Yes
Love how Liz handled this. My situationships taught me sooooo much and I still think about my healing with those men in comparison to my marriage.
Thank you! Glad you're here with us.
Regarding Barak Obama being raised by a single mother--he had very present grandparents I believe, except for the years when they lived in Malaysia, and his mother was married to his stepfather. Haven't read his autobiographies so not sure of the impact of these other people in his formative years.
Liz was spot on and just because her answer reflected the experiences of so many hetero women doesn't make it less true or valid and certainly no less important to discuss. I often feel like Jamey asks questions he feels he already has an answer to. Liz had a different answer so instead of actually listening to her, he dismisses it and insistently tells her what he thinks the issue is. Also wondering if he would conclude that his second wife didn't 'investigate his character' and therefore chose the wrong person making it her fault? I just don't understand his persistence with the point he was trying to make. The whole episode felt like liz was being mansplained. I love and respect the idea of the hosts challenging one anothers thoughts and opinions but Jamey just seemed to have a clear agenda from the start.
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Is it that the patriarchy only produces suitable men after they've been divorced a few times and committed deeply to the work of 12 Step programs? 🤷♀️
Accountability is the point....
I see that a lot of humans know so little about being human, about human bodies and basic neurochemistry and psychological development. We don't teach this in homes or schools and really instead on societal traditions and accepted systems.
Imagine a society that is structured around the fact that human brains aren't fully developed until 25-26 years old?
Imagine a society that is developed around that fact that women's endocrine systems react more strongly in relationships.
Imagine a society that actually supports women, and recognizes that the health of a society is determined by the health of its females of all ages.
The knee jerk reaction would be to think that these are statements against men. They are not. It is a basic understanding of humans. All men come from women's bodies. There's potential for clarity when this is truly acknowledged, understood and honored. The physiology of a woman's body and mind is constructed to bear and nurture all humans.
Hi Liz, I think we can work. I’ll take you to Disney. I love your look.
Liz says she wants a partner that she deems are on her level and that usually means men that have superior wit and charisma, thus above average social intelligence. These type of men usually are a low percentage of men that have lots of options and usually exercise those options because they can. They really give the rest of the male population a bad reputation such as the bad boy stereotype. The majority of men who work hard in a job that is centered around routine labor thus don't develop the social intelligence that these women are looking for, thus get overlooked the majority of time. Most of these times these suitable men that could be great fathers end up in the friendzone.
Jamey, I don't really understand why when Liz said that patriarchy feels like the biggest issue in her romantic experiences, you didn't respectfully ask her to explain more deeply what she meant.
To say 'put patriarchy aside, let's talk about you', feels really dismissive and disrespectful to me.
Imagine Liz asks you a deep personal question and your honest answer to that is: 'racism feels like the biggest issue for me in this', and she would respond: 'put racism aside, I want to talk about you'.
How would you feel?
Would it feel dismissive to you? Would you feel any sense of: 'Hey, but I am Black, this IS part of my reality, this is relevant'?
Also, if you want to inquire about someone's trauma, please create a safe space for that. The way you approached this felt really intrusive.
It seems to me you need a third person in the conversations. Someone who can watch what's happening between the other two and can intervene and shift the dynamic if needed.
Thank you for sharing
Jamey is weong about Liz/individual women not having to worry about patriarchy etc when dating/thinking about relationships, & it just indicates that he does not still fully deeply grasp what patriarchy does. There is no putting it aside. You navigate life with that in you, however it is in/part of you ..& you heal as best you can, but I strongly object to him or anyone telling a woman what he did at the end (& earlier in the episode) re you don't have to carry that, etc. Glad he wants the best for Liz, but that isn't it.
Patriarchy? Really? Who is this “patriarchy” you speak of?
if the 405 is the easiest way to get from one spot to another without distraction as opposed to surface streets, what does that make the 110? xD
All this talk about patriarchy, I guarantee you Liz’s standards for the men she dates would still align with what women traditionally want from men.
I feel that Liz and me are the same person lol
her long drawn out 4 minute answer to why she's single is what drives people nuts. Just no specific experience that she relates on. Other than Education or why so many other women are killing it. Just be simplistic and give an answer. She's so educated that she literally cannot answer the question why are you single?
Have you guys seen the animation My Affair with Marriage? It's an excellent portrayal of how the cultural and hormonal influences weigh heavily on women's bodies. There are some biological responses in the female body for which we have absolutely no control. There is no education on this. Yet, these are fundamental characteristics that shape relationships and societies. Men and women must actually know about their bodies. They much know these things about themselves before engaging.
Do you mean When Woman hit 30
again we see that feminism is not about choices, but about ideals. Traditional relationships are demonized
traditional meaning unequal I guess? I think you misunderstood, relatationships are becoming more on eye level, finally.
I agree... just because we're being critical of traditional relationships...doesn't mean it's being demonized...
Stopped watching at the word "patriarchy" 🤮
i guess id answer with - why are you not single lol? sounds defensive but being single and being not single are two states of being ; not sure why one is better than the other?
Thank you for sharing this perspective
No one here has commented they are in a open relationship
"The biggest cock blocker is the patriarchy". No, the biggest "cock blocker" is blaming men for both men and women's problems, instead of taking personal responsibility for how men and women have always been equal partners in shaping the course of humanity. That is true empowerment. Reducing women to victims and men to perpetrators is disempowering to both men and women.
If the patriarchy didn’t exist, both men and women would feel more empowered. Pretending it doesn’t exist is part of the problem and it’s kind of bizarre that you don’t understand its role in why less and less women are choosing to have kids and be married. Not only that, but they are now statistically happier and live longer than their married/childbearing counterparts, which means that the majority of the latter have actually reported and admitted to being miserable. How sad is that?
@@taraz6786 that fact that he doesn't understand is part of the issue, he's gone straight to a defensive mindset rather than trying to understand the meaning of the comment and to see if it's relevant, although I guess you can't do that if you have an initial starting point that the patriarchy doesn't exist.
precisely
patriarchy created the world you live in@@taraz6786
@@taraz6786 First of all, since feminism got popular in the 60's, women's happiness have actually gone down, not up, while men's happiness have actually gone up, since their traditional sexist gender role of being the sole breadwinner have in many ways liberated men, while women working turned out not to be the big patriarchal privilege that many women had imagined.
You're also completely missing my point: I'm not saying we shouldn't "smash the patriarchy" and that both men and women wouldn't be happier without it. What I'm saying is that it is morally and factually wrong to blame men for "the patriarchy" when "the patriarchy" are just the natural and logical result of female hypergamy (women marrying up in the socio-economic hierarchy such that, over time, there are many more socio-economically successful men compared to women). This means that women's power to shape men's actions are not sufficiently recognized, instead feminism see women as powerless and as victims of this patriarchy that women themselves - very much with their power - created with men's assistance throughout history. This is what I mean by taking ownership of your own choices and actions, taking responsibility and accountability for the power and influence you exercise. Nothing is more empowering than that, especially if you compare it to the feminist view of women as helpless, innocent victims who can do no wrong. This is not an empowering view of women, it is infantilizing, patronizing and disrespectful.
In short: patriarchy (saving women) and feminism (saving women) are not opposites but a continuous line of favoring female life and welfare at the expense of men. And what I'm saying is that we need a radical break from this saving-women paradigm, a paradigm which might seem like female empowerment at first glance, but is actually deeply disempowering for both sexes.
Basically she likes getting Tyroned, and using Chads
The matriarchy is real