Shallan killing her mom? Mom tried to kill her first. Killing her dad? Her dad was abusive. Killing her spren, her best friend, that she actually likes and likes her back? That’s rough
@@ebnovels I’m in two minds about this, I kind of feel like we should have seen some kind of interaction between Shallan and Testament. But as it stands the big reveal really has no impact for me.
@@ebnovels I think Shallan killing her parents should have a bigger impact on her. But killing her spren could have more ramifications on the rest of the world and on how the other radiants view Shallan.
@@helplessblobfish3935 imagine chapters of backstory about Little Shallan and Pattern... but all along it was Testament, not Pattern. I think the reveal of Shallan killing her first spren would have more shock factor.
I mean the fact that Shallan acts irrationally and fears that Adolin will hate her, might not make sense from the readers perspective, but I think that this was the point. Shallan has some real issues and this is just one manifestation of it
See, this the reason why I can't connect with her. You have Venli on hand admitting to bringing about doomsday and then you have Shallan... Like...idk man, her issues with revealing herself feel a bit blown out of proportion in that respect. She's an interesting character and I would find it very enjoyable to write and essay about her from an analytical standpoint. But emotionally I just can't connect.
Shallan has PTSD as well, or possibly complex PTSD, due to her childhood trauma. As someone who suffers from both, it's a very common thing to blame yourself for what happened, which turns into a huge shameful secret, which you then assume everyone would hate you for if they knew about it. What happened to you, as a survivor of childhood trauma, becomes like your "fatal flaw" even though it wasn't your fault. It is a survival instinct to protect that secret or event(s).
As someone who's been diagnosed with BPD and bipolar depression I really gravitate towards Kal's and Shallan's characters but holy moly that scene with Wit legit made me freaking bawl. Especially those last 5 words were something I really needed to hear after this mess of a year.
Isn't it interesting how Lirin and Dalinar are mirrors in their chosen professions (soldier vs. doctor) but have the same methods of projecting their standards, values and reasoning (they make others feel inadequate in their presence). Theres even scenes describing how commanding and authoritative Lirin can be, and as you've pointed out previously, Dalinar can come across as holier than thou. They are, in effect, the same types of fathers; just separated by a social class gulf
As an older father of teens and young adults, I frequently sympathize with Lirin and Dalinar. Their well-intentioned wisdom is proffered to help their children, but it only ends up driving an emotional wedge between them. To me, this is all too sad, and sadly all too relatable.
I am so ready for Szeth's backstory!! I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've been waiting since book 1... ever since that prologue in WoK I was so interested to find out more about him.
Has Sanderson said one of the five books will be Szeth’s backstory? Everyone keeps acting like it’s definitely going to happen. Do we have any confirmation of this? I would absolutely love to get his backstory.
@@shananika oh yh it's for sure gonna be book 5 no doubt. Why all of a sudden are we now getting subtle information on Szeths past in RoW, obviously like Shallan and Dalinar we get little drops of info in previous books to set up their own book. And if you read the back of The Way of Kings there's a paragraph stating a prophecy (which from Edgedancer and Dawnshard I'm guessing is spoken by the Lifeless as they repeated some variation of this prophecy) It basically states that there are four Individuals they watch who will be important for the coming desolation, the surgeon (Kaladin), the scholar (Shallan), the Prince (Dalinar) and the Assassin who is obviously Szeth. Also in terms of major players there really is no other character who needs a backstory, I mean Navani Jasnah Renarin and Adolin basically play second fiddle to Dalinars backstory and outside of the Kholins there aren't really any other "Major" players.
@@vishanthfishy We so need Szeth's backstory and Shinovar just absolutely sounds fantastic. It also seems like the most earth-like, and that'll be fascinating in itself to have something familiar in an otherwise completely alien landscape. And the Shin people have so far sounded amazing and mysterious. We totally need more of Szeth and his land and people!
The reveal wasn't that Kalak was the judge. The reveal was that Kalak was Restares, the leader of Sons of Honor, a group trying to bring back the voidbringers so that Heralds would come back to save them too. Imo, the fact that a herald had himself formed that group was...(mind blown)
This book really drives home that ALL the Heralds are crazy in their own way. Each one is suffering from their own particular brand of madness, or are letting a singular concept consume their every waking moment.
When your ashamed of something and you push it down, represe it, it grows insides and becomes a beast all of its owm and eventually won't reflect reality. Shallan did present how twisted things can get when children repress things and go up without dealing with it.
For me Oathbringer reveal had some impact, but Shallan's one on RoW had much less, i mean, she killed her parents... Also I'm starting to like Shallan and Adolin together bc i don't think Kal would be able to help her as much as Adolin does.
I don’t know that I ever wanted her with Kaladin; I think I wanted her alone, but maybe her relationship with Adolin could continue to develop rather than have them get married so quickly 😆
The other person that drove off Axendwith.... he's the steward in the prologue, he dies in that Lift Interlude and he's the one that actually had the Red Chicken!!
"Teft was a better father figure than Lirin" YESSSSSS and Teft's chapter may be my favorite chapter so far because it is a spot of hope and happiness in the middle of all this neverending hopelessness. Shallan prepared the needle, Veil hid the fact from Shallan even in the moment, and Radiant did the deed so that Shallan would not. It didn't exactly contradict itself. Just a messy confusion because of how Shallan works. I so wanted Venly to help Relain and the Radiants and the whole lot of them to escape the tower and go find the Listeners together. I feel her insistence on going to them is going to end very badly.
Response 5: I can't say enough about how much I love the Navani and Raboniel research/dealing with imposter syndrome/stockholm syndrome arc. At the beginning I was like, "Navani, if you work with this woman you are going to inadvertently give them a weapon that will further stack the odds against humanity." Then I read all the beautiful research chapters where Sanderson perfectly captures the sense of the numinous that arises with discovery, basking in that, all the while also muttering to myself about how Navani was doing EXACTLY what I knew she was going to do 😩. While I certainly felt the fatigue in Raboniel's character with this never-ending conflict, I honestly did NOT expect her to kill her daughter with the anti-voidlight. Her grief made, plus the fact that she was having a copy of Rhythm of War made for Navani, to let her keep that knowledge that could permanently kill the Fused and thus make a level killing field to finish the war, cemented her as one of my favourite characters yet in all of Sanderson's works. She helped Navani, this brilliant scientist of her day, see through her imposter syndrome (which I totally blame, and hate, Gavilar for) and was, from her introduction to this point, one of the most foreboding "villain" characters to me that I have ever read. Yet I can't help but love her character. The nauseating implications for the Cosmere of the anti-voidlight and anti-stormlight, absolute destruction of the essence of a Shard, was such a cliff to drop us off of to end part 4. Like what the bloody hell does this mean for the other Shards????! I hope I wasn't the only one who had to put the book down for a bit and contemplate that for a good long while before I could pick it up again.
Response 4: The dynamic between Wit and Design brings me so much joy. I was laughing so hard I cried reading that part despite how depressing Kaladin's situation was. Yes, the crying at the, "you will be warm again." line was real. And yes, Pattern was so damn good this book. Some of the best comic relief ever. And no, not rooting for Herald murder >.>
I wish Shallan's spren reveal had a bigger effect on the trial. As it was, it was pretty underwhelming I agree. Also, Raboniel and Navani were so amazing!
I don’t agree with you on Eshonai being the more interesting sister. I actually think that if Eshonai had lived we would have grown bored with her. She was so sure of herself and at worse would have had to overcome confidence issues after being wrong and losing people. She was too much a goody two shoes but Venli having to admit that she was selfish and a coward is far more interesting as you’re basically giving her a redemption arc and she is only at the start of it now. I like this way better. I’m glad Sanderson was forced to get rid of Eshonai. To me it’s a happy accident.
I think I wanted Venli to do a little more in this book, instead of thinking about doing things and then think she was worthless 😅 but I get what you mean! And I think I was just a little impatient with her; I’m hoping I’ll feel more connected on reread!
@@ebnovels I hope you will. The flashbacks in this book pale in comparison with the main narrative and I think, at least for me it was this way, that my excitement for what would be the continuation of the main storyline was so much that when reading flashbacks I wanted to get through them and that attitude I had towards them was what made me not enjoy them as much.
SPOILERS FOR THE SECOND SPECIALIST IN KHOLINAR General opinion is that Gereh. The finnicky steward who told Navani about the death of Gavilar, and also had a handful of rings was another Feruchemist who tuned Gavilar against Axindweth. He was the guy with the red aviar/chicken who Mraize killed.
I think the main confusion about shallan is like how severe depression is usually portrayed and most people don't get it. People are like this does not feel real this does not feel sad but that's how it also is in real life. In this case people seem lilke they forgot all of Shallan's personalities are herself, and this was the main point of Formless. I also agree on the part that it felt too quick and wrapped up really fast and conveniantly but saying Formless was allways shallan is missing the point that all of her personalities are façades, she pretends like they are real to the point they are almost real, her head is fractured. And her feelings are supposed to be irrational, she made herself believe that she commited such a sin even she can not confront it. I agree with almost every criticism about shallan and adolins story in many reviews (except maya's reveal being conveniant i felt like that was the whole reason this arc existed and it was foreshadowed to a point it shouldnt have been a surprise but everyone has a different experience so I respect what everyone thinks) but people should think more about how mental illnesses work and how they are not the same for all cases.
This exactly. I find it weird that people get Navani being irrational with her imposter syndrome but anxiety and misplaced guilt is the same vein of irrationality for cases like Shallan. A truly good person will always blame themselves and weigh their sins harsher compared to when they're judging people. Kaladin does this all the time too. Shallan killed the most important person to her back when she was a kid and all the other reasons that add to her guilt just keep on piling up. Imagine if you killed your best friend accidentally and they apparently had the cure to cancer too. It's not your fault but the guilt is heavy and irrational. That's basically what Shallan feels.
@@EvaaraGaezanlei YES! Added that she did it after she killed her mom, it must have impacted her even more, hell this may have been the point here she stopped acting like normal Shallan. And this is just a speculation of mine, but I think Testaments death confirmed Shallan’s own beliefs of herself, that she’s a monster and that doesn’t deserve love. Honestly I really disagree with people saying that her parents are more important because I think both are just as equal for every single one of us.
I think my whole issue with Shallan's arc in this book is that I thought we were going to get a lot of answers to major lingering questions from the last 3 books. However, for me it looked liked we got one big answer to a question that I never really had. Like for me the big question about shallan wasn't whether she had a different spren in her past, but rather what attracted the cryptics to her in the first place. So yes she had another Spren bond before Pattern that she ended 'killing', but that still doesn't answer the question of why that spren bond was able to form in the first place. All of these major questions with Shallan's story were set up in WoR and are 'still' up in the air by the end of RoW: - What initially attracted the cryptics to Shallan? - What was/is the nature of the relationship between the Davar family and the ghostbloods? - Why is Shallan so sure people would hate her if they found out about her true past? (I still think there's more to this than just her killing her parents and now spren.) - What was the nature behind Heleran's falling out with Davar family? (We know he was working with skybreakers from OB but that's the last piece of info we got.) - Why was Shallan's mother trying to kill her? (I find it notable that we don't know the name of Shallan's mother, I wonder if that's intentional or not.) - Why is Shallan still having trouble with soulcasting? (Was she able to soulcast in the past?) None of those question have been given any real answers and it's been two full books since WoR. For me this kind of gives off a stagnating kind of feeling when it comes to Shallan's story. Instead in this book we focused on different elements of her arc that I'm less interested about. Such as her relationship with Adolin (it still ultimately rubs me the wrong way even though the starspren scene was nice.) And the whole Veil-Shallan-Radiant relationship dynamic. As amazing as Kaladin's arc was in this book I actually was expecting Shallan to be the focus character of the three original mains in this book, so I was a little disappointed that we got so little of her. The one interesting note is now that she's no longer running away from her memories at the end of this book, hopefully in the next one we will finally get some answers. Considering the next book will be some type of ending in and of itself, I would be a little annoyed if a lot of these questions are still left hanging by the end of book five. Especially considering we now have even bigger more "cosmere" level elements getting tied to Shallan's story.
Well I imagine that the cryptics were drawn to her because of the lies she told herself. Her being abused by her mom and dad probably started tears before she started seeing spren.
I also don’t think the ghostbloods are interested in the davars as a whole. Maybe they are but it just seems like they have a hand in everything so why not shallans family.
Shallan thinks people will hate her for multitude of reasons, she has issues. Even if you wouldn’t hate her or if people in fact don’t hate her, nothing you say would make her think otherwise that’s how people with those issues are. Ask my wife haha.
It was implied that shallans mom tried to kill her because she showed her radiant abilities which at the time radiant were a no no. People are afraid of what they don’t understand.
Shallan has trouble soulcasting because it’s the hardest surge to use requiring you to know fundamentals or changing things into other things/ and I feel like she just hasn’t practiced it enough, all she does it try to lightweave. I can’t remember her really testing her soul cast abilities other than the time she accidentally did it in the first book.
I agree that it felt a little easy the wrap up of this situation with the honor spren, but also I was expecting this part to be straight up deathly boring, and I was actually not bored at all, so it didn't bother me. Shallan finding out that she killed her first spren also felt a little underwhelming to me in the begining, but I now think it wasn't so much the spren killing that made her feel so bad, I think it was the addition of that on top of everything else, and the fact that as a child she had no way of knowing what that meant and now she does, so it hits her twice as hard as it would have.Particularlly for someone that dissociates as much as she does. Dawnshard Spoiler: In Dawshard Rsyn is told that she can chose one person to talk to about the things that happen. As long as she consults the sleepless first.
I guess the sleepless are very lax 😆 thank you for that reminder though! I’m glad the trial wasn’t boring at all for you! I definitely wasn’t bored, but I didn’t care quite as much about it as I did about the Kaladin/Navani arc :D
@@ebnovels lol oh yeah, as much as I love Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin's arc will ALWAYS be better hahaha And Navani is now also one of my favorites. For sure
That Shallan stuff wrecked my emotions. Is veil just gone now? That's literally like losing a major character. But a non-crazy Shallan will probably be powerful af.
Shallan has dissociative identity disorder and Veil was an alter that integrated. Shallan managed to process the stuff/memories that Veil protected her from enough that it didn't need to be quarantined from her "core" self. Veil was piece of her and that piece is still there, just not called by a different name anymore.
Yeah I was going to comment this as well. I figured in Dawnshard Vstim would be the one she tood because he’s not a major player and therefore not really a threat to the sleepless and is also really trustworthy as Rysn’s father/mentor figure
I've always said that Szeth is my favourite character in SA. It doesn't make any sense, but him and nightblood together made him go even higher on my list. I am so excited for book 5 for him and Kaladin to go off together and for his back story.
With Shallon- When you are really depressed you often take the negative voice badgering you constant in your own mind and project it onto other people. When I am down and feeling like I’m not loveable or that I’m worthless, I’ll start projecting that onto my husband. So now I just check in and say, “hey, this is the story going through my mind about how you’re feeling about me, is it based in reality”. So I can see why she thinks everyone would hate her, it’s part of mental illness.
I have depression-I have that same mental voice in my head telling me I’m trash. But in this case, I didn’t feel that concept was executed well. I appreciate the effort, while also feeling this particular part of mental illness could’ve been represented better.
I had foreseen that the thing Shallan couldn't face was killing her first spren - and this spren didn't choose like Maya did - so Radiants can kill their spren when they want to.
@@ebnovels That would be tough. We're talking about a bunch of hefty books over a lot of years. I've read all the Cosmere books except White Sands and I don't think I picked up on a single one. All I know is that Wit is Hoid (right?). With that said, I would love to see such a video :)
33:15 that's basically what happens when dead eye Blades are bonded and summoned. The gemstones glow because they contain a part of the soul of the person which helps the Spren to revive just a tiny bit. Adolin seems to be taking the bond further than what was thought to be normally possible. So, yeah, I don't think we have seen the full potential yet. May be, things will change in the next book if BAM is set free.
Omg the way you do Pattern is so adorable, the audio book narrator kinda sounds like that too, it made me so sad for Pattern, I ❤ him! 1. Im actually a huge adolin and shallan stan, and I still agree with you that the timing for them was fine, They really didnt need more of them. 2.(the lady with the rings, i dont know how to spell her name) I dont even remember her showing up again after that initial flash back! (But i didnt really consider her as a *insert mistborn reference here* bc they usually dont wear rings on their fingers. I literally have no idea who the other agent can be!!) 3. I wasnt rooting for Shallan to kill the herald bc I could tell it would lead up to her completely breaking or losing herself, and I didnt want that!
The reveals about Shallan's spren, , Formless, the sprens sacrificing themselves, and Maya turning the tide of the trial were all things I anticipated. I was still thrilled to see them happen. I personally love Shallan and I felt extremely anxious and uncomfortable reading her chapters given how extremely splintered she was. Part of her deal is she doesn't have a handle on reality, she's so absorbed in the fiction she's created for herself that her expectations of others are skewed as well, naturally. The way Shallan would force Veil or Radiant to take over frustrated the hell out of me. So yeah when we realize she's Formless and that she killed her spren, I wasn't surprised, but I was relieved, and I think that's what Sanderson was playing at. Finally, Shallan sees herself for who she is and what she's done. We've all seen it for a while, but finally she catches up. I found it quite moving and loved the Shadesmar chapters, sometimes more than the Urithiru ones because it was a different kind of tension.
Response 3: Yes, Pattern is precious, and I felt so much for him with how Shallan was treating him. I knew he wasn't working with the bloogy Ghostbloods, and the fact that Shallan jumped to that conclusion was both absolutely ridiculous AND totally appropriate for her paranoia. I was literally yelling at my book like a crazy person 😩.
Loved this vid, I felt like you structured your thoughts very well. EDIT: Also about the "reveals" stuff, I often do get similar feelings to you when it comes to reveals not hitting so hard, but I just chock that up to reader/character dissociation. Sometimes when you're from the outside-looking-in (reader) you can't emphasize with the character at every point. No biggie rly, most of the time.
hmm well look at the parents vs spren this way...... parents were kinda obusive towards her and the spren was probably the only companion she had when her parents were being obusive pricks(one of them straight up trying to kill her) so........ yeah for her killing her spren may be a big deal, also in tWoK Shallan says she has an object 10 heartbeats away(which is obviously the dead blade because Pattern does not have the delay......damn 4 books for the reveal)
Honestly part 4 really showed just how interesting The Tower arc was compared to the Shadesmar and War plots - there was so much suspense and conflict (both internal and external) in Part 4 and 5 for Navani and Kaladin and I just didn't feel that for the other main characters
Shallan's story is rough: 1. She killed her mom in self-defence as a child. 2. She killed her spren(her best friend) as a result of killing her mom. 3. She killed her dad as a result of her mom being dead which lead her dad into a violent temper and a cycle of violence. Shallan gave me such a visceral reaction in the chapter 'Strong Enough'. I was FURIOUS when we saw Formless and I was like, "Sanderson, seriously, are we going through this cycle AGAIN?" , then later in that chapter I was SOBBING and was like, "I'm sorry Sanderson, I judged you too soon". I HATED Oathbringer Veil,and LOVED Rhythm Of War Veil. Shallan is a complicated character and as a result, I have a complicated relationship with her. The Adolin and Shallan break didn't bother me because Part 3 was really tight, so imagine reading Kaladin running from Lezian and then you're back to Shadesmar...that'd been so messy. The Singer flashbacks were NEVER going to work as well as the other ones. I mean, they are literally connected to WOR interludes, Oathbringer interludes and then here. The flashbacks were never going to work because unlike in the previous books where you're interested in both the backstory and add a lot of character work, with THIS one, you can only get one of the two or one to a greater degree than the two. For me , it was character work. The flashbacks really added a lot to Venli's character. Speaking of which, it is SO UNFAIR that the Listeners got the blame for everything. Whatever caused the war was beyond them, heck, beyond Roshar as well. Also, Eshonai deserved better. I say it again, Raboniel+Navani in better world, would rule the world. 'Dabbid' was a chapter I didn't know I needed until I read it. I was mentally sobbing, and having it so close to 'The Dog And The Dragon' was so fitting. Also, The Dog and The Dragon' is Sanderson's favorite ROW chapter. Design is the perfect spren for Wit. Kalak is such a mood! He basically tells Adolin, "Bruh, you're wasting your time. You're gonna lose." He's now my favorite Herald, and at least he isn't AS CRAZY as the others. I kinda felt bad for Lirin. If I remember correctly in TWOK, he pursued that 'vengeful grudge' , and lost BOTH his sons. But calling Kaladin a monster is where I draw the line. Raboniel's act of mercy to her daughter...😭😭😭. "Free at last,my baby" I understand how you feel about predictions. What really matters when your prediction comes true is how it comes about, otherwise people would just read Wikipedia pages of movies and not watch the movie itself.
I never much related to Shallan but that description of the horrible fear of rejection that makes you turn into the worst you can think of just so you wouldn't be surprised when everyone hates you... i was bawling my eyes out. And the Pattern reveal...i thought of it, wondered why Pattern would have no memories now since she would have bonded him as a child, but i dismissed the idea cause why would the spren bond someone that would have already killed one of them? All in all i loved her becoming whole and i am now a Shallan fan. Design is the best spren ever! Also ... Lirin is the absolute worst, i just wanna punch him. I love Raboniel but if she touches my preciouses.....I'm on the edge now, just finished chapter 97. Part 4 is definitely the best part so far.
I know it includes from chapter 5 too but I want to write it here as you were wondering where we Raboniel lovers are hiding. Yeah, I agree about her - she literally has to be the best written and most lovable antagonist in fantasy. Period. Yes, I would often find myself on the flipside, my feelings towards her shifted from compasion/sadness (I even cried at the moment when she put her daughter out of her misery), to anger/betrayal when she lied to Navani (twice - firstly about leaving the tower if Navani succeeded and secondly when Navani was speaking with the Sibling and Rabo was spying on her (oh, and ofc at the moment Raboniel took her research after Navani had discovered the anti-Voidlight)). But in the end, what totally redeemed her for me was that her intentions were to end the war AT ALL COSTS - even if it meant it was the humans that won. And a FUSED saving a human... from a HUMAN... that was fucking precious. This made me cry out loudly for Raboniel (#FuckMoashAndThenHisCorpse)
I suspected the deadeye from the market might be connected to Shallan somehow, but I still found the full reveal horribly sad. Of Shallan's 3 murders, only one was pre-determined and two were in self-defense. Testament was different. She blocked the memory initially because it was connected to her mother's death, and I can understand Shallan giving it new context after Not Hurting Your Spren became sort of THE identity of the modern Radiants. They made that the thing that defines them as different from/better than the old Radiants. It makes complete sense that Shallan would internalize that in a big way. Of course she would start to think that if the others found out she killed a spren they would reject her! Having seen what a deadeye was like and how strongly the spren feel about it in 'Oathbringer', she would feel even worse and push it down even further during the year between. What I wonder is, was it Testament she used to kill Tyn and loaned to Kaladin in the chasms? Or was that Pattern *pretending* to be a normal Shardblade? Different point...I think Adolin is still figuring out who he is. He spent his whole life up until pretty much now being seen as extension of his father, and now he has a chance to really define himself for the first time. He's not a Radiant, though Dalinar wants him to be. He's a regular duelist in a world where, as he says, that's becoming less important and useful. So he's trying to figure out how to be helpful and doesn't quite know how to do it yet.
Rysn is allowed to tell (and how much) other people as long as it is approved by the Sleepless. Also, she was talking to Vstim, who she considers her master and father figure so it makes total sense that she would want some/any consultation or advice she can get from him.
I really enjoyed both aspects of the book. I think The Urutheru part will excite those looking forward and wanting to know what will happen (with the learning of the different lights and developing new weapons) and those who want more back story and lore will really enjoy the trial. (We finally learn about the Recreance, a smidgen about the Heralds, and the Ghostbloods/ wider cosmere/ worldhopping. I personally enjoy the Shallans back story too, but I can see how its not for everyone.)
Edit: sorry for the really long comment. I tried to keep it concise but failed. I'm really surprised that you thought this was the weakest part! I thought that this part was a real page turner. The Navani and Raboniel storyline is so incredible and the interactions between Pattern and Shallan hit me super hard. I'm definitely with you on loving Raboniel. I don't think the reveal that Shallan had another spren in the past was meant to be this giant surprise, but rather, another piece to her puzzle, building towards the big moment as Formless. This whole book has been her mental health coming to a head and it's been this predicament of will she heal or further sink into Formless. I think this section showed her mental health struggles beautifully and that healing can be really messy. Wit was a complete gem in chapter 80 as always. I have a collection of Wit quotes written down from throughout the series. He always knows the perfect thing to say. I completely agree with what you said about the Adolin/Maya stuff. I wanted more. I was actually enjoying Adolin because of the Maya stuff. I'll be excited to learn more about the deadeyes. Lirin is so friggin hateable, omg. Chapter 97 was the most incredible and left off on such a cliffhanger omfg. With 150ish pages left, I can safely say, this is my favorite Stormlight book so far.
Really enjoying the chat videos as everyone I know that's ready RoW is taking their sweet sweet time lol. Also kind of spoiler for dawn shard... It was agreed that she could share her secret with a select, approved few so the Rysn chapter made sense to me.
I agree that the Shadesmar plotline resolved conveniently. We took so much time away from them, then we return for 3-4 chapters to finish it off and not go back to them for so long in the book too.
Just finished part 4, I felt the same about the scene with Wit and Kaladin. I made a character tier list when Allen from the Library of Allenxandria asked about favourite characters on his community tab, but totally forgot about Wit. Top tier for me now :) I laughed so hard when Kaladin finally understood that he is the dog 😄 Also their dynamic reminded me a little bit of Gerald and Jaskier, I imagine a scene where Gerald would ask him for a story. Jaskier would be so happy and bring that up their whole lives afterwards: "But that one time you asked me for a story" :D
I just want to say in Adolin's defense, he said he would stand trial on his own actions not those of all humainy. He thought he could persuade them based off his own character.
The part where you spoke about Dalinar and his insistent and failed attempts at emulsion, actually made a lot of sense to me, since it exposed a lot of aspects of the Alethi, their Vorin church and his own reputation as a ruthless warlord being an impediment. A parallel can be drawn with Muhammed or Jesus. He was proclaiming religious herecy, proclaiming their god was dead and everything they believed in was folly while also having prophetic visions and whatnot. All of those moments reaffirm just how hard it is to bring about any kind of revolution. I'm surprised people missed the parallel here.
Remember the Red chicken that is now with lift.. the last master of that ( pegion) had jewelry marks, when lift inspected the body she said it was a old soldier and had been wearing jewelry and then Mraize killed him..... that guy fits the description of someone else like her.....
@@ebnovels Lord Brandon has his reasons..... 🙇♂️🙇♂️ Tho....... Idk thats just wat i took out of that... may be his death calls out a stronger response from the opposition....
@@ebnovels we also see him in the prologue, and in a flashback...he's the 'house steward'. I think he's been opposing them for a while and he probably works for someone directly opposing the Ghostbloods (my guess is the big guy on Scadrial)
I just finished RoW, started it recently even though I pre-ordered it way back when. I love going through these spoiler chats for each section. I agree with everything you have to say with Kaladin. I just think it's funny how you dislike Adolin. I love Adolin, too, even though his treatment of Kaladin pre-duel in WoR was annoying (very snobby, like the way Shallan treated Kaladin too). But I'm all in for the bromance. Agree too that it should've been Eshonai alive with an honorspren...Venli definitely seems to be the most passive protagonist. I do love Timbr so much. So cute.
The flashbacks work way better when it's about the characters inner turmoil and the origin of the person they and now. Venlis flashbacks started off so well with her family dynamics but then when that spren Ulim comes it just negates everything interesting about her character. Is it not more compelling that she caused the desolation due to her finding a way to heal her mother rather than an outside force manipulating her ambition.
I'm starting to feel like the consensus is: Oathbringer's Dalinar's flashbacks were more interesting and palatable than RoW's Venli/Eshonai's ones. and it's a bit perplexing to me personally because although the parshendi flashbacks weren't as super duper engaging as say Navani's chapters (which were the absolute peak of this book), reading Dalinar's flashbacks in Oathbringer was near torture to me because I could smell from a mile how they will play out and my experience while reading boiled down to boredom from the predictability and the wish to finally get it over with. Dalinar's final confrontation in the present time was amazing, but only a reread of the book will tell me if the cost of those flashbacks was really worth it. that being said, I can't remember how long those flashback chapters were and how that factored in in both cases.
Kalek is Restares and Restares was the one who ordered Amaram to kill all of Kaladins remaining squad and steal and blade and shards. And yet he's a Herald who let himself be tortured for millennia for humanity until he broke. I have no idea how to feel about this guy
Response 2: I totally understand where you're coming from in regards to the Listener backstories here, but I loved them. Also, Jaxlim's decent into dimentia made me cry at each further step downward. I wish I could say more, but alas it must wait for part 5.
I see this mentioned in other comments, but I think the deal with Shallan is less as to whether her loved ones will accept her and more if she can confront her fears. For us the readers, there’s no question as to whether Shallan’s loved ones will accept her. Of course they will. But Shallan’s arc is partially to stop lying to herself, and mostly learning that she deserves to be loved, like everyone should. Shallan kind of hates who she is underneath all of the lies (even if the lies hold a piece of truth in them, mmmmm), and her arc is both accepting who she is, and to stop believing that she is undeserving of the love of her friends and family. I’ve known some people who’ve gone through similar issues, so it’s good to see some big mental health rep in this book around the board.
12:55 Spoilers. . . . . . . . . . In the interlude it mentioned a man wearing a lot of rings. Also, in the previous Lift interlude when she takes the red "chicken" it leads her to a man who has all of his rings removed from his dead body. It's likely this is the person they are referring to, and yes, likely they are both Feruchemists.
Shallan is easily my least favorite of all the main POV characters. She’s such a selfish brat. She will do something that makes me like her for a minute and then turn around and be awful again. She is so mean to Pattern in Part 4. Bless his heart. She’s so traumatized by the knowledge that she killed her first spren, but treats her current spren like trash. She had better apologize and be nice to him going forward. Also hated her when she locked Radiant up in her mind. The three of them have a pact: when 2 vote against 1, the 2 votes win. Since Veil and Radiant often disagree, Shallan is often the tie-breaker so things always go Shallan’s way. The second Veil and Radiant agree and Shallan is outvoted, Shallan locks one of them up and just does what she wants anyway, violating their pact. What a little B. Adolin is perfect for Shallan but she’s right, she doesn’t deserve him. He does so much for her and is so caring and patient and understanding, yet she often neglects him.
So who do you hate more, lirin or adolin? 😛 Part 4 was my fav! I do wish the shadesmar plot line had been expanded and some moved to part 3 since part 3 was so slow for me. We didnt see shallan reveal her secrets to adolin, we could've gotten more time with Formless. I love raboniel and navani! Who is that lady from Mistborn??? Raboniel is such a good villain. Omg! I didn't realize it was imposter syndrome, but now I know why I like navani so much!
Szeth Backstory - Can't wait 😭 Adolin shallan not being in part -3... Absolutely fine 👍 Second Spren secret hit me hard but I agree that shallan killing her parents was a bigger deal 🥺 About we needing more information about Heralds for better impacts.. can't agree more 🙏 "A Dog and The Dragons" is Sanderson's favourite chapter from this book.. I can see why 😀 I think Shallan got the memory of killing ialai not from absorbing Veil but because Radiant told her that.. IDK Last chapter of this part total 💔 and a dreadful discovery.. I like this part quite a lot but part 5 is obviously my favourite
She gets that memory back because that's what she had repressed *before* Radiant took over and killed Ialai so that Shallan wouldn't. Like, that memory is why Radiant knew that she had to take over. The line in part 1 is something like, "Shallan reached into her satchel, but Radiant's hand came out."
I think it'd be worse to shallan to have killed her Soren because like. Her parents were terrible to her whereas the spren just come and try to love and support you. Like shallans parents were just her abusers so I can see her caring more for the spren
Am I alone in that RoW is turning out to be up there with Words of Radiance for me? It’s so personal and emotional, and I’m freaking eating this book up
Can I just say I really love Kalak's character? He acts so carefree and nonchalant despite being so paranoid after thousands of years of torture. Granted, he did told Amaram to take Kaladin's shards after he won them in the Alethkar border skirmishes, but he never told Amaram to enslave Kaladin. Kalak is my favorite Herald at this point.
I thought the whole Shallan story was leading up to her being recruited as a child to the Ghostbloods and the trauma of being manipulated and psychologically abused as a child to become their “knife” was what initially pushed her into escaping into different versions of herself. It would have made sense that when she cast away her spren and was no longer useful to the organization, they moved on to her brother.
well, on that dalinar part at the end, I think it's just part of his character to try to convince people to follow him. His oath is to unite after all, so it's kinda what he does
I think the thing with the needle memory was that Veil was the one planning to kill Ialai but she got outvoted? So she decided not to, but she had planned for it. And then Radiant made the decision to do it in the moment? I'm not entirely sure without looking at the book again, but I remember being confused about that too and that's just how it made sense to me.
I understand that the fact that Shallan had killed her spreen affected her as a radiant. Her question however is more profound, she is afraid of not being accepted, she is afraid of repeating the same mistakes and hurting those she loves. That's why she wants to find an easier way out, she wants to have somewhere to escape. It doesn't seem like much to anyone from the outside, but it is very important to her, and the fear of losing someone we love is one of the worst fears that exist because it isolates us from everyone.I don't know if anyone has already spoken but from what I understand Shallan recovers his memory by absorbing Veil because it was Veil's job to hide Shallan's painful memories. even the things that she or Radiant made. Sorry for commenting a long time later. I'm reading Rhythm of war right now 🤓
My father died shortly before I read this book, so I understand what it’s like to lose someone, and I’m definitely fearful of losing other people I love. I still feel personally-though I normally really appreciate Sanderson’s portrayal of mental health-that he used Shallan’s mental health as a means to execute a plot twist in this book that ultimately imo came across a little lazy.
I think the Shallan part was important because she didn't remember killing her parents. She knew that she had killed them. I think that difference is very important and I think is what it was trying to convey. It's like her knowledge was 2nd hand before. Hope that makes sense.
I thought it was a pretty big deal about the first spren. She broke an oath and to her that might make her a traitor to people she loves. But she was young when it happened, she couldn’t understand the full consequences of her actions.
About Veil giving back a memory of something Radiant did.. We know Veil was the Protector for Shallan and I believe People who hve the disorder Shallan has often have at least one alters who is basically the keeper for memories. So i think Veil kinda had all the bad memories which she kept to protect Shallan, regardless of who physically did something.
Yeah, Veil's what I think is termed a trauma keeper/holder. Radiant has access to the memories as well, but she's more for doing things that Shallan feels unable or unsuited to do normally.
Regarding the memory of killing Ielai (spelling? I'm an audiobook listener), it's possible that Veil and Radiant were co-con, or both conscious at the time while Shallan was dissociating.
I thought the second spren plot encapsulates kind the problem with stormlight. It repeats itself a lot. Instead of coming up with various things that shallan could be hiding from herself it's always she killed someone. Kaladin is also one note too, I have to protect people, when he could have way more problems.
I think you misunderstood that Shallan's memory part. Shallan is going to kill Ialai. In order to save shallan from doing it Radiant steps in does it. So that shallan doesn't have to go through it.
31:30 The needle was prepared by Shallan in advance. The murder was done by Radiant. So technically it is possible. But I do find it weird that Radiant would kill Ialai, given that she was the one who was originally against it. Seems a bit out of character to me.
The alters exist largely to protect Shallan. Radiant killed Ialai to prevent Shallan from doing it, because Shallan would have been further broken by doing it but kinda-thought it was necessary and she had to be ruthless, etc. Or that's what I got...
"I always gravitate towards Szeth"
He's just lashing you
lol, i like that :)
Shallan killing her mom? Mom tried to kill her first. Killing her dad? Her dad was abusive. Killing her spren, her best friend, that she actually likes and likes her back? That’s rough
I still think her parents were a bigger deal 🤷🏻♀️
@@ebnovels I’m in two minds about this, I kind of feel like we should have seen some kind of interaction between Shallan and Testament. But as it stands the big reveal really has no impact for me.
@@ebnovels I think Shallan killing her parents should have a bigger impact on her. But killing her spren could have more ramifications on the rest of the world and on how the other radiants view Shallan.
Yea Spencer, I was about to write the same thing.
@@helplessblobfish3935 imagine chapters of backstory about Little Shallan and Pattern... but all along it was Testament, not Pattern. I think the reveal of Shallan killing her first spren would have more shock factor.
I mean the fact that Shallan acts irrationally and fears that Adolin will hate her, might not make sense from the readers perspective, but I think that this was the point. Shallan has some real issues and this is just one manifestation of it
See, this the reason why I can't connect with her. You have Venli on hand admitting to bringing about doomsday and then you have Shallan... Like...idk man, her issues with revealing herself feel a bit blown out of proportion in that respect.
She's an interesting character and I would find it very enjoyable to write and essay about her from an analytical standpoint. But emotionally I just can't connect.
That's how I interpreted it too
@@Okapeep doesn’t she have anxiety? Or was it just me that got that feeling from her lol
@@calamari2447 you're probably right about that, now that I think about it
Shallan has PTSD as well, or possibly complex PTSD, due to her childhood trauma. As someone who suffers from both, it's a very common thing to blame yourself for what happened, which turns into a huge shameful secret, which you then assume everyone would hate you for if they knew about it. What happened to you, as a survivor of childhood trauma, becomes like your "fatal flaw" even though it wasn't your fault. It is a survival instinct to protect that secret or event(s).
Maya waits 10 heartbeats to summon Adolin as a Humanblade.
😯
As someone who's been diagnosed with BPD and bipolar depression I really gravitate towards Kal's and Shallan's characters but holy moly that scene with Wit legit made me freaking bawl. Especially those last 5 words were something I really needed to hear after this mess of a year.
That part was so emotional! Even the story about the dog itself made me sad 😄
Someone somewhere said Adolin is everyone’s support human this book and I have never agreed harder with a statement lol
Isn't it interesting how Lirin and Dalinar are mirrors in their chosen professions (soldier vs. doctor) but have the same methods of projecting their standards, values and reasoning (they make others feel inadequate in their presence). Theres even scenes describing how commanding and authoritative Lirin can be, and as you've pointed out previously, Dalinar can come across as holier than thou. They are, in effect, the same types of fathers; just separated by a social class gulf
As an older father of teens and young adults, I frequently sympathize with Lirin and Dalinar. Their well-intentioned wisdom is proffered to help their children, but it only ends up driving an emotional wedge between them. To me, this is all too sad, and sadly all too relatable.
Dalinar WAS holier than the warcamp degenerates
Raboniel and her daughter's scene BROKE me. The level of humanization is incredible.
This was super hard hitting for me too
I am so ready for Szeth's backstory!! I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've been waiting since book 1... ever since that prologue in WoK I was so interested to find out more about him.
Right? When the palace guard asks Szeth, "what ARE you"?
And Szeth replies, " What am I? I am sorry." Ever since then...WE NEED MORE SZETH!!
Has Sanderson said one of the five books will be Szeth’s backstory? Everyone keeps acting like it’s definitely going to happen. Do we have any confirmation of this? I would absolutely love to get his backstory.
@@shananika oh yh it's for sure gonna be book 5 no doubt. Why all of a sudden are we now getting subtle information on Szeths past in RoW, obviously like Shallan and Dalinar we get little drops of info in previous books to set up their own book. And if you read the back of The Way of Kings there's a paragraph stating a prophecy (which from Edgedancer and Dawnshard I'm guessing is spoken by the Lifeless as they repeated some variation of this prophecy) It basically states that there are four Individuals they watch who will be important for the coming desolation, the surgeon (Kaladin), the scholar (Shallan), the Prince (Dalinar) and the Assassin who is obviously Szeth. Also in terms of major players there really is no other character who needs a backstory, I mean Navani Jasnah Renarin and Adolin basically play second fiddle to Dalinars backstory and outside of the Kholins there aren't really any other "Major" players.
@@vishanthfishy We so need Szeth's backstory and Shinovar just absolutely sounds fantastic. It also seems like the most earth-like, and that'll be fascinating in itself to have something familiar in an otherwise completely alien landscape. And the Shin people have so far sounded amazing and mysterious. We totally need more of Szeth and his land and people!
The reveal wasn't that Kalak was the judge. The reveal was that Kalak was Restares, the leader of Sons of Honor, a group trying to bring back the voidbringers so that Heralds would come back to save them too. Imo, the fact that a herald had himself formed that group was...(mind blown)
This book really drives home that ALL the Heralds are crazy in their own way. Each one is suffering from their own particular brand of madness, or are letting a singular concept consume their every waking moment.
When your ashamed of something and you push it down, represe it, it grows insides and becomes a beast all of its owm and eventually won't reflect reality. Shallan did present how twisted things can get when children repress things and go up without dealing with it.
I love how Rlain, even though he’s a bit repulsed by Venli at this point, actually contemplates taking mate form with her to produce more listeners.
Dalinar: hey guys can we do like, a Skype call?
Everyone: nope
I need Pattern in everyday life! I think speaking to him would just brighten everyday. Also he is good at math and I need that in my life.
Chatgpt now lol
Dabbids chapter destroyed me :(
For me Oathbringer reveal had some impact, but Shallan's one on RoW had much less, i mean, she killed her parents...
Also I'm starting to like Shallan and Adolin together bc i don't think Kal would be able to help her as much as Adolin does.
I don’t know that I ever wanted her with Kaladin; I think I wanted her alone, but maybe her relationship with Adolin could continue to develop rather than have them get married so quickly 😆
@@ebnovels for some time i wanted Shalladin to happen... I never considered Shallan to remain single... Idk why 🧐
The other person that drove off Axendwith.... he's the steward in the prologue, he dies in that Lift Interlude and he's the one that actually had the Red Chicken!!
A steward with an Aviar? I want to know more about him!
Yeah, that's gotta be it. I do wish we knew more about who he was.
I think hes name is Gereh right ? Navani remembers his name in prologue
@@ando336699 yeah that's his name
"Teft was a better father figure than Lirin" YESSSSSS and Teft's chapter may be my favorite chapter so far because it is a spot of hope and happiness in the middle of all this neverending hopelessness.
Shallan prepared the needle, Veil hid the fact from Shallan even in the moment, and Radiant did the deed so that Shallan would not. It didn't exactly contradict itself. Just a messy confusion because of how Shallan works.
I so wanted Venly to help Relain and the Radiants and the whole lot of them to escape the tower and go find the Listeners together. I feel her insistence on going to them is going to end very badly.
Response 5: I can't say enough about how much I love the Navani and Raboniel research/dealing with imposter syndrome/stockholm syndrome arc. At the beginning I was like, "Navani, if you work with this woman you are going to inadvertently give them a weapon that will further stack the odds against humanity." Then I read all the beautiful research chapters where Sanderson perfectly captures the sense of the numinous that arises with discovery, basking in that, all the while also muttering to myself about how Navani was doing EXACTLY what I knew she was going to do 😩. While I certainly felt the fatigue in Raboniel's character with this never-ending conflict, I honestly did NOT expect her to kill her daughter with the anti-voidlight. Her grief made, plus the fact that she was having a copy of Rhythm of War made for Navani, to let her keep that knowledge that could permanently kill the Fused and thus make a level killing field to finish the war, cemented her as one of my favourite characters yet in all of Sanderson's works. She helped Navani, this brilliant scientist of her day, see through her imposter syndrome (which I totally blame, and hate, Gavilar for) and was, from her introduction to this point, one of the most foreboding "villain" characters to me that I have ever read. Yet I can't help but love her character. The nauseating implications for the Cosmere of the anti-voidlight and anti-stormlight, absolute destruction of the essence of a Shard, was such a cliff to drop us off of to end part 4. Like what the bloody hell does this mean for the other Shards????! I hope I wasn't the only one who had to put the book down for a bit and contemplate that for a good long while before I could pick it up again.
Brandon Sanderson is a genius
Dabbid's chapter legit made me tear up. I hope we get a lot more out of him.
Yeah that story line really hit me in a soft spot, I really hope he gets a spren.
Response 4: The dynamic between Wit and Design brings me so much joy. I was laughing so hard I cried reading that part despite how depressing Kaladin's situation was. Yes, the crying at the, "you will be warm again." line was real. And yes, Pattern was so damn good this book. Some of the best comic relief ever. And no, not rooting for Herald murder >.>
I wish Shallan's spren reveal had a bigger effect on the trial. As it was, it was pretty underwhelming I agree.
Also, Raboniel and Navani were so amazing!
I don’t agree with you on Eshonai being the more interesting sister. I actually think that if Eshonai had lived we would have grown bored with her. She was so sure of herself and at worse would have had to overcome confidence issues after being wrong and losing people. She was too much a goody two shoes but Venli having to admit that she was selfish and a coward is far more interesting as you’re basically giving her a redemption arc and she is only at the start of it now. I like this way better. I’m glad Sanderson was forced to get rid of Eshonai. To me it’s a happy accident.
I think I wanted Venli to do a little more in this book, instead of thinking about doing things and then think she was worthless 😅 but I get what you mean! And I think I was just a little impatient with her; I’m hoping I’ll feel more connected on reread!
@@ebnovels I hope you will. The flashbacks in this book pale in comparison with the main narrative and I think, at least for me it was this way, that my excitement for what would be the continuation of the main storyline was so much that when reading flashbacks I wanted to get through them and that attitude I had towards them was what made me not enjoy them as much.
SPOILERS FOR THE SECOND SPECIALIST IN KHOLINAR
General opinion is that Gereh. The finnicky steward who told Navani about the death of Gavilar, and also had a handful of rings was another Feruchemist who tuned Gavilar against Axindweth.
He was the guy with the red aviar/chicken who Mraize killed.
I think the main confusion about shallan is like how severe depression is usually portrayed and most people don't get it. People are like this does not feel real this does not feel sad but that's how it also is in real life. In this case people seem lilke they forgot all of Shallan's personalities are herself, and this was the main point of Formless. I also agree on the part that it felt too quick and wrapped up really fast and conveniantly but saying Formless was allways shallan is missing the point that all of her personalities are façades, she pretends like they are real to the point they are almost real, her head is fractured. And her feelings are supposed to be irrational, she made herself believe that she commited such a sin even she can not confront it. I agree with almost every criticism about shallan and adolins story in many reviews (except maya's reveal being conveniant i felt like that was the whole reason this arc existed and it was foreshadowed to a point it shouldnt have been a surprise but everyone has a different experience so I respect what everyone thinks) but people should think more about how mental illnesses work and how they are not the same for all cases.
This exactly. I find it weird that people get Navani being irrational with her imposter syndrome but anxiety and misplaced guilt is the same vein of irrationality for cases like Shallan. A truly good person will always blame themselves and weigh their sins harsher compared to when they're judging people. Kaladin does this all the time too. Shallan killed the most important person to her back when she was a kid and all the other reasons that add to her guilt just keep on piling up. Imagine if you killed your best friend accidentally and they apparently had the cure to cancer too. It's not your fault but the guilt is heavy and irrational. That's basically what Shallan feels.
@@EvaaraGaezanlei YES! Added that she did it after she killed her mom, it must have impacted her even more, hell this may have been the point here she stopped acting like normal Shallan. And this is just a speculation of mine, but I think Testaments death confirmed Shallan’s own beliefs of herself, that she’s a monster and that doesn’t deserve love. Honestly I really disagree with people saying that her parents are more important because I think both are just as equal for every single one of us.
I think my whole issue with Shallan's arc in this book is that I thought we were going to get a lot of answers to major lingering questions from the last 3 books. However, for me it looked liked we got one big answer to a question that I never really had. Like for me the big question about shallan wasn't whether she had a different spren in her past, but rather what attracted the cryptics to her in the first place. So yes she had another Spren bond before Pattern that she ended 'killing', but that still doesn't answer the question of why that spren bond was able to form in the first place.
All of these major questions with Shallan's story were set up in WoR and are 'still' up in the air by the end of RoW:
- What initially attracted the cryptics to Shallan?
- What was/is the nature of the relationship between the Davar family and the ghostbloods?
- Why is Shallan so sure people would hate her if they found out about her true past? (I still think there's more to this than just her killing her parents and now spren.)
- What was the nature behind Heleran's falling out with Davar family? (We know he was working with skybreakers from OB but that's the last piece of info we got.)
- Why was Shallan's mother trying to kill her? (I find it notable that we don't know the name of Shallan's mother, I wonder if that's intentional or not.)
- Why is Shallan still having trouble with soulcasting? (Was she able to soulcast in the past?)
None of those question have been given any real answers and it's been two full books since WoR. For me this kind of gives off a stagnating kind of feeling when it comes to Shallan's story. Instead in this book we focused on different elements of her arc that I'm less interested about. Such as her relationship with Adolin (it still ultimately rubs me the wrong way even though the starspren scene was nice.) And the whole Veil-Shallan-Radiant relationship dynamic.
As amazing as Kaladin's arc was in this book I actually was expecting Shallan to be the focus character of the three original mains in this book, so I was a little disappointed that we got so little of her. The one interesting note is now that she's no longer running away from her memories at the end of this book, hopefully in the next one we will finally get some answers. Considering the next book will be some type of ending in and of itself, I would be a little annoyed if a lot of these questions are still left hanging by the end of book five. Especially considering we now have even bigger more "cosmere" level elements getting tied to Shallan's story.
Well I imagine that the cryptics were drawn to her because of the lies she told herself. Her being abused by her mom and dad probably started tears before she started seeing spren.
I also don’t think the ghostbloods are interested in the davars as a whole. Maybe they are but it just seems like they have a hand in everything so why not shallans family.
Shallan thinks people will hate her for multitude of reasons, she has issues. Even if you wouldn’t hate her or if people in fact don’t hate her, nothing you say would make her think otherwise that’s how people with those issues are. Ask my wife haha.
It was implied that shallans mom tried to kill her because she showed her radiant abilities which at the time radiant were a no no. People are afraid of what they don’t understand.
Shallan has trouble soulcasting because it’s the hardest surge to use requiring you to know fundamentals or changing things into other things/ and I feel like she just hasn’t practiced it enough, all she does it try to lightweave. I can’t remember her really testing her soul cast abilities other than the time she accidentally did it in the first book.
Part 4 felt like an overcompensation wrt to the shadesmar arc. Also, Maya-dolin is very pure, please give them some love.
I did though 😄
I'm actually happy Shallan didn't kill the Herald. Something about doing the Ghostbloods' bidding doesn't sit right with me.
Wit’s story was my favourite part of the book. 😅
That’s my favorite part too! 😊
I loved his parable against the backdrop of Braize. That safe cozy haven of Wit with the fire was such a vibe!
I agree that it felt a little easy the wrap up of this situation with the honor spren, but also I was expecting this part to be straight up deathly boring, and I was actually not bored at all, so it didn't bother me.
Shallan finding out that she killed her first spren also felt a little underwhelming to me in the begining, but I now think it wasn't so much the spren killing that made her feel so bad, I think it was the addition of that on top of everything else, and the fact that as a child she had no way of knowing what that meant and now she does, so it hits her twice as hard as it would have.Particularlly for someone that dissociates as much as she does.
Dawnshard Spoiler:
In Dawshard Rsyn is told that she can chose one person to talk to about the things that happen. As long as she consults the sleepless first.
I guess the sleepless are very lax 😆 thank you for that reminder though! I’m glad the trial wasn’t boring at all for you! I definitely wasn’t bored, but I didn’t care quite as much about it as I did about the Kaladin/Navani arc :D
@@ebnovels lol oh yeah, as much as I love Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin's arc will ALWAYS be better hahaha
And Navani is now also one of my favorites. For sure
She did a 180 for me in this book! :D
That Shallan stuff wrecked my emotions. Is veil just gone now? That's literally like losing a major character. But a non-crazy Shallan will probably be powerful af.
I mean Veil is just Shallan, so she is still there- but the persona is gone for good TUT
Shallan has dissociative identity disorder and Veil was an alter that integrated. Shallan managed to process the stuff/memories that Veil protected her from enough that it didn't need to be quarantined from her "core" self. Veil was piece of her and that piece is still there, just not called by a different name anymore.
Rysn had been told that she could tell people her secret if she asked first.
I wouldn’t have thought her babsk would be sleepless approved
Yeah I was going to comment this as well. I figured in Dawnshard Vstim would be the one she tood because he’s not a major player and therefore not really a threat to the sleepless and is also really trustworthy as Rysn’s father/mentor figure
31:22 Radiant is the one that killed Ialai, but Veil was the one going in prepared to kill Ialai, and then changed her mind.
I've always said that Szeth is my favourite character in SA. It doesn't make any sense, but him and nightblood together made him go even higher on my list. I am so excited for book 5 for him and Kaladin to go off together and for his back story.
Love Szeth but Nightblood is too much like Stormbringer from the Elric of Melnibone Saga. The OG soul-stealing sword 🗡
With Shallon- When you are really depressed you often take the negative voice badgering you constant in your own mind and project it onto other people. When I am down and feeling like I’m not loveable or that I’m worthless, I’ll start projecting that onto my husband. So now I just check in and say, “hey, this is the story going through my mind about how you’re feeling about me, is it based in reality”. So I can see why she thinks everyone would hate her, it’s part of mental illness.
I have depression-I have that same mental voice in my head telling me I’m trash. But in this case, I didn’t feel that concept was executed well. I appreciate the effort, while also feeling this particular part of mental illness could’ve been represented better.
Chiri-Chiri is my favorite baby dragon!
I had foreseen that the thing Shallan couldn't face was killing her first spren - and this spren didn't choose like Maya did - so Radiants can kill their spren when they want to.
Can you do a cosmere spoilers identifying the things reveled in Rythm?
I might! I’m also nervous that there will be so many I’ll miss 🙈
@@ebnovels That would be tough. We're talking about a bunch of hefty books over a lot of years. I've read all the Cosmere books except White Sands and I don't think I picked up on a single one. All I know is that Wit is Hoid (right?). With that said, I would love to see such a video :)
@@ebnovels please do 🙏
33:15 that's basically what happens when dead eye Blades are bonded and summoned. The gemstones glow because they contain a part of the soul of the person which helps the Spren to revive just a tiny bit. Adolin seems to be taking the bond further than what was thought to be normally possible. So, yeah, I don't think we have seen the full potential yet. May be, things will change in the next book if BAM is set free.
About Rysn telling Vstim her secret. In Dawnshard Rysn says that she'll need to tell someone eventually, and the sleepless agree.
Omg the way you do Pattern is so adorable, the audio book narrator kinda sounds like that too, it made me so sad for Pattern, I ❤ him!
1. Im actually a huge adolin and shallan stan, and I still agree with you that the timing for them was fine, They really didnt need more of them.
2.(the lady with the rings, i dont know how to spell her name) I dont even remember her showing up again after that initial flash back! (But i didnt really consider her as a *insert mistborn reference here* bc they usually dont wear rings on their fingers. I literally have no idea who the other agent can be!!)
3. I wasnt rooting for Shallan to kill the herald bc I could tell it would lead up to her completely breaking or losing herself, and I didnt want that!
The reveals about Shallan's spren, , Formless, the sprens sacrificing themselves, and Maya turning the tide of the trial were all things I anticipated. I was still thrilled to see them happen.
I personally love Shallan and I felt extremely anxious and uncomfortable reading her chapters given how extremely splintered she was. Part of her deal is she doesn't have a handle on reality, she's so absorbed in the fiction she's created for herself that her expectations of others are skewed as well, naturally. The way Shallan would force Veil or Radiant to take over frustrated the hell out of me. So yeah when we realize she's Formless and that she killed her spren, I wasn't surprised, but I was relieved, and I think that's what Sanderson was playing at. Finally, Shallan sees herself for who she is and what she's done. We've all seen it for a while, but finally she catches up. I found it quite moving and loved the Shadesmar chapters, sometimes more than the Urithiru ones because it was a different kind of tension.
Response 3: Yes, Pattern is precious, and I felt so much for him with how Shallan was treating him. I knew he wasn't working with the bloogy Ghostbloods, and the fact that Shallan jumped to that conclusion was both absolutely ridiculous AND totally appropriate for her paranoia. I was literally yelling at my book like a crazy person 😩.
Loved this vid, I felt like you structured your thoughts very well.
EDIT: Also about the "reveals" stuff, I often do get similar feelings to you when it comes to reveals not hitting so hard, but I just chock that up to reader/character dissociation. Sometimes when you're from the outside-looking-in (reader) you can't emphasize with the character at every point. No biggie rly, most of the time.
The man with the red chicken is the specialist
right! I said the same thing...
You think he’s a feruchemist? I’ll have to go back and read that part.
@@ebnovels he is
@@ebnovels he's probably Gereh, the steward in the Kholinar Palace from the prologue. You can see the tan lines where he wore his rings.
I was definitely freaking out about how awesome Raboniel is! Her scenes, especially with Navani, were some of the best scenes I think I've ever read
I can summarize your feelings for the whole book:
Kaladin: Good
Adolin: bad
:)
Hahaha. It's cause Kaladin is the dark, brooding, broken boi with good intentions. It makes girls want to go awww I want to fix him. He even sparkles!
hmm well look at the parents vs spren this way...... parents were kinda obusive towards her and the spren was probably the only companion she had when her parents were being obusive pricks(one of them straight up trying to kill her) so........ yeah for her killing her spren may be a big deal, also in tWoK Shallan says she has an object 10 heartbeats away(which is obviously the dead blade because Pattern does not have the delay......damn 4 books for the reveal)
Honestly part 4 really showed just how interesting The Tower arc was compared to the Shadesmar and War plots - there was so much suspense and conflict (both internal and external) in Part 4 and 5 for Navani and Kaladin and I just didn't feel that for the other main characters
Lol when teft when he said that..... lopens face popped up in my head after hell of a long time.
Shallan's story is rough:
1. She killed her mom in self-defence as a child.
2. She killed her spren(her best friend) as a result of killing her mom.
3. She killed her dad as a result of her mom being dead which lead her dad into a violent temper and a cycle of violence.
Shallan gave me such a visceral reaction in the chapter 'Strong Enough'. I was FURIOUS when we saw Formless and I was like, "Sanderson, seriously, are we going through this cycle AGAIN?" , then later in that chapter I was SOBBING and was like, "I'm sorry Sanderson, I judged you too soon".
I HATED Oathbringer Veil,and LOVED Rhythm Of War Veil. Shallan is a complicated character and as a result, I have a complicated relationship with her. The Adolin and Shallan break didn't bother me because Part 3 was really tight, so imagine reading Kaladin running from Lezian and then you're back to Shadesmar...that'd been so messy.
The Singer flashbacks were NEVER going to work as well as the other ones. I mean, they are literally connected to WOR interludes, Oathbringer interludes and then here. The flashbacks were never going to work because unlike in the previous books where you're interested in both the backstory and add a lot of character work, with THIS one, you can only get one of the two or one to a greater degree than the two. For me , it was character work. The flashbacks really added a lot to Venli's character. Speaking of which, it is SO UNFAIR that the Listeners got the blame for everything. Whatever caused the war was beyond them, heck, beyond Roshar as well.
Also, Eshonai deserved better.
I say it again, Raboniel+Navani in better world, would rule the world.
'Dabbid' was a chapter I didn't know I needed until I read it. I was mentally sobbing, and having it so close to 'The Dog And The Dragon' was so fitting. Also, The Dog and The Dragon' is Sanderson's favorite ROW chapter. Design is the perfect spren for Wit.
Kalak is such a mood! He basically tells Adolin, "Bruh, you're wasting your time. You're gonna lose." He's now my favorite Herald, and at least he isn't AS CRAZY as the others.
I kinda felt bad for Lirin. If I remember correctly in TWOK, he pursued that 'vengeful grudge' , and lost BOTH his sons. But calling Kaladin a monster is where I draw the line.
Raboniel's act of mercy to her daughter...😭😭😭. "Free at last,my baby"
I understand how you feel about predictions. What really matters when your prediction comes true is how it comes about, otherwise people would just read Wikipedia pages of movies and not watch the movie itself.
The trial of Adolin is so reminiscent of a certain other trial scene written by Brandon Sanderson that I immediately thought "Young Bull."
I'm hoping we'll see more of Raboniel in the back 5, when we get to the flashbacks of Taln and Ash
I never much related to Shallan but that description of the horrible fear of rejection that makes you turn into the worst you can think of just so you wouldn't be surprised when everyone hates you... i was bawling my eyes out.
And the Pattern reveal...i thought of it, wondered why Pattern would have no memories now since she would have bonded him as a child, but i dismissed the idea cause why would the spren bond someone that would have already killed one of them?
All in all i loved her becoming whole and i am now a Shallan fan.
Design is the best spren ever!
Also ... Lirin is the absolute worst, i just wanna punch him.
I love Raboniel but if she touches my preciouses.....I'm on the edge now, just finished chapter 97.
Part 4 is definitely the best part so far.
I know it includes from chapter 5 too but I want to write it here as you were wondering where we Raboniel lovers are hiding. Yeah, I agree about her - she literally has to be the best written and most lovable antagonist in fantasy. Period. Yes, I would often find myself on the flipside, my feelings towards her shifted from compasion/sadness (I even cried at the moment when she put her daughter out of her misery), to anger/betrayal when she lied to Navani (twice - firstly about leaving the tower if Navani succeeded and secondly when Navani was speaking with the Sibling and Rabo was spying on her (oh, and ofc at the moment Raboniel took her research after Navani had discovered the anti-Voidlight)). But in the end, what totally redeemed her for me was that her intentions were to end the war AT ALL COSTS - even if it meant it was the humans that won. And a FUSED saving a human... from a HUMAN... that was fucking precious. This made me cry out loudly for Raboniel (#FuckMoashAndThenHisCorpse)
I suspected the deadeye from the market might be connected to Shallan somehow, but I still found the full reveal horribly sad. Of Shallan's 3 murders, only one was pre-determined and two were in self-defense.
Testament was different. She blocked the memory initially because it was connected to her mother's death, and I can understand Shallan giving it new context after Not Hurting Your Spren became sort of THE identity of the modern Radiants. They made that the thing that defines them as different from/better than the old Radiants. It makes complete sense that Shallan would internalize that in a big way. Of course she would start to think that if the others found out she killed a spren they would reject her! Having seen what a deadeye was like and how strongly the spren feel about it in 'Oathbringer', she would feel even worse and push it down even further during the year between.
What I wonder is, was it Testament she used to kill Tyn and loaned to Kaladin in the chasms? Or was that Pattern *pretending* to be a normal Shardblade?
Different point...I think Adolin is still figuring out who he is. He spent his whole life up until pretty much now being seen as extension of his father, and now he has a chance to really define himself for the first time. He's not a Radiant, though Dalinar wants him to be. He's a regular duelist in a world where, as he says, that's becoming less important and useful. So he's trying to figure out how to be helpful and doesn't quite know how to do it yet.
The timeline of Testament really fascinates me! Makes me want to reread so soon!
Rysn is allowed to tell (and how much) other people as long as it is approved by the Sleepless. Also, she was talking to Vstim, who she considers her master and father figure so it makes total sense that she would want some/any consultation or advice she can get from him.
I wouldn’t have thought the sleepless would’ve been okay with that
I really enjoyed both aspects of the book. I think The Urutheru part will excite those looking forward and wanting to know what will happen (with the learning of the different lights and developing new weapons) and those who want more back story and lore will really enjoy the trial. (We finally learn about the Recreance, a smidgen about the Heralds, and the Ghostbloods/ wider cosmere/ worldhopping. I personally enjoy the Shallans back story too, but I can see how its not for everyone.)
Edit: sorry for the really long comment. I tried to keep it concise but failed.
I'm really surprised that you thought this was the weakest part! I thought that this part was a real page turner. The Navani and Raboniel storyline is so incredible and the interactions between Pattern and Shallan hit me super hard. I'm definitely with you on loving Raboniel. I don't think the reveal that Shallan had another spren in the past was meant to be this giant surprise, but rather, another piece to her puzzle, building towards the big moment as Formless. This whole book has been her mental health coming to a head and it's been this predicament of will she heal or further sink into Formless. I think this section showed her mental health struggles beautifully and that healing can be really messy. Wit was a complete gem in chapter 80 as always. I have a collection of Wit quotes written down from throughout the series. He always knows the perfect thing to say. I completely agree with what you said about the Adolin/Maya stuff. I wanted more. I was actually enjoying Adolin because of the Maya stuff. I'll be excited to learn more about the deadeyes. Lirin is so friggin hateable, omg. Chapter 97 was the most incredible and left off on such a cliffhanger omfg. With 150ish pages left, I can safely say, this is my favorite Stormlight book so far.
Really enjoying the chat videos as everyone I know that's ready RoW is taking their sweet sweet time lol.
Also kind of spoiler for dawn shard...
It was agreed that she could share her secret with a select, approved few so the Rysn chapter made sense to me.
I agree that the Shadesmar plotline resolved conveniently. We took so much time away from them, then we return for 3-4 chapters to finish it off and not go back to them for so long in the book too.
Just finished part 4, I felt the same about the scene with Wit and Kaladin. I made a character tier list when Allen from the Library of Allenxandria asked about favourite characters on his community tab, but totally forgot about Wit. Top tier for me now :) I laughed so hard when Kaladin finally understood that he is the dog 😄
Also their dynamic reminded me a little bit of Gerald and Jaskier, I imagine a scene where Gerald would ask him for a story. Jaskier would be so happy and bring that up their whole lives afterwards: "But that one time you asked me for a story" :D
I just want to say in Adolin's defense, he said he would stand trial on his own actions not those of all humainy. He thought he could persuade them based off his own character.
The line from the spren before that statement of his doesn’t mention ancestors. He’s the one that brings it up.
The part where you spoke about Dalinar and his insistent and failed attempts at emulsion, actually made a lot of sense to me, since it exposed a lot of aspects of the Alethi, their Vorin church and his own reputation as a ruthless warlord being an impediment.
A parallel can be drawn with Muhammed or Jesus. He was proclaiming religious herecy, proclaiming their god was dead and everything they believed in was folly while also having prophetic visions and whatnot. All of those moments reaffirm just how hard it is to bring about any kind of revolution. I'm surprised people missed the parallel here.
The one that found Axindweth is most likely the palace steward we see in the Prologue/the guy Mraize kills in Lift’s interlude
Remember the Red chicken that is now with lift.. the last master of that ( pegion) had jewelry marks, when lift inspected the body she said it was a old soldier and had been wearing jewelry and then Mraize killed him..... that guy fits the description of someone else like her.....
Haha, why is he already dead?!?
@@ebnovels to prove that there are people from schadrial who oppose the ghoste bloods ......
I mean why not just have the character oppose them without being killed?
@@ebnovels Lord Brandon has his reasons..... 🙇♂️🙇♂️
Tho....... Idk thats just wat i took out of that... may be his death calls out a stronger response from the opposition....
@@ebnovels we also see him in the prologue, and in a flashback...he's the 'house steward'. I think he's been opposing them for a while and he probably works for someone directly opposing the Ghostbloods (my guess is the big guy on Scadrial)
I just finished RoW, started it recently even though I pre-ordered it way back when. I love going through these spoiler chats for each section. I agree with everything you have to say with Kaladin. I just think it's funny how you dislike Adolin. I love Adolin, too, even though his treatment of Kaladin pre-duel in WoR was annoying (very snobby, like the way Shallan treated Kaladin too). But I'm all in for the bromance.
Agree too that it should've been Eshonai alive with an honorspren...Venli definitely seems to be the most passive protagonist. I do love Timbr so much. So cute.
The flashbacks work way better when it's about the characters inner turmoil and the origin of the person they and now. Venlis flashbacks started off so well with her family dynamics but then when that spren Ulim comes it just negates everything interesting about her character. Is it not more compelling that she caused the desolation due to her finding a way to heal her mother rather than an outside force manipulating her ambition.
I'm starting to feel like the consensus is: Oathbringer's Dalinar's flashbacks were more interesting and palatable than RoW's Venli/Eshonai's ones.
and it's a bit perplexing to me personally because although the parshendi flashbacks weren't as super duper engaging as say Navani's chapters (which were the absolute peak of this book), reading Dalinar's flashbacks in Oathbringer was near torture to me because I could smell from a mile how they will play out and my experience while reading boiled down to boredom from the predictability and the wish to finally get it over with.
Dalinar's final confrontation in the present time was amazing, but only a reread of the book will tell me if the cost of those flashbacks was really worth it.
that being said, I can't remember how long those flashback chapters were and how that factored in in both cases.
Kalek is Restares and Restares was the one who ordered Amaram to kill all of Kaladins remaining squad and steal and blade and shards. And yet he's a Herald who let himself be tortured for millennia for humanity until he broke. I have no idea how to feel about this guy
Response 2: I totally understand where you're coming from in regards to the Listener backstories here, but I loved them. Also, Jaxlim's decent into dimentia made me cry at each further step downward. I wish I could say more, but alas it must wait for part 5.
I see this mentioned in other comments, but I think the deal with Shallan is less as to whether her loved ones will accept her and more if she can confront her fears. For us the readers, there’s no question as to whether Shallan’s loved ones will accept her. Of course they will. But Shallan’s arc is partially to stop lying to herself, and mostly learning that she deserves to be loved, like everyone should. Shallan kind of hates who she is underneath all of the lies (even if the lies hold a piece of truth in them, mmmmm), and her arc is both accepting who she is, and to stop believing that she is undeserving of the love of her friends and family. I’ve known some people who’ve gone through similar issues, so it’s good to see some big mental health rep in this book around the board.
12:55 Spoilers.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
In the interlude it mentioned a man wearing a lot of rings. Also, in the previous Lift interlude when she takes the red "chicken" it leads her to a man who has all of his rings removed from his dead body. It's likely this is the person they are referring to, and yes, likely they are both Feruchemists.
Someone else mentioned this-I wish we could’ve seen more of that person.
I really like how the trial felt a lot like modern press conferences with people just shouting accusations. Nice touch
Shallan is easily my least favorite of all the main POV characters. She’s such a selfish brat. She will do something that makes me like her for a minute and then turn around and be awful again. She is so mean to Pattern in Part 4. Bless his heart. She’s so traumatized by the knowledge that she killed her first spren, but treats her current spren like trash. She had better apologize and be nice to him going forward. Also hated her when she locked Radiant up in her mind. The three of them have a pact: when 2 vote against 1, the 2 votes win. Since Veil and Radiant often disagree, Shallan is often the tie-breaker so things always go Shallan’s way. The second Veil and Radiant agree and Shallan is outvoted, Shallan locks one of them up and just does what she wants anyway, violating their pact. What a little B.
Adolin is perfect for Shallan but she’s right, she doesn’t deserve him. He does so much for her and is so caring and patient and understanding, yet she often neglects him.
When I noticed that book three excluded Shallan and Adolin I screamed in frustration.
Woahhhh. I'm kinda amazed by how much our thoughts align. You basically said aloud all my thoughts about this part of the book. Almost uncanny haha 😂
Haha, well there are lots of different opinions in the comments if you need some flavor! 😂
So who do you hate more, lirin or adolin? 😛
Part 4 was my fav! I do wish the shadesmar plot line had been expanded and some moved to part 3 since part 3 was so slow for me. We didnt see shallan reveal her secrets to adolin, we could've gotten more time with Formless.
I love raboniel and navani!
Who is that lady from Mistborn???
Raboniel is such a good villain. Omg!
I didn't realize it was imposter syndrome, but now I know why I like navani so much!
Szeth Backstory - Can't wait 😭
Adolin shallan not being in part -3... Absolutely fine 👍
Second Spren secret hit me hard but I agree that shallan killing her parents was a bigger deal 🥺
About we needing more information about Heralds for better impacts.. can't agree more 🙏
"A Dog and The Dragons" is Sanderson's favourite chapter from this book.. I can see why 😀
I think Shallan got the memory of killing ialai not from absorbing Veil but because Radiant told her that.. IDK
Last chapter of this part total 💔 and a dreadful discovery..
I like this part quite a lot but part 5 is obviously my favourite
Ya lol.... same here didn't hit hard......
Tbh that reveal in oathbringer was something i had already predicted that ......
Same :)
She gets that memory back because that's what she had repressed *before* Radiant took over and killed Ialai so that Shallan wouldn't. Like, that memory is why Radiant knew that she had to take over. The line in part 1 is something like, "Shallan reached into her satchel, but Radiant's hand came out."
I think it'd be worse to shallan to have killed her Soren because like. Her parents were terrible to her whereas the spren just come and try to love and support you. Like shallans parents were just her abusers so I can see her caring more for the spren
Am I alone in that RoW is turning out to be up there with Words of Radiance for me? It’s so personal and emotional, and I’m freaking eating this book up
Can I just say I really love Kalak's character? He acts so carefree and nonchalant despite being so paranoid after thousands of years of torture. Granted, he did told Amaram to take Kaladin's shards after he won them in the Alethkar border skirmishes, but he never told Amaram to enslave Kaladin. Kalak is my favorite Herald at this point.
I thought the whole Shallan story was leading up to her being recruited as a child to the Ghostbloods and the trauma of being manipulated and psychologically abused as a child to become their “knife” was what initially pushed her into escaping into different versions of herself. It would have made sense that when she cast away her spren and was no longer useful to the organization, they moved on to her brother.
well, on that dalinar part at the end, I think it's just part of his character to try to convince people to follow him. His oath is to unite after all, so it's kinda what he does
I think the thing with the needle memory was that Veil was the one planning to kill Ialai but she got outvoted? So she decided not to, but she had planned for it. And then Radiant made the decision to do it in the moment? I'm not entirely sure without looking at the book again, but I remember being confused about that too and that's just how it made sense to me.
I bet Adolin's a ha moment about his own culture and privilege will line up with his radiant ideal when Maya returns next book!
I understand that the fact that Shallan had killed her spreen affected her as a radiant. Her question however is more profound, she is afraid of not being accepted, she is afraid of repeating the same mistakes and hurting those she loves. That's why she wants to find an easier way out, she wants to have somewhere to escape. It doesn't seem like much to anyone from the outside, but it is very important to her, and the fear of losing someone we love is one of the worst fears that exist because it isolates us from everyone.I don't know if anyone has already spoken but from what I understand Shallan recovers his memory by absorbing Veil because it was Veil's job to hide Shallan's painful memories. even the things that she or Radiant made. Sorry for commenting a long time later. I'm reading Rhythm of war right now 🤓
My father died shortly before I read this book, so I understand what it’s like to lose someone, and I’m definitely fearful of losing other people I love. I still feel personally-though I normally really appreciate Sanderson’s portrayal of mental health-that he used Shallan’s mental health as a means to execute a plot twist in this book that ultimately imo came across a little lazy.
I think the Shallan part was important because she didn't remember killing her parents. She knew that she had killed them. I think that difference is very important and I think is what it was trying to convey.
It's like her knowledge was 2nd hand before. Hope that makes sense.
I thought it was a pretty big deal about the first spren. She broke an oath and to her that might make her a traitor to people she loves. But she was young when it happened, she couldn’t understand the full consequences of her actions.
About Veil giving back a memory of something Radiant did.. We know Veil was the Protector for Shallan and I believe People who hve the disorder Shallan has often have at least one alters who is basically the keeper for memories. So i think Veil kinda had all the bad memories which she kept to protect Shallan, regardless of who physically did something.
Yeah, Veil's what I think is termed a trauma keeper/holder. Radiant has access to the memories as well, but she's more for doing things that Shallan feels unable or unsuited to do normally.
Hey why does Kaladin keep his forehead glyphs? ...
.
.
.
Because it's so on brand
Regarding the memory of killing Ielai (spelling? I'm an audiobook listener), it's possible that Veil and Radiant were co-con, or both conscious at the time while Shallan was dissociating.
just thought i would love liron to meet witt, maybe hell keep his passive approach to life quiet
I thought the second spren plot encapsulates kind the problem with stormlight. It repeats itself a lot. Instead of coming up with various things that shallan could be hiding from herself it's always she killed someone. Kaladin is also one note too, I have to protect people, when he could have way more problems.
I think you misunderstood that Shallan's memory part. Shallan is going to kill Ialai. In order to save shallan from doing it Radiant steps in does it. So that shallan doesn't have to go through it.
I bet though that Adolin won’t ever become a Radiant. He’s Han Solo. Like he seriously is, with a different personality of course lol
31:30 The needle was prepared by Shallan in advance. The murder was done by Radiant. So technically it is possible. But I do find it weird that Radiant would kill Ialai, given that she was the one who was originally against it. Seems a bit out of character to me.
The alters exist largely to protect Shallan. Radiant killed Ialai to prevent Shallan from doing it, because Shallan would have been further broken by doing it but kinda-thought it was necessary and she had to be ruthless, etc. Or that's what I got...