Reunion • S02E10 • TPN’s Angel Guide
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2021
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Passion of the Nerd reviews Reunion. From Angel, Season 2, Episode 10. Written by Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan. Directed by James A. Contner. Starring David Boreanaz as Angel. Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia Chase. Alexis Denisof as Wesley Wyndam-Pryce. And J. August Richards as Charles Gunn. And Julie Benz as Darla.
#angeltheseries #davidboreanaz #TimMinear #DougPetrie 
Развлечения
Angel just didn't want to admit to Xander that he'd never bothered to learn CPR during his century of brooding.
Look everybody. The whole “no breath” thing means that Angel didn’t have LIVING breath to give. Because he’s undead, a vampire. He could do CPR but it wouldn’t give oxygen, or life-giving breath. It makes perfect sense.
artman2oo3
So instead of being dead, are you saying that vampires have some sort of super metabolism that removes all the oxygen from the air they breath?
@@artman2oo3 wouldn't that make him better at it though? When we breathe we convert most of the oxygen in the air to carbon dioxide through respiration, so the breath we breathe out is less useful than the air we breathed in. Angel, theoretically, wouldn't do that. Meaning he could perform the mechanics of cpr while theoretically giving her more oxygen.
Done. Solved. Canon 🤣
Exactly
"And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care" Probably a top 5 Angel quote, if not top 3 for me. Just...chilling
Mine has still gotta be his post-coital speech to Buffy. "A dulcet choir of tweeting little birdies?!"
@@rowynnecrowley1689
Is that as Angelus?
@@meris8486 well obviously. Angel is too broody to quip like that.
@@theoriginalsuzycat
I treat Angelus and Angel as separate entities though
Mines always been "can you pick out the one word there you probably shouldn't have said"
The Champion Counter, something I didn't think I needed till now
@@ItsMeBarnaby agreed. I’m really hoping for an explanation soon.
Yaaaas
Ah, yes, the "Bring Angel down" - plan, or B.A.D. plan for short.
LMAO never even noticed this.
Angel never learned to do CPR, but he didn't want to admit that to XANDER, so he made a mystical excuse.
This headcanon is elite. Angel in the midst of a life or death crisis being too much of a dork to admit he doesn't know something? Totally tracks.
“Resentment and hatred are still a burden that commemorates the abuser. A weight around the neck that maintains their continuing power over their abused.” - that is a fantastic quote. Thank you! I’ve been trying to put this thought into words for a long time.
That quote made me pause the video - it hit closer to home than I expected.
I had to give up those feelings in order to move on. It would do others good to learn that lesson as well.
Finally someone is standing up for Willard. He was the best character on the show. Justice for Willard.
Drusilla's quiet "Daddy?" has always stuck with me. I think of it whenever I see Drusilla even on repeat watches of episodes before this one. Very powerful episode.
"It's never Daddy."
"It's the Angel-beast." I always felt calling him that was a foreshadow to the end of season 2, in Pylea.
Drusilla's basically Angelus's abused daughter. Because where Angel feels guilt for what Angelus did to Drusilla Angelus mocks the insanity he himself drove her to by not only killing her family but convincing her that she was doomed to be evil before turning her. Angelus having sex with Drusilla mostly to spite Spike in Buffy Season 2 is pseudo incest as well.
"Eyes like needles."
Gunn: OK, I'm still trying to get this family tree straight. Darla sired Angel.
Wesley: Correct.
Gunn: And Angel sired this Drusilla...
Wesley: Back when he and Darla were together, yes.
Gunn: But before Angel got his soul back, right?
Wesley: Certainly.
Gunn: Now, these lawyers, they brought Darla back as human. Now, this Drusilla vamp goes and bites Darla?
Wesley: So it would seem.
Gunn Making her a vampire again.
Wesley: That's the cosmological upshot, yes. Darla's human self has died and sometime before dawn, unless Angel can stop it she will rise again, a soulless demon.
Gunn: So that means...
Wesley: The clock is ticking.
Gunn: Naw naw. What I'm saying is that means the granddaughter remade the grandmother.
Wesley: Oh...yes.
Gunn: Man, somehow that weirds me out more than the whole blood sucking thing.
It makes perfect sense to involve Dru because it twists the knife on Angel. A random vampire would be one thing, but to have Darla taken from him at the hands of something he created adds to his own guilt and culpability. The way he sees things, it's essentially the same as if he turned Darla.
"And yet I just can't seem to care."
I knew it was an echo, but I always forgot that this was the episode Holland said it.
23:48 "We'll talk about this more when we get to the episode, Epiphany"
See you guys in 2023.
Hello from 2023! You were bang on in your timeframe!
When the discussion of Angel's ethics came up, I thought about the first season of The Good Place. Eleanor tries to get more points to stay in the good place, but it doesn't work because her motivation is corrupt. That's the issue with Angel's choice in the episode. He didn't abandon the lawyers because it was an ethical choice which prevented potential death and harm. He closed the door on them out of spite. That's the recurring thread with Angel. As an addict he tries to be a better person. He tries to take the high road, but he is constantly cut down by morally bankrupt people or by people who give into their worst impulses. It happened in 'Blind Date' and 'Are you now or have you ever been.' If I was Dru in this scene I would said Anayanka instead of Angelus. To me Angel's chose a vengence demon's version of justice. He chose retribution over mercy. After all what is the point of pursuing justice in a cold and unjust universe?
I've always seen Angel's fall as self-defined.
He set the limits for what makes him a champion/hero, chief among them being to avoid unecessary bloodshed.
The moment he closes the door is him turning his back on his own morals and willingly embracing everything he opposes. Becoming the Dark to fight it.
I don't think it's that clear cut. He's shown as far back as the pilot that he's willing to kill legitimate threats/evil doers and at least most of the W & H crew clearly qualifies by that standard.
I see it also as Angel throwing Holland's words into his face. The guy who spent a year ruining his life and now bringing back Darla to rob her of her soul again just to hurt Angel, using people as pawns, manipulating and hurting without concern for wellbeing... Angel didn't kill them or hurt them. He merely stepped away and let them face their own consequences. If he hadn't shown up, it still would've happened.
But Angel chose to lock the door. He kept them from escaping those consequences.
And he walked away from his mission, abandoned it, and chose revenge instead. Because his mission would have had him save the people who he despises, the very people who stand in the way of getting what he wants.
What he wants.
So it's basically a selfish choice. The Powers That Be did not help him in the Trial (of course he doesn't know what lies in store with Connor). So he helps himself.
His mission would have him not get what he wants, again, and not doing it would give him what he wants, finally.
The Shanshu prophecy gave him hope. They took it from him. It's a dangerous thing, wanting something. Angel finally had enough of the universe screwing him over to breaking point. He's done playing by other people's rules. So of course he disbands the crew. Not because he feels guilty, but because he's done trying, he gives up.
I love this arc. He gives up, reaches rock bottom and then finds meaning again, purpose, in why he does what he does, to help people not to gain something, but to do good for good's sake. In 2x01 they tear down the scoreboard, but he doesn't get the meaning of it until later.
I never found Angel's actions in this episode questionable from a narrative standpoint. He's been sliding that way slowly thanks to the lawfirm's actions. This episode was just the breaking point.
My theory has always been that vampires don’t technically need to breathe, but they just do it out of old habit from when they were humans.
That's what Edward tells Bella in _Twlight_ (the book).
Still doesn't explain why he can't perform CPR. CPR doesn't work because the person performing needs air themselves. It works because their is still a bit of oxygen in the air we exhale.
If Angel's body isn't metabolising oxygen the way a living body should, then he's basically an A/C or a ventilator, sucking in oxygenated air and blowing out oxygenated air. He should have even _more_ oxygen for Buffy because his body isn't producing carbon dioxide.
@@FadzaiSimango cause Angel is a lazy fuck hahaha
@@FadzaiSimango That is assuming that Angel knows this, remember that he was brought up in the early 1700:s and probably think that CPR is some form of new magic that requires humans to breath their life force down the throat to resurrect people.
My "Angel has no breath" canon is that the breath is missing like, the humanity or the soulfulness that would allow him to use it to bring Buffy back to life. Like, yeah, they breathe and pant and talk and blow recent-victim's cigarette smoke but they can't use their breath to revive a person. Contrived but consistent. Works for me.
For me, its a lack of oxygen. They can breath, gasp, pant and smoke, but they aren't actually taking in or expelling oxygen since they don't need to. They likely don't even need to breath and just do it to fool humans. It's like eating, drinking coffee or smoking. They no longer need to do it, but they can choose to if they wish.
@@icemanlj2k7 To me, their breath is muscle memory. Kinda. It's Reflex. It would be a decision NOT no breathe. It's wired in our brains to do so. "having no breath" to revive Buffy remains a headscratcher though.
My headcanon for that line in Prophecy Girl was that Angel didn't know how to perform CPR and, out of guilt for not being able to save Buffy, lied.
@@jamie7398 People do weird things when they're stressed
Can we just agree it's a ret con and move on lmao
He mentions that he doesn’t breathe at other points in both shows, though…I think it’s in the Best Not Thought about box along with ‘do vampires er…use the facilities’ and ‘exactly how do they get erections, though?’
@@jamie7398 I’ve always headcannoned that as Spike pretending to be out of breath because he thinks the Scoobies are idiots 🤣 but IIRC, Angel is clearly breathing heavily when he runs to tell the gang Willow’s a vampire and then there’s Spike choking Dru out in Becoming so…uh yeah…best not to dwell on it
I've always headcanoned that Angel doesn't understand how CPR works, since his knowledge of medicine is likely stuck in the 1700s at that point. Spoilers for Epiphany: I mean this is the same guy who thought the best way to treat a drug overdose was to give his friend a cold shower. Somebody explain to Angel that you don't need functioning alveoli to perform CPR.
I love how simultaneously, “I just seem to care” is simultaneously one of Angel’s most human & inhuman moments.
…What? I’d let them reap what they sowed too. Not like he killed them, he just let them die. Bortles!
It never occurred to Holland that he was just as expendable as everyone else to the senior partners.
I think the main issue with W&H's plan, besides the vagueness of it, is that they largely dropped the arc when they went to Pylea and never really picked it back up until "Home". The question I have is why the senior partners wanted him dark so badly. I realize that he's destined to play a major role in some far off apocalypse but that still seems like a lot of work for an outcome that wouldn't guarantee what side he'd ultimately be on.
better to have a maybe evil Angel in the apocalypse than a surely good Angel..?
Spoilers for season 5!
Could it be that Holland wanted Angel to head up W&H a couple of years earlier than what actually ended up happening? That’s my best guess.
@@_jolie_ Wouldn't a dead Angel give them a better chance to succeed?
@@yodamcyoda It's a good theory but I'm not entirely sure Holland was privy to the full scope of the plan.
@@kamui003 I'm pretty sure W&H are among those who think you cannot avoid a prophecy, so killing Angel won't work. Having Angel be on the side of evil, however, is allowed for by the prophecy and hence that's what they'll try...
everytime I watch this episode i think back to the moment in amends where angel explains that "it isn't the demon that needs fighting, it's the man". i think this episode forced that moment open and showed two sets of morally grey soulded "men" fighting against two monsters. Angel doesn't choose to let dru and darla feed because he wants to join (as his monster would) but because he hates them, a very relatable, human problem. Holland and angel are paralled in this episode with the line "i just can;t seem to care", and I think more than anything this episode is about the downfalls of souled beings bringing their own demise. the wolfram and hart gang brings the demise by igniting this plan in the first place, and angel by walking away from his gained morality. I'm always stunned that ATS went there with this episode, and, kind of like buffy season 6, I find it a beautiful exploration of chaos I can't look away from but somehow doesn;t fall into meloncholy or melodrama
*spoilers for the whole show*
So I have some thoughts about Wolfram & Hart’s plans regarding Angel and how they, at least to me, work thematically to make the show a masterpiece.
It’s been stated since the Shanshu Prophecy was revealed that Angel is supposed to play a major role in the apocalypse, but nobody knows precisely what that role is or who’s side he will be on.
My take on Wolfram & Hart is that people like Holland are never given the full picture by the people, demons, or inter-dimensional beings above them. Holland is told, “we need Angel’s ties to humanity to be severed, we need him thirsting for vengeance, we need him as aggravated as you can possibly make him so that he’s less likely to be a champion for good, come the apocalypse.”
But we also know from later seasons that “the apocalypse” isn’t really the long term goal for the majority of the firm’s staff. They are perpetuating the status quo, keeping things going as they are, which is a pretty hefty criticism of capitalism and industrialism that I personally agree with. There is no need for an all-out, world ending apocalypse if the world itself is living hell.
This may seem to contradict the mission statement given to Holland, but I think it’s purposefully inconsistent. No one knows the future, even the senior partners. So they are keeping the wheels of the world greased with blood, feeding the slow-motion apocalypse of daily life - but all the while hedging their bets about this prophesied “Apocalypse” apocalypse in which Angel will supposedly take part.
This is where I find the show to be absolutely brilliant. By putting Angel in a position of power, showing him just how hopelessly corrupt and infected the world at large is, and by targeting his friends as pawns in keeping him on “their side” of the chess board, the senior partners actually placed Angel in a position where he could choose to bring about this Apocalypse himself. As he says, he wants to bring the whole thing to a screeching halt, even if for just a second, if only to show them that they don’t own him.
So at the end of the day, Angel did play a major role in the “Apocalypse”, he caused it himself. Which side was he on? Did he do exactly what was prophesied for him, is he an agent of evil regardless of his motivations? Many, many people will have died as the result of his actions.
But maintaining the status quo, doing Wolfram & Hart’s work for them, would surely result in a cumulatively equal amount of evil in the world. Is Angel a hero for bringing a momentary end to the veneer of normalcy, revealing the world as the hell on earth it truly already was?
That is the overall theme of the show to me: choice. Angel was allowed to choose his path, and we may choose to see it in whatever way we will, but the truth is life on earth was always going to end the way it was maintained- in blood.
i really like this perspective.
I feel like you're the only one who understood that exploration of the apocalypse, at least on this comment section. It's too complex for its target audience, for sure. Most people willing to look deeper into things and put in the brain work probably never thought an action-packed, vampire detective show on the Fox network would go there
Good take.
For me the plan is the "Vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the Apocalypse." That means they know a vampire with a soul will play a part in their (Wolf, Ram & Hart) fate, so what they need to do is make sure he is corrupted so he will more likely be on their side. Kill him, well who knows if some other vampire with a soul would shows up they don't know about?
Also, as high ranking a Holland is, he's still expendable to Wolfram & Hart. They plan was probably to get Angel to be dark, but him letting Darla & Dru kill everyone, well it works better than expected (for the senior partners).
What is going on is a chess game between the senior partners & The Powers That Be to make sure Angel is on their side for the Apocalypse (hence why they let Angel into Kate's place without an invite).
Exactly. It's very clearly established that the Senior Partners do not share their master plan with any of their employees, let alone involve them in it.
I love the symmetry of the color of Darla's dress. It reminds me a lot of Buffy's dress in Prophecy Girl and it's also the antithesis of Drusilla's dress in What's My Line Pt 2. I hope I'm not talking out of pocket with these connections
“And they have a plan…”
Wolfram & Hart are worse than the Cylons.
Lol
Brilliant! 👏👏👏
But still not as bad as 'The Light' from _Young Justice_
I jsut found Buffy and angel this year and I binged both shows in the span of three months(I’m a full time student) and it really has changed my life view. I’m know an existentialist myself! Anyways these shows are my favorite shows now, and your guides are some of my favorite as it feels like I’m discussing this show with friends(sadly no one in my generation gives the show a chance)
After you've watched each show a few more times, you'll realise you've gotten something different out of it each time. Welcome!
@@Brandyalla oh yeah. I’ve seen both twice now
🤔 What generation do you belong to, if you don't mind me asking?
If you're a student, you probably aren't much younger than me, and a fair amount of people my age are fans of Buffy 🙂
@@FadzaiSimango I’m in highschool right now and it’s impossible to convince people to watch it
@@hughcafritz3997 Ah, sorry. I interpreted "student" as "university/college student" 😅
It's a pity that your peers can't appreciate Buffy. But maybe give it time; in a few years 1990s nostalgia is going to hit society and then everyone will be delving into the pop culture from that last leg of the 20th century. As you know, Buffy starts off _suuuuper_ '90s, so people may actually be keen to have a look at it then.
Holland subscribes to the Dutch van der Linde school of having plans; insisting that you have one which will be set in motion as soon as the next prerequisite is fulfilled
22:32 You did the thing. You did the thing!
[Context: I used a GIF of this scene to reply to Ian and he said he'd use it and I was excited that I helped]
Amazing analysis
Everytime you bring a new dimension to the show
Those parts like the toxic family vs chosen family always hit home with us, but only on a subconscious level
You vocalize them beautifully
14:25.
The problem with going back in time and killing Baby Hitler is that you won't be known as the guy who killed Baby Hitler, you'll just be some guy who killed a baby.
There's also the issue of destroying our existing timeline for something that may or may not be better.
@@defrostedrobot77 tbh it's impossible to go back in time and do anything except something that produces the timeline we currently live in.
What I find amusing about that decades old hypothetical question is that almost no one says that they would just make sure Hitler would stay in art school. The only time ove heard someone suggest that was when the Reverse Flash taunted Barry Allen about it in Flashpoint Paradox.
@@void_4871 How could you possibly know that?
@@ChristmasPterodactyl how would anything else be possible?
What blows me away about Reunion is that its NOT the SLAM DUNK of the Angel/Holland battle you assume it is on first watch through. I remember the first time I watched this. When Angel throws Hollands "and yet somehow, I just can't seem to care." line back in his face, and lets him suffer the consequences of his evil actions, while I was stunned, I was also stoked that Angel finally got one over on Holland/Wolfram & Hart..... you wanted Evil Angel, well ya got him!
I had no idea that just 5 episodes later, Holland would DESTROY Angels entire world in 1 scene in an elevator. Honestly, the season long arcs at play in Season 2 are incredible. If it didn't have a few real stinkers in the middle (Happy Anniversary/Thin Dead Line), and a kind of weird mini arc tacked on at the end, it would be the best season of the show, by a mile.
Based on the skid marks, that road must have had a "J-turn zone" sign on it.
4:23 This is my favorite WTF moment! It's just one of those things where once you've seen it you can't unsee it. It just cracks me up every time.
I always thought the plan was what was revealed on Reprise. That they don’t really have an end goal or win they are trying to get to, just trying to corrupt and take as many good people down as possible. And with angel, he has the capacity to do some really great good but also some really evil evil, so they’d rather have him bad or evil to cause more suffering. I never thought there was some great end plan, just the continual grind towards evil.
Honestly I think they don't even need Angel to do any evil... they just want him out of the way, not trying to stop their own evil.
I always took “I have no breath” to mean “I have no animus.” A dead thing cannot give life, that sorta thing. Just in case my headcanon helps :)
That'd probably be the best explanation. And then CPR is really just humans performing rudimentary magic because our breath has magical, life-force-like qualities to it.
🤔 But then ... how do hospital ventilators work? They aren't alive either and yet they literally breathe for people who can't do it on their own.
@@FadzaiSimango We have to remember that Angels understanding of things like CPR comes from the 1700:s so he probably still believe that the human breath contains a life force element.
@@Henrik_Holst Interesting theory 🤔 I'd have assumed that Angel was up to date on how modern society functions (considering he's been there through all of these developments) but I guess pre-Whistler, ensouled Angel lived apart from humanity. So he may well have missed the chance to learn things like that 😅
@@FadzaiSimango IMHO all the vampires in BuffyVerse are incredible conservative and are somewhat stuck in development as they where then they died / where sired.
That's e.g why Angel refuses to use his cellphone that Cordy gave him.
@@Henrik_Holst Angel can still use that cellphone. And drive a car, and watch tv, etc. He's pretty well adapted. And he understands enough about human biology to know that the human breath isn't magical. Seriously.
SPOILERS FOR THE NEXT SIX EPISODES ALTHOUGH THE VIDEO HAS VAUGUE MENTIONS ALSO, SO DON'T CRUCIFY THE WARNING PLEASE
I've heard interviews with writers saying they were going to draw the "Angel going dark" story out before they realized he was already dark, thus resulting in Angel locking up the lawyers with Darla and Drusilla.
Gunn: "The granddaughter re-made the grandmother."
Drusilla to Darla in the episode _Darla:_ "I could be your mummy."
Great foreshadowing.
Angel referencing Angelus as himself shows another level to his guilt.
Vampires breathing is one of the few times I go outside of being a Watsonian and into being a temporary Doylist. Vampires don't have to breath, but actors do, acting or no. Its one of those things that I've always been able to ignore in-universe for the out-of-universe reason.
I find it interesting that Darla, at first, as a soulless creature, was upset with Drusilla for being turned again. But what Ian said about it made sense.
TV special effects in general are always a bit dodgy. The budget just doesn't stand up to what they want them to do, then or now, so fans are lucky they are as good as they are.
I love the Angel and Lindsay comparison with being cut off and death.
Angel going dark before and now doing so again actually goes against the idea that writers cannot redo storylines. They just have to be creative to make it work, and this worked.
I agree that most AtS episodes between this one and _Reprise_ seem almost unneeded. I like that Angel takes time "after the fall" to get back up again, but I wish the in-between had been as interesting instead of filler boring-ness, arc-wise.
I don't think Holland getting eaten was the plan. The replacements characters of whomever dies have been told by their bosses that it was the plan, though. Ultimately, no one knows the plan or has a design, probably not even the senior partners. Everyone at W&H seems to be trying to guide prophecy instead of letting prophecy play itself out naturally, and in the end that dooms their employees. In short, Holland, nor anyone else, actually has a plan. They just put on a show to make it seem they do, and Angel continues to have free will to close those basement doors. I think that idea fits in perfectly with Angel learning what he does in the elevator _Epiphany_ reveal.
I think it had to be Drusilla to turn Darla because she is the only tie close to Darla and Angel (as Angel wouldn't have cared about Spike or he would have called Angel on his darkness and bull$%^&) and Darla is a personal connection to Angel. Not just because she "made" him, but because he killed her back in S1 of BtVS. It wasn't a coincidence that we didn't see Angel for three episodes after Darla's death in BtVS. He feels guilty. Drusilla turning Darla will make it all the worse due to the guilt over what Angel did to Drusilla, so the metaphorical back breaks when Angel closes those basement doors and he answers the "siren call."
@The Reverse SPOILERS THROUGH _REPRISE_
I don't mind the climax when I feel Angel has a Dark Angel moment again by burning Darla and Drusilla, but the lead up feels like just more Darla obsessed Angel moments again. Not the Dark Angel I was looking for after he locked humans up with Darla and Drusilla. He slides even further back into broody instead of Dark Angel once Darla disappears to recover and Drusilla leaves town the leave after _Redefinition,_ and doesn't seems to get dark again until Darla appears in _Reprise._
It didn't seem like there was any scenario where Angel would save them. The PTB's own trolley problem seemed to be that either they let all the lawyers become snacks, or lose their champion by having him hold the lever in place to make sure all the lawyers became snacks. So, I guess what I'm saying here is, good luck getting Willard any justice?!
Yeah. Lorne more or less said it was going to happen either way. The PTB were just trying to ensure Angel wasnt there when it did.
I always thought the best vamp face was when Angel turns back into Liam (the episode they lose their memories). And he keeps vamping out over and over again, in shock.
“The trolley is on rails, Angel is not.”
Is he… going off the rails, then? 🥁
I read a few things differently.
To me the Shanshu is THE APOCOLYPSE, the inevitable coming of the end of the world in which the Senior Partners and PTB will go all out in a slug match, and the Vampire with a soul will play the deciding role in the battle. WR&H wanting to get Angel on their side for the battle and that's their goal. An ensouled Angel wouldnt fight for them, and Angelus wouldnt either, but maybe a Ensoulded Angelus would.
Secondly with Dru, not only is it poetic in a way to hurt Angel, but (maybe this is the Vampire the Masquarde nerd in me) I've always read Buffyverse vampires as being more powerful the closer they are to the old ones. Through The Master Darla was pretty close to the old ones, as was Angel, Dru and Spike. By having Dru resire Darla it keeps her on that power level relative to Spike.
That is something I never considered before, THE APOCOLYPSE, being a war between WR@H and The Powers , I like it. I do have one question though , What would be the difference between a ensouled Angelus and a ensouled Angel?
The Plan is something only the Wolf, The Ram and the Heart truly knows. They don't want the world to end by any means they want the world to end and they end up on top. That plan needs Angel to be on their side. The details are vague and unimportant to them and if one plan fails throw up another one, they have time.
I always did want more of Lindsay! I thought he was super cool!
I wanted more CHHHAARRRLLIIEEE!!!!!
I was having a very frustrating day.
My feelings on this episode are equally complicated.
Thanks for the laughs and the solidarity.
Yayyyy, I've been so excited for this one!
I'm so glad you brought up the family parallels, it's something that I think about all the time, especially with regards to (MILD SPOILER) Angel's relationship to a certain cave-dwelling physicist we've yet to meet versus his relationship with Drusilla and, even further back, his own sister.
To me, the vagueness of Wolfram & Hart's plan IS the point. Okay, admittedly from a purely narrative standpoint it's weird but thematically it makes sense to me. If evil in the Buffyverse is roughly parallel to our biggest fears, isn't the seed of fear the idea that the worst thing that can possibly happen or that we can possibly become is more powerful than us and therefore inevitable? Or, in the parlance of this channel, that there is only one choice and it is the worst one available. But it's still just fear. Wolfram & Hart's power is the IDEA that they have some grand and inevitable plan that is doomed to swallow Angel up, not the FACT of them actually having one. They're written as the embodiment of fear/evil, with some big, horrible plan we don't understand and can't overcome. And (SPOILER) we never learn if that plan is actually bigger and badder than us, but Team Angel continue to believe it isn't.
Gimme gimme, three of the best Angel episodes back to back
Five by five, you're welcome, reunion
@@jarenc2048
I meant that The Trial, Reunion and Redefinition are three of the best angel episodes back to back. Those are all amazing episodes though :)
I'd argue Reprise and Epiphany are both way better than Redefinition.... all good though. Season 2 has a lot of bangers!
@@KS-xk2so
I agree, but there are some weak episodes to get through before those.
having survived a couple decades in the bowels of a soulless corporation, I always looked at WR&H's approach to Angel as a strategy or a "playbook" or "blueprint" as we called it, and not a plan. A plan indicates the goal is to win. as Holland pointed out so well, they intend nothing so prosaic as winning.
I really like how Wolfram and Hart play the long game.
Just my opinion, but I do think W & H (specifically the Senior Partners) do have a clear plan, it's just that some of the people who think they're in on the con turn out to be one of the marks. It's a wheels within wheels kind of thing. I would say more, but can't without being super spoiler-y.
I always suspected that the PTBs were evil, but when they send Angel across town to save an idiot from himself when he had a chance of catching Dru and Darla before they killed anyone, they confirmed it.
Darla would have massacred them regardless because she wanted revenge and Angel was already in too dark of a place to want to help them.
kamui003
But without he vision, Angel might have caught up with D&D before they got anywhere near Holland's party, such as at the Panache Boutique, before they killed the staff there.
@@jamie7398 I wonder who's worse, the PTB or the Elders in 'Charmed', those are basically the PTB and Watcher's Council in one.
I'm thinking they're not evil, but they're not good guys either, they have their own goals and motivations, which just happens to be in conflict with that of Senior Partners, which is why they back the good guys, but in the stupidest ways possible considering what you just mentioned, as you're not wrong.
@@jamie7398 No kidding. Jasmine was a fallen PTB, but the PTB's handling of the Jasmine situation, or lack thereof, tells me everything I need to know about them. I've actually read Buffyverse/Charmed fanficiton crossovers where the PTB and Elders are the same, but are known by different names.
And the authors like them as much as I do, only time the Elders/PTB did anything good in these crossovers is they once sent Tara back to Willow as a Whitelighter, so those two got their happy ending.
I myself have an idea of a powerful magician from Marvel/DC like Strange or Fate giving the PTB and Elders a reality check, or have John Constantine trick them, since that's Constantine's thing.
I remember reading a Buffy comic once where Angelus struggles to breathe after being turned into a vampire for the first time: he's not used to no longer needing to breathe, so he panics and assumes he must be choking. While that obviously doesn't match up with his canon transformation, it does nicely explain away some - though obviously not all - of the moments where vampires clearly breathe, like Darla's rise in this episode. She's gotten used to breathing again and, still a bit confused about what's going on, thinks she's choking.
It feels like Wolfram and The Powers That Be are playing a long giant 7D chess game and we just saw a series of moves to get rid of a piece.
Like all the lawyers at W are pawn (literally) and rooks and bishops trying to capture a troublesome knight only to have them fall for a trap by a third player.
I love that in defeating the morality inside Angel, Holland sets up his own death indirectly. He faces the immediate consequences of breaking Angel down. Too good at his job.
Legit one of my favorite episodes of the series. This is one of those episodes that stayed with me long after the viewing.
Your ending gave me goosebumps! Amazing editing 🙌🙌🔥
I did some research and tracked down the script for this episode. For the curious, this is how the wine cellar gathering is described:
"INT. WINE CELLAR - NIGHT
This room must have cost a fortune. Stylish architecture. Ornate tables. Then there's the wine. Bottles and bottles of it in the various racks. A dozen WOLFRAM AND HART LAWYERS (including Lilah) stand, sipping wine, listening to Holland who addresses them from a raised stone ledge."
I don't really think they were intended to be much more than lawyers, but there seriously were still servants there, and of course, the script can only tell us so much -- what is on screen is still up for interpretation. I don't think it excuses Angel's actions either way. But shout out to this hilarious direction:
"And with that Angel closes and locks the two big oaken doors on all of them.
Stunned looks all around. Even from Darla and Dru, but they're stunned with delight. They share a "that was so cool!" look."
Heh.
Looking ahead to the rest of Season 2, when you get to Dead End, if you don't spend AT LEAST 20 to 30 minutes on the best part of the episode, CHHHAAARRLLIE!!!!, I'm rioting. In my head canon, he was the secret Big Bad pulling the Senior Partners strings all along.
I like how you can see the skid marks on the road from the previous J turns while shooting.
Beautiful editing on this one, bravo!!!
Angel, vampire Dexter?
Also, him shutting the door makes me think of that saying a hero let's one(or a small room) dies to save the world, a villain saves one and let's the world die.
Edit: Holland totally has a Caesar cut, not a bowl cut
Julie Benz may have played Rita but Drusilla is similar to Lila from Dexter Season 2 and part of that season is exploring Dexter's need to kill as being like a drug addiction. Drusilla and Lila are both insane and obsessive and where Buffy and Rita appeal to the good and light in Angel and Dexter Darla and Lila appeal to their evil and darkness.
Excellent work my friend, as always
It's just such a treat every time a new video of yours appears!
The whole inconsistency surrounding vampires breathing always bothered me too, but I think I might have an explanation that matches the in-universe lore:
We know that vampires can *breathe* just by virtue of the fact that they can talk, just like they can bleed despite no circulation, and that they can eat despite not deriving any sustenance from food. My thought is that while vampires *can* still do all of these things they could do as a human, their lack of a soul also comes with a lack of some kind of vital essence. This seems especially possible when you consider the association across many if not most human cultures between soul and breath - e.g. how the word 'spirit' ultimately comes from the Latin for 'breath', link between chi and breathing, etc. This idea fits the lore because presumably the same explanation would work as to why vampires are infertile - the lack of a vital essence precludes them from giving life to anything (unless... it just happens to give you a low sperm count? That'd be a bit of an odd specification).
Therefore my reading of Angel's 'no breath' line is not that he *can't* breathe, but that the air a vampire breathes behaves in a similar way to any food a vampire eats: tastes of nothing, provides no sustenance, and so no oxygen etc.
As far as Darla is concerned, I then read her gasping when she awakes as a left over human reflex. We don't see the same thing when Angel is hanged because he was a vampire when hanged him, whereas the last thing Darla remembers is being human, and so the need to breathe.
There is one major flaw with this idea however - Angel has a soul, therefore shouldn't he need to breathe too by this argument? To this I think I just have to say eh... Gypsy-stereotype magic? The mechanics of how Angel's curse re-ensouls him without de-vampiring him are never really explained, but I guess it stands to reason that if it didn't de-vampire him then the curse must have given him a soul but no life essence, i.e. no spirit, implying that in Buffy canon there is a distinction between having a soul and being alive (which if WH lawyers do sell their soul, also seems consistent.).
That's my thought anyway, I'd be interested to know if anyone has any thoughts or counter-examples! I'm a big fan of the Buffy-mythology discussions on this channel!
Wow, this one was really well done!👌 Definitely worth the wait!!!
This is one of your best videos. Very well done.
#Justice4Willard
You did it again. I absolutely loved this video. The family aspect rings loud. Thank you 🙏🏽
I love these reviews so much
RIP Willard.
That got to me!
The lawyers brought the situation on themselves. There would be no Darla without their intervention, there would be no Drusilla without their intervention, they took every step to secure this outcome. Angel was at the end of his rope, they robbed Darla of her chance of saving her soul. I think he did the right thing
I'm always so happy when I see one of your videos drop. Thank you so much for your work, it is appreciated
This, 100x.
"Taking one life to save a thousand. No one should have to make that decision." - Sam Fisher.
Never in my life did I think I'd see a classic Splinter Cell reference on a buffyverse video that was written by someone other than me. God bless you, sir, and may you find a Chaos Theory Co-op partner who ghosts with the most.
@@GhostOfBilly It's a great comment from Fisher and I think influenced by Michael Ironside, that highlights a valid argument to the trolly problem, whether it is justified to kill for the greater good.
This can be a huge discussion on the validity of whether it is right to kill. I think Ian covered it well. Angel covered it. With Buffy I think the though shalt not kill humans as well as giving her a moral high ground stems from how Batman, Punisher, they don't kill, or in Castle's case don't kill good guys. There's a pragmatic reason as well, if she just offed, say, the Mayor there'd be a massive police investigation that would interfere with combating the threat. We saw this with the Deputy and with Ted, and she felt real bad with how she felt he deserved it and he was bad but she lost control.
@@tsstevensts For me Sam's heart always seemed heavy with shame any time he had to take the Fifth Freedom.
Old school SC always had those tiny little hints towards the characters' outlook. The best one being in Pandora Tomorrow when Lambert tries to discern whether someone is a terrorist or an agent of the US.
This is why I love your videos. I'd never really considered the parallel between this episode and Are You Now or Have You Ever Been. Chills!
Beautiful as always, Ian.
another awesome deep dive, connection points and moments together that i hadn't truly thought of! :D
I've been waiting for this episode review for the longest.
A champion counter? Fuck yes!!
FINALLY!! I almost lost hope sir. And now we observe.
Ah I've been waiting for this one! This has to be one of my favourite episodes in Angel! It almost feels like it could have been a Season Finale given the stakes and the set up for the next episodes!!!
Can I just point out how dynamite Darla and Drusilla look when they turn up at the party? Like if that's what happens when you die and are resurrected then SIGN ME UP! XD
Great work as always.
You mentioned in your video for Revelations that these retroactively instituted "counters" are a big bowl of butts for you to do so the first time I watched this video (I've watched it three times since you posted) and I saw the rewind and the imposing of the Champion counter, I cackled out loud and said "I love you Ian." I'm still cackling, and I still love you and all that you do. Stellar guide for one of my faves of the series.
I always saw Angel's fall as a combination of "careful what you ask for" mixed with "many paths to get where you want to go." In W&H there is always someone higher up the chain of command, so Holland always acting like he knew what was going on was part true and part bluff. As Holland worked and manipulated those below him, so too did he get manipulated. A combination of believing that it was inevitable that Angel would fall as long as they kept nudging him toward it, his own hubris that he was too important to be part of the plan, and that Angel would always save humans (only Angelous would let him die), made him act invincible. Remember, originally they thought Angel would get true happiness by sleeping with Darla and lose his soul, except he very much didn't. They wanted Angel to fall from grace so to speak, and he did, just not in the way Holland expected-- that his scheming and manipulations would mean he would die to make it happen. When Holland's expression falls into the stunned horror, I interpret it as the moment he realizes his lack of importance in the grand scheme of things and that he was snagged in the trap of his own creation.
Omfg my favorite RUclipsr with a new vid as I get home from a long day!!!!!!
I love you man
I never stay up this late and refresh my page. Lucky me tonight.
I think when Wolfram & Hart lawyers brought in Drusilla and turned Darla back into a monster right in front of his eyes, Angel had stopped seeing them as humans. They became monsters in his eyes, and he no longer recognized a moral imperative to save them from the consequences of their own evil actions.
I love that you cover Buffy and Angel. Some of my favorite shows ever!
I think this is the episode when Angel as a character starts to become unredeemable for me. Not necessarily because of his choice to lock the lawyers in there, but rather because of his hypocrisy when it comes to deciding who has the right to live and be redeemed and who hasn't.
HUGE Spoilers for the rest of the series:
For the rest of the series, Angel is always seen as a champion (fitting that you chose to start the champion counter right here, when the term starts to annoy me), even thought he NEVER chose to be, he never chose his soul to begin with and his choice to sleep with Darla later on in the season can be seen as an active act to get rid of it.
Given the choice between what HE wants and the gretaer good Angel almost always chooses the selfish path instead of making the hard choice to sacrifice something he loves or his selfish desires. And it starts here: Basically killing a room full of lawyers, because Angel doesn't count them as humans due to his personal experiences with some of them... after that it's trying to suffocate Wesley after making a mistake in trying to RESCUE HIS SON, creating a tear in reality to bring his son back not knowing the consequences this may have for oh lets say the rest of the fcking world, not consulting Wesley after their "breakup" even though people may suffer because of it (think late season 3, early season 4), altering a group of people's minds so that his unbearable son can get the life ANGEL THINKS HE DESERVES LIKE WTF IT'S NOT EVEN FAIR FOR CONNOR..
AND EVEN THOUGH AAAAALL OF THIS BULLSHIT HE IS STILL REGARDED AS A CHAMPION ON HIS PATH TO REDEMPTION.
And they DARE posing the question if Spike or Angel is the champion the prophecy speaks of in the Buffy finale ... I can't with his character. :D Sorry for being so angry about it, but I just don't get people defending Angel. I LOVE flawed characters, but in my opinion, those flaws should be adressed and the series just sorta... forgets about them when it comes to Angel?
I don't really think that's true. Yeah, he didn't chose to have a soul and he even made some questionable choices with it, but he did choose to be a champion. To fight the good fight and help the helpless.
I don't agree. He gave up a ring that could make himself unkillable and walk in daylight. He gave up being human and being with Buffy because he still needed to fight. And in the last episode, he signs away his claim to the prophecy and his chances of becoming human again. The lawyers weren't exactly innocent. They literally signed their souls away to work for a company that drives alot of the evil in the world. He might be responsible for not stopping Darla and Dru afterwards and locking them in, but they did bring that on themselves. Not saying what he did to Wesley was right, but it was understandable. He lost the only child he was ever going to have in part because of Wesley. Wesley screwed up by taking Connor and that resulted in Holtz taking Connor to hell which ruined his life. Wesley should have told the group and not acted alone. As for trying to tear a hole in reality, he was trying to get his son back. And consulting Wesley was kind of not on the table after all that happened. To be fair, we never knew the specifics of the deal. Maybe Angel was the only one allowed to remember. Unbearable or not, Connor was his son. Nothing that happened to Connor was fair, but what Angek did had to happen because Connor completely lost it after everything that happened to him and was going to kill himself, Cordelia, and several other people.
Because he is. He made mistakes, but he also did good as well.
Yeah because it could have been either of them. To be fair, they were kind of addressed. The memory wipe however kind of wasn't, but that was likely because the show got cancelled and they had to rush the ending.
One of my favorite episodes of Angel but that ending I was not prepared for that.
Great episode. Angel and this 😊
Laughed my ass off at this one.
This is it friends, this is the one we've all been waiting for!!!
Can't wait to watch this, but unfortunately I have to. I'll back in a few hours
Oh, my god! FINALLY a new Angel analysis!
Nothing like waking up to a new video from you! I hope that you have been doing well!
I see it as a human reflex. Vampires, especially new-made ones, forget they don't need to breathe. Darla's just been human again so waking to find herself in that position, plus the memory and emotion of her latest death, pushes the reflex button of, I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
Even though she doesn't actually need to.
Awesome review.
I don't think he meant literally no breath. I think there's an inherent essence to the breath of living things that vampires just lack- they can push air in and out of their lungs, sure, but they don't need it to continue living. Their cells don't process it, the oxygen doesn't flow through their blood. If you want to get technical about it, maybe the air vampires expel is like, 95% carbon dioxide, for some reason. There's a ton of things this could mean. It's also possible Angel could've just been WRONG. I mean, has he ever tried CPR as a vampire before? Maybe he just assumed it wouldn't work for one of the reasons I listed, but it would've if he'd given it a shot.
Personally, my favorite explanation that CPR in the Buffyverse isn't just about slamming on someone's chest to get their heart pumping and breathing into their lungs to get the oxygen flowing- there has to be a sort of spark, a microcosm of life passed from one person to another through the breath. (Fun fact- modern CPR doesn't actually require breathing at all; studies have shown that doesn't actually do anything. It's all about getting the heart pumping.)
The universe is chaos. Wolfram & Hart and the Powers That Be pretend that they have a plan and are in control of Angel's journey, but the truth is that no one is in charge of Angel except Angel. He's the wild card in their games with each other.
I actually agree with you, which I'll talk about in Epiphany. But, as much as I think that worsk for Angel's character, I think that it is narratively unsatisfying (from the perspective of the plot.) And didn't NEED to be rolled out that way. Ethan Raine, for instance, was introduced AS chaos. The way Angel is structured, W&H's plans create a desire for a reveal that is ultimately pointless.
And then there is the Jasmine retcon...
@@PassionoftheNerd Well, I suppose it makes sense from an Existentialist Absurdist viewpoint. The universe is cold and uncaring. Angel is trying to find personal meaning in it. The problem is Angel keeps looking to a higher power for this meaning because he doesn't trust his own moral compass, which opens him to manipulation by those with power.
From a more practical standpoint, I see W&H as a metaphor for Big Business and Jasmine as a metaphor for Big Religion. Both work to suppress individuality in pursuit of group conformity. Both offer purpose and meaning to those who can't create their own. Both want Angel's unique skillset and complete loyalty and see him as someone who's looking for guidance and a place to belong. The whole show is basically a job fair with two competing agencies fighting over top talent. It's too bad the show got canceled. I wanted to see where Angel's career choices took him next. LOL
Simply the best episode of the show
Great guide, well done
Were Angel's actions justifiable? Possibly. You could argue that eliminating the lawyers was an act of net good, given the harm they could and would cause.
...But the thing is, that's not *why* Angel is doing this. He's not choosing to do something morally ambiguous to prevent Wolfram and Hart from killing and torturing people in their power games. He wants revenge on people who just happen to be irredeemable assholes. And that makes a difference.
He didn't want to stop them. He wanted them to *pay* for what they did to him and Darla.
While I was watching again the birth of Angelus (Liam coming out of his grave) and I saw the air coming out of his lungs visible by the cold I got an idea that solves what he said to Xander.
The idea is that Vampires can't give life. Literally everything except for the blood in a Vampire is dead, so their breath can't give life for reasons of how the magic that makes Vampires works, whatever they are. So Angel, and the other Vampires, literally have no "breath" that would resurrect Buffy. Everything that keeps them alive and functioning moderately human is just an imperfect imitation created by the demon and the magics that keep them alive.
This is something that literally just occurred to me so I'm sure someone will find a flaw in my logic or a better explanation but this one, for the 2 minutes I have it, I really like.