Frigate Duels of the War of 1812 - USS Essex vs HMS Phoebe and HMS Cherub
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
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Today we take a look at the fifth true frigate duel of the War of 1812, with more to come!
00:00:00 - Intro
00:01:55 - Essex vs Phoebe and Cherub
Episode 1 (Constitution vs Guerriere) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 2 (United States vs Macedonian) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 3 (Constitution vs Java) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
Episode 4 (Chesapeake vs Shannon) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Congratulations , btw , your starting a 3 year experiment in sleep deprivation , good luck , Godspeed - ..I giggle - some- still :when someone says " frigates". .. ... Press on ! Comrade! ...oh ! They made submarines in Manitowoc Wisconsin , WW2 - wise ...prolly a story there , and another on how they got them to salty water , it will be fun watching the quality slip , and the durations getting sleek an slim...bee of good cheer ! , c yaz!
Hey Drach, here in Canada, we study the War of1812 in Jr High, but a contradictory American view of the causes, from your position, has worked it's way into our usually Anglophile Canadian History texts, at least back in the '70s when I was a schoolboy.
Good historiography in your naval-gun engineering vid, btw, on the nation-based biases in the sources when comparing wire vs jackets for late 1800's-WW2 large naval guns, or histriography as you so wittily put it (as a Historian, I find your reasoning irresistibly clever for using the antiquated spelling😉). However, I recently asked you to take a second look at your position that during and just before the War of 1812, American flagged ships commonly were crewed by large numbers of Royal Navy deserters, who could be identified at a glance by any Royal Navy marine in an armed boarding party. Thus the war?😂.
My usually VERY pro-British, Grade 8, CANADIAN History text, usually as pro Rule Britannia as my Loyalist Nanny, actually flat out contradicted you on this point. It held the apparently contemporary (1970's) view of Historians in the US that these boarding parties were pure press-ganging raids to man the wildly expanding Royal Navy at the time, who were busy trying to strangle Napoleon's Europe to death.
Drach, I must say, THAT could use a Histriographer, imho, how did those POVs originate, and any consensus NOW on that issue? Imho, enjoy😉.
Gummys are legal in Canada, and I'm retired😂
Had the US actually completed their great lakes first rates as well as the British finishing HMS St Lawrance’s two companion line ships. How do you think an actual engagement between the American and the British Formations would have gone? What would have been the outcome of either side claiming a major victory?
During the USS Essex's service in the U.S. Navy, was there ever any consideration of rearming her in a manner that might've allowed her a better ability to reply during the Battle of Valpariso? Also, did the Royal Navy retain her original armament or did they modify her battery?
Are the illustrative ship images from a computer game? If so, which one?
I have "Six Frigates" and highly recommend it for depth on what Drach is talking about here.
“7 Frigates” is even better.
Drach puts out more material than Netflix and he is just one contributor. Hope Alex Jr. Is doing well.
What a strange thing to say
Just coming from browsing Netflix and ending up choosing something of know quality I fully agree. Great job Drach, informative and entertaining!
I've been out of touch for a while.. Is there a little Drach now? A Drachling, perhaps?
@@eyerollthereforeiam1709 either that or he was babysitting a newborn during his recent Drydock. I suspect Drach has it memorizing the navy code by now.
@@gregcollins7602 Hopefully flag signals will be next.
A.k.a. The one where people discovered to their surprise that _range_ actually matters.
To be fair Porter apparently knew, it's just the people above him didn't feel like listening.
@@lafeelabrielThere were reasons for that. The cannonades acted as an equalizer for smaller American frigates to face larger British and French ships.
It’s more of a design decision that every actions needs to be based around rather than a flaw.
@@akwildboyz2178 Indeed, although more of a equalizer in theory than in practice.
@@lafeelabrielCarronades actually did a lot of work during multiple single-ship and fleet engagements. Lots of accounts in the archives about carronades giving heck.
The main lesson taken from this battle was of course that USS Essex needed a powerful air group.
Ahh the fun , Essex and Phoebe what a title ... I have my coffee Drach ~ 💪🏻
As a Canadian I always found the War of 1812 facinating!!
As an American, this war is the most ignored in schools. It's almost like it's just a footnote in American history.
@michaelholt8590 In a lot of ways it is a footnote. It's basically the Revolutionary War's direct to DVD sequel, and everything ended at basically the same place as the war started.
As an American, I respect Canada for being a close ally today and the first nation to kick our butts!
Hey, fellow Canadian here, does your memory of studying the War of 1812 in Jr High agree with my views in the following, and what decade were you in Jr High? I've challenged Drach to be a Histriographer on this issue, but you can tell us if the Americanized view of the causes I was taught in the '70s remained the same since then, hopefully. So, does this ring a bell? (From a previous post to Drach:)
Hey Drach, here in Canada, we study the War of1812 in Jr High, but a contradictory American view of the causes, from your position, has worked it's way into our usually Anglophile Canadian History texts, at least back in the '70s when I was a schoolboy.
Good historiography in your naval-gun engineering vid, btw, on the nation-based biases in the sources when comparing wire vs jackets for late 1800's-WW2 large naval guns, or histriography as you so wittily put it (as a Historian, I find your reasoning irresistibly clever for using the antiquated spelling😉). However, I recently asked you to take a second look at your position that during and just before the War of 1812, American flagged ships commonly were crewed by large numbers of Royal Navy deserters, who could be identified at a glance by any Royal Navy marine in an armed boarding party. Thus the war? Dunno😉
My usually VERY pro-British, Grade 8, CANADIAN History text, usually as pro Rule Britannia as my Loyalist Nanny, actually flat out contradicted you on this point. It held the apparently contemporary (1970's) view of Historians in the US that these boarding parties were pure press-ganging raids to man the wildly expanding Royal Navy at the time, who were busy trying to strangle Napoleon's Europe to death.
Drach, I must say, THAT could use a Histriographer, imho, how did those POVs originate, and any consensus NOW on that issue? Imho, enjoy😉.
Gummys are legal in Canada, and I'm retired😂
@@BHuang92while Napoleon was running Europe, the Royal Navy was a little busy to squash the fledgling US Republic for resisting any high-seas bullying and unilateral demands on trade. The war didn't last long after Napoleon fell, duh, as the Royal Navy could then spare a serious force to stomp around Washington and burn the original White House to the ground. Go figure that's glossed over in the US😆
I love frigate duels! Two gentlemen scrapping against each other in excessively inflated circumstances! The bar fights of the high seas.
Thanks throughly enjoy the Frigate duels of the War of 1812.😊
These model videos are wonderful, so helpful in understanding the tactics.
The game with the miniatures is also very enjoyable. Black seas by warlord games.
I once read about the first battle of Lissa ? A frigate squadron Vs frigate squadron I'd like to see a video done about that
I second this: the battle is both historically significant and fertile ground for humorous remarks!
ruclips.net/video/VqWD9X-QKRE/видео.html&pp=ugMICgJmchABGAHKBRFkcmFjaGluaWZlbCBsaXNzYQ%3D%3D
Drach already did it ? Unless there's multiple stages to the battle and he didn't cover them all ?
And Captain Gordon was likely Forester's inspiration for Horatio Hornblower (who though a composite, has many parallels with Gordon's colorful career) even with the name of Gordon's wife being used for Hornblower's frigate in the first novel HMS Lydia
Put it in the first comment to be sure Lord Drach see it 😉
Thank you, Drachinifel.
These are hands down my favourite youtube watching.
A consistent theme is this. When the USN outgunned the royal navy, it won. When it was outgunned or was equally matched, it lost.
The really fascinating fact is how this is viewed in America. They created songs, handed out medals, promoted all involved upon defeating a weaker foe.
I'm not saying the American navy was wrong to do that. They fought hard and well each time. But a British captain defeating a weaker foe was just a Tuesday. They might get prize money, but promotion or recognition was still a long way off
Usually true- a pair of technical exceptions to this rule was Macdonaugh's victory at Lake Champlain (both sides with 14 ships, and the British having a firepower edge), and the capture of USS President (which admittedly was being chased by a squadron but was clearly out shot by a 24 pounder heavy British frigate that was yet outgunned by President)
Fair, though I'd imagine that no small portion of the braggadocio was the result of beating a BRITISH foe (weaker or otherwise) given Britain's naval prowess. Sure, you beat up a weaker member of the toughest gang on the block, but the point us YOU BEAT UP PART OF THE TOUGHEST GANG ON THE BLOCK!!!
As someone who works with Kids the age of Midshipman Farragut. It is crazy to think of a 11 year old POW.
Thanks drach happy Friday. We appreciate your videos ❤
Love the use of the term"garbage scow" used in Star Trek. I do believe that one of the US frigates was known as the covered wagon due to her slow speed and dreadful handling
That would probably be USS United States (44 guns) built in Philadelphia. Construction was supervised IIRC by Captain Barry. He persuaded the building yard to include a spar deck stern cabin for the Captain which added weight to her stern and threw her trim way out of kilter as did the additional "sail area" of the raised deck. As I recall reading, she also had the problem of striking the bottom of the Delaware River when she slid down the ways, damaging and twisting her keel.
These problems made her the slowest and least "handy" of the 44 gun ships and resulted in the nickname "The Old Wagon." None of the drawings or paintings I've seen of United States depicts this cabin so I must assume it was removed at some point. By all accounts she was the most heavily armed of the 44s, shipping the nominal 24 pound main battery but replaced the 32 pound carronades with 42 pounders.
The United States survived until being burned during the taking of the Gosport Navy Yard (present day Norfolk Naval Shipyard) by Confederate forces at the start of the American Civil War (1861) along with Steam Frigate Merrimack and Ship of the Line Pennsylvania (120 guns) as well as several other ships including (again as I recall) at least one 74 gun Ship of the Line (Delaware?.)
@@robertf3479 it was indeed but the reference to the USS Enterprise NCC 1701 in the TOS episode"The trouble with Tribbles"was perfect
@robertf3479 There is a whole string of the USN sailing ships whose careers end with the phrase burned at Norfolk Navy Yard.
Will we be seeing a 5 minute guide on the USS Gyatt? She was a Gearing class destroyer built at the tail end of ww2, she was the first guided missile destroyer built by the US Navy, and was part of the various space programs, so she led an interesting and historically significant life.
To the best of my ability to tell, she falls within what’s considered acceptable for coverage on this channel
I hope she counts, the use of the navy in the space program is fascinating!
I still can't believe the USS GYAAAATTT actually existed. I know it's immature but man the jokes just write themselves
He's done a lot younger ships, too
Hmm. Drach normally has a hard limit of 1950. Gyatt was converted to a DDG in '55. So its a toss up whether he would do it. He may mention in passing she was the first DDG with Terrier and skip onto the Space programme. Pre Super Happy Missile Time, She did nothing special to make her stand out.
Loving this series. Thanks so much for you work!
Ah, Fun Friday!! Bring on the weekend!!
Q&A: Were all 6 Famous Frigates ever in the same place at the same time?
I doubt it? They had different home ports.
Another well done video, great job
I hope you and Mrs. Drach & little Drach are well your adventures are just beginning.
The single best doc site on the Internet.
Simply the best.
We really love the models and the photos you use!
Your work is always top notch but thanks for putting in the extra effort, it’s been giving my kid so much more context to the battles as after all he is 10 and not fully indoctrinated to the life of reading naval history books and by proxy learning naval terms.
My son doesn’t get his supper until he’s watched a Drach video.
His dessert? Another Drach video.
In one of those ironies of life that sometimes pop up both David Porter (of the Essex) and James Hillyar (of the Phoebe, later a admiral) would pass away in the same year, three months apart, in 1843.
Oh and should be noted that Porter had a son who also made admiral, it wasn't *just* Farragut. :P
Cheers to the newest member of the Drach team! More reasons to see ya in Sept-October.
I suspect Mini Drach will be raised with a blade in one hand and a book in the other. Not sure which is more dangerous.
@@elizabethopoulos4894 The book.
Congradulations to the Drachnifel family for the newest member of their crew.🥹
New frigate duel, yeeeeeaaaaaah baby!
I love your videos Drach
Thanks Drach
Thanks!
Yay, Fun Friday!!!!
Good one. Thanks
Yay, new Drac!
Great job thanks
Drach sir can u add this to your frigate duel playlist please so all in 1 place. I thought i was going nuts when the youtube search showed me 6. But the playlist has 5? Unless i'm nuts 😂😂😂😂😂. Thank u and great work
Langdon Miniatures. A sign of good taste Drach
Love these! The Hms Endymion in the coming video is one of my favorite ships. Made one in 1/700 scale for my fleet.
The fastest ship in the fleet.
There’s a Forces article entitled “From HMS Cockchafer to HMS Pansy: Why would you call a ship that?!” _For all of his accomplishments, Winston Churchill was perhaps not best known for his judgement in the naming of ships, having once been adamant that HMS Pitt would be a fitting title for a battleship._ HMS Cherub definitely makes the list.
HMS Cherub is fine name if you use the Biblical description and not visual references from most paintings/Christmas cards
The Constellation is tied up at the Baltimore Harbour. Also at the US Naval Academy hanging in one of building is the Kings battle standards flag This was the only flag that the British never recovered
10:05 Passive aggressive banners and slogans directed at each other...
I would find it amusing indeed if Admiral Nelson ever encountered a banner on a French frigate that declared, "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries"....
Awesome
I've sailed nearly 10 000 miles at sea. South China, South Pacific, dodging shipping and various fishing vessels. It's hard work. Especially mentally to stay on it. I can see why you would want to board or fight at close range. It's bloody lumpy out there. Trying to aim a cannon must have been extremely hard. Like Star trek:: best guess Mr Sulu.
Hey Drach, here in Canada, we study the War of1812 in Jr High, but a contradictory American view of the causes, from your position, has worked it's way into our usually Anglophile Canadian History texts, at least back in the '70s when I was a schoolboy.
Good historiography in your naval-gun engineering vid, btw, on the nation-based biases in the sources when comparing wire vs jackets for late 1800's-WW2 large naval guns, or histriography as you so wittily put it (as a Historian, I find your reasoning irresistibly clever for using the antiquated spelling😉). However, I recently asked you to take a second look at your position that during and just before the War of 1812, American flagged ships commonly were crewed by large numbers of Royal Navy deserters, who could be identified at a glance by any Royal Navy marine in an armed boarding party. Thus the war?😂.
My usually VERY pro-British, Grade 8, CANADIAN History text, usually as pro "Rule Britannia..." as my Loyalist Nanny, actually flat out contradicted you on this point. It held the apparently contemporary (1970's) view of Historians in the US that these boarding parties were pure press-ganging raids to man the wildly expanding Royal Navy at the time, who were busy trying to strangle Napoleon's Europe to death.
Drach, I must say, THAT could use a Histriographer, imho, how did those POVs originate, and any consensus NOW on that issue? Imho, enjoy😉.
Gummys are legal in Canada, and I'm retired😂
Good grief
History is fun, Historiography is challenging, but necessary to sort thru Drach quoting what appears to be early 19th-Century, Royal-Navy propaganda as Historic fact, when even Anglophile Canadian Historians give more credence to the contrary American historical position on the issue, at least as recently as 50-years ago. Drach self-describes himself as a Histriographer, this is a perfect opportunity for him to be exactly that. Imho. I love his channel and work, could listen to him all day, but after being a sub for a decade, this is the ONLY time I've noticed a problem with his historiography, and I think he'll appreciate the heads up because it is such a rare lapse.
There were many post Treaty of Paris British subjects crewing American warships but that doesn't make them deserters. If anything, you might call them Mercs or draft dodgers.
@@johnshepherd9676 how the hell did the individual members of any given Royal-Navy boarding party, from any specific British ship, mostly Marines, know who anyone was on any given American-flagged vessel?!? It doesn't make sense on the face of it, there were literally thousands of sailors, and they all knew each other?!? If I was defending Drach's/the Royal-Navy's position, I might point out how common press gangs were in British ports, so many RN sailors probably did bugger off in any port of call they landed in, but that objectively undercuts their position by pointing out how commonplace the practice was, which lends credence to the American position, ie, the Brits were expanding their navy so quickly in response to Napoleon that they were desperate enough for crew, and so pissy about the US kicking them out, that they were using armed press gangs against any ship with an American flag they could find. I wouldn't be surprised if the Royal Navy was treating any British-flagged merchant ship the same way. Hmmm, hey Drach, I'm guessing, but am I right? Any History of British merchant ships making the same complaints as their American peers around that time? That is Historiography😉
@@artdent9871 Yes, the Royal Navy did press sailors of British merchants. The press gang was the era's version off the draft board. The British government still considered Americans born before the Treaty of Paris to be British subjects and subject to impressment. We know that there were not significant numbers of deserters on American warships because few captured sailors were hung for desertion.
How different would things be if Porter had his wish well before Essex had left for the South Pacific?
Hello! Q for the next Drydock: why didn’t the Americans fill ‘the slot’ with mines during the Guadalcanal campaign?
Thanks for all your hard work!
I feel like drach gives me a hug every Friday when this opening tune starts. Then it ends we make awkward eye contact and promise to not tell our wives.
The opening does have oddly romantic vibes. lol
I dont't care how outnumbered you were nor how gallantly you fought; there's something rather sad about being duffed up by a ship named Cherub.
Since youre covering mayerial on the War of 1812, would you please cover the naval campaign on the Great Lakes during the conflict? Thank you in advance.
Can you please go back to your old intro, the 6 mons or less on an hour or so vid, made me smile. thanks for all you have dpne, Leona
Armoured Carriers is mint!
I hope this series is finally cathartic to Brits, still traumatized after 210 years. Oh well, there is always the Battle of Lake Erie ;)
Peering beyond the underbrush of assorted potential causes belli, the American war aim was to invade and seize Canada. They failed entirely hence they lost the war. The British war aim (not the minor haggling of treaty negotiations) was to make the Americans stop it and go away and succeeded totally. Which is called winning. At the time it was not considered an important issue in Britain with a minor thing called the Napleoleonic wars taking place near home which was very much the major item. Canadian and British folk remain amused by the American President and his local army running away from the American capital city whose government buildings were put to the torch. I wonder how much history teaching in the USA is devoted to the Battle of Bladensberg aka the Bladensberg Races?
Great story. The world was enormous then.
the only way you catch a faster boat is inlight air with 3 times as much sail and royals and stunsails above and below on main courses.
lol, Cherub. Might as well have named it HMS Pixie. 🧚
Yes the name of some British warships have made me laugh. HMS Cherub, and HMS Pansy being two especially. 😂😂😂
When you have so many ships you're bound to run out of cool or intimidating names.
@@michaelholt8590The flower class was just a bad idea. It’s crazy they had a ship named HMS pansy because I was going to joke they might have well named it HMS Pansy. Didn’t know there had actually been one named Pansy.
@@AWMJoeyjoejoeThere are more than enough cool or intimidating moves, but this was a different time. It was such a rougher time, but unlike today, they didn’t seem overly concerned with coming up with cool names. lol
There’s a Forces article entitled “From HMS Cockchafer to HMS Pansy: Why would you call a ship that?!” _For all of his accomplishments, Winston Churchill was perhaps not best known for his judgement in the naming of ships, having once been adamant that HMS Pitt would be a fitting title for a battleship._ HMS Cherub definitely makes the list.
Like 2 wolves setting upon another one that's slower but has bigger fangs.
I have a book called "HUNTING THE ESSEX " by Midshipman Allen Gardiner of HMS PHOEBE, A small book but a good read.
I wonder if the attempt to force Essex to violate Chilean neutrality was the inspiration for Captain Aubret's attempt to force the French to violate neutrality in the Ionian Mission.
Almost certainly, I would say. The parallels are too close for it to be otherwise, IMHO.
mmmm.....so duelly!
Thank you. I didn't know about this battle or its' result. Having now done some reading I am sorry to learn that Captain Porter was such a bad looser seemingly blaming everyone else for his defeat and accusing the British of violating neutrality, conducting themselves dishonorably and inhumanely, and plundering his personal property after the engagement. None of which was true. He also stated that the loss of Essex was simply due to a series of misfortunes and blamed the 3rd Secretary of Navy for his defeat. He also felt the British should be fined and the Essex returned. Given how the British Captain praised him for his "gallantry" in battle I wonder if he would have been so kind if he knew his opponent was basically accusing him of piracy?
You can't add ship's names to the animation? Or the wind's direction? That would be very helpful. Can you also acknowledge what I think was what a battle Patrick O'Brian wrote about?
I didn't use any O'brian books in making this video...
Is it supposed to be Valparaiso instead of Valparasio? All my searches end up with Valparaiso, save a few electronic game maps.
Yes, minor mispronunciation on my part.
@@Drachinifel Thanks for clearing that up. I often look at maps to follow the action in these warship battles. I got confused when I couldn’t find Valparasio.
What ws an age of sail "garbage scow"?
So we had a ship named Jr. whodathawtit?
Although I understand the rules of neutrality in a port/war, I just find it unfathomably amusing that enemies had the class and temper to just sit next to each other when their countries are actively at war. Just flipping each other off while they provoke the other to make a move.
Hi from uk
Hi Drach! You say that the prisoners taken from one side, that would be actually deserters, would get executed. That is logical thing obviously, but I am curious, how could anybody tell if the prisoner is the deserter? I guess the deserters in question would be the last ones to admit that, and the any registers with photos could not be the case yet, for obvious reasons ;) Did they have any tattoos or something? Cheers :)
Sometimes identifying marks like tatios, sometimes identification by former shipmates, sometimes by matching time and name in the ships payroll books.
@@Drachinifel Life seemed to be much easier before the face recognition systems ;) Thanks for the answer :)
Hmmm. Not giving the 24 hours and just loitering right outside of the port seems pretty sketchy on the part of the Brit’s. Like. If the Brit’s had waited and then seen the Essex run into trouble and then decided to go for it, but they immediately attacked. From my understanding , this was breaking agreed upon international law, by not waiting twenty four hours.
✌
I see you have a copy of American Sailing Navy
I managed to get that book since December.
Am I going mad or did we already do this video sometime in the past?
Oh look the porn spambots have found Drachinifel!
Britain finally gets a dub
I understand there are quite a few trying to get Canada to 'join' the USA. Agent Orange anyone ?
I noticed you mispronounced Majestic, Endymion, Pomone, and Tenedos as Endymion.
:)
It turns out that the left can't meme all the way back in King George's time.
I think the HMS Cherub was there only for the fun.
It was two on one fight. Since the American sloop wasn't in the fight, why didn't go back to port or escape instead of allowing itself to be captured Poor seamanship to go into a squall.
17th, 26 April 2024
I can second that.
Thanks, my computer doesn't have a calendar so this is very useful
on the tabletop version of your discord people get bullied to oblivion and then your mods mute them when they try to defend themselves, you should reset a new discord, this is the most horrid place i have ever seen online