Last Ride of the High Seas Fleet - Battle of Texel 1918
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Since people keep asking - lets have a look at how a final battle between the Grand Fleet and the High Seas Fleet could have gone.
Want to talk about ships? / discord
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
I think the variant where Seymour messed up and the battle never happened is the more realistic one.
Honestly Flag Officer Seymour seems like he deserves an entire comedy based around his complete and utter incompetence.
If anythingc that would ironically have been the preferred outcome
@@JonatasAdoM Seymour which who was a coward pure and simple
@@BoisegangGamingiiuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiviviviviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiivviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiviiivviiiiiii
Flag Officer Seymour, you are hereby presented the Iron Cross 2nd class.
The lad committed suicide four years to late.... make that six, i forgot Jutland. o___O
Took me a sec to get xD
@@demos113 I don't think wishing an early suicide on him is fair. Being discharged for general incompetence, maybe.
@@wingcommanderbob8268 No, he did commit suicide in real life in 1922.
@@YoungGarrett the person i replied to suggested him commiting suicide six years earlier... that is why i said "early" suicide...
Damn! That was some BRILLIANT play-by-play. I was listening to the audio without watching my PC screen. The "graphics" weren't really necessary because the narration was absolutely gripping. BRAVO Sir!
I would very much enjoy more of this!
I get it's not an easy video to make, but this was fantastic.
You should read, "Sink The Bismark" an account by a British junior officer who served in the fleet. Covers the timeline of events and brings together what the different units were doing as Bismark and Prinz Eugene made their Atlantic foray. Even details like King George V leaving port with civilian workers still aboard because she was so new and unfinished. It's a great read!
@@athopi : Thanks for the recommendation. I read it when I was ten. It's a great book. It really focuses on the human element. BTW, it was Prince of Wales that sortied with the civilian builders making adjustments to her turrets.
Cheers!
Bufoferrata yes they were fantastic oratory
@@Bufoferrata I was on HMS Belfast when she was doing trials in 1959, she had builders workmen on board, about 12- 15 men from what I recall
"Florida is being evacuated." That's a sentence I've heard a lot.
#floridaman
#hurricanestate
Yeh and nz is under the yellow flag , for another 2 years,! But wait now it doesn’t matter…. How’s COVID political …to let me ask what happened to our global position while we had our heads so far down in the sand??? Guessing we won’t being getting a visit from some of our new post biggest trade partners…..
"Florida is under water!"
In other news, the crew of an American battleship was removed after receiving irreparable damage from Imperial German forces.
Fascinating scenario; my granddad was a 16 year old on board HMS Iron Duke (with Jellicoe) at Jutland. He witnessed the surrender of the High Seas Fleet and its scuttling at Scapa Flow. (He gave me a photo of it).
He left the navy in 1937, but they called him back, in the Second World War, for Arctic convoys, and a spot of minesweeping for D-Day.
Where is that photo?
"With the K-class [...] sending about a third of the German fleet to the bottom in a single, massive torpedo strike."
I can only imagine what effect _that_ would have on post-war naval thinking.
A lot of very confused people :)
The future of naval warfare lies below...
As one as of late relatively well known youtuber/twitch streamer and former Sonarman on a Los-Angeles class attack submarine always says:
"There are only two types of ship on the seas nowadays... submarines and targets."
technically those were not submarines, but submersibles.
@@sd501st5 Would that be Captain Jive Turkey?
Just a quick note, thankful shout-out to the community who provided the voice of Admiral Scheer!
EDIT: Additionally, as a few have pointed out, the Dutch coast was NOT occupied in WW1, this came about from a transcription error in my notes as we had designated the Dutch coast 'hostile' for the purposes of denoting that ships that went ashore were not recoverable, but the shorthand used made me think for some reason that meant 'occupied' when recording.
Possibly, how long have you got.
Drachinifel Nicely done!
What? That wasn't really Admiral Scheer? I feel so cheated. :-|
The whole video was exceptionally well done, by the way.
If a shell hit the bridge or in the area we rolled for the bridge crew to see if they died in the explosion :)
@Golden Eagle we have outlines of each ship class divided into various areas, a hit is randomly assigned to an area via dice role if it is not already allocated by some other rule
TFW the description gets to 1130hrs and you imagine the sight of the Grand Fleet steaming in all its fury, led by the Queen Elizabeth class battleships.
*RULE BRITANNIA INTENSIFIES*
1350hrs HMS Warspite leads the whole fleet, despising all the hard knocks of war
*RULE BRITANNIA INTENSIFIES FURTHER*
In all seriousness, this is a pretty fair appraisal. The German sailors by 1918 knew there was no point in wasting their lives in an impossible assault, and the wargaming examplifies why.
Rule Britannia, accompanied a metal rendition of Anchors Aweigh as Texas follows right behind, spitting fire from her funnel.
Halinspark I’d go more with “The Yellow Rose of Texas” being played by 50 banjos and a full marching band simultaneously.
bairdrew my heart was fluttering away listening to the narrative. Could see the battle ensigns flapping.
"The BB Texas, perturbed at being overtaken...." if there was ever a sentence of how a Texan captain would ever feel about having his BB, named after his home state, being overtaken by a British BB, the only one more likely would be that sentence, followed by "... the Texas opened fire on the British ship."
30:27 if a battleship explodes but no one rolls high enough to notice does it make a sound?
If perception is reality, no.
Bishop Berkeley says, "No". Herr Kant is still considering the matter.
@@MendTheWorld You sir, you just made my day there.
I mean, I'm a DnD player. I'm used to there being a 1 in 20 chance of failing a perception check spectacularly.
I like how the New Zealand continued to be a lucky ship. The Captain must have been wearing his lucky Maori grass skirt and jade amulet!
Greenstone / pounamu in local parlance
I can see them doing a Haaka when the trumpeter blows Action Stations
*"HE TAUAAAAAAA!!!" (A WAR PARTYYY!!!)*
I never thought, that it would be possible, to do such a good review of a battle that never happened and that these guys were able to literally play it as real as possible. This certainly is one of your best videos.
I‘m not sure if I would have wanted this to happen, because next to this battle jutland would have been nothing else but a little engagement and there would have been a lot of horrible deaths, but it would be one of the most interesting battles in history.
30 Seconds ln: "BATTLE OF JUTLAND 2 - ELECTRIC BOOGALO" - FREAKIN' PRICELESS, My Friend, Especially ln That Voice!
9 years ago I was involved in a 2 year long wargame hypothesizing the UK pissing the US off to the point that the US joined Germany in 1914. Involved some highly fascinating battles involving mixed squadrons of BBs and BAs, along with the RN BCs either wrecking coastal patrols or getting used against USN BBs with rather bad effects for the BCs in those cases. By mid-1915, the USN had gone from having 3 fleets to having 2, and those being noticeably weaker. The RN had also lost a lot of ships, really more than the US when you consider that they had far more limited basing options in the Western Hemisphere and Halifax was basically under blockade as much as could be done by the USN, meaning that RN capital ships needing repairs had to limp back to Britain which was dangerous. I was commander of the 3rd Fleet, which fought the war in the Caribbean against a smaller British squadron (secondary theater for them) and the French Navy.....end result was that I had a single BB (Delaware) by the end of a brutal island-hopping campaign, but the Marine Nationale was gone as an effective force and the Royal Navy was pushed out of the Caribbean to South America. The Central Powers managed to pull off a minor victory against the Japanese second line capital ships (not the Kongoes) and Russian ships. Finally, a 1915 Jutland happened, but with the Royal Navy having been weakened from such battles as Halifax, Delaware Bank, and the 1st and 2nd Battles of Martinique, the KM succeeded in a marginal victory that was just enough to bring everyone to the table for a compromise peace in August 1915.
That war was a bloody nightmare, and taking the two SC class BBs and a couple of pre-dreads up against the French and British in the Caribbean was.....let's say nerve wracking. Managed to pull it off, but just barely, and with a lot of touch and go moments, especially when the French experimented with dropping lots of little bombs (grenades basically) on my Battleships in an effort to get bombs down the funnels, and the British managed to torpedo my one and only seaplane tender with what amounted to their pre-production first torpedo bomber concept plane.
I think total capital ship losses were somewhere on the order of as many as 15-20 BAs, 10 BBs, 5 BCs. The Entire US cruiser force was gone, the entire French Destroyer force was gone, and the USN was using its first 1000 tonner DDs as light cruisers.
That sounds like a substantial undertaking, what games system did you use? :)
Sorry stupid question what does BA stand for?
Honestly, I don't know. I did find that the results appeared to be quite realistic, even including the early British shells contributing to their marginal defeat at Halifax (where a decent chunk of the Grand Fleet sailed to the West to take out the USN and well.....sort of succeeded in equally mopping the floor with one another). That and I could use Navweaps to get information on my guns or my enemy's guns and that information turned out to be accurate in relation to gameplay.
BA is a notation for Pre-Dreadnoughts.....which since the USN and RN had quite a few of them, and the RN used theirs in secondary theaters to keep the BBs available for dealing with the HSF.....this game involved a Lot of pre-dreadnoughts.
I still have access to the thousands and thousands of posts worth of information, so that's eminently doable. Thought about writing it into a book, but work is busy enough that it's just never been doable. If Drach would like to do an Alternate History sort of thing, I think that we could probably condense it down into five parts or so. But I'm definitely up for collaborating @drachinfel if you're game?
As a Texan I cheered and started laughing when I heard the description of the mast and just knew it would be the Texas, riding hell-bound for leather, to get into a scrap considering how close it had come previously in the war.
Just a cloud of bluebonnets and Whataburger following in her wake. If you don't mess with Texas, Texas will come mess with you.
Very consistent with, well, Texas.
18:40 Was listening to this in the background, but the captaining of the USS Texas forced me to tab back to like and comment.
Only disappointed they didn't manage 22.55 knots by getting the oars out.
they burned the oars......
@@thomasbernecky2078 Captain: tell the chief engineer to shovel faster I want more speed
XO: but sir, well wreck our engines
Captain: do I look like I care you think I'm going to be overtaken by the limeys
@@kainhall I'm getting tired to the Caribbean curse of the Black Pearl vibes run out the sweeps
You forgot to mention the erecting of a 100' Statue of Lord Beatty, 1st Baron Texel, erected in Trafalgar Square (Rumour has it that his Lordship paid for the final 90' ) ;)
doccyclopz made from the melted down Krupp steel of the surrendered German battleships. ;)
o god
Viscount Texel
Wouldn’t that be a fucking sight.
Woohoo! Come on Texas! Love that old girl. I got back from morning PT to be greeted by this. You had me laughing so hard when you said that Texas was blowing boilers to take the lead of the squadron. Lol, great video. Keep it up!
Loved it when Texas was being towed in . I live in Houston and she's right here. Been aboard her many times.
Lord i never thought i would get so excited over a hypothetical battle. Even though im not American, when i hear you said that the german look out spotted ships with a strange mast. I cant help but get really excited. Well done m8, this video made my day.
Of course us Yanks are going to make sure we do everything to upstage the limeys. I almost died when I heard you say that the Texas was pulling away and leading the formation.
There's a bit of a story there, one of our group is from South Carolina so we immediately voted him commander of 6th Battle Squadron. (key posts got their own commanders).
When word of the battlecruiser fight reached the Grand Fleet 'Beatty' ordered the fleet to proceed to assist with all speed.
The commander of 5th BS took the chance to use his ships greater speed to tear off asap, whereas in theory 6th BS should have been leading as they were the westernmost squadron.
Cue our American friend ordering his own ships to full speed, then upon being told he wasn't as fast, he asked "could we go faster if we dumped everything we can physically throw overboard that isn't a gun, and run the engines as hard as they will go without exploding in the next few hours?"
We did some quick checking and figured he could get an extra knot or two, and so off the Texas charged with the engines almost jumping off their mounts. :p
I won't recount some of the colourful language he came out with once he was told he was I'm range of the HSF.😁
@@Drachinifel that is damn funny. the only thing I can think about is the old farmer with the compass on the Japanese submarine in the movie 1942 singing the Yanks are coming.
"We have not yet begun to steam." - Admiral Rodman
The Dracher may have used the USS Texas as a bit of comedy relief amongst the absolute carnage we listened to (20,000 + dead either side?) but breaking down in heat of battle is easily possible for Texas and New York circa 1918. 1972 book of WW1 battleships has this: "The recurrent problems with Turbine design came to a head when tenders came for the New York Class. After a drawn out wrangle the Bureau of ships took the unique step and went back to reciprocating machinery to show that the US Navy would not be blackmailed".....you really know your stuff Dracher! thanks!
When he said it was an "unusually large tower", I knew it was those goofy nuclear reactor cooling tower looking things that the Standard-Class battleships all had at the time. Somehow I just new it would be Texas leading the charge. :)
An enjoyable and plausible scenario, I like the fact you wargamed it out multiple times, True you likely enjoyed it, but wargaming is a valid method of testing out tactics and scenarios that was, and still is used by militaries around the world.
It's interesting to speculate what the psychological implications of a decisive Trafalgar type victory might have been for the British navy and people. The unsatisfactory victory of Jutland was a massive disappointed. 'The spell of Trafalgar had been broken' leaving the Royal Navy with a feeling it had failed in its task to destroy its enemy rather than to slowly and ingloriously strangle it: perhaps this has been evident ever since, even now.
How might such a victory as the Texel have effected the future London and Washington treaties? Might Britain's attitude have been more robust perhaps? Might the unhealthy feeling of Britain being in perpetual decline since the Great War have been averted by such a 'clean' victory.
Victory at such a late stage in the war could not have have averting Britain's decline as a first class power, as with the rapid reduction in Royal Navy's strength post WWI, Britain could no longer maintain its previous two power standard. With the new and powerful US fleet now astride Britain's far eastern imperial sea route and a newly powerful Japanese navy ensconced in its heartland the writing for British Imperial power was already on the wall.
I don't think it would have made that much of a difference in terms of tonnage tbqh. At least so far as the heavy mob goes.
The most reasonable change I forsee would be the scrapping of the R-class in the mid 1920s and their replacement with a tranche of 5 newer battleships that would serve as an intermediary class between the Nelson twins and the KGV class.
There'd probably be more effort put in to destroyers and light cruisers tbqh, which the RN had decided were overall the more important ship types (and they were quite right in that). With a bit of luck, assuming the Flying Squadron did something of use in the hypothetical (I don't remember hearing them mentioned) the RN might put some more serious consideration in to it's carrier forces.
It will also reinforce to the US navy to have a battlecruiser after the battle and also accelerate the development of fast battleships and carries
Vespelian I suspect it would have made the Japanese much more likely to come to the table with the British, to reaffirm their alliance rather than abandon it to claim British possessions in SE Asia. It's unlikely Germany would've built any kind of surface fleet in WWII, especially no battleships, which would've made the Atlantic convoys much safer and the Battle of Britain even easier.
@@Jaxck77 I wouldn't bet money on no german battle ships helping the Atlantic convoys out. Both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz have combined a displacement of about 80 times the displacement of a single Type IXC U-boat submarine built at the end of the war. Yes that isn't a completely direct comparison but the steel from those two ships alone would have probably doubled the number of total Type IXC subs built. With double the number of subs available it is certainly possible that the war in the Atlantic could have turned out differently in the early part of the war.
@@bairdrew also with how well the subs did during the battle, it might lead Britain to look further into developing that arm of the navy, also into developing better torpedo defences and submarine hunting gear earlier
A fascinating video. I know I'm a bit late getting to it, but I thoroughly enjoyed this What-If exercise answering a question I myself have asked in my head many times.
A few points that particularly stood out to me:
I'm surprised that Derfflinger was able to survive as long as it did with such a spectacular turret fire blazing forward. One would have thought it would have been a matter of seconds, minutes as most, before those flames reached her main magazine, but she kept going long enough to at least contribute a bit more before succumbing. One can only imagine the desperate action below decks of damage control crews with firehoses trying to keep the flames at bay long enough to flood the foreward magazine and save the ship from exploding as the British battlecruisers did at Jutland.
Not gonna lie, my heart swelled with pride when the British battlefleet (or at least the American contingent) was being led by the overtaxed piston engines of my home state's flagship, the USS Texas. Historically, she was always the first into the fight and the last to leave during the Second World War, even flooding her own torpedo bulge to get a last few shots in at Normandy, even overstraining her engines similar to this in 1946 during Operation Magic Carpet to ensure that American servicemen from the Pacific would get home in time for Christmas. Some have pointed out that the spark-filled black smoke clouds may be inaccurate as the Texas was oil fired, but I can believe that detail as the engineers forcing the boilers' oil burners open beyond their normal limits to pour on every ounce of fuel, leading to some of it not burning properly and forming an impromptu smokescreen. And later in the battle I can also agree with the Americans accepting the temporary leadership of HMS Warspite, more than likely the only British dreadnought even they would respect.
My biggest surprise was the crucial contribution of the K Class submarines. Long derided as next to useless, even by your own good self, I was shocked that they would be the element to turn the tide of this battle, and I must admit somewhat validated; had they been designed stronger with better maneuvering capabilities, the idea of a steam submarine in the First World War era is not as daft as it sounds, especially as the K's boilers were specially designed to be shut down and fired up quite rapidly. That said, historically their crush depth (if memory serves) was less than twice their own length, which they could reach quite easily through uncontrollable dives. As such, it also seems accurate that four of them were lost without a trace during the engagement. But at least they got their moment of glory that was denied them in real life, leaving them an undeserving historical laughing stock.
Derfflinger's fate was in some ways similar to Seydlitz at Dogger Bank, everything in the turret cooked off, but enough safety provisions allowed them to flood the magazine in time.
Texas was originally coal powered, her oil fired boilers wouldn't be installed until the mid'20's so in this battle she's still powered by coal :)
Thanks for the long feedback post!
HMS New Zealand living up to her lucky ship status
Direct quote from game #4 between 'von Reuter' and one of the 'signalman':
"check targets at rear of line"
"Visibility improved since time of last report. Indefatigable class, likely New Zealand, leading two larger vessels of unknown configuration, many shell splashes larger the 12" guns"
"how many salvos fired and how many hits?"
" -(Describes efforts on other rearward BC's)- Target New Zealand, 12 salvos fired, range established on salvo 4, hits registered, 0"
"*$@* this, shoot at something that doesn't have divine protection"
"Seydlitz will engage next target in line."
:p
A very well deserved reputation that many thought was Maori magic.
I believe I read about how the captain of the New Zealand was presented with a traditional Maori "good luck charm" to be worn in battle which he wore at Jutland. I would say the Maori are strong with the force.
The captain had a Maori warriors skirt and a jade tiki pendant as good luck charms. During Jutland with all the other battle cruisers blowing up, one officer double checked w the bridge crew to confirm the captain was wearing them and they survived without a scratch.
@@Drachinifel Us Kiwis are weird like that. Congrats for making me cry with laughter.
The German capital ships have lower free-board than their British opposite numbers. This lack of free-board results in dangerous situations developing with smaller reserve buoyancy and stability issues with flooding above the armoured deck. Smashed up decks allow large quantities of water to enter high up in the ship's hull: as free-board is reduced by damage; attempt to steam at high speed and or heel as ships carry out rapid course changed; etc. The German ships cannot carry out prolonged full power steaming as the poor quality of their coal required increased raking out of the large build up of ashed from their boilers. This poor quality coal also increased the difficult task for the Germans in keeping funnel smoke to a minimum. The superior British coal made the work of the British crews much easier. The oil fueled British were in a far better situation even still.
Good analysis.
Pleased that HMAS Australia got a look in at this battle. It had missed Jutland because it was being repaired after a collision with sister ship of the Indefatigable class, HMS New Zealand. Note that is His Majesty's Australian Ship Australia, as it was the flagship of the Royal Australian Navy. HMS New Zealand was paid for by that Dominion but was gifted to the Royal Navy, intended for the China Station, but was released by the New Zealand government at the request of the Admiralty for service in British waters before the war.
HMAS Australia was 'unlucky' in the sense that unlike New Zealand it saw little action. At the start of World War I, Australia was tasked with finding and destroying the German East Asia Squadron, which was prompted to withdraw from the Pacific by the battlecruiser's presence. The commander of the German squadron said that only the presence of Australia prevented him from shelling Australian ports in the early months of the war. So it did solid service for the country in the inglorious role of a deterrent
Repeated diversions to support the capture of German colonies in New Guinea and Samoa, as well as an overcautious Admiralty, prevented the battlecruiser from engaging the German squadron before the latter's destruction. Australia was then assigned to North Sea operations, which consisted primarily of patrols and exercises, until the end of the war.
Australia only ever fired in anger twice: at a German merchant vessel in January 1915, and at a suspected submarine contact in December 1917.
It was sunk outside Sydney heads in 1924 in compliance with the Washington Naval Treaty.
Thanks for the extra info- most interesting.
I do like the way you phase statement of "unlucky", well done, it is too easy as wargamers to at times to forget that real life war is not pretty.
So even though it never engaged a major enemy, it did sterling work defending Australia and the rest of the empire
18:16 "over there" starts playing in the distance.
Kasen Miller Admiral Hipper: *confused screeching*
The US General on the South Carolina: *PREPARE YOUR AINIS FOR MY PAINIS*
*SEND THE WORD SEND THE WORD*
The Yanks are Coming!
The yanks are coming,
With drums rum tumming everywhere.
Q&A - how about the reverse i.e. The High Seas fleet engages the Grand Fleet in Aug or Sept 1914? Thanks again for bringing to life these beautiful beasts of the seas!
That is just Jutland, but with 2 years early.
Awesome video! Had to laugh at the description of HMS Agincourt's "turret farm" he he :)
I'm a simple American, I hear USS Texas I up vote! Lol
Yes specially After she racked her boilers to out run the Queen Elizabeths
I have trouble believing that an American admiral of the time would take orders from a superior officer of any other nationality. On the Western Front US generals were infamous for their unwillingness to be directed by UK or French field marshals, so in this battle I can imagine the Americans are more likely to wander around doing their own thing rather than being integrated into a British squadron like the Australians were.
@@1TruNub she's still floating, are any of the ships she was chasing that can say the same???? nope.
mike holton she's barely floating due to neglect but there are plans to give her a permanent dry land home sort of like mikasa in Japan
I see "simple American"... I down vote.
Big old smile came to my face as I heard the report of a ship with unusually large masts
everything's bigger in texas
Second hand oil rigs?
18:16 Go get'em Texas!!!! (Que the Solder from Team fortress 2's battle cry )
HIYYAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIGHHHH!!!!!
@@moritamikamikara3879 Lets do this Texas style.
Easily my favorite video you’ve ever produced. I love your description of the USS Texas entering the battle and the participation of the USS Arkansas, my grandfather’s ship from WWII.
The Texas coming thundering out of the Smoke because it was impatient to get Into the fight is such an American move, I love it. Greetings from Boston!
The fact that it destroys its engines in the process lives rent free in my head. I love returning to this video every now and again.
I mean, it REALLY is the most Texas thing ever...both for the ship and her namesake state.
@@loganb7059 I usually rewatch this every other month.
@@jordanpeterson5140 "Those fuckers started the fight without me. Well I'll show them!" is indeed a very Texas thing.
*Bullwhip crack*
“YEEEEEEHAW!”
That’s roughly what I was picturing.
Had I known I was going to voice Admiral Scheer, I would've made it even better. I feel cheated.
I request a part 2 from the Grand fleet's point of View
hell yeah
*Hearts of Oak intensifies*
Well, this was a lot of fun watching. Filled with tension as well, I think you presented it very effectively.
A lovely battle report of the what-if scenario. I am a bit surprised all the K-class submarines didn't have Torpedo duds, hydraulic failures and horrible friendly collision accidents as it would have been more in light of their historical performance
Fantastic work. I'll be rewatching/listening a few more times. This battle scenario would be mind boggling made in big budget movie form.
Thanks for a brilliant and well thought out and researched video.
The massive numerical advantage held by the Allies at the end of the war makes any chance of a German victory unlikely, especially as many of the flaws revealed at Jutland had been corrected.
Then again a Naval victory wasn't the point of the German plan, it was to get better terms at the peace conference table and to avenge German honour.
Points a game cannot truly duplicate is that by late 1918 many ships of the High Seas Fleet were in poor mechanical condition due to low crew morale and falling discipline.
Also many of the best officers and crew had been transferred to U-boats reducing efficiency and skills.
Another point is that the quality of coal available to the HSF was very poor which would rapidly affect speed,
Thank you for educated & intelligent content.
Britiniaa ruled the waves .The Yankees waived the rules
When the massive smoke & cinders sighting came up at 18:30+ I thought for a moment it would be the Admiral Kuznetsov in a sort of an alternative “The final countdown” movie scenario... :)
I find it odd that the U-boats had no effect, but the k-class subs had such consistent success. Were there any scenarios in which German U-boats damaged the Grand Fleet instead?
In fairness, the U-boats are making attempts at intercepting throughout the open expanse of the North Sea while the K-class sail with the Grand Fleet and know more or less exactly where they can intercept the High Seas Fleet.
So Texel becomes the last time a fleet surrenders at sea instead of Tsushima. The Americans help lead the Van and show they aren't the weak link. Awesome
Well if were being technical the 5th BS lead the van as they overtook the whole Grand Fleet to rush to the aid of the battlecruiser squadron. And by the end of the battle Warspite remained the vanguard of the whole fleet.
@@bairdrew did you not see he said help
Great combination of historical analysis and modern war gaming. It goes a long way to explain why German sailors refused to come and and die for no good reason. Very pleased to see that HMS New Zealand got a mention.
For those interested, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a long short story about this battle that might have been called "The Death Voyage" collected in UNCOLLECTED STORIES published in 1982. The outcome was the same as Drach's splendid speculation, but the battle considerably different.
When you see the profile view the high seas Fleet and think, "looks a bit small for the page." When you see the Grand Fleet," that's why it's so big"
"Agincourt is down to only 3 turrets" With any other battleship that would still be most of its turrets.
In the case of later ships (1930s built/WW2 era) 3 turrets often constituted the *entire* main battery. Four turreted ships were either old (Warspite, Guilio Cesare, Kongo, etc) or unusual (Bismarck, Vanguard).
Agincourt is the only ship we can say that with "only".
the Netherlands were not occupied in WW1. Probably the warships of waring parties would be seized, but NL was not hostile to anybody at the time.
Ronald de Rooij My ears pricked up when we were told that part of the Dutch coast was under German control. My (Dutch) wife confirmed that The Netherlands were neutral and unoccupied.
You are totally correct and Drachinifel
sorts this as below.
To quote him in the comments section:
"EDIT: Additionally, as a few have pointed out, the Dutch coast was NOT occupied in WW1, this came about from a transcription error in my notes as we had designated the Dutch coast 'hostile' for the purposes of denoting that ships that went ashore were not recoverable, but the shorthand used made me think for some reason that meant 'occupied' when recording.
"
When I need something to "lift my spirits", I play this video (starting around 18:00).
Great show, as always! I particularly enjoyed the blooper reel part where the battle starts and immediately goes sideways in spectacular fashion with a German battleship blowing up and getting rammed by 3 other ships. That bit was hilarious!
I could imagine HMS Warspite sending a message saying "will need to revise our list of spares"
Just finished "Castles of steel" and wondered how this battle would have turned out if it wasn't for the German mutiny... I can rest somewhat easy now...
I’d love to see this kind of narration on naval battles like Leyte gulf and Jutland or just more war gamed scenarios
The format works well for Texel, as the intention of the HSF is clear: cause as much damage as possible. A speculative post-corollary might be how the heroic performance of 6th Sqdn affected the design of future USN BBs. (They showed well but got shot up good.)
If you want some pronounciation tips for German ship names, I'd gladly help out :)
Suggestion: Do a "war game" type assessment like this, but for the Austro-Hungarian vs. Italian fleets at different times - 1916, 1917, etc. Sounds like fun!
As interesting this scenario is, thank god it never came to it. It would have been a pointless destruction of life. WW1 was terrible enough without a second great battle at sea.
Great video nonetheless!
Combined with the war on land, the Kaiser would have faced the fate of his cousin in Russia.
@@WALTERBROADDUS He came within a hair's breadth of it anyway. very nearly half of Germany was in open revolt by November of '18, and several cities including Berlin had declared themselves soviets.
@@bairdrew He wasn't in Berlin when the Revolution started on the 9th of November. He was at his Headquarters in Spa (Belgium) when he was informed that he "had been abdicated" without his knowledge by Chancellor Max von Baden. From there, he fled to the Netherlands after Hindenburg and others urged him to do so.
This is a good story, but the graphics might be Much more useful, by highlighting and identifying individual ships as they are mentioned, along with their visual arcs.
well the USN gets newer BB's !
With Arkansas and New York being unsalvageable as presented in this scenario, it's a safe bet that during the Washington Treaty negotiations, the US would've almost certainly insisted on being allowed to complete Washington and South Dakota to make up for them. (I wonder what names would've been assigned to BB-56 and BB-57 if those names were taken out of circulation.)
@@RedXlV New York and Arkansas?
Due to limited oil supplies, only the older coal fired 12" US battleships were sent to join the British Fleet
RedXlV I suppose they’d recycle the names of old pre-dreadnoughts, as they did with many other battleships. We might even see a new USS Maine.
@@RedXlV Don't forget the loss of Florida too
USS Texas running like hell to keep up with the British-that would be a one hell of a scene, I tell you!
Absolutely fantastic. I’d love to hear more of these on other battles like Leyte gulf, midway etc. Imagine if Yamato and Musashi had actually engaged.
Great channel
You might be interested in this then: www.chuckhawks.com/task_force_34.htm
I love how New Zealand comes through unscathed again.
Other than Crete and Gallipoli you're peerless 😂
probably the most brutal naval battle ever
Did Warspite ram anything in any of your games? my money is one one of the k class subs that went missing.
We are actually pretty convinced that's the case. 5th BS went all-in on the charge and the tracks from the scenario that had this happen do have their tracks intersect with some of the K-class.
Officially they're lost to 'unknown causes', but given history...
EDIT: in the unused parts of some scenarios Warspite did get in a ram, when the HSF went full kamikaze Warspite took multiple hits and was probably going to go down in the next salvo or two, so it rammed Kronprinz with the aim to either stay afloat by being stuck together intake it down with it.
Even on the table top, she is one bad tempered ship.
@@shoootme It is a law of the multiverse that if there is a ship, and that ship is called Warspite, then that ship shall achieve great and terrible deeds. In those few realities where it is even possible to kill such a ship as Warspite, then she will make damned sure you regret killing her.
Such is the nature of the Grand Old Lady.
@@Drachinifel "Sir, I think we hit something."
"So what else is new?"
@@bairdrew "Mean Old Bitch" is probably more accurate considering her record.
Something I've noted in the accounts of most large period actions in the north sea is the environmental response to massive amounts of gunfire and hard steaming coal fired vessels operating in a restricted area for a significant period. (Not just the actual Jutland account). Visibility goes to hell after an hour or so. Difficult to wargame.
18:21 WITNESS ME
Connor McLernon MEDIOCRE
Thank you for this terrific video! I really enjoyed it. Have you ever thought of wargaming Jutland if Jellicoe had turned towards Scheer instead of away in the face of the German torpedo attack?
Haven't tried that one before, might be worth a go.
18:36 The first ever case of rolling coal.
Yeah and the coal was supposed to stay in the boilers that time too..
I'd love to know incidentally how you do an engine rebuild on a clapped out superdreadnought - how'd you get what's left of the boilers & engines out to replace them?
are we sure that the one K class that got turned around and shot at the aft end of the Grand Fleet was not French crewed??
Mais non! 😂
#q&a I’m curious as to what you think might have happened is Halsey had decided to put into place TG-34 in the San Bernardino strait as planned and what the resulting battle my have looked like. #theworldwonders
I think it would be interesting and a much closer fight then most would think
@@TheDiablotak It does appear that Task Force 34 and Center Force would've been pretty evenly-matched numerically. Though qualitatively I'd give Iowa, New Jersey, Washington, and Alabama the clear overall edge compared to Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna. Yamato was the only modern BB Kurita had, and the fact that Kongos were no match for the North Carolina and South Dakota classes, let alone Iowas, was well established.
RedXlV true but for me the really interesting aspect is the cruiser fight since Kurita possessed an 8 to 5 advantage in numbers and 6 of his cruisers were 8inch armed heavy cruisers while the US only had 2 8inch armed cruisers. I will grant the individual quality advantage to the US in terms of fire control and damage control but the sheer numbers and weight of fire might be a turning point for the Japanese. I suspect the US would more than likely prevail in the BB fight but would they be able to do so before the cruiser fight was won and the survivors through their own shells and torpedos in against the US battle line?
On paper they would have been evenly matched, but in reality, a bunch of DDEs and CVEs managed to chase Kurita away. I don't see the Center Force standing their ground once they spy the 16 inch guns of the four US BBs aimed at them. They would have turned tail and it would have been a stern chase.
@@glennricafrente58 Late in his life, Kurita admitted that he'd retreated once he could find a justifiable reason, because he knew the war was already lost and didn't want to throw away more lives. He wasn't looking for the stereotypical fight to the last man that Imperial Japanese officers had been indoctrinated to seek out.
Just after midnight, Warspite sets a bad example and teaches the yanks how to bully cruisers.
Rumor has it Chuck Norris could tow the Texas to a speed of over 50 knots.
The boogyman looks under HIS bed for Chuck Norris😱
Mutiny or massacre. Mutiny wins everytime for me
Unless you come from a culture of military honor.ie japan,England and elite military forces.
Have you considered writing a book. I am serious you have talent that could be developed into something special.
Thought about it, don't know where I'd find the time at the moment though :(
@@Drachinifel fair I would love to see more your a great storyteller
Maybe an audio-book :)
@@Drachinifel what game system did you use?
@@Drachinifel
Maybe a book about the battle?
you ve just explained why this battle never occurred..... no sane people would enter such a scenario... drown burn or blasted to pieces... not much of a choice... close study shows battleships went to considable efforts not to fight fleet to the death. I have suspicions that elements of the british fleet avoided destroying the High Seas Fleet units at Jutland.
just their commanding officer
Actually breathtaking especially as each side attempts to do things that might have happened at Jutland with unexpected or absolutely expected outcomes. Thanks. More like history and than history.
Btw which wargaming system did you use? Naval Thunder?,got the rulebook but never got managed to try it out.
With my lack of proper WW1/WW2 naval history and playing WoWs, when you talked about the Grosser Kerfurst, I was HOLY...the Grand Fleet survived facing that thing?! I was wondering how that could happen, especially cause I thought it was just a paper ship lol.
Wrong Grosser Kurfürst :) The WoWs version is a paper WWII BB, this one was a real 1913 BB, König class.
Lol ya I gathered as much from the context, it was just the first thing to come to mind, then thinking about it in that particular battle for kicks and giggles.
No mention of German reconnaissance capabilities via Zeppelin are taken into account in this scenario. Weather permitting, undoubtedly the Zeppelins would have been working with both U-boat forces and the German High Seas Fleet.
Q&A - Did you say what game/system you used for this war gaming? All manual or computer assisted?
Look. Even the fanatical Japanese at the Leyte Gulf retreated when odds became too great. Your projected battle is far more devastating than it would have been. Tsushima was such a battle because the Russians had no choice but to fight it out to Vladivostok or surrender/go into internment and the Japanese ships were significantly faster. Surigao Strait was a fanatical sacrifice by Nishimura but as soon as he was out of action captains of his remaining ships decided to retreat, and so did Shima. Germans had a safe place to retreat to and would have used the option when it became too hot - Jutland-style. They would have accepted a line battle for longer this time as it was a battle for honor and there would be more casualties sure (not least because of Beatty's agressiveness which would surely be greeted with some torpedo hits by German destroyers as they covered the retreat) but remember - Hipper was in charge of the High Seas Fleet and his command would be a repeat of the "death ride" he performed at climax at Jutland but on a grand scale - followed by retreat and abandonment of crippled ships (Dogger Bank style).
@@StonedDragons That is not realistic. The Germans would have always made sure their line of retreat is left open. They had scout planes, light cruisers, destroyers and zeppelins, smoke could be seen from afar. Never during the whole WW1 did that happen.
@@StonedDragons The German ships don't have to be faster than the British in order to avoid being cut off. The British Grand Fleet was a few knots faster but it would not enable them to cut the High Seas Fleet from Wilhelmshaffen. The Germans would have to be totally blind and utterly stupid to allow that to happen. That they were not.
That was fascinating. Thank you. Amazing to hear that the K Class Submarines were likely to be useful :-)
5th battle squadron: ok guys let’s go in
Uss Texas engines burning themselves apart: get back here you son of a biiiiiiii
5th battle squadron: what the fuck is going on
Harwich is pronounced Ha-rich (the W is silent).
I think you'll find it's pronounced "'ar-witch" in a proper accent :P
This is great! Thanks from the state of New York.
He is one of finest channels without doubt 🇬🇧🙏🇺🇸📚
"it is the grand fleet" those words enough to make any proud britain weep with joy.
this was an amazing war game i loved this video and finally the way jutland should have gone
Aka “The riders of Rohan had arrived.”
Naval Battle: Has a primary component of the battle, indeed the first shots fired, not include the USS Texas
USS Texas: And I took personal offence to that.
I would be interested in a video just detailing exactly how these wargaming scenarios function. I’ve never participated in anything like this, and I’m very curious what the process is like.
"Warspite is battered all over, but mostly in fighting shape."
I would expect nothing less.
Yeah, that seems a likely outcome. As much as I think the HSF is cool, there were just too many Allied capital ships. I also totally sympathize with anybody striking their colors after the pounding those ships took.
The only way a last ride of the HSF could've accomplished anything would be if they managed to avoid fighting the assembled Grand Fleet. Like in that one scenario where the Grand Fleet went in the wrong direction because of a signal error and the HSF mauled some cruisers before retreating home.
Bit late to this, but I loved the video, was especially nice to see some actual wargaming going on too.
Have to agree with Bufoferata, a gripping and well told encounter. Admiral Scheer can't possibly have hoped to come out of it with any better results. Good to hear Warspite come out of it so well, has to be my favourite ship of that period. Should have become a museum ship instead of being scrapped!
@Alexander Challis Thanks for your response. It was fascinating reading. I can see the logic in repurposing ships material but I had expected a more sentimental approach to exceptional vessels. Still by that logic our waterways would have been clogged with particularly unique examples of innovation. Thanks again.
"5 minute guide to warships"
*34:45*
Love the vids btw
Q&A Question: will you be doing more wargaing stile videos is sound fun
Thinking about what you said here, and how hopeless a last stand was, I think the german crews at scapa scuttling they're own ships, is a much better coup de grace than this suicide.
Definitely a great video, and I'd love to see more of these in the future (though obviously they take a lot more time and work than most of your others).
I'd love to hear how people reacted in that one scenario where Seymour hoisted the wrong signal. The people playing the British commanders must've been *pissed.*
It was quite the sight to behold. Everyone on the British side was getting suspicious as they could hear the other two scenarios being run at the same time engaging, and they'd done nothing but sail.
Then they got reports from Tyrwhitt that the Thames force was being engaged by the HSF, checked their position, and rage ensured.
@@Drachinifel
Rather than having Seymour shot and dumped overboard, I'd suggest keel-hauling him in that scenario.
@@RedXlV He was a coward he was a good flag lieutenant in peacetime Helgoland Bight Dogger Bank and Jutland he was a coward and purblind idiot
16:55 Since when is the Dutch coast occupied by the Germans?
The Netherlands were neutral during the first war, mind you. And Texel is part of the Netherlands.