Should Noctua make this STAND FAN?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- There once was a product on Noctua roadmap of upcoming products, it was called the desk fan. It was always a year or more out however, it never came to market. The newest Noctua roadmap of upcoming products doesn't even list it anymore. Some time ago I made one of these mythical Noctua Desk fans and it worked really well, So well I thought what if Noctua did the same thing but to a 16 inch stand fan.
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Full-size Cheater when?
M E G A F A N
gigacheater
YES!
Someone should do this
Idk how about never?
that particular fan isn't meant for static pressure, so if you were to design new blades for it, you might be able to push a great deal more flow
actually it is because it has big blades like a pressure fan does
ON THIS SEASON OF FAN SHOWDOWN: 16 INCH STAND FAN
This time next year, video title: "I made a Roots blower to sleep easy at night"
Also the induction motors are built to a dime, have little torque and can overheat if you start driving them harder than designed.
Let's face it with regards to where this stub will eventually bare fruit: The Major Hardware branded consumer and industrial grade fan product line that will blow away the competition.
Hear me out... a multi-video project of using the motor from a cheap box fan to print/build a box-fan-sized noctua with the shroud. Keep in mind I think 3d printing the whole thing would be silly. You could make the box out of plywood and use hard foam insulation to fill in the area to be a tight fit to a fan. I do think the blades and shroud parts would have to be printed and designed to probably screw or dovetail together and then be glued for reinforcement.
That sounds insane and I like it...
Just 3D print the whole thing. Do a crossover with Ivan Miranda.
A standard box fan is a 20" square about 4.25" thick, so that would be an A50x110.
Yes, print it on a box fan or those Vornado fans. You keep the finger guard, and blows really strong.
The things we come up with when it’s so hot outside. I created a ducting system to exhaust out 2 of our PCs heat out the window. I 3d printed the elbows, couplers and shrouds and just bought the plastic vent tubing and a window vent kit from Amazon.
For years I've been wanting to build my PCs in a cabinet, one specially made for it with ducting to pull air through in to the PCs. With the fans at the inside end of the ducting and then sound isolate the duct so the noise is lower (like how you see they did it in the latest Gamers Nexus video with the ducting for the anechoic chamber, and then have the same at the exhaust, but have it lead to the wall air vent. And have an opening near the vent that can be closed or opened depending on if I want the heat to stay inside or not. Just to get a very quiet room, not that my PCs are loud, but when recording sound, their sound is picked up, and to stop it from being extra hot during summer when I use them.
Yeah, definitely would like to see this done on a Vornado 600 series fan. A box fan would be quite interesting, too, but probably difficult to print a shroud large enough for.
The problem with exhausting computer heat directly out the window is that you create a negative pressure system within your house and the outside air will be leaking in from wherever it can. So if the outside air is warmer than your PC's exhaust air, that's not a great solution.
I printed out the 120mm version right after your first video, and i still use it all the time in summer (bought a 5V Noctua fan and attached it to a USB power supply to make things easy). It's so great, much better than just the fan by itself for cooling.
Arctic literally sells one of their p12 Max fans as a desk fan.
Yep. Made my own version (closer to Noctua) attached it to a stand and slapped a Delta fan. It literally sends air across the whole room without any trouble
Btw if you want to get rid of the mesh lines on the curved edges, import the step file into the slicer and enable arc printing, might improve print speeds and smooth the model out. Fun project though.
Sounds like he did the CAD work himself, so he could have just forced a higher resolution for the export.
My family for years, in Northern Virginia which gets very very hot, had a pair of the biggest box fans they could prop in the stairs, one pointing up from the basement and the other one at the bottom of the main floor to circulate a little cool air in the upper level upper level, as long as both fans were not running very hard, and the AC was not set it 50 it was actually pretty consistently cool throughout the house, and didn't use very much energy.
I think that you should do a full-size cheater fan like so many people have said below. You should also pick the best fan blades on your leader board up scale them to fit the fan.
This hit different now that Noctua is actually bringing this to market
I always look forward to seeing your new videos! Keep up the great work!
Very cool to see you are on similar thinking paths. I am working on turning a box fan into a 520mm aRGB PC fan.
I had my HVAC system completely redone about a year ago. Zoning made such a huge difference!
Incidentally there are some other solutions for "smart vents" such as Keen Home and Flair that can retrofit an older system and even allow for per-room zoning which is neat! Though they're not really a good option with modern variable speed HVAC systems.
Excellent! Saved me a ton of typing. Next video, How I adjusted My plenums then added zoning.
I purchased an ecobee smart thermostat and it came with 2 sensor. Omw sensor is in the kids room and the second in my bedroom plus the main thermostat downstairs. It has this cool feature were it can follow you, so example when I go to bed the ac will run to cool down the too rooms and not the whole house. You can find it at home Depot and usually there is a rebate.
I retired in Greece. Having inverters in every room vs central hear and air is so so much better. You're not wasting energy in unused/rarely used rooms.
not only is my bedroom on the end of the duct line, but I also have a westward facing window so I get a lot of sun in my room during the day and it warms the room up significantly even despite having A/C. So what I did was take a 80mm USB powered fan and screwed it down to a plastic vent cover and created a DIY vent booster. Doesn't make a significant difference, but it helps.
They released it!
Isn't it better to open windows on the second floor and put fans pointing out so it creates negative pressure and pills cool air from downstairs?
Or an attic fan. Yes.
Side note, the fan you want is a Vornado, they're designed to send air over distance and a use case is exactly that (pushing air from lower to upper).
Now you can reverse it and shrink a Vornado down into a PC fan.
I was just writing out a recommendation for the Vornado fans when I noticed your post. I have a few. The airflow is more beam shaped.
The real solution is separate HVAC systems for 1st/2nd floors. Second runner up is oversized and zoned supply/return ducts with dampers and variable capacity. That way you get the air to and from where it's needed and also it can throttle capacity better suiting demand. Production builder installed "zoned" systems are always dreadfully designed and installed causing airflow starvation, frozen coils, poor efficiency, etc.
@@zjeepgozweeln I believe you, in my experience most HVAC installers are barely competent monkeys.
As to your second paragraph, if I had my own home and the funds, it would absolutely be a mini split inverter heat pump set up. Thermostat in every room, with every room being at the proper temp for activities in that room. I could keep my bedroom at 66-67°F, living room at 70, the boys room at 72, etc. Everybody could be happy.
Vornado has recently been usurped as the 'king of fans' by the dreo. Sad to say really, Dreo is quieter, moves more air, and uses a little over half the power to do so. Also it's way easier to clean.
Can't speak to longevity, only had it a month where my vornado, well, she's been running almost 24/7 for a few years without stopping for longer than it takes to clean it, so a trooper to be sure, but, it's not really difficult to make a long lasting fan and, if anything fails, it'll undoubtedly be the electronics which will make for a nice bonus esp project lol
@@brianargo4595 Expensive proposition to retrofit that in unfortunately, and a fairly difficult thing to DIY. Great choice if you're building though. Combine it with insulating all of the walls, not just exterior walls, and you wind up with a very efficient setup.
major floor-fan upgrade, this thing is wicked!
Cool project!
To even out the temperature in a house, make sure your HVAC is pulling sure in only from downstairs and outputting mostly upstairs. Then run the fan of the HVAC to circulate air even when the AC is off / between AC cycles. Done modern thermostats even have features to allow running that fan a percentage of the time/hour, which makes it a little more cost effective
Wonderful idea :D
my solution when I was on the very tail end of a central air run:
I took a couple of AC powered Server Rack fans and hung them below my vent. When I wanted to steal warm or cold air from the rest of the house I'd kick em on. Worked fabulously
Very interesting work Mr
That tape measure throw technique was clean brother.
I've developed my own tricks with window fans. For example, I have a box fan in a window near a corner wall and door, and if I angle the door right it will blow airflow my way. The door covers about 1/2 of the fan when opened parallel to it. This is actually a very good trick, because the air gets pushed into the door, then spreads out toward the ceiling, which helps to move hot air and cool the ceiling. A way to simulate this is to get something like short room divider you can place in front of the fan. When the air hits it, it will spread out in all directions, and you can angle one part of the room divider to direct the flow toward you. Since my fan is in a corner, it pushes air toward the corner and loops around, which also pushes air from the part that isn't covered by the door, giving me direct airflow even though the fan isn't facing me.
So basically, if you want to focus a fan that isn't facing you, use an L shaped apparatus around it. For me this is important, because I am able to push in cool air from the window without having to actually sit in front of the fan. And since I have windows that open from the top, I leave them open a bit, so when cool air is pushed in, hot air near the ceiling convects out the top of the windows, which makes a massive difference on hot days and keeps it quite comfortable. One thing about cooling is even though direct fan flow feels nice, if you aren't cooling the surrounding air, it's not going to help as much, so you need not just air blowing over you, but also air exchange with the outside. With my trick I can do that with a single box fan.
In fact, I cool an entire floor with a single box fan and convection tricks. I find that intake is best for most of the day, while exhaust is better in the evenings, to ensure cool air is sucked in from every open window. Intake cools a single room faster, while exhaust cools every room but slower, so it's good to use like that in the evenings when things cool off, so you're getting cool air in every window from a single fan blowing as an exhaust, which gives it a greater effect at night. But during day when it's hotter, using a fan as an exhaust has less of an effect, and intake works better for cooling a single room.
I would definitely love a desk fan showdown, the blades on those are actually easily replacable and I feel like a lot of them are really not that well optimized.
I swear you can easily get around 50x the efficiency of that fan, because I upgraded from a fan that looks just like that (same blade design even) and the new one uses like 8x less power while blowing way more air and being way quieter... the difference is honestly mind boggling. it blows air much much further too.
ruclips.net/video/q3FH3boEu04/видео.htmlsi=syIwJ5897O1ye4Zz
Yes! I want to see a mega blade showdown now. 🙂
So having moving air feels colder than stagnant air. Which is why, even in a hot room a fan helps make it feel cooler. If your like me and have a hot face then having air blown directly at it is more comfortable. I generally feel colder in my legs than my chest and my face always feels hot. Even when it's 75+ in my room I cover my legs with a blanket, even while wearing sweat pants while sitting at my desk, but enjoy a fan cooling my face and torso. Idk maybe I'm just weird 😂
I spoke with an hvac guy about this, and he basically was explaining that the blower doesn’t have enough static pressure to reach the furthest vents (re:upstairs). Obvious suggestion is to close the vents downstairs, but I always wanted to try adding some noctuas to the vent to draw the air out.
I’d love to see you test that - can we just add 120mm fans to our hvac vents to improve the airflow at the vents further from the blower?
My favorite popsicle as a kid was the Banana Fudge Bomb Pop.
Heresey!
Get a nest thermostat and set the fan to run every hour. It helps a lot.
You could probably print it half height to make it lighter and still get a significant boost in directed air thrust. I don't think you need that fancy design though. Just a regular cylindrical cone with slightly reducing diameter would do. Probably only need to be 6 inches.
Your house has forced air, I assume? Just cover up part of each downstairs (& basement) outlet and/or intake. That way the AC will push more of the cold air into the upstairs areas. You just have to remember to revert that modification for the winter, or heat will accumulate upstairs.
Hehe, it fits on the big fan; nice!
Yes, please make a video where you 3D print new fan blades for your stand fan!
This is why my parent's 2 story house has 2 ACs, so the upstairs and downstairs are controlled separately and the compressors aren't worked as hard.
You can also setup some zoning to turn on the upstairs separately from downstairs with only 1 AC.
Honestly, pull that thing off it's stand, or get a floor fan of the same size, and use that. The air on the floor is cooler anyway. Just curious, did you try setting the fan on your HVAC system to ON, instead of AUTO, so that it runs all the time and has a chance to balance the air temps?
My personal solution to the differing temps is to simply turn the AC fan to ON rather than auto. Let it circulate your house air, it will bring the cooler air from downstairs back upstairs.
It was the reason why i start watch your channel. I dont even have a pc 😂
For one thing stock pedestal fans have an open cage that is open all the way around the blades, so a lot of air is lost as it slips off the tips of the blades and through the open cage, sealing the outer area of the fan stops that and helps direct more of the air through the front of the fan. This is similar to how a box fan moves more air. You could probably get a measurable increase just by doing that. Id like to see that done and tested as well.
I forget the video I saw it in, but I did see a guy hack up some thin plastic sheeting and attach it with zip ties to the inside of the cage with very tight clearance on the stock blades and he saw fairly significant performance/noise gains. I'd bet if you squared off the blades and did this, you could probably make it even better. Cutting the blades though... you'd have to use a big pair of calipers or a string/pen to get the radius right, and then cut them with a hot knife, likely sanding to final shape.
A doable weekend afternoon project to be sure.
@@jttech44 one could probably buy a cheap wooden yard stick, remove the cap nut that secures the blades to the shaft of the fan, drill a hole into the end of the yard stick the diameter of the motor shaft and slip it on. Then measure out and drill another hole on the yard stick for a pen/sharpie. Insert the sharpie and rotate to mark the blades if you were going that route
Haha, a checkerboard pattern, nice!
I commented on your old video regarding this, but it would be awesome if you made a 200mm Noctua Fan version of this!!
0:40 - Get a Nest thermostat. Get the Nest temperature sensors that are sold separately. Place them on the other floors of your house. Set thermostat to reference those sensors as needed.
That looks hilarious. You should see if Matthias Wandel would be interested in the shroud. Hes always doing random little experiments with fans and the like.
Yeah... I need this but tweaked and tuned for my lasko box fans. Also add corner rounds to eliminate the blade wash/suction at the corners.
Putting a curtain at the top of my stairs substantially improved the performance of my AC. There is a pocket that runs along the curtain's bottom edge that I put some old VGA cables in to keep it weighed down but flexible.
Great video! Maybe printing thinner walls, possibly vase mode, would have produced a fan that wasn't so top heavy.
Hey man, something that would be fairly easy for you is to go into your attic or crawl space and run an extra return air for your downstairs room. Install the return air box across the room from the supply, and run it to the return plenum on your HVAC unit with some flex duct.
You should experiment with this in a Whole House Fan configuration by attaching the fan to the attic door with a box fan.
Leave windows open down stairs and the box fan will pull cool fresh air through the house and take the hot air into the attic.
Make the same but for a box fan. You can make an angle bracket to hold it at the right angle too.
I had that problem with downstairs being the wrong temperature, just got a ducted fan and 20ft of aluminum duct, fairly effective since it can move the air directly unlike a freestanding fan
I want to see you build a bank of nine noctuas in a square together with either all of them having that shroud on them, or a new enlarged shroud that's built for a 360x360 sized mount, your choice! You would probably need to modify the shape a bit to get peak airflow out of all the fans together, but it'd definitely be an interesting project all the same. I used to use a 4x4 block of those cheap coolermaster fans you used to be able to get in boxes of 4, that are all black and cheap as fuck, in the window to pull cool air into my room. I wired it all up to an old power supply that I didn't trust to do anything else, and it was actually surprisingly effective. I doubled it up and put one in the other window as exhaust for full room air exchange back before I had an AC, and it helped a ton on hot days because as soon as it cooled down in the evening the room was immediately as cool as the outside temp, and it produced very little noise since they were all like 1300ish RPM fans at most. I think something like this would be perfect for your needs to move air upstairs so long as you shape it in a way that doesn't get in the way, or figure out a good way to mount it somehow. I had a window frame and window to brace my contraption with, so it was fairly easy to pull off, but you might need to actually just build a bank of them across the top of the stairway or something if you want them out of the way. The more of them you get in an array together though that's more square or rectangle shaped, the further you'll be able to throw air, so food for thought there. Also speakers work the same way, anything that moves air can be arrayed in this way to increase output
Awesome.
It has already been mentioned to just have your HVAC fan on, but many systems have a "recirc" setting that runs the fan slowly all the time to even out multi-levl temps, but then run at normal speeds when the system is cooling or heating. Not sure if a 3-D print will be needed for this however! Great show!
I'm tempted to suggest (and I'm sure I'm probably not the first out of the 175 comments at time of posting) upscaling some of the other Fan Showdown rigs to see how they work on the larger scale fan...
If I were you, I would get a house exhaust fan setup in your atic, it works really well to pull the cool air up and get rid of the hot air trapped up in the rafters
I have come up with different ways to move the air around the house, and at one point I had a swamp cooler for part of the year. When running it I got the best cooling when I would open the windows at the far end of the house 1 inch, and the attic access a few inches so most the air would push up and cool the hottest part of the house, the roof. With the windows cracked open a little some air still flowed into those rooms. A cooler just moves air and an HVAC is the same, in a different way.
Using a fan to "push" air from one area to the other as you were explaining usually doesn't work as well as you think. All it does is create turbulence, cause it's blowing air into air that has nowhere to go. What you need is an "exchange" of air. Some way to move the hot upstairs air downstairs, and the cool downstairs air up. Non interfering. As impractical as it sounds, if you got a Noctua fan connected to a 3" pvc pipe upstairs that [somehow] went thru the floor, or just ended downstairs, the air would exchange, over time. The HVAC would do the rest.
It helps when the HVAC in a multi story home has intakes on every floor so ALL the air got exchanged by the system, but homes are built cheap, and sold high.
I think that was a great idea and if you find a way to make it more stable you should use it so long as you can convince your kids/pets to not destroy it.
I printed a remix to yours after seeing your first video, i love it i have 2 120mm and 1 200mm fans with shrouds that work like a champ. 200mm is the best size.
I want noctua fan blades in this!! :D
i was kind of hoping to find the files for it xD. not sure why since i dont really need it but would be fun. gona print the desk version soon tho
If you take both sides of the protective grill off, you'll get significantly more airflow. I did this in my freshman year dorm where there was no AC. A lot quieter too.
Next seasons Fan Showdown should be desk/floor fan blades hahaha
Sweet setup. I have coworkers who have 2 zone ac, upstairs, and downstairs. Since cold air is more dense, if you don't have a separate zone on your 2nd floor, it's cheaper to just blow the cold air up the stairs.
Your basement is colder because the walls down there have more thermal mass; therefore, the temperature is more stable down there. [Personal note, I miss having a basement 😢]
The only thing I would recommend is to tape the seal around the fan shroud to keep it from falling off.
Or when Costco has the Dewalt shop fan on sale, get it and use that to move the cold air. Lol 😊
What an interesting design! I wonder, if you were to seal off the 4 air-exit holes, maybe it could also work as great chips and dip bowl?
As far as I know, fans are designed to create turbulent flow. So putting a simple tube or cone like shroud on it made from paper with parallel deflectors inside would help you get a more directional and longer reach of airflow. Or if you want to go crazy with it, you can make a shroud of a tube in a tube in a tube, where in a big tube there's three or more smaller ones, filling out the area, then in those, there are also three or more smaller tubes, and so on. Both shrouds should cover at least the plane of the rotors to be effective.
For the flow to reach further, you would either need a more powerful fan or make the flow more laminar.
Although, I think the best solution would be to drive out hot air in the upper level instead of trying to push up colder air from the lower level, as that would be more efficient.
EPIC!!!!!
you should add a shroud on the side of the fan guard too so you'll catch any air escaping due to centrifugal force and gain a bit of speed too
New fan show down, building fan blades to improve this standing fan!
Sorry it went so well! I liked the video anyway, lol
Nice solution! If you had a way to do that with a vertical fan too I'd be interested, Although I'm surprised you didn't come up with a better way to secure it to the fan that would be harder to dislodge.
Just FYI, there are commercial fans that go in the duct work for situations like this where you have unequal cooling within a house. Typically, a multi story house should have an AC unit for each level so that each level is cooled separately. Since you only have one AC unit, you can get a fan that mounts in the duct, and draws air from the evaporator and forces it into the hot room. Doing it is really only good for one or two hot rooms. Otherwise, the layout of the duct work, placement of the thermostat, and addition of flow baffles would be needed. Another option would be to add a mini-split heat pump to the one room. It's a higher cost up front, but would save you money in the long term.
Either the duct fan or mini split CAN be a DIY install. You must know how to properly run electrical lines, or call a contractor out for that part. The duct fan is super easy. You just need to figure out the size of flexible line coming off the main hard box to your room. Then, with a fan of that size, cut the flexible duct in a convenient location. The fan needs to be supported and have power. To cut the flex, first put down a wrap or two of duct tape at the cut, then cut the outer fiberglass sleeve in the middle of the tape. Slide the insulation back (you can temperaraly hold it in place with a small piece of tape on either side of the cut) and locate the metal spine of the inner liner. Cut this spine where the fan is going to mount with sire cutters rated for steel wire, then cut the rest of the liner to separate it. Slide the liner over either side of the fan, making sure the fan is facing the proper direction so the air flow is into the room. Secure the inner liner to the fan with appropriate zip ties. Don't skimp on these. Get HVAC ones rated for temperature and has a metal rather than a plastic ratchet tooth. The fan inserts as a coupler, and should take 2 zip ties on each end. Add a layer of duct tape to ensure a proper seal, then slide the insulation down and do the same thing. Now would be the be time to secure the fan to something solid, or hang it with strapping. Hanging with strapping takes more time, but helps isolate the sound. Last, the fan needs to be wired. This can be always on, have a switch in the applicable room, or have a pair of thermal probes to automatically turn it on and off when a sufficient thermal difference between the probes.
AC infinity makes products like this, with inverters and thermostat controls. Probably other options too, that's just what I've used. Works a peach.
Can't answer that question yet. Making a different fan blade for the stand-up fan to maximize airflow would be great!
I would say that a 30% improvement is definitely a win... 👍😎
Oh god, A stand fan showdown
I'd love to see custom blades on one of those round industrial fans
OMG I love that you even thought to try this. How's the X1C gotcha feeling vs. the V400?
Shroud showdown❤
The best solution I've seen to the issue you're having of heat getting trapped upstairs at night is having a fan set into the attic hatch that pulls the hot air up into the attic space, and a vent fan in the attic to dump that hot air outside.
What you do, is you put a pipe with a fan that blows from the ceiling down to wherever yoou want it. That helps a lot.
The other thing - ceiling fans, those are super efficient and help a lot
If you simply block off a few registers on the first floor, particularly in the main room(s) where the thermostat is, it will force more cool air upstairs. What you are aiming for is thermostat needing to wait for that cool air to come down the stairs in order to shut off.
I used to do this with inline dampers I had accessible near my furnace. I had the damper arm positions labeled "Summer" and "Winter" so I didn't get confused which ones should be open or closed during AC season or furnace season.
You have to be careful doing this, because your blower is rated for a given static pressure, and if you exceed that by closing too many registers your blower motor life will be significantly decreased. Best to know your rating and install a gauge to make sure you're within specifications.
Or, don't, and your HVAC guy will be stoked for the extra work you'll have to pay him for, and, it's an easy job to boot, no crawling around with the creepy crawlies like he's used to.
I find that pulling hot air out of a room cools it better, so maybe putting the fan at the top to blow down will be better.
A new fan show down season?
Would be awesome to showdown different fan blade designs for the standing house fan. With some strict rules implemented like how racing evolves into the rules they are now.
I.e. 3-4 blades only, must be with mm size, etc etc.
Would be cool to see this done on a small box fan or something.
I need a bad ass fan for sleeping. I want all the tornado on my face
Cool idea, what about making a 9 bladed fan to replace the inside of the holmes fan to see if in increases air flow? Great video👍🏽
Get a Vornado stand or floor fan. Those things are FANtastic at projecting a large volume of air. I have used them for years.
Fan showdown: stand fan edition.
Fan Showdown 2: Stand Fan
I think it's time for giant fan showdown
neat..., would recommend looking into mini splits for zone temp control, and or some adjustable vents like from Flair. saved about half on my elec bill by switching to mini splits. (roughly 100-150 a month). It paid for itself in like a year.
Just print a BIG bracket to make your fan stay at the exact angle that makes the fan point up the stairs! Ideally it would be slip-on so it can be taken off for "normal" fan use.
A Noctua clip fan would be great.
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not going to sift through the comments to find out, check the settings on the HVAC panel. See if you can run the fan constantly at a low speed. A guy I know has that function. It kept his house at an even temperature and used less energy since the fan is not only at a lower speed but only had to maintain the speed.
Interesting experiment. Maybe reprinting with LW-PLA would make it light enough for regular use.
The project is kool!
Did you know you can run your house AC blower fan to circulate the air in your house even when the cooling compressor is off?
This is meant to balance the temperature between rooms by continuously mixing and circulating air.
Hopefully you have a programmable thermostat so the blower is not running 24/7 causing extra wear on your system.
0:36 there is this wonderful system you can buy that has duct doors that can shutoff the ducts on the ground floor and send the cool air up to the second floor.
Seems like the oscillation mechanism has given out or almost given out with the way it just flops around. Even with that extra weight, it should be able to stay in place.
Next, add some remote-controlled *servo* *motors* to the *downstairs* *vents* to shut some of them off at night.
Try Weld On 4SC. I know it's not much different than 4, but it's the gold standard of permanently affixing two plastic objects.
We need a box fan version