As always, enjoyed the video. We’ve got to get out there sometime and see this for ourselves. The 4-4-0 vintage style locomotives have always been my favorite
Greetings. I enjoyed this version of the several you have produced and really appreciated your extensive discussion on colors and the use of Russing bluing and American bluing. Thanks for all you two folks do for us. - Dean from Minnesota
+KampferDouch3nn The upside of forced retirement. We are off to Chicago next month to see the ultimate collector collection!! Guy even has his own 1870 locomotive and coach. OK, we've seen that before, but in the LIVING ROOM?? Next to the merry-go-round and the fire truck?
Fascinating! Trying to discover the correct colors from old black and white photos is indeed, trying! As a bit of a history enthusiast, loved all the historical information especially the Disney connection! Way to go Ward Kimball!
Sir, I am totally amazed by your knowledge as I have viewed this and many other segments! I live in Utah and I hope that someday our paths will cross. Please keep doing segments every week as I look forward to them
Never knew there was such controversy over the color schemes, but then, I always wondered how the toy companies decided to paint the models of the various rail cars and locos. I guess I thought there were research books accessible by folks with lots of money that could hire or buy these books that give all the answers to questions like, "how do you make an accurate Jupiter, and what colors was it painted?" It's a small surprise to me the answer is, "nope, and I don't know." Oh well, at least now I feel a LOT better about my models. Thanks for making this video and I WILL watching more of your videos on YT! B c'ing u!
Interesting presentation. Let me add a bit more - as someone who worked with Jim Wilke back in 1994 to revise the earlier replica paint jobs and has stayed involved since then. The blue selected in 1994, as subsequent research has show, is far too light; it should be a much darker (and richer) Caledonian blue. Commentary in the video also discusses some of the other improvement, and other question, that have come up as more information comes to light over the years. On the "film" used in 1869, it is actually a wet plate emulsion that had to be mixed by the photographer in the field, coated on a sheet of glass in a dark tent, and then exposed and developed before it dried. Depending on conditions, that might be somewhere around 15 minutes, plus or minus - and sometimes significantly less. Further, a wet plate emulsion is actually LESS sensitive than orthochromatic film, so your ortho filter does not accurately reflect what a wet plate "sees" - and an ortho filter is only approximate anyway. Further, since the emulsion was mixed in the field by the photographer, it was subject to all kinds of variables, including the quality of the water used, the freshness of the chemicals, the particular choices of chemicals (there were many variations) and their relative ratios, as well as the skill of the individual photographer. All of these produce variables in the resulting emulsion, and how it "reads" a scene. Further, lighting of a scene, and of individual parts of a scene, can have a huge effect. I've seen many cases were I know that several surfaces are the same color, but because of lighting they can be rendered in many different shades of gray. In sum, while a person can make educated guesses about colors rendered in black and white photos, numerous variables can effect the rendering into black and white, including printing in addition to the original exposure. In point of fact, there were three photographers at Promontory on May 10, 1869, and a fourth within a month. AJ Russell was the official Union Pacific photographer; AA Hart was the official Central Pacific photographer; and Charles Savage was a Salt Lake City photographer who came up for the event. In addition, William Henry Jackson visited Promontory and the surrounding country within a month. All four were shooting stereo negatives, plus Russell was shooting large "Imperial" plates. We also know that Hart was having trouble with his chemestry, and that Russell and Savage helped him. Turning to Russia iron, we actually have many samples of it - it is a dark gray color with blue, green, red or brown highlights depending on the quality of the Russia iron, and on the surrounding environment. It is also highly variable in appearance depending on the angle of viewing and other factors - it can sometimes appear very light or very dark. In a series of photos taken of two samples, one lying on top of the other, taken around noon, and in color, we have the two samples as a dark gray (the "actual" base color), and very light appearing (lots of reflectivity), as a very dark color, and in several photos one sample being dark gray while the other sample was very dark. We walked in circles around the samples taking photos, never touching the samples while we did. LOTS of variations from two samples in one setting. American iron was very similar in color and appearance, except that instead of hammering (plannishing), it was run through a series of rollers so the surface was smooth. What the process does is an oxidation-reduction of the surface of the sheet iron, converting the surface to two stable iron oxides - materials known in mineralogy as hematite and magnetite. This is what seals the iron in and protects it. Finally, at the California State Railroad Museum the full size locomotive restorations have jackets painted with automotive paint, just like at the Smithsonian and at Promontory. All painted locomotive jackets are far too light in color. In the lobby of CSRM the Overfair locomotive (19 inch gauge) has jacket treated with a hot dip chemical "bluing" process developed by Chris DeWitt at the Nevada State Railroad Museum that is very close to true Russia iron in color. At Carson City the V&T #22 Inyo and the C&TL&F Glenbrook both have this hot dipped jacket, as does Dan Markoff's locomotive Eureka. Hope that helps.
Chris told be he had done jackets for CRSM as well. Not sure just which. He has tried to make Russia iron with no luck. Always comes out uneven. I'd love to see the Golden Spike site fund actually making some for the locomotives. I would assume with work and trial and error it could be done. At least the hot dip blueing system Chris uses. NN #40 has an American Iron Jacket, and while they painted over it (go figure) there is a plan to take it back. Having seen it up close before they painted it I can say there is nothing like it. Paint is closer than hot dip, yet still just not it. And as you say, in reflects light and is so spectral,even trying to figure out anything about it with old photos is a waste of time. Best done with research and trying to recreate it. As for the films, unless the photographer added cyanide or small quantities of certain dyes to the emulsion, it responded in a very predicable way to the spectrum. In 1869 this was a laboratory trick only, these dyes would most often ruin the photo, so never used in the field and few photographers tried. To best do this test of the colors, it would require making real film, not a digital filter, and shooting at the right time in the right light. But this "test" shows proof of the concept. If the tint of the color can be agreed on, pure blue or as on the current locomotive with a bit of green, then the exact shade can be found this way. (I used the current tint with the green, but most people seem to think this was pure blue) As this test only works for blues, the red green problem would still be left to research only. I'd love to see the locomotives repainted for the 150th anniversary in 2019 and this time I think they will be very close. I think the real colors are almost known at this point. Almost.
Most informative! I must confess to a slight involvement in the evolution of the colours of Jupiter. Back in the early 2000s I corresponded with Jim Wilke, who informed me that an old newspaper article (I think it was a Sacramento paper) by an evident loco enthusiast recorded the colours of the latest C.P. engine, Jupiter, as dark blue and red. Jim was wondering if Walter McQueen, a patriotic Scottish émigré, applied Scottish blue to at least some of his company's engines. I replied that the Caledonian Railway used deep Prussian blue with black and white lining on tender, cab and boiler, and crimson lake for the frames, valances and buffer beams, a beautiful harmonious combination. Jim had not previously known this, and proceeded to research it with references I provided. McQueen was known to maintain contact with British companies, and would certainly have been aware of the Caledonian livery. Did he specify a scheme inspired by the Caley, but with gold leaf decoration to appeal to American taste of the time? Very possibly. If so, I think the red on the wheels and tender panel is too bright; crimson lake over iron oxide red primer would be more appropriate and harmonise better with the blue, though vermilion was common on American wheels at the time. John Ott's drawing comes close with its darker red, I think. Just a personal view, but I suspect at least some of Jupiter's lining out may have been white.
I tried applying dark Prussian blue (just a slight hint of green) to John Ott's drawing of Jupiter, as I feel the present colours are a bit gaudy by modern - and late Victorian - standards, and the result was very attractive. The cooler, deeper blue brings out the crimson lake and gives a greater contrast to the gold details. Quite subtly harmonious, just like the Caley livery which may have have inspired it.
For one version of Caledonian blue, see ruclips.net/video/1x66yaVgmZc/видео.html. The basic hue was Prussian blue, which got lighter with the addition of white as the railway entered the 20th century. As noted, the two main Caley loco depots applied their own versions. In the 1860s, it would have been a cool dark blue. Note how deep the crimson is, with the bright red centre panel on the buffer beam. Whether Schenectady actually applied anything similar is anyone's guess. Prussian blue was and is an expensive pigment, very translucent and requiring several coats. Adding white saved on blue pigment and simplified the process, which is why the Caley blue got lighter over the years.
I don't care that it was uploaded at the wrong time this has got to be my favorite episode I've always beleived that the jupiter was a darker red than the 119 this video goes in high detail about this subject
+Target ghost Mr goat Wish I could have gone even deeper. As it is it's over 20 minutes. But the blue has a hint of green. Is that right? Greg has painted his loco pure blue. I kept the green and went darker to get the gray scale to match. IF the engine was really royal scottish blue, there would have been a git of green but not as much as in the color they used and I tinted. I like the look of the pure blue on Greg's loco best. But what is correct?
+Toy Man Television I am not sure what color it is, the pictures are in black and white and you only tested it for blue it could be any color like as you said it could have had a tint of green in it or it could have been all green we dont know but there was only a couple of claims of it being blue if im correct
+Target ghost Mr goat Right, the assumption is that it's blue with just a hint of green, Royal Scottish Blue. I accepted their tint, then went looking for the shade to match that. If its any other tint, the test needs to be done again to find the shade. I've been testing, and I THINK this will work for the green too. The film sees just a pinch into the top of green. So green is a pinch, almost invisible, lighter than red. IF they are pure red and green.
As usual you make my morning with your video, history lesson and paint matching even. Be nice if you can get deeper with it. so many questions raised. Awaiting on your answer Professor. Don't care if its late long as we get it! Cheers Les
+WEUSANDCORR I'll bet they repaint for the 150th anniversary in 2019. AND the plan is to have the Big Boy in Ogden. Bet they also have 150,000 people. So NOW is the time to talk colors.
Some time ago I was telling you about the Golden Spike Centennial Expo Car that still sits at the Utah Railroad Museum at Ogden. The Model I am working on in HO Scale is coming along where the Outside of the car is all but done(Just couple more details to do) I am beginning the inside displays that will cover the events that lead to the Golden Spike. Most of the inside there is so far few pictures of the actual car exhibits, So much of the events leading up to the Golden Spike will be inside my model based more on the type and style of displays seen in the California Railroad Museum. My first Exhibit for inside (actually one of the last ones one would see walking through the car). That is a Model of the Golden Spike Glass Safe complete with lighting by fiber optics. There is actually a Golden Spike inside the safe that I ground down from hand laid HO track Spikes. As the ones used for modeling when measured were almost 2 feet long , After ground down to a close scale size were actually very small, So small in fact that after grinding 4 of them I had lost one of the first four on the floor never to be seen again. I was very surprised that people at the NMRA Convention had no idea what that car was out at the Utah Railroad Museum, especially those from the area. The five car set that UP hauled around the Western Cities to end up at the 100th anniversary in 1969 my models are now coming along near ready for sign and car markings on the flat cars. All the vintage cars they carried all about complete, (one vintage coach to complete. The two engines on the flat cars still need remarked for the Promontory engines but are fitted on the flat cars and ready for the paint. I enjoy your videos that you have made..... Newman Atkinson in Indiana
*Thanks for the insight into the colors problems* encountered in building re-creations of scrapped locomotives. My idea of an operational boiler for Baldwin 6/22-C-1 SerNo 3689, currently in storage near the California State RxR Museum, Sacramento, would be a full-welded 304 stainless Dixon (against the scale problems currently troubling the Union Pacific's three huge Americans) built to the Baldwin drawings, with a lap-seamed alloy-iron jacket that, ideally, would look a mirror-finish counterpart of Parkerized matte gray. I'd recommend a maroon finish with gold text and brass throttle-dome band, consistent with the known last operational paint scheme for Virginia & Truckee fleet no. 21 (cf. the Wm. Van Tassel Collection orthographic photo of Baldwin 22-1/2-C-1 SerNo 2199 as V&TRR fleet no. 9, in Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, _Steamcars to the Comstock: The Virginia & Truckee Railroad - The Carson & Colorado Railroad - Their Story in Pictures and Prose_ (Berkeley, CA, USA: Howell-North, 1957), p. 68, and the restoration paint for Baldwin 8/27-D-2 SerNo 3693 as Virginia & Truckee no. 22 at the Nevada State RxR Museum, Carson City).
+B. C. Schmerker Always a debate over rivets vs welding with modern materials. On D and RGW #223 I suggested welded with welded rivet heads. They opted for actually doing it exactly as the original. As its' a museum piece... BUT they plan on taking it everywhere and running. I see problems ahead. BUT, nice to see someone getting messy with a rivet gun. There was a LONG discussion over keeping the original tank, useless as the bottom foot was totally missing. Therefore, the unit would be a museum display forever, no way to make a reliable tender out of rust . HOWEVER, it's the original artifact. Now sitting outside still rusting to nothing. So, is it a "sin"? Myself, I'd rather see it rebuilt, and welds to keep it good with low maintenance. BUT, that's me, I see where others are coming from. As long as I get to see it intact again, I'm happy as a pig in poo.
This video is incredibly interesting and tremendously informative. One of the best videos yet, Dale! Thanks for putting this up! :) Oh! And keep working up that duet! Sounded good but you cut it off too short! ;)
The newspaper said Prussian blue. But the Locomotive builder tended to use royal Scottish blue. The colors we are referencing are all based on various shades of what people have called royal Scottish blue. Not a pure blue, more like the color of the blue bubblegum you see you. So what we’re trying to do is figure out exactly what shade of royal Scottish blue the locomotive was painted. It seems that the parks department has it really close but probably just a little too bright.
Bachmann has made new HO models of Jupiter 60 and UP 119 with DCC and sound value. The only negative I have on those models is that there whistles sound deeper than these. The positives I have is that with this scene in the middle of no where they didn't need to worry about the rules of grade crossings yet.
+Pinchie08 There is a huge study for a project that will probably never happen, but it would be GREAT, to relay the track all the way to Corine, build another locomotive or two, and a bunch of coaches, and put the parking in Corine. Ride the train to the monument. WOW!!!!
The Bachmann models are still generic, most closely based on Virginia and Truckee Baldwins, with that maker's badge (or an approximation) between the driving wheels. 119 was a coal burner, but Bachmann give her a load of wood on the tender! The specific details are cosmetic; the basic shape is pure Baldwin.
It's very true that Bachmann made HO and N scale models of Jupiter 60 and UP 119. However Jupiters boiler jacket it silver or grey. 119s boiler jacket is light green or light sky blue. Micro trains painted there N scale models like the real ones.
The image at6:25 is the locomotive works at Nashville Tennessee in the mid 1860s. I'd recognize the state capital building at the far right up on the hill. That building is long gone. It's home to the CSX Kayne street yard where they break up local freight to ship out to the two short lines the N. E. and the N. W. as well as local industries and through traffic. I'd know that image anywhere! I always thought that was a unique engine house. At the time this was where all the Union supplies came to in the western theater during the American Civil War. If you were here the day this photo was taken you would have two Union Army forts behind you. The first Fort Negley would be to your right rear and to the left rear was the federal block house fortification, now one of the city's reservoir. Classic photo!
Just a question to consider, would the lighting affect the color as well? I noticed on the original photo the head light falls into a shadow cast by the smoke stack, but on the newer photo the headlight does not fall into a shadow. I also notice that the original photo has very defined shadows especially from the hand rails on to the boiler on 119, where as the photo you are comparing it to there are no hard shadows cast by the hand rails.
totally!! I didn't get into it in the show, but the headlight is in shadow in 1869. Measured shadows, photo was at about 6 PM on May 10. As the spike was driven at 2 PM they must have spent the rest of the day staging photos, the most famous one must have been one of the last. I did take that into account, tried to match the levels but most of the shadow seems to be from the people on the locomotive, as in the modern photo I get way less shadow. I would love to do this "for real" if they opt to repaint for the 2019 150th university, some talk they will, with their help, I would reshoot the photo, on home made ortho film, at the right time, with people. Hope to actually do that!
Amazing video, love the Jupiter and 199, beautiful locomotives, but the diamond stack of the Jupiter makes that one my favorite. Loving these train videos, keep it up! Oh, and as a side note, f you ever get a chance to get back down to LA again, i suggest you go to, and make a video on the USS Iowa, i think that would be an awesome video!
+Joe295398 I LA all the time. Story of my life. I sat down and figured it out about 20 years ago and I was in LA about 25% of the time. Even had an apartment there for a time. Then just moved there for 15 years. ANYWAY, that would be cool. Did you see the video on the LA port? Flew over it...
+Toy Man Television +Toy Man Television I love LA, such an amazing city, many people don't like it, but living in New Jersey where it's always cold, rainy, and snowy for most of the year, it sounds quite nice to have nice weather all year around. And yes i did, that was actually really interesting to see, I always wondered where it all went after they got it on the trucks. When I was there two years ago, we stayed in San Pedro, in a hotel with a wonderful view of the Port. It's an amazing sight at night. The port never sleeps.
+ToyMan *Re-viewing this one three years post hoc,* judging from the orthochromatic characteristics of the collodion wet plates used in period baseboard cameras, I reckon that a deep blue, almost navy, would be a match for Central Pacific 60, a pine green for Union Pacific 119. Both locomotives had large areas in red. The re-creation of the Russia iron boiler jackets, I suspect, is similar to Parker Chemical's manganese phosphate process, although the result is gloss rather than matte. Perhaps an oil-burning new-build Strasburg (PA, USA) Rail Road Company replica of 2-4-0 Burnham, Parry, Williams & Co. 6/22-C-1 SerNo 3689 (delivered February 1875; currently on static display at Sacramento, CA, USA) might be a better option than attempting to restore 3689 to full operation, seeing that 3689 is the last surviving 2-4-0 build from Baldwin? Dual Westinghouse Air Brake Company reciprocating pumps can be located ahead of the driver's station, with the air tanks beneath the cab flanks; a steam-driven electrical generator placed at the rear of the throttle dome; and the Knowles No. 6 steam fire pump and the sandbox-top bell as fitted on 3689 at the Baldwin Locomotive Works. Headlamps at the smokebox and cab roof would mirror the installation on the since-scrapped 2-4-0 Burnham, Parry, Williams & Co. Class 22-1/2-C-1 SerNo 2199.
I’m becoming a bit less interested in seeing locomotives restored to operating condition but mostly just preserved. People often say they would like to see the Cab Forward restored and running. And sure I get that. But given the problems operating it, the politics with UP, and the necessary alteration of the locomotive I’m fine with it just where it is. The key is one survived. And we have been in the cab. We have seen the firebox. But even recreating an early locomotive gives us all a chance to see a working locomotive, without harming a historic artifact. And it may be a recreation of a lost locomotive. So it all depends. 4014 could not be recreated. It now takes its place as a working mostly original locomotive. But when I see the attempt at restoring Denver and Rio Grande Western 223, if it ever runs again it will really be a recreation. Perhaps 30 % original. So while seeing a working C16 would be great, 70% of the only Grant C16 will be destroyed to achieve it. So......
what happened to the originals ? i thought i saw photos of them in several steam parades such as the 20th centry of steam progress event and i thought i saw them at at a early worlds fair photograph. were they scrapped ? did they dissapear into the sands of time ? thanks wonder if they went back to work hauling trains ? thanks in adance.
Hello . The machines look very good, whether they are the original colors close to me is not so important, the overall picture is Wunderbar.Auch models, and changed ash watches collection.
+Werner Sievers I love post Civil War locomotives!! Works of art all! Soon they were all black and covered with soot. But for 20 years or so they were clean and wonderful.
This was a keeper of one of your, Top 10 adventures. (And you done a "Mess of 'em" as they say in the South.) Always great and isn't it nice Bachmann has just introduced another, large scale version of these and, The Glenbrook you covered so well a while back.. "Well Done You" as Sister Evangelista tells her brother in 'Call The Midwife" (Pam Ferris) Greg, Husband of Jeanne.
+Jeanne Uzar Bachmann is doing these in large scale? (DROOL) Didn't know. on to the source of all knowledge, the internet to look!! (did you see the two K 36's in the lower right when interviewing Greg? upcoming show!)
MTH also makes an O scale version of the Jupiter and the 119 in the RailKing series. They're fairly accurate but the 119 is missing the murals on the tender and the sand dome. I have the models already so I might go back to Promontory sometime get some good photos of the murals have a guy make them in scale with the model and get those put on. Great video by the way!
Thanks!! I was blown away when I found out Ward Kimball painted the murals. Just bought the Bachman model of his locomotive with the amazing murals. WOW.....
Toy Man Television Same. Plus you helped me out a bunch with the coloring with the color scale of the Jupiter and the 119. Once the engines are in their new paint schemes I'll probably give my models to the guy to repaint them to what the replicas look like. I actually went up to Promontory in June of 2014. I should have came in May I could have bumped into you! Lol.
Interesting take on the colors of trains from B&W photos. After listening for decades over arguments over the correct colors of red or gold on New Haven locos, I have come to the conclusion, as much as I would like to desire otherwise, that if you weren't alive when the original paint existed and nobody else was either, then what you put on is good enough for most things. In the case of 19'th century stuff where everything is gone and you don't have paint chips, you just wing it until you find better information. The same goes for building replica locomotives.
+John Carlton Yup. Fun to screw around with it, but some people get way to intense over colors and stuff. Best guess, and hope you came close. Then take photos and have a beer. And if someone has new information, listen and go back the the paint shop if necessary.
+Daniel Mccoy FUN making it. Just hit me while talking the colors that the shade could be derived if I could match the film profile of the old film. ( I taught the physics of film and sound along with other fun if not pointless subjects at University)
I never knew they didn't have exact color data on these engines. I've always loved them but sometimes found myself thinking those colors, esp. the blue were just too circus. The darker blue just looks so much more regal.
Right! When they went with blue, it just looked wrong. It seemed that people back then had better taste than that. A better sense of what looks right. Yet with just a little change, it looks great. AND must be closer to correct.
Toy Man Television → It would be REALLY COOL if someone uncovers the lost info about that 'Russian iron' {or steel, whatever - LOL}. *IF* it was discovered, I do not know if there would be time to retrofit those two locomotives or not....
Hey thanks a lot for posting this!!! i love the Transcontinental railroad! please go to the Cumbres and Toltec! Its just as great as the Durango and Silverten! the locomotives may be similar Because they are sisters.
Toy Man, Thank you! I enjoyed watching "Golden Spike - Recreating The Jupiter and Union Pacific119." Just wondering, will the "blue button" also include the Rumble Strips? Cheers! :-) P.S. Musical Road- Lancaster, CA. (watch?v=EK1ocEbJA7c) The road not only entertains, but uses 'rumble strips' to play music.
I've talked a lot about the subject of paint on these locomotives with Jim Wilke. He's the go to guy about 19th century steam locomotive paint. You could talk to him forever if your really into that subject. Really nice guy. This maybe where you got some of your info Jim and Jon Davis made these two 3D renders of how to JUPITER and 119 should look. discussion.cprr.net/2008/02/jupiter-119-paint-colors.html?m=1
+Toy Man Television yes Jim is working with the park on the paint. He did all the paint research for Glenbrook and a handful of others. For the last 3 or 4 years he's been giving talks at the V&TRRHS meets in Carson City and there always really interesting to hear! P.S. If your not a V&TRRHS member check it out!
+ScottyRockTrains That's me one the left with the wine bottle in the Russell photo. Can't remember the colors because the wine bottle is empty. May have been the same shade of pink as the elephants.
+John Reynoso At the time no one thought they were even interesting. Hard to even imagine. And it still happens. Only about 20 years ago the roundhouse and shops of the Virginia and Truckee were torn down only about a mile from the V & T Museum. Totally intact, now parking lots and weed fields.
Virginia & Truckee #18 "DAYTON" and #22 "INYO" were the locomotives on display at Promontory Summit. The O'Connor replicas were delivered there on May 1st, 1979.
American iron simple. Russian iron not at all. I know a guy who has made Russian iron. Researched. Tested. Made some. Not good at all. Gave up. It’s a secret lost to history. Ground antlers. Bones. Piss. Yup pee. Heat. Pressure. And in the end….. didn’t look at all good. Chris gave up and is using gun bluing. Which looks great. But not at all like Russian iron.
+Pinchie08 So true!! But it's fun trying to figure it out. Just because Jupiter was blue when it was built does not mean it stayed that way. Assumption is it did, but no way of knowing. I wish someone else shot photos that day with a different film THEN we could really get into the weeds screwing around with colors.
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As always, enjoyed the video. We’ve got to get out there sometime and see this for ourselves. The 4-4-0 vintage style locomotives have always been my favorite
Another great trip down memory lane. Fantastic how individuals are working to preserve and relive the past.
Hope they repaint for 2019
@@ToyManTelevision is the 119 wood burning?
Greetings. I enjoyed this version of the several you have produced and really appreciated your extensive discussion on colors and the use of Russing bluing and American bluing. Thanks for all you two folks do for us. - Dean from Minnesota
Wonderful as always. Your shows always make my Sunday mornings cozy. I'm jealous of how much you two get around. Thank you Sir!
+KampferDouch3nn The upside of forced retirement. We are off to Chicago next month to see the ultimate collector collection!! Guy even has his own 1870 locomotive and coach. OK, we've seen that before, but in the LIVING ROOM?? Next to the merry-go-round and the fire truck?
Fascinating! Trying to discover the correct colors from old black and white photos is indeed, trying! As a bit of a history enthusiast, loved all the historical information especially the Disney connection! Way to go Ward Kimball!
+notoe333 Have you seen the 3 shows here on Disneyland? Some missed facts. (oops) but really fun and interesting!.
Really enjoyed watching this. I was employed by OConnor from 1977 to 2009. I started working there right when the boilers were delivered to the shop.
Wow that would’ve been something to see. How fortunate you were able to be part of that
Very interesting on the Locomotives. As always keep up the good work.
+dave tucker Fun days! Love these locomotives.
Really enjoyed this video! I know you put a lot of effort on this and it is appreciated! Great job!
🙏 thanks!!
Sir, I am totally amazed by your knowledge as I have viewed this and many other segments! I live in Utah and I hope that someday our paths will cross. Please keep doing segments every week as I look forward to them
Someday soon they will repaint.
Darn scheduled publishing tool on RUclips!! Missed again! Should have gone up at 8:30 DARN!!
Never knew there was such controversy over the color schemes, but then, I always wondered how the toy companies decided to paint the models of the various rail cars and locos. I guess I thought there were research books accessible by folks with lots of money that could hire or buy these books that give all the answers to questions like, "how do you make an accurate Jupiter, and what colors was it painted?" It's a small surprise to me the answer is, "nope, and I don't know." Oh well, at least now I feel a LOT better about my models. Thanks for making this video and I WILL watching more of your videos on YT! B c'ing u!
Interesting presentation. Let me add a bit more - as someone who worked with Jim Wilke back in 1994 to revise the earlier replica paint jobs and has stayed involved since then.
The blue selected in 1994, as subsequent research has show, is far too light; it should be a much darker (and richer) Caledonian blue. Commentary in the video also discusses some of the other improvement, and other question, that have come up as more information comes to light over the years.
On the "film" used in 1869, it is actually a wet plate emulsion that had to be mixed by the photographer in the field, coated on a sheet of glass in a dark tent, and then exposed and developed before it dried. Depending on conditions, that might be somewhere around 15 minutes, plus or minus - and sometimes significantly less. Further, a wet plate emulsion is actually LESS sensitive than orthochromatic film, so your ortho filter does not accurately reflect what a wet plate "sees" - and an ortho filter is only approximate anyway.
Further, since the emulsion was mixed in the field by the photographer, it was subject to all kinds of variables, including the quality of the water used, the freshness of the chemicals, the particular choices of chemicals (there were many variations) and their relative ratios, as well as the skill of the individual photographer. All of these produce variables in the resulting emulsion, and how it "reads" a scene.
Further, lighting of a scene, and of individual parts of a scene, can have a huge effect. I've seen many cases were I know that several surfaces are the same color, but because of lighting they can be rendered in many different shades of gray. In sum, while a person can make educated guesses about colors rendered in black and white photos, numerous variables can effect the rendering into black and white, including printing in addition to the original exposure.
In point of fact, there were three photographers at Promontory on May 10, 1869, and a fourth within a month. AJ Russell was the official Union Pacific photographer; AA Hart was the official Central Pacific photographer; and Charles Savage was a Salt Lake City photographer who came up for the event. In addition, William Henry Jackson visited Promontory and the surrounding country within a month. All four were shooting stereo negatives, plus Russell was shooting large "Imperial" plates. We also know that Hart was having trouble with his chemestry, and that Russell and Savage helped him.
Turning to Russia iron, we actually have many samples of it - it is a dark gray color with blue, green, red or brown highlights depending on the quality of the Russia iron, and on the surrounding environment. It is also highly variable in appearance depending on the angle of viewing and other factors - it can sometimes appear very light or very dark. In a series of photos taken of two samples, one lying on top of the other, taken around noon, and in color, we have the two samples as a dark gray (the "actual" base color), and very light appearing (lots of reflectivity), as a very dark color, and in several photos one sample being dark gray while the other sample was very dark. We walked in circles around the samples taking photos, never touching the samples while we did. LOTS of variations from two samples in one setting. American iron was very similar in color and appearance, except that instead of hammering (plannishing), it was run through a series of rollers so the surface was smooth. What the process does is an oxidation-reduction of the surface of the sheet iron, converting the surface to two stable iron oxides - materials known in mineralogy as hematite and magnetite. This is what seals the iron in and protects it.
Finally, at the California State Railroad Museum the full size locomotive restorations have jackets painted with automotive paint, just like at the Smithsonian and at Promontory. All painted locomotive jackets are far too light in color. In the lobby of CSRM the Overfair locomotive (19 inch gauge) has jacket treated with a hot dip chemical "bluing" process developed by Chris DeWitt at the Nevada State Railroad Museum that is very close to true Russia iron in color. At Carson City the V&T #22 Inyo and the C&TL&F Glenbrook both have this hot dipped jacket, as does Dan Markoff's locomotive Eureka.
Hope that helps.
Chris told be he had done jackets for CRSM as well. Not sure just which. He has tried to make Russia iron with no luck. Always comes out uneven. I'd love to see the Golden Spike site fund actually making some for the locomotives. I would assume with work and trial and error it could be done. At least the hot dip blueing system Chris uses. NN #40 has an American Iron Jacket, and while they painted over it (go figure) there is a plan to take it back. Having seen it up close before they painted it I can say there is nothing like it. Paint is closer than hot dip, yet still just not it. And as you say, in reflects light and is so spectral,even trying to figure out anything about it with old photos is a waste of time. Best done with research and trying to recreate it. As for the films, unless the photographer added cyanide or small quantities of certain dyes to the emulsion, it responded in a very predicable way to the spectrum. In 1869 this was a laboratory trick only, these dyes would most often ruin the photo, so never used in the field and few photographers tried. To best do this test of the colors, it would require making real film, not a digital filter, and shooting at the right time in the right light. But this "test" shows proof of the concept. If the tint of the color can be agreed on, pure blue or as on the current locomotive with a bit of green, then the exact shade can be found this way. (I used the current tint with the green, but most people seem to think this was pure blue) As this test only works for blues, the red green problem would still be left to research only. I'd love to see the locomotives repainted for the 150th anniversary in 2019 and this time I think they will be very close. I think the real colors are almost known at this point. Almost.
Most informative! I must confess to a slight involvement in the evolution of the colours of Jupiter. Back in the early 2000s I corresponded with Jim Wilke, who informed me that an old newspaper article (I think it was a Sacramento paper) by an evident loco enthusiast recorded the colours of the latest C.P. engine, Jupiter, as dark blue and red. Jim was wondering if Walter McQueen, a patriotic Scottish émigré, applied Scottish blue to at least some of his company's engines.
I replied that the Caledonian Railway used deep Prussian blue with black and white lining on tender, cab and boiler, and crimson lake for the frames, valances and buffer beams, a beautiful harmonious combination. Jim had not previously known this, and proceeded to research it with references I provided.
McQueen was known to maintain contact with British companies, and would certainly have been aware of the Caledonian livery. Did he specify a scheme inspired by the Caley, but with gold leaf decoration to appeal to American taste of the time? Very possibly. If so, I think the red on the wheels and tender panel is too bright; crimson lake over iron oxide red primer would be more appropriate and harmonise better with the blue, though vermilion was common on American wheels at the time. John Ott's drawing comes close with its darker red, I think. Just a personal view, but I suspect at least some of Jupiter's lining out may have been white.
I tried applying dark Prussian blue (just a slight hint of green) to John Ott's drawing of Jupiter, as I feel the present colours are a bit gaudy by modern - and late Victorian - standards, and the result was very attractive. The cooler, deeper blue brings out the crimson lake and gives a greater contrast to the gold details. Quite subtly harmonious, just like the Caley livery which may have have inspired it.
For one version of Caledonian blue, see ruclips.net/video/1x66yaVgmZc/видео.html. The basic hue was Prussian blue, which got lighter with the addition of white as the railway entered the 20th century. As noted, the two main Caley loco depots applied their own versions. In the 1860s, it would have been a cool dark blue. Note how deep the crimson is, with the bright red centre panel on the buffer beam. Whether Schenectady actually applied anything similar is anyone's guess. Prussian blue was and is an expensive pigment, very translucent and requiring several coats. Adding white saved on blue pigment and simplified the process, which is why the Caley blue got lighter over the years.
I don't care that it was uploaded at the wrong time this has got to be my favorite episode I've always beleived that the jupiter was a darker red than the 119 this video goes in high detail about this subject
+Target ghost Mr goat Wish I could have gone even deeper. As it is it's over 20 minutes. But the blue has a hint of green. Is that right? Greg has painted his loco pure blue. I kept the green and went darker to get the gray scale to match. IF the engine was really royal scottish blue, there would have been a git of green but not as much as in the color they used and I tinted. I like the look of the pure blue on Greg's loco best. But what is correct?
+Toy Man Television I am not sure what color it is, the pictures are in black and white and you only tested it for blue it could be any color like as you said it could have had a tint of green in it or it could have been all green we dont know but there was only a couple of claims of it being blue if im correct
+Target ghost Mr goat Right, the assumption is that it's blue with just a hint of green, Royal Scottish Blue. I accepted their tint, then went looking for the shade to match that. If its any other tint, the test needs to be done again to find the shade. I've been testing, and I THINK this will work for the green too. The film sees just a pinch into the top of green. So green is a pinch, almost invisible, lighter than red. IF they are pure red and green.
+Toy Man Television that makes sense now i had forgotten that green almost appears black in photos so maybe it is green.
As usual you make my morning with your video, history lesson and paint matching even. Be nice if you can get deeper with it. so many questions raised. Awaiting on your answer Professor.
Don't care if its late long as we get it!
Cheers Les
+WEUSANDCORR I'll bet they repaint for the 150th anniversary in 2019. AND the plan is to have the Big Boy in Ogden. Bet they also have 150,000 people. So NOW is the time to talk colors.
Some time ago I was telling you about the Golden Spike Centennial Expo Car that still sits at the Utah Railroad Museum at Ogden.
The Model I am working on in HO Scale is coming along where the Outside of the car is all but done(Just couple more details to do) I am beginning the inside displays that will cover the events that lead to the Golden Spike. Most of the inside there is so far few pictures of the actual car exhibits, So much of the events leading up to the Golden Spike will be inside my model based more on the type and style of displays seen in the California Railroad Museum. My first Exhibit for inside (actually one of the last ones one would see walking through the car). That is a Model of the Golden Spike Glass Safe complete with lighting by fiber optics. There is actually a Golden Spike inside the safe that I ground down from hand laid HO track Spikes. As the ones used for modeling when measured were almost 2 feet long , After ground down to a close scale size were actually very small, So small in fact that after grinding 4 of them I had lost one of the first four on the floor never to be seen again. I was very surprised that people at the NMRA Convention had no idea what that car was out at the Utah Railroad Museum, especially those from the area. The five car set that UP hauled around the Western Cities to end up at the 100th anniversary in 1969 my models are now coming along near ready for sign and car markings on the flat cars. All the vintage cars they carried all about complete, (one vintage coach to complete. The two engines on the flat cars still need remarked for the Promontory engines but are fitted on the flat cars and ready for the paint. I enjoy your videos that you have made..... Newman Atkinson in Indiana
I don’t recall there being any mountains in the famous photograph. You sure the museum is in the exact same spot where the Golden Spike was driven?
Yes. The early film only saw blue light. So you never see clouds and often mountains also disappear if it’s at all hazy.
*Thanks for the insight into the colors problems* encountered in building re-creations of scrapped locomotives. My idea of an operational boiler for Baldwin 6/22-C-1 SerNo 3689, currently in storage near the California State RxR Museum, Sacramento, would be a full-welded 304 stainless Dixon (against the scale problems currently troubling the Union Pacific's three huge Americans) built to the Baldwin drawings, with a lap-seamed alloy-iron jacket that, ideally, would look a mirror-finish counterpart of Parkerized matte gray.
I'd recommend a maroon finish with gold text and brass throttle-dome band, consistent with the known last operational paint scheme for Virginia & Truckee fleet no. 21 (cf. the Wm. Van Tassel Collection orthographic photo of Baldwin 22-1/2-C-1 SerNo 2199 as V&TRR fleet no. 9, in Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, _Steamcars to the Comstock: The Virginia & Truckee Railroad - The Carson & Colorado Railroad - Their Story in Pictures and Prose_ (Berkeley, CA, USA: Howell-North, 1957), p. 68, and the restoration paint for Baldwin 8/27-D-2 SerNo 3693 as Virginia & Truckee no. 22 at the Nevada State RxR Museum, Carson City).
+B. C. Schmerker Always a debate over rivets vs welding with modern materials. On D and RGW #223 I suggested welded with welded rivet heads. They opted for actually doing it exactly as the original. As its' a museum piece... BUT they plan on taking it everywhere and running. I see problems ahead. BUT, nice to see someone getting messy with a rivet gun. There was a LONG discussion over keeping the original tank, useless as the bottom foot was totally missing. Therefore, the unit would be a museum display forever, no way to make a reliable tender out of rust . HOWEVER, it's the original artifact. Now sitting outside still rusting to nothing. So, is it a "sin"? Myself, I'd rather see it rebuilt, and welds to keep it good with low maintenance. BUT, that's me, I see where others are coming from. As long as I get to see it intact again, I'm happy as a pig in poo.
This video is incredibly interesting and tremendously informative. One of the best videos yet, Dale! Thanks for putting this up! :) Oh! And keep working up that duet! Sounded good but you cut it off too short! ;)
Thanks! More coming!
On 5:21 Royal what blue?, and on 8:31-8:35 what kind of dark blue is that?
The newspaper said Prussian blue. But the Locomotive builder tended to use royal Scottish blue. The colors we are referencing are all based on various shades of what people have called royal Scottish blue. Not a pure blue, more like the color of the blue bubblegum you see you. So what we’re trying to do is figure out exactly what shade of royal Scottish blue the locomotive was painted. It seems that the parks department has it really close but probably just a little too bright.
No easy task to figure out the right colors.
Someday I'll get out to the Golden spike site
Bachmann has made new HO models of Jupiter 60 and UP 119 with DCC and sound value. The only negative I have on those models is that there whistles sound deeper than these. The positives I have is that with this scene in the middle of no where they didn't need to worry about the rules of grade crossings yet.
+Pinchie08 There is a huge study for a project that will probably never happen, but it would be GREAT, to relay the track all the way to Corine, build another locomotive or two, and a bunch of coaches, and put the parking in Corine. Ride the train to the monument. WOW!!!!
+Toy Man Television I hope that happens.
The Bachmann models are still generic, most closely based on Virginia and Truckee Baldwins, with that maker's badge (or an approximation) between the driving wheels. 119 was a coal burner, but Bachmann give her a load of wood on the tender! The specific details are cosmetic; the basic shape is pure Baldwin.
It's very true that Bachmann made HO and N scale models of Jupiter 60 and UP 119. However Jupiters boiler jacket it silver or grey. 119s boiler jacket is light green or light sky blue. Micro trains painted there N scale models like the real ones.
+Pinchie08 I've never been able to figure Bachmanns thinking on the boiler jackets. Yet close on other colors. Go figure!!
The image at6:25 is the locomotive works at Nashville Tennessee in the mid 1860s. I'd recognize the state capital building at the far right up on the hill. That building is long gone. It's home to the CSX Kayne street yard where they break up local freight to ship out to the two short lines the N. E. and the N. W. as well as local industries and through traffic. I'd know that image anywhere! I always thought that was a unique engine house. At the time this was where all the Union supplies came to in the western theater during the American Civil War. If you were here the day this photo was taken you would have two Union Army forts behind you. The first Fort Negley would be to your right rear and to the left rear was the federal block house fortification, now one of the city's reservoir. Classic photo!
LOVE that era!! Not the war, but HOT DAMN!! The trains, boats, guns, people.... AMAZING TIME.
Just a question to consider, would the lighting affect the color as well? I noticed on the original photo the head light falls into a shadow cast by the smoke stack, but on the newer photo the headlight does not fall into a shadow. I also notice that the original photo has very defined shadows especially from the hand rails on to the boiler on 119, where as the photo you are comparing it to there are no hard shadows cast by the hand rails.
totally!! I didn't get into it in the show, but the headlight is in shadow in 1869. Measured shadows, photo was at about 6 PM on May 10. As the spike was driven at 2 PM they must have spent the rest of the day staging photos, the most famous one must have been one of the last. I did take that into account, tried to match the levels but most of the shadow seems to be from the people on the locomotive, as in the modern photo I get way less shadow. I would love to do this "for real" if they opt to repaint for the 2019 150th university, some talk they will, with their help, I would reshoot the photo, on home made ortho film, at the right time, with people. Hope to actually do that!
Amazing video, love the Jupiter and 199, beautiful locomotives, but the diamond stack of the Jupiter makes that one my favorite. Loving these train videos, keep it up! Oh, and as a side note, f you ever get a chance to get back down to LA again, i suggest you go to, and make a video on the USS Iowa, i think that would be an awesome video!
+Joe295398 I LA all the time. Story of my life. I sat down and figured it out about 20 years ago and I was in LA about 25% of the time. Even had an apartment there for a time. Then just moved there for 15 years. ANYWAY, that would be cool. Did you see the video on the LA port? Flew over it...
+Toy Man Television +Toy Man Television I love LA, such an amazing city, many people don't like it, but living in New Jersey where it's always cold, rainy, and snowy for most of the year, it sounds quite nice to have nice weather all year around. And yes i did, that was actually really interesting to see, I always wondered where it all went after they got it on the trucks. When I was there two years ago, we stayed in San Pedro, in a hotel with a wonderful view of the Port. It's an amazing sight at night. The port never sleeps.
Great episode!
+tom7601 Thanks!! And what fun!! Even got to sing. Our apologies for that.
+ToyMan *Re-viewing this one three years post hoc,* judging from the orthochromatic characteristics of the collodion wet plates used in period baseboard cameras, I reckon that a deep blue, almost navy, would be a match for Central Pacific 60, a pine green for Union Pacific 119. Both locomotives had large areas in red. The re-creation of the Russia iron boiler jackets, I suspect, is similar to Parker Chemical's manganese phosphate process, although the result is gloss rather than matte.
Perhaps an oil-burning new-build Strasburg (PA, USA) Rail Road Company replica of 2-4-0 Burnham, Parry, Williams & Co. 6/22-C-1 SerNo 3689 (delivered February 1875; currently on static display at Sacramento, CA, USA) might be a better option than attempting to restore 3689 to full operation, seeing that 3689 is the last surviving 2-4-0 build from Baldwin? Dual Westinghouse Air Brake Company reciprocating pumps can be located ahead of the driver's station, with the air tanks beneath the cab flanks; a steam-driven electrical generator placed at the rear of the throttle dome; and the Knowles No. 6 steam fire pump and the sandbox-top bell as fitted on 3689 at the Baldwin Locomotive Works. Headlamps at the smokebox and cab roof would mirror the installation on the since-scrapped 2-4-0 Burnham, Parry, Williams & Co. Class 22-1/2-C-1 SerNo 2199.
I’m becoming a bit less interested in seeing locomotives restored to operating condition but mostly just preserved. People often say they would like to see the Cab Forward restored and running. And sure I get that. But given the problems operating it, the politics with UP, and the necessary alteration of the locomotive I’m fine with it just where it is. The key is one survived. And we have been in the cab. We have seen the firebox. But even recreating an early locomotive gives us all a chance to see a working locomotive, without harming a historic artifact. And it may be a recreation of a lost locomotive. So it all depends. 4014 could not be recreated. It now takes its place as a working mostly original locomotive. But when I see the attempt at restoring Denver and Rio Grande Western 223, if it ever runs again it will really be a recreation. Perhaps 30 % original. So while seeing a working C16 would be great, 70% of the only Grant C16 will be destroyed to achieve it. So......
It really saddens me those most beautiful vintage locomotives been destroyed and replica being made. What camera was used in 1860?
what happened to the originals ? i thought i saw photos of them in several steam parades such as the 20th centry of steam progress event and i thought i saw them at at a early worlds fair photograph. were they scrapped ? did they dissapear into the sands of time ? thanks wonder if they went back to work hauling trains ? thanks in adance.
Not known but assumed scrapped over 100 years ago.
Hello . The machines look very good, whether they are the original colors close to me is not so important, the overall picture is Wunderbar.Auch models, and changed ash watches collection.
+Werner Sievers I love post Civil War locomotives!! Works of art all! Soon they were all black and covered with soot. But for 20 years or so they were clean and wonderful.
CP Jupiter and UP 119 are The Most Beautiful Steam Locomotives ever built.
Could be. We sure love them!! Love the 1//2 scale models!! BTW, is that the Pickles Family Cartoon you are a fan of?
Yes. Tommy Pickles from Rugrats.
This was a keeper of one of your, Top 10 adventures. (And you done a "Mess of 'em" as they say in the South.) Always great and isn't it nice Bachmann has just introduced another, large scale version of these and, The Glenbrook you covered so well a while back.. "Well Done You" as Sister Evangelista tells her brother in 'Call The Midwife" (Pam Ferris) Greg, Husband of Jeanne.
+Jeanne Uzar Bachmann is doing these in large scale? (DROOL) Didn't know. on to the source of all knowledge, the internet to look!! (did you see the two K 36's in the lower right when interviewing Greg? upcoming show!)
MTH also makes an O scale version of the Jupiter and the 119 in the RailKing series. They're fairly accurate but the 119 is missing the murals on the tender and the sand dome. I have the models already so I might go back to Promontory sometime get some good photos of the murals have a guy make them in scale with the model and get those put on. Great video by the way!
Thanks!! I was blown away when I found out Ward Kimball painted the murals. Just bought the Bachman model of his locomotive with the amazing murals. WOW.....
Toy Man Television Same. Plus you helped me out a bunch with the coloring with the color scale of the Jupiter and the 119. Once the engines are in their new paint schemes I'll probably give my models to the guy to repaint them to what the replicas look like. I actually went up to Promontory in June of 2014. I should have came in May I could have bumped into you! Lol.
Sure hope they repaint.
Interesting take on the colors of trains from B&W photos. After listening for decades over arguments over the correct colors of red or gold on New Haven locos, I have come to the conclusion, as much as I would like to desire otherwise, that if you weren't alive when the original paint existed and nobody else was either, then what you put on is good enough for most things. In the case of 19'th century stuff where everything is gone and you don't have paint chips, you just wing it until you find better information. The same goes for building replica locomotives.
+John Carlton Yup. Fun to screw around with it, but some people get way to intense over colors and stuff. Best guess, and hope you came close. Then take photos and have a beer. And if someone has new information, listen and go back the the paint shop if necessary.
Cool video! :)
+Daniel Mccoy FUN making it. Just hit me while talking the colors that the shade could be derived if I could match the film profile of the old film. ( I taught the physics of film and sound along with other fun if not pointless subjects at University)
I never knew they didn't have exact color data on these engines. I've always loved them but sometimes found myself thinking those colors, esp. the blue were just too circus. The darker blue just looks so much more regal.
Right! When they went with blue, it just looked wrong. It seemed that people back then had better taste than that. A better sense of what looks right. Yet with just a little change, it looks great. AND must be closer to correct.
*Very* interesting video!
Looking forward to the 150th in 2019. Wonder if they will repaint for that?
Toy Man Television → It would be REALLY COOL if someone uncovers the lost info about that 'Russian iron' {or steel, whatever - LOL}.
*IF* it was discovered, I do not know if there would be time to retrofit those two locomotives or not....
Has been done. But never turns out well. SO. I'd like to do it in scale. Going to give it a try.
Toy Man Television → You mean the entire 'process' for "Russian {whatever}" HAS BEEN REDISCOVERED?!
I’m uploading a video of the plastic replica of the golden spike
where is this at please
+curtis hunt At the north tip of the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Near Corine Utah. About 30 miles off I 15.
thanks will try to get to it next year
Hey thanks a lot for posting this!!! i love the Transcontinental railroad! please go to the Cumbres and Toltec! Its just as great as the Durango and Silverten! the locomotives may be similar Because they are sisters.
The russia iron color is a issue I am having in building o scale engines. Great video thanks.
We too are working on this. I hope to find a way an all scales. Bear Metal Foil is one thought. BUT we are going to figure it out!
Toy Man, Thank you! I enjoyed watching "Golden Spike - Recreating The Jupiter and Union Pacific119." Just wondering, will the "blue button" also include the Rumble Strips?
Cheers! :-)
P.S. Musical Road- Lancaster, CA. (watch?v=EK1ocEbJA7c) The road not only entertains, but uses 'rumble strips' to play music.
That's how we shake it loose. It jambs in the DVD, I mean CD, player.
Haha! Good sense of humor! Well, I was just thinking… “Don't waste kindness on a rotary engine - they never reciprocate.” ;-)
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good video, But May 10 would be the last day I would go GSOP, too mean people.
It was ok. We’ll set up.
I've talked a lot about the subject of paint on these locomotives with Jim Wilke. He's the go to guy about 19th century steam locomotive paint. You could talk to him forever if your really into that subject. Really nice guy. This maybe where you got some of your info Jim and Jon Davis made these two 3D renders of how to JUPITER and 119 should look.
discussion.cprr.net/2008/02/jupiter-119-paint-colors.html?m=1
Sent Jim a link to the show. WOW. Thanks for the link. I hope they will repaint for 2019. And I hope they involve these guys!
+Toy Man Television yes Jim is working with the park on the paint. He did all the paint research for Glenbrook and a handful of others. For the last 3 or 4 years he's been giving talks at the V&TRRHS meets in Carson City and there always really interesting to hear!
P.S. If your not a V&TRRHS member check it out!
Should do that. Love the V and T.
The Jupiter smoke sake is smiler then the original
The engineers don't wave from the trains anymore; not like did back in 1954!
Why don't you remember the colors? Want you there? Just kidding !!!
Thanks . Great video of our RR history!!!
C u next time!!!
+ScottyRockTrains That's me one the left with the wine bottle in the Russell photo. Can't remember the colors because the wine bottle is empty. May have been the same shade of pink as the elephants.
Dale, they scrapped the engines?!! Whoever made that decision should have been flogged! What were they thinking?!!
+John Reynoso At the time no one thought they were even interesting. Hard to even imagine. And it still happens. Only about 20 years ago the roundhouse and shops of the Virginia and Truckee were torn down only about a mile from the V & T Museum. Totally intact, now parking lots and weed fields.
they didn't get Virginia and Truckee engines they built the engines from the rails up
The first set, 1969, were V and T reno and Genoa. Replaced when the O Connor engines were ready, like 1974? Something like that.
Virginia & Truckee #18 "DAYTON" and #22 "INYO" were the locomotives on display at Promontory Summit. The O'Connor replicas were delivered there on May 1st, 1979.
Any truth to the story that the Jupiter was found in South America and is now at the Smithsonian?
It makes me mad the idea that we can't do what we did in the 1860s in 2020 if it can be invented it can be re invented I'm referring to Russia iron
American iron simple. Russian iron not at all. I know a guy who has made Russian iron. Researched. Tested. Made some. Not good at all. Gave up. It’s a secret lost to history. Ground antlers. Bones. Piss. Yup pee. Heat. Pressure. And in the end….. didn’t look at all good. Chris gave up and is using gun bluing. Which looks great. But not at all like Russian iron.
Truth is we absolutely don't know what color they are.
+Pinchie08 So true!! But it's fun trying to figure it out. Just because Jupiter was blue when it was built does not mean it stayed that way. Assumption is it did, but no way of knowing. I wish someone else shot photos that day with a different film THEN we could really get into the weeds screwing around with colors.