What make springs? Carquest? I think I would replace them all. Real lucky that valve didn't drop and I wouldn't trust the rest of them. With such a mild example you would never expect that and surely be suspect of the quality of the parts. Sorry to see but glad not a catasrophe.
Isky makes some really nice springs. The biggest thing with springs is the tolerance. Some/most can be up to 10% off from their spec. Which is a lot. Whatever brand you select, I agree, forget the bargain brand unknown springs. PAC or any of the major brand are solid choices.
Throw all those Chinese springs away and install some PAC springs. And also do not install those OEM oil shields, they just add weight to the valvetrain and are not needed if the seals are any good. They were designed for the original o-rings that were used way back when.
Well that's frustrating. Thanks for sharing. If one went bad, I'd replace them all, intake and exhaust. Relatively lucky once, it's not worth pushing one's luck further.
Appreciate you sharing. Those springs and the retainers looked stock. Just put all new of both and go down the road....If your not careful and the spring unwinds itself from the valve, then when the valve kisses the piston , its all over. $200 bucks is cheap insurance.. thanks
I’d buy the springs that match the cam and change all 16.. Sounds like these are mystery springs and possibly used springs.. PAC makes good springs. Dodged a bullet on this one for sure, it’s usually catastrophic when the valve does drop..👍🏻
Probably should change them all! Dropped valves destroy engines! He got lucky once! I’m sure you checked coil bind & made sure the retainers are not touching?
Thanks for posting. Casting my vote for all new springs Im sure Joe has already decided to. The problem with springs today is where the wire is coming from. Having manufactured springs and setup spring coilers wire quality can be and issue today. I enjoy your videos. Bill reminds me of my late uncle. So more content from him please.😊
i Have rebuilt many engines big and small.. one large engine was a Bedford 466 a 11 liter diesel I fitted new valve springs. 4 weeks later the driver was reversing up to a loading bay being directed by the boss. A valve spring broke the valve dropped piston split engine stopped dead cracked block and head. complete right off. The valve springs went back to manufacturers they had been harden but not tempered! they paid compensation!!
Carquest heads are junk. I don't know why in the world you would use 'parts store' rebuilt/reman heads on ANYTHING other than a bread and butter daily driver. At best you're getting a set of stock spec rebuilt heads. If you're a betting man. They aren't in any way or shape up to performance use. You get exactly what you pay for. Why did it break? Carquest isn't using any 'premium' or 'performance' parts. They're run of the mill off shore replacement parts. If they stand up to routine standard duty consider yourself lucky. You really need to pick your own parts, including the valve springs, instead of letting a mass rebuilder do it for you.
Thanks Randy, good point. That is a great diagnostic tool. Joe actually did that and #5 was a little cooler. With Pontiacs the #3 and 5 cylinder are Siamese, so lots of heat transfer between those exhaust ports. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 I'm a Chevy guy, so yes it could be difficult in the Siamesed exhaust manifold unless a cylinder was not firing at all. For those that don't own an IR thermometer, they need to buy a cheap one, then discover the uses. I've owned 3 over the years and went overboard buying a Fluke. .....I don't regret it one bit. It has a high temp range and a smaller/tighter angle. It also has two red laser dots that show exactly where it's reading. The dots get farther apart as you move father away.
When a spring breaks near the 1st couple coils then there might be coil bind or fatigue. When it breaks towards the center coils then it's a manufacturing issue/ poor quality.. thank you for your knowledge and videos.
Springs might be close to binding...I've had that on an engine where the math noted enough clearance before bind, but in practice, it kept breaking springs...
When you assembled the engine did you check for retainer to guide boss clearance based on cam lift? Check for coil bind? If those areas are all good and the unknown valve spring just broke, I’d fit a complete new set of springs. Cheap insurance in my opinion.
I had one break on me once. I installed an Edelbrock Performer cam. Only had a .420/.442 lift. Single spring of course. I had iled my way up a logging road, during a weekend photo excursion and stopped to fix lunch, and upon restarting the engine it had a barely noticeable miss. Thinking a fouled plug, I pulled plug wires one at a time to discover it was the #4 cylinder. (SB350) I limped 120 miles home on Oregon coast hwy 101 to get home. The only time that I drove over 30 mph was taking it out of gear and coasting down hill. That was one l o n g 120 mile drive. 😁 The next morning i removed the rocker cover again to find the spring had broken a srcond time. 😱 Young, lucky and stupid. 😁
Steve Morris has had some springs break on some of his SMX builds lately. Of course he buys only the best springs for his big horse power builds but your problem could be just crappy parts. Should you replace all the springs? That's a tough one.
I just did my valve spring seals on my 1991 GMC , no more smoke at start up , i used that hose and a bigger hose and put it in my mouth and could feel the piston air coming up when the air stopped blowing I new I was at TDC , then I found number one TDC set the valves in its firing order every 1/4 turn or 90 degrees to set valves with the firing order . I just turned 72 but its in my blood .
Hey AG, Tim here, from ur description, while you were drivin there, i felt, hmmm, erratic comp, no fire, poppin thru carb, GOTTA be a spring..and THERE you have it.........ok, we both have been doin this a long time, but the erratic comp test, said valve spring to me LOUDLY!!....i hope Carquest does right, and you guys can move on.....LOVED the vid (well its a Poncho engine, so i'm a bit biased) haha, but, YES, NICE job of deductive reasoning.....you having him do the comp chk, and then results being erratic, told me what it was......again, lets hope Carquest, makes good on it all......or at least makes an effort to help you guys.....NICE BIRD btw.........another smart, enjoyable Gold Garage vid!!....TY sir!!!...PEACE to you!!
@@vincemajestyk9497Anything man made will eventually fail. Sometimes it takes a long time, Sometimes it doesn't. It might fail next week, or it might fail after you are no longer here to witness it. But if it keeps being used, it will eventually fail.
New doesn't mean better, replace the one that failed, and leave the ones that are still working alone. If it happens again, on a different one, then replace all. Anything man made is apt to give problems.
@@goldsgarage8236 Ok, well at least the video will help pay for fuel going there and back and you got to make a video to do that.🤷 Oh and shouldn't the machine shop that built the heads warranty the spring?
That's what happens when you use 'customer furnished' parts. Normally most places either 1) refuse to use customer parts (for good reason) or 2) provide NO warranty. He's just a nice guy.
It can't that is why I put it at TDC, however you need air pressure to hold the valve against the head when depressing the spring to remove the keepers. AG
I found the problem while driving to look at the pontiac you build the best engines on the planet and drive a ford?? LOL. I have seen this first hand the damage is catastrophic even at an idol LUCKY GUY .if it had droped a valve you would have been to blame even though you did not do the heads. stop starting the engine.
yeah lets put a 600 lift cam in and use weaker than stock valve springs from car quest cause we heard they use corvette valve springs! dumb meets dumber
I cylinder looks bad , fowled plugbutcommresiongood,? Checked cylinders to left and right ruled out head gasket leak i 100 % find it to be abad card gasket or sealcausing a general over rich slight condition with just one plug and cylinder looking reallyfoweled replace carb gasket it solves the issue. Chevy guy here taught by my old man. This issue is also indicated by very little to no change in iddle mixture scews response even if botto.ed out. If its the rigjt mixture screw not making a change its the rihht plenum of carb to intake gasket withe issie, bad gasket and leak on right side or visa versa.
What make springs? Carquest? I think I would replace them all. Real lucky that valve didn't drop and I wouldn't trust the rest of them. With such a mild example you would never expect that and surely be suspect of the quality of the parts. Sorry to see but glad not a catasrophe.
thanks for your comment Mick, all good points. AG
Good video showing viewers how to diagnose a cylinder having issues
Thanks for the comment Joel .AG
I recommend swapping all the valve springs to quality Crower dual valve spring. It’s not worth the gamble running unknown brand springs.
Isky makes some really nice springs. The biggest thing with springs is the tolerance. Some/most can be up to 10% off from their spec. Which is a lot. Whatever brand you select, I agree, forget the bargain brand unknown springs. PAC or any of the major brand are solid choices.
Thanks for commenting Headflow.
Throw all those Chinese springs away and install some PAC springs. And also do not install those OEM oil shields, they just add weight to the valvetrain and are not needed if the seals are any good. They were designed for the original o-rings that were used way back when.
Good point Mike. It also has PC style valve seals so they are not required. AG
I've had new springs break, the thing is Alan diagnosed it and fixed it for Joe, he should be a happy customer 😊
Thanks Bill. AG
Well that's frustrating. Thanks for sharing. If one went bad, I'd replace them all, intake and exhaust. Relatively lucky once, it's not worth pushing one's luck further.
Thanks for your comments Marcus. AG
Appreciate you sharing. Those springs and the retainers looked stock. Just put all new of both and go down the road....If your not careful and the spring unwinds itself from the valve, then when the valve kisses the piston , its all over. $200 bucks is cheap insurance.. thanks
All good points, Thanks Steve. AG
Check the pushrod to see if it is bent.
Thanks Orlando, the pushrod was ok. AG
Despite machine shop checking, springs are unknown mileage? Change them all.
Thanks Flinch. AG
I would replace them all. I know it sucks but it will probably happen again. Might be a lot worse the next time.
Thanks Less, good advice. AG
I’d buy the springs that match the cam and change all 16.. Sounds like these are mystery springs and possibly used springs.. PAC makes good springs. Dodged a bullet on this one for sure, it’s usually catastrophic when the valve does drop..👍🏻
PAC springs are great.
good points. Thanks Phil. AG
Probably should change them all! Dropped valves destroy engines! He got lucky once! I’m sure you checked coil bind & made sure the retainers are not touching?
Springs are garbage. Ditch them all!
Thanks Brian, yes, i did check that. This is not a high lift cam so lots of room. AG
crower makes a very good spring for stock install height pontiac heads #cro 6804-16
Thanks Walter, yes, i have used the Crower spring before with good results. AG
Valve springs can also break when the RPM's go north 😂. Just joking. I'm glad that's all it was . Another GREAT video
Thanks Roger. AG
Thanks for posting. Casting my vote for all new springs Im sure Joe has already decided to. The problem with springs today is where the wire is coming from. Having manufactured springs and setup spring coilers wire quality can be and issue today. I enjoy your videos. Bill reminds me of my late uncle. So more content from him please.😊
Good info, thanks Sam. AG
I was thinking valve not sealing. Didn't think the problem would be the spring though. I'd replace "all" of them.
Absolutely!
Good advice, thanks Raging. AG
i Have rebuilt many engines big and small.. one large engine was a Bedford 466 a 11 liter diesel I fitted new valve springs. 4 weeks later the driver was reversing up to a loading bay being directed by the boss. A valve spring broke the valve dropped piston split engine stopped dead cracked block and head. complete right off. The valve springs went back to manufacturers they had been harden but not tempered! they paid compensation!!
That is a great story Andy. AG
Carquest heads are junk. I don't know why in the world you would use 'parts store' rebuilt/reman heads on ANYTHING other than a bread and butter daily driver. At best you're getting a set of stock spec rebuilt heads. If you're a betting man. They aren't in any way or shape up to performance use. You get exactly what you pay for. Why did it break? Carquest isn't using any 'premium' or 'performance' parts. They're run of the mill off shore replacement parts. If they stand up to routine standard duty consider yourself lucky. You really need to pick your own parts, including the valve springs, instead of letting a mass rebuilder do it for you.
Thanks for the comments Vince. AG
An IR thermometer reading while idling would have been interesting. Probably useful for an early diagnosis to isolate the cylinder.
Thanks Randy, good point. That is a great diagnostic tool. Joe actually did that and #5 was a little cooler. With Pontiacs the #3 and 5 cylinder are Siamese, so lots of heat transfer between those exhaust ports. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 I'm a Chevy guy, so yes it could be difficult in the Siamesed exhaust manifold unless a cylinder was not firing at all.
For those that don't own an IR thermometer, they need to buy a cheap one, then discover the uses.
I've owned 3 over the years and went overboard buying a Fluke.
.....I don't regret it one bit. It has a high temp range and a smaller/tighter angle.
It also has two red laser dots that show exactly where it's reading. The dots get farther apart as you move father away.
When a spring breaks near the 1st couple coils then there might be coil bind or fatigue. When it breaks towards the center coils then it's a manufacturing issue/ poor quality.. thank you for your knowledge and videos.
And thank you for watching and commenting patrick.AG
Springs might be close to binding...I've had that on an engine where the math noted enough clearance before bind, but in practice, it kept breaking springs...
Thanks MCW. I did check for coil bind and there was lots of clearance.AG
The Car Doctor makes a house call. Spot on diagnosis. Next the remedy...
Thanks for you great comments as always Bill.AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Always enjoy what you bring to the table, Al!
Great episode!
Thanks Michael. AG
When you assembled the engine did you check for retainer to guide boss clearance based on cam lift?
Check for coil bind?
If those areas are all good and the unknown valve spring just broke, I’d fit a complete new set of springs.
Cheap insurance in my opinion.
Any spring will eventually fail, some sooner than others. With that mild lift cam, I'd replace only the one. The others are doing their job.
Thanks Al, yes, all that was ok. This is not a big lift cam so there are no interference issues. AG
I had one break on me once. I installed an Edelbrock Performer cam. Only had a .420/.442 lift. Single spring of course.
I had iled my way up a logging road, during a weekend photo excursion and stopped to fix lunch, and upon restarting the engine it had a barely noticeable miss. Thinking a fouled plug, I pulled plug wires one at a time to discover it was the #4 cylinder. (SB350) I limped 120 miles home on Oregon coast hwy 101 to get home. The only time that I drove over 30 mph was taking it out of gear and coasting down hill.
That was one l o n g 120 mile drive. 😁
The next morning i removed the rocker cover again to find the spring had broken a srcond time. 😱 Young, lucky and stupid. 😁
That was an awful experience Randy, but we always learn from it. Thanks for sharing. AG
Steve Morris has had some springs break on some of his SMX builds lately. Of course he buys only the best springs for his big horse power builds but your problem could be just crappy parts. Should you replace all the springs? That's a tough one.
Thanks Garth.AG
From, your description of the the symptoms. I, knew it was broken valve spring. I've, dealt with that before.
Thanks Stroker. AG
I just did my valve spring seals on my 1991 GMC , no more smoke at start up , i used that hose and a bigger hose and put it in my mouth and could feel the piston air coming up when the air stopped blowing I new I was at TDC , then I found number one TDC set the valves in its firing order every 1/4 turn or 90 degrees to set valves with the firing order . I just turned 72 but its in my blood .
Great info, never thought of doing it that way, we are always learning. AG
Hey AG,
Tim here, from ur description, while you were drivin there, i felt, hmmm, erratic comp, no fire, poppin thru carb, GOTTA be a spring..and THERE you have it.........ok, we both have been doin this a long time, but the erratic comp test, said valve spring to me LOUDLY!!....i hope Carquest does right, and you guys can move on.....LOVED the vid (well its a Poncho engine, so i'm a bit biased) haha, but, YES, NICE job of deductive reasoning.....you having him do the comp chk, and then results being erratic, told me what it was......again, lets hope Carquest, makes good on it all......or at least makes an effort to help you guys.....NICE BIRD btw.........another smart, enjoyable Gold Garage vid!!....TY sir!!!...PEACE to you!!
'Carquest does right'. I wouldn't hold my breath. Just buy the right parts in the first place.
@@vincemajestyk9497Anything man made will eventually fail. Sometimes it takes a long time, Sometimes it doesn't. It might fail next week, or it might fail after you are no longer here to witness it. But if it keeps being used, it will eventually fail.
Good comments Tim, thanks AG
Film guy pay attention 😂. Bouncing around and drifting.. Thank you for your knowledge and videos. Must appreciate.
Thanks for our comments Patrick. I think Alex does a pretty good job trying to follow me around is not that easy. AG
Wonder if the inner spring breaking caused the outer one to bind. I read excessive friction between the inner and outer will do that.
Thanks MC. Certainly possible, they were tangled up. AG
Great video guys!
Thanks son.AG
First thought is a bad valve spring
Got it, thanks. AG
New doesn't mean better, replace the one that failed, and leave the ones that are still working alone. If it happens again, on a different one, then replace all. Anything man made is apt to give problems.
Thanks Jeffrey. AG
they don't make metal like they used too , back in the day we had our own steel mills in the USA .
Thanks for the comment. I actually worked for US Steel once. Zug Island. AG
Seeing how that wasn't your fault, how much would one charge for a house call like that?🤔👍
No charge! Fortunately, Joe only lives 20 minutes away. I have already returned and replaced the spring. AG
@@goldsgarage8236
Ok, well at least the video will help pay for fuel going there and back and you got to make a video to do that.🤷
Oh and shouldn't the machine shop that built the heads warranty the spring?
That's what happens when you use 'customer furnished' parts. Normally most places either 1) refuse to use customer parts (for good reason) or 2) provide NO warranty. He's just a nice guy.
Thanks Vince. AG
If piston at TDC how can valve fall beyond reach?
It can't that is why I put it at TDC, however you need air pressure to hold the valve against the head when depressing the spring to remove the keepers. AG
Did you spin the valve ?
Did it seem straight ?
Yes, the valve is ok. AG
I think I have it figured out.
Thanks for watching David. AG
Nice looking rocker arms!! What brand?
Thanks for the question Eric. They were provided by the customer. Joe, can you answer this please? AG
I would replace them all they must all be junk to brake in a mild application that does not RPM.
Thanks Jim.AG
Joe! Buy some fender protectors !
Good advice, thanks AG
Chinese springs?
Stay away from any speedmaster part's.
Thanks for watching and commenting Vernon. AG
thank you for the video
Thanks for watching and commenting.AG
Better hope it didn't coil bind and start to take out the cam
Thanks Scott, everything looks ok. i did double check for coil bind and it was fine.AG
Never use SBI Z28 al cheapo springs obl, use beehive by Isky etc
Thanks for the comment.AG
Chinese? Metal fatigue or improper heat treating, I Know, is a problem with Chinese metal parts, I`ve seen it before.
thanks for the comment Ted.AG
Inferior Chinesium parts?
I found the problem while driving to look at the pontiac you build the best engines on the planet and drive a ford?? LOL. I have seen this first hand the damage is catastrophic even at an idol LUCKY GUY .if it had droped a valve you would have been to blame even though you did not do the heads. stop starting the engine.
Thanks for the nice comment and a little levity Gordon. AG
Valve/lifter
Thanks Jim, lifter is ok. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Yes, i commented early, i realize you found the springs binding or something
yeah lets put a 600 lift cam in and use weaker than stock valve springs from car quest cause we heard they use corvette valve springs! dumb meets dumber
I would love for you to build a motor for me whiling to pay
Sure, just contact me and we can talk about it. 226-980-7499. AG
I hope they are not from china. I have heard of copy cat springs that would not make it down the block.
Thanks for the comment, I didn't supply them so i don't know. AG
I cylinder looks bad , fowled plugbutcommresiongood,? Checked cylinders to left and right ruled out head gasket leak i 100 % find it to be abad card gasket or sealcausing a general over rich slight condition with just one plug and cylinder looking reallyfoweled replace carb gasket it solves the issue. Chevy guy here taught by my old man. This issue is also indicated by very little to no change in iddle mixture scews response even if botto.ed out. If its the rigjt mixture screw not making a change its the rihht plenum of carb to intake gasket withe issie, bad gasket and leak on right side or visa versa.
Thanks for your comment Alex.AG