BUDGET 350 CHEVY BUILD! 4/7 SWAP Camshaft on 87 PUMP GAS for 380-400HP!
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In the first video of this series, we talk about budget building a 350 SBC using a stock GM bottom end. We saved money by staying out of the machine shop, and used that money to buy better parts. We will be trying an @SummitRacing 1202 4/7 swap camshaft on this build, fitted with ProMaxx 185cc aluminum cylinder heads , and topped with an Edelbrock Performer RPM Dual plane intake manifold.
This is a build anyone can do in their garage, with off the shelf parts, and have a reliable high performance street engine that will run on 87 Octane!
#summitracing #chevrolet #350 #sbc
Thinner low tension piston rings showed up at about the same time as the roller cam did in OEM blocks. Those blocks rarely show much wear in the cylinders. The last one I took apart was a 1990 engine that had 170,000 miles on it and you couldn’t feel a ridge at all.
Thanks Angela. Another factor is that those engines were fuel injected. A lot of wear is on a carbureted engine is during the first few minutes during a cold start, as unspent fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls.AG
I’m an older guy doing first engine work.. converting a flat tappet 350 to roller. Two biggest problems are 1. Cleaning everything, and 2. determining correct parts (camshaft, springs, pushrods, etc.).
Thanks Dan, same two problems for me. AG
Machine shop work... trick is don't make them do too much diy stuff: basic cleaning and plug removal, deburring and any reasonable teardown is worth doing beforehand. I don't attempt sleeve removal for example, if something is chowdered - they got that covered [and I would just make a mess of it]. Machines make them money, other stuff kind of gums things up. Last mock up I did was pretty tight - had to get mains re-honed. Stripped it down and brought the crank along so they could mic it. They cleaned up after their work, and I started back at mock up once again, and all went well.
I had looked up chevy's numbers for 1968 one time: 2.06M units sold, if I remember. Not sure what part of that was 350's, but I think Nick's number is pretty good. Roughly speaking [accounting for straight 6's]... somebody had to make near 30M lifters for that year alone - wow.
I like that cam: should be plenty of fun for street, with a little lope. Since divider is not milled on the intake... 650cfm carb?
A lot of good information. Thanks for commenting Flinch.AG
Another excellent video Allan, I think it would benefit some viewers who are new to engine building to see the engine being cleaned up and honed. Just a thought for some viewers
Thanks Tony, excellent suggestion. We will get to it eventually. AG
👍👍👍 Good show, be curious see how that cam works.
Thanks Marc. We will keep you informed. Dyno date pending. AG
Video idea... how to properly set poly locks! Ive had a great experience building my first engine despite some set backs first i screwed up and put solid lifters on a hydraulic flat tappet, cam manufacturer said set em at .004 and you should be good to go! So i did thus thing has run really great! But i can't get these poly locks to stay locked down. Thanks for your time and years of experience that you so diligently share Mr. Gold!
Thanks Michael. i will do that at the next opportunity. For now, there is a sure fire way that you can use.
If you are adjusting to 1/2 turn after zero lash, get the adjustor to about 3/8 turn. Tighten the allen screw as much as you can, then turn the adjustor nut and allen screw together the rest of the way. The torque from the adjustor will jam your allen screw so it will never loosen. Hope this helps. AG
Perfect, thanks Allen!
I had my engine built with 4/7 swap cam. I didn't care if it improves power. My engine builder said he does the swap with mountain motors with large stroke and find due to the fire sequence bearings always look good. Also it helps with intake distribution with a large plenum. Idle is also smoother as well. Chevrolet revised to the LS fire order to further improve crank bearing wear. Great content Alan, keep it coming!
Thanks Len, a good case for the 4/7 swap. AG
Ls firing order is different than 18736542 !
Ls is 18726543
Thanks again, this is good usable info. The cost advantage at the pump for 87 octane is a big consideration, when the engine is going in a fun daily driver.
It really is a big factor over the lifetime of a budget high performance street engine, it's a fair chunk of beer and pizza.
Thanks for your comment Marcus. I agree, for the sake of a few HP, the savings on 87 fuel is worth while.AG
4,7 swap, now you have the other corner (2,4) firing 90 degrees apart, moved the problem to another location, but still the same problem.
Good point, thanks for commenting Tom.AG
Another good video.
With some of my ‘budget’ engine rebuilds (even if you using standard OEM piston, I now tend to get the blocks hot tanked and the bores professionally honed. I’ve found the results are worth the few extra dollars there and if I ever have to replace pistons I’ll lash out and get the rotating assembly balanced. 👍🇦🇺
Thanks for your comments Big Al. AG
Greetings: Good show. Thx 4 the share. Bsafe
Thanks DK. Will do. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Greetings: Welcome.
Another awesome video
Thanks JMc. AG
nice cam. Perfect real street cam! The 4/7 probably wont make much more hp, but does even out the stress on crank.. This cam you could put in literally anything and be ok..
Thanks Chris.AG
ALAN I HAVE THAT EXACT BOOK AND I BOUGHT IT IN 1994 AND I STILL HAVE IT SITTING HERE IN MY SHELF. THAT'S A GREAT BOOK
Also just so nobody thinks Alan is crazy concerning the bearings, we have reused rod and main bearings sometimes for 5 and 6 seasons in a row. When they come out looking like they came out of the box and your bearing crush is still perfect you don't take a risk you keep a known good part.
Thanks Brian, I am struggling to find time to read it again, but it is interesting to re-read it many years later. so much has changed. Bill was a visionary and took a deeper dive into everything. At the same time, some of it is now obsolete with so many great aftermarket parts available. Bill had to sort through a lot of OEM stuff to find the best available. We are actually pretty lucky today.
Thanks for backing me up on the bearing comment. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 absolutely
Grumpy was the man in NHRA. I have not used an 880 Block. but I have used the old 3970010 block. 010 block is still the best block out there. they used them in all the high-performance engines, and trucks as you mentioned, but they also used them in heavy duty application like taxi cabs and cop cars. I have 2 in my collection of spare parts. both are 4 bolt. one is a L82 from a 74 corvette with .020 over pistons. bores look good, I can see the cross hatch in the hone job, but the cam went flat in it, so I got it for a dirt cheap. the other is out of a 77 Caprice taxi. its standard bore, has a .005 ridge and taper at the top of the block. so it needs to be bored .010 to clean it up. rod and main bearing s std/std I plan to rebuild the L82 to factory spec and sell it off. the one out of the caprice, i plan to turn in to a clone of an LT1 350. but with the Trick Flow's aluminum clone of the 186 camel hump head. and find an old nova to dump it in. and make a tribute to a Yenko Deuce.
As far as the 4/7 cam swap stuff, from dyno test I have seen and from watching Engine Masters with the great Steve Brule, there is not much difference between a standard pattern cam vs a 4/7 swap cam on a street motor, any differences were within the margin of error on the Dyno for the street motors, but on a 540 chevy big block, 14:1 compression, single plane intake, full on race engine there was a 20HP difference at peak HP. but you don't see any gain until over 5000 rpm. so realistically you may see 3-5 HP on a street engine at peak.
I think the reason for the difference in power is due to better airflow in sequence. example cylinder 7 is filling right after cylinder 5. on a 18436572 firing order engine. so cylinder 7 is stealing air/fuel flow from cylinder 5. so, neither cylinder is filling to full capacity on a naturally aspirated engine with a single plane manifold. with the firing order change there are no adjacent cylinders filling at the same time. 4 and 8 are on opposite ends of the intake, where in the 5 and 7 are right next to each other. again, this would only matter in a single plane intake. you won't see a difference on a dual plane intake. I have heard some people say its because of better crank harmonics with the 4/7 swap or because of better temperatures in the block because 5 and 7 are no longer firing adjacently and eliminates a hot spot at the back of the engine. the NASCAR guys used to run -6 coolant lines from the back of the intake on the old Gen 1 small blocks, so there may be something too that, but those are full on race engines not street cars. I think there may be something too all 3 theories, but you may gain a couple of HP from better cooling, a couple from better crank harmonics, but I don't think either of those, by themselves or together, would be with worth 20 hp on a 540 BBC. I think the majority of the HP gain would be from better airflow dynamics at high RPM. that is just my 2 cents. only three ways to make more power, 1. ingest more air and fuel, 2. reduce frictional losses and 3. improved combustion efficiency. I would love to see that tested with a naturally aspirated BBC race engine with a single plane intake like a Victor Jr or Super Victor and so O2 probes in all the headers. my bet is that with a standard cam, cylinder 7 is stealing some of the fuel mixture from cylinder 5. #5 will go a little lean and 7 will run a little rich. just because of the airflow dynamics in a single plane intake. since #7 starts filling when #5 is about halfway through its intake stroke. this cause flow to stall in the #5 cylinder and for it to lag as it beginning of filling #7. a dual plane intake like the performer RPM feeds 5 and 7 from different side of the intake plenum so I don't believe you will see an HP gain that can be quantified to a 4/7 swap cam.
if i had access to a dyno and was just testing this, i would 1 grab a baseline pull with O/2 with a standard cam and dual plan intake like the Performer RPM. then swap to a single plane intake and compare the AFR on cylinders 5 and 7.I bet this will show the #7 is stealing intake charge from #5. then swap from a factory balancer to a better harmonic balancer like an ATI, Rattler or Fluidamper. and see if there is a change, then i would add the auxiliary cooling lines to the intake last the NASCAR buys used to do ad see if that made power. then swap to the 4/7 swap cam and back to the factory balancer. repeat the tests. then compare each of the tests to get an apples-to-apples comparison. that's a lot of work to only verify a 20hp gain at peak on a 540.
Thanks for your detailed and insightful comments Shad. AG
880 roller block is my favorite sbc, last I heard still hecho en mexico
I think you are correct Captain.AG
3970010 block was only 2 bolt in 1968. 69-79 it could be 2 or 4 bolt found in cars, trucks, vettes whatever pretty much. Mines .060 over for my current build in progress and it’s been checked by a very good machinist and it’s very good to go. Will be nice with my 3.75 stroke 43 pound crank and 6” rods with wiseco pistons.
Thanks Thumper, sounds like a nice build. Please keep us posted.AG
@@goldsgarage8236 will do I enjoy your videos no beating around the bush and straight to the facts.
Yet another cool video, Alan- and I can’t wait to see the dyno results.
I’m guessing at 375 hp at 5500 rpm 400tq at 3900rpm.
Thanks again!👍🏻
thanks you Leo, we will see what happens.AG
Thank You for the video
I look forward to the carb comparisons etc
I like thiose Quadrajets
Hard to find a reasonable priced source for secondary hangers and rods
but whe you get one of those Quadrajets tuned , they worke very good
and will feed 470+ LBFT & 400+ HP engine Nicely , and nothing looks suspicious under the hood.
I have a SBC with a professionaly tuned Quadrajet that looks lik a beat up hunk of junk ,
looks like crap , works awesome !!!! ,
Thanks for your comments Nerrad. Bill is making 600HP on a 350 9.3:1 Olds engine in his drag car with a Quadrajet. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 That is awesome !!! , Bill knows the Quadrajet !!!!!!!!I look forward to seeing the comparisons , Thanks again AG .... Keep 'em coming !!
If you are going to reuse a old oil pan. And its really dirty. Burn it, toss it in a gas or charcoal grill or a old cook stove oven. Crank it as high as it goes. And look leave it for a while. Maybe soak it in kerosene first. Do not leave ANY in the pan!!! Two times I saw things cleaned this way, one when I was a kid, i put frozen french toast in s 8-9" cake pan. That had cookedbon oil and grease on the outside. I put it in the oven.. to cook. Get distracted, end up leaving that friday for the weekend! That Sunday i remember. Oven still on. The toast is gone. Not a sign of it. And the pan looks like new. The baked on oils gone that been there for years. Another, i bought as oil ppl pan from a guy, it was in a crappy tiny building, not much bigger than a dog house. For keeping a lawn mower and a few things, it had cardboard boxes of old fire wood and the oilpan,! The old rotten building building gets burned down. Wrll i go in to the hole it was a small celler under it. To get it. Besides having ashes on iton it. Its clean as can be no. Oil, paint grime, it was filthy i was not looking forward to cleaning it. I wash it with gas and then soap . Blow it dry and pop isn't it wasn't easy to find one peace seal sbc pans at the time. And mine had a drag, and a slow leak. cook it úin a gas grill until it stops smoking. The shut off the gas and let it cooltake it out a few hours later. It should Be spotless .. blow it out really good with 100+ psi air. And paint it! Or high temp primer.
Wow! Sounds like a lot of work. Thanks for commenting James. AG
Great video Alan, more common sense
Thanks Bill.AG
Not sure how I missed this one. Hey congrats on the subscriber numbers. I remember when you only had a few hundred. 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Thanks for helping my channel grow Gary. AG
Just checking (from a real raw noob - you never learn unless you ask)). Are you saying running 3.5 thou piston to cylinder clearance will be fine instead of the book-specified value of 2.5 thou max?
Good question, thanks Dave. Sure it will. often for a performance build, we add a thou or so clearance anyway. It is still within factory tolerance. AG
I got one back in 2010 to step up to a roller camshaft for my C4. Great deal from Scoggin Dickie... $600 for a short block but its got dished pistons 😢
That's an awesome price Marcus. Thanks AG
at some point would be interesting to dyno with HEI then switch to a MSD crank triger it's a little more work to set it up right and costly rumor has it is worth 15 HP reason being timing is steady no jumping around. look forward to the dyno of the budget build great heads.
Thanks for watching and commenting Gordon. AG
Hey Alan I think that engine might make around 410 horsepower at 36 degrees of total timing. I think it's going to take you about 4 pulls before the engine starts being consistent with the horsepower output. That seems to be the case whenever you hand hone a cylinder just because the surface is a little rougher. And I think it will make that with a 750 carb with a 1-in open carb spacer. Anyways man looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Thanks Brian, I would be happy with that, so i hope your predictions work out. We will try a 750 with the spacer for sure. AG
To bad he can run that puppy for 5,000 or better yet 10,000 miles before the dyno session to give those chrome Molly rings enough time to seat. Those rings are WAY overkill for a budget build like that. Regular Molly rings will seat as soon as the cam break in is done. They even sell ring break substance that can be applied to the cylinder walls to make the regular Molly rings break in faster. It comes in a small 1 oz container enough to do 8 cylinders. I can't recall the name of the stuff though.😎👍
@@itseithergonnaworkoritaint7852 yes they do make ring seal assembly lubricant but the only thing a lot of people don't realize is after three pulls on a engine Dyno those rings are seated. So they will be fine. You will see the first pull make some power and then the second pull makes more power and then the third pull will make even more power and then by the time you're on the fourth pull it' will steady out from the piston rings seal. Should be a good time
@@SalterRacingEngines
From my experience and the feedback I have heard about the chrome Molly rings is they're super hard and take a very long time to seat. I'll take your word for it though that 4 pulls will be the charm.🤷
The old timers I talked to about those rings back in the day (I'm no spring chicken myself) claimed the engine burned oil for the first 10,000 miles with those rings. After that they were surprised that it stopped and started running even better.
Perhaps those rings made a bit differently now than they were 30 or 40 years ago? I know the "plasma Molly" and plain "Molly" rings are way softer than the old school chrome Molly rings. I'll have to check into this, now I'm curious if they're different from the ones from all those years ago, thanks.😎👍
Thanks for the discussion guys. Good to have experts weighing in. We have used the same rings many times in the past. We always gain HP and torque from the first to last pull, but because we are making tuning changes also it is difficult to tell how much of the gain is from ring seating vs. tuning. I will pay more attention to this when we get to the dyno.AG
The 187 was the case they gave me!🎵🎶. How about going into detail on the firing order swap,and the theory of why do it, and the Next cylinder available for firing seap?
Thanks James, will do that for you. AG
I want a badass small block for my Corvette 😢
Thanks Marcus, this one will be ready soon.AG
The 880 block has shorter cylinders than the old style 010 blocks. Not an issue usually but with some 383/3.75 stroke builds if you are running stock length rods the piston comes out of the bore quite a bit on bdc and piston stability won't be as good.
Not all 880 blocks.
Good info, i did not know that. Thanks Robert.AG
Another really informative video, Mr. G..I have 3 of those 1996-2000 vortec engines .. i would like to turn one into a nicely mannered 383 for a 1969 camaro.. I would love some input from you on that if possible.
For sure Michael, fire away! nice Camaro.AG
@goldsgarage8236 thank you.. I'm not sure how I can contact you for such a matter. If you have business contact info, that may be best. Thank you for your reply.
Not sure why you went with the Stage 3 4/7 swap cam? The stage 4 or 5 would of been way more gooder. I think Cutter's Performance another Canadian page on here used the stage 6 IIRC and made 480 HP with slightly warmed over Vortec heads and I think it was 11.5:1 static compression.
So I'm guessing the use of the Stage 3 is so you can do a comparison with that similar cam from the other build you mentioned? Anyway if you can find a set of the 1.72:1 roller rockers on the other side of the border, those would help reach more of that higher lift flow I mentioned to you in your last video.
With those heads and the 1.6:1/1.5:1 in and ex combo I will guess you're going to make more torque than HP. My guess is 340 HP and 380 lb ft of torque.😎👍
Because this engine is built on spec, we decided to use a camshaft that will work in anything from a truck, to a Camaro.
I agree, the camshafts you mentioned would make more power. Watch for the dyno video in the near future, we’ll see how it does. Thanks for your comments as always. AG
What timing chain set are you using, and is that a Milodon gold cover up front??
Hi Alley Oop, yes it is. The timing set is a Cloyes double roller 9-1100.
Thanks for commenting as always. AG
most of the 4/7 swap effect is just moving the adjacent cylinders from 5/7 to 2/4 D/S rear corner to P/S front doesn't really change fix, much of anything
Thanks for the comment. You are probably correct but that it why we test. AG
When doing the 4/7 swap, i would think that cylinders 5 and 7 would possibly run cooler and they are not close to the incoming water from the pump. I have read that it increases bearing life or crank life and I am not one to diagnose firing pulses and its effects on cranks. I am thinking of getting a cam with the 4/7 swap only to see if it helps engine cooling near the firewall. Have you ever heard of this?
Good question. Bill Jenkins paid a lot of attention to cooling and equal distribution of temperature between cylinders, but I don't think it would be a significant factor for a street engine. AG
Nice basics. Tip to the wise on cleaning; learn how to do electrolysis cleaning
Thanks for the tip James.AG
Hello Mr. G how are you. I have a question about a Pontiac 400 that had to be bored ,060 to get rid of rust. Will those cylinders be too thin for high performance and would it strengthen the cylinders if I have all of them sleeved to .030 ??? Will be using a summit SUM-2801 cam. That is an indication of what performance level I will be building. The block came out of a 1969 Grand Prix its not the awful thin 500557 that was used in the smog era that made only 220hp
Thanks for the question Christopher.
Many Pontiac 400 blocks have been bored .060 but, it’s always a good idea to have them sonic checked. Sleeving the block after boring could become cost prohibitive, and may be better to source another block. Your machine shop should be able to provide guidance on this.
We have used the Summit 2801 in the past, it’s a very nice mild street camshaft.
AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thank you Mr. G 👍
As a Pontiac guy, your only issue will be the temp gauge. It will run warmer than a normally hot Pontiac. I am a 108 Lsa guy so 2801 not my choice.
I have this exact same 69 4 bolt 010 block at the machine shop right now getting cleaned up and bored .040. Was out of a buddies 69 300 HP Chevelle. He gave it to me since he's doing a restomod 6 litre ls conversion.
I'm very curious to see how much power your budget combination makes on 87 octane fuel.
Thanks Captain. We will let you know when we have a dyno date for it.AG
Did a 4-7 test on engine masters, not worth it unless going all out and need every hp available
Thanks for the info MB.AG
It is easier on the crank bearings. That is worth it.
Good video! You said you used to differing rocker ratios but is the push rod the same? And what is the advantage of 2 ratios
Good question Elaine. It depends on how efficient the intake side is vs. the exhaust side. since the biggest restriction to making power is getting A/F mixture past the intake valve, usually 1.6 on the intake works better. if the engine has a restrictive exhaust system, the 1.6 on the exhaust might work better. AG
One more point, only testing will tell for sure.AG
I have two here at my house right n renfrew ont
Thanks Trevor, you are lucky, put them to good use. AG
1969 to 1973 are best, in 1974 they lightened the block a bunch.
Thanks for the info DZ, I did not know that. AG
You need a better camera man. When you are pointing out things he needs to zoom in to see what you’re talking about
yes a 38 -40 yr ok i bay a ls
The most important question is why when you are right handed, do you always get a hole in your pants on the right knee?????
Thanks Racer, I knew someone would notice that. Actually, I am left handed and the worn out knee in my jeans is from kneeling over the race car during pit stops. We do have knee pads, but sometimes I don't bother to wear them. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Ya my mistake, I am right handed and all my pants have a hole in the right knee. Crazy stuff. You are doing a great service with all your Vids.
What oil pump/pickup you used
Thanks Daniel, just a standard Melling pickup, same as every OEM. AG
Melting oil pump? Standard oil pressure or high volume/high pressure?
So we tell lots of lies, sorry the Michigan block ,and the roller blocks that are not machine you can do it.
That's a unicorn block man. Those blocks in poor condition bored .040 are going for $400 to $600 here in South Carolina. I went through 4 010 four bolt blocks that were cracked before giving up and buying a dart SHP block. Been a few years, pre Biden, they were only 1700 then
Thanks Reeves. Guess i got a pretty good deal on this one.AG
Laying the crankshaft down on its side does absolutely nothing, if the crankshaft was that flimsy, it would have self-destructed in the engine at idle speed.
You are correct Jeff. Thanks for watching and commenting. AG