Love this shoe talk for us running nerds 🤙🏿🤓 Loving the SL2 as my daily driver. So comfy (even for walking), bouncy and can pick up the pace. Really is bargain of the year. Can't wait to get the EVO SL
ZoomX story sound very interesting. I am a nerd and enjoy your deep dives. The analytical structured method that you use makes your channel stand out. Thank you for the great content!
Good may have helped you decide to try the Zoom Fly 6. Definitely one I am wanting to put on my feet and indeed have been taking it out for my recent road interval sessions and longish runs and "resting" Vaporflys for just a bit of a weight reduction lift when really want the best I have for me. Seen a few who don't like it but surely that applies to anything. Like says the Superblast 2 is not "loved" by everybody either it seems. Look forward to your thoughts on Dragonfly vs Victory spikes too. Still not sure if "need" the NB5 but having had the previous four maybe I ought to try it...
You are part of the “influencer” on the ZF6… but I’ll also explain the full story in the initial video I do on them. Did a session in the DF2 this morning. Very good. Very different from the V2… need more time in them.
Actually, I have reached in the Zoom Fly years ago, in the ZF3… though I doubt I’d race in the ZF6 for anything. I’ll tell my story in the review next month.
I’m really hyped for the Vomero 18 actually. Feels like Nike needs a BANGER to renew the hype around their training shoes, and it’s hard to beat super max stack with versatility for $150
I would be interested in your ZoomX deep dive. Obviously, ZoomX is now a closely related family of foams, evolving over time and use case. I am glad you decided to cover ZoomFly 6. If it is truly worthy I might pick them up sometime next year if I catch a pair offered at a good discount. Right now, I have more shoes in my rotation than I truly need.
Excited that you're going to cover the Zoom Fly, I have been anti-Nike training for the last few years but took another chance on the Zoom Fly and really love them
@SagasuRunning if I had to pick one, I'd say the fact that the geometry is very smooth. It's fast, it feels fast and helps you turn over but it never feels out of control or overly bouncy/overly engineered. It just feels like it wants to go at whatever pace you want to push it to. I'd also say that I'm a huge fan of the upper/fit. I'm on the border between a single E and regular width, pretty tall foot with a high arch/instep and it's very accommodating
Re: ZoomX. Bring it on. I suspect there is chemistry and there is process which are both important. ZoomX is a brand which covers a variety of chemistry generations and processes but all based around a supercritical PEBAX of some sort. An analogy might also be Corning Gorilla Glass ion exchange borosilicate glass which is continually evolving. (Veritasium recently did a really good video on glass that includes this.) My impression is that even PEBAX the brand from Arkema is a family of related elastomers. PEBA is even more generic. I think that’s about as specific as saying something is “vinyl” or “polyester”.
Ya...it's definitely all of that. What I have dug into seems to be a slippery slope of me needing to learn ALOT about elastomers. Watching the Veritasium now... Fun fact...I grew up about 60mi from Corning, NY and a visit to the museum was a nearly a yearly school trip. I knew more about glass as a kid than any kid should...
Chris - love the content & been watching consistently since I discovered your channel a handful of months ago. In 2024 I’ve been exclusively training in NB and racing in Nike. I’ve noticed that NB is rarely, if ever mentioned on the channel. Was curious on your thoughts on the brand’s lineup and if you have any plans to incorporate any NB content in 2025.
I've talked a lot about NB actually in previous "shoe talk" videos (look for the thumbnails with some NB shoes in them). The TL:DR is I find NB's current engineering direction dismal...poor fits, bad materials, bad foam and way to wide. Iw as hoping to see some course correction for 2025, but it seems they are continuing with their current direction so I will unlikely be covering them anytime soon. The Rebel v4 was the shoe that really killed them for me. I ran extensively in the Rebel v1 & v2, the Streakfly then replaced them for me...the Rv4 is not a Rebel...it has none of the qualities of a Rebel...it's a mess. 🤷🏼♂️
ZoomX foam story: talk about history of running shoe midsoles. Rubber, EVA, and everything that followed. Where the Arkema corporation came in with the PEBAX material etc. etc. Looking forward to that video!
I would think the deep dive into ZoomX would be super interesting! Don't run in Nike's but I have notice the tendency of brands to call a foam a name and its clearly different between shoes with the same foam name and little or no explanation (Fresh Foam, Fuel Cell mostly bit also Pumas switch in names from Nitro Elite in MagMax which showed in some early versions to Nitro but not the same as the old Nitro, its actually last Gen Nitro Elite rebranded to avoid confusion with new Nitro Elite). Actually the Puma foam story is super interesting, any chance in a video on that?
Noted ✅ All brands are doing this with their foams. A certain product name foam means a "feel' more than anything to them. Though, I have to say Puma's whole foam story in 2024 was VERY confusing...
We will not be seeing a Pegasus 42 until ‘26, Nike has been working towards two year update cycles with their shoes as of late. I would love to hear your thoughts on two vs one year life cycles from a product designers perspective!
I would not count on past being prologue at Nike with recent sweeping changes at the top & within running. Also, if the U.S. hits China w/tariffs as its saying it will, the Nike Peg is made in Vietnam and may gain a significant price point advantage in it's class versus all the models made in China that are suddenly approaching $200 while the Peg 42 may still be able to hit the U.S. at $160. All we really know it what Nike's done in the past hasn't worked too well and I don't expect Nike to continue those patterns.
I'll believe this when I see it in regards to the Peg. However, if this is the case I'm all for it. I think two year dev cycles suit product releases in running well. The even/odd year of Peg updates with the upper only change on even years is fine but pointless ultimately. From a product design perspective it allows the team more time to focus on getting the details right. The issue though is it can also feel like they are moving too slow and can't react to industry shifts. So it can be frustrating. Nike has gotten the VF and AF alternating in years now. 2025 is a Vomero year which opens the door for 2026 to be the Peg year. So we will see. I'm cool either way.
Appreciate the insight! Nike is definitely putting energy behind the Vomero next year. That was the shoe they were showing off at TRE, while also showing Vomero Plus and teasing Vomero Premium to close out the year. It will be interesting to see if the two year cycle sticks or not, especially if Nike wants to continue to keep up with or pass the competition…
Agree. That will be interesting. A mass market shoe like the Peg though does have a logic to be yearly, if anything from a design language refresh/style for seasonal color trends , while the Plus and Premium could be 2 year cycles. That would make sense to me. We shall see. I’m very curious.
There are exploded views out there and at TRE they had the parts on display so there is video showing how the midsole fits together. The ZoomX part is basically the core of the shoe. Nearly the entire "ZoomX" sideall you see in profile has ZoomX behind it down the center of the foot. The cutout in the heel of the ReactX part seems to expose the ZoomX part. In the forefoot it seems like a 60/40 mix of ZoomX/ReactX... I didn't expect that mix...but it is there.
I've come to the conclusion that both my pairs of NB V3 are now collapsing in on the medial side and are due for retirement (600 and 700km). So I'm eagerly awaiting the NB V5 release to eat up daily KMs. I have a pair of Invincible V3's coming, and my V2's still have some life left in them at 800km. Which I plan to utilize for my 2 dedicated hill sessions per week till Boston. Really hoping to tighten up my rotation to the NB V5, Invincible VX, Tempo Next%, Superblast V2 and AlphaFly VX (depending on racing or targeted workouts) leading into Boston. But Adidas might throw a wrench into that...they really seem to be working on the heel lock issue. Boston 13 leaks has me excited. Everything Nike has done this year makes me firmly believe that the Tempo Next% V2 is coming. They have released all the new foams and tech that they could easily use to leverage a true upgraded version of the Tempo Next% (ZoomX variant frontal, ReactX rear, half Peg Premium air unit for the entire mid/forefoot). Nike needs a true training companion to the Alphafly, the Zoomfly is NOT it. I still have over 1,000km worth of workout training in my 2 newer pairs of Tempos, so I can wait and hope.
I actually think the ZF6 is the intended trainer to the AF3…. But I also think there may be a “plus” tier to the Zoom Fly, which would be an “Air Zoom” option. I talked about think in my Nike Structure video. It would make sense and lean into “air” more, a story Nike is running with now. The B13 looks just like the B12, though I believe it’s full LSP now. Honestly, they doesn’t excite me much. The PX3S though looks like Adidas making a Tempo Next% though…
@@SagasuRunning The Boston13 pics I have seen show an Adi EVO SL heel collar, not the traditional side strips with nothing in the spine of the heel. The crux of the heel lift issues. Now these pics could be BS, but I'm hoping they aren't.
Hi Chris! My SL2s are nearing end of life, I run 5-10k races, but training for a HM. Current rotation: Adidas SNR > SL2 > TS10 Struggling to decide on a SL2 replacement: Peg plus? NB5? Hang on for the Evo SL? What would you personally go for (if you were me)? Much love! 🫶
I think you hang on for the Evo SL as you seem invested in Addias. Otherwise the NB5 will be a fun alternative to the SL2. Personally I’d go Peg41/Prg Plus/VF3 right now… but that’s me.
I already thought you will "change" your opinion about the ZoomFly 6, it seems to be a really big surprise especially compared to the previous ZF6. Since the Victory 2 is not really going on sale (I only want the electric color ... :( ) I will go for the new streakfly... that should be a really good track shoe. Edid: ZoomX deepdive suuuure
The ZF6 story has a twist in it...I'll explain next month. Nike spikes never go on sale, at least the super spikes. I'm dying for the SF2...it's the track to road shoe I need for what I'm doing. I absolutely cannot wait for it. ✅ on the ZoomX video.
@SagasuRunning the other colors are on sale here in Germany, 160bucks, the dragonfly2 down to 130-150, but Iam a very aesthetic person, I only want the electric colorway and that stays at 200+ bucks at hour size 😤 So the SF2 it will be, should be the perfect track trainer. And its so ugly that its already pretty again ❤️
Interesting. I’ve never seen Nike’s super spikes on sale. The electric color way is great but I actually like my bright spruce DF2s better. I like white shoes. The SF2 will certainly be a track to road monster. I cannot wait. I’ve heard there will be a spiked version too… though I assume that will only be for Nike pros.
I'll assume you are worried about abrasion and/or the rubber pads. Honestly, there isn't much you can do. Shoe Goo around the heel pads is your best bet...
Any thoughts on the update to the Brooks Hyperion line? The updates were shown on the Running Warehouse channel. Personally, I’m glad they’re updating the foam, but overall I am disappointed. I’d enjoy a ZoomX video.
I'm actually excitied about the Hyperion Elite 4 PB, not so much the Hyperion Elite 5. On the fence about the Hyperion 3, but since I missed the 2 I may cover it anyway. I had zero interest in the Hyperion Max 2 last year and have less than zero interest in the Hyperion Max 3 this year. I think I will be covering a handful of Brooks shoes in 2025... ZoomX video ✅
@@SagasuRunningthe things that really disappoints me is the increase in stack height. I’m not sure who the Hyperion Max 2 was made for. Personally, I like it a lot because it’s a great occasional “speed” shoe for a heavy person like me, but I doubt people my size are their target audience.
@rumblerumble2276 I actually think larger runners ARE a big chunk of what Brooks builds product for. Brooks uses the “everyday runner” or “average runner” phrase a lot and they know their customer.
Vomero was the only Nike shoe that worked for me. Good balance of firmness and softness and just the right amount of midsole stack. Unfortunately, that was true until version 18 and I have no idea what Nike is doing with their lineups. On the other hand, I knew exactly what they have been doing with their pegasus series and so called ''premium'' version confirms it. They are going all in looks than performance similar to early reviews that suggest its more of an overpriced lifestyle shoe than an actual running shoe.
To your second point...I have to disagree. As someone who now has over 600k on the 41s and close to 200k on the Plus...your point couldn't be further off. Too each their own I guess.
@@SagasuRunning And how many miles do you have on Pegasus premium? Because my point was not strictly peg 41 and plus but the whole lineup. The majority of the reviewers and testers emphasize pegasus premium being a lifestyle shoe rather than a performance shoe. Not to mention, QC issues have gotten worse in the last two to three years many people reporting various problems and returning them. Where I live Nike had to stop shipping products because they couldn't handle the refund/return process. I can't order Nike products since early september. I read at least a dozen instances where testers had serious issues with full length air unit they couldnt even walk in the shoe let alone run. One of the reviewers also said that the upper quality is so bad that reminds him of the peg 32 from 2015. Does that sound like a 200$ shoe to you? I haven't had major issues with my streakfly and vomero in the past but that doesn't mean other people not having issues with products of this particular brand. If you look you will also see.
Did I? I've heard of a plated Novablast coming...but didn't think I mentioned it in a video, though it is in the comments. Otherwise the new Asics shoes I've been talking about are super shoes, something (we think) like the Evo 1 from Adidas. That is in my "Elite" video (you can see it in the thumbnail) and a few others.
Thnx. I must have heard wrong then. If it helps, listened to the last few videos again and again 😅. Love the channel. Thank you for answering and the hard work.
No worries. There is definitely a “super trainer” type shoe coming from Asics (I’ve heard the plated Novablast is called the “Sonicblast”?) but it’s not the type of thing I talk about here generally. I know that type of shoe will make many happy though. Given how good the NB5 is…I may even try it! Thank you for the kind words on the content and support. 🙏🏻 🤙🏻
To be honest, I was a bit shocked and disappointed when you first time said you didn’t want to cover the ZF6. And specifically the fact that you didn’t see the point because of SR02 and that that was a “every day shoe foam”. From what I can see now, there is a lot of hype around the ZF6, and how mega comfortable and soft it is to run in, and how great it is for long runs with tempo intervals. I’m not saying all this to be negative and complaining, but saying so to be transparent and let you know of a decrease in my feeling of “shoe-talk integrity”, if you could call it that. With this is mind, it would for me be very very positive to hear you talk even more nerdy and maybe even “chemistry related” about foams. Especially something like versions of ZoomX would be mega appreciated! Thanks for the content again, and hope you receive the constructive feedback well 🙏 All the best 🤙👟
I know why the ZF6 exists and it fits in a place for the lineup very well. It does great some complexities though, which is one of the things I plan to cover. That being said I will ALWAYS train in the shoe i intend to race in. Price of running shoes is not a concern for me (coming from cycling). So buying multiple super shoes with limited durability for a build is my preference. So I personally don't need a shoe like the ZF6...but I can cover it from a lineup POV and I do want to run in it so I can recommend it where appropriate. I'll talk more about this in my review. I never said i didn't see the point of SR-02 foam. I was surprised they made that choice on the ZF6 over Cushlon 2.0 though. Durability is similar between the two as is feel...cost though must differ greatly. I never expected the ZF6 to get the ZoomX/ReactX combo though...that makes more sense in the Vomero. That being said...one of the focuses for the channel in 2025 is going to be a "do more with less" tone as far as rotations go... so something like the ZF6 fits into that nicely for many runners. I greatly appreciate the feedback though. Thank you. 🙏🏻
@ Thank you for your clarification. It makes more sense now. For me it just sounds like a lot of people really enjoy the ZF6 and especially its comfort and versatility, and I wasn’t exspecting that to be honest form a sandwich carbon plated shoe (though it is a soft carbon plate apparently). But anywho, it sounds great with your 2025 focus on “bang for the buck”, and helping people to make better choices in their own running journey. I’m looking forward to see this in the future. Just like hopefully a lot of good Nike content 🙏👟 Really glad you appreciate the feedback, and took it so nicely. I really appreciate your content, so I’m just glad my opinion is valued in some way. Wish you all the best! 🙌
One of the things I’m most curious about in the ZF6 is just how flexible the plate is. Nike, unlike most other brands, designs in flex to their plates as part of the propulsion of the shoe. The ZF series has always been too rigid due to the previous foams… so it’s something you never felt, like in a VF. So I’m curious to experience this one. I see the dialog in these comments as a conversation. I want the feedback, especially from people like you that are active and have been around for a while and have watched a lot of my content. I appreciate it deeply! 🤙🏻
@ Nice to hear your feedback on the plate. My coming from the motorsporting world, carbon fiber is a big deal, used in many applications. So you telling them used differently in shoes, automatically spark my curiosity for a “deep dive” into the tech around these shoes 👟🙌 Thanks again for feedback! I’m very appreciative for you recognizing me, and knowing I’ve been around for some time now. You are the most nerdy shoe-tuber I follow, and I likewise appreciate it very much. Thank you Sagasu 🙏🏁 Have a nice day!
@Skjoldborg8 I come from racing snowboards/skateboards AND bikes….carbon fiber all over all of those. I’m very well aware of the flex characteristics you can build with the material for a lever like a CF plate in a shoe. It’s a fascinating material. I’m also a F1 and MotoGP fan… so seeing what CF is in those spaces is also fascinating.
Possible ZoomX class action suit? Reasonable consumers are being misled by Nike that the ZoomX in its training shoes are the same as in its super shoes?
No…. Nike (and all brands) have been clear that their super foams are “a feel” and not a chemistry. Nike, Adidas, Asics… they all have done this. It’s partly why brands don’t actually wave a huge flag on chemistry alone. Instead they talk about ride, reliance, feel… that they can achieve any number of ways…
@@SagasuRunning Found this old article on Nike’s website around the time of the original Pegasus turbo: “The Nike ZoomX midsole delivers 85% energy return, the greatest of any Nike foam, to give you a propulsive feeling as you move forward.” What if the ZoomX in its current trainers doesn’t deliver the same 85% energy return because of its different chemistry?
@steevie76 I actually believe it’s likely more. Manufacture efficiencies and understanding of the materials is an improvement. I remember how OG ZoomX felt vs our currently primary variations (in the VF/AF/DF) or the rubberized one (Plus) and both current versions are better…by a lot.
Peaks may be the only platform with a WORST UI and architecture. I lived in Peaks for 10+ years as a cyclist... I have no desire to go back, ever... even if I work with a coach someday. However, Peaks is a good tool if that is what you need. It's not what I need.
Nope. Peaks is the dominate one in the space due and the one the majority of coaches want to use. I did used to do my indoor cycling training in Trainer Road, which I liked the UI of… but I know Peaks owns them now and not sure what has changed in the platform.
@@SagasuRunning does Garmin (assuming you use a Garmin?) not offer the same data? Starva sub is more info than I need but I find lots of useful info in Garmin stats. I haven't done a comparison of data of course, between Strava sub and Garmin
I’m not a Garmin user. I’m an Apple Watch user. I have all the same data in Apple Workouts…. I’m just used to how Strava presents it to me in the app…. It’s been 10 years of seeing it like that and I’m very used to it.
Interesting position regarding comparison of shoes which I honestly don't see too often, but you keep stressing it in a lot of your videos. And which in my opinion is odd - as I firmly believe that year is only a number on paper. If a product is good, and especially if it's still available, then it's just good, year doesn't make it less worthy. If it's bad, then the fact that it's from newer generation doesn't save it. It's not an advantage, because shoes are shoes, not the abstract entities made to be classified and categorized or be thrown out of categorization based on a formal criterion. Imagine someone approaches you and says that a shoe you like a lot is actually a "two generations old" shoe. Would you still use it or ditch it based on the "year" column in a spreadsheet? There are good examples of cult following for models like Saucony Endorphin Speed v1/v2, which were considered instant classics by many within the community thanks to their exceptional performance and opted for even after next versions were out. Or Nike fans who keep comparing everything to Alphafly 1 which they actually still use in their training/racing routines. In this light, running as a field of interest and activity as well running shoes is something, dare I say, animated and practically inspired. Your approach to running shoes appears to be more theoretical (or classificational) rather than practical, which of course you are totally entitled to, and it's just something I found myself willing to point out, since, ultimately I appreciate your thoughtful attitude even though I may not fully agree with some points in it.
Well... I stress it because it's important on a channel like what I'm doing. I'm trying to cover whats current. That means new. So my focus is always going to be prioritizing the new and the current generation of product. I will cover older shoes, or revisit ones from the past. I agree that just because something is "old" (relative) doesn't make it bad. It's more my editorial decision on the channel as a whole. So "old" shoes will get a different format and I make a point not to compare then directly to the new, other than some loose points here and there. More importantly though it the product development cycle. This is the main distinction for me. A shoe 1+ generations behind the current has (at least) 1 less generation of development, testing, learning, materials, etc in it's development. Which puts it at a disadvantage to the current generation in a product sense. Yes, product teams can make wrong turns and regress the product, even with those learnings...but that is a different problem of their own creation. This is my product design background and the editorial decision I made about the channel when I started it. To you question on the spreadsheet of shoes with a date column. Absolutely I would sort it by the data column before I did anything else with it...
@@SagasuRunningthere's a logic and reason behind your point. However, some implications that go along with your point are questionable. In particular, you envision shoe development as a gradual process of improving the shoe, without considering commercial and accommodation bias, as well as other factors which occasionally may not just lead to improving the shoe (as the backing intent behind its development), but may totally shift it across the lineup by recalibrating its purpose. In that sense, development is inherently not linear, but arbitrary in many ways and hence cannot be seen as a process primarily lead by learning and improving (at least from original shoe purpose standpoint), and thus the next versions are not supposed to be taken for granted as better products in all senses, as "better" can relate to better performance in one case and better commercial success in the other, or any other dimension for that matter. And that is perfectly reflected in people's feedback. These days, older generations are often not as accommodating (i.e. stable, safe or universal), but may easily be more performant, have the edge in particular areas. That is simply because we have reached the plateau where technologies are advanced enough and further development may sometimes not be a development as such, but merely a shuffle of those existing technologies.
From a product design standpoint point and how the team sees it… trust me, marketing or bottom line considerations factor in at the management level… but at the team level they are focused on improvement the product cycle after cycle. In my nearly 30 year career never once was I part of a product team or a lead on a time and though “let’s make this next generation worst than the last.” Sometimes you do go down wrong development paths and sometimes external factors limit resources or budgets so you can’t do all that you had wanted… but you always do something to improve. I don’t know your professional background, maybe it’s in product management of design… but I’m speaking from experience directly. Now to your point of older products being preferred… this is a sign that the team went down a non fruitful path or balanced the product equation differently than the needs of some users. Specific to running, super shoes are an interesting engineering challenge. The needs of a global elite runner and a 4 hour marathoner are vastly different and it’s a hard line to balance. The VF2 to VF3 story, which I’ve covered in depth on this channel, is a fascinating case study. As I said, I cover older products on occasions to discuss their importance in the history or larger scope of running…. But I remain squarely focused on what’s next and that is the editorial priority on this channel.
@@SagasuRunning Beyond discussion is the manufacturer's intent of making a better product. Let me explain why I believe you still miss the point by concrete examples so we are not lost in terminology. NB Rebel v2 and v4 are already completely different models: v2 was much lower in stack, much more dynamic. The current v4 is not "better" - unless better means approachable - it's just different shoe, even though there are some objective factors like upper quality or stability where it has the edge. Shoes like Novablast v1 and Endorphin Speed v1-2 were very niche, aggressive and unstable. Novablast v1 had pretty bad upper and did require strong leg muscles. Are they as approachable as their modern revisions? By no means. But are the newer versions "better"? Well, let's see. Shoes must sell - and be as approachable as possible. If you release a shoe, even a good one, which has limited use or have specific requirements, it will not sell. If you go as far as to claim that "approachable" equals "better", then, well, most trending shoes of late years are definitely better. I tend to disagree with this flat scale, though. If a shoe is not safe enough, not comfortable enough, not versatile enough, big chances it's pushed by the market. Or, the other way around: popular shoe may gain even more commercial success if it acquires those qualities. However, lack of any of those doesn't necessarily mean the shoe is "worse" or "better". Magic Speed 3 is by no means worse than the v4, they are simply different. And Endorphin Elite v1 may turn out to be more efficient than the upcoming ultra soft v2, but it's regarded as demanding and harsh and this undoubtedly affects commercial result. Besides that, ultimately, I believe you misuse term "generation" by equalizing that term to the calendar year. What you refer to as generation is simply model version, and, if opted, that terminology does not lead to misconception. All the discussed shoes belong to the same generation of tech, more or less, and which renders them 100% comparable. Technological, constructional or performance gaps in most of these shoes (basically, 2-3, maybe up to 4 years) is not enough to claim that they belong to different generations. Some examples apply, without doubt. But shoes like Novablast v3, v4 and v5 as models of one generation are 100% comparable. If generation is otherwise perceived simply as a version number detached from any real-life criteria, then we have that artificial demarcation. Said that, I do still like your channel a lot and as I appreciate any thoughtful attitude.
@hexfire You made my point for me. I agree with your take on the Rebel v2 and v4. The v4 is a mess of a shoe and a complete insult to the Rebel name (which I have loved in the past). The NB team set out to make a “better” Rebel in the v4. They talked endlessly about it last year around release. They were very proud of the shoe and to them it was the “best Rebel yet”. While the shoe has been well received it’s not REALLY been received as a Rebel. It is something else all together. So the team clearly set out to make a better Rebel… but on my count they failed. They went down a wrong development path. It happens. The term “generation” is what product teams often use internally. Sometimes “cycle” or “season” (for shoes) is used. All are interchangeable. It signifies a distinct development cycle, starting with the previous model/generation and ending with the new. It’s a VERY clear start and stop line for the team. However, it isn’t always based on a year. Sometimes these generations or cycles can span 14 months or more. Sometimes these generations can span multiple years with smaller generations in there to get to a goal. This is how I use the term. This is my experience working in product design. Model years and generations are consumer facing and development facing respectively. So I draw a line. As I’ve said… I’m interested in what’s new and what’s next. Only if something is REALLY good or really personally important to me will I hold onto it. Otherwise I’m looking ahead with an eye to the past to tell the stories about how we got where we are today. Is it artificial? Sure, but who cares. That’s semantics.
The Peg Premium also has a combination of ZoomX and ReactX. Could we expect the standard Peg to eventually incorporate a similar combination of foams or would that be cost-prohibitive? I am quite curious about ZoomX as I've never ran on it, but I'd rather buy a Peg than a Vomero.😄The VF3 is a bit expensive and narrower than my AP3 around the midfoot area. Should the Peg Plus and the Evo SL both release here I'll be in quite the pickle, but I'm not holding my breath.😅
I doubt we will ever see ZoomX in. Standard Peg. Never say never though. The combo of foams in the Peg Premium are exciting. I’m so very curious. The Peg Plus vs Evo SL is going to be a big one for me whenever I can get a Evo SL…
@@SagasuRunning if they put in ZoomX in a Peg doesn't it then become a Vomero and both those lines are going forwards. As you mentioned though there are seemingly different types of "real" ZoomX bit like the AP3 and AP4 Lightstrike Pro. Wonder what the actual differences in manufacturing costs are...
about the ZoomX deep dive .... ZoomFly 5 - Pegasus Turbo Next Nature - Alphafly 1 Next Nature -> ZoomX = ShitX ... the ZoomFly 5 was the only Nike shoe ever that I sent back after only one run in them. Instant hate!
Ya...the recycled ZoomX was not great. I have the AFNN and the TNN... both were not great. The ZF5 was a mess for SO many other reasons as well, but the recycled ZoomX core didn't help at all.
@@SagasuRunning I think I saw on the Nike site that the ZF6 is also recycled Zoom X. I assume a type o as all receivers have been rejoicing at the chance to non recycled.
Almost half the video on Nike! As a running shoe focused video, i continue to be surprised that you devote so much time to a product line that by all indications continues to fall behind others shoe companies, losing market share and share of mind with the general running population. As someone for whom the Nike last doesn't work, and who likes your general insights, I find myself fast forwarding through the Nike info to get to what I'm really interested in....your insights into other shoes. Maybe you should split your channel into Nike focused and all other focused, maybe you'd find a broader audience? Again, love your insights, just fatigued by so much NIKE.
I'm a Nike runner. I've never hidden that. 60%+ of my running is in Nike product. 100% of my racing has bene in Nike product. If I didn't have this channel I'd likely be nearly 100% Nike all together. My focus on this channel has always been Nike first...then Adidas and/or Asics (they switch depending on who is more interesting in the moment) and then everyone else. I will be covering plenty of non Nike in 2025. Editorially I try to cover the all of running but it's still my POV on running. I'm trying to be broad, but not all inclusive. I'm ONLY going to cover what I'm interested in. If I don't want to run in it, I'm not going to cover it, even if I don't have to buy it...
@@SagasuRunning That's fair, and you have been clear on this. just whining ;-) Do you ever wonder if your Nike bias keeps you from shoes that you might love? As I said, I love the way you approach reviews and your consistency in the way you approach your reviews gives me a place to start on the shoes you compare Nike to that does narrow down my personal search, which is helpful. Thanks for the channel
@lenjanssen9600 No… because anytime I go away from Nike, like I did for the first 6 months of 2024… I always come back. Nike fits and foams just work for me, end of story. I now try EVERYTHING I’m interested in in the industry. Even things I wouldn’t be interested in if I didn’t have the channel…. Because I want to talk about them. I’ve been surprised a few times already (ES4 and EP4 come to mind). Finding a reviewer you like but disagree with on most counts is useful. I definitely used to have that and it would help me rule out shoes immediately or understand deeper why something didn’t (or wouldn’t) work for me. In some ways I would say it is more valuable.
As a forefoot striker I have zero issue with high drop. Plus with modern compressive foams, drop is a reference number at best…. 10mm with ZoomX is actually closers to 6mm, maybe less for a heel striker, given the sink.
I don’t agree… again… I’m a forefoot striker…. Absolutely no issues running in 0-10mm drop shoes, I rotate between those drops frequently too. Absolutely no issues with anymore them.
@SagasuRunning sure i believe that, it's not an agree or disagree problem. In your case it works, but its a fact that maaaany mid or forefoot runners prefer lower drops
The reason I’m staying as an agree or disagree problem is your original statement. All the forefoot strikers I know never think about drop…. Though, to your point, mid foot strikers do. Heel strikers seem mixed in my experience. Our mechanics are all different. One size doesn’t fit all…. But high drops also are personal preference. Not a fact.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Nice video as always! I think the ZoomX Deep Dive would be super interesting!
Noted. Thank you! 🙏🏻
Yes! ZoomX Deep Dive would be great!
@fantasmasd ✅
Yes definitely - I love to hear you deep dives. They really help frame my understanding of shoes. Thank you 😊
@dgcadogan Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
Love this shoe talk for us running nerds 🤙🏿🤓
Loving the SL2 as my daily driver. So comfy (even for walking), bouncy and can pick up the pace. Really is bargain of the year. Can't wait to get the EVO SL
Enjoy. This one is nerdy. 🤙🏻
ZoomX story sound very interesting. I am a nerd and enjoy your deep dives. The analytical structured method that you use makes your channel stand out. Thank you for the great content!
Noted! 🙏🏻 Also thank you for the kind words on the content.🤙🏻
I've not watched the video yet, but I'm already sending you a BIG THANK YOU for uploading a new vid !!
I was waiting for this !
Return the thank you for watching (when you do). 🤙🏻
21:25 You had me at polymer chemistry. Have a Happy Thanksgiving, Chris.
Haha. 🤣
Good may have helped you decide to try the Zoom Fly 6. Definitely one I am wanting to put on my feet and indeed have been taking it out for my recent road interval sessions and longish runs and "resting" Vaporflys for just a bit of a weight reduction lift when really want the best I have for me. Seen a few who don't like it but surely that applies to anything. Like says the Superblast 2 is not "loved" by everybody either it seems. Look forward to your thoughts on Dragonfly vs Victory spikes too. Still not sure if "need" the NB5 but having had the previous four maybe I ought to try it...
You are part of the “influencer” on the ZF6… but I’ll also explain the full story in the initial video I do on them.
Did a session in the DF2 this morning. Very good. Very different from the V2… need more time in them.
The Nike Zoom Fly 6 is 🔥. It feels more like a race day shoe to me than a daily trainer. I think you're going to love it.
Actually, I have reached in the Zoom Fly years ago, in the ZF3… though I doubt I’d race in the ZF6 for anything. I’ll tell my story in the review next month.
I’m really hyped for the Vomero 18 actually. Feels like Nike needs a BANGER to renew the hype around their training shoes, and it’s hard to beat super max stack with versatility for $150
The V18 may be that banger... we shall see.
I would be interested in your ZoomX deep dive. Obviously, ZoomX is now a closely related family of foams, evolving over time and use case.
I am glad you decided to cover ZoomFly 6. If it is truly worthy I might pick them up sometime next year if I catch a pair offered at a good discount. Right now, I have more shoes in my rotation than I truly need.
ZoomX video ✅
We ALL have way more shoes in our rotation than we need. 🤣
Excited that you're going to cover the Zoom Fly, I have been anti-Nike training for the last few years but took another chance on the Zoom Fly and really love them
Good to hear. What's your favorite thing about them?
@SagasuRunning if I had to pick one, I'd say the fact that the geometry is very smooth. It's fast, it feels fast and helps you turn over but it never feels out of control or overly bouncy/overly engineered. It just feels like it wants to go at whatever pace you want to push it to. I'd also say that I'm a huge fan of the upper/fit. I'm on the border between a single E and regular width, pretty tall foot with a high arch/instep and it's very accommodating
Noted… I’ll watch for this when I get I them. Thank you.
Re: ZoomX. Bring it on.
I suspect there is chemistry and there is process which are both important. ZoomX is a brand which covers a variety of chemistry generations and processes but all based around a supercritical PEBAX of some sort. An analogy might also be Corning Gorilla Glass ion exchange borosilicate glass which is continually evolving. (Veritasium recently did a really good video on glass that includes this.)
My impression is that even PEBAX the brand from Arkema is a family of related elastomers. PEBA is even more generic. I think that’s about as specific as saying something is “vinyl” or “polyester”.
Ya...it's definitely all of that. What I have dug into seems to be a slippery slope of me needing to learn ALOT about elastomers.
Watching the Veritasium now...
Fun fact...I grew up about 60mi from Corning, NY and a visit to the museum was a nearly a yearly school trip. I knew more about glass as a kid than any kid should...
ZoomX deep dive gets my vote! 🤙🏻
✅
Chris - love the content & been watching consistently since I discovered your channel a handful of months ago. In 2024 I’ve been exclusively training in NB and racing in Nike. I’ve noticed that NB is rarely, if ever mentioned on the channel. Was curious on your thoughts on the brand’s lineup and if you have any plans to incorporate any NB content in 2025.
I've talked a lot about NB actually in previous "shoe talk" videos (look for the thumbnails with some NB shoes in them). The TL:DR is I find NB's current engineering direction dismal...poor fits, bad materials, bad foam and way to wide. Iw as hoping to see some course correction for 2025, but it seems they are continuing with their current direction so I will unlikely be covering them anytime soon.
The Rebel v4 was the shoe that really killed them for me. I ran extensively in the Rebel v1 & v2, the Streakfly then replaced them for me...the Rv4 is not a Rebel...it has none of the qualities of a Rebel...it's a mess.
🤷🏼♂️
Greetings from a Nike fanboy in Bavaria to a Nike fanboy in Taiwan. I'll for sure buy and run in a Vomero 18 and a Peg Premium.
Fanboys unite! 🇩🇪 🇹🇼
ZoomX foam story: talk about history of running shoe midsoles. Rubber, EVA, and everything that followed. Where the Arkema corporation came in with the PEBAX material etc. etc. Looking forward to that video!
It might not be THAT inclusive and broad… but some good topics there… ✅
Zoom Fly 6 is honestly really good, for me anyways. Versatile, comfortable (once I went a half size up anyways).
Noted... I will see.
I would think the deep dive into ZoomX would be super interesting! Don't run in Nike's but I have notice the tendency of brands to call a foam a name and its clearly different between shoes with the same foam name and little or no explanation (Fresh Foam, Fuel Cell mostly bit also Pumas switch in names from Nitro Elite in MagMax which showed in some early versions to Nitro but not the same as the old Nitro, its actually last Gen Nitro Elite rebranded to avoid confusion with new Nitro Elite). Actually the Puma foam story is super interesting, any chance in a video on that?
Noted ✅
All brands are doing this with their foams. A certain product name foam means a "feel' more than anything to them. Though, I have to say Puma's whole foam story in 2024 was VERY confusing...
Definitely want to know more about ZoomX
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We will not be seeing a Pegasus 42 until ‘26, Nike has been working towards two year update cycles with their shoes as of late. I would love to hear your thoughts on two vs one year life cycles from a product designers perspective!
I would not count on past being prologue at Nike with recent sweeping changes at the top & within running. Also, if the U.S. hits China w/tariffs as its saying it will, the Nike Peg is made in Vietnam and may gain a significant price point advantage in it's class versus all the models made in China that are suddenly approaching $200 while the Peg 42 may still be able to hit the U.S. at $160. All we really know it what Nike's done in the past hasn't worked too well and I don't expect Nike to continue those patterns.
I'll believe this when I see it in regards to the Peg. However, if this is the case I'm all for it. I think two year dev cycles suit product releases in running well. The even/odd year of Peg updates with the upper only change on even years is fine but pointless ultimately.
From a product design perspective it allows the team more time to focus on getting the details right. The issue though is it can also feel like they are moving too slow and can't react to industry shifts. So it can be frustrating.
Nike has gotten the VF and AF alternating in years now. 2025 is a Vomero year which opens the door for 2026 to be the Peg year. So we will see. I'm cool either way.
Good points here actually. 👍🏻
Appreciate the insight! Nike is definitely putting energy behind the Vomero next year. That was the shoe they were showing off at TRE, while also showing Vomero Plus and teasing Vomero Premium to close out the year. It will be interesting to see if the two year cycle sticks or not, especially if Nike wants to continue to keep up with or pass the competition…
Agree. That will be interesting. A mass market shoe like the Peg though does have a logic to be yearly, if anything from a design language refresh/style for seasonal color trends , while the Plus and Premium could be 2 year cycles. That would make sense to me.
We shall see. I’m very curious.
VOM 18 - I am pretty sure there's less Zoom X, they said at the Running Event that it wraps up the heel, so it's just lateral foam that tricks the eye
There are exploded views out there and at TRE they had the parts on display so there is video showing how the midsole fits together. The ZoomX part is basically the core of the shoe. Nearly the entire "ZoomX" sideall you see in profile has ZoomX behind it down the center of the foot. The cutout in the heel of the ReactX part seems to expose the ZoomX part. In the forefoot it seems like a 60/40 mix of ZoomX/ReactX...
I didn't expect that mix...but it is there.
I've come to the conclusion that both my pairs of NB V3 are now collapsing in on the medial side and are due for retirement (600 and 700km). So I'm eagerly awaiting the NB V5 release to eat up daily KMs. I have a pair of Invincible V3's coming, and my V2's still have some life left in them at 800km. Which I plan to utilize for my 2 dedicated hill sessions per week till Boston.
Really hoping to tighten up my rotation to the NB V5, Invincible VX, Tempo Next%, Superblast V2 and AlphaFly VX (depending on racing or targeted workouts) leading into Boston.
But Adidas might throw a wrench into that...they really seem to be working on the heel lock issue. Boston 13 leaks has me excited.
Everything Nike has done this year makes me firmly believe that the Tempo Next% V2 is coming. They have released all the new foams and tech that they could easily use to leverage a true upgraded version of the Tempo Next% (ZoomX variant frontal, ReactX rear, half Peg Premium air unit for the entire mid/forefoot). Nike needs a true training companion to the Alphafly, the Zoomfly is NOT it. I still have over 1,000km worth of workout training in my 2 newer pairs of Tempos, so I can wait and hope.
I actually think the ZF6 is the intended trainer to the AF3…. But I also think there may be a “plus” tier to the Zoom Fly, which would be an “Air Zoom” option. I talked about think in my Nike Structure video. It would make sense and lean into “air” more, a story Nike is running with now.
The B13 looks just like the B12, though I believe it’s full LSP now. Honestly, they doesn’t excite me much. The PX3S though looks like Adidas making a Tempo Next% though…
@@SagasuRunning The Boston13 pics I have seen show an Adi EVO SL heel collar, not the traditional side strips with nothing in the spine of the heel. The crux of the heel lift issues. Now these pics could be BS, but I'm hoping they aren't.
@timtrenholm3698 They are real. I wasn’t looking at the upper though. Just the midsole and geometry. Makes sense you are focused on the heel.
Hi Chris!
My SL2s are nearing end of life, I run 5-10k races, but training for a HM.
Current rotation:
Adidas SNR > SL2 > TS10
Struggling to decide on a SL2 replacement: Peg plus? NB5? Hang on for the Evo SL?
What would you personally go for (if you were me)?
Much love! 🫶
I think you hang on for the Evo SL as you seem invested in Addias. Otherwise the NB5 will be a fun alternative to the SL2.
Personally I’d go Peg41/Prg Plus/VF3 right now… but that’s me.
@ thanks Chris! I’m intrigued to try the Nikes out to be fair!
They are great… 💪🏻
@@SagasuRunning I really ended up in the adidas’ because their discounts here in the UK🇬🇧 are crazy good!
How many km/miles did you manage to get out of the SL2? Was the durability up to par?
I'm interested to see what foam replaces ZoomX, eventually.
You and me both...
I already thought you will "change" your opinion about the ZoomFly 6, it seems to be a really big surprise especially compared to the previous ZF6.
Since the Victory 2 is not really going on sale (I only want the electric color ... :( ) I will go for the new streakfly... that should be a really good track shoe.
Edid: ZoomX deepdive suuuure
The ZF6 story has a twist in it...I'll explain next month.
Nike spikes never go on sale, at least the super spikes. I'm dying for the SF2...it's the track to road shoe I need for what I'm doing. I absolutely cannot wait for it.
✅ on the ZoomX video.
@SagasuRunning the other colors are on sale here in Germany, 160bucks, the dragonfly2 down to 130-150, but Iam a very aesthetic person, I only want the electric colorway and that stays at 200+ bucks at hour size 😤
So the SF2 it will be, should be the perfect track trainer.
And its so ugly that its already pretty again ❤️
Interesting. I’ve never seen Nike’s super spikes on sale. The electric color way is great but I actually like my bright spruce DF2s better. I like white shoes.
The SF2 will certainly be a track to road monster. I cannot wait. I’ve heard there will be a spiked version too… though I assume that will only be for Nike pros.
Talking about ZoomX: is there any way - something like a home remedy - to protect the heel section of the Alphafly 3 a little bit?
I'll assume you are worried about abrasion and/or the rubber pads. Honestly, there isn't much you can do. Shoe Goo around the heel pads is your best bet...
Any thoughts on the update to the Brooks Hyperion line? The updates were shown on the Running Warehouse channel. Personally, I’m glad they’re updating the foam, but overall I am disappointed.
I’d enjoy a ZoomX video.
I'm actually excitied about the Hyperion Elite 4 PB, not so much the Hyperion Elite 5. On the fence about the Hyperion 3, but since I missed the 2 I may cover it anyway. I had zero interest in the Hyperion Max 2 last year and have less than zero interest in the Hyperion Max 3 this year.
I think I will be covering a handful of Brooks shoes in 2025...
ZoomX video ✅
@@SagasuRunningthe things that really disappoints me is the increase in stack height.
I’m not sure who the Hyperion Max 2 was made for. Personally, I like it a lot because it’s a great occasional “speed” shoe for a heavy person like me, but I doubt people my size are their target audience.
@rumblerumble2276 I actually think larger runners ARE a big chunk of what Brooks builds product for. Brooks uses the “everyday runner” or “average runner” phrase a lot and they know their customer.
you use the elite dragonfly or just dragonfly?
Standard Dragonfly 2.
I have enough of max stack shoes , need a pair with low or normal stack
Peg 41... Peg Plus... two of the best you can find.
Vomero was the only Nike shoe that worked for me. Good balance of firmness and softness and just the right amount of midsole stack. Unfortunately, that was true until version 18 and I have no idea what Nike is doing with their lineups.
On the other hand, I knew exactly what they have been doing with their pegasus series and so called ''premium'' version confirms it. They are going all in looks than performance similar to early reviews that suggest its more of an overpriced lifestyle shoe than an actual running shoe.
To your second point...I have to disagree. As someone who now has over 600k on the 41s and close to 200k on the Plus...your point couldn't be further off.
Too each their own I guess.
@@SagasuRunning And how many miles do you have on Pegasus premium? Because my point was not strictly peg 41 and plus but the whole lineup.
The majority of the reviewers and testers emphasize pegasus premium being a lifestyle shoe rather than a performance shoe. Not to mention, QC issues have gotten worse in the last two to three years many people reporting various problems and returning them. Where I live Nike had to stop shipping products because they couldn't handle the refund/return process. I can't order Nike products since early september.
I read at least a dozen instances where testers had serious issues with full length air unit they couldnt even walk in the shoe let alone run. One of the reviewers also said that the upper quality is so bad that reminds him of the peg 32 from 2015. Does that sound like a 200$ shoe to you?
I haven't had major issues with my streakfly and vomero in the past but that doesn't mean other people not having issues with products of this particular brand. If you look you will also see.
I don’t have a pair of Premiums…. But when I do feel free to ask again. I’ll make my opinion clear on them too.
In one of the last video’s you mentioned a coming super trainer from asics, a kind of plated superblast. But i can’t find the name anymore.
Did I? I've heard of a plated Novablast coming...but didn't think I mentioned it in a video, though it is in the comments. Otherwise the new Asics shoes I've been talking about are super shoes, something (we think) like the Evo 1 from Adidas. That is in my "Elite" video (you can see it in the thumbnail) and a few others.
Thnx. I must have heard wrong then. If it helps, listened to the last few videos again and again 😅. Love the channel. Thank you for answering and the hard work.
No worries. There is definitely a “super trainer” type shoe coming from Asics (I’ve heard the plated Novablast is called the “Sonicblast”?) but it’s not the type of thing I talk about here generally. I know that type of shoe will make many happy though. Given how good the NB5 is…I may even try it!
Thank you for the kind words on the content and support. 🙏🏻 🤙🏻
Would love an invincible 4 that was more like the 1 and 2.
It is and it isn't... You'll see what I mean when you see it.
To be honest, I was a bit shocked and disappointed when you first time said you didn’t want to cover the ZF6. And specifically the fact that you didn’t see the point because of SR02 and that that was a “every day shoe foam”. From what I can see now, there is a lot of hype around the ZF6, and how mega comfortable and soft it is to run in, and how great it is for long runs with tempo intervals. I’m not saying all this to be negative and complaining, but saying so to be transparent and let you know of a decrease in my feeling of “shoe-talk integrity”, if you could call it that. With this is mind, it would for me be very very positive to hear you talk even more nerdy and maybe even “chemistry related” about foams. Especially something like versions of ZoomX would be mega appreciated! Thanks for the content again, and hope you receive the constructive feedback well 🙏 All the best 🤙👟
I know why the ZF6 exists and it fits in a place for the lineup very well. It does great some complexities though, which is one of the things I plan to cover. That being said I will ALWAYS train in the shoe i intend to race in. Price of running shoes is not a concern for me (coming from cycling). So buying multiple super shoes with limited durability for a build is my preference. So I personally don't need a shoe like the ZF6...but I can cover it from a lineup POV and I do want to run in it so I can recommend it where appropriate. I'll talk more about this in my review.
I never said i didn't see the point of SR-02 foam. I was surprised they made that choice on the ZF6 over Cushlon 2.0 though. Durability is similar between the two as is feel...cost though must differ greatly. I never expected the ZF6 to get the ZoomX/ReactX combo though...that makes more sense in the Vomero.
That being said...one of the focuses for the channel in 2025 is going to be a "do more with less" tone as far as rotations go... so something like the ZF6 fits into that nicely for many runners.
I greatly appreciate the feedback though. Thank you. 🙏🏻
@ Thank you for your clarification. It makes more sense now. For me it just sounds like a lot of people really enjoy the ZF6 and especially its comfort and versatility, and I wasn’t exspecting that to be honest form a sandwich carbon plated shoe (though it is a soft carbon plate apparently).
But anywho, it sounds great with your 2025 focus on “bang for the buck”, and helping people to make better choices in their own running journey. I’m looking forward to see this in the future. Just like hopefully a lot of good Nike content 🙏👟
Really glad you appreciate the feedback, and took it so nicely. I really appreciate your content, so I’m just glad my opinion is valued in some way. Wish you all the best! 🙌
One of the things I’m most curious about in the ZF6 is just how flexible the plate is. Nike, unlike most other brands, designs in flex to their plates as part of the propulsion of the shoe. The ZF series has always been too rigid due to the previous foams… so it’s something you never felt, like in a VF. So I’m curious to experience this one.
I see the dialog in these comments as a conversation. I want the feedback, especially from people like you that are active and have been around for a while and have watched a lot of my content. I appreciate it deeply! 🤙🏻
@ Nice to hear your feedback on the plate. My coming from the motorsporting world, carbon fiber is a big deal, used in many applications. So you telling them used differently in shoes, automatically spark my curiosity for a “deep dive” into the tech around these shoes 👟🙌 Thanks again for feedback!
I’m very appreciative for you recognizing me, and knowing I’ve been around for some time now. You are the most nerdy shoe-tuber I follow, and I likewise appreciate it very much. Thank you Sagasu 🙏🏁 Have a nice day!
@Skjoldborg8 I come from racing snowboards/skateboards AND bikes….carbon fiber all over all of those. I’m very well aware of the flex characteristics you can build with the material for a lever like a CF plate in a shoe. It’s a fascinating material.
I’m also a F1 and MotoGP fan… so seeing what CF is in those spaces is also fascinating.
When is the streakfly 2 coming out???
No clue...other than 2025 is very likely. When I know, you'll know. Trust me. It is now my most anticipated shoe of 2025.
+1 foam talk!
✅
Zoom X deep dive ❤
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Possible ZoomX class action suit?
Reasonable consumers are being misled by Nike that the ZoomX in its training shoes are the same as in its super shoes?
No…. Nike (and all brands) have been clear that their super foams are “a feel” and not a chemistry. Nike, Adidas, Asics… they all have done this. It’s partly why brands don’t actually wave a huge flag on chemistry alone. Instead they talk about ride, reliance, feel… that they can achieve any number of ways…
@@SagasuRunning Found this old article on Nike’s website around the time of the original Pegasus turbo: “The Nike ZoomX midsole delivers 85% energy return, the greatest of any Nike foam, to give you a propulsive feeling as you move forward.”
What if the ZoomX in its current trainers doesn’t deliver the same 85% energy return because of its different chemistry?
@steevie76 I actually believe it’s likely more. Manufacture efficiencies and understanding of the materials is an improvement. I remember how OG ZoomX felt vs our currently primary variations (in the VF/AF/DF) or the rubberized one (Plus) and both current versions are better…by a lot.
I have the dragonfly 1, 2, and victory 2
I didn't run in the DF1...but what do you feel are the differences, on foot and on track, between the DF1 & DF2?
Why not Training Peaks to get all your training data?
Peaks may be the only platform with a WORST UI and architecture. I lived in Peaks for 10+ years as a cyclist... I have no desire to go back, ever... even if I work with a coach someday.
However, Peaks is a good tool if that is what you need. It's not what I need.
@@SagasuRunningthere are some alternatives around. Xhale etc. Do you have any experience with those? They all look kind of the same to me?
Nope. Peaks is the dominate one in the space due and the one the majority of coaches want to use. I did used to do my indoor cycling training in Trainer Road, which I liked the UI of… but I know Peaks owns them now and not sure what has changed in the platform.
Be as persisent in life as Strava is in trying convert you into a paid sub user
They won. I caved today as I need to see some of my PRs and splits… 🤷🏼♂️ AI still off… but now the resub CTAs are going too. Win some and loose some.
@@SagasuRunning does Garmin (assuming you use a Garmin?) not offer the same data? Starva sub is more info than I need but I find lots of useful info in Garmin stats. I haven't done a comparison of data of course, between Strava sub and Garmin
I’m not a Garmin user. I’m an Apple Watch user. I have all the same data in Apple Workouts…. I’m just used to how Strava presents it to me in the app…. It’s been 10 years of seeing it like that and I’m very used to it.
@@SagasuRunning understood ☺
Interesting position regarding comparison of shoes which I honestly don't see too often, but you keep stressing it in a lot of your videos. And which in my opinion is odd - as I firmly believe that year is only a number on paper. If a product is good, and especially if it's still available, then it's just good, year doesn't make it less worthy. If it's bad, then the fact that it's from newer generation doesn't save it. It's not an advantage, because shoes are shoes, not the abstract entities made to be classified and categorized or be thrown out of categorization based on a formal criterion.
Imagine someone approaches you and says that a shoe you like a lot is actually a "two generations old" shoe. Would you still use it or ditch it based on the "year" column in a spreadsheet?
There are good examples of cult following for models like Saucony Endorphin Speed v1/v2, which were considered instant classics by many within the community thanks to their exceptional performance and opted for even after next versions were out. Or Nike fans who keep comparing everything to Alphafly 1 which they actually still use in their training/racing routines. In this light, running as a field of interest and activity as well running shoes is something, dare I say, animated and practically inspired.
Your approach to running shoes appears to be more theoretical (or classificational) rather than practical, which of course you are totally entitled to, and it's just something I found myself willing to point out, since, ultimately I appreciate your thoughtful attitude even though I may not fully agree with some points in it.
Well... I stress it because it's important on a channel like what I'm doing. I'm trying to cover whats current. That means new. So my focus is always going to be prioritizing the new and the current generation of product. I will cover older shoes, or revisit ones from the past. I agree that just because something is "old" (relative) doesn't make it bad. It's more my editorial decision on the channel as a whole. So "old" shoes will get a different format and I make a point not to compare then directly to the new, other than some loose points here and there.
More importantly though it the product development cycle. This is the main distinction for me. A shoe 1+ generations behind the current has (at least) 1 less generation of development, testing, learning, materials, etc in it's development. Which puts it at a disadvantage to the current generation in a product sense. Yes, product teams can make wrong turns and regress the product, even with those learnings...but that is a different problem of their own creation.
This is my product design background and the editorial decision I made about the channel when I started it.
To you question on the spreadsheet of shoes with a date column. Absolutely I would sort it by the data column before I did anything else with it...
@@SagasuRunningthere's a logic and reason behind your point. However, some implications that go along with your point are questionable. In particular, you envision shoe development as a gradual process of improving the shoe, without considering commercial and accommodation bias, as well as other factors which occasionally may not just lead to improving the shoe (as the backing intent behind its development), but may totally shift it across the lineup by recalibrating its purpose. In that sense, development is inherently not linear, but arbitrary in many ways and hence cannot be seen as a process primarily lead by learning and improving (at least from original shoe purpose standpoint), and thus the next versions are not supposed to be taken for granted as better products in all senses, as "better" can relate to better performance in one case and better commercial success in the other, or any other dimension for that matter.
And that is perfectly reflected in people's feedback. These days, older generations are often not as accommodating (i.e. stable, safe or universal), but may easily be more performant, have the edge in particular areas. That is simply because we have reached the plateau where technologies are advanced enough and further development may sometimes not be a development as such, but merely a shuffle of those existing technologies.
From a product design standpoint point and how the team sees it… trust me, marketing or bottom line considerations factor in at the management level… but at the team level they are focused on improvement the product cycle after cycle. In my nearly 30 year career never once was I part of a product team or a lead on a time and though “let’s make this next generation worst than the last.” Sometimes you do go down wrong development paths and sometimes external factors limit resources or budgets so you can’t do all that you had wanted… but you always do something to improve.
I don’t know your professional background, maybe it’s in product management of design… but I’m speaking from experience directly.
Now to your point of older products being preferred… this is a sign that the team went down a non fruitful path or balanced the product equation differently than the needs of some users.
Specific to running, super shoes are an interesting engineering challenge. The needs of a global elite runner and a 4 hour marathoner are vastly different and it’s a hard line to balance. The VF2 to VF3 story, which I’ve covered in depth on this channel, is a fascinating case study.
As I said, I cover older products on occasions to discuss their importance in the history or larger scope of running…. But I remain squarely focused on what’s next and that is the editorial priority on this channel.
@@SagasuRunning Beyond discussion is the manufacturer's intent of making a better product. Let me explain why I believe you still miss the point by concrete examples so we are not lost in terminology. NB Rebel v2 and v4 are already completely different models: v2 was much lower in stack, much more dynamic. The current v4 is not "better" - unless better means approachable - it's just different shoe, even though there are some objective factors like upper quality or stability where it has the edge. Shoes like Novablast v1 and Endorphin Speed v1-2 were very niche, aggressive and unstable. Novablast v1 had pretty bad upper and did require strong leg muscles. Are they as approachable as their modern revisions? By no means. But are the newer versions "better"? Well, let's see. Shoes must sell - and be as approachable as possible. If you release a shoe, even a good one, which has limited use or have specific requirements, it will not sell. If you go as far as to claim that "approachable" equals "better", then, well, most trending shoes of late years are definitely better. I tend to disagree with this flat scale, though.
If a shoe is not safe enough, not comfortable enough, not versatile enough, big chances it's pushed by the market. Or, the other way around: popular shoe may gain even more commercial success if it acquires those qualities. However, lack of any of those doesn't necessarily mean the shoe is "worse" or "better". Magic Speed 3 is by no means worse than the v4, they are simply different. And Endorphin Elite v1 may turn out to be more efficient than the upcoming ultra soft v2, but it's regarded as demanding and harsh and this undoubtedly affects commercial result.
Besides that, ultimately, I believe you misuse term "generation" by equalizing that term to the calendar year. What you refer to as generation is simply model version, and, if opted, that terminology does not lead to misconception. All the discussed shoes belong to the same generation of tech, more or less, and which renders them 100% comparable. Technological, constructional or performance gaps in most of these shoes (basically, 2-3, maybe up to 4 years) is not enough to claim that they belong to different generations. Some examples apply, without doubt. But shoes like Novablast v3, v4 and v5 as models of one generation are 100% comparable. If generation is otherwise perceived simply as a version number detached from any real-life criteria, then we have that artificial demarcation.
Said that, I do still like your channel a lot and as I appreciate any thoughtful attitude.
@hexfire You made my point for me. I agree with your take on the Rebel v2 and v4. The v4 is a mess of a shoe and a complete insult to the Rebel name (which I have loved in the past). The NB team set out to make a “better” Rebel in the v4. They talked endlessly about it last year around release. They were very proud of the shoe and to them it was the “best Rebel yet”. While the shoe has been well received it’s not REALLY been received as a Rebel. It is something else all together.
So the team clearly set out to make a better Rebel… but on my count they failed. They went down a wrong development path. It happens.
The term “generation” is what product teams often use internally. Sometimes “cycle” or “season” (for shoes) is used. All are interchangeable. It signifies a distinct development cycle, starting with the previous model/generation and ending with the new. It’s a VERY clear start and stop line for the team. However, it isn’t always based on a year. Sometimes these generations or cycles can span 14 months or more. Sometimes these generations can span multiple years with smaller generations in there to get to a goal.
This is how I use the term. This is my experience working in product design.
Model years and generations are consumer facing and development facing respectively. So I draw a line. As I’ve said… I’m interested in what’s new and what’s next. Only if something is REALLY good or really personally important to me will I hold onto it. Otherwise I’m looking ahead with an eye to the past to tell the stories about how we got where we are today.
Is it artificial? Sure, but who cares. That’s semantics.
The Peg Premium also has a combination of ZoomX and ReactX. Could we expect the standard Peg to eventually incorporate a similar combination of foams or would that be cost-prohibitive? I am quite curious about ZoomX as I've never ran on it, but I'd rather buy a Peg than a Vomero.😄The VF3 is a bit expensive and narrower than my AP3 around the midfoot area. Should the Peg Plus and the Evo SL both release here I'll be in quite the pickle, but I'm not holding my breath.😅
I doubt we will ever see ZoomX in. Standard Peg. Never say never though.
The combo of foams in the Peg Premium are exciting. I’m so very curious.
The Peg Plus vs Evo SL is going to be a big one for me whenever I can get a Evo SL…
@@SagasuRunning if they put in ZoomX in a Peg doesn't it then become a Vomero and both those lines are going forwards. As you mentioned though there are seemingly different types of "real" ZoomX bit like the AP3 and AP4 Lightstrike Pro. Wonder what the actual differences in manufacturing costs are...
@TimGrose ya… there must be a difference in cost but that is likely something we will never know.
about the ZoomX deep dive .... ZoomFly 5 - Pegasus Turbo Next Nature - Alphafly 1 Next Nature -> ZoomX = ShitX ... the ZoomFly 5 was the only Nike shoe ever that I sent back after only one run in them. Instant hate!
ZF5 was terrible. Also returned a pair. Have the ZF6 and its great, lovely return to form for Nike
Ya...the recycled ZoomX was not great. I have the AFNN and the TNN... both were not great. The ZF5 was a mess for SO many other reasons as well, but the recycled ZoomX core didn't help at all.
Definitely a massive change. Good to hear.
@@SagasuRunning I think I saw on the Nike site that the ZF6 is also recycled Zoom X. I assume a type o as all receivers have been rejoicing at the chance to non recycled.
@cpandsooz It’s not recycled ZoomX…
Getting pressured into resubscribing to Strava is wild, and imo should be enough reason to not do it
It is par for the course though with subscription based products. I've never experienced Strava's though... it is very heavy handed.
Almost half the video on Nike! As a running shoe focused video, i continue to be surprised that you devote so much time to a product line that by all indications continues to fall behind others shoe companies, losing market share and share of mind with the general running population.
As someone for whom the Nike last doesn't work, and who likes your general insights, I find myself fast forwarding through the Nike info to get to what I'm really interested in....your insights into other shoes. Maybe you should split your channel into Nike focused and all other focused, maybe you'd find a broader audience?
Again, love your insights, just fatigued by so much NIKE.
I'm a Nike runner. I've never hidden that. 60%+ of my running is in Nike product. 100% of my racing has bene in Nike product. If I didn't have this channel I'd likely be nearly 100% Nike all together.
My focus on this channel has always been Nike first...then Adidas and/or Asics (they switch depending on who is more interesting in the moment) and then everyone else.
I will be covering plenty of non Nike in 2025. Editorially I try to cover the all of running but it's still my POV on running. I'm trying to be broad, but not all inclusive. I'm ONLY going to cover what I'm interested in. If I don't want to run in it, I'm not going to cover it, even if I don't have to buy it...
@@SagasuRunning That's fair, and you have been clear on this. just whining ;-)
Do you ever wonder if your Nike bias keeps you from shoes that you might love?
As I said, I love the way you approach reviews and your consistency in the way you approach your reviews gives me a place to start on the shoes you compare Nike to that does narrow down my personal search, which is helpful.
Thanks for the channel
@lenjanssen9600 No… because anytime I go away from Nike, like I did for the first 6 months of 2024… I always come back. Nike fits and foams just work for me, end of story. I now try EVERYTHING I’m interested in in the industry. Even things I wouldn’t be interested in if I didn’t have the channel…. Because I want to talk about them. I’ve been surprised a few times already (ES4 and EP4 come to mind).
Finding a reviewer you like but disagree with on most counts is useful. I definitely used to have that and it would help me rule out shoes immediately or understand deeper why something didn’t (or wouldn’t) work for me. In some ways I would say it is more valuable.
Nike's problem is always the same. Drop too high. Voterò again 10mm drop like most of other models
As a forefoot striker I have zero issue with high drop. Plus with modern compressive foams, drop is a reference number at best…. 10mm with ZoomX is actually closers to 6mm, maybe less for a heel striker, given the sink.
@SagasuRunning if you heel strike sure it compresses, but if youre a nid or forefoot striker, it makes running veru clumsy
I don’t agree… again… I’m a forefoot striker…. Absolutely no issues running in 0-10mm drop shoes, I rotate between those drops frequently too. Absolutely no issues with anymore them.
@SagasuRunning sure i believe that, it's not an agree or disagree problem. In your case it works, but its a fact that maaaany mid or forefoot runners prefer lower drops
The reason I’m staying as an agree or disagree problem is your original statement. All the forefoot strikers I know never think about drop…. Though, to your point, mid foot strikers do. Heel strikers seem mixed in my experience.
Our mechanics are all different. One size doesn’t fit all…. But high drops also are personal preference. Not a fact.