@PaMuShin oh ok - this was filmed a while ago so I wasn't sure. Yeah, man you can get stabbed innumerable different ways. The "flowery" way I showed still works, just showing its not always the case
I'm not the only one who reacts this way when catching something! My natural reaction is to swat it away when something is thrown at me. It's like my brain goes "They didn't want it otherwise they wouldn't have thrown it. Then I don't want it either. Slap!"
Just attended a seminar with Ryan Hoover on knife defense and he said something brilliant that sums up what y'all were talking about. You are not fighting a knife, you a fighting a person holding a knife. You can't forget there is another person attached to the weapon. Just because you got "control" over the arm doesn't mean the fight is over. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that hitting people in the face tends to make them let go of things so if you get the arm and forget they have another arm they can beat you with. Also, people have a hard time remembering to shoot or stab you if you suddenly toss their legs in the air causing them to land head first. Enjoyed this conversation.
"they have another arm they can beat you with" - Yeah but if you get the knife you could stab him with it. Seriously people, I understand that every idiot has an opinion but the whole point is either kill the dude who is attacking you or run away. Anything between those two is basically a given (besides getting wounded or dying of course).
If I would trust anyone with gun stuff in martial arts; it would be Icy Mike. Especially since he is still humble and kinda scared about the whole thing.
And he's not wrong. I have practiced disarms, and what you see when they go "live" is exactly what they look like. Disarms are a huge fight for the gun, or they'll fail every time. If you are doing a disarm, you are fighting for your life. It should be treated as such.
@@jatbatman The only weapon that I feel somewhat comfortable fighting control for is blunt weapons; since you do not die instantly when you lose control. ^^ Blades and guns though... Constant uphill battle on slippery ice so too say.
@@Stahlvanten I don't disagree, but there's safe options for training and practice. If you ever need the skill, it's good to know. Also if you ever actually need the skill, your life is already in the balance. I'm not saying to ever feel comfortable with it. In fact the second someone pulls ANY kind of weapon, you should be uncomfortable. If you're not, you have no natural survival instinct.
@@jatbatman Like you said, I also dont disagree with what you said/wrote. But from experience; I have wrestled batons and "cudgles" (English is not my first language so I am alittle unsure if its the right word) from people in fights. Knives I backed away from always to get at them at other situations/scenarios. And yes; me and my childhood friends was among some truly scary and stupid people (as in no impulse control) and we were stupid to be around that kind of people. But we thought we had good reasons. Guns doesnt really exist where I live at; unless your into heroin dealing or the coke business.
@@jatbatman Must mention though as soon as hammers and shit is involved that is "blunt" but has more of a piercing impact... Thats really scary. Bats and foldable batons is bad, but guns and edges are horrifying.
To my untrained eye, the main problem with these "take the gun techniques" is, that the guy with the gun can just keep his distance! One step back, and you are screwed.
Well, he has the gun pointed at you to persuade you to do something, right. And it's probably something that requires him to be close to you. Otherwise why not call you while has you in the sights of sniper rifle. Muggers don't stand 30 feet away from you and tell you to throw your wallet. This is just one of those things you do because, thinking that you can't defeat him while he's holding the gun, you've tried everything else, such as give him what your wallet, etc.., and he's still pointing the gun.
12:44 Something about this direct comparison of demonstration versus reality was really funny but also incredibly morbid. Just seeing how fast that stab came out and retracted, all before he could even react, is terrifying.
If someone pulls a knife on you, you gotta make peace with the fact you are going to get carved up and the least worst place for that to happen is the back of your arms, so I would try to make my torso as small a target as possible and shield it with my arms.
@@LicoriceLain I've seen that technique somewhere. Like literally just wrap your arms around your stomach, take the first few stabs or slices, then move in.
I appreciate your guys' humor around this. "Bullet gun," "bullets go far" both great uses of language. Way to own, as you said, not being an expert. All good stuff, guys.
We had gun disarms in our combatives curriculum in the military, but if you look into police reports and such stuff you'll quickly see that most of these just never work. Most people who tried to disarm their opponents are either injured or killed. The problem with disarms is that there are too many variables and taking away an object from a resisting opponent is way harder than these training sequences make it look. Most of these disarms - of course - work perfectly fine in a controlled environment with a cooperative training partner.
ok, well, what would you suggest? "always carry a gun" isn't the answer either. I mean, HE HAS HIS GUN ALREADY OUT AND COVERING YOU, so if you're so quick that you can draw a firearm and fire before he fires, couldn't you have used that speed to do a disarm?
one quick thing I didn’t see mentioned is: guns are LOUD. If you grapple someone with a gun they can panic and let out a couple shots, even if they miss the sound can still deafen/ concuss you enough to lose track of the situation
Unless he has been going to clubs without hearing protection for too many years so he is half deaf anyway. Or unless you already ARE using hearing protection because you work as security in a club.
My instructor taught special forces, and when i asked him what he thought avout disarms he said "practice them in case you have no other choice, but have in mind you will most likely get shot... Just make sure its not somewhere that will kill you for sure
Have in mind, its not like he was the sole instructor, special forces here take courses in different msrtial arts to conplement their training, i didnt train like special forces, i just trained with a guy who had to train them, and they have to present the curriculum, and those who know tell.him, whatbif the curriculum is at an acceptable level for them, most of the dtuff isndiscarded for being overcomplicated
Gun disarms happen more often than people think. They just aren’t the flashy martial arts disarms that people associate with gun disarms. They are much more raw looking. More of a struggle
Hey icy mike i think it'll be a really cool training exercise to use a paint ball pistol to demonstrate how chaotic a live, full resistance situation can be. :) love your stuff
@@ArmchairViolence I fully agree it'd hurt more than a chalk dart, but at the same time i think that's kind of the point. Each member of the exercise is really invested in not getting shot, and i think that adds a ton of realism while, at the same time, keeping it very safe. would like to know what you think of this perspective :)
@@GIFT1FROM1THE1GODZ It's basically the difference between light sparring and hard sparring. But what is the point of doing hard sparring? It's not about fear of getting hit. Most people are already so afraid to lose that their pride is more than enough incentive. The point is that the pain you feel is realistic to how the actual fight would go down. It risks more damage, but is more realistic. If you use a paintball gun it will do damage, but it's still not at all realistic. It doesn't imitate an actual gunshot, but can still do damage. It's all the pain with none of the gain. I think the caulk nerf dart is better because it's completely safe and the idea of competition is still enough for people to take it seriously. The only problem I forsee is that nerf guns are so flimsy that fighting over it might break it lol Plus, they're not quite shaped like an actual gun.
We were literally discussing gun disarms last night in class. Our Black Belts have to come up with self defenses for their next test. I stopped my part of the class to go to the other side of the mat just to talk about how everything they were doing was unrealistic and would get them shot! Nicely done!
@@enoughofyourkoicarp or, they decided it would be better to pursue different self defense aspects. And the real answer is it started as ITF TKD, morphed to become more than that, and incorporates a lot of BJJ principles into it, as that's the other main focus of the school.
@@enoughofyourkoicarp - Successful self defense isn't successful defense of personal property; lots of people have died for wallets that they ended up having no use for... and lost anyway. If your money matters that much, and you think your technique's that good, you can always roll the dice, but snake eyes are still a bitch.
@@enoughofyourkoicarp - So the joke was that they should have pretended to disarm someone who had a real gun instead of surrendering their wallets? You're right - that is pretty funny.
Gun disarms are the most "IF/MAYBE" things in self defence. So many factors to count in: size, distance, psychological state of the attacker, your reaction speed. It's a gun, it's loud, it's scary, it can discharge really fast and you can't forget that. Also there is a person who is holding that gun, so not only you have to try to move away /move his hand away/ but you have to make sure the the asailant will not just take a freaking step back and shoot you. I remember we tried with a real thing, and half of the moves became unusable just by the fact that the trigger gets pulled faster than you can even move away from the line of fire/move the hand away.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903given you cannot grab or touch anything outside whats already in the grip of the assailant, I would disagree with you. One tiny slice on the wrong part of your body and you are dead, you'll just be alive long enough for you to process that you're bleeding out and you cant stop it unless you EDC a tourquinet (sometimes not even) Knives are fucked and you will suffer more of its damage due to its nature as a weapon. A gun is pretty manageable in comparison, wont even make as big a wound as a knife can and if ur shot somewhere inconsequential, your survival rate aint half bad. If I gouge that same limb with a knife I feel like you're going to ha e bigger risks of something important being sliced.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 "Guns very much cause heavier wounds." Sure, but the point is, a cut on your inside wrist and you're just as dead. Saw a video where a Kung Fu guy was explaining the idea about striking the forearm area (like in The Equalizer), and you're not doing that to get leverage; apparently that's a pressure point, and if someone grips you right there, it makes it harder to keep your fist closed. A lot of people seem to think you're doing that to move the forearm and get leverage, that's not what you're doing.
Okay, so the moral of the story is? Learn how to fight? At least a bit diffrent to " If he has a knife you are dead, so you're stupid if you train how to deal with it!"
Thank you for saying this, so many people misunderstand what a disarm actually looks like. They can be done but they are literally a huge fight for the weapon. Disarms are violent, they have to be in order to actually be effective. The only time disarms aren't a risk is if you can get ahead of their draw. That gives you a chance to actually keep the gun from pointing at you. I once disarmed my brother with a BB gun when he was on leave from the army, and it was so aggressive he had to remove three bbs from his abdomen. There was a fourth bb in the dirt between our first point of contact. That's what disarms look like. They're not clean, and anyone that sells you on them being is selling you bullshit.
@@neutrino78x reread what I actually said! I said nothing about not trying. I said in order to be effective they have to be violent. I did state they are not clean, but the second you present a gun I'm fighting for my life, because that's the stakes you escalated it to.
@@jatbatman " reread what I actually said! I said nothing about not trying." Perhaps I misunderstood. 😞 I thought you were saying, don't try, because you're probably going to take a bullet somewhere regardless (much like you're probably going to get cut somewhere while defending against a knife). " but the second you present a gun I'm fighting for my life, because that's the stakes you escalated it to." Yup, we agree here. 🙂
Just last night there was an armed robbery of Dockside Cannabis in Shoreline , Washington. Video shows employee trying to disarm a robber and getting shot when it fails . He survives thankfully but the footage is very clear if anybody wants to look it up .It's pretty much exactly like that first attempt .
Sobering video. It seems like the guys idea was just to grab the gun and hope for the best. It didn’t appear like he had a specific disarm trained or in mind when he went for the pistol.
Great video! A little tip when wrestling for the gun like you did at 8:03 minutes is to grab the gun from the other side when you wring it from his hands, you get a LOT more leverage that way. Left hand grabs gun and point it to the side, right hand goes under the left and grab the gun ”from behind”. This grip is extremely strong and you can use your whole back muscle and body weight to apply pressure.
Great video. There was a video that some gun guys did on youtube with protective gear doing it with simunition. Depending on the gun type that was used made a difference. If I recall using a double action revolver and a double action auto pistol the all parties knowing what was going to happen and the "victim" could some of the time clear the barrel and not get shot. If the shooter was using a striker fired weapon (Glock) or single action 1911 or double action auto cocked they got hit every time. That is also with simunition moving at about 450 feet per second not 9mm moving at 1400.
@@ArmchairViolence ruclips.net/video/1_k4wYrx3Jo/видео.html I stand corrected they just went single action double action. However, I'd say a striker fired weapon would be similar to single action since it does not require the longer trigger pull a DA would.
Watching Mike go for the holstered weapon I was reminded of the number of techniques I was taught while studying classical ju-jitsu that were there to stop / control the drawing of a sword. . My question on all the gun defenses is they all seem to rely on he attacker holding the weapon one handed. In my experience most shooters with even the smallest level of training will hold the weapon in both hands therefore nullifying these techniques.
@@ArmchairViolence Yeah but then I would ask you, what's the purpose of the threat with the gun? Is it to get you to give him your wallet? Ok, he has to be close enough to take it from you, right? So now he's within arm's reach.
Difference between knives and guns is in a knife you control the hand/arm and try to avoid the blade, and in a gun you control the barrel. The biggest issue I saw on the gun "disarms" and "fights" was he kept grabbing the wrist of the hand holding the gun, leaving the barrel swinging free. If you grab a knife blade you are cut, if you grab a barrel, you can keep it from pointing at you or even rack it back to take it out of battery just enough so it will not fire.
Thank you guys for the fun and informative video. I appreciate the pragmatism and candor. I have faced one person with a gun. I did not disarm them. I was shot in the left hand. That was luck as I bolted when the gun came out. If I had tried to disarm the attacker likely I would have been killed. I have been in three separate knife attacks the first I was stabbed in the chest twice before I caught the third thrust and disarmed the attacker. The other two engagements I had a blade. As you guys made obvious, you are not getting out of a knife attack without being cut. Many martial arts practitioners spend their entire career not understanding this basic fact. Keep up the great work!
Distance, the nature of the attack, speed, surprise, and violence of action dictates the response. If within arms reach, and a disarm is made, moving off-line, and very close to the attacker is critical for disarm or grappling control. Also, very important is when possible maintaining control of the slide if disarming a semi-auto pistol, "meat to metal." One round likely to go off in that case but if the slide is out of battery, likely not to fire again. If the slide is not controlled, then there is nothing stopping the continued firing of the pistol during the disarm. Also, to consider is the placement of the attacker's finger inside the trigger guard, which would be injured or cause pain in the event the slide is controlled and forced against the trigger finger. In the case of disarming a revolver, might be best to train to control the revolver at the hand, not meat to metal, as your hand is likely to be injured if placed forward of the cylinder, due to escaping gases. Excellent points made here in this video, even in the case of a lucky disarm the attacker is unlikely to immediately give up, everyone must have a plan B, C, etc. various sets of martial skills.
Unlikely. Think about the muscles in your wrist. They are a lot stronger at pulling your palm down than pulling the back of your hand. So if someone is holding a gun at you, it's probably easier to get their hand to turn in the direction of their palm than it is to turn out because the wrist is weaker at resisting a force in that direction than in the other.
This is a great video. Mike as usual is top notch in the "voice of reason" role. I tend to look at this way. Think of a gun disarm is another joint lock. It needs the same things as any joint lock. It needs an entry. It needs position. It needs simultaneous defense. It needs to be built on the same fighting fundamentals as any other joint lock. Just like you guys said. One other thing I think you might have considered though is the way the gun operates. There's no stopping the first round from being fired -- its already in the chamber and its HIGHLY unlikely that you can magically slip a finger into the trigger well or under the hammer (if the gun even has an external hammer) to stop it from firing. But if you can get a good grip on the slide (or the wheel in a revolver), not only can you point the line of fire away from your person, you may also be able to cause a malfunction that stops follow-on shots from chambering. That won't end the fight and it doesn't remove the need to get control of the gun, but it will make you safer during the wrestling and may give you an additional second or three to escape while the guy diagnoses/clears the malfunction (if he even knows how). Or, more succinctly, consider the way you grab the gun and not just the leverage for the wrist twist.
This is perfect. It's one of the hardest things to get across to newer students sometimes too, especially if they've been in a traditional martial arts class where knife disarms seem to work effortlessly. Only takes about one live go at it, but you do need a good aggressive attacker to instill that knowledge. I wanted to add a nugget of wisdom I've picked up while teaching self-defense. In the beginning, it was pretty obvious that Jake was using the gun for intimidation--if Mike gave up his wallet that encounter was done. As soon as Mike moved, Jake tried to train the gun on him. I see this in completely new students, I've noticed the inclination in myself, and I've seen it in more experienced fighters. I'm assume it's related to the weapon fixation that occurs when people carry a "self-defense weapon." Students will stand there (or get thrown) trying to get a weapon out of their pocket in response to otherwise easily thwarted attacks.
Awesome video. This perfectly addresses my own concerns that I have voiced and shared about weapon disarms as well. Terrific video, and thank you for sharing.
Never try a gun disarm unless you are certain they are going to shoot you anyway. The only other scenario where I would attempt a gun disarm is if the attacker is trying to take me somewhere. Chances are EXTREMELY high I would rather die where I am than suffer through whatever this person has in store for me! At this point, roll the dice and go for the disarm. Almost any other scenario it isn't worth the risk.
Hi Jake and Mike! I really loved this conversation, and would love to see more of that type of stuff and convos. I also wanted to add my personal experience (if you don’t believe it, I 100% understand, but I hope you’ll believe mine)-recently, I was robbed at gunpoint. Went to a party (a very sketchy one, which is on me), and since I was extremely bored (I don’t tend to drink too much, and the music was garbage), I went outside to… well… pee. It’s in the middle of the desert, so when I saw a weird car parked right next to me, I was extremely surprised. After that, someone got out of the car, and right after that-the dude pulled out a handgun (after he was arrested, the police found out it was an airsoft, but there was no way for me to know), and then, he went and asked for my phone. Now at that point, I watched Ryan Hoover, Icy Mike, Craig Douglas, and many more self defence experts (in addition to my training in Krav and Muay Thai), so I immediately did what I knew-I talked calmly to him, gave him my phone, and when he said I can go, I fucking dashed away. If anyone is actually reading this (and if you believe this, because I know I’m just some rando on the internet, but this was an actual police case), please-comply. Unless they ask something that will kill you, or are threatening to do so immediately, please-give them your valuables. Don’t try your move on them. It’s just not worth it. Again-great video Jake! Hoping you’re gonna be the next big channel!
Great Video! Top notch information, this is definitely one of those situations where you should "fight dirty" that arm drag type of position is pretty much where I ended up when a guy came at me with a knife in a parking lot, my survival was because I had the environmental awareness to see a car approaching and was able to swing him into the oncoming car and get away.
very interesting video. the one thing you forgot was movement. the gun owner always has the ability to step back turn the body and shoot at the same time while using the free hand to hold someone back and create enough space. another thing is the two hand grip that is trained more and more now. but thanks for the video
I'm not a martial artist, I just stumbled over your video. I do know something about guns. I noticed that when you were showing the more realistic result of wrestling you were trying to control the wrist.That gave the gunman enough articulation to muzzle you and get a shot off. Getting shot in the leg can be a devastating and fatal injury, break a femur and you're no longer standing, hit the femoral artery you're bleeding out even if you "win" the wrestling match. If you're going to wrestle over the gun in my humble opinion you need to concentrate on controlling the gun itself and the muzzle direction because likely that gun is going to go off at some point. If it is a semi-automatic and you are able to clamp down on the slide and frame when the gun goes off it doesn't take much force to prevent the slide from functioning and loading another round, now the gun is unable to fire again until it is cleared and you can focus on inflicting grievous damage to the person. With a double action revolver it doesn't take much grip strength to prevent the cylinder from rotating and preventing the gun from firing in the 1st place. But you have to continue to maintain control. I agree that gun disarms are very low percentage, it's not the time it takes to pull a trigger, that is very low, it's the reaction time of the gunman when you make your move that you have to beat and plan on the gun firing.
Yes this! Learn grappling! I can’t tell you how many fat out or shape people who have CCW are like, “that jiujitsu stuff isn’t going to work on me because I have a gun.” Like dude you have to learn to fight and be in shape! Awesome video. I love seeing the martial art RUclipsrs all coming together like the avengers.
And obviously Armchair Violence is the Spider-Man of the martial arts RUclipsr universe. Dude looks like an amalgamation of the different Spider-Men and catches people in a web of submissions.
Every fat or out of shape guy is going to mention that you can't outrun a gun. That attitude is why they're fat and out of shape. Just ignore them and let them finish their donuts and deep-fried french fries.
@@CT-bc6jh Not to mention that most of their so called "training" is ad copy from gun manufacturers to sell kits for their 'weapon platform'(a.k.a. Firearm).
In BJJ we sometimes introduce a knife for fun. Recently we played a game call “Prison Shank”. So you start a no gi roll, and sometime during the roll have a third party throws a training knife into the roll. It’s crazy how that changes the dynamic. My Bad ass blue belt skills go to almost zero. I was rolling with one of our super talented brown belts, a knife was introduced, mind you I had him right were I wanted him being in mount, but when the knife was introduced he grabbed it and I was able to grab the knife and get to guard. Now I have some knife training, which no one really does anymore, I was able to disarm him from guard but not with knife retention so no one had a knife. He made quick work of me and tapped me with a darce. Anyways everything goes out the window when a deadly weapon is introduced. I totally forgot my BJJ skills.
Try it with a dry erase marker sometime . You can see after all the places you would have gotten cut and stabbed . With a training knife its easy for students to kind of try to ignore contact or just not even notice it in the struggle. Can also just put some line chalk on the edge of the trainer . I come out looking like a road map every time
this might sound crazy but i would rather wrestle over a handgun than a knife, with exceptions. it is possible to render a handgun inoperable with the first shot until the problem is fixed. by comparison, a knife can't be manipulated with similar results; someone is getting cut and/or stabbed.
Every disarm " technique " fails to recognize that the person holding the weapon has input into what occurs in the struggle for the weapon. Ultimately, the defender has to decide, is it better for me to attempt the disarm or wait for a better opportunity? There is no simple answer to that question. As Mike said, the shooter is going to shoot, the boxer is going to punch.
The one thing you might add to the gun vs. knife difference is that facing a knife there's at least theoretically the option of keeping the opponent at distance (everything from using kicks, getting an object between you, to running away). Not so much with a gun, so grappling is pretty much the only option there - or the least horrible out of lots of totally horrible ones.
With the more valid disarm you showed and wrestled about, I would suggest the concept of 'Atemi'. Like, while going in, add an elbow, while down fighting for the gun grip, kick him in the groin (props to Master Ken!), bite his hand even!😮 Do something surprising and painful to break the predicament, and loosen his grip finally. I think, the ability to break the immersion into a specific focus, where both opponents are kind of 'spastic' about a single focus issue, can be very advantageous. Like 'shifting the goalposts' in a conversation, which is generally not applauded from a truth standpoint, but in a life or death situation, it might break the opponents strategy.😅
Another factor, is that the hold that it typically shown for gun disarms, is a hold that typically shouldn't be done, you know one hand on the gun, fully outstretched, whereas if the gun user is trained, they may take a different hold, such as two hands, gun closer to the chest, making getting a hold of the gun even harder, especially if they just move backwards.
One thing I've always contemplated is, if you're able to get in close like that and control the arm, would you then also in that moment be able to pair that explosive movement with a forceful push on the mag-release button? And if so, that means there is only one shot in the chamber, redirect the gun away and force that shot away from you, and pray that it doesn't ricochet or something. Or perhaps even if you get that mag dropped out, in the struggle you force the slide back (unlikely because of that spring, but just thinking out loud) to release the bullet in the chamber. Full disclosure, I'm an idiot so there are probably a plethora of reasons why this wouldn't work, but I've always seen a mentality of "control the gun" or "disarm the attacker" but I've never seen one of "Render the gun inert so it won't matter" (except for an obscure Batman book where he wedges the web of his gloved thumb between the hammer and the cylinder of a revolver to prevent it from firing). I mean, the gun is still a wonderful blunt weapon, but if you are able to remove it from firing, wouldn't that be just as good as controlling it?
Just a funny observation about gun disarms. I find ppl tend to focus so much on the initial defense. The whole grab the gun and redirect it. They focus on if it works or doesn't. Can you redirect the gun before the trigger is pulled. But ironically a vast majority of cctv footage I've seen of ppl in real life trying to disarm a gun during muggings or robberies or just scuffles actually successfully pull it off. It's always the struggle afterwards that ends badly with the gunman usually getting their gun back and shooting the victim.
LOL this video was so good. This reminds me of me and my buddies when we were little. We would do random scenarios like fighting with nerf guns, foam knives, and wrestling of course. Sometimes somebody would drop their gun or run out of bullets, and the wrestling match was on. If you got hit with a dart you were dead. Long story short, the guy with the loaded nerf gun ALWAYS won.
I could see on a few occasions that the one that's holding the gun has had his arm held could just reach around with other hand and change gun hands ?..
My training on gun disarms goes like this "If someone wants something from you, give it to them. If they are trying to use the gun to take you someplace else, that is when to resist if you have the opportunity as you don't know if you will get another and the situation is going to get worse if they move you. That said, there is very specific distance limits to where a disarm can work as you noted and I can't believe there are even people suggesting long distance disarms. The issue I have with the video is that the discussion seemed to build off what looked like a crappy technique to begin with. Maybe you did focus on what was considered the highest percent technique by someone who very well knows more than I. There were. a few relevant things I thought were left out. First is the probability that the gun will fire when the disarm is initiated. Not because the person threatening you with the gun intends to, but because your movement to redirect the gun will likely creates a pulling motion on the trigger and if that isn't enough their instinct to try and pull the gun away from you is likely to. There are a few risks that need to be considered when you know the gun will probably go off. First you ideally need to be clear of the axis of the barrel because you don't know how much movement you will get before the gun goes off. Second, the gun firing creates a potential risk to bystanders and if you know there is someone to the right of left of you it can affect the direction of the redirect in the disarm. On the flip side if the gun goes off and in the case of a semi-automatic handgun disarm, if you have secured the slide in the initial disarm, the gun will be out of battery and cannot be fired again till someone can get two hands on the gun and pull the slide to chamber a fresh round. With the gun out of battery, while one may want to assume it could still fire, the realistic chances of it going off again in subsequent wrestling for it are minimal. Because of this I am surprised that the technique demonstrated did not secure the slide in the initial redirect. Maybe such techniques were considered too low a percentage though to me it seemed at worst it be about even. Having trained many many times with resisting opponents and resisted myself when I was holding the gun, the most effective way I know of to get the barrel of the gun pointing back at the person trying the disarm is to simply to fall backwards onto my butt. The lesson here is that if the attacker starts to fall be it from their intent, or consequence of pulling back, or you crashing into them after the initial disarm, you need to be prepared for this and to go down with them to maintain control.
That kotegaeshi can actualy be really useful in mma, when you rock someone and get them in a panic defensive mind set, you can take them down without wasting much energy, hard to pull off though and needs alot of training to even try and attempt it
The number of times a boxer/muay thai practitioner could have demolished "Gun Man's Lady Parts" during that initial scuffle was actually getting me thinking about something other than sex jokes for once 😂.
8:04 that's exactly what i say about knife disarms too its grungy and savage and the important thing is using some leverage in a safe spot but if your about to die you don't have a choice
This is the first time I've heard someone say something intelligent about gun disarms. It's not that you don't learn or practice the disarming as with any techniques striking or grappling they will not always work, but it doesn't mean you don't practice
I think traditional jujutsu would be better with weapon involved wrestling, because that's literally what it is, and what Mike says at the end "it's the same for knifes" it's true!, hip tossing people from an arm drag without letting go of the arm is my highest percentage move in this (it works like 1 time out of 20 lol but hey that's something). Also when you were talking about how even in mount with you at the bottom you are winning anyways? in jujutsu the most dominant positions are the knee on belly/chest with both arms on top of one arm (isolating a weapon) and judo style side control doing the same thing. I think this is more of a personal opinion than a comment about the video but whatever I remember this techniques that I was thaught unarmed but they make way more sense when weapons are involved, I am just sharing my epyphany.
I'm curious if switching to an americana grip from the two on one controlling the gun would allow you to keep the gun pointed away from you and give you the option of either falling forward to an old school judo style armbar or twisting the arm backwards for the shoulder lock
TDI knife in a nice fast belt sheath for weapon retention a nice little bonus. Id like to know what Mike thinks of that… I carry one and practice with my left hand a lot. I figure the right is going to be busy trying to keep my primary. Im old and don’t punch so well from injuries. That little sharp knife hopefully will level the field a bit.
It's been my philosophy for a long time that trying to take a gun away is less effective than trying to incapacitate your enemy. If you're going to take the risk of engaging an enemy armed with a gun then it's reasonable to assume that you've determined there is no safe alternative where you walk away from this event. That being said, wrestling for a firearm still presents a huge chance of you being killed anyways so I personally would try to create a distraction to get the enemies eyes and attention off me and utilize that opportunity to kill/incapacitate them with in a very quick and violent manner i.e. you get them to look away briefly and you head kick them into another realm, or slam them with a takedown or draw a pocket knife and stab them in the heart or base of the skull. I mean you've got a similarly slim chance of pulling that off as you would actually disarming them. That's just my 2 cents. It's still all predicated on the unlikely chance that a significant enough distraction presents itself or if you're even capable of knocking someone out with one punch/kick/slam etc...
Alot of people also don't realize the psychological disruption of the person SHOOTING the gun at any point....fighting over the gun or grappling with them. Not letting go, panicking, flinching is hard for most people to do and that can get you killed. I don't know this first hand but unfortunately from watching many many videos of real robberies and situations involving guns. People panic and let go of the gun or the attackers arms, flinch and give up position...panic turn and run..etc etc. Drill like in this video but just imagine a cannon going off randomly right beside your hand/body at any point........Don't know how you can prep for that short of training with a gun with loud blanks.
"The dude with the gun is gunna shoot gun bullets out of his bullet gun."
That is the laugh I needed today. Thank you.
"gunna" -Seth, to crickets 😢
I forgot about this comment! And I forgot Seth repeated it. Good shot, Alex. I'm sure I spelled it that way on purpose. 😁
I'm still happy I caught something
It took me a minute to realize the context. Now, I can’t stop laughing.
@PaMuShin did you mean to comment on this thread?
@PaMuShin oh ok - this was filmed a while ago so I wasn't sure.
Yeah, man you can get stabbed innumerable different ways. The "flowery" way I showed still works, just showing its not always the case
I'm not the only one who reacts this way when catching something! My natural reaction is to swat it away when something is thrown at me. It's like my brain goes "They didn't want it otherwise they wouldn't have thrown it. Then I don't want it either. Slap!"
Best video I've seen on the subject
Just attended a seminar with Ryan Hoover on knife defense and he said something brilliant that sums up what y'all were talking about. You are not fighting a knife, you a fighting a person holding a knife. You can't forget there is another person attached to the weapon. Just because you got "control" over the arm doesn't mean the fight is over. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that hitting people in the face tends to make them let go of things so if you get the arm and forget they have another arm they can beat you with. Also, people have a hard time remembering to shoot or stab you if you suddenly toss their legs in the air causing them to land head first. Enjoyed this conversation.
Is it weird that I read that whole thing in Ryan Hoover's voice?
@@Raiden4019 only if you make it weird…?
@@FitToFightRepublic LOL!!!
There is one great rule of withing fighting with weapons in historical treaties, don't attack the weapon, attack the person.
"they have another arm they can beat you with" - Yeah but if you get the knife you could stab him with it. Seriously people, I understand that every idiot has an opinion but the whole point is either kill the dude who is attacking you or run away. Anything between those two is basically a given (besides getting wounded or dying of course).
If I would trust anyone with gun stuff in martial arts; it would be Icy Mike. Especially since he is still humble and kinda scared about the whole thing.
And he's not wrong. I have practiced disarms, and what you see when they go "live" is exactly what they look like. Disarms are a huge fight for the gun, or they'll fail every time. If you are doing a disarm, you are fighting for your life. It should be treated as such.
@@jatbatman The only weapon that I feel somewhat comfortable fighting control for is blunt weapons; since you do not die instantly when you lose control. ^^
Blades and guns though... Constant uphill battle on slippery ice so too say.
@@Stahlvanten I don't disagree, but there's safe options for training and practice. If you ever need the skill, it's good to know. Also if you ever actually need the skill, your life is already in the balance. I'm not saying to ever feel comfortable with it. In fact the second someone pulls ANY kind of weapon, you should be uncomfortable. If you're not, you have no natural survival instinct.
@@jatbatman Like you said, I also dont disagree with what you said/wrote.
But from experience; I have wrestled batons and "cudgles" (English is not my first language so I am alittle unsure if its the right word) from people in fights.
Knives I backed away from always to get at them at other situations/scenarios.
And yes; me and my childhood friends was among some truly scary and stupid people (as in no impulse control) and we were stupid to be around that kind of people.
But we thought we had good reasons.
Guns doesnt really exist where I live at; unless your into heroin dealing or the coke business.
@@jatbatman Must mention though as soon as hammers and shit is involved that is "blunt" but has more of a piercing impact... Thats really scary.
Bats and foldable batons is bad, but guns and edges are horrifying.
To my untrained eye, the main problem with these "take the gun techniques" is, that the guy with the gun can just keep his distance! One step back, and you are screwed.
do he really need to get all that close to me in the first place if he got a gun.
Well, he has the gun pointed at you to persuade you to do something, right. And it's probably something that requires him to be close to you. Otherwise why not call you while has you in the sights of sniper rifle. Muggers don't stand 30 feet away from you and tell you to throw your wallet.
This is just one of those things you do because, thinking that you can't defeat him while he's holding the gun, you've tried everything else, such as give him what your wallet, etc.., and he's still pointing the gun.
Oh my god I think you guys might have successfully summarized the reality of a gun disarms.
12:44 Something about this direct comparison of demonstration versus reality was really funny but also incredibly morbid. Just seeing how fast that stab came out and retracted, all before he could even react, is terrifying.
If someone pulls a knife on you, you gotta make peace with the fact you are going to get carved up and the least worst place for that to happen is the back of your arms, so I would try to make my torso as small a target as possible and shield it with my arms.
@@LicoriceLain I've seen that technique somewhere. Like literally just wrap your arms around your stomach, take the first few stabs or slices, then move in.
@@Profile__1 In a real fight for your life, it may be all you can do in time.
I appreciate your guys' humor around this. "Bullet gun," "bullets go far" both great uses of language. Way to own, as you said, not being an expert. All good stuff, guys.
I’m so glad Seth pops up on so many channels
He’s definitely the type of dude that could get me to show up every day 🥋🔥👊🏻
We had gun disarms in our combatives curriculum in the military, but if you look into police reports and such stuff you'll quickly see that most of these just never work. Most people who tried to disarm their opponents are either injured or killed. The problem with disarms is that there are too many variables and taking away an object from a resisting opponent is way harder than these training sequences make it look. Most of these disarms - of course - work perfectly fine in a controlled environment with a cooperative training partner.
ok, well, what would you suggest? "always carry a gun" isn't the answer either. I mean, HE HAS HIS GUN ALREADY OUT AND COVERING YOU, so if you're so quick that you can draw a firearm and fire before he fires, couldn't you have used that speed to do a disarm?
one quick thing I didn’t see mentioned is: guns are LOUD. If you grapple someone with a gun they can panic and let out a couple shots, even if they miss the sound can still deafen/ concuss you enough to lose track of the situation
Unless he has been going to clubs without hearing protection for too many years so he is half deaf anyway.
Or unless you already ARE using hearing protection because you work as security in a club.
My instructor taught special forces, and when i asked him what he thought avout disarms he said "practice them in case you have no other choice, but have in mind you will most likely get shot... Just make sure its not somewhere that will kill you for sure
Have in mind, its not like he was the sole instructor, special forces here take courses in different msrtial arts to conplement their training, i didnt train like special forces, i just trained with a guy who had to train them, and they have to present the curriculum, and those who know tell.him, whatbif the curriculum is at an acceptable level for them, most of the dtuff isndiscarded for being overcomplicated
Gun disarms happen more often than people think. They just aren’t the flashy martial arts disarms that people associate with gun disarms. They are much more raw looking. More of a struggle
BASICALLY WRESTLING
The best disarm-gun technique is feign compliance, look for ambush or exit.
I love the phrase "gun bullets"
Way cooler than knife bullets, or baseball bat bullets, or even shoe bullets.
Hey icy mike i think it'll be a really cool training exercise to use a paint ball pistol to demonstrate how chaotic a live, full resistance situation can be. :) love your stuff
That would hurt SO bad, though!
Better idea: Use a nerf gun with chalk on the end of the dart. It will leave a chalk mark but won't hurt!
That's a great idea,thanks
@@ArmchairViolence I fully agree it'd hurt more than a chalk dart, but at the same time i think that's kind of the point. Each member of the exercise is really invested in not getting shot, and i think that adds a ton of realism while, at the same time, keeping it very safe. would like to know what you think of this perspective :)
@@GIFT1FROM1THE1GODZ It's basically the difference between light sparring and hard sparring. But what is the point of doing hard sparring? It's not about fear of getting hit. Most people are already so afraid to lose that their pride is more than enough incentive. The point is that the pain you feel is realistic to how the actual fight would go down. It risks more damage, but is more realistic.
If you use a paintball gun it will do damage, but it's still not at all realistic. It doesn't imitate an actual gunshot, but can still do damage. It's all the pain with none of the gain.
I think the caulk nerf dart is better because it's completely safe and the idea of competition is still enough for people to take it seriously.
The only problem I forsee is that nerf guns are so flimsy that fighting over it might break it lol
Plus, they're not quite shaped like an actual gun.
@@GIFT1FROM1THE1GODZ I would be afraid of actual injury, especially to the eyes or hands.
I love the outro song! You should get Mike to do a track with you too, rumor has it he can rap.
We were literally discussing gun disarms last night in class. Our Black Belts have to come up with self defenses for their next test. I stopped my part of the class to go to the other side of the mat just to talk about how everything they were doing was unrealistic and would get them shot! Nicely done!
So you're saying they could pass the test by just handing over their wallet? I'm guessing, karate?
@@enoughofyourkoicarp or, they decided it would be better to pursue different self defense aspects. And the real answer is it started as ITF TKD, morphed to become more than that, and incorporates a lot of BJJ principles into it, as that's the other main focus of the school.
@@enoughofyourkoicarp - Successful self defense isn't successful defense of personal property; lots of people have died for wallets that they ended up having no use for... and lost anyway. If your money matters that much, and you think your technique's that good, you can always roll the dice, but snake eyes are still a bitch.
@@Malt454 Not an expert but I'm thinking you missed the joke.
@@enoughofyourkoicarp - So the joke was that they should have pretended to disarm someone who had a real gun instead of surrendering their wallets? You're right - that is pretty funny.
Gun disarms are the most "IF/MAYBE" things in self defence. So many factors to count in: size, distance, psychological state of the attacker, your reaction speed. It's a gun, it's loud, it's scary, it can discharge really fast and you can't forget that. Also there is a person who is holding that gun, so not only you have to try to move away /move his hand away/ but you have to make sure the the asailant will not just take a freaking step back and shoot you.
I remember we tried with a real thing, and half of the moves became unusable just by the fact that the trigger gets pulled faster than you can even move away from the line of fire/move the hand away.
Knives are equally dangerous
@@zyx7478
Nope.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903given you cannot grab or touch anything outside whats already in the grip of the assailant, I would disagree with you.
One tiny slice on the wrong part of your body and you are dead, you'll just be alive long enough for you to process that you're bleeding out and you cant stop it unless you EDC a tourquinet (sometimes not even)
Knives are fucked and you will suffer more of its damage due to its nature as a weapon. A gun is pretty manageable in comparison, wont even make as big a wound as a knife can and if ur shot somewhere inconsequential, your survival rate aint half bad. If I gouge that same limb with a knife I feel like you're going to ha e bigger risks of something important being sliced.
@@TheStaniG
Uhm, no. Guns very much cause heavier wounds.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903
"Guns very much cause heavier wounds."
Sure, but the point is, a cut on your inside wrist and you're just as dead.
Saw a video where a Kung Fu guy was explaining the idea about striking the forearm area (like in The Equalizer), and you're not doing that to get leverage; apparently that's a pressure point, and if someone grips you right there, it makes it harder to keep your fist closed. A lot of people seem to think you're doing that to move the forearm and get leverage, that's not what you're doing.
Okay, so the moral of the story is? Learn how to fight?
At least a bit diffrent to " If he has a knife you are dead, so you're stupid if you train how to deal with it!"
Or have a better weapon than a knife. Other than that be a better runner.
That song at the end needs to be my ring tone lol
Thank you for saying this, so many people misunderstand what a disarm actually looks like. They can be done but they are literally a huge fight for the weapon. Disarms are violent, they have to be in order to actually be effective. The only time disarms aren't a risk is if you can get ahead of their draw. That gives you a chance to actually keep the gun from pointing at you.
I once disarmed my brother with a BB gun when he was on leave from the army, and it was so aggressive he had to remove three bbs from his abdomen. There was a fourth bb in the dirt between our first point of contact. That's what disarms look like. They're not clean, and anyone that sells you on them being is selling you bullshit.
A lot of things aren't clean...I guess you would say, never punch someone, because it's possible they block it and punch you back and knock you out?
@@neutrino78x reread what I actually said! I said nothing about not trying. I said in order to be effective they have to be violent. I did state they are not clean, but the second you present a gun I'm fighting for my life, because that's the stakes you escalated it to.
@@jatbatman
" reread what I actually said! I said nothing about not trying."
Perhaps I misunderstood. 😞 I thought you were saying, don't try, because you're probably going to take a bullet somewhere regardless (much like you're probably going to get cut somewhere while defending against a knife).
" but the second you present a gun I'm fighting for my life, because that's the stakes you escalated it to."
Yup, we agree here. 🙂
seeing mike with the zna productions sweater almost feels like an easter egg
Just last night there was an armed robbery of Dockside Cannabis in Shoreline , Washington. Video shows employee trying to disarm a robber and getting shot when it fails . He survives thankfully but the footage is very clear if anybody wants to look it up .It's pretty much exactly like that first attempt .
Sobering video. It seems like the guys idea was just to grab the gun and hope for the best. It didn’t appear like he had a specific disarm trained or in mind when he went for the pistol.
Praying for a boost from the algorithm overlords for you
Hope to see more collabs with Icymike and Sensei seth great video brother
It's awesome seeing all these guys together.
Great video! A little tip when wrestling for the gun like you did at 8:03 minutes is to grab the gun from the other side when you wring it from his hands, you get a LOT more leverage that way.
Left hand grabs gun and point it to the side, right hand goes under the left and grab the gun ”from behind”. This grip is extremely strong and you can use your whole back muscle and body weight to apply pressure.
Great video. There was a video that some gun guys did on youtube with protective gear doing it with simunition. Depending on the gun type that was used made a difference. If I recall using a double action revolver and a double action auto pistol the all parties knowing what was going to happen and the "victim" could some of the time clear the barrel and not get shot. If the shooter was using a striker fired weapon (Glock) or single action 1911 or double action auto cocked they got hit every time. That is also with simunition moving at about 450 feet per second not 9mm moving at 1400.
Wait, why was striker fired harder to disarm than ones with a hammer? Do you have a link to the video?
@@ArmchairViolence ruclips.net/video/1_k4wYrx3Jo/видео.html
I stand corrected they just went single action double action. However, I'd say a striker fired weapon would be similar to single action since it does not require the longer trigger pull a DA would.
Watching Mike go for the holstered weapon I was reminded of the number of techniques I was taught while studying classical ju-jitsu that were there to stop / control the drawing of a sword. . My question on all the gun defenses is they all seem to rely on he attacker holding the weapon one handed. In my experience most shooters with even the smallest level of training will hold the weapon in both hands therefore nullifying these techniques.
Anyone that can actually use firearms well won't ever have the gun within your reach, and you'll just have to accept death lol
@@ArmchairViolence
Yeah but then I would ask you, what's the purpose of the threat with the gun? Is it to get you to give him your wallet? Ok, he has to be close enough to take it from you, right? So now he's within arm's reach.
I'm glad I watched this. Thank you guys!
2:18 It was so simple it became complicated again. Today I learned that gun disarms are very zen. Love the videos.
the song was beautiful
Difference between knives and guns is in a knife you control the hand/arm and try to avoid the blade, and in a gun you control the barrel. The biggest issue I saw on the gun "disarms" and "fights" was he kept grabbing the wrist of the hand holding the gun, leaving the barrel swinging free. If you grab a knife blade you are cut, if you grab a barrel, you can keep it from pointing at you or even rack it back to take it out of battery just enough so it will not fire.
Omg the outro song was fucking amazing 🤣🤣
Thank you guys for the fun and informative video.
I appreciate the pragmatism and candor.
I have faced one person with a gun. I did not disarm them. I was shot in the left hand. That was luck as I bolted when the gun came out. If I had tried to disarm the attacker likely I would have been killed.
I have been in three separate knife attacks the first I was stabbed in the chest twice before I caught the third thrust and disarmed the attacker. The other two engagements I had a blade. As you guys made obvious, you are not getting out of a knife attack without being cut. Many martial arts practitioners spend their entire career not understanding this basic fact.
Keep up the great work!
Distance, the nature of the attack, speed, surprise, and violence of action dictates the response. If within arms reach, and a disarm is made, moving off-line, and very close to the attacker is critical for disarm or grappling control. Also, very important is when possible maintaining control of the slide if disarming a semi-auto pistol, "meat to metal." One round likely to go off in that case but if the slide is out of battery, likely not to fire again. If the slide is not controlled, then there is nothing stopping the continued firing of the pistol during the disarm. Also, to consider is the placement of the attacker's finger inside the trigger guard, which would be injured or cause pain in the event the slide is controlled and forced against the trigger finger. In the case of disarming a revolver, might be best to train to control the revolver at the hand, not meat to metal, as your hand is likely to be injured if placed forward of the cylinder, due to escaping gases. Excellent points made here in this video, even in the case of a lucky disarm the attacker is unlikely to immediately give up, everyone must have a plan B, C, etc. various sets of martial skills.
This is a FANTASTIC idea!!! Definitely using this drill in class!! Thank you for the great content!!
Awesome video, loved the outro song ^^
The song is hilarious and a perfect fit. Keep up the good work.
2:55 "GUNna"
That pun was faster than a speeding bullet
Everything we learn is just another tool in the toolbox! Thanks for the realistic look at "gun disarms"!
I've always wondered why everyone tried to turn the gun in and not out? Is it a training thing to not hurt the other guys trigger finger?
Unlikely. Think about the muscles in your wrist. They are a lot stronger at pulling your palm down than pulling the back of your hand. So if someone is holding a gun at you, it's probably easier to get their hand to turn in the direction of their palm than it is to turn out because the wrist is weaker at resisting a force in that direction than in the other.
This is a great video. Mike as usual is top notch in the "voice of reason" role.
I tend to look at this way. Think of a gun disarm is another joint lock. It needs the same things as any joint lock. It needs an entry. It needs position. It needs simultaneous defense. It needs to be built on the same fighting fundamentals as any other joint lock. Just like you guys said.
One other thing I think you might have considered though is the way the gun operates. There's no stopping the first round from being fired -- its already in the chamber and its HIGHLY unlikely that you can magically slip a finger into the trigger well or under the hammer (if the gun even has an external hammer) to stop it from firing. But if you can get a good grip on the slide (or the wheel in a revolver), not only can you point the line of fire away from your person, you may also be able to cause a malfunction that stops follow-on shots from chambering. That won't end the fight and it doesn't remove the need to get control of the gun, but it will make you safer during the wrestling and may give you an additional second or three to escape while the guy diagnoses/clears the malfunction (if he even knows how).
Or, more succinctly, consider the way you grab the gun and not just the leverage for the wrist twist.
Love that outro song :) it could be much longer I'm sure
This is perfect. It's one of the hardest things to get across to newer students sometimes too, especially if they've been in a traditional martial arts class where knife disarms seem to work effortlessly. Only takes about one live go at it, but you do need a good aggressive attacker to instill that knowledge. I wanted to add a nugget of wisdom I've picked up while teaching self-defense. In the beginning, it was pretty obvious that Jake was using the gun for intimidation--if Mike gave up his wallet that encounter was done. As soon as Mike moved, Jake tried to train the gun on him. I see this in completely new students, I've noticed the inclination in myself, and I've seen it in more experienced fighters. I'm assume it's related to the weapon fixation that occurs when people carry a "self-defense weapon." Students will stand there (or get thrown) trying to get a weapon out of their pocket in response to otherwise easily thwarted attacks.
All of you in the same room made my day! Thanks and be safe
Awesome video. This perfectly addresses my own concerns that I have voiced and shared about weapon disarms as well. Terrific video, and thank you for sharing.
is that a ZNA Productions Hoddie???? omg I love that!
Favorite line in video... Mike: Under pressure you don't preform well. Truer words...
I spewed coffe out of my nose at the song. Well played!!!
🤣🤛🤛👍👍👍
Never try a gun disarm unless you are certain they are going to shoot you anyway.
The only other scenario where I would attempt a gun disarm is if the attacker is trying to take me somewhere. Chances are EXTREMELY high I would rather die where I am than suffer through whatever this person has in store for me! At this point, roll the dice and go for the disarm. Almost any other scenario it isn't worth the risk.
Great video guys.
"in reality you just stabbed me, oh god". That was funny af
Been on youtube for 2 months and you've already collab'd with hard2hurt? That's so cool
Great info btw
Awesome Video Man!
Hi Jake and Mike! I really loved this conversation, and would love to see more of that type of stuff and convos. I also wanted to add my personal experience (if you don’t believe it, I 100% understand, but I hope you’ll believe mine)-recently, I was robbed at gunpoint. Went to a party (a very sketchy one, which is on me), and since I was extremely bored (I don’t tend to drink too much, and the music was garbage), I went outside to… well… pee. It’s in the middle of the desert, so when I saw a weird car parked right next to me, I was extremely surprised. After that, someone got out of the car, and right after that-the dude pulled out a handgun (after he was arrested, the police found out it was an airsoft, but there was no way for me to know), and then, he went and asked for my phone. Now at that point, I watched Ryan Hoover, Icy Mike, Craig Douglas, and many more self defence experts (in addition to my training in Krav and Muay Thai), so I immediately did what I knew-I talked calmly to him, gave him my phone, and when he said I can go, I fucking dashed away. If anyone is actually reading this (and if you believe this, because I know I’m just some rando on the internet, but this was an actual police case), please-comply. Unless they ask something that will kill you, or are threatening to do so immediately, please-give them your valuables. Don’t try your move on them. It’s just not worth it. Again-great video Jake! Hoping you’re gonna be the next big channel!
Great Video! Top notch information, this is definitely one of those situations where you should "fight dirty" that arm drag type of position is pretty much where I ended up when a guy came at me with a knife in a parking lot, my survival was because I had the environmental awareness to see a car approaching and was able to swing him into the oncoming car and get away.
Knife is more dangerous to wrestle,well maybe more difficult ,because if you grab the blade of a knife,you loose your hand or finger
very interesting video. the one thing you forgot was movement. the gun owner always has the ability to step back turn the body and shoot at the same time while using the free hand to hold someone back and create enough space. another thing is the two hand grip that is trained more and more now. but thanks for the video
great video. you and icy mike make awesome collabs
Great video! Entertaining as always lol. Liked how hard2hurt was wearing a ZNA sweater. Gotta love Eli.
I was just looking for comments if anyone had noticed it too brings back memories of when i used to make weapons and watch ZNA pretty much every day
I'm not a martial artist, I just stumbled over your video. I do know something about guns. I noticed that when you were showing the more realistic result of wrestling you were trying to control the wrist.That gave the gunman enough articulation to muzzle you and get a shot off. Getting shot in the leg can be a devastating and fatal injury, break a femur and you're no longer standing, hit the femoral artery you're bleeding out even if you "win" the wrestling match. If you're going to wrestle over the gun in my humble opinion you need to concentrate on controlling the gun itself and the muzzle direction because likely that gun is going to go off at some point. If it is a semi-automatic and you are able to clamp down on the slide and frame when the gun goes off it doesn't take much force to prevent the slide from functioning and loading another round, now the gun is unable to fire again until it is cleared and you can focus on inflicting grievous damage to the person. With a double action revolver it doesn't take much grip strength to prevent the cylinder from rotating and preventing the gun from firing in the 1st place. But you have to continue to maintain control. I agree that gun disarms are very low percentage, it's not the time it takes to pull a trigger, that is very low, it's the reaction time of the gunman when you make your move that you have to beat and plan on the gun firing.
Not enough people giving props to the Billy Joel Parody over here
Yes this! Learn grappling! I can’t tell you how many fat out or shape people who have CCW are like, “that jiujitsu stuff isn’t going to work on me because I have a gun.” Like dude you have to learn to fight and be in shape! Awesome video. I love seeing the martial art RUclipsrs all coming together like the avengers.
And obviously Armchair Violence is the Spider-Man of the martial arts RUclipsr universe. Dude looks like an amalgamation of the different Spider-Men and catches people in a web of submissions.
Not to mention many of them don’t train gun retention skills.
Every fat or out of shape guy is going to mention that you can't outrun a gun. That attitude is why they're fat and out of shape. Just ignore them and let them finish their donuts and deep-fried french fries.
@@CT-bc6jh Not to mention that most of their so called "training" is ad copy from gun manufacturers to sell kits for their 'weapon platform'(a.k.a. Firearm).
I mean if they have a gun I wouldn't start insulting them lol
In BJJ we sometimes introduce a knife for fun. Recently we played a game call “Prison Shank”. So you start a no gi roll, and sometime during the roll have a third party throws a training knife into the roll. It’s crazy how that changes the dynamic. My Bad ass blue belt skills go to almost zero. I was rolling with one of our super talented brown belts, a knife was introduced, mind you I had him right were I wanted him being in mount, but when the knife was introduced he grabbed it and I was able to grab the knife and get to guard. Now I have some knife training, which no one really does anymore, I was able to disarm him from guard but not with knife retention so no one had a knife. He made quick work of me and tapped me with a darce. Anyways everything goes out the window when a deadly weapon is introduced. I totally forgot my BJJ skills.
Try it with a dry erase marker sometime . You can see after all the places you would have gotten cut and stabbed . With a training knife its easy for students to kind of try to ignore contact or just not even notice it in the struggle. Can also just put some line chalk on the edge of the trainer . I come out looking like a road map every time
I learned from this video, that the best gun disarm is a spin kick.
this might sound crazy but i would rather wrestle over a handgun than a knife, with exceptions. it is possible to render a handgun inoperable with the first shot until the problem is fixed. by comparison, a knife can't be manipulated with similar results; someone is getting cut and/or stabbed.
Every disarm " technique " fails to recognize that the person holding the weapon has input into what occurs in the struggle for the weapon. Ultimately, the defender has to decide, is it better for me to attempt the disarm or wait for a better opportunity? There is no simple answer to that question. As Mike said, the shooter is going to shoot, the boxer is going to punch.
Great video! Completely on point.
OK... This is the first youtube video I've watched that was worth seeing through the end credits!
The one thing you might add to the gun vs. knife difference is that facing a knife there's at least theoretically the option of keeping the opponent at distance (everything from using kicks, getting an object between you, to running away). Not so much with a gun, so grappling is pretty much the only option there - or the least horrible out of lots of totally horrible ones.
With the more valid disarm you showed and wrestled about, I would suggest the concept of 'Atemi'.
Like, while going in, add an elbow, while down fighting for the gun grip, kick him in the groin (props to Master Ken!), bite his hand even!😮
Do something surprising and painful to break the predicament, and loosen his grip finally.
I think, the ability to break the immersion into a specific focus, where both opponents are kind of 'spastic' about a single focus issue, can be very advantageous.
Like 'shifting the goalposts' in a conversation, which is generally not applauded from a truth standpoint, but in a life or death situation, it might break the opponents strategy.😅
I really like that setup with multiple xperienced people, contributing to the issue.
FIve brains see more points that one brain...
Another factor, is that the hold that it typically shown for gun disarms, is a hold that typically shouldn't be done, you know one hand on the gun, fully outstretched, whereas if the gun user is trained, they may take a different hold, such as two hands, gun closer to the chest, making getting a hold of the gun even harder, especially if they just move backwards.
Hence the need for groin strikes or strikes to the face at the same time you are obtaining control of the gun.
0:12 made me burst in laughter out loud
One thing I've always contemplated is, if you're able to get in close like that and control the arm, would you then also in that moment be able to pair that explosive movement with a forceful push on the mag-release button? And if so, that means there is only one shot in the chamber, redirect the gun away and force that shot away from you, and pray that it doesn't ricochet or something. Or perhaps even if you get that mag dropped out, in the struggle you force the slide back (unlikely because of that spring, but just thinking out loud) to release the bullet in the chamber.
Full disclosure, I'm an idiot so there are probably a plethora of reasons why this wouldn't work, but I've always seen a mentality of "control the gun" or "disarm the attacker" but I've never seen one of "Render the gun inert so it won't matter" (except for an obscure Batman book where he wedges the web of his gloved thumb between the hammer and the cylinder of a revolver to prevent it from firing). I mean, the gun is still a wonderful blunt weapon, but if you are able to remove it from firing, wouldn't that be just as good as controlling it?
Just a funny observation about gun disarms. I find ppl tend to focus so much on the initial defense. The whole grab the gun and redirect it. They focus on if it works or doesn't. Can you redirect the gun before the trigger is pulled. But ironically a vast majority of cctv footage I've seen of ppl in real life trying to disarm a gun during muggings or robberies or just scuffles actually successfully pull it off. It's always the struggle afterwards that ends badly with the gunman usually getting their gun back and shooting the victim.
9:35 I literally experienced this reality in No-Gi class tonight and it made me think of then rewatch this video.
LOL this video was so good. This reminds me of me and my buddies when we were little. We would do random scenarios like fighting with nerf guns, foam knives, and wrestling of course. Sometimes somebody would drop their gun or run out of bullets, and the wrestling match was on. If you got hit with a dart you were dead. Long story short, the guy with the loaded nerf gun ALWAYS won.
Most important conversation EVER for self defense! Ok, maybe not the most, but most relevant to current social media fads.
I could see on a few occasions that the one that's holding the gun has had his arm held could just reach around with other hand and change gun hands ?..
Song in the end killed me
My training on gun disarms goes like this "If someone wants something from you, give it to them. If they are trying to use the gun to take you someplace else, that is when to resist if you have the opportunity as you don't know if you will get another and the situation is going to get worse if they move you. That said, there is very specific distance limits to where a disarm can work as you noted and I can't believe there are even people suggesting long distance disarms.
The issue I have with the video is that the discussion seemed to build off what looked like a crappy technique to begin with. Maybe you did focus on what was considered the highest percent technique by someone who very well knows more than I. There were. a few relevant things I thought were left out.
First is the probability that the gun will fire when the disarm is initiated. Not because the person threatening you with the gun intends to, but because your movement to redirect the gun will likely creates a pulling motion on the trigger and if that isn't enough their instinct to try and pull the gun away from you is likely to.
There are a few risks that need to be considered when you know the gun will probably go off. First you ideally need to be clear of the axis of the barrel because you don't know how much movement you will get before the gun goes off. Second, the gun firing creates a potential risk to bystanders and if you know there is someone to the right of left of you it can affect the direction of the redirect in the disarm.
On the flip side if the gun goes off and in the case of a semi-automatic handgun disarm, if you have secured the slide in the initial disarm, the gun will be out of battery and cannot be fired again till someone can get two hands on the gun and pull the slide to chamber a fresh round. With the gun out of battery, while one may want to assume it could still fire, the realistic chances of it going off again in subsequent wrestling for it are minimal.
Because of this I am surprised that the technique demonstrated did not secure the slide in the initial redirect. Maybe such techniques were considered too low a percentage though to me it seemed at worst it be about even.
Having trained many many times with resisting opponents and resisted myself when I was holding the gun, the most effective way I know of to get the barrel of the gun pointing back at the person trying the disarm is to simply to fall backwards onto my butt. The lesson here is that if the attacker starts to fall be it from their intent, or consequence of pulling back, or you crashing into them after the initial disarm, you need to be prepared for this and to go down with them to maintain control.
That kotegaeshi can actualy be really useful in mma, when you rock someone and get them in a panic defensive mind set, you can take them down without wasting much energy, hard to pull off though and needs alot of training to even try and attempt it
This is by far the best gun disarm video I’ve ever seen with the possible exception of a few Ryan Hoover videos I’ve seen
Good collaboration. You're wrestling skill compared to uncertainty is an amazing equation. Shows the reality of uncertainty in combat
The number of times a boxer/muay thai practitioner could have demolished "Gun Man's Lady Parts" during that initial scuffle was actually getting me thinking about something other than sex jokes for once 😂.
8:04 that's exactly what i say about knife disarms too its grungy and savage and the important thing is using some leverage in a safe spot but if your about to die you don't have a choice
Fight over a gun is like fighting over the remote to the tv with your bro.
Not to mention that the gun is probably being fired during all this grappling.
This is the first time I've heard someone say something intelligent about gun disarms. It's not that you don't learn or practice the disarming as with any techniques striking or grappling they will not always work, but it doesn't mean you don't practice
I think traditional jujutsu would be better with weapon involved wrestling, because that's literally what it is, and what Mike says at the end "it's the same for knifes" it's true!, hip tossing people from an arm drag without letting go of the arm is my highest percentage move in this (it works like 1 time out of 20 lol but hey that's something).
Also when you were talking about how even in mount with you at the bottom you are winning anyways? in jujutsu the most dominant positions are the knee on belly/chest with both arms on top of one arm (isolating a weapon) and judo style side control doing the same thing.
I think this is more of a personal opinion than a comment about the video but whatever I remember this techniques that I was thaught unarmed but they make way more sense when weapons are involved, I am just sharing my epyphany.
Dope song
I'm curious if switching to an americana grip from the two on one controlling the gun would allow you to keep the gun pointed away from you and give you the option of either falling forward to an old school judo style armbar or twisting the arm backwards for the shoulder lock
That song brought tears to my eyes what a masterpiece.
TDI knife in a nice fast belt sheath for weapon retention a nice little bonus. Id like to know what Mike thinks of that… I carry one and practice with my left hand a lot. I figure the right is going to be busy trying to keep my primary. Im old and don’t punch so well from injuries. That little sharp knife hopefully will level the field a bit.
It's been my philosophy for a long time that trying to take a gun away is less effective than trying to incapacitate your enemy. If you're going to take the risk of engaging an enemy armed with a gun then it's reasonable to assume that you've determined there is no safe alternative where you walk away from this event. That being said, wrestling for a firearm still presents a huge chance of you being killed anyways so I personally would try to create a distraction to get the enemies eyes and attention off me and utilize that opportunity to kill/incapacitate them with in a very quick and violent manner i.e. you get them to look away briefly and you head kick them into another realm, or slam them with a takedown or draw a pocket knife and stab them in the heart or base of the skull. I mean you've got a similarly slim chance of pulling that off as you would actually disarming them. That's just my 2 cents. It's still all predicated on the unlikely chance that a significant enough distraction presents itself or if you're even capable of knocking someone out with one punch/kick/slam etc...
I need the full song on spotify!
Alot of people also don't realize the psychological disruption of the person SHOOTING the gun at any point....fighting over the gun or grappling with them. Not letting go, panicking, flinching is hard for most people to do and that can get you killed. I don't know this first hand but unfortunately from watching many many videos of real robberies and situations involving guns. People panic and let go of the gun or the attackers arms, flinch and give up position...panic turn and run..etc etc.
Drill like in this video but just imagine a cannon going off randomly right beside your hand/body at any point........Don't know how you can prep for that short of training with a gun with loud blanks.