Is The Sun really dimming in Frostpunk?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In Frostpunk there are two log entires that suggest that the sun is dimming and that atmospheric aerosols shouldnt be enough to cause the global winter; in this video we will be covering how this might be possible and the flaws in these theories
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I mean, snowball earth existed, if enough of the planet is covered in snow and ice, it reflects more light meaning it gets colder.
It could be that they observed a REALLY bad solar minimun, that + vulcano + whatever else leading to a feedback loop. even after the suns back to normal
Snowball Earth was so long ago that Sun was really quite dimmer so losing CO2 from atmosphere (by new life nomnoming it) could cause such dramatic outcomes.
For Frostpunk I think it's that combo yes. Worst possible stellar minimum plus major volcanic eruptions and astroid impacts, and if you really want to be mean add entire Solar System drifting into a more dustier zone of the Galaxy.
For context, I read somewhere a nice article that before radioactivity was described by Marie Skłodowska-Curie, the only known source of heat and light were chemical reactions. On the other hand amounts of fossil fuels indicated that Earth was more lush and hotter in the past. That led to an idea that sun was getting colder and would eventually literally burn up its fuel. Radioactivity changed entire worldview in that regard, moving aging of the sun into a timescale that is much more optimistic for humanity. I guessed authors of Frostpunk just built the story on the ideas from victorian era before discovery of radioactive decay and processes. Fictional worlds are great playgrounds for scientific reasoning though and this one was awesome 👍
Im no scientist, but i keep up with the news and...i thought we had fusion reactors, the issue wasnt heat and pressure but efficiency, being able to get more energy out than what is put in. I mean, if heat and pressure were the issue fusion would have been a problem too
Laser fusion experiments use deuterium and tritium but those only exist in trace levels so coupled with the massive resource and energy investment its very inefficient; this is similar to brown dwarf stars which aren't big enough to fuse elemental hydrogen but can fuse deuterium
While main sequence stars have the power to fuse elemental hydrogen into deuterium and helium by itself
Kind of. The big issue with fusion reactors is not that we cannot fuse as well as the sun but rather we can di fusion reactors even stable ones far far better than the sun it is just that the sun actually prices an incredibly small amount of power per volume/mass so even though we have been able to do hundreds of times better than the sun in terms of fusion density for decadrs the energy output is still small enough to not be a viable power source we use deuterium and other easier elements to fuse to ease that increased power density. We are again able to do hundreds if not thousands of times better than the sun in terms of energy density it is just that the sun is not efficient ancient and colossal that causes it's immense energy output and we need to do far better for it to become a practical power source on earth.
The thing about heat and pressure is it's not that we cant contain it, it's that we cant make it. The sun cheats fusion because it's so increasingly massive that everything is so close together that it doesn't nearly need to heat up as much as it would be on earth.
That's right. We have loads of fusion reactors that accomplish fusion all the time, but only the national ignition facility has gotten more energy out than in and it's only a research facility that isn't even focused on energy production for the grid. Progress is mostly limited by how long it takes to build fusion reactors to test new techniques and technology. This task does require machines that outperform stars, but we already far exceed the core temperatures of stars since we can't come close on the pressure.
@@Rose_Harmonic Nobody is going to build fusion plants when there is no concept for nuclear fusion that produces more energy than that is put into it.
As others have said, the main problem is with keeping up the high temperature and the magnetic fields to keep the plasma confined.
I always thought it was due to volcanos coating the atmosphere with a layer af ash that made it so less heat got through
it would work if not for the fact that sunlight still appears in the game and plants in hothouses use it to grow
@@Sewexan but it doesn't all need to be evenly spread out there might be vast areas of the world where there is no light but the layer around Antarctica is only minor so light can still get through and people can survive but still only just.
This has happened in real life. There was an event called the Year without Summer in 1816 where global temperatures dropped because of major volcanic eruptions. However, volcanic winters are usually short lived. Their effects last a couple of years at most, not decades. They also have never caused temperatures to drop as low as Frostpunk (during the great storm, the temperatures were low enough to theoretically freeze the gases in the atmosphere). Even nuclear winters, a similar but more severe effect that could be caused by substantial amounts of nuclear explosions, would likely only last for maybe 20 years at the absolute worst.
@@lazuliartz1296 in this case it was a lot worse
I thought It was that a toba-like supervolcano eruption caused a chain reaction on the whole ring of fire that at least should make a snowball earth for at least 100 years. But I'm not a scientist
There's also galactic dust. The solar system oscillates up and down through the galactic disc, so it's feasible to consider that it sometimes travels through "thicker" parts of the galaxy, and that "thickness" - the ambient dust and gas that eventually accumulates to create new stars - could become a bit of a fog between the earth and the sun. Some speculate on this as part of the cause for the various incidents of "Snowball Earth" in the distant past.
So rather than the simple comet theory from the video, the idea would be an interstellar fog, some remnants of which might manifest as meteors that strike the Earth, but mostly would just cause a general dimming of the sun. It would also last a _very_ long time.
Although the volcano theory also works. The first Frostpunk was set in 1887, and Krakatoa erupted in 1883. If Krakatoa triggered some additional volcanoes (similar to the volcanoes that helped finish off the dinosaurs after the meteor impact), that degree of atmospheric ash could easily cause a global cooling.
I'd support this theory its reasonable and concise but the crazy theories are still fun to read
Interstellar dust is pushed away by Solar Wind. For galactic dust to appear within the Solar system it would have to coincide with the Sun suddenly radically decreasing its energy output, cooling off as well, which is highly unlikely to happen with main sequence stars.
If we were to speed up time, the only thing that we would notice is our sky changing, but only focusing on our Solar system, we wouldn't notice anything, as the Sun will keep burning and its winds will keep the Solar system dominated by stellar matter, rather than interstellar.
Meteors would have to have already existed, they would be too close to form.
The only major influence going through the Galactic disk would have is there being different gravitational pulls, which would manifest in orbital perturbations at most.
There are historical records of periods of unusually warm weather in ages prior to industrialization followed by periods of colder than normal temperatures for extended periods of time.
We also have records of unusually colder temperatures that coincide with "solar minimums.". Two particular sonar minimums that have been studied in the past were the Dalton and Maurander minimums. The latter occurred in the 1400's and is somewhat well documented as it coincided with an extended period of far lower than normal sunspot activity (as recorded by Chinese records). This minimum was so severe that we have records from London when people celebrated an ice festival because the Thames river froze completely solid.
The festival was held in AUGUST.
This short got me thinking of the movie Sunshine.
One thing I did notice is during one of the Frostland expeditions is the mention of splitting atoms (You can find a entry log during a doomed expedition). Makes me wonder if Oppenheimer or Einstein (Or their equivalent) will play a part in a DLC or Third game.
There is the theoretical idea of “poisoning” a star with large amounts of heavy elements. At a certain point, it takes more energy to fuse elements than is released. This is what happens at the end of a star’s life. So if a particularly large exosolar asteroid made of lead and uranium (perhaps from the core of a dead star?) were to intersect the sun, it might disrupt core fusion enough to reduce its output.
This was actually one of the ideas that I had tossed around since Iron is when fusion stops yielding energy but any heavier than that and fission starts working, some types of hybrid nuclear reactions uses the neutrons from fusion to cause fission of uranium or plutonium; even if it a bunch of iron was dumped in the Sun's core, fusion could still work in an onion ring around the iron, this is what happens prior to helium fusion in main sequence stars, and all it would do is add more mass to the star
If it was hit with enough mass of iron it could cause the core to collapse and cause a supernova which is kind of the opposite reaction we're looking for
Basically it would require some magic to completely replace the composition Sun's core without changing its mass in order to stop it from working
@@RoninFoxSpeaks Well, fission is significantly less energetic than fusion. Heavy elements would sink to the core, where the pressure is greatest, making it harder for the lighter elements to be squished together enough to fuse. Any fission happening would be negligable compared to lost fusion. We only want to lose a few percent of output, after all.
Honestly I think the devs don’t have an explanation at all, they just magicked up the situation. 😛
"Core of a dead star", would be a white dwarf, that would still glow and be definitely visible if it were to collide with the Sun. It would also highly likely cause a nova or several novae that would cause a lot of the Sun's envelope to be lost, and life on Earth would definitely be extinct at that point. (not due to cooling, but due to roasting)
Meanwhile as for the Sun, our Sun is still getting hotter, until it reaches around 8-9 bln years. This is due to the core getting heavier and more dense, increasing fusion efficiency.
Only afterwards these heavy elements start to act like poison and the fusion efficiency slightly decreases. It still remains high until the star leaves its main sequence, where it stops its fusion due to a lack of material within the core and no other areas being hot enough to do fusion.
Even with a somewhat massive meteor the contents of it would eventually get to the core, but it would take an extremely long time, with a significant chunk of it being probably blasted away again as well.
Its kinda like in Nine Sols, the fusang used solar energy to power the island but it enveloped the sun and plunged the Earth into an ice age
The whole game reminds me of the year without summer but on way bigger scale and due to the earth becoming a snowball it reflected way more light causing the temperature to be low but stable
i thought it was because a super volcanoes erupted the after effect caused a super cooling of the planet, very likely leading to a ice age we get to live through in game
Huh, interesting theory! I had never thought of this before, thanks for making a video explaining it!
A thiught i had was if the frospunj universe took place on an older earth which is the reason for the ludicrously abundant coal literally everywhere before mining started and as a result the frost is a result of the uranium and so on decaying less and less in the planet menaing less heat.
Another out-there theory is that earth has been dislodged from its orbit and is slowly moving away from the sun.
The games always reminded me of Snowpiercer. Although in that movie the world's froze because a chemical was sprayed into the atmosphere to cool the planet down and it worked too well
The original novel of Snowpiercer was French" Le Transperceneige" so the big French train in The Last Autumn DLC "Crève-neige" is most likely a nod to an inspiration of the game
I recall frostpunk having lots of volcanic activity which could have initally caused it my other thought is that steam cores generate impossible amounts of energy given there fuel supply and even appear to not actually require fuel given that we have cases of automatons runnign continuosuly walking in circles for years without refuel and in sorm cases remaing functional. As well as stuff like the wall drill not taking any fuel.
I wonder if the explanation for the cooling is just that whatever magic powers the steam cores pulled the power from ambient heat or something.
The other thought is the volcanic activity awoke some kind of storm monster or something since by frostpunk 2 we have whiteout storms lasting month which are far colder than a normal seasonal shift in temperature ~60° despite being unrelated to seaosn or time of year and it is an even greater relative shift whne you remember that the temperatuees in frostpunk are a bit closer to absolute zero so it is a larger relative drop in energy.
I really like the research done for this video
I honestly think not even the authors know the cause, just like in the tv series "LOST" they made up the mystery first and have no idea on how the solution will look like.
If I had to guess I would say something on Earth itself, maybe someone was trying to make a doomsday weapon and it went wrong.
huh i thought they mentioned a close miss on earth causing us to move farther and father away from the sun
Well, frostpunk was coal, frostpunk 2 oil, I think frostpunk 3 will be fission
Bro we are a couple months from 2025 can we get more updated maps when you talk about it and use real world grafts as an sample.
Also FP 2 video please.
Oh a dyson sphere can increase the suns life but it will increase the heat so earth would get hot or to hot to live.
Cold air is more dense and smoke and co2 gets stuck lower to the ground so maybe all the smoke from all the burning is increasing the effect by reducing the sunlight.
for some reason i thought the earth got pushed further from the sun
Personally i think it would have been a perfect storm as eruptions are mentioned in a few of the events and if the sun ejected a small amount away from the visible section of it a by just enough that it is now just a little bit cooler along with a massive amount of volcanic ash and other substances from either a few volcanos or a lot of volcanos ( one may have triggered another) cooling the planet although considering that robots exist that are steam powered it is safe to say that it uses a slightly different physics system than our universe
There is also the potential that the great storm sucked some carbon out of the atmosphere and allowed for more cooling
For reference my headcannon is this
Volcano goes off cools it down and then the greenhouse effects help lock it down, the snow acting as a insulator for a the CO2 “hail”
@SteamPower-kr6ui that's actually not crazy for one thing co2 condensation point is at -78C but the thing is that the most abundant ghg is actually water which would condense out of the air, form clouds and ice which would reflect light causing cooling instead
the temperature is the same in the entire planet.
unless the sun exploded; it can't make that happen.