@@krultheg3021 Dating back to the hansiatic leagues ,16th century there has been strong ties between sweden denmark and the netherlands , Dutch shipbuilders where in service for the swedish military , where the dutch republic and merchents changed the foundations of sweden and denamark it self . Even sending entire mercenary armys equipment s to aid the swedes and danes. The founder ofthe swedish justice system was a dutch merchant / represntative of the dutch republic . The dutch could import wood mast iron cannons all from sweden at prices that where lower than the swedes had to pay them selfs. Also they where alies against the brits , later dutch shipbuilders provided designs for submarines for the swedish navy . dutch in turn had licenses of producing bofor guns, where sweden would build turrets for the dutch navy , where they used bofor 40mm guns combined with hazemeyer triaxial mounts and radar fire control in the late 30s early 1940s . The same for aircraft where fokker had orders from sweden ( unfortunatly most of them where still under construction before they could be deliverd when ww2 started ) the new dutch cruisers destroyers etc of the 1950s where all suplied with Bofor guns up till the 70s In turn a lot of dutch radar systems whent to sweden . swedish equipment in the dutch militairy is abundent . ranging from armoure vehicles up to considering the aquirements of Saab Grippen aircraft in the early 2000s I left a lot out but there have been strong ties with scandinavia sweden norway denmark and finland for many many years. And with dutch expertise in bleu water long range conventional submarines and swedish expertise with stealthy brown water submarines . they got something special to look forward to .
@@marcusfranconium3392 Thanks alot for your answer man. I knew the Dutch relationship with sweden/denmark is/was good. But i did not know much about the history of it. So again, thanks man. Knowledge is wisdom.
@@krultheg3021 If interested there is an episode of a dutch documentary that explains the Dutch Danish Swedish connection , This is the link. it has english subtitles. The Dutch Golden Age Episode 4 (eng.translation) ruclips.net/video/ayUvsES7RgQ/видео.html
except that it's usually been the Swedes buying Dutch rather than the other way around. Sadly the Dutch government has destroyed the country's industrial base and especially the defense industry over the last 20 years to where we've gone from a technology creator and inventor to a country that has to beg other countries for scraps and handouts... Shipyards, gone. Aviation industry, gone. Electronics industry, gone. Vehicle industry, gone. Weapons/ammunition manufacturing, gone.
@@xaviervavasseur8616 The Chief Editor himself… thanks for the quick reply, highly appreciate that. Also, thx for the video and interviews, it was very interesting as all of your channel work is! 👍 And shame on the TKMS public relations team - how embarrassing is that attitude towards journalists? 🙄🤦🏼♂️ In the end we‘ll get to know the details anyway - this is the time of the internet 😂🤣😂 All the best for you and your team, Monsieur Vavasseur. Greetings from Germany, KD
2 года назад+1
Well played TKMS. Beeing nice doesnt cost anything.
TKMS was already a none contender.. just as naval . the dutch would never accept german managment systems . when they build their own . Out of all contenders only the dutch have experience and know how of operating bleu water conventional submarines.. And i dont think the german shipyards will be happy if Damen is included in the deal with all those other big naval project already under Damens lead. This tender was a formality , it was already decided DAMEN and SAAB are building the submarines.
@@marcusfranconium3392 The Dutch are also going to build the new German frigates F126, I don't know why the Germans don't want to build Dutch submarines.
@@parmentier7457 Its more that the dutch dont want german submarines as they build them them selfs . and have for the past 120 years . Sweden and Netherlands have a long standing relation dating back centuries. . Dutch conventional submarines like the walrus class are the only true bleu water /expeditionary attack submarines that humiliated the americans on multiple ocasions. as they are ultra quite and tons of experience so much so that the dutch provide training for officers on conventional submarines. Swedish submarines are highly advanced with new AIP and several other inovations Combining both makes a lot of sense . Bringing Bleu water expertise and inovations to Saab and Bringing Saabs know how on AIP and invovations to Damen . Germans and Dutch have a bit of a history , well worth a read . Look up IVS/Inkavos and you get an idea .
Interesting report Xavier, did Naval Group also have information at their stand on the Scorpene class? From what i understand those were on the dutch shortlist in an ealier stage as well, even though their size would make them less capable then current walrus boats. Personally, after hearing the news that due to the walrus replacement slipping back further and further, our navy will be taking first one, and then a second boat out of commission to use for parts to keep the other two running until replacements are ready, my first reaction was "buy two scorpenes NOW to keep the fleet size at at least 4 boats, until the diesel baracudas arrive, at which point we can have a 6 sub fleet, the baracudas as full capacity long range subs, the scorpenes for closer to home duties and patrols"
Keep on dreaming! We can not afford French subs. They are way to expensive. And no hope in hell we can afford 6 boats. Besides, the Scorpene subs are simply not good enough.
@@Robert66734 I dont know anything about price, but with regards to the scorpenes, i know they are less capable then the Walrus, or the baracuda, but they would allow the navy to operate 4 subs (2 walrus, 2 scorps) until the proper walrus replacement comes along, preserving crew and training. And while they might not be able to cover all of the walrus' duties, some scheduling could mitigate that, and it would still be better then operating just 2-3 walrusses As for prices, your guess would be the baracuda is to expensive, so we will end up buying either the 212CD or the Saab-damen boat?
@@Verhagenvictor The Netherlands can't afford these French boats. They are way to expensive! Just look at the cost of the Attack class of submarines for Australia (now cancelled). Cost=A$89.7 billion (2020) for twelve units + TOT!! That is more than A$ 7.5 billion (E 5,- billion) for one submarine! The total budget of the Walrus replacement program is E 4,5 billion for 4 boats! Add to this another E 2 billion for the Scorpene and the navy is bankrupt No hope in hell this is going to work! Besides it is going to be a logistical and financial nightmare to have three types (Scorpene, Walrus and Baracuda) of submarines. The tKMS boat is a lot cheaper, they just sold 6 x 212CD submarines to the Norwegian and German navy for $ 5,2 billion. That is $ 866 million per boat!! Allthough the Dutch version will probably be longer and might be equiped with a VLS for Tomahawk cruise missiles. However the price of this submarine will probably not exceed $ 1.1 billion. This version will probably be the same as the Israeli Dolphin III class. The French won't be able to match this price. But it is far more likely that the Dutch navy will buy the Swedisch Bleckinge (A26) class.
@N Fels The biggest problem with the German submarines is that so far they have only built boats with 1 compartment, unlike the Walrus class which has three! These multiple compartments give a better chance of survival for the crew during war situations and are also necessary if you work with divers a lot. It is also necessary if these submarines are going to be equipped with a VLS. Another problem (including that of the Swedish A26) is diving depth. The Walrus has a diving depth of over 300m. It remains to be seen whether both the 212CD-E and the A-26 can do this. This part speaks in favor of the French Baracuda which can dive as deep as the Walrus. Another important aspect is that the 212CD-E only has two diesel engines. The Walrus and the A-26 have three. For long operations it is clearly an advantage to have three. Also these boats need to be configured for these long voyages. The Russians use the same acoustic detection equipment as NATO. They simply made a copy of this, that they are worse at acoustic detection is an assumption, which is not correct. You are right when it comes to the Scorpene, this is not a serious option for the Dutch navy. Politicians are the problem! Also the ones you speak to! They do not have a clue whatsoever. We have had incompetent politicians from the CDA and the VVD in these positions for many years. They have introduced a 5 layer decision making team to make a choice which submarine they will eventually purchase. These 5 layers mainly consist of government officials and accountants from EY.
@@NavalNews its probably sensitive as the germans already know the contract goes to Damen SAAB. . and Damen did hijack the lead contractor for the german shipyards. . Naval is a none contender as well . if you got a nation that uses conventional submarines and are the only ones that are bleu water attack submarine. with expeditionary capabilities . a hightly developed tech and inovation see Thales Nehterlands or Holland signaal how some still call it. sewaco and THE training facilities for submarine commanders and officers of conventional submarines. Ehm yes . France and germany are out .
@@jetaddicted not so small 2000 tonnes at least. also tomahawk is standard 533mm tube anyway so yeah pretty sure its possible to use cruise missiles on each of those subs
@@briananthony4044 But the naval dude just spoke about "SSN" and "long range". I am pretty sure he was talking about the standart (nuclear) Sufren class Brracudas.
@@maxcyber He was referring the SSN Sufren class as the basis for the proposal. But it would be a diesel electric version, similar to the Attack class the Australians were going to purchase, which was based also on the Barracuda. They would basically remove the section containing the reactor, turbo generators, condensers etc and replace with a section containing diesel electric generators. The Barracuda is driven by an electric motor as was it's predecessor, the Rubis class, so it doesn't care where it's power is coming from. One big change is finding space for diesel fuel and battery packs in the design.
@@briananthony4044 You're right. I don't get why he would talk so much about nuclear ones when the offer is about diesel ones. Maybe they want to avoid what happened in the australian press (LIke "If you want nuclear ones, just ask").
so naval group are offering the sub they were desigining for Australia a diesel baracuda and have the hide to ask Australia for compensation hope the dutch realise they simply didn't deliver
More the problem of Australia changing their mind with out any knowledge on development times and costs going with it .. Australia i want your submarine but with out the nuclear power plant. is that posible yes its posible meaning redisigning an entire new submarine that takes time and money , but that is the australians genetic defective thinking they inherited of the english . the dutch always build their own submarines . As their own goverment is to stupid to understand the basics of a submarine.
They didn’t deliver, because Australia changed their mind I really don’t see what’s so mind blowing about that. As for the compensation it was written in the contract from the start, naval group didn’t really even need to ask anything Australia knew they would have to pay.
What miss opportunities but Naval Group we’re dragging their feet, interesting is weapons n sensors fit out is different to Australia version which another sticking point in the process especially sonar was USA version from Virginia class submarines.
@@frogfichtrlustr369 Correct , and australia has become a untrustworthy country with ordering and backing out as they did it a few times before ordering modified versions of existing designs signing a contract and backing out a few months later . There is no chance any nation and EU nation in particular that will sell any submarines or other high value assets.
nonsense. There is ALWAYS a need for crews. Especially for the missions the Dutch submarine force specialises in, which is support and deployment of special forces. A drone is all good and well if you know the exact mission profile in advance and can program everything in great detail, so all it has to do is follow the programming. Once things go outside the program though, a drone is useless. Even if it has some level of autonomy (which a submarine drone would need) it'll be utterly predictable and slow to react as compared to a manned vessel.
The swedish and dutch always had great cooperations with for the past several hundred years. Its more than natural that sweden and dutch team up .
For the past several hundred years? Could you explain?
@@krultheg3021 Dating back to the hansiatic leagues ,16th century there has been strong ties between sweden denmark and the netherlands , Dutch shipbuilders where in service for the swedish military , where the dutch republic and merchents changed the foundations of sweden and denamark it self . Even sending entire mercenary armys equipment s to aid the swedes and danes. The founder ofthe swedish justice system was a dutch merchant / represntative of the dutch republic .
The dutch could import wood mast iron cannons all from sweden at prices that where lower than the swedes had to pay them selfs.
Also they where alies against the brits , later dutch shipbuilders provided designs for submarines for the swedish navy . dutch in turn had licenses of producing bofor guns, where sweden would build turrets for the dutch navy , where they used bofor 40mm guns combined with hazemeyer triaxial mounts and radar fire control in the late 30s early 1940s .
The same for aircraft where fokker had orders from sweden ( unfortunatly most of them where still under construction before they could be deliverd when ww2 started )
the new dutch cruisers destroyers etc of the 1950s where all suplied with Bofor guns up till the 70s In turn a lot of dutch radar systems whent to sweden . swedish equipment in the dutch militairy is abundent . ranging from armoure vehicles up to considering the aquirements of Saab Grippen aircraft in the early 2000s
I left a lot out but there have been strong ties with scandinavia sweden norway denmark and finland for many many years.
And with dutch expertise in bleu water long range conventional submarines and swedish expertise with stealthy brown water submarines . they got something special to look forward to .
@@marcusfranconium3392 Thanks alot for your answer man. I knew the Dutch relationship with sweden/denmark is/was good. But i did not know much about the history of it. So again, thanks man. Knowledge is wisdom.
@@krultheg3021 If interested there is an episode of a dutch documentary that explains the Dutch Danish Swedish connection ,
This is the link. it has english subtitles.
The Dutch Golden Age Episode 4 (eng.translation)
ruclips.net/video/ayUvsES7RgQ/видео.html
except that it's usually been the Swedes buying Dutch rather than the other way around.
Sadly the Dutch government has destroyed the country's industrial base and especially the defense industry over the last 20 years to where we've gone from a technology creator and inventor to a country that has to beg other countries for scraps and handouts...
Shipyards, gone.
Aviation industry, gone.
Electronics industry, gone.
Vehicle industry, gone.
Weapons/ammunition manufacturing, gone.
Was that… crown princess Victoria at the beginning shortly after Frederik‘s introduction? 🤔
Good eye 👍 I can confirm it was her
@@xaviervavasseur8616 The Chief Editor himself… thanks for the quick reply, highly appreciate that. Also, thx for the video and interviews, it was very interesting as all of your channel work is! 👍 And shame on the TKMS public relations team - how embarrassing is that attitude towards journalists? 🙄🤦🏼♂️ In the end we‘ll get to know the details anyway - this is the time of the internet 😂🤣😂 All the best for you and your team, Monsieur Vavasseur. Greetings from Germany, KD
Well played TKMS. Beeing nice doesnt cost anything.
TKMS was already a none contender.. just as naval . the dutch would never accept german managment systems . when they build their own . Out of all contenders only the dutch have experience and know how of operating bleu water conventional submarines..
And i dont think the german shipyards will be happy if Damen is included in the deal with all those other big naval project already under Damens lead.
This tender was a formality , it was already decided DAMEN and SAAB are building the submarines.
@@marcusfranconium3392 The Dutch are also going to build the new German frigates F126, I don't know why the Germans don't want to build Dutch submarines.
@@parmentier7457 Its more that the dutch dont want german submarines as they build them them selfs . and have for the past 120 years . Sweden and Netherlands have a long standing relation dating back centuries. . Dutch conventional submarines like the walrus class are the only true bleu water /expeditionary attack submarines that humiliated the americans on multiple ocasions. as they are ultra quite and tons of experience so much so that the dutch provide training for officers on conventional submarines.
Swedish submarines are highly advanced with new AIP and several other inovations
Combining both makes a lot of sense . Bringing Bleu water expertise and inovations to Saab and Bringing Saabs know how on AIP and invovations to Damen .
Germans and Dutch have a bit of a history , well worth a read . Look up IVS/Inkavos and you get an idea .
@@parmentier7457 But the F126 are build in Germany at Blohm+Voss by Damen.
Les boches et leur légendaire gentillesse...
Interesting report Xavier, did Naval Group also have information at their stand on the Scorpene class? From what i understand those were on the dutch shortlist in an ealier stage as well, even though their size would make them less capable then current walrus boats.
Personally, after hearing the news that due to the walrus replacement slipping back further and further, our navy will be taking first one, and then a second boat out of commission to use for parts to keep the other two running until replacements are ready, my first reaction was "buy two scorpenes NOW to keep the fleet size at at least 4 boats, until the diesel baracudas arrive, at which point we can have a 6 sub fleet, the baracudas as full capacity long range subs, the scorpenes for closer to home duties and patrols"
Keep on dreaming! We can not afford French subs. They are way to expensive. And no hope in hell we can afford 6 boats. Besides, the Scorpene subs are simply not good enough.
@@Robert66734 I dont know anything about price, but with regards to the scorpenes, i know they are less capable then the Walrus, or the baracuda, but they would allow the navy to operate 4 subs (2 walrus, 2 scorps) until the proper walrus replacement comes along, preserving crew and training. And while they might not be able to cover all of the walrus' duties, some scheduling could mitigate that, and it would still be better then operating just 2-3 walrusses
As for prices, your guess would be the baracuda is to expensive, so we will end up buying either the 212CD or the Saab-damen boat?
@@Verhagenvictor The Netherlands can't afford these French boats. They are way to expensive! Just look at the cost of the Attack class of submarines for Australia (now cancelled). Cost=A$89.7 billion (2020) for twelve units + TOT!! That is more than A$ 7.5 billion (E 5,- billion) for one submarine! The total budget of the Walrus replacement program is E 4,5 billion for 4 boats! Add to this another E 2 billion for the Scorpene and the navy is bankrupt No hope in hell this is going to work! Besides it is going to be a logistical and financial nightmare to have three types (Scorpene, Walrus and Baracuda) of submarines.
The tKMS boat is a lot cheaper, they just sold 6 x 212CD submarines to the Norwegian and German navy for $ 5,2 billion. That is $ 866 million per boat!! Allthough the Dutch version will probably be longer and might be equiped with a VLS for Tomahawk cruise missiles. However the price of this submarine will probably not exceed $ 1.1 billion. This version will probably be the same as the Israeli Dolphin III class. The French won't be able to match this price.
But it is far more likely that the Dutch navy will buy the Swedisch Bleckinge (A26) class.
@N Fels The biggest problem with the German submarines is that so far they have only built boats with 1 compartment, unlike the Walrus class which has three! These multiple compartments give a better chance of survival for the crew during war situations and are also necessary if you work with divers a lot. It is also necessary if these submarines are going to be equipped with a VLS.
Another problem (including that of the Swedish A26) is diving depth. The Walrus has a diving depth of over 300m. It remains to be seen whether both the 212CD-E and the A-26 can do this. This part speaks in favor of the French Baracuda which can dive as deep as the Walrus.
Another important aspect is that the 212CD-E only has two diesel engines. The Walrus and the A-26 have three. For long operations it is clearly an advantage to have three. Also these boats need to be configured for these long voyages.
The Russians use the same acoustic detection equipment as NATO. They simply made a copy of this, that they are worse at acoustic detection is an assumption, which is not correct.
You are right when it comes to the Scorpene, this is not a serious option for the Dutch navy.
Politicians are the problem! Also the ones you speak to! They do not have a clue whatsoever. We have had incompetent politicians from the CDA and the VVD in these positions for many years. They have introduced a 5 layer decision making team to make a choice which submarine they will eventually purchase. These 5 layers mainly consist of government officials and accountants from EY.
How long this submarine can be submerged?
The best replacement is the Eggman class submarine
What did you do to TKMS?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good question...
@@NavalNews its probably sensitive as the germans already know the contract goes to Damen SAAB. . and Damen did hijack the lead contractor for the german shipyards. . Naval is a none contender as well . if you got a nation that uses conventional submarines and are the only ones that are bleu water attack submarine. with expeditionary capabilities . a hightly developed tech and inovation see Thales Nehterlands or Holland signaal how some still call it. sewaco and THE training facilities for submarine commanders and officers of conventional submarines.
Ehm yes . France and germany are out .
I really wonder what you did to TKMS
Does one of the three concepts could have missile like tomahawks onboard? Launch by torpedotubes?
The French one: yes.
The other ones: not sure, don’t think so, these are rather small hulls.
@@jetaddicted not so small 2000 tonnes at least. also tomahawk is standard 533mm tube anyway so yeah pretty sure its possible to use cruise missiles on each of those subs
FYI UK Astute launch tomahawk via torpedo tubes
Lol, them Germans be like “talk to the hand…”. 🤚
Uso de drones voadores para informar com precisão onde estão as embarcações inimigas e de fazer estragos nestas embarcações
Seriously, couldnt naval group send at least someone actually able to speak (and understand) english to theses events ?
to bad Australia gave up on thee French subs
They poured money into the DE version of the Barracuda which NG is offering to the Netherlands.
@@briananthony4044 Bottomless pit......
@@briananthony4044 But the naval dude just spoke about "SSN" and "long range". I am pretty sure he was talking about the standart (nuclear) Sufren class Brracudas.
@@maxcyber He was referring the SSN Sufren class as the basis for the proposal. But it would be a diesel electric version, similar to the Attack class the Australians were going to purchase, which was based also on the Barracuda. They would basically remove the section containing the reactor, turbo generators, condensers etc and replace with a section containing diesel electric generators. The Barracuda is driven by an electric motor as was it's predecessor, the Rubis class, so it doesn't care where it's power is coming from. One big change is finding space for diesel fuel and battery packs in the design.
@@briananthony4044 You're right. I don't get why he would talk so much about nuclear ones when the offer is about diesel ones. Maybe they want to avoid what happened in the australian press (LIke "If you want nuclear ones, just ask").
so naval group are offering the sub they were desigining for Australia a diesel baracuda and have the hide to ask Australia for compensation hope the dutch realise they simply didn't deliver
More the problem of Australia changing their mind with out any knowledge on development times and costs going with it .. Australia i want your submarine but with out the nuclear power plant. is that posible yes its posible meaning redisigning an entire new submarine that takes time and money , but that is the australians genetic defective thinking they inherited of the english . the dutch always build their own submarines . As their own goverment is to stupid to understand the basics of a submarine.
They didn’t deliver, because Australia changed their mind I really don’t see what’s so mind blowing about that. As for the compensation it was written in the contract from the start, naval group didn’t really even need to ask anything Australia knew they would have to pay.
@@frogfichtrlustr369 Yeah I don't understand why would naval group be critisized for proposing the same model. I guess it's just French bashing.
What miss opportunities but Naval Group we’re dragging their feet, interesting is weapons n sensors fit out is different to Australia version which another sticking point in the process especially sonar was USA version from Virginia class submarines.
@@frogfichtrlustr369 Correct , and australia has become a untrustworthy country with ordering and backing out as they did it a few times before ordering modified versions of existing designs signing a contract and backing out a few months later .
There is no chance any nation and EU nation in particular that will sell any submarines or other high value assets.
The future of submarine technology is drones. No need to spend a fortune on crewing drones.
Interesting, so many shipyards in Europe...
nonsense. There is ALWAYS a need for crews. Especially for the missions the Dutch submarine force specialises in, which is support and deployment of special forces.
A drone is all good and well if you know the exact mission profile in advance and can program everything in great detail, so all it has to do is follow the programming.
Once things go outside the program though, a drone is useless. Even if it has some level of autonomy (which a submarine drone would need) it'll be utterly predictable and slow to react as compared to a manned vessel.
No.