Instant whole house hot water recirculation system by Watts
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- See blog write up and photo gallery at:
www.toddfun.com...
In this video I install and review an instant whole house hot water recirculation system by Watts. The system is designed to cycle water from your water heater to a select faucet so that you have instant hot water at each faucet. If you pick a faucet that is the farthest from your heater you have a good chance that all your taps will have instant hot water. If that doesn't work you can buy additional temperature controlled crossover valves kits for other faucets that are on different piping routes.
The system cost about $200 for one faucet and $50 for each additional faucet if needed. With the first crossover valve at my kitchen sink my daughter's bathroom sink was also always hot but I had to buy a 2nd crossover valve for the master bathroom being it was on a different piping route.
THANK YOU FOR MAKING FREAKING SENSE AS TO HOW THIS SYSTEM WORKS! I found tons of how to videos but yours was the ONLY one who explained how the bloody thing worked!
+Zteve W Glad to have help. :)
just installed my unit yesterday and i must say that the difference is night and day!!! i only have my unit running in the morning and evening... as i am not home during the day!!! i am very pleased!!!!!! thank you for your video sir !!
Welcome. Let me know how that works over time. Thanks.
I installed my hot water recirculation pump a couple of weeks ago. To work around the timer. I installed a smart plug, sinked to Alexa. Now all I have to do a short time before I want hot water is say Alexa, turn on hot water. Works great.
Nice job!
Great vid. I bought a house that the previous owner had installed a second 50 gallon water heater in the master bedroom closet to serve the master bath. The master is on the opposite end of the house from the garage where the water heater is hence the need for the additional water heater in the master bedroom closet. I was considering an on demand water heater in place of the 50 gallon heater in the closet. I am thrilled to have discovered this nifty device. I can install it and eliminate space robbing heaters in the master closet. This vid is marvelous.
Glad to have helped.
I have wanted one of these systems for over 15 years and I finally got one. I was just looking for a quick video as a reference for installation, but I got so much more. Thank you, and especially on the extra valve option, because when I questioned my local hardware store employee he knew nothing about it and was not sure if it could work on more then one supply. Again thanks for the great informational video.
Joe
+kndrcp Glad to be of help Joe. I have a lot more videos ;)
+Todd Harrison (ToddFun) Just finished the installation. The timer should kick on pretty soon, in fact it should have kicked on about 10 min. ago I'll go check. Thanks again.
GREAT video, first one I've seen that actually provides relevant information AND the other necessary materials available to lower the installation costs. Being in the industrial refrigeration trade I was so fed up with the ignorance of the suppliers and lack of available information from manufactures, I was about to order solenoid valves, determine flow rates/head etc and build my own system. THEN just minutes before I was going to do all this I found your video. 10+ buddy, you nailed it, especially how you graciously provided info and links to the thermostat valves etc. KUDIOS.
Glad to help. I just install one of these a month back in a home in North Dakota because the pipes ran alone an un-insulated external wall to washing machine in a side porch. Instead of trying to insulate a rock wall, not even sure you can, I installed this system so now the water is warm at the washer and at all the sinks in the house. No more frozen pipes!
Thanks Todd, we had a dishwasher repaired yesterday and afterwards the tech suggested a recirculation system. Had never heard of one, but your video cleared it up for us. Looks like we'll be going this route.
+Darrell Poteet Glad to be helpful. Let me know how it works out.
Good video! You mentioned a smart timer. If you set the timer on run and bypass the pump timer and use a smart plug that plugs into the outlet before the pump you can use your phone or even Alexa to start the pump a few minutes before your shower, doing dishes or running the dishwasher. You could say, "Alexa, turn on the water heater for 5 minutes". She will run the pump and shut it off after 5 minutes. That should be enough time to get the hot water to where you need it.
Yes, that would totally work just fine. Good Idea.
I just installed this pump about a month ago. Since the label on the pump does not specifically show the wattage, I connected the pump to my watt meter to see how much power it actually consumes. It is very consistent at about 27 watts (+/- 1 watt). That means it would have to run about 37 hours continuously to consume 1 Kw/h worth of electricity. Using 15 cents per Kw/h as the cost of electricity from the power company, it would cost 9 cents to run the pump constantly for 24 hours. That means if you never shut the pump off, it would add about $2.70 to your monthly electricity bill.
Of course, the hot water that's cooling off in the house pipes will be much more expensive than the cost of electricity to run the pump itself. That's the real incentive to use the timer.
I run my pump through a remote controlled relay (TP-Link Smart Plug Mini) which I control through Wi-Fi via my iPhone app (Kasa). The app allows specific programs to be set as well as a 24 hour countdown timer. I did lower the set temperature on my electric water heater from 140 degrees F to 125 degrees F to offset some of the losses in the pipes.
Greg Sullivan Thanks Greg, that's really good to know.
I had the same idea but use Alexa to start the pump and run it for 5 minutes before a shower or doing dishes by hand or in the dishwasher. Could run it less as well say one minute, that way cold water line doesn't get too warm.
This is a great video that uses data very well to provide proof this system works. You gives the pros and cons very well. I’m out the door to go get mine. I’m also going to get one for my sink in master bathroom. Thanks for your thorough research. Now go ask the company for a check because you convinced me and a whole lot of other people not to waste precious water down the drain. Great job. 👍
Glad it was helpful!
I think the dislikes are plumbers who don't want to lose their upper hand on the knowledge you just gave the world. Thank you! This is a simple project- otherwise I would hire a plumber.
+Jesse Goodier Maybe, most of my dislikes are for too long of a video. ;)
Thanks for this video. I recently became a homeowner, and had never heard of a hot water recirculating system. I was actually considering putting a small supplementary water heater on the end of the house furthest from the main water heater...which is the master bathroom. I hate having to constantly run the shower for several minutes waiting for hot water. I'll definitely get getting one of these systems. This video was very thorough in explaining exactly how this system works, and it seems easy enough to install.
+Chris Miller Glad to help out. Mine install is still running fine and I never wait for hot water anymore. I have the pump set to turn off at 10pm so there has been some late nights when I get in the shower and say "why am I waiting for hot water?" then I remember I have the pump set to stop at 10pm :( Doesn't happen often enough to change the timer.
Thanks much for uploading the video. It's quite intuitive though your talk was a little too long which isn't necessary. Thanks for impressive graphic analyses!
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Ray
in this COVID-19 era, it a must to have hot water instantaneously at every bathroom and every faucet.
Glad it was helpful!
Todd, the only video I've seen that has answered a lot of details about how this thing actually works, and the expected behaviour (i.e. temp output on both lines), thank you! I'm hoping you can help me understand how the pump knows to turn on when the thermostatic valve opens? And does that valve still try to open when the pump is off-and what the consequence of that is?
Pasting an answer to my own question in case this helps anyone, found it on Home depot's site: The pump adds up to 2 PSI to the hot water line. This allows water to pass from the hot water to the cold water through the sensor valve.
When the temperature of the water passing through the valve reaches 95° the sensor valve closes. The pump then idles. It reopens when the water temperature drops to 85°.
By installing the senor valve at the faucet furthest from the water heater it insures all the faucet that connect to the same pipe the feeds the faucet with the sensor valve get hot water in an instant.
When the valve is open and the pump is running the pressure on the cold water side is greater then the pressure coming into the house. This allows the water in your cold water pipe to replace the hot water in leaving the tank. No addition water needs to be drawn from the outside source.
Mostly true. The pump does not idle, as in stop or pauses. It keeps running (trying to pump) using 40 watts which isn't much power really, like a couple old style night lights. What the pump does is cavitates unable to move any water when the crossover valve is closed. I guess you could simplify that description to "it idles" but that seems a bit of a miss for a proper description of what I see the pump doing.
Very impressed with your presentation! Hubby and I have started looking into trying this on our own, and your video helped us to see how really feasible it is! Thanks much!
Laurie Snell Good to know. Let me know how it goes. Mine is still working great and I never have to wait for warm water at my kitchen any more.
Thanks Todd for this informative video. I wish you could talk more in detail about programming the pum. Thanks again
Todd thank you very much for sharing this info resulting saving a wee bit of money. With water shortage in most cities.... this should be mandatory for all households.
Ray Bazan
Penalize people who consume much water and financially reward people who consume little water. People will have the inentive to install these recirculation pumps and collect rain water for the garden and outside cleaning.
Thanks !
I saw a different brand name pump that you can install on your hot water tank or under the sink if you have a power outlet. I wanted to avoid the headache of turning the hot water tank off and on because it is gas. I appreciate your help.
I have that exact issue. I live in Phoenix too. I have to wire in an outlet for it. That’s for posting this!
This is a good idea for keeping hot water and cold water circulating the water around and around your home pipes so that they will not freeze if your home pipes are susceptible to any low temperatures. My solution is a cheap 12 dollar 12 volt water pump hooked to a battery and a simple solar cell charger with a 12 volt timer set to run every ten minutes to circulate the water in each line. I use check valves 3 dollars to keep water from going backwards in the lines. Very nice and very cheap system. I think it amounts to around 42 dollars with a cheap 12 volt battery and simple solar collector charger.
I live in a hot climate as well, insulation still makes a big difference. Just stop the loss of heat from the first runs of pipe and you see a saving. In your case you do need insulation on all exposed hot pipe but this will pay foer itself soon. You will need to insulate the piping under the sink and the thermal valve as well.
Great video. Explained why my cold water is now warm with this system. Only comment is that my pump makes a significant buzzing sound that is really annoying. It is a problem for us, as it is in our garage, where I hang out working on my bikes. And the sound comes through the wall to the bedroom.
Excellent video for 2 reasons: (1) In LA,CA we run our master bath shower about 2 mins to get hot H2O. It pains me that all of that water is wasted. I had been considering diverting preheat to a storage tank and pumping it to our rear lawn and garden. After considering your ~$100/yr estimate I'll have to compare that cost to the saved water cost to see if I should install the demo'd system. it might turn out to be cheaper to just use all of the preheat H2O and the gray water for irrigation. (2) We got to see a nice lab setup.
One thing unclear to me is whether, when the timer says 'pump', the pump runs continuously until the time says 'no pump', regardless of whether the thermal valve is allowing circulation.... In other words, is the pump running deadhead? Or, does a pressure buildup cause it to 'kick out'? Those magnetic drives can get very hot if the pump is stalled, right?
Paul, did you find an answer to this question you asked?
I found an answer on HomeDepot's site. This is an old question, but though this may help someone. The pump adds up to 2 PSI to the hot water line. This allows water to pass from the hot water to the cold water through the sensor valve.
When the temperature of the water passing through the valve reaches 95° the sensor valve closes. The pump then idles. It reopens when the water temperature drops to 85°.
By installing the senor valve at the faucet furthest from the water heater it insures all the faucet that connect to the same pipe the feeds the faucet with the sensor valve get hot water in an instant.
When the valve is open and the pump is running the pressure on the cold water side is greater then the pressure coming into the house. This allows the water in your cold water pipe to replace the hot water in leaving the tank. No addition water needs to be drawn from the outside source.
This video was very thorough... And your detailed results are very informative...
Thanks Todd for the informative video. I was not sure if I wanted to try this system but with your video I am sold. Looking forward to installing the watts recirculating hot water system. 👍
Glad to help. Let me know how you like the install.
Hi Todd. Well I have installed the Watts recirculating system and wonder why I have waited so long to use such a great system. I did have to cut the copper pipe coming out of the hot water heater and sweat on a male threaded end to attach a flex line from the watts pump. My hot water heater is on the third so it takes about 1 1/2 minutes to have hot water on the first floor. Now it takes 15 seconds. Also it improved in all the bathrooms in my condo. The timer was easy to set up but still working on what hours to have it running. Thanks again for a great video. P.S. it gave me a good reason to flush my hot water heater since it is 7 years old now.
@@bayguy900 Nice! I love mine and now that I"m in a place the freezes in the winter and the 100+ year old house isn't insulated I have the added benefit of the pipes not freezing anymore over night.
Great explanation. Very in depth but also very understandable. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Todd, this was a very nicely done video with lots of good information.
+John Whitney Great! Glad to help.
Having warm water on the cold water side was why this system never really caught on with ppl having existing homes. The issues with the timers failing after 5-8 months was the other.
My timers on two are still fine. I see the "warm" water on the cold side but not an issue as I get cold water from the fridge.
Great video and very informative. However, I have to argue the concept of saving for installing this system! Depending on where you live and your life style, you have to consider the cost of the wasted water versus the cost of heating the water continually in the system. As the pump is pulling water from the water heater as the temperture drops down, the water heater is consuming more energy (whether it is electric, gas, or others) to heat up the recirculating water, so are we really saving?
Great video. My only question is about the cost of heating up the slab but you said why you didn't have data on that. We're in the 5F to -5F range outside and our pipes go through the slab too so it takes a while to get hot water (Ottawa, Canada).
:
I agree. Great video
I would recommend re-piping the hot water lines and abandoning the ones in the slab. You got an attic?
would adding pipe insulation to the hot water pipes make this more efficient (by extending the amount of time it takes the hot water in them to cool down when not used)?
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Frank
Great point.
The cold water being pumped back to the water heater will have to be heated again. I wager the gas consumption with this recirculation pump increments.
I prefer a small tankless water heater under the sink to heat up the the few liters of cold water standing inside the hot water pipes.
Todd do what they do in apartment buildings, take a quarter inch copper return line in the attic back to the water heater, eliminating the cold water pipe completely and less energy wasted, in a apartments they have a circulation pump and at the very end it returns back to the water heater, very small return at a trickle would keep it hot all the time.
paul schoaff The pump runs all the time the timer is set to run, even if water at the crossover is cutoff. It does get hot but not enough to cause issues.
I can see that this system would help with freezing pipes if flow is intermittent to keep it from freezing. I have two sinks that are prone to freezing when the temps get low outside.
+Yo Me Yes, it would do that just fine with the bonus of having hot water fast. You would need a cross over at the end of the run which includes the pipes you have problems with freezing, like between the hot/cold of a washer up against a cold wall even though you don't need the hot water 24/7 at the location.
@ 11:57 the transition is flawless!
Yeah. The expansion tank for our heating system (the water that goes around the radiators) vents into a small header tank in the loft.
This header tank drains/overflows into the header tank that feeds the hot water taps, which probably violates quite a lot of building regs.
UK houses are "interesting" both in their creative wiring and creative plumbing.
Since the pump does not need to be on when the hot water is used often, I would ask if having the pump on for the morning then shutting it off and short cycle it every few hours for 15 min to save wear and avoid the warm cold water. Then on again for night before sleep. The timer has quite a few on off settings.
Ithese things work great.. i had mine set for 24 hrs adter setup to test system... it drained my propabe tank..fast.. a lot ofmoney gone...i had to tune it back
Excellent video. I enjoyed it. It is very informative.
Richard Reynolds Glad you enjoyed. Glad to help.
Todd, now that the unit flushed out all the cold water from the cold water line, using it as a hot water return, thus heating up the cold water pipes, don't we now have to wait for the cold water? I don't think Watt's thought this through very well.
Very informative video, thanks. It does really need a wifi based switch, just like you said.
Yes, I agree. But one could get a wifi outlet power strip and use that to control the pump I guess.
Great idea. I would be tempted to hack on a motion sensor so that it will only run when I go near the sink.
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Frank
Great idea
Only problem, you now made your cold water line full of hot water. If you take a shower, the hot water is ready, but you'll need to wait 2 minutes for the hot water inside the cold line to clear out in order to lower the temp of the hot water in the shower.
It's more like 30 seconds, but true about hot water in cold lines.
@@ToddFun
The hot water in the cold faucet can be eliminated with a capacitor water tank of 2 liters just before the faucet.
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The small water tank will stabilize the temperature of the cold lines.
In a sink it is very easy. In the shower it depends on your configuration .
The recircularion valve can be installed 2 meters before the shower and the water in the cold pipes will be be less hot due to the mixing with the cold water in those 2 meters.
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My solution was to installed a small tankless water heater just before the shower.
@@ToddFun :
Mr Harrison:
You should build self-heating flexible water pipes. An electrical resistance can be used or an induction system. If the pipes are made of steel or iron, the induction system can heat the metal and then heating up the water. The device will work on pipes buried inside the walls and floors.
The problem with the recirculation pump is that you have to heat some of the water twice. The cost of water is much smaller than the cost of natural gas.
Agree, in Belgium neither. Circulationpumps yes (but not common in houses, for buildings sometimes), but not (and never) with a valve, i never saw here. Wouldn't work, even if you tried, the water system is divided, a pipe for each use. But yeach, is interesting to see.
Thank you, Todd! Your information was very helpful.
James Allen Glad to help.
8:27 - Ovaries!
12:00 - Todd Hanks in "Cast Away" cosplay!
Welcome back. Very useful video: It take a good 2-3 minutes for the shower to come up to temp so I'm definitely going to check this out. Those on-demand tankless systems are way too expensive and we don't have room under the sink for that tank you had so this in a great compromise.
The pump does not double the pressure in the pipes. If you had 160 psi at the faucet, you couldn't hold your hand under the water. And, the pressure relief valve on the water heater would pop. T&P valves are set at 130 to 150 psi - that their "pop-off" pressure... As you approach the rated pressure, they will drip then dribble then squirt and then fill your basement with water.
Very well done video. Have you tried to use smart wi-fi outlet instead of build in timer?
No. I just leave mine running 24/7 because it didn't ever seem to cost anything that I notices and I always have hot water. Plus it keeps my pipes from freezing in the winter. Just set it and forget it.
Excellent summary and review thank you!
I have insulated the water cylinder and the piping leading to it so there is less loss. You need to use some zip up Armaflex on yours as well, makes a big difference in energy loss. My problem is now the water heats up the pipe to the cold tap, but static loss is very much less, money well spent on the roll of insulation and tape. About a 50% saving there just from insulating hot and cold feeds till they go in the wall.
No worries! I haven't shaved in a decade or so: beard trim once every quarter. Haven't had a haircut in as many years. Fortunately, I'm already married. ;)
Hope you feel better soon!
I think you meant to say recirculating system, not recycling system. But thanks for a very informative video, lots of data.
Kevin H Ya, silly mistakes when trying to make videos sometimes.
Great video Todd..
Use check valves to keep water from crossing over or backing up in a main one way line.
Very informative. You show a drop off in hot water temp using pump. Would this be the wrong choice for someone who like long hot showers?
No, your long showers will be just the same. I have not noticed any issues.
They do have the smart circ pumps now that get use to your usage and program themself to your schedule
Interesting. Do you have a link?
Nice review. Would have liked to have seen the installation steps included in the video.
True, but the install wasn't to bad if you have some plumbing experience.
I saved just under $1,000.00 per year in oil ($3.50 per gallon #2 home heating) because I DISCONNECTED my instant hot water circulating pump. I had an old style that allowed hot water, via convection, to travel up to the second floor whether I ran the pump or not. There was no timer involved. I would imagine that this new style pump is much more energy efficient.
Bourne Accident Sounds like a bad install. These Watts system include a return valve cutoff you have to put under a sink that stops all flow when the line temp gets to 95F at that tap. If you don't have this and water can flow constant it would be a huge was of money heating water.
Great video! If only you could set that valve at your own specified temperature and have the valve communicate with the pump for more efficiency. Also, for new construction, you can install a dedicated recirculation line along with the existing hot and cold supply lines. That way you will not have hot water pumping through your cold line, as it will have its own path to take back to the heater.
Interesting idea. It would work I'm sure
But the pump will always be running, electrical bill will be high. As a residential house of 3-4 people, that wouldn’t be cost effective. The Watts has a timer and you set it to run at specific times saving energy
I don't think it would, either. Reverse flow in potable water pipes is generally not permitted. If you want to install a circulation system, then you need to have a dedicated return pipe.
Very good, thorough analysis.
Thanks Chief!
@@ToddFun
in this COVID-19 era, it a must to have hot water instantaneously at every bathroom and every faucet.
would a system like this be ok on a motorhome thats being restoring, picked one up today from a contracter that was retiring that had extra of these so had to pick em up
Awesome Video!!! Grows beard for 30 days to show passage of time!!!
Maybe I was just being lazy. ;)
@@ToddFun No you weren't .... good job!
question: does this help with the shower water as well. I have a medium/low flow shower and it takes a good 3 to 4 minutes to get warm water in the shower
Evelyn Burch It will. For best results put the crossover connection under the sink closes to the shower.
@Redy Temp, The pump itself does not shutdown but being the valve blocks any further flow no more hot water leaves the water heater and the pump just runs in a cyclical motion within itself. Yes the pump is still chewing up electricity but your not heating any extra water during these time. The timer on the pump will keep the pipes around 95F during the day but not at night. After 6 months I have calculated the yearly cost for the pump and extra heated water is ~$100 USD.
But consider that the warmed-cold water is being returned to the water heater so the energy expended is less than that of heating real cold water. When there is no water being used throughout the house, you can consider the hot-water-cold-water loop to be a closed system. Also consider that once the concrete surrounding the pipes is heated, the energy needed to maintain that heated concrete is much less that the energy need to bring it up to temp.
@Redy, there is some, not much, 95F water in the cold water supply because the hot water is pushed past the 95F shutoff valve back through the cold water supply pipes "backwards" and re-enters the water heater again from the cold supply to be heated again. So you see, there is some hot water in your cold lines, however the whole cold supply does not get to 95F. Only the first few feet of the cold supply gets to 95F as the temp drops off quickly when the 95F valve under the sink closes at 95F.
If you have reverse osmosis water filtering system under your kitchen sink, this type of circulation will raise your drinking water temperature to unpleasant. Also your fridge will consume more energy to produce ice and cold water. To me it's more important to have instant cold drinking water than to have instant hot water.
What would happen when the pump is on, as set by timer, and the temperature sensing is closed ?
at 3:09 "valve under your sink will stop the flow and the whole system shuts down" unless that valve has telepathic capabilities I don't see how it can stop the pump. It's my understanding that the valve closes at 95F and opens at 94F. If pumping is continuous wouldn't this mean 94F deg water is near-continuously entering your cold water pipes at the rate convection / heat loss is occuring from pipes buried in foundation of home?
What would happen when the pump is on, as set by timer, and the temperature sensing valve is closed (as there is no temperature difference between the 2 side of that little black tube)?
The pump will continue to run but just not move any water. It will not produce any pressure, just "paddle" really. It is a low wattage pump so when moving water or "paddling" it will not use much more power than an old style incandescent night light.
A few years ago my wife and I were looking into buying a house (East Mesa). One of the houses we looked at, had this system as an option. But I was a little worried about a few things: First there's the hot water in the cold pipes. Second, the pump is doubling the pressure so there's the worry of springing a leak. Then there's the problem of how much lime/calcium is in our water here. Finally I don't like the mechanical clock either (though we don't have DST). So we decided against it.
Would it work with tankless water heaters?
If I understand the mechanics correctly, when the water recirculates back through the cold line, we are then drinking water that has been run through the hot water tank? I have always understood that due the use of decaying aluminum anode rods, water from the hot water tank should not be used for drinking or cooking. Is this safe?
I've seen this comment in most every review of hot water circulation systems I've viewed . I agree it puts some hot water in the cold return line, but how many times have you used water from the hot water line/faucet to fill the coffee maker because you know it's going to take a while for hot water to reach the sink and you want to get a head start on hot water at the sink? How many times have you used actual hot water to make a cup of hot tea? How many times have you used actual hot water to put in a pot/kettle to boil because it will be quicker. Don't think that small amount of hot water in your cold water line would be more significant, if as much.
Great video! Question: Does the pump have to go at the hot water heater, or can it go under the same sink as the bridge valve (or anywhere else in the hot-water line between the heater and the valve)? I would think the location (beginning or end of the same water-line) wouldn't matter where in that line the pump goes, no? Thanks!
I guess it could but the correct way is to put it at the water heater hot out line.
Great video. Anybody knows, if this would work, if I have a water softener?
Did I understand your data correctly? So, it will give you hot water much faster, but will delay you having cold water by many more seconds? You stated that it now takes about 40+ seconds to have cold water?
+Desideratapoem Yes, but it's not too bad at all. I don't really notice as I get cold water from the fridge and anything from the tap is always cold enough for my other needs.
Great video Todd! Thanks
Interesting video. So aren't you heating your slab when it's running? Maybe in Arizona that isn't a big deal?
With the overall higher temp water available (130 instead of 120) can you now set your water heater down 10 degrees and save energy costs? Also: did you compute how much water you save by not running water for 2 min every day on multiple sinks? I'd guess roughly 2 gal per sink, per occasion, or 8 to 10 gallons a day. Maybe 300 gallons a month. Or as we are billed quarterly, as much as 900 gallons per billing cycle. Certainly an exceptional amount, good job!
I didn't compute the water savings but your calcs sound reasonable. We didn't change the temp on our heater. There is some heat lost in the pipes being warmer but remember the cross over pipe under the sink shuts off flow at ~95F so it's not like 120F water is pushing through your pipes all day and also remember I only have the circulating pump set to run at times we are normally home. We did calc that the increase to our gas bill was ~$8 / month.
Thanks for your response Todd. I have a similar situation, in that my master bath is nearly 50 feet from my water heater. I've simply put up with the inconvenience. Thanks to your video, I went to Menards today and bought the Watts recirculation pump and will be installing it shortly. Even without any dramatic savings in water or energy, it should pay for itself in convenience. You've sold me!
Hi Todd. Yet another fascinating vid. I was wondering if you had any issues about previuosly heated water in the cold pipes and whether it was OK for drinking. If I remember correctly here in UK there were recommendations that you shouldn't drink water that has passed through a heating system because it was somehow contaminated.
you should use a food grade STAINLESS STEEL PUMP
Thank you very much for all this information its very helpfull
Douglas Barrios Always glad to share, hope it was helpful. And it is still working great if you wanted to know.
Todd, the manual says to shut off the water heater and to drain the entire heater. Is that really necessary? Thx! (PS: Great vid).
Can this product be used on your hot water heater if you have a water softener already attached? Thanks.
Hi Todd - The manual says to drain the water heater. Does all the water need to be drained or just a few quarts or gallons? I have a huge water heater and don't want to waste more than necessary but rather enough to relieve the pressure and stop the flow prior to installation.
Also, to "drain" the heater, I do the following, right? 1) Turn off the cold water valve, 2) Turn the temp way down, 3) Open the relief valve, 4) Open the hot water valve and drain desired amount, 5) Close drain.
THEN...I can install the recirculating pump, correct?
Thanks for your help! Great video BTW!
Susan Walls Just drain enough so you don't make a mess with all the water that will come out of the pipes you will need to remove. 1 - yes (to the whole house), 2 - no, 3 - no, 4 - yes 5 - yes. Before installing also open cold and hot valves at all outlets to drain what is in the lines. Remember you have to put the new cross over valve and lines under one of your sinks or the circulation system will not work. When done close all hot and cold outlet valves and then open the main valve to your home. If there are no leaks then open all cold and hot outlet valves for a few minutes each to remove air from pipes then close again.
***** Thanks, Todd! Appreciate the help.
***** Hi Todd - finally found time and got brave...only to find a mismatch between the pump size and the hot water outlet from the water heater. Appears the outlet is 1" and the pump is 3/4". Suppose I have to return the pump and give up. I am disappointed!
Any suggestions?
Susan Walls You just need a couple of reducers from 1" to 3/4" Strange your water heater has 1" outlets but your house shouldn't need 1" coming from the water heater anyway. Using reducers to change the size in and out of the pump will not cause any issues with delivery. You just need to get the gender correct and use lots of Teflon tape to seal the threads. I'm not a professional plumber so if you get stumped I'm sure a local plumber would be a lot more help then I could be and the plumber could do the install in under an hour I'm sure.
Will the pump move enough water through a tankless water heater to to the heater on
no
at 2:57 "you now have HOT water in cold water supply" perhaps the result of pump running continuously based only on time-of-day, rather than minimizing pump operations by limiting pump operations based on both time and temperature (cyclic pumping)?
Wouldn't the cold water coming into my refrigerator ice maker and water dispenser be at 88-90 degrees as shown in your chart?
Thanks, clarified what I thought was true.
Thanks Tod this is very good information on hot water circulation issues and I suffer the pain now and think I should invest in it. Can you tell me how much water bill did you save in % aprox. in a month compare to not having the pump ?
I like your workshop background and the nice tools you have perhaps you have more videos on them too or what you do with them.! Thanks
rmwaseem No noticeable change in the water bill. We heat with gas and we seen a $8.33 / month increase to the gas bill. I have a blog with lots of post using gear. www.toddfun.com
That's due to the 'traditional' ways we make hot water in the UK. In my house we have a hot water tank heated by the boiler. The boiler has its own closed loop that runs the radiators and heat exchanger in the tank. The hot water tank is fed from an open header tank in the loft - this is the water that comes out the hot tap, it's been sat in the loft for a few hours/a day then gently warmed up in the hot water tank for a few hours. Drinking this is probably not good.
So the water that goes back to the water heater will go to the cold water supply too right?
Yes, but the cross over closes when the temp gets to ~95 F so then the flow stops which means it takes about 30 seconds to get cold water.
Thank you great info will be installed tomorrow in our house...
EDWARD BADAL Please let me know how it works out. I just installed another cross over under sink in our master bathroom because we remodeled it and I wanted the new shower and sinks in the master to get warm water faster and it worked like a charm.
Determining the faucet the farthest from HW heater question. When I run the kitchen hot water it takes about one minute. Running the hot water from the guest bath takes 35 seconds. Can I use this test to determine that the farthest is the kitchen sink, and that is where I install the bypass valve?
Yes, you could use that as a way to know. Plus, wherever the crossover is will have hot water the fastest being the cross over is only inches away from that tap.
I just purchased a new house and the hot water tank is on the opposite side of the house as all the faucets. What if instead of using the temperature control valve I added a hot water return line (along side the hot water thine in the basement) to prevent hot water from being pushed through the whole system? Granted it's a little more work, though that is how it is normally done on a commercial property.
That will work but you're doing the same thing with two exceptions. 1) you will not have ~95F temp water in the cold lines back to the tank, which is good. 2) you will have a lot more heat lost as the water will always be pushing ~120F temp water through the pipes because you will not have a pinching off valve stopping the flow once the water under the sink reaches ~95F as does the cross over valve does.
I guess you could still put in a cross over valve between the in bound/return lines in your idea then cap off the faucet lines coming out of the cross over. Then you get the added pinch off at ~95F saving all the heat loss that would come from pushing 120F all the time. Even with your ideas you still need a circulating pump coming out of the hot water tank.
All that said it would be easier to just install the Watts system as intended as you need all the components anyway. My cold water gets cold quite fast as cold return doesn't get too warm in whole as the cross over valve pinches off as soon as the in bound hot water gets to ~95F leaving the old lines to cool off quite a while before the cross over valve opens again.
I hope that all helps some.
How’s it working 9 years later? Did you automate it yet?
still working great. I leave it on 24/7 so I never automated it. I do that because I know live in North Dakota in an old house and I don’t want the pipes to freeze. And I like hot water at all my faucets. I installed it here about 4 years ago and it’s still doing fine. It uses very low amount of power, so I just leave it running. I did put a crossover at my washer and dryer unit and I put a crossover at each sink. That way I’m guaranteed to get flow throughout all my pipes.
Well, I trust your data. When the pump is in the on position, it circulates water back to the cold inlet of the tank. So, the proprietary device always lets the water circulate from hot to cold. Is the device a mechanical temperature switch? I don't think it could be because that would deadhead the pump. So, maybe is a check valve with a small bypass(?) Nevertheless, like your review.
It is a temp valve that closes at about 95F. The pump will keep running but doesn't cause issues when the cross over valve is closed as its just a low wattage paddle pump that doesn't care if it can't push water, it just keep paddling.
I forgot to point out, I set the timer to switch on from 6 AM to 10 AM. Any other times that I want to pre-heat the water going to the kitchen, I just switch the pump on from my iPhone. So I don't leave the pump on all day, by accident, I set an off command for every two hours (2 PM, 4 PM, 6 PM, etc). This arrangement seems to be working well so far.
Great video. Extremely informative.
Excellent video address many of my questions. I'd like to install it under the sink furthest away from the hot water tank as there is electricity there already and it would be easier. I've seen other videos for example a Laing Recirculating Pump where it is installed under the sink. Do you see any reason I couldn't or shouldn't?
+David Boyes Not the recommended install. you would have to fasten it to something sold. The pump does make some noise so it might be something you can hear in such an install and the cabinet might act like a speaker box amplifying the pump sounds. you would have to adapter to fit the large input/output to the smaller pipes under the sink. Other than that I don't see why it wouldn't work provided you have the crossover pipe installed correctly.
+Todd Harrison (ToddFun) Todd thanks for the quick response. I think I will try this approach and see if there is the 'speaker box' effect. Perhaps I could suspend it somehow. I'd be using the switched outlet that was for the garburator. I notice in your Fluke reports the system had been on for 3 hours before testing. I'm thinking that the pump would only have to run for a few minutes before it would activate the sensor, does that make sense?
+David Boyes The bypass only lets a small amount of water past at a time until it clamps at its final temp so it depends on how many feet of water lines back to your water heater. For an average sized USA home and if this sink is a ways from your heater then I would guess about 30 minutes to get to clamping temp. Just a guess, you would have to test your install.