Copycat Virgin and Fake Census? (feat. Bart Ehrman) (Lee Strobel Case for Christmas response)
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- Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2021
- Even when he was an atheist, Lee Strobel enjoyed the Christmas season-the gift-giving, holiday parties, and being with friends and family. But after his wife became a Christian, Lee started to investigate the real meaning behind all those nativity scenes he had seen outside of churches. In this four-week study, Lee reveals what he discovered as he sought to separate the holiday from the holy day, the facts from the fantasy, and the truth from the tradition.
In The Case for Christmas, Lee Strobel investigates the story of Jesus' birth and reveals how we can know it is true. He examines the Bible's claim that Jesus was born of a virgin, some of the "puzzles" we find in the Gospel that don’t seem to match up with the historical record, and the great mystery of the incarnation-how Jesus could be both fully God and fully human. Lee shows how the evidence points to the inescapable conclusion that Jesus was who he said he was: the divine Son of God.
Today, Dr Bart Ehrman joins Paulogia to investigate the same... but comes to very different conclusions.
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I just love how they use the "all those nearly identical stories are wrong except that one, which happens to be mine" argument, completely straight faced 😁😂
Those stories that are like our story - well even though they came first that doesn't mean ours isn't the real one I mean, THAT story is made up haha but OUR story no that REALLY happened.
all double standards are bad ... except mine
all special pleading is bad ... and my special pleading is virtuous.
@@stevesmiff7944 indeed!
@@DeconvertedMan ruclips.net/video/915jNmXZ9t8/видео.html
@@Martillito6653 appeals to the bible without showing the bible is true - nothing new there.
So... basically... what I get from these videos is...
Even when Strobel choses *_ALL_* the criteria, comes up with *_ALL_* the counter arguments to attack himself, and makes a veritable army of strawmen. He *_still_* can't make a compelling case.
Right. And how many times did he repeat Fake News?
Only an apologist would bring up the fact that Jesus's birthday was assigned by the church four centuries after his birth as evidence for Christianity
ruclips.net/video/915jNmXZ9t8/видео.html
@@Martillito6653 Baloney baloney baloney. I see you can't do anything more than post a link, which proves nothing other than that you can copy-paste.
Checkmate atheist. 😂
Well, in fairness, it is pretty good evidence for Christianity. It just sucks as evidence that Christianity is right about anything.
No actually it’s pretty well established by critical scholarship.
I love how he's making a case for xtrianity not being a "copycat" and then flat out says: "It wasn't until the 4'th century
that December the 25'th was chosen as the date to celebrate Jesus's birth *in part* , to bring a Christian influence(plagiarized)
to the pagan(AKA people with different views) celebrations of the *Winter Solstice* ". - Lee Strobel
So the whole war on Christmas(modern times) was really the war on the Winter Solstice(originally). Thus making a Christian
Christmas "fake news".
Just let apologists talk and they'll refute themselves.
Yep. Basically, Christian festivals were placed very deliberately on top of pre-existing pagan festivals. The idea, of course, being that the people got to keep their festivals but those festivals would be re-branded (rather tenuously) to now be in celebration of Christian things. So, yes, the supposed "war on Christmas" would just be undoing the Christians' war on the winter solstice :)
@@blatherskite3009 Christmas is literally called Yule because it's the Christian version of the Norse holiday Yule, and all the Christmas tradition/Santa lore is based on Norse beliefs about Odin and Thor!
Apologists are not limited by facts.
Let's not forget Ēostre and the sacred hare... the bunnies had to come from somewhere.
Given that the calendar has changed since then, December 25th isn't even the same day as it was in the 4th century. How does that compute?
Paul is the man apologists should fear more than anyone else. Great video, as usual.
ha ha ha. He uses Bart Ehrman most of the time.
@@isaacleillhikar4566
Most of the time he uses Kant, the consensus, and an approach called logic.
@@isaacleillhikar4566 He doesn't.
@@isaacleillhikar4566 Paulogia tends to use the sources that are used in the video he’s responding to. If he’s responding to WLC, then he will cite WLC’s sources. If it’s a Dr McDowell video, then it’ll be Dr McDowell’s book. Paulogia has also dug deep into theologians from the early twentieth and nineteenth centuries, when dealing with the likes of Dr Mike Licona and Dr Gary Habermas. Additionally, as often as possible, Paulogia will try to get the author to appear, as has been the case with Dr McDowell, Dr Mary Schweitzer, Dr Ehrman, that guy who created “Veggie Tales,” Dr Josh Rasmussen, and even Eric Hovind, among others.
If you only watch Paulogia’s videos that mention Bart Ehrman, then it’ll seem like he’s Paulogia’s only source.
@@kai_plays_khomus My point is, Bart Ehrman isn't really a reliable basis.
ruclips.net/video/J4akoYZy0LE/видео.html
Thats just about what he says about the documents of the Bible surviving preservation.
He's just as bad with other questions.
I love how Christians turn the date around as a give to the pagans. Christianity couldn't shut the pagans down so they had no choice but to pick a day they were already celebrating to try to Christ-wash it.
Not quite but also not far.
Christ-wash. NICE.
Yes, the crusade to “Put the ‘Christ’ back in Christmas is so hypocritical!”
@4.00 Bart Ehrman comes on the scene, giggling like a girl. He presents that Jesus could not have been born at Matthews 5 BC. because Quirinius was not governor of Syria until 6AD. Then Bart @6.00 defends the copycat theory of the birth of Jesus and he uses the spurious gospel of James to support the similarity of Mithras who came from a cave. Bart has become a giggling dis grace to scholarship.
Quirinius WAS FIRST governor of Syria when Jesus was born, implying that he was governor more than once. And this is what we find. That as a general of Roman armies, he became co-gov temporarily for the purpose of an oft necessary military presence, while the census was in process.
Then on the MIthra copy cat theory, 1. the enemies of God are demonic and Satan seek counterfeit the works of God both a. before by reading the prophecies and b. after by watching the events unfold and even then 2. the counterfeits are not even close to the actually historical events and 3. those solid events cannot be copycated, because they actually occrred on a public stage.
ruclips.net/video/KGuhfZubqJM/видео.html
I could go on but yall dont really want to hear the truth, you want tio justify your evil and perhaps even argue that u dont deserve hell at the judgment, bc you didnt have enough evidence.
@@j919or You haven't brought any truth or evidence. Just a fallacious attempt at a rebuttal, and logically absurd ideas of heaven/hell.
2:40
I was one of those who pointed out the census issue on your first video and I'm glad Bart addressed it.; And I really like the point - why would the Romans have the Jews go back to the home of David, as opposed to anyone else? David wasn't part of the Roman empire, and so why would they care? David is obviously a big deal for the Hebrews, but not the Romans.
Good point.
No roman Empire wide census took place at the time. No one has to move where relatives centuries ago lived. It is one of the many fantasy elements in the Bible stories.
@@TorianTammas Having grown up in a Southern Baptist family where the bible is the _INERRANT WORD OF GOD_ ....I've seen some *MAJOR* mental gymnastics by christians to explain this.
@@thedude0000 - Thank you for the insight. It is sometimes hard to think in such gymnastics.
I mean, does he not know how censuses work? Why would they require you to register in a place where you DON'T live? The whole point of a census is to figure out where people DO live.
Especially since the census of Quirinius was to establish the tax rate in Judea since the Romans were taking over direct administration after the removal of Herod Archeleus. How would this go in real life? "OK, Joseph, I see that you are a carpenter. Where is your shop? Nazareth, in Galilee? Where Herod Antipas rules, and you pay taxes to him? Go away, you are wasting my time." It is so stupid.
@@bludfyre you now know what real life was 2k yrs ago?
@@j919or No, but human nature (and bureaucracy) has not changed that much since the time of the Roman Empire. I expect most people from that time, after getting acclimated to modern technology, would just seem like a tourist from another country, rather than some alien visitor from another planet.
Now, I do know enough from Josephus and Florus the purpose of the census and life of Quirinius to know that 6 CE for the census is a pretty certain date, without apologetic wiggle room.
@@bludfyre human nature changes and so does bureaucracy. Human nature changes with social conditions. Laws and positions and customs and all vary from place to place and time to time even now. You really are grasping at straws here. I crush all these clowns daily and Paulogia is only good until he is critiqued. then he crumbles. no surprise that he never debates and opponent ever.
@@j919or You're the one grasping at straws. What is more likely: all historical accounts of what the census was for were incorrect and the Romans did indeed want a useless accounting of people not living under their rule based on a criterion they have no obvious reason to care about, or that one single religious account of the event written long after the census by someone who likely didn't experience it is either mistaken or rearranging the facts to fit the narrative he's trying to tell?
I cannot fathom the amount of compartmentalization that must go on in the brains of apologists to prevent the cognitive dissonance that should result from the blatant hypocrisy in the standards they apply to their own beliefs versus the claims of others.
It seems like if the creator of the universe really wanted to save the whole world-he would make his one time message to that world the clearest,most concise,most precise, message-surpassing anything a human could produce a hundred fold.Then his "people" would all be on the same page-and there would be no need for apologists.The Bible should be as clear and precise as a manuel on how to dismantle an atomic bomb.
Omg i got goosebumps right when I heard hitchens voice. Miss ya bud. Shout out to viced rhino. Sorry to hear about your loved one.
Where would my family go, well according to my DNA test most of my family would go to Senegal in West Africa. Although I would have absolutely no idea what town or village my ancestors came from. Being that was a thousand years ago.
Yep, I'd have to visit about ... a dozen countries in a dozen different areas, as I'm a human version of a mutt, a _Heinz 57,_ if you will. Different continents of origin complicate things a bit, too. 😄
Only if I went by which area showed up as the highest percentage in my DNA would I even know which area to go to, much less which town to go to, LOL!
Edited to add: the research I've done only goes back about ... 400 years, at best, so it doesn't help me a bit, either. 😄
Oh, wow - I JUST noticed your username! Very cool!! I was one of a handful of people that transcribed the 9th and 10th Cavalry records from the Buffalo Soldiers' formation through to, if memory serves, 1912. It was *fascinating* to me! I still have several contacts from the historical groups that work in the Buffalo Soldiers research groups, and I have a _ton_ of bookmarks left from where I was researching so I could transcribe the records correctly!
I just HAD to say something about it, because it was such a huge part of my life for years!
I could go to pretty much any country in Northwestern Europe because I'm such a mutt. I live and work in California now, though. How would my wandering around the middle of nowhere in Norway help the US government assess me for taxes, which is the whole point of a census?
@@thedeebo410 Exactly
@@MaryAnnNytowl 👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿
I started arguing the census about the age of 13 (51 yrs ago) and my youth pastor's answer to it was maybe I stop coming to youth services because I'm confusing the other teens
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Smart dude, your youth pastor
Well done I hope you kept going.
I was asked to stop coming, because I punched the PK when he cornered and grabbed me
That's Strobel, isn't it. Why am I not surprised to see him unironically say 'fake news'. I'm a bit disappointed, because I foolishly keep thinking that his ilk have a final depth to their depravity, but no, it's depravity all the way down with apologists. I should know better. I'm a cynic. Yet somehow there's that microscopic shred of optimism left in me that keeps getting me disappointed when apologists prove that they are exactly what they are and nothing more.
@Steve M some words to live by, right there!
Yes, it is disappointing. And Lee is knowingly disingenuous. Lying for Jesus is OK I guess.
"Cynicism, my dear, is simply an unpleasant way of telling the truth..." - "The Little Foxes", Lillian Hellman an apt quote for the thread, but also a plug for an amazing play&film from 1941, starring Bette Davis, my favorite actress of all time...
Lol have you seen "Case for creationism"? The first 20 mins is just Lee Strobel doing autofelatio on screen....for 20mins. In that video he also quotes the Weekly World News for evidence of God.
Strobel's whole career is founded on the total lie that he was ever a skeptic. He's no investigative journalist either, at least there's nothing journalistic about his book. He followed no journalistic protocols or methodologies. He interviewed only Christian apologists, took them all at their word for everything, never fact checked anything, never spoke to legitimate mainstream scholars, never started out with any genuine curiosity in the first place. The whole "journalist" thing was just a marketing ploy to sell bog-standard apologetics. Strobel has always been dishonest to the core, but I can't think of an apologist who isn't. It's basically impossible to do Christian apologetics honestly.
Paul!
Your presentations are educational, informative & accurate!
It’s sad that those bathed in the false waters may not be able/want to understand the information you are conveying.
It's sad that I'm NOT bathed in the false waters (I'm definitely an atheist) but I can't understand half of this crap. I try to follow along, but the in-and-out weavings of all of this loses me. Still... I listen and enjoy it. LOL!
@@calonstanni ruclips.net/video/915jNmXZ9t8/видео.html
I’ve been wishing people a ‘Super Solstice’ in response to Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas for years.
Merry Yule, Odin bless!
Sometimes I say, “Fa la la la la!”
Ironically, if Christians switched to the actual solstice to celebrate the birth of Yeshua,
They’d have a quiet little holiday without the dreaded “war”.😜
@@cipherklosenuf9242 Christmas on the 21st?
@@autobotstarscream765 Just joking. Christian’s are sometimes critical of the secularization of December 25 and feel that non-Christians have taken their holiday (which I believe was supposed to be on the Winter Solstice but quirky calendar changes and astronomical errors resulted in Christmas being placed on the 25th.) Meanwhile there sits the real Solstice. If Christians switched Christmas to Dec 21 they could commemorate their holy day without the Santa hype. Then pagans could protest “It’s war on Solstice! Keep Odin in Solstice! “. Don’t worry. Won’t happen. Gud Yule! Fa la la!!
@@autobotstarscream765 Or the solstice on the 25th: Sol Invictus ("The Unconquered Sun/Invincible Sun") was originally a Syrian god who was later adopted as the chief god of the Roman Empire under Emperor Aurelian.[14] His holiday is traditionally celebrated on December 25, as are several gods associated with the winter solstice in many pagan traditions.[15] It has been speculated to be the reason behind Christmas' proximity to the solstice.[16]
Not even hijacking other celebrations for political reasons was a christian original.
Just made my morning! Also, thank you for addressing the census. I am about 2 years into my deconstruction and am just finally learning about this and it is so fascinating!!
Oh the very sad story of the de-converted. First comes DOUBT, then DISBELIEF, next DISOBEDIENCE, and finally.....
DECEPTION." Sound about right? Don't listen to the big Lie. Remember what Satan said to Eve in the Garden of Eden
"HAS GOD REALLY SAID?" And he has been whispering this into people's minds since the dawn of mankind.
These are all the very evident signs before the return of Jesus. "the (agape) love of many will grow cold."
But we still have His grace and mercy extended toward us. Repent, and TRUST totally in Jesus for His salvation.
"The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever." (Psalm 119:160)
@@christophergibson7155 hard pass. Literally none of that happened and I don't feel any need to live my life based around accepting lies as truth and calling it moral.
@@bangsandbullets Perhaps, you never really knew Jesus. You can know "all about Him"; but "to know Him", is like day from night. You can compare it to: "Really knowing" your parents, or brother or sister, or cousin, instead of just "knowing about them." So, that is what the "new birth" and being filled with the Holy Spirit is all about.
@@christophergibson7155 I think it's rich you're proselytizing on this video where the owner of the channel clearly states he is a former Christian who has studied the Bible extensively. You're assumptions are not just insulting but unfounded; you just can't fathom a world where we studied your books and your prophets, your God and your Jesus, and came away realizing none of it stood up to reality, truth, science, or history.
@@bangsandbullets "let God be true and every man a liar." So easy for these armchair philosophers to discredit, mock, and scoff at the established facts of the Bible. And besides this, God's word plainly warns us about what would transpire in the times we are now living. "Now the Spirit EXPRESSLY
says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to SEDUCING SPIRITS AND DOCTRINES OF DEMONS."
We are in a spiritual warfare for our souls.
Deception is on the rise! It is propaganda.
"Propaganda" is when people "are told" something enough times over and over they will eventually believe it to be true, when in
truth it is a LIE. "Don't be deceived, God is not mocked; For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Word to consider.
I’m confused. I though we were talking about Christmas. You know Santa Claus and ho-ho-ho, and mistletoe and presents to pretty girls.
Well, presents to pretty girls happens year-round, I hope. :)
On my lunch break, was just thinking "I hope Paul uploaded something" and here I am!
perfect!
19:10 - "Wait, who exactly are the eyewitnesses of Jesus' conception?"
Oh, did you not get the invite? You missed out, man, it was HOTT.
Yeah also not to mention Galilee was independent therefore they are wouldn't be under a decree for a census and even if they were, women were not counted in censuses is so it'd be no need for Mary to even go to Bethlehem.
oopsie!
We have the claim of a Roman Empire wide census for which we have zero evidence as in did not happen at the time. At no census you had to go were some ancestors might gave lived. As you mentioned before the earliest time such a census might have happened was 6 AD as it came under Roman rule. So it could not have happened when Herod was alive as he died 4BC.
Couldn't leave her at home undefended
The last time he wasn't watching her, she got pregnant and claimed a ghost did it
Lee Strobel just said "rigorous investigation"! And meant it as something he is in favor of! ROFL!
Holy moly that's rich.
You got me. I was trying to remember the VP 80 years ago. I had forgotten that Truman replaced Wallace on the ticket on 1944 and so Wallace was still VP 80 years ago today.
Still closer than 99% of people would get, myself included!
I often hear "how do you explain this storyif it isn't true?" Most often from apologists and ancient astronaut theorists.
My reply: "Well, and hear me out on this.... Maybe, just maybe, we as a species, much longer ago than the last hundred years or so, developed the ability to Make. Shit. Up."
...and we've been enjoying it since
🙂
@@kenbee1957 I take it that by "enjoying" you mean massively suffering from?
The irony in that part where he cites a letter-forger (aka “liar” or “speaker of not-truths”) trying to convince people to believe a gospel by saying the stories aren’t just “cleverly designed fables” , and then Strobel says “that’s a truth you can anchor your life on” is just palpable and scrumptious.
Bittersweet as well, though, since far too many do shackle their one and only life down to the sea floor with this cleverly designed fable.
Mythology is full of gods coming to earth and impregnating women. The only real difference in Luke is that the sex is glossed out, but it's really the exact same thing. The seed of a god being implanted in a human woman. That was ubiquitous not just in mythology but often in royal propaganda about real human rulers. Also every myth has aspects that are unique to that myth. That's what makes them different myths. Looking for unique aspects is nothing but special pleading.
Wallace is a huge fraud too. "Cold Case" is a monument of ignorance.
I foolishly gave Lee too much credit and thought he would get to the census/Quirinius issue on his own in the next part. Instead he just talks about this Mithras strawman. My already bottom-of-the-barrel expectations were too high.
Nobody cares about Mithras, compare the Gospel to the Ramayana for something a little more interesting.
@@autobotstarscream765 I mean, I'm pretty sure the Buddha was supposed to be an immaculate conception as well, though I'm not sure how far back that part of the legend goes.
For the claim that the gospel writers' convoluted attempts to get Jesus to be born on Bethlehem, there's the counter-argument that the gospel writers also believed based on a few out of context verses in the books of Isaiah and Judges that were interpreted to mean the Messiah would be a "Nazirite", which they mistook for a person hailing from Nazareth, and therefore were stuck trying to figure out how the Messiah could be from both Nazareth and Bethlehem (which itself corresponds to an Old Testament verse that was taken out of context). There is evidence that the city of Nazareth didn't even exist in the time Jesus was supposed to have been born.
Thanks for that. I'd heard that, too. I have no idea whether that's reasonable or not, so I was really hoping that Paulogia - and Bart Ehrman - would mention it. Well, maybe in the next video.
Thanks Paulogia for accurately stating what skeptics claims..it wasn't direct borrowing, it was made up and influenced by common tropes and ideas.
I have literally never heard Mithras brought up to make any other point besides "the date of Christmas is neither historical nor Biblical".
I miss the old tune. It doesn't seem like a Paulogia video without it.
but its christmas man!
@@ndjarnag
Yeah. Once a year, I can do with Christmas music everywhere. Then, in January, we're all so sick of it that we don't want to hear it for another year. That works for me. :)
It does seem like to me that the Christian did basically hijacked real popular pagan winter solstice and spring equinox holidays. And we also know they took a lot of things from Judaism, not surprisingly because they came out of Judaism.
Which in turn came from Mesopotamian stories, from which Chrisitianity seems to get its Big Three of the Heavenly Father (An/Anu), the Wise Son who created and protects humanity (Enki/Ea), and the Great Lawgiver of the Divine Winds (Enlil/Elil), its Archangel Michael (Marduk) who overcame the Dragon of Water (Nammu/Tiamat), and its Devil/rebelling young deity Lucifer (Inanna/Ishtar) that tried to take the throne of the King of the Universe and be like the Most High.
P.S. >"spring solstice"
*Vernal Equinox
@bideo gaems Thank you.👍🏿👍🏿
I love it when these Apologists take notice of your channel Paul0gia!🙂
Those are my favorites.
Bart Ehrman for the win.
He gets slayed in debate. See James White and Tim McGrew debate.
@@isaacleillhikar4566
Nah, Ehrman never lost a debate.
Especially not against a joker like McGrew.😂
As a fellow Chapel Hillian,I love me some Bart Ehrman. I’ve even eaten at the Armadillo Grill! Go #tarheels!
Did Bart pay?
@@hadz8671 Haha, sadly no! Maybe I’ll try to audit one of his classes lol!
Ok, I was onboard with your comment until the "go tarheels" comment.
- Go Hoos!!!
Ehrman laughing as a cartoon guy is funny as heck.
Yay! A new video and Christmas! All the holiday stuff please.
Omg. Paul's use of Enthyomemes in humor is spot on? "What? You used to be a journalist?"
Strobel knocking down the easy targets here. If he wants to criticise claims of earlier dying and rising gods, rather than chose those my random internet people, he should go after the ones Carrier claims in his book.
Completely agree.
I just love your sense of humour Paul!!! So many of your comments make me giggle, and then Shannon appeared for a moment!!! Neato!! Great, great job!!!
It's just like watching a superhero film from a different studio than marvel, but the movie feels just like it's a marvel movie. You can't point to any particular character or dialogue that's directly copied, but you can tell that the makers have seen the marvel movies and are trying to tap into that appeal by borrowing certain tropes.
The "angel will come on you" line had me dying.
Yes Lee that intro is why I am no longer a Christian. You are not arguing well when I can not name an atheist without their comments section open and I can name countless large ministries. AiG, Creation International, Living Waters, Stand to Reason. All of them have frequently closed their comments.
18:45 A wild Shannon Q appears! And she's funny xD
Can imagine her over his shoulder as he makes the video making this comment.
@@chalettime7708 I think they are both in NS, now.
Thanks for the video :)
From teetering on the edge of disownment to having to cut off my extremely toxic family, here’s to my third Christmas alone in 3 years! ❤️ I love your videos Paul. You’ve been a major help in my long deconversion.
Thanks for the Corner Gas clip!
Your scholarly dissection was great entertainment as well as informative. Thanks for all your work.
I was litterally just trawling through Twitter thinking "ya know what I could use some Paulogia right now" and then boom this drops early I manifested it right 🤣
Could you please manifest me a loving father
..
..
😉😄
"People say Christmas is a copycat religion"
Oh you're talking about Saturnalia and Yule.
"Yeah there was this religion called Mithaism that is an exact duplicate of the Nativity Story."
...I have literally never heard of that. Are you straw manning? This sounds like straw manning.
"You're misunderstanding this story that you never heard of therefore the Bible is true" that's the vibes I get from that defense lol
So Bart Ehrman doesn't understand why people want to tax the rich, alright.
Fortunately according to the new definition of "rich“ only billionaires are rich… and simple multi millionaires are save.😂
@@ramigilneas9274 yikes, I still would think taxing multi millionaires is super important.
Paul, thank you for sticking to the facts and not exaggerating to make a point.
Great video! Thank you 😊
I loved the comparison of "once upon a time" to "in the beginning".
I’m a Christian and even smirked at that one lol that was funny
Paul, you deserve so many more subs. than you have. Your videos are always so well done.
I love the images you use on the screen while making certain points
For example, the image of someone knitting some actual fabric while saying the word "fabricated" haha that's hilarious xD
The puns are awesome :)
I AM FUNNY 😜
Looks aren't everything. :)
Excellent content thank you
Oh what a tangled web apologists continually weave. The problem is, when they are done, the web is nothing but a giant mess of strung together cob webs rather than an beautiful web you can actually see was spun together by someone or that knows what the fuck they are doing. It's exhausting listen to them continue to put spins on scriptures and history and so on. Thank you Paulogia for being here to take apart their tangled mess of an argument on strand at a time.
Virgin births in the ancient world:
Rhea (or Rea) Silvia (Latin: [ˈreːa ˈsɪɫu̯ia]), also known as Ilia[1] (as well as other names)[a] was the mythical mother of the twins Romulus and Remus, who founded the city of Rome.[3] Her story is told in the first book of Ab Urbe Condita Libri of Livy[4] and in Cassius Dio's Roman History.[5] The Legend of Rhea Silvia recounts how she was raped by Mars while she was a Vestal Virgin and as a result became the Mother of Romulus and Remus the founders of Rome.[6] This event would be portrayed numerous times in Roman art[7] Wikipedia.
If the worldly Empire was from a virgin birth then the Christian empire just had to have one as well.
But if you're raped, you're not a virgin anymore, which unfortunately inspired some living under purity culture to rape just to attempt to destroy the lives of their victims.
"When we say…Jesus Christ…was produced without sexual union, and was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, *we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call Sons of God. [In fact]…if anybody objects that [Jesus] was crucified, this is in common with the sons of Zeus (as you call them) who suffered, as previously listed [he listed Dionysus, Hercules, and Asclepius].* Since their fatal sufferings are all narrated as not similar but different, so his unique passion should not seem to be any worse."
*Note how Justin (Martyr) is less of a fool than modern Christian apologists. He admits that differences don’t matter.* Since each and every one of the suffering and dying gods are slain by different means, one cannot argue the mytheme requires exactly the same means of death. “But Osiris can’t have inspired the Jesus myth because Osiris wasn’t nailed to a cross” is a stupid argument. The mytheme is simply death. Being killed. Suffering and dying. The exact mode of death can vary freely. It makes no difference to the existence and influence of the mytheme. It’s simply the particular instantiation of a generic abstraction. *And Justin’s argument (that Satan invented these fake religions to confuse people) entails Justin agreed the mytheme existed: indeed, it was demonically promulgated, multiple times. Intentionally.*
*Likewise, Justin notices the mytheme is not virgin birth, but sexless conception. Of which many examples had already been popularized in pagan mythology (there just happens to also have been examples of actual virgin born gods as well). And by his argument (that the Devil was deliberately emulating the Jesus mytheme, in advance), Justin clearly accepted the same principle for “rising again” after death:* the particular exact metaphysics of the resurrection could, like the exact method of death or conception, vary freely. The mytheme consists solely of the abstraction: returning to life. Somehow. Some way. We will say bodily, at the very least. But what sort of body (the same one, a new one, a mortal one, an immortal one), didn’t matter. *If it had, Justin would have made the argument that “those gods” weren’t really resurrected. But that argument, never occurs to him. Nor did it to any other apologist of the first three centuries.*
*Ancient Christians well knew there was nothing new about their dying-and-rising god. Not in respect to the mytheme.* Their claims were solely that his particular instantiation of it was better, and the only one that actually happened. *They didn’t make up the stupid modern arguments that dying-and-rising god myths didn’t exist or weren’t part of a common mytheme everyone knew about. For example, in the same century, Tertullian, in Prescription against Heretics 40, makes exactly the same argument as Justin. Funny that. They had better access to the evidence than we do. They knew what was really and widely the case. We should listen to them.*
Google *"Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier"*
Watch *"Dying & Rising Gods: A Response to William Lane Craig"* and other related videos by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.
@@LM-jz9vh Interesting.
Since looking at one specific trope (a god dying and resurrecting) is seen everywhere as it is common and seen as a base proof of divinity to defy death, and the gods are even asked to demonstrate this power by resurrecting not only themselves but even mortals, such as Odin who both 1) died on a tree and resurrected himself, and also 2) resurrected human warriors as Einhanjar and Valkyr to serve as his angels as angels are often depicted as being the souls of the mortal dead in Christian pop culture despite this being contrary to Biblical depictions of angels, and more in line with the army of saints following the dead, resurrected, and ascended Christ into battle at Armageddon similar to the army of Valhalla following Odin into battle in that belief's own eschatological final battle of Ragnarök, this is but one example of how if one only looks for one particular common trope and swings from superficial similarity to superficial similarity, one can overlook the actual distinctions between the traditional stories and see all religions as exactly the same, the same stories, the same gods, just one monomyth endlessly repeating.
However, this can be myopic and overly simplifies a complex situation, causing actual connections to get buried in the process.
The virgin birth's greatest significance, perhaps even greater than fulfilling a Messianic prophecy since it turns out to be able to be fulfilled without the virginity of the mother anyway, is underscoring the high strangeness of the Immaculate Conception by underlining that it is indeed immaculate, and not a sexual use of Mary by this God of the Bible who is supposed to be spiritual and pure rather than just another flesh-and-blood god like those of the contemporary religions around the ANE that created humans to be their slaves and concubines, to use them for gratification to create demigod children that despite having divine nature only have it in half measure and came into existence as sentient souls at that point just like any mortal, whereas the early Apostolic Church was very adamant that Christ was none of these but rather created sexlessly, with respect to Mary and her purity instead of using her as a sex toy then tossing her out to be slaughtered by the purity culture around her as if she was one of Zeus's tragic maidens such as Medusa that suffered horrible fates and ultimately death, and with the Christ being not a half-god, half-man demigod progeny of divinity and humanity, but "fully God and fully man", a fully human Avatar indwelt by a fully-divine pre-existing God, as if the Deity made Himself a car and proceeded to hop in and drive it about.
If anything, this more resembles Vishnu of Hinduism's own Holy Creator Trinity, the Trimurti, who would reincarnate as a Messiah in a human body like any other soul hopping from lifetime to lifetime, the greatest similarity to Christ being that of Prince Rama, born normally to a mortal father and mother as fully human, yet also being fully a god with not a measure, but the full divinity and essence of Vishnu inside of him as Vishnu's Avatar, his human incarnation with which he could enter the human world legally and overcome the Serpent Devil, Ravana, as Satan could only be overcome by not just any god, but God the Son Himself of the Holy Trinity laying down His Heavenly privileges as King of the Universe to live, suffer, and die as mortals do, Emmanuel, God With Us.
Christ/YHVH and Rama/Vishnu even arguably bring the same message: prioritizing the spiritual, seeking enlightenment, and salvation through being "born again" which has often been compared to the message of Eastern religions such as Hinduism of being "born again" through reincarnation to learn over several lifetimes to become a selfless being and live in compassion for all things, until achieving perfect enlightenment and ascending to Nirvana.
So..."Christianity is Hinduism, get over it"?
Or maybe also Buddhism since it has been proposed that Christ went to India and returned to Israel a Buddhist monk teaching reincarnation as "salvation through being born again".
There was one review of Abe Lincoln vampire hunter that had me in stichers, went something like. 'I was really into the film, then when Abe pulled out the Winchester 34 to shot the vampire in the head it just completely took me out of the story, I just can't believe a film that uses a gun made two years after Abe died for him to shot that vampire with'
That's hilarious!
I assume it was an American reviewer? The obsession with guns here always surprises me - and often the extremely detailed knowledge of the different brands and models, too.
Nice Shannon Q cameo. 😆
Agreed! Took me completely by surprise!
That passage at 19:57 has the earmarks of, "It's totally true, my girlfriend (who lives in Canada so you can't meet her) is a model and..." Yeah, just because you start a sentence with the equivalent of "We didn't just make this up" doesn't mean you didn't just make it up.
As for the bit about its historical therefore truth, you know what else is historical, J. Smith of Mormon fame, Mohammed of Islamic fame... and oh yeah all the other Gods and Goddesses throughout all of history all over the world. That is not the argument you want to work with.
Because, there is a dusty musty verse in the old Babble that said someone would be a "Nazerene". Look, prophecy confirmed.
Yep, shame they got "Nazarene" and "Nazarite" mixed up, or is it?
I much prefer to celebrate the solstice and Earth’s axis tilting the light back our direction for a while. And I can prove it’s happened, happening next month and will happen again year after year.
“I cannot overstate the importance of checking the original source wether the material in question agrees with you or not.” -Winston Churchill
The Spirit will come upon you.
And in you, lol. Mary I'm looking at you.
I've been waiting for this follow up--It is entertaining watching the word salad the theist toss up--just in time for the holidays--Happy Winter Solstice every one!!!
"If we have to go to our ancestral homes a thousand years ago, where are you gonna go?" I mean, a lot of us probably won't come back. I know I wouldn't if I had that option - no matter if it's Germany, Ireland, or Sweden (the 3 countries where a majority of my DNA traces to per 23&Me).
No trains planes or automobiles, only asses.
@@frankwhelan1715
Well, we have _more_ than enough asses these days - here in America, at least. :)
You may be able to migrate, if you really wanted to. I was lucky enough to have a British mother, so I now have dual citizenship Australia/UK . I lived there for a year, then working visa in Canada, but now I'm back in Australia. Living abroad is a wonderful experience
@@trybunt Lol My ancestors all migrated to the US over 100 years ago. But yeah, if you're lucky enough to still have close ties to another country, that's awesome. I have a friend whose family kept very close ties to relatives in Ireland and they just bought a house in Ireland this past month.
But that's just not the case for my family. We don't even speak German anymore and our family was in a German-speaking community in Iowa for about 70-90 years after they got here (they stopped using German at home shortly after my grandparents were born - during WW2 specifically).
Besides, my partner's permanently disabled - that alone makes immigrating difficult as I'd have to get a job that would support both of us without relying on any gov assistance. That's true no matter where you go or they'll deny access.
What they didn’t mention is that Judea was under Quirinius’ control and Galilee was still run by the Herod family as a client state. It would be like France having a census and me travelling across the channel to Rouen to take part because William the Conqueror is my ancestor (no really he is, honest - you can’t prove me wrong).
I was under the inpression that Jesus had to be from both Bethlehem and Nazareth in order to fit some profecies or to match known facts about Jesus with a profecy.
Good job, Paul
I cannot stop laughing thinking about how well that proverbs describes your channel!
So smart! I love it!
Excellent!
Great video. Good information. I have Bart Ehrman’s book Forged. Thanks for sharing.
Love the Shannon Q cameo!
I adore you guys!
👋 👋
Merry Solstice, Paul and Dr Ehrman.
When is Lee Strobel going to get around to interviewing a noted atheist for one of his books?
_"When is Lee Strobel going to get around to interviewing a noted atheist"_ Never as it would shatter his worldview.
Probably the same day Gary Habermas produces his seminal work on the minimal facts.
Merry BartMas!
Best part of Christmas time is Paulogia's Christmas intro music
We missed you at the faithless forum. I'm very happy for you though, and totally understand. I hope I can meet you next time.
Thanks. I hope so too!
I love how he hits on Mithras which is the one god we know little about. He also ignores the other various gods who were rising and dying gods etc.
Paul: "[George Lucas] liked swordfighting but it didn't seem futuristic."
Frank Herbert: "Knives are the future of warfare!"
😂
Bart Ehrman sounds like Scotty Kilmer in this video 🤣
Most people I knew growing up insisted that Christ was born on Christmas Day. Which is an even sillier idea when considering that in places such as Denmark, Christmas Day is on the 24th
Happy Solstice, everyone!
".....but that's not what the New Testament is like."
Actually,....the "gospels" read _very_ much like fiction. O_o
"Now _that's_ the kind of truth that we can confidently anchor our lives on." You mean,...because a person insisted their story "was truthful", it just is?? That's not how actual investigation works. No wonder these guys fell for the claims, if that is what influences them!!
Also, that's also not what stories of Robin Hood or Paul Bunyan are like, and those is clearly legend.
@@flowingafterglow629 True. Literary styles change throughout time.
The start of this video was perfect
Paulogia, theses have been great. Good info. And I love that, though now holiday, you kept the celtic sound to the theme! But you were redundant in one spot, you are a christian scholar, accredited or not! 👍🥰💖❣✌
you're too kind
@@Paulogia lol, I accidentally wrote theses, instead of these. But it worked out, because of my remark about you being, and you are, a scholar. Sort of, worked, anyway. 🥰😅👍✌
Bart Ehrman laughing through all of this is a little disturbing. lol
I hope you get to do more stuff with Bart. The man is a genius.
"Who exactly are the eyewitnesses to Jesus' conception?"
I don't think I want an answer to that.
Getting Bart E to pop into your video is amazing.
As someone from Sask I appreciate the Corner Gas reference 😂
I just love Ehrman, such a lively fellow and very good at communicating these issues.
Thank you
You're welcome
Paulagia with another classic!
"for we did not follow cleverly devised tales..."
I wholeheartedly agree. You did not follow CLEVERLY devised tales.
God: Adultery is a sin.
Also God: I am going to make another man's wife pregnant, with me as their child.
It seems like kind of a weird flex on God's part if you ask me.
Haha hilarious
Mary and Joseph were not yet married at the time of impregnation.
It seems like you have trouble believing the miracle of Jesus birth by the Holy Spirit (who is also God).
This is why Jesus was a sinless man. The seed of mankind was not passed down to Mary for His birth.
Armchair philosophers void of the Spirit of God trying to interpret the scriptures with their own intellect.
"Professing to be wise they became fools." "He catches the wise in their own craftiness".
I am so grateful for the Word of God. "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"
It seems like you aren't convinced that Jesus's daddy was a magic space ghost who is also a magic sky god and also Jesus himself, making Jesus his own father.
This is why Jesus could avoid doing things that piss off his father; because he IS his own father. And he doesn't get angry with himself; he gets angry wih adults, infants, other animals, and plants (especially fig trees). Jesus wasn't made by a human sperm and a human egg... he was made when a magic ghost (who was also Jesus) came all over Mary or something... we're still unsure about the exact details.
Armchair philosophers don't belive in a magic space ghost who spooges on women and gets them pregnant with himself. Instead, they trust their own "intellect" (Ha!) Those people are not really wise, but I am wise because I know about the magic space ghost who is both his own father and his own son.
"Professing to be wise, they become fools." "He catches the wise in their own craftiness." "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle."
I am so grateful for the collection of ancient writings that people claim were divinely inspired... but not the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran, the Upanishads, the Agamas, the Kojiki, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Dao De Jing, the Book of Shadows, or the Avesta. You know the one I'm talking about.
"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee."
@@eshapard As you can see from your own statements and reactions that your intellect is darkened by sin. S.I.N. (that Selfish Independent Nature). The un-regenerated man is dead in his sins and trespasses.
So, instead of coming to the light of God's word, you make excuse by mocking and scoffing to justify yourself
And this is the condemnation for you, that light (Jesus) has come into the world, and you loved darkness (sin) rather than the light (Jesus), because your deeds are evil. For because you practice evil (sin) you hate the light, and do not come to the light, lest your deeds should be exposed. But if you do the truth you will come to the light, that your deeds can be clearly seen that they have been done in God. (paraphrased for you personally from John 3:19-21) It's time to Repent, (have a change of mind toward sin and self), and totally trust Jesus to save you. Just come to Him as a little child, humble dependent. He is Faithful !
I treat the burden of proof of religious claims as beyond a reasonable doubt
The prosecution (apologists) have to prove that their particular religion is guilty of being true
Would the claims of apologists such as the one in this video hold up in a court of law? Well, from my extensive knowledge of law (having binge watched the videos of legal eagle) I say no f*** chance.
The whole census narrative is so contrived. I have a feeling Strobel & Wallace know this but dare not acknowledge it for the sake of their career & followers.
YAY! To the Corner Gas clip!
Best gift for christmas