Bible Chain-of-Custody is Still Broken (J Warner Wallace "Person of Interest" response)
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2022
- Is there a chain of custody that secures the evidence about the identity of Jesus from the time of the eyewitnesses all the way to the fourth century when manuscript evidence was more abundant? Former cold case detective J Warner Wallace and apologist Frank Turek say yes, as they respond to my critique of Wallace's "Person of Interest" book.
Original Podcast - How the Chain of Custody Affirms the Biblical Jesus
crossexamined.org/how-the-cha...
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: someone needs to re-examine any cold cases that J Warner Wallace solved.
I have agreed before, and I will agree again, yes they really do need to, 80% are probably the wrong person in jail.
You are assuming that he solved a case before xD
@@user-qz6nk1le5n presumably if he had tossed a coin he would have got the right result some of the time. Mostly the culprit in a murder is pretty obvious any way, it was the spouse.
@@roqsteady5290 The obvious ones don't end up as cold cases.
@@roqsteady5290 yeah but, how many cases are solved by one detective? His share to the cases could be null
I love the fact he actually lists "Jesus is either fictional, an average guy, or literally the creator of everything" and asks which explanation is the most reasonable... and he chooses the last one. That's just actually amazing to hear said out loud.
Isn't it, though? I mean, I expected the false dichotomy stuff - obviously, those are _not_ the only three options! - but then to hear him describe the _magical_ option as "most reasonable,"... well, I just had to laugh.
C. S. Lewis's trilemma is that Jesus was either lunatic, liar, or Lord. At that point people didn't seem to want to consider that He might be fictional, so maybe this is progress.
@@tim57243 I always assumed that bit was preceded by "if he actually existed..." implicitly, but apparently most Christians didn't get that. If you add that bit, Lewis actually makes a pretty good argument for Jesus likely being fictional!
@@Marconius6
_I always assumed that bit was preceded by "if he actually existed..."_
But that doesn't make it much better, does it? There are _still_ other options. I'm fine with Jesus existing. That wouldn't mean we actually know what he said, though. We have nothing from Jesus himself and nothing from anyone who'd ever _met_ Jesus, as far as we can tell.
Abraham Lincoln _existed._ But I'm still doubtful about the claims in "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter." I suppose that C.S. Lewis would say Lincoln _had_ to be a Lunatic, Liar, or Vampire Hunter, huh? But I see other alternatives. :)
I just imagine a lawyer saying "either my client is guilty or he is the creator of everything thus he can kill whomever he wants" and the judge just deciding that the latter is a good claim.
This guy's low standards of evidence and lack of critical thinking make me really glad he's no longer responsible for sending people to prison.
He seems to be unaware of hearsay or the ability to cross examine.
He's a cop, not a lawyer.
Come on, DeeDee, how can Wally's standards of evidence be low? He has TWO standards of evidence! That's *double* the *standard* of anyone else!
@@EdwardHowton 😄two times zero is still zero.
@@EdwardHowton I see what you did there.
Prosecutor: "This is sworn testemony from the witness that saw the murder take place. We want this entered in to evidence."
Defence: "I can't see the vitness signature here"
P: "It's a copy"
D: "Please bring the original"
P: "It's unfortunately lost, but the copy is authentic!"
D: Lost? OK. This is not a zerox is it?"
P: No, we transfered it to make it more easy to read."
D: "Who did?"
P: "The last one was Sg Johnson, and the one before was officer Jack something."
D: "Wait. You've copied it more than once?"
P: "Yes."
D: "How many?"
P: "A few"
D: "How! Many!?
P: "About 50... -ish..."
D: "... and you have the names of all of the people that transcribed it?"
P: "I think the one before Jack was named alex or albert or something like that..:"
D: "This is at best hearsay, but at it's current state it's fiction."
P: "NO! It's an authentic copy!"
D: "Of a copy... of a copy... of a copy..."
P: "..."
D: "OK. At lest give me the name of the witnbess, so that I can confirm this 'testemony'"
P: "... Noone remember the witness name any more, but we're fairly sure it was a guy... "
Perfect representation.
Thank you, this comment is very accurate and as such is extremely funny.
Very funny!
😆😆😆
"In a thousand years, people will not be bending their knee to Luke Skywalker."
Disney has a plan, I guarantee you.
There are people who consider Jedi philosophy their religion TODAY. They don't worship Luke Skywalker or treat the films as scripture though. In fact many of them somewhat paradoxically think the movies are false teachings.
Forget the Disney "joke"-that-isn't-really-a-joke. Why the hell would anyone want to bend the knee to anything?
_Hello children, remember that the entire universe was made specially just for YOU! Now take out your exercise booklets and get ready for Groveling Class_ is not my idea of a bright future, but apparently that's living the dream for Wally.
Weird isn't it, that even though a lot of people know of Pythagoras, about 2500 years after he lived, they're not bending their knee to him. Could it possibly be because he never claimed, nor are any stories of him claiming, divine status? Nah. That would make too much sense. Only divine people are remembered by the masses after X years, and only if their claim to divinity - expressed or not - is actually true, will people think of them as divine.
No that would be Darth Vader, bending knees is something that the dark side wants.
Within a few years, the entire Disney empire shall be totally destroyed.
New book idea: exploring the cultural impact of Zoroaster on Christianity. We’ll call it “Persian of Interest”.
I'll read that!
I'd absolutely read that. I find Zoroastrianism fascinating, as ancient religions go!
Oh, snap!
@@artemisia4718 It's a current religion though.
@@rimmersbryggeri Definition of ancient: “having had an existence of many years”. I did not imply it is extinct, only that it’s origins are in Antiquity.
"I've never lost a case" is a WILD thing for a detective to say. That's what an attorney would say.
It's terrifying to imagine a detective who is obsessed with a conviction record, when he should only care about evidence.
Obviously not concerned about the truth, it's all about winning
"People looking at this have an anti-supernatural bias"
You know what, I think I'd be okay with being labelled as having an anti-supernatural bias. You're right Wallace, generally speaking when I encounter things I don't know the answer to I don't default to things like ghosts, spirits, magic and gods. I think I'm alright with being biased against the unfalsifiable.
The same could be said about those heathens who refuse to acknowledge Zeus as the true source of lightning
Silly Wallace forgetting that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and other religious people also don’t find the evidence convincing either. They don’t have an anti supernatural bias at all. But I guess they’re controlled by the devil right? 😂
I'd rather have an anti-supernatural bias than an anti-reality bias.
This is something I’ve tried capturing in words for years. Thank you
someone is dead, a ghost must have done it!
It's just amazing how an apologist like Jay Warner Wallace will waste so much effort, so many hundreds of pages, on what reduces to an appeal to popularity logical fallacy.
Yeah but cash money
You realize he is probably getting loaded off this *waste of time* right?
@@Iamwrongbut Aww, bugger, I was gonna reply with similar. His book may be a work of fiction, but we do know that people buy and enjoy fiction if it is a storyline they enjoy.
Heh, you must be unfamiliar with how the apologetics industry works. Logical fallacies are their bread and butter. The giant, flashing, asbestos-dusted lead-flavored feature, not a bug.
It stops being amazing if you see how much money such empty drivel makes.
"The Jar Jar Binks of Christian claims..." killed me
"Why shucks why would i care if the evidence Im submitting is sound or worthwhile? I'm just a poor ol' cold case detective gosh golly gee" This guy I swear.
I love his talk about how they have "eye witnesses" ... anybody he arrested needs only to show a diary where they wrote "today 500 people saw that i was totally innocent of any crime" and Jaydubdub would have to let them go... at least if that really is a standard convincing him and not just a desperate attempt to talk the bible story nicer than it is...
I hope this guy's cases get looked into
Me too 🙋🏼♀️
I'd argue Emperor Constantine had far more impact than Jesus. He's the one who made Christianity popular in the first place. And it's worth noting that he had to use the military might of one of the largest empires that the world has ever seen to do it.
Then there’s colonialism that spread it further through force and coercion. Plus the church controlled the narrative too, not even allowing non clergy to read the Bible, for 1500 years.
So, arguably, did Paul.
@@fmtpulmanns7593 Constantine could influence the entire Roman Empire. Paul didn’t have that reach. Constantine more influential by far. Then there’s the colonialism spread through violence and coercion which also had a worldwide impact greater than Paul. Without those 2 it’s very questionable how influential Christianity would be.
Paul had more impact than Constantine, as Paul was the one that transformed Christianity from an insular Jewish sect into the first evangelical monotheistic religion. Once that happened, the conversion of an emperor was just a matter of time.
@@Kyeudo Ridiculous, and clearly the opinion of a religiously motivated reasoner. Constantine was a Roman Emperor. Without him using Christians to his benefit, Christianity would be a distant blimp, like lots of other failed religions or possibly a sect of Judaism.
12:44 - _"Because you're the same person (as Lee Strobel)"_ , lol! That made me bust out loud laughing. It's so true.
Same!
I honestly can't tell this guy, Strobel, or what's his face McDowell apart. I think there's even two McDowells, but I'll be damned if I can tell the difference.
Which, really, they should feel so depressed about. The Hovinds are all the same too, but even _Eric_ stands apart by being SO MUCH DUMBER than his deadbeat inmate father. Imagine being out-remarkable'd by _Eric goddamn Hovind._
I didn't quite comprehend why Paulogia said that.. obviously they are not the same people.. or was he being sarcastic?
@@bonnie43uk to me, it's the way that they talk about using what they learned in their prior-to-doing-apologetics-fields that makes them sound very similar. In a bad way.
@@bonnie43uk Strobel and Wallace are very similar in how they approach apologetics and biblical proof. They also share a near identical conversion; ie _"I was once a hardcore atheist but when I started to investigate the Bible using my (insert profession) I discovered it was true!"_
I love how they pick and choose church tradition. I’m sure if I asked them if Communion actually becomes Jesus’s body and blood, as is Church Tradition, or if Mary should be considered Holy, as is Church Tradition, they’d likely balk because that’s not a Protestant thing. But if they won’t accept Church Traditions, why should I?
Great points. However, I think Protestants accept that Mary was Holy. It's the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and her Assumption to Heaven that they deny.
Not the Southern Baptists Wallace is a part of. They are pretty firm on the belief that Mary was just Jesus’s mother, with no claims to perfection or Holiness. Or, better phrased, nobody but God is Holy.
@@Florkl oh, they use a weird definition of "Holy." In Catholicism "Holy" means set apart for God. So anything used for or by God is "Holy." For example a church, candles, communion wafers, etc.
However, I must admit there's a flaw in that definition. How can God himself be "Holy."
My Mennonite tradition said Mary was "blessed", not "holy".
@@ladyselenafelicitywhite1596 At least if only god is holy then they admit the scriptures aren’t, that’s one step closer to admitting they’re complete bs
Every video with Wallace makes me more and more concerned about innocent people behind bars.
How does a “cold case” detective not know what hearsay is?
This reminds me of an old joke.
What do you call a person who got C's throughout medical school?
"Doctor."
The simplest answer: He does know and (being very generous) he has cognitive dissonance when it comes to Jesus and has never given the Jesus claim critical thought. Or (being realistic) is knowingly exaggerating the case for Jesus and knowingly not applying critical thought and happily selling books that put forward this false case for profit.
@@JohnSmith-fz1ih you nailed it in one I suspect.
@@FakingANerve yes, you're right! Also we say about those colleagues that only study half the matter, that you can only diagnose what you know to be a disease. If you only read half the matter, you can only diagnose half the problems, but you're not half a doctor. And this is a real issue.
@@JohnSmith-fz1ih Nah, the simplest answer is that he's a cop. As a cop, he did what almost every cop does, look for something to use to lock somebody up. Who the somebody in question is doesn't matter nearly as much as scoring that conviction. Common estimates are that 2% to 10% of people in prison are in fact innocent, I suspect that it may be even higher. There are 2 million people in prison in the US.
12:42 "He probably would...because you're the same person."
Dead 🤣🤣💀
😂
You know you're famous when your haters mention you by name! Good for you Paulogia! 👍 You're getting under their skin and living rent-free in their smooth brains 🧠
Though it would be lovely if more than a few of them would at least attempt to pronounce his channel name right
_You know you're famous when your haters mention you by name!_
And you know you're _effective_ when some of them, like J. Warner Wallace, deliberately _avoid_ mentioning your name, because they don't want anyone looking you up.
The whole Greek mythology pantheon had a lot of influence on the world.
A lot of real people and fictional characters have left a mark on the world in some shape way or form.
Indeed. Iliad and Odyssey still has impact on how we structure our storytelling to this very day.
amy pieterse
At least you can't say that for the days of the week because they are real gods. I think the two go together so well that they would be uttered by millions of people worldwide every week.
You are relaxing on Sunday night, on your fourth glass of wine and say to your steadfast love or the wife if she is present. I promise I will only have a couple more, then I will go to bed. Six later, plus something for a nightcap. zzz
Morning breaks and your fair maiden brings you a robust coffee and a couple of Tylenol.
"Good morning, darling." She has said for the eighth time, and you hear her.
Jesus! Monday!
These two guys are the academic version of prosperity gospel televangelists. All your doubts fixed with this one little belief (that atheists don't want you to hear!)
Lol "This one weird fact that will definitely make you a believer."
At least it's not "10 Ways To Blow Your God's Mind In Bed That He'll Never Expect," though I'm pretty sure that one is already on the shelf too.
@@FakingANerve Kevin. _Kevin._ Really. "Jesus can't come unless you worship him daily." You're not even joking right now.
@@EdwardHowton 😉
@@EdwardHowton 😂😂😂
A chain of custody applies to some physical artifact (a letter, book, painting, shell casing, etc) physically passing from one person to another through time. You can't apply that same process to an idea that is passed from one person to another. When that happens, we don't call it a chain of custody, we call it hearsay.
A chain of hearsay doesn't sound as catchy.
J Warner Wallace is very entertaining and disturbing at the same time. When he describes his methodology for crime investigation one of his steps is to observe the evidence. Then assess what may have happened at a crime scene. His methodology makes me wonder how many crimes he has come to the conclusion were committed by something supernatural?
"OMG The vampires conspired with the Leprechauns to murder poor Mr. Jones!!! Why are you laughing? I'm serious." J Warner Wallace
He doesn’t realize it’s all hearsay? He doesn’t realize we can’t cross examine anyone? It would never make it to trial with this evidence.
Our species really should strive for better entertainment than watching the flames dancing from all the fires pieces of garbage like Wally here light out of our crumbling society.
This is why we can't have nice things.
1eviledy One video adressed that point, when Wallice listed all possibilities for a murder case and remarkably did not list supernatural intervention and afterwards switched right back at the supernatural possibility of his favorite story.
@@ChJuHu93
I missed that. Good spotting. You would make a good REAL detective
The most influential person of the world is Aristotle, our society actual views of love, soul, elements, nature come from him, and concepts like physics and metaphysics come from him. There is no way that some one could be more influential that Aristotle.
Good point. He's definitely a leading contender!
The inclusion of Vito Corleone in Paul's list is more than enough for me to slap the like button 🎬
Just gonna say- when he said 'give me an example of a fictional character who has had the same kind of cultural influence of Jesus'- my immediate response was Moses.
An argument can be used that the response "Jesus" is a reasonable answer to the question :D
With those methods to treat evidence I think it makes sense that the guy was sent to apply his superior intellect to cold cases
I'd say that'd be a pretty unfortunate choice as well. Exceptional investigators are needed to solve cold cases.
Maybe they were cold cases that the higher ups were convinced wouldn't get solved anyway. That would make more sense.
@@someguy2249 Perhaps. But if someone is so incompetent at their job that you find worthless projects for them, it makes even more sense to send them packing.
So I think he was probably considered competent, though, given his approach to apologetics, I find that difficult to accept.
@@someguy2249 Maybe they were cold cases because Wallace worked on them from the start. Maybe every case he was assigned to became a cold case.
@@martinmckee5333 I think it's pretty clear that he does what he does now for money. He may have even been a good detective, but he's just willing to lie and abandon all rigor if it appeals to the crowds that will buy his books. John Lennox is another individual who appears to not be able to grasp incredibly basic logical fallacies, but there's no way he is that unfamiliar with logic and problem solving, because he got his PhD in mathematics. Or maybe they feel like they are lying for good reasons, or maybe their just so stressed about the possibility of hell, or what they view as a meaningless existence, that they refuse to let critical thinking interfere with that part of their belief system.
I love these small clips of movies that Paulogia uses to hammer home the point he's trying to make... it's entertaining and quite effective. Great video as usual.
Paul, keep up the outstanding work 🥰
Also, it's completely uncontroversial that non-legendary characters both admired and despised e.g. Alexander the Great, George Washington, Nero accrue legendary and apocryphal stories, attributes and defining characteristics over time.
Hell, Alexander the Great actively encouraged people to identify him with gods or divine heroes. Who’s to say Jesus didn’t do something similar by, for example, not immediately correcting someone who said he healed a man “blind from birth” when all he really did was fix the man’s cataracts?
@@swolejeezy2603
"Did you hear? That Jesus guy just healed Frank! He can see! It's a miracle!"
Swole: "Pfft. Big deal. It's not like he was ALL the way blind."
😉
And these become “canon”, in a sense. Look at the Fate video game/anime franchise, where Alexander the Great is a character…along with Gilgamesh, gender bent King Arthur, Gilles de Rais, to name but a few.
Only a believer would argue that a supernatural explanation is more reasonable than a plausible natural explanation.
Stuck in a waiting room, just got the eye that Paul waits til we get home🤣🤣🤣 my partner lacks the humor in public, that he has elsewhere.
It might stir up some interesting conversation 😃
What a meanie! 😉
@@tommygig3a room full.of old catholics, with foot problems. Maybe the catholicism🤣🤣🤣
I think there needs to be an honest look at Wallace’s “solved” cases…If his methodology as a detective is the same as an apologist, I’d bet a shiny buffalo nickel there’s a lot of criminals running free and a lot of innocent people in prison.
Add my nickel to your pile!
You know it’s a good video when you check the timeline of the video just to make sure it’s not ending soon 😊
"Here's the problem if people say Jesus was exaggerated over time..." Uh, has this dude not actually read his Bible? That book does exactly that.
Coincidence?
I think not.
For the record, I totally enjoyed your "show me SW w/o showing me SW" rebuttal and appreciate the effort you took to edit all that.
^__^
Some of them got his name right.
The ones who don't are getting it wrong on purpose. He pronounces it in the beginning and also its not hard to phonetically read it properly. Everytime I hear apologists mispronounce paulogia I feel they're doing it as a stupid childlike smear. William lane Craig is supposed to be this brilliant man and can't even get his name right? B.S.
@@Poopfingers345 this. It's the same thing when parents used to say "Pokey-Mans" or "Mare-io" to talk dismissively about video games. It's petty and childish and it says a lot about how they see both their opposition and their supporters.
It was a hellatious and bloody road that took Christianity where it is today.The Bible or Jesus was used to push it forward.
The Clement letter was called such even though no one knows who wrote it, same as the gospels. It could have been written much later than Clement's time.
This is your occasional reminder that J. Warner Wallace has definitely been involved in a lot of wrongful convictions.
He doesn’t seem to understand cross examination and hearsay evidence.
Paul seems to be the real detective here. What a beat down of Wallace and his new book. I laughed at the Walter White "say my name" tie in. Well done, Paul!
One name proves your point, Christopher Columbus. I grew up thinking this guy was some sort of hero saint who found the "new world" and brought salvation to the savages. The ultimate white god. But we know now that this was only propaganda and that he was a horrible genocidal murderer who hated the natives and took advantage of them wherever he could.
I was taught he was the first sailor and one of the first people to believe the world was or might be a round ball rather than a round disk. I read a lot extracurriculum, but since this was "officially taught" I believed it at first over everything else; then year-by-year learned he was not only not so uniquely smart but also quite horrible. I much prefer real history to altered history.
“He probably would, because you’re the same person.”
Haha actually laughed out loud at that!
Paul, I'm slightly disappointed.
You didn't make a Star Wars interjection after the "handwaving" comment. It was right there, for the taking.
I see JWW still wants to use his ad populum "Jesus had great influence therefore his story is true!" line. There's a short on that that I commented on, saying how, if this is what JWW is going for, then he's basically committing the ad populum fallacy. There were a few defenders who were saying that that's NOT what he was going for, but if that's the case, then all that's left is him bragging about Jesus' influence, something most people already know of, for no apparent reason.
5:42 Yup, I believe that short was a plug for his book. Of course him saying Jesus is so popular this means nothing of substantive overall. And I lol at how they say Jesus has been influential in science. Yeah right.
9:04 Ugh, a dichotomy, possibly a false one, and his reasoning for why option 3 is the most reasonable is again, something that he can't quite explain without claiming that the Bible is true.
10:04 A world that rejects the Bible? Doesn't sound like this world where Christianity is the most populous religion right now.
12:04 He's basically trying to drum up support for his book then?
17:57 And even if it started as a conspiracy, all it needs is enough rubes to be deceived by it and then the conspiracy doesn't have to be maintained constantly, the believers will simply maintain and propagate the belief on their own. That's how conspiracies spread, that's how QAnon gained traction, and that's how so many people still believe the lie that Trump won the 2020 election but Biden stole it from him.
25:16 It's too early for the myth that Trump had the 2020 election stolen from him. People were believing this even BEFORE the election results were out (because much earlier, Trump HIMSELF had said, on more than one occasion, that if he lost, that means the result is rigged, no questions asked), so it MUST be true instead!
Is that JWW's finest? An ad populum argument for Christianity being true and to reinforce....a cold case file style book?
I'm sitting in a lovely little university coffee shop watching this and I looked up to see a postcard left here for some form of "Explore Jesus" thing to be held on campus. Jeebus there's so much about this Jesus guy out there lol
Explore Jesus in what way 😏
@@amypieterse4127 I think "Explore Jesus" is maybe a kind of adventure game, everyone can dress up as their favourite explorer, be it captain Cook, Dr Livingstone, or Indiana Jones. once done, each goes off to 'explore' and try to find Jesus, Those that find Jesus without any tangible evidence are classed as Christians, those who don't find evidence of Jesus, and simply end the game as they didn't find him, are called rational, and critical thinkers.
@@briannewton3535 Jesus, in the garden, with a quesadilla!
@@EdwardHowton Oooh, now this is sounding like a game of Cluedo. Colonel Mustard in the study with a lead pipe.
Though if Jesus did turn up with quesadilla in the garden, we could turn up with some sounds, a case of Estrella, and five thousand friends, and with Jesus at the helm to multiply the nosh and beer, it could turn into a rave.
@@briannewton3535 Look, I'm not saying that in my head when I saw the whole 'Jesus game' thing I got an idea of bigoted hypocritical assholes who hate "illegals" but have undocumented gardeners working for them playing Racist Clue, but that's exactly what I'm saying.
You know, King Arthur has been a hugely impactful character in history. Most of England's kings have claimed to be descended from him and the legend has been told and retold several times over. And yet? It looks like there never was a "King Arthur" at all. If he did exist, he was probably more of a general or a local warlord. There's also indications that Arthur was a mythical Welsh figure from before the Romans even arrived on Great Britain, which rather complicates the whole "was he a historical figure" thing given he's almost unanimously seen as having fought off the Angles and the Saxons, which were post-Roman Britain invasions.
But you know, how could King Arthur and his court have been so impactful on ideals of chivalry and courtly love if they hadn't truly existed in the first place? 🙄
King Arthur’s influence can be felt in contemporary times, too; the Fate video game/anime franchise gave the character a new lease on life, so to speak, by turning him into a female character, Saber.
The franchise does this (minus gender bending) to several legendary and/or fictional characters, including Gilgamesh.
And we’re talking about Japanese cultural products, very different from the culture that gave raise to King Arthur’s legend.
You should mix Frank’s “I find your lack of faith disturbing” quote into the Special Edition of your STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE recreation.
The only thing that comes in to my head, when Warner talks is. How many people are innocent in jail, because of him, Just like the tooth mark dude.
Wait, I thought Wallace was the investigative reporter. Maybe I'm getting him confused with somebody else.
I think the reporter is the twit Stroble.
@@kerianhalcon3557 you're getting your i's and a's mixed up.......
@@danielmartin5632 the first word I had used was more derogatory than even if I did have the i mixed up with an a, but I did not want to get to hostile toward the FuckTard.. Opps;)
It will always be funny to me that people engaged in apologia pretend (?) not to know how to pronounce Paulogia.
It's also not like Paul doesn't pronounce it at the start of every video he makes.
So, to qoute their own holy book: "they are without excuse"
Santa Clause has had huge cultural influence, yet is merely fictional.
I'm glad to hear some disdain in your voice as you explain what's going on here: I'm honestly not sure what other recourse there is when people like Wallace are so intent on not listening to the facts. I think a certain level of derision can help intensify the feelings of guilt and ostracization that people like Wallace must feel but try to suppress as they blatantly lie.
The profits from book sales and the inflated ego when going on apologists podcasts must help drown out the guilt.
Loved the video...my own nitpick is that Socrates is not an author, he's either a philosopher who is mentioned by other authors or he is only a character. If he did exist, scholars think that some of Plato's writting are using him as a character while other times Plato is paraphrasing things Socrates taught.
I think it’s reasonable to assert that Socrates was a real person, but he was against writing his thoughts down, because he insisted that the only way to convey his ideas was through a direct conversation.
Other people wrote about him though.
And yes, paraphrasing or using him as a character is almost a given.
Plato was more interested in capturing the core of Socrates’ philosophy, rather than writing his biography.
Wallace wants someone to name a fictional character with influence like Jesus. I give you the Egyptian gods. Their influence lasted for thousands of years, dominated a huge population and I’m sure Wallace would agree they are fictional. His only claim that Jesus beats that is based solely on the general rise in population right now. He’s only interested in today. The Greek gods, which I’m sure he would agree are fictional, also influenced a huge population for a long time though shorter than the Egyptian example. His claim is purely temporal without consideration that tomorrow his deity may go the way of these examples. The credit for Christianity’s ubiquitousness really goes to the church and it’s financial and political ambition rather than the uniqueness of Jesus or the quality of the evidence to support it..
Well done and thanks for your efforts.
"It's life Jim. But not as we know it."
Great content. Thoughtful videos like yours are a treasure.
Jesus was very influential in Christian culture that then spread through conquest, colonialism, and forced assimilation? Amazing. Who could have possibly guessed that would happen?
So were Alexander the Great and Mao Zedong.
Wallace asks for another fictional character with a similar level of popularity to Jesus. Santa Claus makes for an interesting discussion. Did he exist? It's quite likely. Does he have a huge impact on our culture for three months a year? Sure. But like Jesus of Nazareth, there's a wide gulf between the man we can confirm and the stories told by his present-day believers.
Less popular, but similarly influential is Hermes/Mercury. The guy or his caduceus is darn near everywhere. They're on medicine, tires, cars, etc... Dude even has a planet and an element named after him.
It's honestly more impressive that Herme's image and symbols have had so much reach without being attached to an active religion that tries to convert people to his worship like Christianity had.
There is no man we can confirm the name Jesus who the gospel stories are based about from the first industry
I really distrust this dude's entire career
Me: Jesus didn't sleep with your mother.
JW Wallace: "Oh really? Name another fictional character who was as influencial as Jesus, but didn't sleep with my mother! You hold the burden of proof."
To say that Paulogia is a thorn in the side of these two, and others, is a epic understatement
Funny, I don't even care about the bible per se, I'm just interested in how people can read so much into it and believe fanciful stuff with nothing but the often conflicting and messy stories to go by.
I find these videos so entertaining. Really well done stuff, and always with respect and humor.
I love that he placed him as a human being. Like an ancient cult leader
“The Bible” by Johannes Gutenberg was published in 1470 and has sold 5 billion copies over 552 years. This roughs out to 9m sales annually.
“Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone” by Jk Rowling was published in 1997 and has sold 120 million copies over 25 years. This roughs out to 5m sales annually.
This does not account for churches and gideons buying back from their own publishers to have content for pews and hotels, thus artificially elevating their numbers.
Thank you for this. I appreciate your clarity.
Amazing analysis once again Paulogia!
Ghenghis Khan is definitely also one of most influential people in history of the planet. Was he god?
Then there is that Muhammad guy - I think there may even be an up and coming religion based off what he's says. i could be wrong on that, though.
@@leob3447 Something rings a bell indeed.
Just like Lee Strobel, J Warner Wallace is _"into"_ apologetics for the money.
Min effort max reward. While being a mid tier apologist isn't going to make you mega rich you can definitely afford a comfortable life.
Love your narration’s ❤️🤩
I think we misunderstood. When he said he worked on a cold case he meant some beers.
I loved watching and listening.
I do wonder whether people like Mr Wallace can actually hear the critique and really think it through before defending themselves.
Sounds like Turek wants to sleep over at Wallace's house and snuggle up to him. One con-man being in awe of another con-man is pretty ugly to watch.
Thanks for the video :)
That thumbnail tho....ART.
5:40 "Jesus affected more than anyone...science". I would definitely give that to one of the greek guys...possibly more of them. Euclid's Elements has been a consistent source of learning for longer than the new testament.
How did he never lose a case?
This is so great Paul!!!
I've just got to say, your Star Wars compilation was epic. I also have to agree with the reviewers who say that apologists like JWW are doing a disservice to their faith. He believes because he wants to believe, not because of the 'evidence'.
"I don't typically engage with the folks who prove I'm full of shit, but I do learn from those folks how to lie more convincingly to my idiot audience." -Wally, getting as little right as usual, translated from Theistspeak to English.
Why the hell wouldn't a serious person engage with people who show your mistakes? But that's the thing, isn't it. Grifters and charlatans play that assumed superiority game. Serious people destroy criticism head-on, scumbags huddle with their idiot friends and quietly talk smack about their critics, bragging about how they can totally kick their ass but don't need to bother.
Wally doesn't realize that the 'quietly' part doesn't work if you upload it as a video. Get your nose-plugs out, kids; the stench of urine is going to follow in Wally's footsteps.
We need to stop saying "grant it's correct" and start saying "pretend it's correct" when moving forward logically on a dubious claim.
Great point, I hope I can remember this going forward. 🏅
Or "assume" it's correct. "Pretend" might anger your listener for no reason, given that it's almost as bad as "grant," when it comes to leaning one way or another. "Assume" says nothing about whether you believe it or not. It's a much more neutral word, don't you think?
@@Bill_Garthright yeah assume is a good word. Another good neutral word is posit or suppose.
17:20 Love your understated burn here Paul!
I appreciate your apt use of Barry Horowitz, Paul. Thanks for the deep cut chuckle.
You bet
So, his entire book is 100% the Appeal to Popularity logical fallacy?
Everything he's ever produced is fallacious in one way or the other.
Jesus is the most influential human being? Maybe, but the reason is not that he "rose from the dead", Frank. The reason is that the christian Church (the catholic church, that is) has imposed jesus for centuries through violence and death.
Don't forget childhood indoctrination.
...and colonialism
@@AsixA6 Yeah, i was sort of including that into the word "violence".
@@kenbee1957 yeah, i was sort of including all that into the word "violence".
If you're ranking human beings on a list of most to least "influential" - by whatever metric you want to use - then _someone_ is going to be on the top of that list. It's just inevitable. But does that mean the person _must_ be a god, then? Does it mean that person _must_ have rose form the dead? Of course not.
We can rank people, if we want. In nearly all cases, I would doubt the methodology and question the results. But none of that really matters when it comes to recognizing that _someone_ would be listed first on any list you wanted to make. And that's the case whether gods exist or they don't.
What if we rank people by body odor? Subjective, I know (and silly, of course). Does the top person on the list, the smelliest person, _have_ to be a god? (Admittedly, if he'd been dead for awhile, then came back to life, that could be a very good reason why he'd top the smelliest person list! I do have to give Christians _that_ much.)
Wallace's book achieves what it set out to do. It makes sense. Dollars and cents.
Paulogia, your the best!!!
Well done, Paulogia. As always.
EDIT: Turek's voice is distressing to me. He probably thinks that shouting his religious dribbble will make it more believable.
Hs pretend preacher voice!
Even assuming Jesus existed, he isn't even the most impactful person _in the Bible_ , let alone in history. There's a lot more of Paul in the New Testament than there is Jesus.
Furthermore, how many converts to this new religion did Jesus get? A dozen disciples, and maybe a few dozen more looser followers. Constantine converted tens of millions of people to Christianity - way more influential than Jesus.
Jesus is basically a bit-player in his own story.
I agree. A point worth emphasizing.
Fantastic work Paul
Thank you.
The first time I ran into J Warner Wallace on the internet was about 4 years ago. Back then, hardly anyone knew about him- but I remember thinking “why isn’t anyone challenging this guy?”
A few years later, and he’s getting debunked all over the place. It’s about time………payback’s a bitch.
Siddartha Gautama, known as the Buddha, has had an influence on society, art, literature and philosophy on the same scale as Jesus. The same problems of uncertainty about his factual existence, and whether his teachings are correctly represented in scripture, are very similar. For two and a half thousand years, images of Gautama and traditions have saturated most of Asia and beyond. J. Warner Wallace's arguments apply exactly the same way to him, just as much as Jesus.
But you know, eurocentrism and US-exeptionalism.
That intro 🙃😆
Love your dry humor
Jay Warner Wallace as Darth Vader in the thumbnail had me rolling 😂 😂
More like Dark Helmet, I think.
first seconds. I already assume that they TRIED to strike back. I edit this, if I was wrong.
It was you Paul. Deal with it 😁
Oh wait, you did. Never mind. Good work. Carry on :)
I'm glad you have patience for the dishonesty of apologists, because I no longer do.
What a great soundbite from Frank to demonstrate quote mining.