What's Inside Dan''s Fave Telecaster? [The Quest To Reproduce Red's Pickups]

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  • Опубликовано: 14 янв 2025

Комментарии • 274

  • @willgoodchild4343
    @willgoodchild4343 Месяц назад +65

    Any video with Matt in is a joy to watch. The man is a magician, his gear is awesome doesn’t matter what you buy from him it’s great!

  • @toms5951
    @toms5951 Месяц назад +21

    Watching Matt do his work and dismantle Red like that is a level of trust I can't imagine. I also can't imagine anyone else doing the work.

  • @gbarge4
    @gbarge4 Месяц назад +4

    I've been saving this one for a week. Incredible. How can there possibly be a dry eye in the house? It isn't just the measurements; it's the love. As Mick especially knows, I'm passionate about the brilliant techs, their knowledge, experience and attention to detail. A well set-up guitar can be life changing. All the praise (for all you three) is so richly deserved.

  • @neilwlevine
    @neilwlevine Месяц назад +26

    Beautiful video to watch. As much as I dislike the internet companies that ruin our lives, I have to be thankful that RUclips allows Matt to demonstrate his skills to such a large audience and that we get to enjoy over an hour of this intense guitar geekery.

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад +9

      EXACTLY how I feel about it. Mick here.

    • @JMunchen-wf2yj
      @JMunchen-wf2yj Месяц назад +1

      @@ThatPedalShowyup we all feel exactly this way. I’d say RUclips is at least the best of all the mediums at least. Great video as always gents!

  • @happihockey8601
    @happihockey8601 Месяц назад +7

    Dan is amazingly calm through this whole process, and it's cool that he remembers all the details of what he did years ago. Talk about knowing your gear, this is next level stuff and more proof of Dan's genius.

  • @wiffelballbat
    @wiffelballbat Месяц назад +5

    These arrived today - and they are extraordinary. The presentation is beyond pro, with the setup guide, stickers and the wrapping and all, but even if they were chucked into a used supermarket bag and thown at the door, the sound from these are so good I would be happy! Can't put the Tele down today, and it bearly got picked up before being just too thin and wiry sounding for me. Thanks for putting the time in so this can be shared by all - they are truly something special and I have never been as appreciative for something I have purchased before and felt the time seeping from it. Thanks all - I have to get back to the guitar now.....

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад

      Thank you! We’re stoked that you’re stoked!

  • @garygallagher7341
    @garygallagher7341 Месяц назад +68

    "Bright but thick" ...that's how I describe myself

  • @SteveSZ27
    @SteveSZ27 Месяц назад +4

    Totally geeked out on this! Nice job and a hearty well done to Matt!

  • @SC-wu2dn
    @SC-wu2dn Месяц назад +1

    Matt is incredible!!
    Mick and Dan are (IMHO) two of the most relevant people in the business. Their content is just brilliant!!!

  • @egg43002
    @egg43002 Месяц назад +4

    The attention to detail is superb. Matt is amazing.

  • @droliver
    @droliver Месяц назад +7

    Love Matt's appearances here and on Anderton's channel. Such a great communicator

  • @AndersKristofferson
    @AndersKristofferson Месяц назад +1

    This whole journey is just amazing! I think I need to watch this at least 3 more times to get all of the information to sink in my head. Dan, Mick and Matt are all such passionate professionals, and I still have so much to learn! Thanks for this!

  • @chrismathews6338
    @chrismathews6338 Месяц назад +1

    TPS Gold! Thank you Dan, Mick and of course Matt. Just learned so much watching this, nobody else puts out stuff like this 🙏

  • @simonhirstmusic
    @simonhirstmusic Месяц назад +1

    This is such a beaut of a project and video, crew! Loved the whole thing, but a special mention to the insert art Matt did. That’s beautiful! What a joyful project all round.

  • @ryangunwitch-black
    @ryangunwitch-black Месяц назад +6

    Ok. Last comment on this one.
    How incredibly cool. 30 limited wiring looms! Ongoing production of these Red pups. And the packaging and attention to detail. Just fantastic. I need some of that wrapping paper and TPS tissue paper for my collages. ❤❤❤

  • @MrApprobatur
    @MrApprobatur Месяц назад +4

    LOVED it! Congrats to everyone - especially Dan❤

  • @marki7661
    @marki7661 Месяц назад +4

    That was insanely fun to watch. Even the little scenes that were clearly filmed to make it feel like an episode of a 2008 reality show type of thing. I found myself smiling and failing to hold back from laughing several times throughout (while in public, like a psychopath on the back of the bus). Hope he officially made you an honorary member of Jesse and the Rippers lol. Another video proving is why this drum based channel is King.

  • @Lemontree1423
    @Lemontree1423 Месяц назад +3

    I love learning how little I know! Absolutely mind blowing.

  • @onenotesolo256
    @onenotesolo256 Месяц назад +4

    Matt is a genius. I have their looms in 3 or 4 guitars and the boldest strat pups in one guitar, and they sound awesome. And the care and attention ruin that goes into the parts and packaging is next level.

  • @Ramen4Days
    @Ramen4Days Месяц назад +4

    From humble guitar nerd and pedalboard router to having meticulous historic recreations of your favorite gear. It’s a very cool day for you, Dan.

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад

      Cheers mate, yeah, pretty great 👍

  • @bllyfen8
    @bllyfen8 Месяц назад +2

    Red has that thing that I love in a guitar, it punches clean through everything on top of it. So distinct.

  • @billj5301
    @billj5301 Месяц назад +1

    Man that was amazing. It’s so cool to see someone like Matt pouring the love into something like that. Going to buy some Bethnal Green’s for Xmas now!

  • @andsoistopped
    @andsoistopped Месяц назад +4

    We are going full Full Monty with a long form video. Ambassador you are spoiling us. It is evident from the launch video that there be magic in Matt’s hands and ears. Science of course but there is something that comes from just having experience over years and years of making stuff. Tremendous.

  • @Blakeness84
    @Blakeness84 Месяц назад +1

    What a great video. Matt really knows his stuff, very thorough, detailed & the end product sounded spot on in recreating Red's pickups. I have Monty's PAF's in my Les Paul & since having them installed my Les Paul has never sounded better. Add to that, the way the pickups are packed up with the wax stamp, ribbons & presentation box, buying a set of Monty's pickups are more of an experience rather than a regular purchase. I've bought many pickups from various different companies, I've never seen pickups packaged in the way Monty's pack them.

  • @theshamannik
    @theshamannik Месяц назад +1

    And by the way this is one of the BEST videos you put out and I been watching from the beginning, thanks

  • @santiagobrispalmer
    @santiagobrispalmer Месяц назад +1

    I can feel your pasion and happiness along the video!!!
    The fact that every person will be able to work on what he or she wants is the best way, I think...
    Congratulations!!! ❤️✨

  • @dmac-333
    @dmac-333 Месяц назад +1

    Wow. What a great show. Matt goes to the nth degree, it makes a huge difference to a brand. Mick, superb editing. Dan congrats.

  • @TheBlund1971
    @TheBlund1971 Месяц назад +2

    Your panache is incredulous. When I received TPS T-shirts, I was amazed at the packaging and presentation of your wares. First class. Thank you for the informative video. I enjoyed it very much. Cheers from USA!

  • @ToddTheJoker
    @ToddTheJoker Месяц назад +1

    This was amazing to watch and listen to! I think Matt did a great job replicating Red's sound! I also can see the lovely darkened sheen on the fretboard of Matt's tele that only Montypresso Guitar Relic wax can produce and I know that because I use it on ALL of my guitars!!!! lol...Thanks guys !!!! great job!

  • @soundetc
    @soundetc Месяц назад +1

    So much interesting info in this one!, well done and congratz on the repro of Red's pups...really special!

  • @franklinbaker2088
    @franklinbaker2088 Месяц назад +1

    I ordered my set day one. Missed the loom window but I’m so excited to put these in my tele. Fantastic video and what a treat after thanksgiving.

  • @rodvella-iq4so
    @rodvella-iq4so Месяц назад +1

    An amazing rabbit hole!! Congrats guys!

  • @goswo
    @goswo Месяц назад +3

    Matt is a magician. What a creative soul 😇😇

  • @gregsteffey1266
    @gregsteffey1266 Месяц назад +3

    Great to see people with this much passion and attention to detail. I thought he did a great job recreating those. Considered it’s a different guitar with different wood, they sounded super close. I thought the bridge was spot on and neck was a touch different. I agree, I don’t think you could get any closer.

  • @johnny.musician
    @johnny.musician Месяц назад +1

    This episode is so cool! As many of us have followed Mick and Dan over the years, we’ve also followed guitars like Red, Butters, Blue and others.
    Thanks for letting us in on these cool pickups, guys. I have the One Tele to Rule Them All so I don’t need them, but I could be tempted…lol.

  • @stevemaass3074
    @stevemaass3074 Месяц назад +1

    Really enjoyed this. So cool to watch the collaboration of artist and craftsman.

  • @djangle67
    @djangle67 Месяц назад +5

    Red: N 58:34. B 59:41.
    B 1:00:18. N 1:01:01.
    Sparkle:N 59:02. B 59:57.
    B 1:00:43. N 1:01:18.

  • @curtdupriez3775
    @curtdupriez3775 Месяц назад +1

    So many fascinating elements to this video. Bravo!

  • @MR_Robbers
    @MR_Robbers Месяц назад +1

    Matt, what a wonderful job you did there! Bravo! Dan!~ Dan! That thing is a ringer man. Your dynamics are spot on....and when Mick picked it up at 1:03:15 and A-B'd the two I have too say...

  • @TraneFrancks
    @TraneFrancks Месяц назад +1

    Spectacular. Really chuffed to see this. Makes me pine for my old Tele.

  • @Bimmer2047
    @Bimmer2047 Месяц назад +10

    One of the legends I heard on the magnet bevel was Leo had an order of magnets come in that were chipped the corners and Leo being Leo said don’t through them away just bevel the corners and use them

    • @steveatron12345
      @steveatron12345 Месяц назад +2

      Was about to make the same comment, John Suhr said it once. Also they changed the cooling process of the magnets and he thought that affected the tone, well Michael Landau did when he was making pickups for him.

    • @passionplayer7
      @passionplayer7 Месяц назад +1

      Here to say the same! John Suhr mentioned on Tone Talk how Leo wasn't going to throw those magnets away with the chips. on the end, so they just beveled them! haha

  • @adalbertoschuckjr.1509
    @adalbertoschuckjr.1509 Месяц назад +4

    Just some observations:
    1) An LCR meter is easy to buy and provides measurements of Inductance which is a stronger indicator of pickup behaviour than resistence alone . Just a hint to Matt reachs consistence in his (amazing) craft...
    2) The bevel on the top of magnets tends to focus (narrows) more the magnectic field through the string above it. Effect similar to a taller bobbin (as explained here); Now, with that strong magnet, you heard the effect. One of the Red's secrets;
    3) Isn't Rose so sweet? 😍Best companion dog ever...🥰
    So, all in all, it is a very beautiful job done. If it wasn't our (Brazilian) Importation policies and fees, I bouth a set right now.
    KUDOS....

  • @sferguson1130
    @sferguson1130 Месяц назад +1

    I find these videos fascinating to watch and I always learn something. I also feel very blessed, to not be compelled after 25+ years of playing, to chase tone down this deep of a rabbit hole. It all sounds exhausting lol.

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад +1

      Ha! Yep. Mick here. I guess we all go through our tone chasing days, arrive at a place - eventually - and stop. But until you get there, chase away!

    • @sferguson1130
      @sferguson1130 Месяц назад

      @ Amen! Lol

  • @jrchanning
    @jrchanning Месяц назад +1

    What a fascinating look into the process of cloning the pickups in Dan's RED Tele, excellent video 👍🎸😃

  • @astewart9410
    @astewart9410 Месяц назад +2

    Labour of love fully realized. Beautiful!

  • @henninghesse9910
    @henninghesse9910 Месяц назад +1

    What a fun to watch and what a great guy!

  • @bruunm1975
    @bruunm1975 Месяц назад

    Matt is such a gem, amazingly talented and likeable human!

  • @davidburke2132
    @davidburke2132 Месяц назад +1

    I’m a pickup geek (and a big fan of Monty’s) so this was fascinating!! Thanks guys!
    To add to Dan’s joke… there’s also the famous grouse reading, which tells you how much whisky you’re supposed to drink whilst playing your guitar 😉

  • @VisualGuy
    @VisualGuy Месяц назад +2

    Man... I've demo'd like 250 pickup sets on my channel (and some of Matt's) and I was expecting these to be like 95% and the difference being the guitar... But I cannot hear the difference. At all. Very, very well done guys. I'm going to email Matt immediately! I want a set for my Danocaster!

  • @JMunchen-wf2yj
    @JMunchen-wf2yj Месяц назад

    To my ear the pickups are pretty much bang on in terms of their characteristics - the difference is coming from Monty’s guitar, the wood and finish and tuners, bridge saddles and all that jazz are always going to change up the sound a little. But you’re so right in the ball park that it’s just amp tweaking at this stage to preference. Totally nailed it Monty’s the real deal for sure.

  • @bonestockrotorary
    @bonestockrotorary Месяц назад +1

    This is awesome! Time to do the sunburst strat pickups!

  • @careycrash9916
    @careycrash9916 Месяц назад +1

    I have an 2001 CS red double bound tele and can verify these are amazing. I wasn’t even looking for a tele when I bought mine

  • @vince8081
    @vince8081 Месяц назад

    It's really impressive, congrats guys !

  • @robzagar4275
    @robzagar4275 Месяц назад

    Love the channel men! Keep up the good work. Thank you

  • @bradschutz9401
    @bradschutz9401 Месяц назад +1

    This was so geeky and I loved every second of it 🧡

  • @BrentGrowe
    @BrentGrowe Месяц назад

    This was awesome! great work, Matt, Dan, and Mick! 🍻

  • @BadMotivator66
    @BadMotivator66 Месяц назад +3

    The morning after the release of the preview vid, i happened to be in my local rehearsal rooms/tech’s gaff and as he closed the door, behind it was hanging a tele I didn’t recognise. I’d previously tried all of the teles he had and didn’t take to them. This thing was a humble b stock squier (affinity or bullet). I take it down and strum it. Immediately the neck felt ‘right’ and the thinner body wrapped around me. Needless to say it came home with me :D i hated teles for years but this thing just rings! Even unplugged i was coming up with ideas and riffs that excited me. So… NGD!…. Dan’s fault :p also Rosie is an absolute sweetheart

  • @JohnSmith-ym4sl
    @JohnSmith-ym4sl Месяц назад +1

    Fantastic episode! Through my iPhone speakers they both sound identical….lol will watch again with proper headphones!

  • @sferguson1130
    @sferguson1130 Месяц назад

    Imagine doing all this, with Dan sitting across from you 🤣 Matt’s next level

  • @Bruhaha9
    @Bruhaha9 Месяц назад +1

    Thanks fer da knowledge, Matt.

  • @JakeClarke-e1j
    @JakeClarke-e1j Месяц назад

    You guys! An amazing journey to watch. Thanks for sharing it 🤗

  • @tomlundholm
    @tomlundholm Месяц назад

    Wonderful! Well done! 👏

  • @samthebarber93
    @samthebarber93 Месяц назад

    Monty’s would sit pretty in a mix behind a good singer. Red would melt your face every time you play a lick. 65’ is a nice all round tele tone that would suit any rock band, very honky and rich and the black scratch plate one has a voice only comparable to an old pedal steel guitar. That one would be a perfect lead guitar choice for a country player. Great video!

  • @RICO_SUAVE21
    @RICO_SUAVE21 Месяц назад +1

    This was pretty awesome!!!😊

  • @andsoistopped
    @andsoistopped Месяц назад +6

    Dicky Tickerrrr. That’s the first Allo Allo reference I think on any TPS video. 😂

    • @Simon_V_RDJ
      @Simon_V_RDJ Месяц назад +1

      I can't wait for....zeee flashing...knobs....

  • @Godsman1982
    @Godsman1982 Месяц назад

    LOVE this. Have to get a set

  • @Matthewtaylorn
    @Matthewtaylorn Месяц назад +2

    I think Dan should put the prototypes in Red 🤩. I think the slight smile in the eq is actually a bit more musical and might make for a bit more versatile guitar. I've had a set of Matt's '53 tele pickups. He's the best at what he does. A good balance between scientific measurements, and ear based intuition.

  • @marianne7659
    @marianne7659 Месяц назад +5

    Happy to see that Dan is back 🎸

  • @rated_r_k_stevo
    @rated_r_k_stevo Месяц назад +1

    Incredible job by all. Making me want to go buy a Tele just to get a set!

  • @TMKXL
    @TMKXL Месяц назад +2

    The 65 telecaster sounds so beautiful! Much more wood in the tone as is mentioned by Dan, more softer and warmer tone but with just the right amount of bite/sharpness and a vintage round bell like clarity. My favourite of all Dan's guitars!

  • @ryangunwitch-black
    @ryangunwitch-black Месяц назад +1

    19:30 By the end of this part, I’m convinced all three will do the damn thing!❤

  • @GuitarTeacheronyoutube
    @GuitarTeacheronyoutube Месяц назад

    Dan and Mick,
    Dan's tele resembles a strat sound. Also, Dan's red tele seems to have a sound often caused by loose wiring, slight volume dips, 16:54. Loose wires may cause "Red" to have less low end. Perhaps the soldering was not accurate or has been changed over time. The low end seems to drop out like a tremolo pedal. I would check the names, age, and info written on the components.
    39:23 According to Don Mare on a Gear Page post, "308 is not a Model - its "MARCH 2008" Stelly is (was the Strat in a Tele cover ) Discontinued now. his Bridge, Super Sport in a overwind 7.5k." So the pickups seem to be a strat sound.

  • @ArchitexMaze75
    @ArchitexMaze75 Месяц назад +1

    Having heard red in anger on a couple of occasions i can confirm its a beast of a sounding thing!

  • @Haciendamann
    @Haciendamann Месяц назад +9

    I actually prefer Sparkle over Red for it's tone is fuller and more airy as open to my ears (more 50s style) whereas Red has a slightly flatter bass response but thicker, beefier trebles (rather 60s-ish); when can I come over and pick it up...?

  • @andyw6026
    @andyw6026 Месяц назад

    The difference in EQ has to be down to the sparkly paint surely.... 😀. Great episode. Thank you TPS

  • @sleekslush
    @sleekslush Месяц назад +2

    The pickups def are a huge factor. But don’t rule out the saddles .. steel/titanium is going to definitely have a big impact

  • @paulsummerside
    @paulsummerside Месяц назад

    There were differences when the pickups were put in Silver, to the Originals in Red, but that attack…. Wow. Btw. Really love the sound of Butters, that was played for an additional comparison . Amazing project. Very tempting to get myself a third Telecaster to fit these. Mainly because I love my Japanese JD Telecaster & my Mexican Telecaster, with its early Bareknuckle Pickups & wouldn’t want to alter those.

  • @PaulMcCaffreyfmac
    @PaulMcCaffreyfmac Месяц назад +1

    I have Monty's PAFs on my Tokai 335-a-like and they have changed it from cheap and cheerful to outstanding sounding.

  • @13aphomet
    @13aphomet Месяц назад +1

    What a fantastic product.. Now I just need a telecaster..

  • @wesleymorris1
    @wesleymorris1 Месяц назад +1

    Ive noticed from winding 100s of pickups, shorter tight coil with a mixture of scatter and non scatter produces a more snappy, punchy sound. Taller coils are more neutral sounding. How tight you hold the wire, is very important. My winding machine has no guide or tensioner. It took me a long time to get consistent. Now I got a process I do and it produces the best pickups I've ever played. I'm not just saying that with a big head, I been through 20 or 30 different strat pickups on the market and haven't found one to beat my handwound ones. For years my strat pickups where always mid scooped and way bright till I figured out the recipe.

  • @collinsmith6565
    @collinsmith6565 Месяц назад

    Long time viewer/subscriber, rarely comment but just wanted to remark to you Dan, your playing has evolved so much from the early days. It lovely to hear your progress! Hats off to yall as always and love from NC, USA

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад +1

      Ah mate, thanks so much, really appreciate it 🤓🙏

  • @1rondark
    @1rondark Месяц назад +1

    Even more respect to Matt

  • @Paulo-ze1tl
    @Paulo-ze1tl Месяц назад +2

    In my experience, 7.25" won't choke out with low action provided the fret job was done particularly well, which seems to be the case with Red. At 1.2mm on the high E, I wouldn't be surprised if the radius stayed at 7.25". Will continue watching, perhaps I'm proven wrong.

  • @wildbill7
    @wildbill7 Месяц назад

    just beyond cool! Loved it.

  • @DeadReckoner
    @DeadReckoner Месяц назад +1

    Matt rewire some guitars for me earlier in the year - great guy who does great work!

  • @darryltolbert8950
    @darryltolbert8950 Месяц назад +1

    I love teles! Great show! Red sounds scoopy in upper mids maybe?

  • @grantbuchanan3616
    @grantbuchanan3616 Месяц назад +1

    Brilliant!!

  • @stephengaren2219
    @stephengaren2219 Месяц назад +4

    I mod all my guitars, mostly. Don't care about resale value. My favorite is a Strat that I built out of various parts myself. You connect with certain guitars more than others. I sound like me regardless of the guitar, pickups, amp, effects, etcetera. Dan's pickups sound good though.

  • @raul2050
    @raul2050 Месяц назад +1

    The mystery remains unsolved. Some say that the neck is the part of the guitar that most influences the tone given the proximity of the strings to the wood. Anyway the new pickups sound great

  • @periloustemple8290
    @periloustemple8290 Месяц назад

    Speechless!

  • @Pepino2017
    @Pepino2017 Месяц назад +1

    Excitedly waiting for my pair to arrive. Anyone else from the U.S. snag a set?

    • @BeefNEggs057
      @BeefNEggs057 Месяц назад +1

      Nope. Just you. Good luck.

  • @rogerYT69
    @rogerYT69 Месяц назад +1

    sounds like a tele😊 cool video ...

  • @chrisjohnstone6164
    @chrisjohnstone6164 Месяц назад

    Bonkers! I loved Matt's Silver Sparklecaster raw sound .. just beautiful.. that loose breakup is what yum .. but you know what, I don't play loud in a band so wtf do I know 🤣 I guess I love fluffy bottoms 😮

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад

      Yeah, what a great sounding guitar 🤓🙏

  • @nonemlinus
    @nonemlinus 10 дней назад +1

    Wow! They really do sound the same (through undersea cables, RUclips, my headphones, my perception…:)). They really do.

    • @nonemlinus
      @nonemlinus 10 дней назад

      Pretty amazing work and love put into this project. Matt’s the man!!

  • @dougmishoe1336
    @dougmishoe1336 Месяц назад +1

    Love when you have Matt on the show!

  • @ryangunwitch-black
    @ryangunwitch-black Месяц назад +2

    51:52 😂It means the same as it does here. Most of what I do is rinky-dink! ❤

    • @superfly6790
      @superfly6790 Месяц назад

      I think it originated from the US. The first time I heard it was from the pink panther show theme tune.

  • @andrewdaw6050
    @andrewdaw6050 Месяц назад +2

    Definitely going to buy a set. And be massively disappointed when I still don't sound anything like Dan playing red 😂

    • @BeefNEggs057
      @BeefNEggs057 Месяц назад

      Dan won’t sound like you either.

  • @PerpetuallyTiredMusician
    @PerpetuallyTiredMusician Месяц назад

    I am gonna blaspheme here, I really like the 52 CS personally more than any of the others soundwise. Not saying its better its just more musically pleasing to my ear. Love these videos and all the work you do. Also a day at montys caught on video is always the absolute best!
    Peace

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  Месяц назад +2

      It’s great isn’t it. Some people prefer the 52, some people prefer Red, some the 65 and some like Matt’s silver guitar the best. Just proves that it’s all subjective and it’s all good!

  • @Barracuda007
    @Barracuda007 Месяц назад +2

    well this my friday night sorted! :D

  • @birdman316
    @birdman316 Месяц назад

    man ive always loved the sound of the "red" tele!
    to me it has that "pink paisley" vibe to it...possibly the best sounding tele in you guys shop/filming location!
    dano was looking a bit nervous as matt started the "teardown/measuring/specing" bit lol!
    im sure matt put red back precisely how she was when he started...even left the dirt n dust alone as well!
    id love to see/hear red VS a pink paisley re issue comparison to see where the 2 sweet teles stack up to each other....im betting it will be a tie!