Let's Talk About SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE'S REPUTATION
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
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Super Mario Sunshine Retrospective
Super Mario Sunshine Review
#mario #nintendo #gamecube
Really excited for this. This was my first 3D Mario game. I understand why this game is a black sheep, but it will always have a special place in my heart.
I think I'll be doing the game justice. I'm still wrapping it up though so we'll see how I get through the end game haha
Same with me! The Mario from the sunshine era will always be *the* Mario to me ☀️ ❤️
Sunshine has always been my favourite of the 3D Mario games for odd reasons. Whilst it’s undoubtedly a hard game and I’ve never been able to beat it, but I’ve always loved the lengths they went through to make Isle Delfino feel like a real place. So many charming little details and secrets, and really it’s a miracle the game was released in an (almost) finished state given how drastically it differed from the prototype shown only a year prior. Plus it gave us many great Mario characters like Bowser Jr. Toadsworth, Petey Piranha and Gooper Blooper.
I often think about how spoiled we are if this is the unfinished and rushed game of the series lol
I must be one of the only people alive that loves the blue coin system all these years later. I would almost say it’s my fav part of the game.
It's still early because I'm running through it. But I think the blue coins in concept are good, that just need a bit of tweaking. But the blue coin experience is much more similar to odyssey than anything else imo
Truth be told, I can't really identify any one issue with sunshine that made it so hard for me to play as a kid. I think you said it best, it just got so incredibly rushed that none of the things it was known for were ever fine tuned enough to make work as well as they really could and should have been. I feel like just one extra year of tweaking would have made it way better than it turned out.
Honestly the further along I get the more I think the biggest deterrent for this game most be how much whiplash those early secret area shines gave lol. It's so abrupt of an early game difficulty spike
Not to mention that some of the coins are in different places in different levels (one in particular being one in the lake of Bianca hills) and others are so obscure in what needs to be done to get them that most players, casual or otherwise, wouldn’t think to even try because there’s no indication of what to do (the casino coins). Nowadays, it wouldn’t be that much of an issue with the internet as big as it is, but back when this game was released, many, if not most, people likely were on their own to figure that stuff out
I think Scott the Woz mentioned how although Fludd was a creative gimmick, a lot of the time he's just used to correct and adjust Mario's jumps, which I can understand.
Overall I have a soft spot for this game, despite not having played it much as a kid like I did with SM64DS.
I don't think I fully agree with that lol. I think Fludd, for me at least, is mostly used to reach locations I shouldn't be reaching. It's funny to experiment with it
Ah, Super Mario Sunshine. This was the first 3D Mario game I owned after our family purchased a Gamecube. I had no real context of Super Mario 64 prior due to missing out on the N64; the most exposure I had with it was playing around with our cousins' save file whenever we paid them a visit. Studying the manual I learned the more advanced tricks the game had to offer (I wasn't one to talk to NPCs a lot at the time).
I wasn't an NPC person either lol. Still not. Manuals are where it's at, and today, worst case scenario I'll Google to see if there's anything I haven't learned yet lol
Sunshine is the best. I got to do half the OST for Eclipse and it was a dream. Sunshine speedrunning and modding are in their prime and it's amazing.
@@stevenshockley4237 yo that's really cool! How did you end up being part of that project? I just looked up some of the tracks and they since like they could be part of the main game OST
@NintenDeen I had been hanging around the team for a while on Discord, and one musician left leaving just Trevor. Trevor got to around half before he had to take a support role dye to life priorities and other projects. So me never having done a game OST, was like "Ight, I got this, I'll do the other half."
I had only played real instruments until then, so I learned FL Studio very quick and grinded hard to get a great half.
That's so cool lol. Well done, hopefully more opportunities in the future (if you enjoyed it!)
@NintenDeen Oh I did. I'm already working on the OST for Super Mario Elements, another Sunshine mod still early in development.
Most people's issues with Sunshine don't really effect me personally considering there isn't any tangible reason to go for 100% completion beyond it just being nigh impossible without a guide. It's a really fun enjoyable game for a casual playthrough every summer.
Agreed! That's the beauty of bonus content! if you want more, it's there
2002: Sunshine is too different
2023: TOTK is too similar
That's how it goes haha
True. It’s never good enough for people lol
if you played the game as a kid, the controls really aren't that bad because you're used to it. it's the same thing as mario 64.
I can agree. The longer I play sunshine the more I enjoy it. Learning curve just takes a second to get through
Sunshine was the first Mario title I didn't want to 100%. What a fun yet frustrating game.
It's the Sonic Unleashed of 3D Mario 🤣
@@NintenDeen Or maybe even Sonic 06 of 3D Mario lol
I don't think it's as Broken as 06. Actually this is a fun idea. The worst of the 3D Mario games is about as bad and unfinished as probably Sonic Heroes. Heroes is probably not even bottom 5 for 3D Sonic.
When I compared it to Unleashed it's because Unleashed is hell to 100%. But Unleashed was by all accounts a complete game lol
@@NintenDeen I have heard good things about Heroes but never played that game or Unleashed. I do like poking fun at 06 whenever I get the chance
Maybe I will get a chance to play those two Sonic games at some point and see if Unleashed is as hard/annoying to 100% as what everyone says
I will definitely be watching your Sunshine series. I loved this game a lot as a kid, and I had a fight with some of my friends in high school where I defended this game hard. But in college, my roommate said something with me that really got me rethinking the game. He had never owned it, and was really excited to play it, and he asked what the point of collecting Shine Sprites was.
In Mario 64, every single star holds the same value to you - it brings you one step closer to the 70 Star requirement to beat the game. In Sunshine, you only need 49 specific Shines to beat the game. The other 71 are completely irrelevant unless you're 100%ing the game, which is a chore due to tracking down all the Blue Coins. This feels really misguided to me, I think the game having all these required missions is a bad design choice. This got me thinking about a lot of Sunshine's other design choices, and I started questioning the Red Coins and 100 Coin missions - in Mario 64, these were great challenges. They tested the player's knowledge of the level layout - can you safely traverse these obstacle courses and collect 8 Red Coins/100 Coins without dying? But since Red Coins don't spawn until their mission in Sunshine, the player cannot possibly know their layout, which kind of defeats the purpose of the Coins IMO. 100 Coin missions have a similar issue, since Coin layouts vary from mission to mission, the player never has a chance to actually learn the layout in a level and sometimes you can get like 90 or so coins only to find that you CAN'T collect 100 Coins in the mission you selected.
Of course, even if you fix this issue, then you're faced with the other big issue in Sunshine - the game never WANTS you to explore the levels in the first place. You learned these level layouts in Mario 64 because you could collect Stars out of order, which meant that the player had a tangible reward for exploring. But since the player has to do missions in order in Sunshine, and anything you find in the level like a Secret Shine or a Blue Coin holds no real extrinsic value to the player, it feels like a waste of time to explore the environments. It's like they made 64-esque levels but the missions are structured more like Galaxy, and the two styles just don't mesh well IMO.
I still like Sunshine. I'm very intrinsically motivated to explore, and I like the aesthetic and the atmosphere of the game. But I think 64 was just a better thought out experience. Sunshine has these weird quirks like levels and mission structures being at odds with each other that were already resolved 6 years earlier in Mario 64, there's really no reason they should have gotten it so wrong in Sunshine. This isn't enough to completely ruin Sunshine for me, but it sticks out and gives the game a very unfinished feel IMO, especially compared to the two games surrounding it which both feel significantly more polished to me.
This is really well thought out. I don't want to spoil my thoughts completely because I'm still working through the end game and writing scripts. But basically the way I see it is the 49 Stars are the action-adventure 3D platformer. Everything outside of that is the bonus content/collectathon. I think it's the philosophy they somewhat wanted in 64 but decided to guide players a bit more for Sunshine and it didn't quite go into full fruition.
red coins in mario sunshine are hide and seek, in 64 they are a collactathon. not one is better over the other, theres merit to both. same for 100 coins.
sunshines not about learning the level, but learning the environment. if you know the area hunting the coins is fun.
the missions take you on an exploration so i got no idea why you say thea dont want you to explore...?
and the mission structure was the only way with how different each mission is. try fitting all pianta village shines into one and its a bloated mess. levels change, and i felt a much stronger connection to the environment than i did with 64. funnily enough how u describe sunshine is how i feel about 64 at times.
i think this is just about refering one over the other, and not liking that the other is different.
When I was younger, about 6 maybe I had this game and would play it on my Wii all the time. I think the most amount shines I could get was 30 something. I remember the secret stages were the death of me. I wasn’t able to get past the first secret level in Bianco. I never beat the blooper race in Rico Harbor. I never defeated Meca-Bowser. But I kept coming back, even when I was stuck. There’s just something about this game that I’ve always been fascinated with
Signs of a good game that wasn't properly QC'ed lol. It's fun to just run around and search but then you have these obnoxious roadblocks that either you're gonna beat yourself up to pass, or you're just gonna skip them. If they didn't require episode 7 in every stage you'd still have been able to beat the game lol
I played this game three times through when it first came out, I love it!
I did really enjoy Mario Sunshine. The controls took some getting used to, but it allowed for several moves that were otherwise impossible. I dreaded the stages where shadow Mario took away FLUDD, because I was so used to the movement of Mario with FLUDD.
What bothered me the most about Mario Sunshine though is the fact that almost half of the sprites were used about collecting coins. (100 golden coins, 10 blue coins, 8 red coins). I know Mario 64 had coin-related missions, but it was usually 2 stars per level (100 golden coins and 8 red coins). Here every level has several 8 red coin missions, as well 30 blue coins (accounting for 3 sprites). To me it somehow lacked the variety that the other 3D Mario games had.
Still it was a very fun game to play (both back then, and now). I can't wait to watch the videos and see your take on Mario Sunhine
I'm still working through some later scripts but I'm definitely enjoying the game a lot more now than I did the first time I played it. The tight controls take long to get used to but man they're fun once you start screwing around haha
Oh my god you perfectly encapsulated my thoughts on blue coins. If they were all in episode 8 they’d be great, the problem is there are some only available in certain episodes and you can’t track what ones you’ve found
Very excited for a Super Mario Sunshine series as it is my favorite Mario game! I can imagine F.L.U.D.D. is annoying for people who haven't played the game enough to adjust to, but beforehand, I guess I didn't really think of that. I always thought F.L.U.D.D. just added a unique touch to standard Mario gameplay.
Fludds only downfall is the learning curve imo. This game is so much more enjoyable the longer you play lol
@NintenDeen Totally agree!
It was never a bad game. Just too different for most people to accept.
The best Mario game
For me, a big frustration with sunshine is the level design and how the controls interact with the game world. I will preface this by saying i have yet to do a run of sunshine beyond noki bay - but the way mario controls does not mesh well with the world design at all for me personally. Rico harbor has the worst of this to my memory as every time i tried to do that stage fully it was beyond frustrating. No other mario game really pushed my buttons with the learning curve as bad as sunshine routinely does and i think thats a big reason why completion of this game is far from something im itching to do, let alone beating bowser.
It's off putting at first but I will say it grows on me the longer I play. Back when I first played 3D All-stars by the time I made it to Galaxy it felt a bit underwhelming to play after Sunshine lol. Was too calm 🤣. And mind you I played Galaxy on its release day and have fully completed a bunch of times
Perfect timing for these Sunshine videos to release, I am playing the game now after finishing the Mario 64 and getting all the stars in that game
First time? I'm curious if you felt you had to make a big adjustment in the controls lol
@@NintenDeen I never got a chance to play Sunshine until recently. Maybe I will make some adjustments to the controls later on but it doesn’t feel so weird I have to do it immediately. I do think game is kinda more janky than SM64 sometimes lol
For a example parts of the game where you lose Fludd and have to do platforming. I swear I died in those platform levels more than I should have.
It's the slope detection. Absolutely ruins half those stages for me
@@NintenDeen Maybe. That could be reason why I kept falling off stuff
Also yeah, I tend to be the kinda guy that goes through everything a stage has to offer before moving on, stage by stage, usually in order... but lately, I've felt like switching things up a bit, y'know? In some replays of collectathons, sometimes I'll try to always advance when I have enough shinies to move on, especially when the stages boot me out after each one. It's my way of studying the game's rate of progression, really.
Sunshine doesn't quite offer that degree of flexibility, since you always need to get the 7th Shine of each course... but by also not locking the last level behind amount of Shines, there's also no good reason to fully beat a stage as much as you can before moving on, it's a weird middle ground, and it's only this extreme of a middle ground because the shines you are required to get are the 7th ones, not earlier shines like the third ones or so. Like, it always asks you 70% of your time for a stage, it never asks for just 10% nor gives reason to ask for 100%.
Still, going only for the required shines seems to be the best way to enjoy the game anyways! So, once I decide to play it, that's probably what I'll do, and then I'll rage about the Pachinko XD
Why wait for the pachinko to rage when you can access the watermelon shine way sooner!
@NintenDeen oh boy, true...
MOM WAKE UP HE'S BACK
I love this game
mario sunshine is my favorite mario game because i've mastered it and it's glitches. i like skipping the tedious segments like the casino and riding to the island with yoshi to unlock the lillypad level using out of bounds glitches. the fact that i'm cheating gives me such a thrill.
I can easily see Sunshine as a game that is more enjoyable when you learn how to break it.
Sort of like Odyssey in that regard, where you see something in the distance and debate whether or not you can make it there and are rewarded for the effort
For me, Super Mario Sunshine is one of the best Mario games and one of my favorites. Of course, it has its flaws, like all games, no one is perfect, but the important thing is that it gives you fun and that you have good experiences. As for the 100% thing, yes, it's true that it can be frustrating, but doing 100% is if you choose to do it, the game doesn't force you.
Your last point is a key aspect. There are tons of games with terrible end games, but for some reason Mario games are judged based on their 120 star run. It must be the standard M64 set? Idk
I just crave to play this game.. it’s unexplainable
Super mario Bros 2 was the original polarizing mario game.
Was it polarizing at launch? I feel like it was only briefly polarizing around the 2000s lol
The goat game has finally arrived
🐐🐐🐐
this bouta make me turn my gamecube on
The cube beckons
I think if you swapped Sunshine and Galaxy’s release date, and swapped Wind Waker and Twilight Princess’ (Even if it had the Melee/Space World demo art style) release dates, Nintendo wouldn’t have been so soundly defeated in the 6th generation. I think PS2 would’ve still been on top, but not to the degree it was.
I was 10 when the 6th generation started and remember what sold me. I was almost a GameCube kid because I was a diehard N64 kid. But I, like a lot of people at the time looked at the lineup and thought “I don’t wanna clean 💩 up and why is the new Zelda a baby game?” especially after I liked the look of the Melle characters
Was that an immature way to look at it? Yes. But I *was* the target audience. I liked Goldeneye and remembered playing Quake on my dad’s computer so I went to Xbox for the shooters.
I also think Sunshine should’ve been a spin-off, similar to 3D World
Funnily enough I think the main reason I never got a GameCube was because the Dreamcast came out sooner and had that crazy price drop. N64 is still until now my most treasured console, but I had 0 interest in the Cube. I didn't even realize it had good games until like a decade later lol. Based on commercials I thought Sunshine was another spinoff like Luigi's Mansion so I didn't feel like I was missing out on either of them.
I think there was a chance I might have grabbed a GameCube later on in its lifecycle but my brother got a PS2 for dirt cheap for our sports game fixes, and I got an Xbox to play halo 2 online with my friends in 2004ish. Never felt the need to get the GameCube at that point. We had super monkey ball deluxe and that fulfilled our multiplayer cravings that Mario games would have provided. And we had power stone 2 and Kung Fu Chaos that replaced smash bros for us for a while lol. Plus we had GBAs and DS's. The Wii obviously dragged me back in though.
Sunshine is essentially the Zelda 2 of the Mario series. It's too different from the original and most people disliked it.
Which is crazy to me because it's not even THAT different lol
Sunshine is a really weird game for me. I used to love it as a kid because of how weird it was, but I’ve soured on it in recent years. There are some things I still really love about the game and there are some things about the game that absolutely piss me off. Me and my friends like to say that we want to love the game, but the game really doesn’t love us back
That's a funny way to think of it lol. It has retro game difficulty. In many ways it reminds me of losing my mind playing mega man
The Chucksters are funny and all, but having a whole mission based on them probably wasn’t a good idea
I strangely never minded the chucksters lol. It was less egregious than a majority of the secret challenge areas
Hold down the fludd spray and press jump for back flip btw 😂😂
Huh. TIL. I'll have to try that lol
WHAT
@Crash-lm4zb it's not as good of a backflip lol. I tried it out and you're better off side flipping
Also did you know if you jump hold down fludd trigger in the air and press jump you can shoot a giant burst of water that has big range and damage? Great for the manta ray and goop clean up shrines in Serena beach.
That one I knew. But I mostly use the spin jump tbh
Also I don't hear people talking about this as much but the Switch doesn't have those little grooves in the control sticks that let you know when you are pointing in one of the 8 Cardinal Directions so... Switch: D Tier Console for that
That was a similar issue with Mario 64 I think. Since many don't play it with the OG controller they missed out on it
I remember this being one of my favorite games (if not my favorite) when I was 5 years old before learning how to read. Despite all its flaws I thought it was a perfect game back then. It was interesting discovering the negative opinions people had for this game many years later. I still enjoy and respect SMS for what it is and can even beat it under 2 hours. I find hilarious when people dissect every single thing about this game and find myself thinking “You know what. This game kinda sucks actually.” 😂
One of my favorite past times is listening to people hate on games that I find flawless. I think I've listened to too many positive reviews so negative reviews started to feel fresh 😂
Regarding the blue coins, you technically don't even need to think about them, they'd only be worth nabbing in exchange for Shines if you needed a specific amount of Shines to enter Corona Mountain... which you don't, so they're kinda pointless anyways besides 100% completion. It's only an annoying experience if you want it to be, because otherwise, they're just unrefined and missed potential really.
That's fair, there's no gun to anyone's head saying they have to collect the blue coins. But I still think it's worth criticizing their poor implementation because the game was just begging to be fully completed by Mario 64 fans with that 120 shine target lol
@@NintenDeen oh yeah, absolutely. It's a choice, but when you choose to do it, it's pretty terribly implemented.
@@NintenDeen honestly, the weirdest thing about the whole game is needing to beat the Shadow Mario missions in every course, and no other requirements, to get to the end. It makes all secret and blue coin shines pretty much meaningless. Heck, it would make all shines but the Episode 7 ones pointless if it wasn't for the fact you need all 6 shines before it in each course to make it available, and that you need some shines to trigger the events that unlock the other courses. 30 to unlock the Pianta Village apparently, just checked! That's three full courses if you're very thorough early on, maybe four or five if you explore them just partially . You'll be needing 7 from each course anyways, not counting red coin challenges and the ones in Delfino Plaza, so you're pretty much golden there too. I guess that means 37 is the absolute minimum amount of shines you need?
But if shines being a requirement by amount is already a thing for most of the game, I'm not really sure why they decided to lock the final level behind a requirement by episode type. I mean, story wise, it makes sense, beat your doppelganger everywhere to make the last level available, and I respect the approach, it's just odd from a gameplay perspective really.
I think you actually have to beat episode 7 in every stage to access corona mountain. So at minimum it's 49 shine plus the first one in the airstrip. There are 1 or 2 glitches that will let you skip 2 or 3 shines I think (like going straight to episode 2 in Bianco Hills). But basically a minimum straightforward non game breaking target would be going through the 7 episodes of the 7 stages. Everything else is bonus content
@@NintenDeen oh yeah, forgot about the fact there's seven courses total (my mind was still on how many you need to unlock the Village), and the one you get from the Airstrip. So that's 50 then, right? From what I've seen, you probably never have to touch any of the secret missions or blue coins to get through the game, maybe not even any of the ones in Delfino Plaza - the ones that require the nozzles or Yoshi don't seem to be frequent enough that you won't have enough shines to keep going with just the stuff in the courses.
I don't think you can say you're giving the controls a fair shake if you're playing 3D All Stars. I've played Sunshine a ton and have never had problems with the controls for FLUDD, but having to use two different shoulder buttons just to use the basic nozzle was a deal breaker.
Mario Sunshine is a game that needs an analog trigger.
I love everything about Sunshine except actually playing it. Have had multiple times where I committed to learning the controls but it’s just tedious and unfun. It’s a shame because I really like the aesthetic they went here more than any other Mario platformer but it’s locked behind the worst one.
That's funny. So you like it conceptual but not in practice? I can appreciate that
Why’s there already a private video in the sunshine playlist
I upload my videos as I complete them and schedule the drops. Gives me a chance to watch them over and make sure everything looks right
This game could have used so much more polishing. Narrowing down ever single level comes down to 2 boss fights, one chase with bowser junior, 2 bonus stage shines. 30 blue coins, the equivalent of three shines, one additional secret shine. And then an additional 4 various shines that are the best parts in my opinion.
Mario is far too twitchy to control.
All valid criticisms. It really needed that extra year
Sunshine for me is my least favorite of the 3D Mario games, but the fact that I still consider it a good game is telling of the quality of the whole series.
Yeah I mentioned elsewhere that if this is our (Mario fans) "rushed and broken bad game" then dang are we spoiled lol
imo people are super weird about this game with the hate. they bring u the most random arguments that have never been made about any other game before or since.
the real issue is that people look at 64, then sunshine, then argue why sunshine is bad since it doesnt do things like 64.
That's actually almost exactly what the issue was lol. I remember early reviews used to highlight the secret challenge areas specifically as proof that the game would have been better without Fludd. Which imo is a terrible take, but then again I don't always think a game's enjoyment should be based on whether or not it controls like another game in the series. And I think I'm pretty consistent on that view based on my Sonic and Mega Man vids. My main issue with Fludd is how long it takes to get comfortable. But after I get comfortable I no longer have any real complaints with the movement.
Man... Mario Sunshine was the best, Mario Galaxy was the black sheep cuz there was no dive move. Every 3D Mario had a Dive move Cmon
Long jump is easier to pull off than a dive so I think it takes precedence for the fandom lol
The GameCube Luigi game sucks and the Mario game blows. Literally.
It's funny that Luigi's mansion is much more beloved than Sunshine, especially since it's Luigi's first real solo experience.
When I hear people talk about Gamecube games. It usually goes to Windwaker, Metroid Prime, Luigi's Mansion and Smash Bros Melee. Sunshine basically gets omitted and ignored.
Largely it's one of the many reasons the good ol Cube never reached the success of the older consoles. But that is part of why Nintendo went towards Gimmicks for their consoles and they Doubled Down 😉 on their next Handheld.
What version of Shine do you prefer? Original or 3D Allstars?
I wanted to make a sucks and blows joke in the video but I thought it'd be a bit much because I like both of the games lol. But I will agree, GameCube memories seem to be Smash first, WW second and probably a combination of all the remaining spinoff Mario titles third with DD leading the way.
Outside of that I'll hear memories of Sunshine, LM, Pikmin and SA2B and a bunch of other third party games
I want to love this game, but some of the required shine sprites are bullshit
Absolutely. I'm here to figure out if I think those bs shines ruin the game too much lol
Sunshine is the only 3D Mario I do not like. It's not an awful game, it's just not for me.
Fair enough! If you asked me prior to this series I'd consider it my least favorite 3D Mario. Not because I think it's bad, I still think all the 3D Marios are phenomenal. Just one of them has to be last place.
But now that I'm doing this critical run through of the franchise I'm not sure if my opinion will change or not. But I understand sunshine not being liked
Oh my god you perfectly encapsulated my thoughts on blue coins. If they were all in episode 8 they’d be great, the problem is there are some only available in certain episodes and you can’t track what ones you’ve found
Yeah, and I'd argue the collection is similar to odyssey in that you can't just roam around and collect as you find which is really fun imo. It's only when it gets to the tracking that I have an issue