As well there was the rules change for surge move units, only 1 unit can move per phase i think. Which hurts world eaters and the tyrranids endless swarm and other units
I really hate when a model over performs in a certain detachment, but its fine in all the others yet they get penalized because of 1 detachment...10 Praetorians dropping from 240 points to 200 is really nice and the Triarch Stalker dropping tp 115 makes me want to take 2 with Heat Rays with its dual profile Melta(4) and its 2D6 Flamer with Scout 8" and removing cover from any unit it hit. The Obeisance Phalanx now grants +1 to Wound to Nobles (Epic Heroes that are clearly at leasat equal to an Overlord or higher) , Triarch, and Lychguard vs its Worthy Foe target. Oddly TSK had his keywords changed, but the CCB doesn't even have the Noble keyword, but he's still needed in The Obeisance Phalanx so he can use his Rez Orb on Praetorians since they can't take an Overlord. Can't wait to build 10 Praetorians with Rods which will do great in Awakened if you give them +1 to hit and they will do well with the Assault Stratagem. Blows my mind that Annihilation Legion saw no changes and that GW hasn't restricted the amount of C'Tan that can be taken in a list.
The annoying thing with Drukhari is that the faction has such a small playerbase that our winrate is being completely skewed up by a single player : Skaredcast who is one of the best 40k players in the entire world seriously, the dude wins tournaments 5-0 with his fluff armies (all wyches, all coven, etc...) Just for fun. When he doesn't play for a bit the winrate crumbles down to normal levels so it's kinda annoying to be getting the nerf bat because of one player.
@redrumssam5888 you didn't read clearly. Drukhari has some exceptional players that help that win rate massively. 2 weeks ago they all coincidentally didn't compete and the win rate drop by nearly 10% Using your logic orks came second at the London gt so they must also be broken and didn't need buffs no?
To be fair, as a non-competitive CSM player, I really enjoy the buffs to Vashtorr, Disco-Lord and other units. And i like how they handle units by adressing problematic sizes and not just nerfing the whole unit (only 5 Warp Talons getting a 10 point reducting, 10 Talons paying still the same).
How the hell did they manage to Q&A that Hellblasters can only shoot on death when its to an attack when theres a designers note *specifically calling out* that they can do it on hazardous fails?
I feel this needs to be talked about more. It's a serious head-scratcher how that one got through, if they don't want them working that way they really need to get rid of the note.
Those poor Desolators, catching strays while sitting on the bench. Their mommas are going to have to tie a steak to their neck to get the dog to play with them.
I still use them, and my list went down close to 100 points, so now I see their spot on my army with these discounts, or you can get them out and add more horde style....
I remembered the one tournament game where the Ork player won turn 1, that nuked flyers and the orks at the same time. It was pretty hilarious actually since the changes came almost immediately after.
GW "Stop taking the same characters" BT player "I only have 3 really so what else am I suppose to do?" GW "well since you keep taking them they must be good so we are gonna increase their points again. Also stop taking your best units" BT "What? Literally everyone takes their best units. Our win rate isn't even that high right now and we only have 2 unique viable units" GW "Sure but your above 40% and for a marine faction that is to high"
Buddy as a World Eaters player I’m with you. They keep increasing the cost of the master of executions when he’s the only character on foot outside of Kharn. H went from 80 pts at the beginning of the edition to 110 now. It’s incredibly frustrating.
I feel exactly the same. BT is the army where I have the most points at the moment and we just get nerfed every, single point update. It is not even funny anymore.
9th edition was a complete mess, and now 10th is also a complete mess. This company never learns anything. Baffled why the community doesn't just walk away from the official 40k rules altogether and just make their own community edition of the game that is balanced at this point.
@@cinifiend i legit have no idea what you are smoking, but 9th and 8th was unfathomably unbalanced and unclear during most of their run. Compared to that, 10th is extremely balanced (if you ignore the launch fkups)
Me seen making scythes out of toothpicks and plasticard because I've got 20 blightlord terminators and zero deathshroud because back in 8th edition when I bought/played them, everyone pushed to buy blightlords and avoid deathshroud like the plague :')
I feel like space marines need to do something similar to imperial agents did where divergent chapters and the main space marine codex chapters have different point sets to allow for unique balancing. Like nerfing things that were only uniquely good in BT or BA for the entirety of space marines kinda kills off some chances to make more fun lists for non divergent chapters
They should restrict chapter specific units to that chapter's detachments. That let's you balance the points appropriately, as you don't have to worry about unintended rules interactions so much.
@@Square_Planar Or just limit the Divergent Chapters to only being able to take the basic Gladius detachment from the basic codex... Better yet, feth this detachment BS and bring back subfaction rules like we had in 8th & 9th
Grey Knights player here, I feel like GW doesn't get that the reason we bring so many Dreadknights is because they're basically our only viable answer against high Toughness units. The only other options we have our Mortal Wound spam from our librarians and the occasional Lascannons from vehicles which don't synergize with our army.
I agree, it’s our only reliable unit that can actually fight against tough enemies. If they gave us our hammers back, it’ll more likely reduce how many dread knights we’ll take.
Imagine if Psyker were still a thing and we had a power that allowed high damage during a phase specifically designed for that unique aspect of the game?
Basically every army that is not on the top spots is suffering from this. We spam our most efficient unit becuase the rest are just plain bad, in comes the nerf bat. And then they reduce the points a little on units where the cost is not the entire problem, but the rules or stats or lack of a specific use.
Yep and instead of buffing the terminators or any of these units in any meaningful way they take the easy way out that is the quickest and cheapest method of "uhh lower the points?" This company is a joke.
Space Marines really needs to start having chapter specific points costs for the general units. Make it easier to balance overall and would stop one chapter causing a price hike for everybody.
It is pretty dumb that the divergent Chapters can do all the things Codex Space Marines can do, plus all of their own stuff; it gives you very little reason not to run one of the divergent Chapters. They should be at least limited to the Detachments in their own Codices, and possibly unit restrictions as well.
Space wolves have unit restrictions, GW just doesn't care enough to keep the list up to date (having skyclaws should 100% lock out jump pack inters). They laid the groundwork and then just ignore it for years at a time. They also constantly forget to update the other half of the list. Long Fangs are Devastators with a slightly different ability, and they just now lost the 30pt tax for the exact same stats. Which is all the say I 100% agree with you, just that even when GW does it they mess it up.
Can't understand why GW can't see that their weird compulsion to make all the divergent chapters use the same data sheets makes balancing them and the vanilla chapters impossible. Separate the lists and you can balance them properly. It doesn't matter if intercessors cost different amounts in different armies if they do different things!
God forbid we're allowed to play anything other than Angron & 8bound spam... We can't have actual choice in the game, the mouth breathing "Tournament" try-hards would no longer be able to predict the only playable lists... >.>
@@drunkenastarte5243 Balancing the game around nothing but the tournament players is so wild to me. Literally one guy plays one list at a few tournaments and GW goes, "But the win rate" and nerfs the entire faction.
@@drunkenastarte5243 I love Eightbound as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want my entire army to consist of them. The whole identity of WE is Khorne Berzerkers, why are they so underwhelming lol
As a thousand Sons player I honestly think we got one of the better indexes; we have a very good army rule, and the cabal system faithfully retains what was once the psychic phase. Magnus rocks, most of our units are at the very least viable, if not downright good, and all of our stratagems synergize very well with the army. It all feels very complete, and not to mention fits very well thematically As such, thousand sons are still winning tournaments, rocking locals, and in my opinion are very fun to play, even with an index that is over a year old now. Even with these point nerfs I believe we will be ok somewhat But I pray on my knees nightly that we get our codex dead last this edition, no matter what is in store for us it will certainly not be as complete or enjoyable as it is right now.
bro is smoking STRAIGHT METH, if he thinks this, all the units that got nerfed were the ONLY units in Ksons that were good, everything else was actually very bad, Scarab occult are garbage, wildly over costed for what little they do, vehicles acrossed the board can't even interact with our factions base rules, Magnus is incredibly mediocre in fighting and shooting, its the reason why every army includes him and then has him hide in the very back board to sit and be nothing more than a home field objective holder and ritual point battery, Thousand sons were winning tournaments because of the uniquely A symetrical way people build and PLAY army lists in a tournament, but in casual games I wanna say thousand sons were more bottom middle, their over reliance on Doombolt to do the heavy lifting for their army's killing and temporal surge for their armies movement is a MASSIVE crutch that they lean way too much on due to their overall over costed and really mediocre stats and base rules.
the 40k team needs to take a note from the AoS team for update formatting. it is so much harder to tell what changed, and by how much, in the 40k update documents than the new AoS documents, where updates and points changes are clearly marked, all in a single document, and the amount of those changes are also noted.
So glad drukhari got absolutely nuked when it's one of the hardest armies to pilot effective and it's win rate is proped up by 2 or 3 exceptional players. Honestly not even sure what army to play now between my orks, drukhari and deathguard.
My Salamanders are already doing pretty badly among my hobby group, I still have fun using them but they got even more expensive now... I don't own any of the stuff that got buffed except for one terminator squad, my group is very casual but we do tend to stick to the newest rules and missions. I've been playing since 8th edition and more often than not it feels like tournament lists have often negatively impacted a lot of the games changes for my casual group of kitchen table buddies. There were definetly times armies needed to be nerfed, when we noticed, even in casual games, that certain things were way too strong, but most of the time it just throws a nuke into your fun lists. Won't break my army, a small adjustment and I'm good to go. But my reaction was kind of an "Aww man, why...?"
@@RickCorvus Kind of a tough ask when you've finally painted all your little plastic guys the way you want with the little flames on them and stuff, but yeah, I'll probably at least be asking the guys to bring some of their weaker factions or more outlandish lists.
@@Dissension77 or you could just don't use the new points? If you and your friends just play on the kitchen table No need to use point updates you guys don't like
@@RickCorvus fair point, but the apps we use for list building kind of automatically update them, of course, and we do kind of feel obligated to play the most recent rules and missions. It's not like the list was hit too hard, a minor adjustment will do, it just doesn't feel that great when you have to downsize a list that's already not that great right now. I do still love my little green guys.
I'm a Salamanders fan as well, and I prefer somewhat fluffy lists rather than pure competitive optimization. I'm probably going to keep using Eradicators, regardless of the points just because I feel like they fit well. It does suck to see them go up, but I can understand why they got hit. Their basic datasheet was among the best anti-tank across the board, no matter what chapter/detachment you were playing. They didn't touch the points on Aggressors or Infernus squads, which is good since they didn't get nerfed, but Flamestorm Aggressors could probably have used a little help and didn't get it. Since they share a sheet with Boltstorm Aggressors though, I can kind of understand why the whole unit didn't get buffed. The Terminator buffs are nice, but I tend to play more of a Primaris force rather than 1st company so i don't really have any of those either. Honestly, the biggest frustration for me was the mass squatting of units at the beginning of 10th. Before that my Salamanders used to be centered around some ancient dreadnoughts: Bray'arth Ashmantle, a Contemptor Dread with the forge world Salamanders body, and a primaris techmarine were my core. I also had one of the forge world dreadnought drop pods for Mr. Ashmantle to ride to battle in. Of those units, only the techmarine didn't get sent to Legends. So, the core of my force was gutted and now my army is kind of a pile of heavy infantry at the moment. I'm working on building up some of the new Primaris dreadnoughts to get some of the old feel back, but my motivation isn't super-strong right now.
That is weird... meanwhile the Wraithseer's "D-cannon" which costs more than a bright lance is still identical to a single wraithguard's gun but with 6 inches extra range, when it used to be an actual D-cannon...
@@axel9937 i know right? This trend is upsetting across many of the factions where they nerf the strongest things to encourage diversity but leave the most unused models unchanged or give them a measely 5 point drop or something.
God forbid the Marines have something to counter the tank meta that is RULING this edition with no mercy. Theres no reason to not take Eradicators, and GW just went "nah, you dont get that option"
theres plenty of reasons not to take eradicators. theyre miserably slow for one. and D3 meta weapons kill them pretty easily. and marines can spam vehicles too (and do!).
Oh goodie, Plagueburst Crawlers are still 10 points more expensive than wardog brigands and have about half the damage output and speed. Why are we still paying for indirect fire shenanigans we no longer have?
Welp, SM got points cuts for bad meme units nobody uses and points raises for what's actually good, as per usual. God forbid a 40% win rate faction be allowed good things, huh?
Isn't this the whole premise of points changes? If points are lowered, the unit is bad and they want you to use it more. If points are raised, they want you to use it less, and, when you do, the unit should be worth a higher percentage of your 2k. This is intentional.
For the custodes, the Telemon got a new rule for his fists: Devoted to Destruction: If this model is equipped with 2 Telemon caestus weapons in addition to its armoured feet weapon, add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of those Telemon caestus weapons.
WTF Evil Elves? We don't get a choice, we have to take an Archon and Incubi, they are compulsory in the faction. Some factions get niche changes, Drukhari get nerfs to required units?
the fact desolation squad is still 200pts is wild as well. I swear like 70% of the space marine section in all my LGS are just desolation kits that have been there since their release.
Ugly kit and terrible overpriced rules is an easy way to not get bought. My local Warhammer store is pretty much just combat patrols and unsold aircraft
Indirect fire is a mess with them now, take the Sgt's Vengor launcher for example ,hits on 2+ but 3+ with the indirect penalty but the indirect fire key says hits of 1-3 always fail so your actually having to hit on 4s instead so just getting double fucked imo.
I have been wondering why the two caestus thing hasn't been acknowledged all edition. I now wonder why they did +2 attacks rather than twin linked, but I'm not going to complain (aside from not having better melee than other dreads by default).
It should cost 1000. Braindead necron gamers just take 4 big guys and have fun while factions without high Damage units play cap points and just roll saves
As a TSons player, this hurts. I get that we had a good win percentage, but this isn't going to change army building at all, because it's a nerf to literally all of our viable options, minus Helbrutes. It just means we get to take less stuff.
Surely that is exactly the point for your faction? You have the highest win rate in the game, I would imagine the exact intention is to tone your army down a bit.
@@samhunter1205 Our win rate was 56%. That's only 3% higher than the Space Wolves, who got 3 targeted nerfs and 4 buffs. Plus it's not really about the win rate. We have the smallest unique range in the entire game. I could understand giving Magnus a points bump, if it came along with making some other choices a bit more viable, but nerfing all of our actually unique stuff - and, notably, everything that actually generates Cabal Points (except for the Terminator Sorcerer for some reason) - just feels punitive.
@@peterlepper5199I am convinced the only reason the termie sorcerer is ignored is because it’s a kitbash, and you hit the nail on the head, we aren’t mad we got nerfed, we are sad cause the nerfs don’t actually open up any meaningful decision points in future list building, to your point it’s not that the best builds will just have to deal with having less stuff, it’s that any list just has to deal with having less stuff cause we have no lateral replacements for our tiny range
41:02 Let's be perfectly clear, much like Admech I think TONS of people WANT to play GSC, they have a fun aesthetic, pretty good lore and engaging mechanics on the tabletop. They're SO EXPENSIVE! Even by GW's ridiculous price standards you need tons of them and tons of character models which means paying the 5X$ character levy probably over a dozen times. A 2000pt army is going to cost more than building yourself a new pc no question and It's really hard to justify that expenditure even with sufficient disposable income which not many of us are packing at the moment.
With the way the detachments work, hyper emphasizing a subset of units, you kinda need multiple 2000 point armies as well. Loads of Acolytes and Metamorphs for Xenocreed, loads of Aberrants and Purestrain for Broodsurge etc. The detachments don't feel like different ways to play the same units, they feel more like mini armies of different units. I've no idea how points are supposed to be balanced in that model, either. How do you avoid a unit either being undercosted when used in the matching detachment or overcosted in an "off" detachment use?
Yes they're crazy expensive, but you can trim about a quarter of the cost by kitbashing characters. Trucks come with extra bodies and you have lots of leftover bits from acolyte/neophyte sprues
In case there was any doubt from anywhere in the world that GW does not play its own game, 1.13 has officially removed it. The previous data slate devastated Ironstorm and crippled Firestorm, now I guess they've decided that Gladius should be wrecked to make sure marines drop even further. +15 points to the Apothecary Biologis, another points increase for Fire Discipline, Aggressors, already grossly over costed, were not touched and Eradicators going up. I guess they really don't like the gravis combo keeping Gladius relevant. Does GW really think that minor points drops on mediocre to bad units and crippling increases to our best units is going to take us out of the low 40% bracket? And if ALL this still doesn't convince you that GW is utterly out of touch, Deathshroud terminators were lowered AGAIN. AGAIN!!! 33.33 ppm for one of the strongest units in 40k. I haven't had time to go over the rest, but as a SM and DG player, this is the single most tone-deaf update I've seen in my life.
@@JimH. Dude they want you to buy some different units. Everyone has aggressors, inceptors, jump pack intercessors. Now they want you to buy some land speeders. That's all this is. Why do you think many of the units coming out in the combat patrol magazine went down in points?
Gw: buy space marines Humam: why? Gw: super soldier badasses that are walking tanks in armour! Human: oh wow, in your game they must win everything! Gw: noooooooooo...dont be silly we hate them but can't admit it because thats our money maker"
Blows my mind that they're releasing a Penitent Host Christmas box and didn't think, 'hey maybe we should make Penitent Host viable right before we release this?'
My 1k sororitas list had already lost 200 points going into the codex, and now I've lost another 50. Dropping a castigator is my only option, and cutting one basically.means my list is unplayable against half of the local meta since my army needed it to pressure monster and parking lot lists. GW didn't even fix the points cost of sacresancts, which have been nigh unplayable the entire edition. I'm so mad.
As another World eaters player i am a bit indifferent about these changes, sure Angron went up, but what do you expect of a monster like that that can revive. The Daemon prince with wings point drop is a nice consolation for me since he was 1 of my go too characters anyways. The other point changes feel a bit unnecessary but i can live with em.
World Eaters just need more than 4-5 functional datasheets! Take anything beyond Angry Ron + 8bound spam and the entire faction is basically unplayable
May be a niche crowd. BUT Grey Knights in terms of Boarding Actions got a huge buff. Before the points kinda awkwardly gave us access to maybe one squad of Purifiers and one squad of Paladins with a character, and an awkward 60 or so points with nothing to field. Now with 10 points reduced you can field a second character out of the smaller ones. I'm kinda feeling 1x Grand Master 1x Chaplain 1x5 Strike 1x5 Terminators For a total of 495 points or 500 if you swap the Chaplain for a Brotherhood Champion.
At this point I'm comvinced that someone on the balance team has a personal vendetta against World Eaters, since they keep getting nerfed despite being in line or even underperforming. And they're at 49% not 51%. The points nerfs dont seem as bad until you realize that it kills most lists and makes filling huge points gaps impossible due to the small number of viable units. They also may have nerfed Blood Surge on Berzerkers to once per phase depending on how TOs rule on the new "surge" rules. If thats the case, theyre a dead unit because the threat of them getting to you from shooting them disappears entirely.
Is it because everyone buys 3 of a strong unit and barely buys anything else? Or that they want to bring back a unit that hasn't been played for months to years? Or that the strong units are played on tournament top tables and weaker units aren't, so Gw tries to internal balance? Of course money is a factor but it is far more complicated
@@Hans_Unique_Handle as if vanguard vets needed nerfing, it's a feels bad move because people were running sang guard as vanvets to match the loadout and squad size of their existing models
@@bojoggs-ik8tq Let's be honest, at 40% WR *nothing* needed nerfing. I suspect Vanguard Vets are getting phased out, though. Their setup is an afterthought in the Codex and they directly compete with Bladeguard and Jump Intercessors. Whether we get Bladeguard with Jump Packs is anyone's guess. Although I feel it would be kinda off with their aesthetic.
@@bojoggs-ik8tq Yeah the Firstborne Dread feels like it's borderline legends as is. In a weird way seeing what units are constantly neglected (not even receiving nerfs) gives a pretty good idea of what's getting the axe in 11th. If you like the Ven Dread, better get it now.
Bullgyrns deserve to be punished for their sins. Guard really needs about a dozen other buffs but we didn’t see them because 18 Bullgyrn was the meta. Tank Commanders getting Squadron will have to do I guess
We really need an answer for our artillery. Its a big part of the faction and they are all mostly useless now as indirect fire has been nerfed into the ground. Guard keeps winning with other gimmicks like tank spam, Bullgryn spam, and more. I'm glad the faction can maintain such decent win rates, but there are so many units that are shelved because of blanket rule changes like the indirect fire one.
1. Continually reduce the points cost of most units every couple of months 2. Reduce the minimum requirement for a game with the official rules to 1000 points 3. Make the standard points amount for a game 2000 points (remember when it was 1500?) 4. And, of course, keep up the regular price increases 6. Now, even adjusted for inflation, the cost of playing is pretty much double of what it used to be. 7. Profit. And most people miss it too . . .
Funny enough: someone actually calculated the price increase and it was just keeping up with inflation. Just an FYI. But this is a complicated matter, as your current living place does highly influence prices. Some got hit a lot harder than others All other points I do agree to a certain extent.
@InquisitorPinky in the US I'm paying a 45% premium and we still get price increases almost every year. That shit ain't keeping up with inflation and as someone who has worked in international shipping, it doesn't cost that much either. GW are the definition of greedy.
@@anthonyroberts3610 as I said, some regions get hit a lot harder. For me in Europe it is just the inflation increase. So from my perspective GW isn’t just greedy ;)
I'm currently painting my first ever 1000 points army. It's an ork army with 2 kill rigs. These buffs are massive, but also means, I might need to purchase more models lol, as I now have 50 more points to work with..
wish that Vashtorr and the Lord Discordant could benefit from the Vashtorr themed Detachment. Lord Discordant just don't fit in anywhere, and his ranged should have the pistol keyword as a 3" range is basically in melee.
At 45:06 it is mentioned that the Obeisance Phalanx keyword change, going from Overlord to Noble, will be helpful for things such as the Royal Warden. This is incorrect, as the Royal Warden does not have the Noble keyword. The only thing this change does is allow Imotekh the Stormlord and Trazyn the Infinite to benefit from the rule and by extension any units led by them.
Hey, Imotekh is actually really big, the OP strats are pretty good and letting him buff up an immortals squad instead of needing an overlord is actually really good synergy now. And I guess Trazyn can stand in for an overlord if you’re over 10 points if you REALLY need noble on the immortals. Overall OP stocks are climbing right now, might even make it better than Awakened Dynasty now
@Prometheus_UwU Oh, yeah I'm definitely happy about OP getting some buffs. It's my preferred thematic detachment, so I'm giddy to try out a game with it
Szarekh does not have the "noble" keyword either sadly. While it's not a perfect implementation, it does give Obeisance Phalanx some much needed flexibility by helping Warriors & Immortals punch a bit higher without needing an Overlord along with the loooong overdue points buff to Praetorians and Stalkers.
GIVE ME BACK GRANULAR POINTS, GW, YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKS!!! I literally JUST finished assembling and priming my 1k, fluff-based Space Marine list (995pts) and now the ONLY option I have is to drop the enhancement off my captain and slap a crappier, cheaper one in. Because Jump Intercessors pumped it to 1005, and so illegal. I can't drop an add-on off a vehicle, I can't drop a single model from a squad, I can't change a weapon upgrade. The 'Simple' points system is stupid, frustrating dogshit. Granular points worked FINE for 9 god damned editions, and I'm continuosly hacked off by how bad the set points costs are for 40k. Easy to balance? Stupid to balance, more bloody like.
Best solution I have found: stop playing GW rules. Power level in place of points was one of the tipping points that pushed me to explore other systems, and eventually write my own.
A rules adjustment ideally. I love those fat little bois, but every time I look at them, I can't help but wonder why I'm running five termies who are mediocre at 2 things when I could be running more Deathshrouds, who are REALLY good at one thing and are much better uses of the rest of DG's terminator leaders.
Deathguard just need a full on re-write... For the faction who's identity is mean to be "super tough, grinding infantry advance", they're insanely squiahsy. So sick of being forced to always hide my stinky boyz in Rhinos. Not to mention Blightlords are hilarious awful.
Oh cool Vanguard Veterans got nerfed because yeah soo many were using them. Also that Death Company cost of 130 makes me physically sick if that actually is the cost they're going with because apparently the Codex 115/230 was already upsetting me. At least the DC Dreadnought is significantly less stupid costed.
Vanguard vets were so terrible that I wasn't even going to bother. Last night I drummed up a list with them to at least give them a shot, and now because of the new update the roster is over. Forget it.
I expected nothing, I knew this was going to be a small update with no big changes that could actually fix the codex/divergent marine divide, and yet I'm still disappointed. What the genuine fuck is the point of playing codex marines anymore when all GW does is nerf them for the sins of the divergent chapters. I know exactly how they could fix this problem, and I have no faith that they will do anything actually helpful. At this point my space marine army is going to sit on the shelf until 11th edition.
As a salamanders player I am also in agony. Praying this is all in the name of internal balance of marines while they fix us with a fat patch in a couple months
@timostegemann9738 a good list and a fun, flavourful list are very different things, I'll be happy when my lists can be both at the same time but rn it's good OR flavourful
Space wolves topped the meta for like 4 months, 10 point increase on 2 units. Sisters dominate for about 2-3, and they give us like 200 points nerf across the board. Nothing proper went down in points either, sacresants are still massively overcosted
@@jacket2848 Repentia are by far the biggest offender in the over-costed category. Eviscerators are only arguably slightly better than halberds but while both have T3, Repentia back that up with a 6+ invul and a 5+ FNP. At least Sacresants have 3+ armor and a 4+ invul plus the ability to get -1 to opponent's rolls to wound them (behaves like T4 but better because it caps wound rolls at 3+ if the enemy doesn't have +1 somewhere), Repentia struggle to get a character at all, not even priests. To top it all off Sacresants cost 15 pts/model, Repentia cost 18 pts/model...WHY? When looking at the pre-codex and post-codex values I look at the buffs and say "would I have paid the points cost to take this as an upgrade were it optional?" Repentia at +7 pts/model for sustained hits 1 and re-rolls to hit and wound all the time (assuming the Repentia superior is alive) instead of only on the charge? Nope, +1 or +2 pts/model maybe is fine, +7 is not close. Sacresants got an additional attack on their melee as well as other rules like lethal hits or sustained hits 1, was it worth 2pts/model for those upgrades? Maybe, problem was Sacresants weren't really worth 13 pts each as a base cost. Zephrim are also pretty bad, losing +1S on the charge in exchange for lethal hits or sustained hits (or both for a miracle die) and went from 12pts/model to 18pts/model, now down to 17pts/model. Since the most common enemy is marines, or generally a T4 enemy, the option I would choose on the charge is +1S, except, oh wait...that's not an option any more, so I guess now I go lethal hits against T4 or greater and sustained against T3 or less. Other things worth mentioning is why are Paragons and penitent walkers basically the same cost? Penitent walkers have two heavy bolters AT BEST, compared with a multi-melta and a grenade launcher. The paragons are T7 which is a big break point because it means S12 needs a 3+ to wound instead of a 2+. Not to mention penitents have a 4+, 6++, 5+++ compared to 2+, 4++ plus with bonuses to hit and wound the paragons are much more reliable and stronger AND can be joined by Vahl to really boost them up. Yet three paragons = 220, three mortifiers = 210, three penitent engines = 225. I would love to play the penitent list from time to time but I really can't in the state its units are in. The internal balance of the list was much better pre-codex than it is now. Arco-Flagellants are still pretty great though, not as great as when they had twin-linked, but still solid.
@@WoWisdeadtome I hear you on the Repentia. For sheer fun and curiosity purposes, I was recently hoping to test out a Penitent Host list that uses the Triumph to help slingshot units into combat. Guess it's back to the drawing board for me.
Hey Auspex. One other thing for Custodes. GW updated some of the Imperial Armour datasheets. The Telemon gained a new ability buffing it if it takes two caestus. Not sure if there are any other changes, it's hard to tell. But they did update those to some degree
I've seen an update for Ork that is not shown, maybe it is older than i thought : Gretchin CP generation now trigger in movement phase, which mean you get it on first turn even if you're first player. Not a crazy thing but still nice.
As an Orks player, i am pleased with our point cuts. I hope they revisit the Deffdread again this year, i want to use it but Killa Kans still edge them out of my lists.
One small note that was missed. The custodes Telemon heavy dreadnought now has a reason to take two fists. Previously the only benefit was getting an extra wrist mounted plasma flamer (d3 shots 7/2/1) but now the telemon gets an extra 2 attacks as well, bringing it up to A7 WS2+ 12/2/3
The Apothecary nerf is 100000000000% a salty GW employee that lost to the combo once. That is, if anyone over there actually plays or cares about the game
I wonder if Sororitas are really going to change much. With only Battle Sisters going down, Seraphim going up, and Penitent units still looking pretty overcosted, it seems to me it will still be Bringer of Flame spam. Some Dominions might switch to Battle Sisters, maybe Morven Vahl gets dropped to pay for points increases. Now T5 W2 Chaos Havocs with Lascannons cost the same as T3 W1 Retributors with 18" Multimeltas, that's just great. Seems like a real missed opportunity to drop the cost of Penitent units in time for the Christmas box full of such units, along with the Combat Patrol with Arco Flagellants. Surprised to finally see Aeldari go through a balance pass with only green. Doesn't seem like much will change though, except more Fire Dragons in Falcons. And I know it's too soon to expect changes for Imperial Agents but it's still disappointing they get nothing but an increase to Subductors for allies, and finally fixing the nesting Rhinos.
Bringers of Flame lets you kill things more reliably; or rather, it lets you excel in a role that you're being forced into anyway. It's simply the best option, because without it you're basically playing Space Marines but with less range and worse toughness and leadership. Most notably, it lets you hurt vehicles with meltas, which are your only option short of Exorcists or Castigators - Castigators are now only ten points less than a Leman Russ which has better save, toughness, wounds, and weapon options, and Exorcists cost 15 points MORE than the objectively superior Manticore. The only weapons Sisters have above S10 require you to get Paragon Warsuits into melee. In a world where you can face Knights lists where even the weakest unit in their army is T10, Meltas need all the help they can get. Things are going to stay this way until we return to the old status quo of 'Lascannons have long range, so don't hit as hard as Melta weapons' which is the obvious objective way to do things.
GW really don't seem to understand Retributors in the slightest. Comparing them to any other army's equivalent unit shows they're hilariously over-costed.
Triumph went up 60 points. That's absolutely massive. Most lists have gone up like 200 points, that's dropping two units. Morvenn can't be dropped really, she's the single thing in the army which can tank something
Yeah, I've spoken about this elsewhere, too. Why do Paragons cost roughly the same as the penitent walkers? 3 Paragons = 220, 3 Mortifiers = 210, 3 Penitent Engines = 225. Ranged weapons: Paragons: Multi-melta and grenade launcher (also bolt pistol) Mortifiers: Two Heavy Bolters Penitent Engines: Two Flamers (with assault, combines well with its special rule) Melee: Paragons: Choice of anti-infantry War Blade: A4, WS 3+, S8, AP -2, D2, or anti-vehicle Mace: A3, WS 3+, S12, AP -1, D3 Mortifiers/Penitent Engines: Anti-Infantry Penitent Flail: A8, WS 3+ (4+ on engines), S5, AP -1, D1 [sustained hits 1] or Anti-Tank Buzz Blades: A4, WS 3+ (4+ on engines), S10, AP -3, D2. Either weapon has the option to be twin-linked if the other is not taken. Defensive: stats not mentioned are equal Paragons: T7, 4W, 2+ armor, 4+ invul Mortifiers/Penitent Engines: T6, 5W, 4+ armor (3+ on one Mortifier per unit at the cost of movement), 6+ invul, 5+ FNP Special Rules: Paragons: Against monsters and vehicles +1 to hit and wound. (Conditional, but very powerful when applicable) Mortifier: If killed in combat, can still fight on 2+ (Will often be irrelevant, only slightly useful when it does work and requires losing the unit) Penitent Engine: Advance and charge. (Good) So paragons have the best ranged weapons, their anti-infantry melee is the best particularly in the most common case (space marine or rough equivalent enemy), their anti-tank option is highest S but lacks AP (Penitent walkers are probably better at meleeing down vehicles assuming they twin-link the buzz blades, but any counter attack from vehicle tracks is much more threatening to them). Penitent Engines have the most universally useful special rule but Paragons have the strongest one if it is applicable. T7 makes S12 wound on 3+, big T hurdle that only the Paragons clear and Paragons can be joined by Vahl to make them REALLY shine. Basically there is no world in which Paragons should be 220 where three Mortifiers should not be 180 and three Penitent Engines 195. I won't go as in depth with Repentia, but good god, 18 pts/model for a unit with T3, 6+ invul and 5+ FNP. Their weapons are only slightly better than Sacresant Halberds and Sacresants are virtual fortresses of indestructibility by comparison, especially if joined by a character that the Repentia can't even have without an enhancement available to only a single detachment and even then only one unit can have one. I'm not saying a Palatine should be able to naturally join this unit, I'm saying a priest (and only a priest) should. (If it were up to me this enhancement would cost 5pts but would cause the Palatine/Canoness to have a 7+ Sv, have their weargear options replaced with a Penitent Eviscerator (A4, WS 2+, S6, AP -2, D2 [sustained hits 1]) invul reduced from 4+ to 6+ and gain a 5+ FNP, gain the penitent keyword, be allowed to join a Repentia squad and this model can not be the army warlord). So how Sacresants ended up at 15 pts/model I have no clue even though both are overcosted. Remember that pre-codex Repentia were 11 pts/model and all they really got in the codex was sustained hits 1 for +7 points each. I would love to play a Penitent Host, but arco-flagellants can't carry the whole list by themselves (especially as they were ALSO nerfed in the codex release losing twin-linked and having their 4+ FNP reduced to 5+).
For CSM an interesting change is Page 111 - Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, Keywords section Add ‘Chaos Lord’. So Bastion Plate is now legit, am i right?
The Wraithknight points drop means it can be put into Strategic Reserves again. Overall I'd say that the Aeldari changes since the edition launch are a good example of measured changes to a faction and not desperate overreach such as Mega Nobz and, sadly, Desolation Squads (which are still, for some reason, 40 points per model after having all their rules nerfed into the ground).
Nerfing points, Rules and Strategems at the same time to affect a single unit in multiple ways is not a measured response, and that has happened multiple times to the Aeldari (eg Wraithknight, Wraithguard, Yncarne, Nightspinner). A measured response is doing only one of these at a time and observing the effect before making further changes.
James Workshop: These models are not selling and are gathering dust, give them precision, and a 15 point drop. We sold them all boss: Okay, now put them in Legends.
There's a Nerf you missed that is pretty significant to Hellblasters, they now only shoot on death if they died as a result of an attack, so hazerdous rolls no longer trigger another volley.
@@WontonDestruction >Designer’s Note: This ability is triggered even when a model in this unit is destroyed as the result offailing a Hazardous test, meaning such a model may be able to shoot twice in the same phase. Right there in black and white in the codex. Anyone arguing against this is just being an obtuse asshole- the unit is directly killed by an attack, even if it's your attack. The intent of the FAQ is to stop dickheads from trying to shoot if they get killed by being out of coherency, reserves crap etc
I dont understand the nerf to apothecary. Just because something is played doesnt mean its OP. Its just a solid unit. i feel like the nerfs ouweight the buffs. The Gulliman buff will be interesting tho
@@SteveB182 its honestly just lazy. Feels like they don't play the game. They just see what people are playing to win and arbitrarily move the goal posts
Biologus change is a little frustrating - vanguard spearhead got a lot of direct nerfs, and now it keeps suffering from the sins of other lists as well
Not sure I can justify Black Knights, Ravenwing Command Squads or DarkShroud/Land Speeder Vengeance since they are first born units which means there is a good chance they are going to legends next year. The Stormspeeder points drop is great for Ravenwing, but I still think they should have received a 5++ like all the other Ravenwing units.
I bought a Ravenwing command squad just because they're the nicest biker unit GW have ever made. Hopefully we finally get more Outrider units / options but I'm not holding my breath
Necrons: No nerfs to C'tan or Hypercrypt No buffs to warriors/immortals Obeisance Phalanx and Annihilation legion still awful Heavy destroyers got nerfed because they did too well in Hypercrypt (similar to how Canoptek Court got the doomstalker nerfed, which is now completely outdone by the doomsday ark) At least we got cheaper praetorians
Lmao one of the most insane comparisons possible. With las / missile.. the Ballistus has literally DOUBLE the shooting, 4 more wounds, faster, tougher, more OC.. Box dreads should genuinely be under 100 points.
I was so excited to see the buffs until I saw the nerf to Fire Discipline and the Biologys. They really want to kill that combo, don't they? Jump Intercessors going up isn't a shock, but still sad. But as many nerfs as buffs to a 40% WR army. Is that really necessary? Honestly, CSM is a better army and seemed to get better overall buffs than we did. Again. lol
CORRECTIONS:
- Monolith also went up 25pts to 400pts, again not so great for Hypercrypt there along with the Vault increase...
Wish warriors would get some love. Also think their index detachment might get more love now.
As well there was the rules change for surge move units, only 1 unit can move per phase i think. Which hurts world eaters and the tyrranids endless swarm and other units
I really hate when a model over performs in a certain detachment, but its fine in all the others yet they get penalized because of 1 detachment...10 Praetorians dropping from 240 points to 200 is really nice and the Triarch Stalker dropping tp 115 makes me want to take 2 with Heat Rays with its dual profile Melta(4) and its 2D6 Flamer with Scout 8" and removing cover from any unit it hit.
The Obeisance Phalanx now grants +1 to Wound to Nobles (Epic Heroes that are clearly at leasat equal to an Overlord or higher) , Triarch, and Lychguard vs its Worthy Foe target. Oddly TSK had his keywords changed, but the CCB doesn't even have the Noble keyword, but he's still needed in The Obeisance Phalanx so he can use his Rez Orb on Praetorians since they can't take an Overlord.
Can't wait to build 10 Praetorians with Rods which will do great in Awakened if you give them +1 to hit and they will do well with the Assault Stratagem.
Blows my mind that Annihilation Legion saw no changes and that GW hasn't restricted the amount of C'Tan that can be taken in a list.
Royal Warden for Necrons does not have the Noble Keyword. The 2 Models that this change affected were Imotekh and Trazyn.
@@MooncowsI missed this! That's a huge change. Does it include strategems that let multiple units move?
can’t wait for custodes points to drop enough for me to field all 10,000
So, by Januari then.
10,000 and one woman lmao
The annoying thing with Drukhari is that the faction has such a small playerbase that our winrate is being completely skewed up by a single player : Skaredcast who is one of the best 40k players in the entire world seriously, the dude wins tournaments 5-0 with his fluff armies (all wyches, all coven, etc...) Just for fun. When he doesn't play for a bit the winrate crumbles down to normal levels so it's kinda annoying to be getting the nerf bat because of one player.
what a loser.
Completely agree. I've been trying to learn drukhari and routinely getting stomped. My list just went up 95 points I'm sure that'll help me win 😂
Same for csm chaos cults frankly
Bullshit, I've seen their pickrate on all stat sites, you're smoking dope.
@redrumssam5888 you didn't read clearly. Drukhari has some exceptional players that help that win rate massively.
2 weeks ago they all coincidentally didn't compete and the win rate drop by nearly 10%
Using your logic orks came second at the London gt so they must also be broken and didn't need buffs no?
GW apparently called this “The feel-good update of the year”
at least they're trying for comedy
"We feel good about bending the players over the barrel" certainly.
unless you play Drukhari...
To be fair, as a non-competitive CSM player, I really enjoy the buffs to Vashtorr, Disco-Lord and other units. And i like how they handle units by adressing problematic sizes and not just nerfing the whole unit (only 5 Warp Talons getting a 10 point reducting, 10 Talons paying still the same).
As an ork it makes me feel pretty good..
How the hell did they manage to Q&A that Hellblasters can only shoot on death when its to an attack when theres a designers note *specifically calling out* that they can do it on hazardous fails?
Technically the hazardous damage is the result of an attack, nothing states they have to be the target of an attack
I feel this needs to be talked about more. It's a serious head-scratcher how that one got through, if they don't want them working that way they really need to get rid of the note.
oh yeah, now that is kinda confusing on their side
deadly demise or emergency debarquement
@@tcatcawpicard9011 Good call. That's actually a logical explanation.
Those poor Desolators, catching strays while sitting on the bench. Their mommas are going to have to tie a steak to their neck to get the dog to play with them.
Those things should be moved to the Ork roster and never touch SM again
I still use them, and my list went down close to 100 points, so now I see their spot on my army with these discounts, or you can get them out and add more horde style....
so glad 1 single skew list meant a heavy nerf hammer for Black Templars.
Yep. Gotta love good ol’ GW logic: “THEY WON A TOURNAMENT! NERF EM TO THE GROUND!”
I can't remember an update this edition that didn't involve the Templars getting punished for daring to win at a tournament.
@@LordCrate-du8zm Black templars have been one of the strongest armies for most of the edition though
I remembered the one tournament game where the Ork player won turn 1, that nuked flyers and the orks at the same time. It was pretty hilarious actually since the changes came almost immediately after.
@@DrakonPhDbut they were very balanced just before this nonsense
I don’t know how auspex can physically make videos faster
He’s not
Real
He’s an AI
Neuralink, its the only way.
He's the goat of informational video production
Dark Age Cloning Tech.
From the moment he realized the weakness of his flesh, it disgusted him.
GW "Stop taking the same characters"
BT player "I only have 3 really so what else am I suppose to do?"
GW "well since you keep taking them they must be good so we are gonna increase their points again. Also stop taking your best units"
BT "What? Literally everyone takes their best units. Our win rate isn't even that high right now and we only have 2 unique viable units"
GW "Sure but your above 40% and for a marine faction that is to high"
Buddy as a World Eaters player I’m with you. They keep increasing the cost of the master of executions when he’s the only character on foot outside of Kharn. H went from 80 pts at the beginning of the edition to 110 now. It’s incredibly frustrating.
I feel exactly the same. BT is the army where I have the most points at the moment and we just get nerfed every, single point update. It is not even funny anymore.
If PSB also got hit this update that would have probably been my 13th reason
That massive point drop for Guilliman is nice
He really needed it. Unless the planned on rewriting his buffs and his resurrect.
@@Romancenturion-no3cm hope not. He's not that great as is. If they nerf him further I can't see him being viable in any list
@Djones0125 he hits hard but can't take many hits, and his buffs are I think not great
@@Romancenturion-no3cm buffs are "ok" +1 OC, second Oath of moment, and a free stratagem.
But, like you said, he's not that great.
One day my beloved Ultramarines will actually be good. This is a good and very cool step in the right direction
You know the rules are a mess when the 35 page FAQ is longer than some games complete rules
9th edition was a complete mess, and now 10th is also a complete mess. This company never learns anything. Baffled why the community doesn't just walk away from the official 40k rules altogether and just make their own community edition of the game that is balanced at this point.
@@cinifiend ok make us free rules since it is so easy
@@noha112Deal. Ill start on that with a small group.
"Walk away" he says, while still being in the community himself.
@@cinifiend i legit have no idea what you are smoking, but 9th and 8th was unfathomably unbalanced and unclear during most of their run. Compared to that, 10th is extremely balanced (if you ignore the launch fkups)
GW surely are getting Blightlord terminators and Death shroud terminators mixed up, Blightlords are the ones that no one uses 😅
That’s what I thought haha
Me seen making scythes out of toothpicks and plasticard because I've got 20 blightlord terminators and zero deathshroud because back in 8th edition when I bought/played them, everyone pushed to buy blightlords and avoid deathshroud like the plague :')
I feel like space marines need to do something similar to imperial agents did where divergent chapters and the main space marine codex chapters have different point sets to allow for unique balancing. Like nerfing things that were only uniquely good in BT or BA for the entirety of space marines kinda kills off some chances to make more fun lists for non divergent chapters
So, what we had before 10th?
They should restrict chapter specific units to that chapter's detachments. That let's you balance the points appropriately, as you don't have to worry about unintended rules interactions so much.
they kind of already did that with black templars.
@@rant585 if thats what it was then yeah, i started playing in 10th so no clue how it was beforehand
@@Square_Planar Or just limit the Divergent Chapters to only being able to take the basic Gladius detachment from the basic codex...
Better yet, feth this detachment BS and bring back subfaction rules like we had in 8th & 9th
Me watching Heavy Intercessors become cheaper (I’m an Imperial Fists player):
Same
Oh hell yeah! Good thing my list has them already
10 heavys are cheaper than 20 warriors feelsbad man
For Dorn.
Heck, I'm more of a Salamanders guy, and I STILL have a bunch of these dudes. They are just plain cool!
Grey Knights player here, I feel like GW doesn't get that the reason we bring so many Dreadknights is because they're basically our only viable answer against high Toughness units. The only other options we have our Mortal Wound spam from our librarians and the occasional Lascannons from vehicles which don't synergize with our army.
I agree, it’s our only reliable unit that can actually fight against tough enemies. If they gave us our hammers back, it’ll more likely reduce how many dread knights we’ll take.
Imagine if Psyker were still a thing and we had a power that allowed high damage during a phase specifically designed for that unique aspect of the game?
It's because they're a psyker-focused army and this entire edition seems to have been a war on psykers.
That's like how Codex Marines get nerfed for spamming because a lot of their options are costed poorly. I feel you brother.
Basically every army that is not on the top spots is suffering from this. We spam our most efficient unit becuase the rest are just plain bad, in comes the nerf bat. And then they reduce the points a little on units where the cost is not the entire problem, but the rules or stats or lack of a specific use.
Someone in marketing noticed all the speeders , ATV etc that line the shelves of Warhammer stores aren't selling so well i see...
I'm not going to play with that McDonald's toy looking ATV.
Yeah, it's so funny to me that people think these points changes and dataslates are about balance...... !
GW would have pay ME to take one of Mario karts.
Everyone's commenting on the ATV and that's fair, but real talk: I'd love to see Landspeeders playable again. I miss that part of SM so much.
Yep and instead of buffing the terminators or any of these units in any meaningful way they take the easy way out that is the quickest and cheapest method of "uhh lower the points?" This company is a joke.
Space Marines really needs to start having chapter specific points costs for the general units. Make it easier to balance overall and would stop one chapter causing a price hike for everybody.
It is pretty dumb that the divergent Chapters can do all the things Codex Space Marines can do, plus all of their own stuff; it gives you very little reason not to run one of the divergent Chapters.
They should be at least limited to the Detachments in their own Codices, and possibly unit restrictions as well.
Space wolves have unit restrictions, GW just doesn't care enough to keep the list up to date (having skyclaws should 100% lock out jump pack inters). They laid the groundwork and then just ignore it for years at a time. They also constantly forget to update the other half of the list. Long Fangs are Devastators with a slightly different ability, and they just now lost the 30pt tax for the exact same stats.
Which is all the say I 100% agree with you, just that even when GW does it they mess it up.
Can't understand why GW can't see that their weird compulsion to make all the divergent chapters use the same data sheets makes balancing them and the vanilla chapters impossible. Separate the lists and you can balance them properly. It doesn't matter if intercessors cost different amounts in different armies if they do different things!
YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH THE LION DOESNT COST 300 POINTS FUCK YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Knights at 250 tho
I'm genuinely surprised Khorne Berzerkers haven't gone down in price considering their ability got hardcore nerfed.
God forbid we're allowed to play anything other than Angron & 8bound spam...
We can't have actual choice in the game, the mouth breathing "Tournament" try-hards would no longer be able to predict the only playable lists... >.>
@@drunkenastarte5243 Balancing the game around nothing but the tournament players is so wild to me. Literally one guy plays one list at a few tournaments and GW goes, "But the win rate" and nerfs the entire faction.
@@drunkenastarte5243 I love Eightbound as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want my entire army to consist of them. The whole identity of WE is Khorne Berzerkers, why are they so underwhelming lol
How has their ability been nerfed? Do you mean blood surge??
As a thousand Sons player I honestly think we got one of the better indexes; we have a very good army rule, and the cabal system faithfully retains what was once the psychic phase. Magnus rocks, most of our units are at the very least viable, if not downright good, and all of our stratagems synergize very well with the army. It all feels very complete, and not to mention fits very well thematically
As such, thousand sons are still winning tournaments, rocking locals, and in my opinion are very fun to play, even with an index that is over a year old now.
Even with these point nerfs I believe we will be ok somewhat
But I pray on my knees nightly that we get our codex dead last this edition, no matter what is in store for us it will certainly not be as complete or enjoyable as it is right now.
Yes dead last please, I need more time to paint😅
bro is smoking STRAIGHT METH, if he thinks this, all the units that got nerfed were the ONLY units in Ksons that were good, everything else was actually very bad, Scarab occult are garbage, wildly over costed for what little they do, vehicles acrossed the board can't even interact with our factions base rules, Magnus is incredibly mediocre in fighting and shooting, its the reason why every army includes him and then has him hide in the very back board to sit and be nothing more than a home field objective holder and ritual point battery, Thousand sons were winning tournaments because of the uniquely A symetrical way people build and PLAY army lists in a tournament, but in casual games I wanna say thousand sons were more bottom middle, their over reliance on Doombolt to do the heavy lifting for their army's killing and temporal surge for their armies movement is a MASSIVE crutch that they lean way too much on due to their overall over costed and really mediocre stats and base rules.
the 40k team needs to take a note from the AoS team for update formatting. it is so much harder to tell what changed, and by how much, in the 40k update documents than the new AoS documents, where updates and points changes are clearly marked, all in a single document, and the amount of those changes are also noted.
So glad drukhari got absolutely nuked when it's one of the hardest armies to pilot effective and it's win rate is proped up by 2 or 3 exceptional players.
Honestly not even sure what army to play now between my orks, drukhari and deathguard.
I feel you... my DG, WE's & Orks have been garbage all edition
And now my Flesh Tearers are just a paint scheme. >.
My Salamanders are already doing pretty badly among my hobby group, I still have fun using them but they got even more expensive now...
I don't own any of the stuff that got buffed except for one terminator squad, my group is very casual but we do tend to stick to the newest rules and missions.
I've been playing since 8th edition and more often than not it feels like tournament lists have often negatively impacted a lot of the games changes for my casual group of kitchen table buddies.
There were definetly times armies needed to be nerfed, when we noticed, even in casual games, that certain things were way too strong, but most of the time it just throws a nuke into your fun lists.
Won't break my army, a small adjustment and I'm good to go.
But my reaction was kind of an "Aww man, why...?"
Then don't use it?
@@RickCorvus Kind of a tough ask when you've finally painted all your little plastic guys the way you want with the little flames on them and stuff, but yeah, I'll probably at least be asking the guys to bring some of their weaker factions or more outlandish lists.
@@Dissension77 or you could just don't use the new points?
If you and your friends just play on the kitchen table
No need to use point updates you guys don't like
@@RickCorvus fair point, but the apps we use for list building kind of automatically update them, of course, and we do kind of feel obligated to play the most recent rules and missions.
It's not like the list was hit too hard, a minor adjustment will do, it just doesn't feel that great when you have to downsize a list that's already not that great right now.
I do still love my little green guys.
I'm a Salamanders fan as well, and I prefer somewhat fluffy lists rather than pure competitive optimization. I'm probably going to keep using Eradicators, regardless of the points just because I feel like they fit well. It does suck to see them go up, but I can understand why they got hit. Their basic datasheet was among the best anti-tank across the board, no matter what chapter/detachment you were playing. They didn't touch the points on Aggressors or Infernus squads, which is good since they didn't get nerfed, but Flamestorm Aggressors could probably have used a little help and didn't get it. Since they share a sheet with Boltstorm Aggressors though, I can kind of understand why the whole unit didn't get buffed. The Terminator buffs are nice, but I tend to play more of a Primaris force rather than 1st company so i don't really have any of those either.
Honestly, the biggest frustration for me was the mass squatting of units at the beginning of 10th. Before that my Salamanders used to be centered around some ancient dreadnoughts: Bray'arth Ashmantle, a Contemptor Dread with the forge world Salamanders body, and a primaris techmarine were my core. I also had one of the forge world dreadnought drop pods for Mr. Ashmantle to ride to battle in. Of those units, only the techmarine didn't get sent to Legends. So, the core of my force was gutted and now my army is kind of a pile of heavy infantry at the moment. I'm working on building up some of the new Primaris dreadnoughts to get some of the old feel back, but my motivation isn't super-strong right now.
A strange twist, Grot Tanks and Grot Mega Tank caught buffs in the Legends document (Grot Tank's Shoota and both unit's Grotzooka)
This is great I have a grot tank army
Land Raider Achilles Lost its pintle weapons options.
That is weird... meanwhile the Wraithseer's "D-cannon" which costs more than a bright lance is still identical to a single wraithguard's gun but with 6 inches extra range, when it used to be an actual D-cannon...
Grot tanks grot tanks grot tanks yayyyyy! I just finished 3d printing a bunch of them. I'm planning on running kustom mega-blasta spam
Did Black Templars get nerfed again?
Edit: They sure did.
Points Updates are out for like 3 Hours, Auspex allready has an 1 hour Video ready. Amazing guy
GW: "Lets punish the thousand sons for using cabal points"
I'm particularly irritated by rubrics going up for a 5 man unit. I think they should be 95pts.
"We may force them to use other units" proceed to don't buff scarab...
With how much they hate psykers this edition, it makes sense. Can't have a psychic army these days.
I mean we have been the best army in the game for months, what did you expect lol
@@axel9937 i know right? This trend is upsetting across many of the factions where they nerf the strongest things to encourage diversity but leave the most unused models unchanged or give them a measely 5 point drop or something.
God forbid the Marines have something to counter the tank meta that is RULING this edition with no mercy. Theres no reason to not take Eradicators, and GW just went "nah, you dont get that option"
They're trying to get SM to 39% or lower.
theres plenty of reasons not to take eradicators. theyre miserably slow for one. and D3 meta weapons kill them pretty easily. and marines can spam vehicles too (and do!).
@@Khobai That's Eliminators. Eradicators are D6(+2) damage
@@brothertobias He means Damage 3 weapons take down eradicators and many weapons used in the meta fit this threshold.
@@silverfortune2205 yep 3 damage weapons are very common in the meta for obvious reasons.
Oh goodie, Plagueburst Crawlers are still 10 points more expensive than wardog brigands and have about half the damage output and speed. Why are we still paying for indirect fire shenanigans we no longer have?
Same reason Desolators are still paying for their sin of being actually useful in the past.
Welp, SM got points cuts for bad meme units nobody uses and points raises for what's actually good, as per usual. God forbid a 40% win rate faction be allowed good things, huh?
130 ballistus is nice at least
@@politiciancranberry The ballistus is just not very good. It has 2 mediocre antitank guns with low volume, which makes them incredibly unreliable.
The thunderstrike going down 10 points is nice. It's a slept on unit. Just the thunderstrike though not the other speeders
@@Greatkingrat88 It essentially always re-rolls to hit. That makes it a lot less unreliable.
Isn't this the whole premise of points changes? If points are lowered, the unit is bad and they want you to use it more. If points are raised, they want you to use it less, and, when you do, the unit should be worth a higher percentage of your 2k. This is intentional.
For the custodes, the Telemon got a new rule for his fists:
Devoted to Destruction: If this model is equipped with 2 Telemon caestus weapons in addition to its armoured feet weapon, add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of those Telemon caestus weapons.
WTF Evil Elves? We don't get a choice, we have to take an Archon and Incubi, they are compulsory in the faction. Some factions get niche changes, Drukhari get nerfs to required units?
Not as brutal as expected, but nearly every unit I run is now more expensive. +10 per unit, nearly across the board is really going to hurt.
Its what you deserve for such a high win rate.
SM got nerfs to key units, too. And we suck.
Two of my three factions are Drukhari and BT...
the fact desolation squad is still 200pts is wild as well. I swear like 70% of the space marine section in all my LGS are just desolation kits that have been there since their release.
Ugly kit and terrible overpriced rules is an easy way to not get bought. My local Warhammer store is pretty much just combat patrols and unsold aircraft
Indirect fire is a mess with them now, take the Sgt's Vengor launcher for example ,hits on 2+ but 3+ with the indirect penalty but the indirect fire key says hits of 1-3 always fail so your actually having to hit on 4s instead so just getting double fucked imo.
Pretty sure they just straight up forgot about them. Same with Eliminators STILL being at 85 pts. lol.
@@StaticSilence1 Tbf I like running Eliminators
Desolators could cost 15pts a unit and I still wouldn’t buy those dog ass sculpts
Custodes got a sneaky addition with a second telemon ability
I have been wondering why the two caestus thing hasn't been acknowledged all edition. I now wonder why they did +2 attacks rather than twin linked, but I'm not going to complain (aside from not having better melee than other dreads by default).
You Forgot Necrons Monolith Big Nerf, now it costs 400 (375) 😓😭
Good spot, thanks for the heads up! Will add it to the pinned correction comment above. Yeah a bit sad for that one...
It should cost 1000. Braindead necron gamers just take 4 big guys and have fun while factions without high Damage units play cap points and just roll saves
Idk if anyone saw this but Chaos Lord in Termies plate also added Chaos Lord. Meaning Fellhammer, he can take Bastion Plate by rules.
So Fellhammer sucks a little bit less
they should make the det rule affect melee too :D and the 5fnp strat
@@iikkakangas2586 No, but the thing is Fellhammer's supposed to shoot...in an army that does most of its damage in melee.
I don’t see it mentioned that Surge Moves are only once Per phase now, that’s a pretty huge change for some units and detachments
The unending swarm detachment is so weak now, they nerfed that one to the ground now imo.
My poor Templars 😭. Every MFM +60 points
As a TSons player, this hurts. I get that we had a good win percentage, but this isn't going to change army building at all, because it's a nerf to literally all of our viable options, minus Helbrutes. It just means we get to take less stuff.
Surely that is exactly the point for your faction? You have the highest win rate in the game, I would imagine the exact intention is to tone your army down a bit.
@@samhunter1205 Our win rate was 56%. That's only 3% higher than the Space Wolves, who got 3 targeted nerfs and 4 buffs.
Plus it's not really about the win rate. We have the smallest unique range in the entire game. I could understand giving Magnus a points bump, if it came along with making some other choices a bit more viable, but nerfing all of our actually unique stuff - and, notably, everything that actually generates Cabal Points (except for the Terminator Sorcerer for some reason) - just feels punitive.
@@peterlepper5199I am convinced the only reason the termie sorcerer is ignored is because it’s a kitbash, and you hit the nail on the head, we aren’t mad we got nerfed, we are sad cause the nerfs don’t actually open up any meaningful decision points in future list building, to your point it’s not that the best builds will just have to deal with having less stuff, it’s that any list just has to deal with having less stuff cause we have no lateral replacements for our tiny range
41:02 Let's be perfectly clear, much like Admech I think TONS of people WANT to play GSC, they have a fun aesthetic, pretty good lore and engaging mechanics on the tabletop. They're SO EXPENSIVE! Even by GW's ridiculous price standards you need tons of them and tons of character models which means paying the 5X$ character levy probably over a dozen times. A 2000pt army is going to cost more than building yourself a new pc no question and It's really hard to justify that expenditure even with sufficient disposable income which not many of us are packing at the moment.
With the way the detachments work, hyper emphasizing a subset of units, you kinda need multiple 2000 point armies as well. Loads of Acolytes and Metamorphs for Xenocreed, loads of Aberrants and Purestrain for Broodsurge etc. The detachments don't feel like different ways to play the same units, they feel more like mini armies of different units.
I've no idea how points are supposed to be balanced in that model, either. How do you avoid a unit either being undercosted when used in the matching detachment or overcosted in an "off" detachment use?
Yes they're crazy expensive, but you can trim about a quarter of the cost by kitbashing characters. Trucks come with extra bodies and you have lots of leftover bits from acolyte/neophyte sprues
In case there was any doubt from anywhere in the world that GW does not play its own game, 1.13 has officially removed it. The previous data slate devastated Ironstorm and crippled Firestorm, now I guess they've decided that Gladius should be wrecked to make sure marines drop even further. +15 points to the Apothecary Biologis, another points increase for Fire Discipline, Aggressors, already grossly over costed, were not touched and Eradicators going up. I guess they really don't like the gravis combo keeping Gladius relevant. Does GW really think that minor points drops on mediocre to bad units and crippling increases to our best units is going to take us out of the low 40% bracket?
And if ALL this still doesn't convince you that GW is utterly out of touch, Deathshroud terminators were lowered AGAIN. AGAIN!!! 33.33 ppm for one of the strongest units in 40k.
I haven't had time to go over the rest, but as a SM and DG player, this is the single most tone-deaf update I've seen in my life.
@@JimH. Dude they want you to buy some different units. Everyone has aggressors, inceptors, jump pack intercessors. Now they want you to buy some land speeders. That's all this is. Why do you think many of the units coming out in the combat patrol magazine went down in points?
@@HB2K-h8m I'm well aware of how GW alters game rules to sell other units, but it doesn't change the fact that this is utterly terrible "balancing."
Gw: buy space marines
Humam: why?
Gw: super soldier badasses that are walking tanks in armour!
Human: oh wow, in your game they must win everything!
Gw: noooooooooo...dont be silly we hate them but can't admit it because thats our money maker"
Ah yes the buff to Reivers truly our most vital units
They could make Reivers 10 ppm and they'd still suck. This concept continues to elude GW.
They really care about "Space Marines" part of CSM too much :(
Wish we got proper Renegades and Heretics with full guard vehicle support
Kroot armies: WE ARE SO BACK!
The repentia definitely should have had a point drop.
Blows my mind that they're releasing a Penitent Host Christmas box and didn't think, 'hey maybe we should make Penitent Host viable right before we release this?'
I'm angrier than normal at Gw. (World Eaters player)
My 1k sororitas list had already lost 200 points going into the codex, and now I've lost another 50.
Dropping a castigator is my only option, and cutting one basically.means my list is unplayable against half of the local meta since my army needed it to pressure monster and parking lot lists.
GW didn't even fix the points cost of sacresancts, which have been nigh unplayable the entire edition.
I'm so mad.
Why? Change isn’t that bad. As another WE player
As another World eaters player i am a bit indifferent about these changes, sure Angron went up, but what do you expect of a monster like that that can revive. The Daemon prince with wings point drop is a nice consolation for me since he was 1 of my go too characters anyways. The other point changes feel a bit unnecessary but i can live with em.
@@Whoknows21356 Found the Tzeentch cultist!
World Eaters just need more than 4-5 functional datasheets!
Take anything beyond Angry Ron + 8bound spam and the entire faction is basically unplayable
May be a niche crowd.
BUT
Grey Knights in terms of Boarding Actions got a huge buff.
Before the points kinda awkwardly gave us access to maybe one squad of Purifiers and one squad of Paladins with a character, and an awkward 60 or so points with nothing to field. Now with 10 points reduced you can field a second character out of the smaller ones.
I'm kinda feeling
1x Grand Master
1x Chaplain
1x5 Strike
1x5 Terminators
For a total of 495 points or 500 if you swap the Chaplain for a Brotherhood Champion.
Was checking to see if he had done it already when it dropped 😂
At this point I'm comvinced that someone on the balance team has a personal vendetta against World Eaters, since they keep getting nerfed despite being in line or even underperforming. And they're at 49% not 51%. The points nerfs dont seem as bad until you realize that it kills most lists and makes filling huge points gaps impossible due to the small number of viable units. They also may have nerfed Blood Surge on Berzerkers to once per phase depending on how TOs rule on the new "surge" rules. If thats the case, theyre a dead unit because the threat of them getting to you from shooting them disappears entirely.
As someone who doesn't have/want to ever use Angron, WE's are simply unplayable at this point
@Auspex....the biggest Nerf for WE and Nids was the rule change for Blood Surge move to 1per turn.
Im convinced they fisrt look at their warehouses to check what boxes havent sold yet and then make a decision on what to nerf and what to buff.
You better believe this is true!
Is it because everyone buys 3 of a strong unit and barely buys anything else? Or that they want to bring back a unit that hasn't been played for months to years? Or that the strong units are played on tournament top tables and weaker units aren't, so Gw tries to internal balance? Of course money is a factor but it is far more complicated
Sometimes, but Bullgryns and Ogryns come in the same box.
Kind of funny the ballistus got dropped to 130 but the first borne dreadnought is still 135.
Can't buff old models
Indeed, basically its already removed in the minds of GW and it's definitely getting removed first chance they get (like they did with the BA dreads)
@@Hans_Unique_Handle as if vanguard vets needed nerfing, it's a feels bad move because people were running sang guard as vanvets to match the loadout and squad size of their existing models
@@bojoggs-ik8tq Let's be honest, at 40% WR *nothing* needed nerfing.
I suspect Vanguard Vets are getting phased out, though. Their setup is an afterthought in the Codex and they directly compete with Bladeguard and Jump Intercessors.
Whether we get Bladeguard with Jump Packs is anyone's guess. Although I feel it would be kinda off with their aesthetic.
@@bojoggs-ik8tq Yeah the Firstborne Dread feels like it's borderline legends as is. In a weird way seeing what units are constantly neglected (not even receiving nerfs) gives a pretty good idea of what's getting the axe in 11th.
If you like the Ven Dread, better get it now.
So now i gotta redo my space marines list again cause god forbid space marines have anything good thanks gw
It’s almost like their 22% win rate is too high so they had to be nerfed
Bullgyrns deserve to be punished for their sins. Guard really needs about a dozen other buffs but we didn’t see them because 18 Bullgyrn was the meta.
Tank Commanders getting Squadron will have to do I guess
Yikes 😂
We really need an answer for our artillery. Its a big part of the faction and they are all mostly useless now as indirect fire has been nerfed into the ground. Guard keeps winning with other gimmicks like tank spam, Bullgryn spam, and more. I'm glad the faction can maintain such decent win rates, but there are so many units that are shelved because of blanket rule changes like the indirect fire one.
I think almost doubling in points is a bit extreme, it's not like they buffed much else for guard.
1. Continually reduce the points cost of most units every couple of months
2. Reduce the minimum requirement for a game with the official rules to 1000 points
3. Make the standard points amount for a game 2000 points (remember when it was 1500?)
4. And, of course, keep up the regular price increases
6. Now, even adjusted for inflation, the cost of playing is pretty much double of what it used to be.
7. Profit. And most people miss it too . . .
Funny enough: someone actually calculated the price increase and it was just keeping up with inflation. Just an FYI.
But this is a complicated matter, as your current living place does highly influence prices. Some got hit a lot harder than others
All other points I do agree to a certain extent.
@InquisitorPinky in the US I'm paying a 45% premium and we still get price increases almost every year. That shit ain't keeping up with inflation and as someone who has worked in international shipping, it doesn't cost that much either.
GW are the definition of greedy.
@@anthonyroberts3610 as I said, some regions get hit a lot harder. For me in Europe it is just the inflation increase. So from my perspective GW isn’t just greedy ;)
@@InquisitorPinky I'm sorry but a single box of intercessors being 70 USD is insane.
I remember when 1500pt was standard.
I'm currently painting my first ever 1000 points army. It's an ork army with 2 kill rigs.
These buffs are massive, but also means, I might need to purchase more models lol, as I now have 50 more points to work with..
Now you have grots to babysit a point
@@WilhelmScreamer I already have two units of 11 lol.
you can never have too many grots XD
wish that Vashtorr and the Lord Discordant could benefit from the Vashtorr themed Detachment.
Lord Discordant just don't fit in anywhere, and his ranged should have the pistol keyword as a 3" range is basically in melee.
Vashtorr got FAQ'd to be able to use 3 of the detachment strats, and got a points drop. But yeah, disco lord still needs some love
At 45:06 it is mentioned that the Obeisance Phalanx keyword change, going from Overlord to Noble, will be helpful for things such as the Royal Warden. This is incorrect, as the Royal Warden does not have the Noble keyword. The only thing this change does is allow Imotekh the Stormlord and Trazyn the Infinite to benefit from the rule and by extension any units led by them.
I remember the Royal Warden having the Noble keyword, but you're right, he doesn't. Was I imagining this? Or did it get changed at some point?
Hey, Imotekh is actually really big, the OP strats are pretty good and letting him buff up an immortals squad instead of needing an overlord is actually really good synergy now. And I guess Trazyn can stand in for an overlord if you’re over 10 points if you REALLY need noble on the immortals. Overall OP stocks are climbing right now, might even make it better than Awakened Dynasty now
@Prometheus_UwU Oh, yeah I'm definitely happy about OP getting some buffs. It's my preferred thematic detachment, so I'm giddy to try out a game with it
Szarekh does not have the "noble" keyword either sadly.
While it's not a perfect implementation, it does give Obeisance Phalanx some much needed flexibility by helping Warriors & Immortals punch a bit higher without needing an Overlord along with the loooong overdue points buff to Praetorians and Stalkers.
@nightwatchm4n they gave him the Triarch keyword though? Am I missing an interaction with Noble for The Silent King?
GIVE ME BACK GRANULAR POINTS, GW, YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKS!!!
I literally JUST finished assembling and priming my 1k, fluff-based Space Marine list (995pts) and now the ONLY option I have is to drop the enhancement off my captain and slap a crappier, cheaper one in. Because Jump Intercessors pumped it to 1005, and so illegal.
I can't drop an add-on off a vehicle, I can't drop a single model from a squad, I can't change a weapon upgrade. The 'Simple' points system is stupid, frustrating dogshit. Granular points worked FINE for 9 god damned editions, and I'm continuosly hacked off by how bad the set points costs are for 40k. Easy to balance? Stupid to balance, more bloody like.
GW is moving in the direction of balancing costs differently for 5 man vs 10 man units, so that's not happening.
Best solution I have found: stop playing GW rules. Power level in place of points was one of the tipping points that pushed me to explore other systems, and eventually write my own.
Deathguard needed a blightlord terminator adjustment as well
We need a lot of internal balance and better data sheets for a lot of our units
A rules adjustment ideally. I love those fat little bois, but every time I look at them, I can't help but wonder why I'm running five termies who are mediocre at 2 things when I could be running more Deathshrouds, who are REALLY good at one thing and are much better uses of the rest of DG's terminator leaders.
Deathguard just need a full on re-write...
For the faction who's identity is mean to be "super tough, grinding infantry advance", they're insanely squiahsy. So sick of being forced to always hide my stinky boyz in Rhinos. Not to mention Blightlords are hilarious awful.
We need our codex
@@Almighty_Mage true
Oh cool Vanguard Veterans got nerfed because yeah soo many were using them. Also that Death Company cost of 130 makes me physically sick if that actually is the cost they're going with because apparently the Codex 115/230 was already upsetting me. At least the DC Dreadnought is significantly less stupid costed.
Vanguard vets were so terrible that I wasn't even going to bother. Last night I drummed up a list with them to at least give them a shot, and now because of the new update the roster is over. Forget it.
Video chapter label has the Black Templars section listed as a duplicate Grey Knights
I never thought that 10th could become more of a dumpster fire than 9th, but here we are...
I expected nothing, I knew this was going to be a small update with no big changes that could actually fix the codex/divergent marine divide, and yet I'm still disappointed.
What the genuine fuck is the point of playing codex marines anymore when all GW does is nerf them for the sins of the divergent chapters. I know exactly how they could fix this problem, and I have no faith that they will do anything actually helpful. At this point my space marine army is going to sit on the shelf until 11th edition.
As a salamanders player I am also in agony. Praying this is all in the name of internal balance of marines while they fix us with a fat patch in a couple months
Just bring AoC for free just for Vanilla chapters
If you cant make space marines work you are just a bad player imo
@@timostegemann9738 yeye ye, old boomers song. Fu** off.
@timostegemann9738 a good list and a fun, flavourful list are very different things, I'll be happy when my lists can be both at the same time but rn it's good OR flavourful
3 invictor suits 375 points? good bye horde enemies xD
Welp, so much for the good run of Sisters of Battle
Yep...we enjoyed our couple months basking in the Light of the Emperor
Space wolves topped the meta for like 4 months, 10 point increase on 2 units.
Sisters dominate for about 2-3, and they give us like 200 points nerf across the board. Nothing proper went down in points either, sacresants are still massively overcosted
@@jacket2848 Repentia are by far the biggest offender in the over-costed category. Eviscerators are only arguably slightly better than halberds but while both have T3, Repentia back that up with a 6+ invul and a 5+ FNP. At least Sacresants have 3+ armor and a 4+ invul plus the ability to get -1 to opponent's rolls to wound them (behaves like T4 but better because it caps wound rolls at 3+ if the enemy doesn't have +1 somewhere), Repentia struggle to get a character at all, not even priests. To top it all off Sacresants cost 15 pts/model, Repentia cost 18 pts/model...WHY?
When looking at the pre-codex and post-codex values I look at the buffs and say "would I have paid the points cost to take this as an upgrade were it optional?" Repentia at +7 pts/model for sustained hits 1 and re-rolls to hit and wound all the time (assuming the Repentia superior is alive) instead of only on the charge? Nope, +1 or +2 pts/model maybe is fine, +7 is not close. Sacresants got an additional attack on their melee as well as other rules like lethal hits or sustained hits 1, was it worth 2pts/model for those upgrades? Maybe, problem was Sacresants weren't really worth 13 pts each as a base cost. Zephrim are also pretty bad, losing +1S on the charge in exchange for lethal hits or sustained hits (or both for a miracle die) and went from 12pts/model to 18pts/model, now down to 17pts/model. Since the most common enemy is marines, or generally a T4 enemy, the option I would choose on the charge is +1S, except, oh wait...that's not an option any more, so I guess now I go lethal hits against T4 or greater and sustained against T3 or less.
Other things worth mentioning is why are Paragons and penitent walkers basically the same cost? Penitent walkers have two heavy bolters AT BEST, compared with a multi-melta and a grenade launcher. The paragons are T7 which is a big break point because it means S12 needs a 3+ to wound instead of a 2+. Not to mention penitents have a 4+, 6++, 5+++ compared to 2+, 4++ plus with bonuses to hit and wound the paragons are much more reliable and stronger AND can be joined by Vahl to really boost them up. Yet three paragons = 220, three mortifiers = 210, three penitent engines = 225.
I would love to play the penitent list from time to time but I really can't in the state its units are in. The internal balance of the list was much better pre-codex than it is now. Arco-Flagellants are still pretty great though, not as great as when they had twin-linked, but still solid.
@@WoWisdeadtome I hear you on the Repentia. For sheer fun and curiosity purposes, I was recently hoping to test out a Penitent Host list that uses the Triumph to help slingshot units into combat.
Guess it's back to the drawing board for me.
@@jacket2848 Completely off, Wolves meta list went up by like 150 points.
Hey Auspex. One other thing for Custodes. GW updated some of the Imperial Armour datasheets. The Telemon gained a new ability buffing it if it takes two caestus. Not sure if there are any other changes, it's hard to tell. But they did update those to some degree
You can't attach inquisitors to FW guard anymore (sagitarrum and pyrithe).
Space marines we buffed your weak stuff then nerfed your good stuff so codex marines will still suck.
I've seen an update for Ork that is not shown, maybe it is older than i thought : Gretchin CP generation now trigger in movement phase, which mean you get it on first turn even if you're first player. Not a crazy thing but still nice.
Yeah, I believe that change happemed back when we got the codex
I regret getting into imperial knights. They were so cool in the beginning in 10th
Ayy me too man
My chaos knights have been sitting on the shelf for the majority of the edition.
They still are cool, don't get an army just because it's the flavour of the month and you won't feel punished
Aren't they currently a mid range faction that just got buffed?
@@Tehquallwhen where knights ever flavour of the month? Lol.
As an Orks player, i am pleased with our point cuts. I hope they revisit the Deffdread again this year, i want to use it but Killa Kans still edge them out of my lists.
I enjoyed how in the aryicle they linked to the pariah nexus card deck, which has veen sold out for months.
Yes. I've been waiting for it for months on top of store loyalty. Major rules required but not available.
One small note that was missed. The custodes Telemon heavy dreadnought now has a reason to take two fists. Previously the only benefit was getting an extra wrist mounted plasma flamer (d3 shots 7/2/1) but now the telemon gets an extra 2 attacks as well, bringing it up to A7 WS2+ 12/2/3
The Apothecary nerf is 100000000000% a salty GW employee that lost to the combo once. That is, if anyone over there actually plays or cares about the game
The hole BT nerf (3rd in a row) is a GW emloyee lost to them....
Nobody at GW plays ..... they call us sheep, meaning 'dumb and easily led'
I wonder if Sororitas are really going to change much. With only Battle Sisters going down, Seraphim going up, and Penitent units still looking pretty overcosted, it seems to me it will still be Bringer of Flame spam. Some Dominions might switch to Battle Sisters, maybe Morven Vahl gets dropped to pay for points increases. Now T5 W2 Chaos Havocs with Lascannons cost the same as T3 W1 Retributors with 18" Multimeltas, that's just great. Seems like a real missed opportunity to drop the cost of Penitent units in time for the Christmas box full of such units, along with the Combat Patrol with Arco Flagellants.
Surprised to finally see Aeldari go through a balance pass with only green. Doesn't seem like much will change though, except more Fire Dragons in Falcons. And I know it's too soon to expect changes for Imperial Agents but it's still disappointing they get nothing but an increase to Subductors for allies, and finally fixing the nesting Rhinos.
Bringers of Flame lets you kill things more reliably; or rather, it lets you excel in a role that you're being forced into anyway. It's simply the best option, because without it you're basically playing Space Marines but with less range and worse toughness and leadership. Most notably, it lets you hurt vehicles with meltas, which are your only option short of Exorcists or Castigators - Castigators are now only ten points less than a Leman Russ which has better save, toughness, wounds, and weapon options, and Exorcists cost 15 points MORE than the objectively superior Manticore. The only weapons Sisters have above S10 require you to get Paragon Warsuits into melee. In a world where you can face Knights lists where even the weakest unit in their army is T10, Meltas need all the help they can get. Things are going to stay this way until we return to the old status quo of 'Lascannons have long range, so don't hit as hard as Melta weapons' which is the obvious objective way to do things.
GW really don't seem to understand Retributors in the slightest. Comparing them to any other army's equivalent unit shows they're hilariously over-costed.
Triumph went up 60 points. That's absolutely massive. Most lists have gone up like 200 points, that's dropping two units. Morvenn can't be dropped really, she's the single thing in the army which can tank something
Yeah, I've spoken about this elsewhere, too.
Why do Paragons cost roughly the same as the penitent walkers? 3 Paragons = 220, 3 Mortifiers = 210, 3 Penitent Engines = 225.
Ranged weapons:
Paragons: Multi-melta and grenade launcher (also bolt pistol)
Mortifiers: Two Heavy Bolters
Penitent Engines: Two Flamers (with assault, combines well with its special rule)
Melee:
Paragons: Choice of anti-infantry War Blade: A4, WS 3+, S8, AP -2, D2, or anti-vehicle Mace: A3, WS 3+, S12, AP -1, D3
Mortifiers/Penitent Engines: Anti-Infantry Penitent Flail: A8, WS 3+ (4+ on engines), S5, AP -1, D1 [sustained hits 1] or Anti-Tank Buzz Blades: A4, WS 3+ (4+ on engines), S10, AP -3, D2. Either weapon has the option to be twin-linked if the other is not taken.
Defensive: stats not mentioned are equal
Paragons: T7, 4W, 2+ armor, 4+ invul
Mortifiers/Penitent Engines: T6, 5W, 4+ armor (3+ on one Mortifier per unit at the cost of movement), 6+ invul, 5+ FNP
Special Rules:
Paragons: Against monsters and vehicles +1 to hit and wound. (Conditional, but very powerful when applicable)
Mortifier: If killed in combat, can still fight on 2+ (Will often be irrelevant, only slightly useful when it does work and requires losing the unit)
Penitent Engine: Advance and charge. (Good)
So paragons have the best ranged weapons, their anti-infantry melee is the best particularly in the most common case (space marine or rough equivalent enemy), their anti-tank option is highest S but lacks AP (Penitent walkers are probably better at meleeing down vehicles assuming they twin-link the buzz blades, but any counter attack from vehicle tracks is much more threatening to them). Penitent Engines have the most universally useful special rule but Paragons have the strongest one if it is applicable. T7 makes S12 wound on 3+, big T hurdle that only the Paragons clear and Paragons can be joined by Vahl to make them REALLY shine. Basically there is no world in which Paragons should be 220 where three Mortifiers should not be 180 and three Penitent Engines 195.
I won't go as in depth with Repentia, but good god, 18 pts/model for a unit with T3, 6+ invul and 5+ FNP. Their weapons are only slightly better than Sacresant Halberds and Sacresants are virtual fortresses of indestructibility by comparison, especially if joined by a character that the Repentia can't even have without an enhancement available to only a single detachment and even then only one unit can have one. I'm not saying a Palatine should be able to naturally join this unit, I'm saying a priest (and only a priest) should. (If it were up to me this enhancement would cost 5pts but would cause the Palatine/Canoness to have a 7+ Sv, have their weargear options replaced with a Penitent Eviscerator (A4, WS 2+, S6, AP -2, D2 [sustained hits 1]) invul reduced from 4+ to 6+ and gain a 5+ FNP, gain the penitent keyword, be allowed to join a Repentia squad and this model can not be the army warlord). So how Sacresants ended up at 15 pts/model I have no clue even though both are overcosted. Remember that pre-codex Repentia were 11 pts/model and all they really got in the codex was sustained hits 1 for +7 points each. I would love to play a Penitent Host, but arco-flagellants can't carry the whole list by themselves (especially as they were ALSO nerfed in the codex release losing twin-linked and having their 4+ FNP reduced to 5+).
For CSM an interesting change is
Page 111 - Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, Keywords section Add ‘Chaos Lord’.
So Bastion Plate is now legit, am i right?
Pretty nuts a chaos lord wasn't allowed to buy an enhancement for chaos lords lol
I don't understand why GW hates Dark Angels right now... Their freaking Primarch came back.
Gladius Knights and friends was a bit too good.
But they desperately need buffs to their own detachments that all suck + fix Ravenwing
The Wraithknight points drop means it can be put into Strategic Reserves again. Overall I'd say that the Aeldari changes since the edition launch are a good example of measured changes to a faction and not desperate overreach such as Mega Nobz and, sadly, Desolation Squads (which are still, for some reason, 40 points per model after having all their rules nerfed into the ground).
Nerfing points, Rules and Strategems at the same time to affect a single unit in multiple ways is not a measured response, and that has happened multiple times to the Aeldari (eg Wraithknight, Wraithguard, Yncarne, Nightspinner). A measured response is doing only one of these at a time and observing the effect before making further changes.
James Workshop: These models are not selling and are gathering dust, give them precision, and a 15 point drop.
We sold them all boss: Okay, now put them in Legends.
There's a Nerf you missed that is pretty significant to Hellblasters, they now only shoot on death if they died as a result of an attack, so hazerdous rolls no longer trigger another volley.
For 115 points and a big red flag, that is a whack nerf.
People are arguing that the hazardous roll happens as a result of an attack, but I think that isn't the intention of these changes
@@WontonDestruction >Designer’s Note: This ability is triggered even when a model in this unit is destroyed as the result offailing a Hazardous test, meaning such a model may be able to shoot twice in the same phase.
Right there in black and white in the codex. Anyone arguing against this is just being an obtuse asshole- the unit is directly killed by an attack, even if it's your attack.
The intent of the FAQ is to stop dickheads from trying to shoot if they get killed by being out of coherency, reserves crap etc
Sucks my marine list got nerfed due to other chapters AGAIN
I dont understand the nerf to apothecary. Just because something is played doesnt mean its OP. Its just a solid unit. i feel like the nerfs ouweight the buffs. The Gulliman buff will be interesting tho
They absolutely just decide what units to raise the cost of based on what's played the most. It happens every time and is baffling.
@@SteveB182 its honestly just lazy. Feels like they don't play the game. They just see what people are playing to win and arbitrarily move the goal posts
Biologus change is a little frustrating - vanguard spearhead got a lot of direct nerfs, and now it keeps suffering from the sins of other lists as well
Yeah, I’ve been waiting for this. Awesome.
Now what on earth did Biologis do to warrant a nerf like this?
Biologis, Fire Discipline AND the Eradicators.
@@r3dmanMICLove how GW decided to nerf every single part of that combo for max collateral damage to other SM lists
@@Thebrothergrant Already went through it once with Aggressors. They used to be what, 100 pts per 3? Now they're 120.
In the name of 'internal balance' they've killed the few good things marines have. It's hard to take
Because dark angels we can't have nice things.
Want to see more Dreadnought buffs, for me they are classic core SM units and its a shame they aren't too competitive right now.
Not sure I can justify Black Knights, Ravenwing Command Squads or DarkShroud/Land Speeder Vengeance since they are first born units which means there is a good chance they are going to legends next year. The Stormspeeder points drop is great for Ravenwing, but I still think they should have received a 5++ like all the other Ravenwing units.
I bought a Ravenwing command squad just because they're the nicest biker unit GW have ever made.
Hopefully we finally get more Outrider units / options but I'm not holding my breath
Necrons:
No nerfs to C'tan or Hypercrypt
No buffs to warriors/immortals
Obeisance Phalanx and Annihilation legion still awful
Heavy destroyers got nerfed because they did too well in Hypercrypt (similar to how Canoptek Court got the doomstalker nerfed, which is now completely outdone by the doomsday ark)
At least we got cheaper praetorians
Normal Dreadnought now costs MORE than the Ballistus... way to kick something when it's already down GW
Lmao one of the most insane comparisons possible.
With las / missile.. the Ballistus has literally DOUBLE the shooting, 4 more wounds, faster, tougher, more OC..
Box dreads should genuinely be under 100 points.
About time Tank Commanders can order themselves.
You really a god! I was waiting for this since I saw the reddit posts.
4:30 the desolation squad still paying for their sins in very early 10th
105pt BSS is really nice, been needing a reason to take them and being 20pts cheaper than a dom squad isnt much but could be in certain lists
Desolation squad got the flyers treatment. Was an autotake now nerfed into the dirt.
If the problems are coming from space marine units being used with specific chapter rules, maybe nerf the chapter rules and not the unit ?
I was so excited to see the buffs until I saw the nerf to Fire Discipline and the Biologys. They really want to kill that combo, don't they? Jump Intercessors going up isn't a shock, but still sad.
But as many nerfs as buffs to a 40% WR army. Is that really necessary? Honestly, CSM is a better army and seemed to get better overall buffs than we did. Again. lol
Great video as usual! Thanks for covering the patch notes!