This is one of those situations where Tolkien could have woken up one day and decided “Oh yeah I’m not a professional cartographer, the East is probably 5000 miles longer than I listed.” Much like his time scale.
3:00 but are the elves said to have walked around the sea of Rhûn? It already existing doesn't necessarily disprove it being a part of Helcar. Kind of like the adriatic sea is part of the mediteranean, or the baltic sea is an extention of the north sea etc. It could just be a gulf of the sea of helcar.
One can imagined that the Sea of Helcar drying up is like the Aral Sea in today's modern time. Once a large inland sea near the center of Eurasian continent. Now a shadow of its former self. Almost dried up due of Soviet Union in 1960s irrigation plan to divert the waters over cotton farming. The Sea of Helcar might not be totally gone. Perhaps a small portion of it exist in easternmost. So the bay of Cuiviénen could still be around. The view from the bay doesn't look like a long blue horizon though since the remains of Helcar would be a small lake.
I never learn a thing from your videos but they arent made for me necessarily. The point is even though I know all of this already, I still enjoy watching these videos. That's a testament to the quality.
I have a idea for a video, although you explained why Eriador remained depopulated i always had the question why was also most of Rohan and Gondor depopulated? Like Gondor in the end of the Third Age only had 3 cityes. Minas Tirith, Pelargir and Dol Amroth and Minas Tirith only held half the population it could, and most of the Western country side mas mostly underpopulated. And Rohan didnt really expand its population since its founding either.
One thing to mention is how the Ice Age greatly influenced Tolkien's geographical work for Middle-Earth Earth, being a prehistoric national epic for England and (to a lesser extent) a Pan-European epic. Just as how Middle-Earth (especially the Western lands and Rohan) are supposed to be Ice Age Europe, with Doggerland covering all of Britain and Far-Western Europe at the time, the sea of Helcar is eerily similar to the 'Caspian Lake', which was larger than today's 'Caspian Sea' covering large portions of Central Asia and Russia until it gradually dissipated when the Ice Age stopped.
Hi Darth! If Professor Tolkien had lived for another hundred years, I wonder how much time he would have spent expanding the world, versus altering the parts of the world he already wrote about. (Or rewriting Galadriel's arc for the hundredth time.)
If Mordor was roughly in the region of the Balkans, then the Sea of Rhun may have been a large lake in what is now around the Polish plain that has since dried out, and Helcar could be the proto-Black Sea before the (still hypothetical) deluge event around 7500 years ago. Or the proto-Black was actually Nurnen and Helcar was the Caspian. Tolkien's distances are often a bit wonky so I wouldn't put much on the notion that Rhun was only 400 miles from Cuivienen. Of course the actual answer is probably that Helcar was an antique notion that the good professor subsequently forgot all about/abandoned as the world evolved, but its ghost lingered on in early writings that simply never got revised
Well thats some timing needed a video for lunch and like a wizard this arrives 😉 thanks for all you do brother its appreciated in case you hadnt heard it in a while lol i know the research time isnt negligible
In Theory: The Sea of Helcar & Sea of Ringil both dried out, yet still exist in our world today. Helcar meaning Ice-Cold and the Grinding Ice of Helcaraxe (Ice-Cold-Spikes in Quenya) are subtle yet major indicators pointing towards the Arctic Ocean. When the Arctic Ocean was less cold in the Years of the Trees & 1st Age. Melkor melting the Ice-Caps supporting the Lamps are further indicators of Ice. Lastly, Ringil in Quenya is Cold-Chill. Which two Seas can you think of are regarded as "cold?" The Arctic (Helcar) and Antarctic Oceans (Ringil).
Simple. The raising of Mount Doom was associated with a tremendous amount of tectonic uplift, raising the seabed of Helcar. This would change the geography and weather significantly. Cuivienen could still be present but utterly unrecognizable from desertification or covered in jungle, or ripped to shreds by uplift.
Definitely 100% No, Gandalf was always on the move, he was the only wizard that didn’t have a home base. However he did love The Shire with all his heart and tried to visit it whenever he could so maybe that could be considered his home :) but would be good to see Darth Gandalf explain it also :)
@@m78088 yeah I mean Elrond may have had a chest for him or something to store stuff but I personally wouldn’t consider that a “home Base” like Orthanc was to Saruman. That’s what’s great about Tolkien’s work though is there’s lots of room for imagination and for the reader to fill in the blanks :)
The elves awaking near the shores of the sea is my head canon. As if the sea drained, that location would be so different, it may as well not exist anymore.
Quick somewhat unrelated question: the icy wastes the Noldor crossed going from Valinor to Middle Earth are called the Helcaraxé, if I'm not mistaken. That's hella similar to Helcar. I know the places themselves are in no way, shape or form related, but what about their names? Any clues as to what their etymologies are?
I suppose Tolkien wasn't in the habit of dropping by Oxford's School of Geology to run some of these ideas past its faculty. They could have given him some good pointers. 😄
I've got a question I've been sitting with for a while, as there isn't much information about it: What is the lifecycle of an orc, how long do they live and how fast do they age?
Hey Darth Gandalf, I was wondering if you had heard of ArdaCraft; they are a group dedicated to recreating Middle-earth as faithfully as possible to the lore in Minecraft, and some of their builds might be useful as backgrounds, as you use when you illustrate your points. There is only so much Tolkien Art on the internet, so the project might give you more material, especially for less depicted locations such as the West-Marches or the Eastemnet. Just something that might be worth considering
I am still siding with Karen Wynn Fonstad on where the Sea of Helcar was. Many channels claim that this is an error because Mordor was mentioned in the History of Middle Earth later on. But no matter how you approach that subject, you will always run into contradictions, especially when it comes to distances. I still believe that her solution is the one with the least friction. And really, I believe Tolkien never gave the Sea of Helcar a thought when he mentioned Mordor in the First Age. Or in general. This is more of a modern fanboy problem.
This links to your video on how China was supposed to be a part of Middle-Earth as part of Tolkien's vision for the Far-East. This where is the 'wereworms' Bilbo mentioned in The Hobbit might have lived nearby.
This would make sense with an animal like the wereworms existing and thriving here: one's headcanon could include the idea that the saline desert left there was inhabited only by animals which could endure such a rapid geological shift. Maybe Helcar disappears and reappears with enough regularity over the ages that the wereworms and fellow animals in this ecology have evolved to live in both inland sea and saline desert.
What you said at the very end is the exact analog I thought of in my head while watching the video. Maybe like the Russians with the Aral Sea, maybe Morgoth and Saurons industrial machine decimated Helcar to the point of just drying up so just massive ecological destruction all at the Gods hands.
This is one of those situations where Tolkien could have woken up one day and decided “Oh yeah I’m not a professional cartographer, the East is probably 5000 miles longer than I listed.” Much like his time scale.
3:00 but are the elves said to have walked around the sea of Rhûn? It already existing doesn't necessarily disprove it being a part of Helcar. Kind of like the adriatic sea is part of the mediteranean, or the baltic sea is an extention of the north sea etc. It could just be a gulf of the sea of helcar.
One can imagined that the Sea of Helcar drying up is like the Aral Sea in today's modern time. Once a large inland sea near the center of Eurasian continent. Now a shadow of its former self. Almost dried up due of Soviet Union in 1960s irrigation plan to divert the waters over cotton farming.
The Sea of Helcar might not be totally gone. Perhaps a small portion of it exist in easternmost. So the bay of Cuiviénen could still be around. The view from the bay doesn't look like a long blue horizon though since the remains of Helcar would be a small lake.
I never learn a thing from your videos but they arent made for me necessarily. The point is even though I know all of this already, I still enjoy watching these videos. That's a testament to the quality.
“Not now Honey Darth Gandalf just dropped a video on the Sea of Helcar”
1:16 Dark Lands is basically Madasgascar on steroids!!
I love your geography related videos
I have a idea for a video, although you explained why Eriador remained depopulated i always had the question why was also most of Rohan and Gondor depopulated? Like Gondor in the end of the Third Age only had 3 cityes. Minas Tirith, Pelargir and Dol Amroth and Minas Tirith only held half the population it could, and most of the Western country side mas mostly underpopulated. And Rohan didnt really expand its population since its founding either.
One thing to mention is how the Ice Age greatly influenced Tolkien's geographical work for Middle-Earth Earth, being a prehistoric national epic for England and (to a lesser extent) a Pan-European epic. Just as how Middle-Earth (especially the Western lands and Rohan) are supposed to be Ice Age Europe, with Doggerland covering all of Britain and Far-Western Europe at the time, the sea of Helcar is eerily similar to the 'Caspian Lake', which was larger than today's 'Caspian Sea' covering large portions of Central Asia and Russia until it gradually dissipated when the Ice Age stopped.
Compelling, I knew of Doggerland but not the expanded Caspian
@@Crafty_Spirit Yea, it's often overlooked as usually Ice Age Europe is focused on the west rather than the centre or east.
I didn’t know that Morgoth created Mt Doom. Thats cool
No no trust me It was some old guy with a key sword
Evil unabated... hot
Karen Wynn Fonstad was a treasure.
She really was. Looking at her maps made it so much easier for me to picture the events of the Quenta Silmarillion.
Hi Darth!
If Professor Tolkien had lived for another hundred years, I wonder how much time he would have spent expanding the world, versus altering the parts of the world he already wrote about. (Or rewriting Galadriel's arc for the hundredth time.)
If Mordor was roughly in the region of the Balkans, then the Sea of Rhun may have been a large lake in what is now around the Polish plain that has since dried out, and Helcar could be the proto-Black Sea before the (still hypothetical) deluge event around 7500 years ago. Or the proto-Black was actually Nurnen and Helcar was the Caspian. Tolkien's distances are often a bit wonky so I wouldn't put much on the notion that Rhun was only 400 miles from Cuivienen.
Of course the actual answer is probably that Helcar was an antique notion that the good professor subsequently forgot all about/abandoned as the world evolved, but its ghost lingered on in early writings that simply never got revised
Thanks for the content cheers
Cheers, farewell, and remember!
Well thats some timing needed a video for lunch and like a wizard this arrives 😉 thanks for all you do brother its appreciated in case you hadnt heard it in a while lol i know the research time isnt negligible
In Theory: The Sea of Helcar & Sea of Ringil both dried out, yet still exist in our world today. Helcar meaning Ice-Cold and the Grinding Ice of Helcaraxe (Ice-Cold-Spikes in Quenya) are subtle yet major indicators pointing towards the Arctic Ocean. When the Arctic Ocean was less cold in the Years of the Trees & 1st Age. Melkor melting the Ice-Caps supporting the Lamps are further indicators of Ice.
Lastly, Ringil in Quenya is Cold-Chill. Which two Seas can you think of are regarded as "cold?" The Arctic (Helcar) and Antarctic Oceans (Ringil).
So maybe the'y were rather glaciers than seas?
Simple. The raising of Mount Doom was associated with a tremendous amount of tectonic uplift, raising the seabed of Helcar. This would change the geography and weather significantly. Cuivienen could still be present but utterly unrecognizable from desertification or covered in jungle, or ripped to shreds by uplift.
Idea for video, does Gandalf had "house" somewhere in middle earth?
Definitely 100% No, Gandalf was always on the move, he was the only wizard that didn’t have a home base. However he did love The Shire with all his heart and tried to visit it whenever he could so maybe that could be considered his home :) but would be good to see Darth Gandalf explain it also :)
@superslayerguy he need to have some sort of house, where he keep some valubele items, probaby in Rivendel
@@m78088 yeah I mean Elrond may have had a chest for him or something to store stuff but I personally wouldn’t consider that a “home Base” like Orthanc was to Saruman. That’s what’s great about Tolkien’s work though is there’s lots of room for imagination and for the reader to fill in the blanks :)
Almost certainly not. He was known as the Gray Pilgrim, a wanderer, for a reason.
I'd love to see you talk about Tolkien's languages.
The elves awaking near the shores of the sea is my head canon. As if the sea drained, that location would be so different, it may as well not exist anymore.
I, too, love your geography videos! I've been wondering how big are the Orocarni, and how much smaller are the Blue Mountains than they used to be?
Quick somewhat unrelated question: the icy wastes the Noldor crossed going from Valinor to Middle Earth are called the Helcaraxé, if I'm not mistaken. That's hella similar to Helcar. I know the places themselves are in no way, shape or form related, but what about their names? Any clues as to what their etymologies are?
Helcaraxe means grinding ice and I guess Helcar refers to ice then
I suppose Tolkien wasn't in the habit of dropping by Oxford's School of Geology to run some of these ideas past its faculty. They could have given him some good pointers. 😄
I've got a question I've been sitting with for a while, as there isn't much information about it:
What is the lifecycle of an orc, how long do they live and how fast do they age?
Hey Darth Gandalf,
I was wondering if you had heard of ArdaCraft; they are a group dedicated to recreating Middle-earth as faithfully as possible to the lore in Minecraft, and some of their builds might be useful as backgrounds, as you use when you illustrate your points. There is only so much Tolkien Art on the internet, so the project might give you more material, especially for less depicted locations such as the West-Marches or the Eastemnet. Just something that might be worth considering
That's nifty! What's the map scale?
@General12th 58:1, but the mountains are scaled slightly higher, as well as the buildings of course
1:58 I mean lol
Ooooo. Real life sea of Helcar is super sad
I am still siding with Karen Wynn Fonstad on where the Sea of Helcar was.
Many channels claim that this is an error because Mordor was mentioned in the History of Middle Earth later on. But no matter how you approach that subject, you will always run into contradictions, especially when it comes to distances.
I still believe that her solution is the one with the least friction.
And really, I believe Tolkien never gave the Sea of Helcar a thought when he mentioned Mordor in the First Age. Or in general.
This is more of a modern fanboy problem.
Fanboy problem 😂
@@Crafty_Spirit Not on the same level as the Balrog wings, but still...
This links to your video on how China was supposed to be a part of Middle-Earth as part of Tolkien's vision for the Far-East. This where is the 'wereworms' Bilbo mentioned in The Hobbit might have lived nearby.
They were watcchers in the waters of Helcar
This would make sense with an animal like the wereworms existing and thriving here: one's headcanon could include the idea that the saline desert left there was inhabited only by animals which could endure such a rapid geological shift. Maybe Helcar disappears and reappears with enough regularity over the ages that the wereworms and fellow animals in this ecology have evolved to live in both inland sea and saline desert.
isn't it a cognate of the Mediterranean Sea?
Sounds plausible
Valar warming.
Merry Christmas 🎄🎄🎄😇😇😇 God bless you and your work sir 😇🙏💙
What you said at the very end is the exact analog I thought of in my head while watching the video. Maybe like the Russians with the Aral Sea, maybe Morgoth and Saurons industrial machine decimated Helcar to the point of just drying up so just massive ecological destruction all at the Gods hands.