It feels like a bit of an anomaly. A town that survived the Fall of Arnor, but then we know pretty much nothing about it until it was eventually abandoned.
@@DarthGandalfYT I like to think of them as of greek colonies in Taurida (Crimea). Useful and profitable if they are connected to a functioning hinterland (Greek cities in mainland Hellas). Once alone, they usually don't survive for long when there are poweful, wild and agresivně neighbors around. (Scythians, Goths, Huns etc. around the greek colonies, Dunlendings and orcs/goblins around Tharbad.
@@DarthGandalfYT The Shire also survived the fall of Arnor and almost nobody knew about it until the events of the Hobbit and the LotR :). It seems that Gondorians knew something about Tharbad, at least Boromir knew its name.
@@DarthGandalfYT I would think the names of the places would give more clues, and since Dunland LOOKS empty but isn't, and you wouldn't know from the maps that Eriador is heavily populated by orcs and trolls (and has a large number of villages which trolls eat without being worried they would wipe out their human food supply: it also has many ruined "castles" with an "evil look" which are still inhabited, a significant number of Dunedain "heroes" who are busy fighting the Enemy and are thus "rare in these parts," and a significant number of "warriors" who are "always fighting each other or in distant lands"), I would think Minhiriath would be infested with Dunlendings and Men of Darkness, it is just they don't count because they live in the wilderness.
I have a minor question on a niche topic, but since the subscrivers of this channel seem to enjoy that, there it is. What does it mean that the last Dunedain of Cardolan took refuge in the Barrowdowns? Did they have a fortified settlement nearby? Did the live in small camps in the area? Or did they actually live inside the barrows alongside their deads (creepy)?
There were fortresses in the Barrow Downs (as a geografic region, probably not ontop the barrows themselves), Tom Bombadil mentioned "fortresses on the heights" while describing the history of the region and said that later "towers fell, fortresses were burned".
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ So geographically these fortresses would have been located at the South Downs in Cardolan? Bombadil could also have meant the Weather Hills which were in fact covered with fortresses and watchtowers?
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border. (Sorry for double answer, RUclips is glitching and I am not sure if my first answer was sent.)
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
Another awesome (and original) topic & a great video When I first read the books, I remember staring at the map and wondering what goes on/used to go on on those swathes of seemingly empty land
I like to imagine that some of the first age Easterlings stopped either on their journey to Beleriand or on the way back through Minhirriath and settled in the flatlands along the Haladin folks there
It never cease to amaze me at the details Tolkien put into even small areas of his legendarium. Thank you for continuing to highlight and bring to life the world of middle earth.
@@genovayork2468 It reminds me of the forests and fields that fill every English county: the counties are filled with people but forests and fields in rural areas make them look empty unless you are in an urban or suburban area (like the settlements of the Shire).
Thank you for this insightful lore! I think yours *@Darth* *Gandalf* are the only among LOTR channels that goes around in scrunching little bits of knowledge towards obscured places of Middle-earth Third Age map. Most channels usually talk long but not directly to the subject in the first place. This is why I became fascinated from looking the map and imagined those places not thoroughly conversed in LOTR and The Hobbit. *hantanyë* *lyen*
I do wonder how Aragorn went about encouraging re-settlement of the lands of Arnor. I guess we get a hint of a policy from Aragorn when he grants additional lands to the Shire. If he does a similar thing to Bree-land, Dunlendings and any of the other pre-existing scattered settlements then that would encourage the current people to expand. Then probably building a few forts in the area for Gondorian troops to respond to any security issues and repairing the Greenway and the bridge over the Greyflood at Tharbad. At that point re-colonising Tharbad can start. Also clearing out the Barrow-downs might be a good move.
It is possible many of the people fled to other countries, fled into the wilderness like the Dunedain, or were orcs and trolls enslaved by Aragorn: I would think the best explanation is a combination of all three.
@@rikhuravidansker There are zero cases of good people using slave labor in Tolkien's universe. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Corsairs of Umbar and fallen Numenoreans used slaves, but slavery among elves, dwarves, Dunedain or Rohirrim is never mentioned. So definitely no enslaved orcs.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ There are peasants and poor people in Tolkien's world, and slavery was common in the real world: we are not talking about racially-based slavery or enslavement of Christians in the Muslim slave trade or by Asian pirates, we are talking about servants of the Enemy being enslaved. Tolkien's world appears to be proto-feudalist (i.e. Merrie England and the Anglo-Saxons), so there would be plenty of thralls, serfs, latifundia, and tenant farmers, and thralls and serfs can get manumission.
@@rikhuravidansker That's all true for the real world, but Tolkien's word is fantasy. As far as I know serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
@@rikhuravidansker That's all true for the real world, but Tolkien's word is fantasy. As far as I know serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
It never made much sense to me about the big gap between the Numenorian colonies. When Gondor and Arnor were founded the westernmost part of Gondor was what would become Dol Amroth and the most southern part of Arnor was Tharbad but between the two of them there was like a thousand miles of coast with no Numenorian settlers even though they made it as far inland to Lake Evendim in Eraidor and Isengard in Gondor. For a naval power you would expect that those places would be settled long before the settlers would reach those inland places. When I made this post I didn't expect twenty comments of various reasons, theories and discussions about my statement so thank you for that. However I also want to add another theory I have thought of, perhaps the faithful were simply not allowed to settle in those lands as to found a colony in the real world you usually need the permission of the government/monarch and the King's men monarchs may have forbidden the faithful. This may also explain why so many faithful settled inland, as their population grew but weren't allowed to move along the coast they instead moved inland.
Well the main reason was the politcs of Númenor, there were long gaps betwen settlements, from Tar Aldarion to Tar-Atanamir was a thousand years. From the first settlements to permanent fortresses of pelagir and Umbar.
@@jcook693 There are many, but they are very specific and examples are not usually found in Europe. I will give examples of the Medieval Ly Kingdom of North Vietnam and Champa of South Vietnam. There were three provinces between the two societies, North-South Quảng Binh and North Quảng Trị. These three provinces were rich in forest resources, but they were still unexplored wild lands, and to this day they are among the least industrialized and urbanized areas in Vietnam. The Ly Kingdom and Champa often fought wars by sailing across these provinces into enemy territory and never establishing any ports. What I mean is that it was not only the desert terrain that prevented the establishment of communities, even the lush green areas had problems that made the great powers choose to overlook these areas because the technology and labor resources were not enough to explore.
Gondor probably didn't have a large enough population to rebuild their own cities (e.g Osgiliath) while also colonizing the northwest. Aragorn ruled for a very long time (122 years), which would have ideally seen population growth by the latter part of his kingship. But, as noted in the video, any settlers from Gondor would have likely sought out the heartland of old Arnor first. But what of the Dunlendings? Rather than get into fights with Rohan, why not put some distance between them and settle in Minhiriath? If they were sufficiently established, Aragorn would have likely accepted their claim to the land in return for non-aggression.
I prefer the lore of Tolkien's world before the War of the Ring. The quest of the Ringbearer is great but the epic history of lands & kingdoms is so compelling. A whole backstory stretching from the most primitive folk of Haleth right the way through to high majestic centuries whose ruins the Ringbearer so carefully crept through.
Soil erosion and such I guess... quite like with logging/land clearance IRL, once the ecosystem is disturbed it might not be able to recover to its previous state quickly, or at all if the damage is severe enough (e.g. Mesopotamia, Rapa Nui etc.)
I actually thought they hadn't grown back at all, but there's a line in the Unfinished Tales that says the woodlands had recovered somewhat by the end of the Third Age.
@@DarthGandalfYT The "empty areas" on the map of Middle-Earth don't mean that there are no trees at all - there definitely are trees and woodlands in the Vales of Anduin, in Ithilien and so on. Forests that are depicted on the map are especially dense and old forests, not just regular woodland.
When I saw the video I realized I knew the reason, but I couldn't put my finger on it: reading your comment I realized it was because orcs destroy forests and warred with the Ents, which means the forests didn't grow back because the orcs took over Minhiriath farmland (and no doubt allowed the original inhabitants in, but only as farmers and not forest-dwellers). In a comment on a previous video, I stated the orcs and trolls must have taken over Eriador farmland thus resulting in it being a "noman's land" but filled with the peoples of Wilderland: Wargs, Hillmen, Dunlendings, orcs, Uruk-hai, and trolls (with plenty of dwarves, farmers, merchants, and repairmen, on the roads). The trolls would have been the same as giants (as evidenced by "Ettinsmoor").
@@DarthGandalfYT Have you done an economy video on Middle-Earth? I forgot, in any case in my comments on your videos I have explained how the political economy (i.e. a slave society based on enslaved orcs and trolls), could work.
Hi Darth! I'm suddenly curious; did the Helcaraxë still exist into the Second or Third Ages? When Eru rounded the world, did it lead somewhere new and different now that Valinor was out of the picture?
I always assumed it fell into the seas with Beleriand. As something akin to the Bearing straight, without the land to link it, it would just be ice like the Arctic Ocean.
@General12th I'm not Darth but I can answer yours question since I read some things from *The* *Silmarillion.* The sinking of Beleriand after the War of Wrath that lasted 42 years was catastrophic. The sheer destruction also affected the coastal areas west of Middle-earth. As Beleriand sink, Helcaraxë collapses as well. Arda (name of the world) were flat throughout the First and Second Age. The world became round or spherical at the beginning of the Third Age. From the map of Middle-earth, unto the Second and Third Age. There were no indication of Helcaraxë at the upper northwest existing since it was destroyed along Beleriand. Only a land called Lossoth sharing borders north of Eriador. Eastward from Lossoth and beyond north is Forodwaith (otherwise called Northern Waste). A cold barren landscape inhabited by foul beings such as dragons. They found refuge on this desolated land after escaping Beleriand sunk unto the sea.
About the fortresses at Barrow Downs: As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
Is there anything, at all, which explains how Beleriand actually sunk under the waves? I never could imagine the in world mechanics of this. If anyone can research this, I bet you can!
@@genovayork2468 Nah. Beleriand sunk under the weight of the powers unleashed by the Valars, Maiars, Balrogs, dragons, and Morgoth. None of the Elves, Men, Dwarves, and others beings are comparable to the big hitters that can bring destruction of immense ferocity. The War of Wrath lasted 42 years. With so much pressure being put up by big players that can shape the landscape. The land eventually collapsed from the great dragon Ancalagon the Black falls that broke the two peaks of Thangorodrim of Angband. This dragon were the greatest and largest of all the dark lord has ever bred. Estimated the diameter and size may encompassed two mountains. Eru has nothing to do of the western continent sinking. He rarely intervenes towards the making and drama of the world and his children. The only time he did with his authority is burying the King's Men of Numenor who broke the Ban via sailing and setting foot on Valinor. After that he break and bended the world from flat to round. Thus uplifting and removing the Undying Land from the world. Only the Elves from Middle-earth knows the path to the sacred realm as they're allowed a passageway when they are feeling to go home.
Minhiriath was part of Arnor, so Gondor had nothing to do there... But if you meant Enedhwaith, then you are right. Gondor neglected it and later in Third Age gondorians abandoned Enedhwaith and their border moved to line of Angrenost-Aglarond...
I"d watch an april fools video that was just this one but titled Enedwaith PS: Enedwaith had some rohan presence on the East or am I confused by countless Battle for middle earth playthroughs?
There was Westmarch between Isen and Adorn, that was officially part of Rohan (although it seems that it sided with Saruman and Dunendings during the war). But technically it wasn't part of Enedwaith, since Enedwaith is a region between Isen and Gwathlo, and Westmarch is situated on the other side of Isen.
To the surrounding villages, I think. Probably many refugees we se n Bree in the first book and Saruman's ruffians from the third book came from those villages near Tharbad.
Answer to @rikhuravidansker about slavery in the Middle-Earth: That's true that slaves, thralls and serves existed in the real world in Anglo-Saxon England and other Early Medieval societies, but Tolkien's world is fantasy. As far as I know terms like serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
Middle Earth having basically post apocalyptic population levels is the one of the weaker parts of Tolkien’s world building. Especially as he would have been very well aware of the population and prosperity of medieval Europe. I’ve always mentally squared this by assuming that the maps are extremely simplified sketches, akin to a map of Europe with just capital cities. And middle earth is actually full of villages, towns and cities at medieval levels of density, but Tolkien did not personally find that part of the mythos interesting, so didn’t elaborate. Otherwise we have a strange scenario where the western peoples are at best stagnant vs the seemingly more dynamic and prosperous shadow influenced peoples.
I think you are right to some extent - "empty" lands were actually settled by scattered populations, living in small villages, with maybe a small town (like Bree) or a hillfort here and there. But I do not think it is reasonable to assume that there were entire cities not shown on the map. Middle-Earth doesn't seem "High Medieval" to me - it looks more similar to Dark Age or even Iron Age Europe, with a much smaller and less urbanized population. Even many Gondorians from the southern fiefs are described by Tolkien as semi-barbarian hillmen, closer to Post-Roman Britons or ancient Samnites than to urban militias or mercenary companies of High Middle Ages.
When we see Middle Earth in the Third Age, it’s at the end of a long story, all of its ancient glory relegated to the vanished pasts with the majesty of the elder days having long faded. It’s not meant to be a vibrant High Medieval inspired setting, things are meant to feel sort of bleak and grave by the time we get to the point in history where the story takes place. As the commenter above me said, the vibe of the setting pulls more from the Fall of Rome / Dark Ages period than it does the Middle Ages proper.
Stop spreading the disinformation, Minhiriath wasn't empty :) There was a populous, although barbarious fisher-folk living between the mouths of Isen and Gwathlo. That's mostly in Enedwaith, but I doubt that no fishermen ever crossed Gwathlo to settle on its northern shores. There were secretive hunters in the woodlands of Minhiriath - probably descendants of the peope of Eryn Vorn, but as the woodlands recovered, they expanded from the peninsula. There still were people of Tharbad - while the city itself was deserted after the flood, the inhabitants of the city had to go somewhere. so surrounding villages probably survived. I believe, refugees we see in Bree and Saruman's ruffians were descendamts of that population. There also were Rangers, who had a camp at Sarn Ford. It is also said by Frodo, that "there are some Men about" and that hobbits "down in the Southfarthing ... have had trouble with Big People". If Minhiriath was empty, from where did those men came? I think Minhiriath was as empty as Rhovannion or other areas where were no cities or polities, but still were scattered villages, hamlets and farmsteas.
The way to keep great forests from regrowing on their old ground after a fire is to graze the new-made moorland with sheep or goats or cattle (typically sheep). Away from the coasts and rivers, Minhiriath's population (and Enedwaith's, west of the North-South Road) likely consisted of small bands of pastoralist herdsmen with large flocks of sheep.
@@zimmerwald1915 I think shepherd pastoralists were a large part of Minhiriath and Cardolan population during late Second Age and early Third Age (and thus forests destroyed in the middle of Second Age didn't recover during such a long period of time), but they suffered greatly during Angmar wars, the Great Plague and the Long Winter, and during the events of the LotR there might be only small remnants of that population (at least they aren't specifically mentioned anywhere in our sources). But after that decline of pastoralists woodland begun to recover during late Third Age and hunters from Eryn Vorn started to expand their territory.
I find it hard to buy the whole "empty land" claim. Plagues can devaste. To put it into perspective, the plague that ravaged the first wave of settlers on Greenland took up half of one of those Greenland-Americas Norse books, it was that important. Only a few lines was given to meeting, trade and conflict with the american natives, which is the modern interest. The vikings didn't care that much. The second point of most interest, counting by words used, was to exploring the land. The Greenland population was whiped out because it was dependent on outside resources, it was extremely isolated, and the region got gradually so cold they couldn't sustain themselves. Plague had a massive impact on their lives, however. Can you think of one case where a plague whiped out every single person left standing? I can't, but I can count people in history that was driven to extinction by war or war-like situations. Genocide of other people is nothing new, but it happened at smaller scale than what we talk about. Usually one settlement at a time. Millions of Christians were wiped in declining years of the Ottoman empire, to the point you can hardly find Christians there anymore. There used to be millions of Christians in Iraq 20 years ago. After the sectarian infighting, there's hardly anyone there. Ancient people could be driven to extinction, or near extinction from other tribes. However, if a proto-state or kingdom like Cardolan could manifest in that area, it's likely that some petty king would hold (nominal) power using the old systems. Kinda like the Steward held power in Gondor. Kinda like Christians or Muslims would incorporate old buildings or traditions of faith into their own. How the Seljuks of Rum (Rome) or Tzar (Caesar) was incorporated to legitimacy, when there's no actual link. The infrastructure and traditions left over were usually remembered, because it was necessary and useful. At least in theory enough for it to spring up again in the same geographical area, centuries later. I think I'd buy the "empty land" claim if the land became completely infertile or orcs really went to town.
I do not think the land in Eriador was completely empty - there most likely were small scattered settlements of farmers, pastoralists, fishermen and hunter-gatherers. Due to hardships (plagues, famines, orc raids and so on), population grew very slowly if at all. There were no new large polities, to some extent because population wasn't large enough to support them, but also because nobody really tried to establish such a polity. Arnor and Cardolan were Numenorean kingdoms, established and ruled by Numenorean elite. Local non-Numenorean populations weren't affected by those polities that much except for paying some taxes and providing auxiliary troops. It seems that Northern Numenoreans didn't try to culturally or physically assimilate local non-Numenorean populations at all, and there was no unifying Arnorian or Cardolanian identity. (It seems that in Gondor such Gondorian identity appeared pretty late, maybe after the Kin-strife or even during the reign of the Stewards). So when Dunedain (Numenoreans) of Cardolan were mostly wiped out due to wars and plagues, and those few who survived either joined their relatives in Arthedain or were assimilated by much more numerous non-Numenoreans, there remained no local tradition of statehood (maybe with the exception of Tharbad, which probably continue to function as a city-state for a long time).
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ How do you know you're not taking the Lore a step too far into the domain of facts of the matter? There's the people of Dorwinion. Were they a big kingdom? A small kingdom? A city state? A small collection farmers? Since they're not relevant, that information isn't available. We can't say. They sold wine to Thranduil's realm. How do we know? Because that specific point was relevant. This is my point. Just because we're described something or not described something -- doesn't mean that there wasn't something more. The honest answer to what was Dorwinion is that I don't know. Was there some petty kingdom in the ass end of nowhere that played no part in our story? Did the Eotheoden Northmen of northern Anduin hold a minor Chiefdom at this point? Did some Hobbits linger along the Anduin still? No idea. If we take the written word as a complete encyclopedia, then it dawns on us how the map lights up where the fellowship walks. Did the Blue Wizard succeed in the far east, beyond Khand? Palms of my hand face the sky in search of meaning, because I don't know. Was there an empire there? More scattered farmers and hunter gatherers? I can't say for certain. This story is told through the eyes of very small folk who see Bree as the biggest thing ever, with a slight Numenoreon bias. High folk, such as the King of Rohan who have no idea Hobbits exist. If it's talked about you can bet your bottom dime it will be relevant some other part of the story. Tolkien won't talk about the "Chiefdom of Dol Vorn and how they were related to the former ancient city of Londaer", if there's not going to be a link to something else. Was there something in Southern Minhiriath? No idea. Did the story take us there? Nope. Coincidence? Hmmm.. In "Flight to the Ford" We're told: "As they climb into the hills, they begin to see ruins of walls and towers." Just because they happened to walk past it, we're told: "Strider says that these are the ruins of ancient Mannish settlements which once belonged to the evil kingdom of Angmar; its shadow still lies here." What does that mean? Literally, they came across an unknown set of abandoned structures of some unknown settlements, where "shadow still lies". Did they brush up against a minor abandoned border fortifications of a curret Rhaudar King who holds power because he claim to have Numenoreon blood, or did they walk through the "capital" of these people? Just like Dorwinion, I have no idea. Not particularly relevant. My axiom: After turning from the Ettenmorse, the terrain is difficult to climb. This reminds me of when I go off/on trails that explicitly avoid civilization, untouched by the will of man. It seems they're intentionally trying to stay away from people. As if Aragorn is guiding them to stay hidden and unseen, as opposed to the clumsy Hobbits who sought it out in Bree. For there to only be scattered farmers and the like on such a scale is like going back an Era to the Gravettians. A time when Europe had 3000-20 000 people, depending on how rough the climate was. The first people to make ceramic. Back when they made those famous Venus statues. Semi hunter gathers, who could roam 200 km to hunt. That's such a long time. 30 000 to 10 000 years ago. Mail armour is something that popped up bit more than 2000 years ago.
@@willek1335 If there were some significant polities in Eriador, then there would be problems for Aragorn to establish his Reunited Kingdom, I think. It is said that ambassadors from Dunland came to Aragorn after his coronation, so it seems that Dunland was a polity (a confederation of chiefdoms, perhaps). Erebor and Dale also sent ambassadors. But there are zero mentions of any significant polities in Minhiriath during the events of the LotR. I agree that if something isn't mentioned it doesn't mean that it didn't existed at all. Dorwinion is a good example - we know that it existed, its approximate location and that there were great gardens and vineyards, but we know almost nothing else about it. But Dorwinion is situated almost on the edge of the map, while Minhiriath is way closer to the center of it. Large and powerful polities tend to warp socio-political fabric around them, creating a net of alliances, trade routes, vassal states and so on, and there are no traces of that. So I think that it is save to say that during the events of the LotR there were no major polities in Minhiriath. That, of course, doesn't mean that there weren't many small polities, tribes, townsteads and so on. And there might be larger polities in the past - Third Age is long and during the thousand years after the fall of Arnor a lot could happen.
Disappointed the Saralain and other canon adjacent bits of lore never got mentioned. I was really hoping this channel would lead the charge in introducing the world to canon adjacent lore. There's literally nobody else doing it.
@@tiltskillet7085wow I can't believe I missed that and I must have zoned out right at the end. Still though I was hoping for more but I'll take what I can get.
Looking at the map, if the Fellowship had left immediately after the Council, they could have taken boats south from Rivendell down the Bruinen and Gwathld rivers past Lond Daer, and followed the coast all the way to Belfalas, landing in Southern Gondor. This would have avoided Caradhras and Moria. Of course, that would have led to a completely different story.
Boats that could navigate the Bruinen river were probably unsuited for seafaring. And there were people along the Gwathlo river (including Saruman's agents), so it wasn't a very good plan considering the secrecy of the missiom.
I'd question the first assumption, but I suspect you're right on the second. Would have been helpful if Tolkien had included a scene where Frodo and Gandalf weighed alternatives like these.
@@commandosolo1266 There is a scene where Boromir suggested to go south acrossIsen and the White Mountains into Anfalas, to avoid going through Moria or through the Gap of Rohan. Gandalf replied that such a journey would be too long and the lands there are "empty and harbourless", but not safe, since "the watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them".
I wonder how safe or even navigable the Bruinen and upper Glathlo would be, just in terms of boating in winter. More so even considering the composition of the Fellowship, although if the river route was viable at all, I'd think they could have gotten some experts on loan from Rivendell for at least some portion of it. Kind of academic though, considering the issues that АнтонОрлов-я1ъ brings up. Alternately they could have gone to Lindon and taken a proper ship from there. But a path back westward was dismissed at the Council as too predictable and dangerous. And even if that was successful, a winter voyage around the coast to Gondor with the Ring suggests plenty of its own dangers, both during it and after.
Book or film, Ahton? I wonder if Gandalf would have taken the Bruinen southwest if he'd known a Balrog was hiding in Moria? I've always given Elrond the side-eye for letting the dwarves so near him go and die for... :: checks the LOTR wiki :: TWENTY FIVE YEARS without checking in with 'em?! The big issue with the Fellowship's travels was always stealth and secrecy. Had they traveled within some large army or naval fleet, the movements of that army would have drawn attention. But if they were willing to travel by canoe down the Anduin, surely canoeing down the Bruinen would have presented no greater danger.
Tolkien messed up with this one. Minhiriath should have been a kingdom by the end of the third age with the descendants of the men of Arnor who weren't Dunedain. This kingdom would provide food to the dwarves of the blue mountains. It would also serve as a buffer zone protecting the hobbits and Breelanders from the Dunlending tribes to the south, while the rangers defend Eriador from the North and East. But that's just my fan fiction. It always bothered me that Eriador is so uninhabited
This was always dumbest, most idiotic part of Tolkien's worlbuilding. The comical time scales. Imagine Black Plague in 1300s somehow completely depopulates France and German and today, 650 years later, both regions are completely empty because no one of dozen plus surrounding countries gives a sh*t about vast expanse of prime free land. Land that after fall of Witch King was entirely peaceful so if not surrounding countries then even the remnants of people who lived there should repopulate it in 1/3 of the time entirely on their own due to lack of danger. Wut?
It wasn’t really entirely peaceful though, the Orcs of the misty mountains and the trolls coming down from the Ettenmoors along with the occasional wraiths and other hellish beasts here and there created a very hostile environment in the region outside of the areas that the rangers were actively protecting like the Shire or Bree and the Elven realms in Eriador were not at all in a position to expand their territory due to their ever dwindling population though I’ll agree with you that there should be more populated areas especially bordering Dunland
And who has the means of setteling it? The Dúnedians became a micro-group of frontiersmen employed in the fight against trolls, Dunlending migrated to the south and east towards Rohan, the Drúnedians inhabited their homeland as in previous centuries (and at the same time discouraged foreign settlement), Gondor and the other free countries had other places to expand or were threatened with destruction, etc. And it was not that peacafull. Especially in the east it was teeming with trolls and orcs who even attacked the Shire and if it weren't for the Dúnadians, who knows how much worse it would have been. Not everything there was also a nice farmland. You jave cold north, dangerous and mountainous east, deep forests and Barrow downs, which are not really welcoming for new population.
Also, the scale of destruction was far larger. There have been centuries of brutal fighting and instability even after the end of the great war and countless genocides. The entire population of Angmar, Rhudaur, Cardolan,... was killed/expelled and the rest of the region wasn't much better off. Also Germany lost like 20-25% of its population, Eriador, etc. like 90-95% and experienced complete colaps of society, while none of the neighbouring countries was in the position to fill that place. I mean what do you except? That a single surviving city (Bree) can just repopulate area of the size of western Europe?
And the population did increased. Hobbits expanded, Bree folks as well and some Middlemen also made comeback around coast. Now after a 1000 years their extend should've been larger but given the difficulties they faced and the apocaliptic destruction of their societies and populations they went through, it isn't that terribly off as it would seem at first glance. Also calm down. You act as if Tolkien run you over and then left. It is only a book and despite this flaw, it's still awsome.
Yeah, I hear - on a relative scale - that there's dozens of "better" world building authors. I bet you know of a few... I bet you can name at least ten. But give us the top five best world-building authors??
Tharbad is one of the Middle-earth locations I always enjoy hearing about, even thought I'm not entirely certain why.
It has a neat name
It feels like a bit of an anomaly. A town that survived the Fall of Arnor, but then we know pretty much nothing about it until it was eventually abandoned.
@@DarthGandalfYT I like to think of them as of greek colonies in Taurida (Crimea). Useful and profitable if they are connected to a functioning hinterland (Greek cities in mainland Hellas). Once alone, they usually don't survive for long when there are poweful, wild and agresivně neighbors around. (Scythians, Goths, Huns etc. around the greek colonies, Dunlendings and orcs/goblins around Tharbad.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yes, and such a strange place that exists on the borders of so many regions.
@@DarthGandalfYT The Shire also survived the fall of Arnor and almost nobody knew about it until the events of the Hobbit and the LotR :).
It seems that Gondorians knew something about Tharbad, at least Boromir knew its name.
I can't wait to see the video on Enedhwaith!
Haha, I was probably being unfair to Enedwaith when I said it's the same as Minhiriath. There's a little bit more that went on there.
@@DarthGandalfYT I would think the names of the places would give more clues, and since Dunland LOOKS empty but isn't, and you wouldn't know from the maps that Eriador is heavily populated by orcs and trolls (and has a large number of villages which trolls eat without being worried they would wipe out their human food supply: it also has many ruined "castles" with an "evil look" which are still inhabited, a significant number of Dunedain "heroes" who are busy fighting the Enemy and are thus "rare in these parts," and a significant number of "warriors" who are "always fighting each other or in distant lands"), I would think Minhiriath would be infested with Dunlendings and Men of Darkness, it is just they don't count because they live in the wilderness.
Darth Gandalf never fails to drop a masterpiece🔥
I have a minor question on a niche topic, but since the subscrivers of this channel seem to enjoy that, there it is. What does it mean that the last Dunedain of Cardolan took refuge in the Barrowdowns? Did they have a fortified settlement nearby? Did the live in small camps in the area? Or did they actually live inside the barrows alongside their deads (creepy)?
There were fortresses in the Barrow Downs (as a geografic region, probably not ontop the barrows themselves), Tom Bombadil mentioned "fortresses on the heights" while describing the history of the region and said that later "towers fell, fortresses were burned".
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ So geographically these fortresses would have been located at the South Downs in Cardolan? Bombadil could also have meant the Weather Hills which were in fact covered with fortresses and watchtowers?
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers.
Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers.
Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
(Sorry for double answer, RUclips is glitching and I am not sure if my first answer was sent.)
@@NastyCupid As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
Another awesome (and original) topic & a great video
When I first read the books, I remember staring at the map and wondering what goes on/used to go on on those swathes of seemingly empty land
I like to imagine that some of the first age Easterlings stopped either on their journey to Beleriand or on the way back through Minhirriath and settled in the flatlands along the Haladin folks there
It never cease to amaze me at the details Tolkien put into even small areas of his legendarium. Thank you for continuing to highlight and bring to life the world of middle earth.
It's badly thought.
@@genovayork2468 It reminds me of the forests and fields that fill every English county: the counties are filled with people but forests and fields in rural areas make them look empty unless you are in an urban or suburban area (like the settlements of the Shire).
Thank you for this insightful lore!
I think yours *@Darth* *Gandalf* are the only among LOTR channels that goes around in scrunching little bits of knowledge towards obscured places of Middle-earth Third Age map. Most channels usually talk long but not directly to the subject in the first place. This is why I became fascinated from looking the map and imagined those places not thoroughly conversed in LOTR and The Hobbit.
*hantanyë* *lyen*
I do wonder how Aragorn went about encouraging re-settlement of the lands of Arnor. I guess we get a hint of a policy from Aragorn when he grants additional lands to the Shire. If he does a similar thing to Bree-land, Dunlendings and any of the other pre-existing scattered settlements then that would encourage the current people to expand.
Then probably building a few forts in the area for Gondorian troops to respond to any security issues and repairing the Greenway and the bridge over the Greyflood at Tharbad. At that point re-colonising Tharbad can start.
Also clearing out the Barrow-downs might be a good move.
It is possible many of the people fled to other countries, fled into the wilderness like the Dunedain, or were orcs and trolls enslaved by Aragorn: I would think the best explanation is a combination of all three.
@@rikhuravidansker There are zero cases of good people using slave labor in Tolkien's universe. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Corsairs of Umbar and fallen Numenoreans used slaves, but slavery among elves, dwarves, Dunedain or Rohirrim is never mentioned. So definitely no enslaved orcs.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ There are peasants and poor people in Tolkien's world, and slavery was common in the real world: we are not talking about racially-based slavery or enslavement of Christians in the Muslim slave trade or by Asian pirates, we are talking about servants of the Enemy being enslaved. Tolkien's world appears to be proto-feudalist (i.e. Merrie England and the Anglo-Saxons), so there would be plenty of thralls, serfs, latifundia, and tenant farmers, and thralls and serfs can get manumission.
@@rikhuravidansker That's all true for the real world, but Tolkien's word is fantasy. As far as I know serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
@@rikhuravidansker That's all true for the real world, but Tolkien's word is fantasy. As far as I know serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
It never made much sense to me about the big gap between the Numenorian colonies. When Gondor and Arnor were founded the westernmost part of Gondor was what would become Dol Amroth and the most southern part of Arnor was Tharbad but between the two of them there was like a thousand miles of coast with no Numenorian settlers even though they made it as far inland to Lake Evendim in Eraidor and Isengard in Gondor. For a naval power you would expect that those places would be settled long before the settlers would reach those inland places.
When I made this post I didn't expect twenty comments of various reasons, theories and discussions about my statement so thank you for that.
However I also want to add another theory I have thought of, perhaps the faithful were simply not allowed to settle in those lands as to found a colony in the real world you usually need the permission of the government/monarch and the King's men monarchs may have forbidden the faithful. This may also explain why so many faithful settled inland, as their population grew but weren't allowed to move along the coast they instead moved inland.
Is there no historical instance of crazy big gaps in settlements?
@@jcook693 outside of deserts, no.
Well the main reason was the politcs of Númenor, there were long gaps betwen settlements, from Tar Aldarion to Tar-Atanamir was a thousand years. From the first settlements to permanent fortresses of pelagir and Umbar.
Tbh so many things make zero sense and could have been thought through better realistically
@@jcook693 There are many, but they are very specific and examples are not usually found in Europe. I will give examples of the Medieval Ly Kingdom of North Vietnam and Champa of South Vietnam.
There were three provinces between the two societies, North-South Quảng Binh and North Quảng Trị. These three provinces were rich in forest resources, but they were still unexplored wild lands, and to this day they are among the least industrialized and urbanized areas in Vietnam.
The Ly Kingdom and Champa often fought wars by sailing across these provinces into enemy territory and never establishing any ports.
What I mean is that it was not only the desert terrain that prevented the establishment of communities, even the lush green areas had problems that made the great powers choose to overlook these areas because the technology and labor resources were not enough to explore.
Gondor probably didn't have a large enough population to rebuild their own cities (e.g Osgiliath) while also colonizing the northwest. Aragorn ruled for a very long time (122 years), which would have ideally seen population growth by the latter part of his kingship. But, as noted in the video, any settlers from Gondor would have likely sought out the heartland of old Arnor first. But what of the Dunlendings? Rather than get into fights with Rohan, why not put some distance between them and settle in Minhiriath? If they were sufficiently established, Aragorn would have likely accepted their claim to the land in return for non-aggression.
I prefer the lore of Tolkien's world before the War of the Ring. The quest of the Ringbearer is great but the epic history of lands & kingdoms is so compelling. A whole backstory stretching from the most primitive folk of Haleth right the way through to high majestic centuries whose ruins the Ringbearer so carefully crept through.
Empty land in Middle-Earth? Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?
i always thought that over the time between the second and third age those forests would have grown back
Soil erosion and such I guess... quite like with logging/land clearance IRL, once the ecosystem is disturbed it might not be able to recover to its previous state quickly, or at all if the damage is severe enough (e.g. Mesopotamia, Rapa Nui etc.)
I actually thought they hadn't grown back at all, but there's a line in the Unfinished Tales that says the woodlands had recovered somewhat by the end of the Third Age.
@@DarthGandalfYT The "empty areas" on the map of Middle-Earth don't mean that there are no trees at all - there definitely are trees and woodlands in the Vales of Anduin, in Ithilien and so on. Forests that are depicted on the map are especially dense and old forests, not just regular woodland.
When I saw the video I realized I knew the reason, but I couldn't put my finger on it: reading your comment I realized it was because orcs destroy forests and warred with the Ents, which means the forests didn't grow back because the orcs took over Minhiriath farmland (and no doubt allowed the original inhabitants in, but only as farmers and not forest-dwellers). In a comment on a previous video, I stated the orcs and trolls must have taken over Eriador farmland thus resulting in it being a "noman's land" but filled with the peoples of Wilderland: Wargs, Hillmen, Dunlendings, orcs, Uruk-hai, and trolls (with plenty of dwarves, farmers, merchants, and repairmen, on the roads). The trolls would have been the same as giants (as evidenced by "Ettinsmoor").
@@DarthGandalfYT Have you done an economy video on Middle-Earth? I forgot, in any case in my comments on your videos I have explained how the political economy (i.e. a slave society based on enslaved orcs and trolls), could work.
Hi Darth!
I'm suddenly curious; did the Helcaraxë still exist into the Second or Third Ages? When Eru rounded the world, did it lead somewhere new and different now that Valinor was out of the picture?
I'd imagine it as being the equivalent of our own Arctic Ocean. Large body of water covered with ice.
I always assumed it fell into the seas with Beleriand.
As something akin to the Bearing straight, without the land to link it, it would just be ice like the Arctic Ocean.
@General12th
I'm not Darth but I can answer yours question since I read some things from *The* *Silmarillion.*
The sinking of Beleriand after the War of Wrath that lasted 42 years was catastrophic. The sheer destruction also affected the coastal areas west of Middle-earth. As Beleriand sink, Helcaraxë collapses as well. Arda (name of the world) were flat throughout the First and Second Age. The world became round or spherical at the beginning of the Third Age. From the map of Middle-earth, unto the Second and Third Age. There were no indication of Helcaraxë at the upper northwest existing since it was destroyed along Beleriand. Only a land called Lossoth sharing borders north of Eriador. Eastward from Lossoth and beyond north is Forodwaith (otherwise called Northern Waste). A cold barren landscape inhabited by foul beings such as dragons. They found refuge on this desolated land after escaping Beleriand sunk unto the sea.
@@rogueascendant6611 Thanks! I love dragons.
About the fortresses at Barrow Downs:
As far as I understand Tolkien (and Tom Bombadil, who is not a very coherent storyteller), those fortresses were build at the Barrow Downs themselves, close enough to the Old Forest, not at the South Downs and definitely not at the Weather Hills. Barrow Downs were downs (=chalk hills), where barrows (artificial mounds over graves) were built in ancient times. So alongside those mounds on some of those chalk hills there might be built fortresses and towers. Barrow Downs were part of Cardolan, and it seems that those fortresses were built during the period of initial strife between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rudaur, before the rise of Angmar, and were intended to be used against Artedain. There was also a "deep dike with a steep wall on the further side" built on the border between Cardolan and Arthedain, between the Barrow Downs and the Road, presumably by Arthedain, so it clearly wasn't a peaceful border.
thanks for the content cheers would be nice to see this added to Lotro as like a mid level zone alternative to somewhere
Name on maps: Minhiriath
Sam-wise Gamgee: The taterless lands 🥔
Would you ever consider doing elder scrolls content?
Is there anything, at all, which explains how Beleriand actually sunk under the waves? I never could imagine the in world mechanics of this.
If anyone can research this, I bet you can!
Eru.
@@genovayork2468 Nah.
Beleriand sunk under the weight of the powers unleashed by the Valars, Maiars, Balrogs, dragons, and Morgoth. None of the Elves, Men, Dwarves, and others beings are comparable to the big hitters that can bring destruction of immense ferocity. The War of Wrath lasted 42 years. With so much pressure being put up by big players that can shape the landscape. The land eventually collapsed from the great dragon Ancalagon the Black falls that broke the two peaks of Thangorodrim of Angband. This dragon were the greatest and largest of all the dark lord has ever bred. Estimated the diameter and size may encompassed two mountains.
Eru has nothing to do of the western continent sinking. He rarely intervenes towards the making and drama of the world and his children. The only time he did with his authority is burying the King's Men of Numenor who broke the Ban via sailing and setting foot on Valinor. After that he break and bended the world from flat to round. Thus uplifting and removing the Undying Land from the world. Only the Elves from Middle-earth knows the path to the sacred realm as they're allowed a passageway when they are feeling to go home.
Gondor neglected Minhiriath.
Minhiriath was part of Arnor, so Gondor had nothing to do there... But if you meant Enedhwaith, then you are right. Gondor neglected it and later in Third Age gondorians abandoned Enedhwaith and their border moved to line of Angrenost-Aglarond...
Wetlands are actually good at absorbing and cushioning floods.
Does the story of Tal-Elmar take place in Minhiriath? (Or Enedwaith perhaps)
I have thought it takes place somewhere around Andrast.
No Western Story came Close beating Middle-Earth World.
This is why the Lorax said to "respect the trees".
I was wondering why you did not include Enedhwaith in this video, as its history is basically the same! 😛
I"d watch an april fools video that was just this one but titled Enedwaith
PS: Enedwaith had some rohan presence on the East or am I confused by countless Battle for middle earth playthroughs?
There was Westmarch between Isen and Adorn, that was officially part of Rohan (although it seems that it sided with Saruman and Dunendings during the war). But technically it wasn't part of Enedwaith, since Enedwaith is a region between Isen and Gwathlo, and Westmarch is situated on the other side of Isen.
So, where did the last of the population of Tharbad move to when they abandoned the town?
Gondor?
To the surrounding villages, I think. Probably many refugees we se n Bree in the first book and Saruman's ruffians from the third book came from those villages near Tharbad.
Answer to @rikhuravidansker about slavery in the Middle-Earth:
That's true that slaves, thralls and serves existed in the real world in Anglo-Saxon England and other Early Medieval societies, but Tolkien's world is fantasy. As far as I know terms like serfs and thralls are not mentioned at all by Tolkien, and there are no mentions about orcs or trolls enslaved by the Free People either. I do not think that real-world analogies work here. For example, there were a lot of bastards and children born out of wedlock in Medieval Europe, but as far as I know, there are none in Tolkien's universe and adding such an element would be wrong and weird.
Middle Earth having basically post apocalyptic population levels is the one of the weaker parts of Tolkien’s world building. Especially as he would have been very well aware of the population and prosperity of medieval Europe.
I’ve always mentally squared this by assuming that the maps are extremely simplified sketches, akin to a map of Europe with just capital cities. And middle earth is actually full of villages, towns and cities at medieval levels of density, but Tolkien did not personally find that part of the mythos interesting, so didn’t elaborate.
Otherwise we have a strange scenario where the western peoples are at best stagnant vs the seemingly more dynamic and prosperous shadow influenced peoples.
I think you are right to some extent - "empty" lands were actually settled by scattered populations, living in small villages, with maybe a small town (like Bree) or a hillfort here and there. But I do not think it is reasonable to assume that there were entire cities not shown on the map. Middle-Earth doesn't seem "High Medieval" to me - it looks more similar to Dark Age or even Iron Age Europe, with a much smaller and less urbanized population. Even many Gondorians from the southern fiefs are described by Tolkien as semi-barbarian hillmen, closer to Post-Roman Britons or ancient Samnites than to urban militias or mercenary companies of High Middle Ages.
When we see Middle Earth in the Third Age, it’s at the end of a long story, all of its ancient glory relegated to the vanished pasts with the majesty of the elder days having long faded.
It’s not meant to be a vibrant High Medieval inspired setting, things are meant to feel sort of bleak and grave by the time we get to the point in history where the story takes place. As the commenter above me said, the vibe of the setting pulls more from the Fall of Rome / Dark Ages period than it does the Middle Ages proper.
LotR is almost post-apcoalyptic. A bit like dark age England after the fall of Rome..
It isn't medieval Europe.
Eriador after the wars and genocides lost like 90-95% of its people And faced a full collapse of society there. That sounds pretty apocalyptic to me.
Stop spreading the disinformation, Minhiriath wasn't empty :)
There was a populous, although barbarious fisher-folk living between the mouths of Isen and Gwathlo. That's mostly in Enedwaith, but I doubt that no fishermen ever crossed Gwathlo to settle on its northern shores.
There were secretive hunters in the woodlands of Minhiriath - probably descendants of the peope of Eryn Vorn, but as the woodlands recovered, they expanded from the peninsula.
There still were people of Tharbad - while the city itself was deserted after the flood, the inhabitants of the city had to go somewhere. so surrounding villages probably survived. I believe, refugees we see in Bree and Saruman's ruffians were descendamts of that population.
There also were Rangers, who had a camp at Sarn Ford.
It is also said by Frodo, that "there are some Men about" and that hobbits "down in the Southfarthing ... have had trouble with Big People". If Minhiriath was empty, from where did those men came?
I think Minhiriath was as empty as Rhovannion or other areas where were no cities or polities, but still were scattered villages, hamlets and farmsteas.
The way to keep great forests from regrowing on their old ground after a fire is to graze the new-made moorland with sheep or goats or cattle (typically sheep). Away from the coasts and rivers, Minhiriath's population (and Enedwaith's, west of the North-South Road) likely consisted of small bands of pastoralist herdsmen with large flocks of sheep.
@@zimmerwald1915 I think shepherd pastoralists were a large part of Minhiriath and Cardolan population during late Second Age and early Third Age (and thus forests destroyed in the middle of Second Age didn't recover during such a long period of time), but they suffered greatly during Angmar wars, the Great Plague and the Long Winter, and during the events of the LotR there might be only small remnants of that population (at least they aren't specifically mentioned anywhere in our sources). But after that decline of pastoralists woodland begun to recover during late Third Age and hunters from Eryn Vorn started to expand their territory.
I find it hard to buy the whole "empty land" claim. Plagues can devaste. To put it into perspective, the plague that ravaged the first wave of settlers on Greenland took up half of one of those Greenland-Americas Norse books, it was that important. Only a few lines was given to meeting, trade and conflict with the american natives, which is the modern interest. The vikings didn't care that much. The second point of most interest, counting by words used, was to exploring the land. The Greenland population was whiped out because it was dependent on outside resources, it was extremely isolated, and the region got gradually so cold they couldn't sustain themselves. Plague had a massive impact on their lives, however.
Can you think of one case where a plague whiped out every single person left standing? I can't, but I can count people in history that was driven to extinction by war or war-like situations. Genocide of other people is nothing new, but it happened at smaller scale than what we talk about. Usually one settlement at a time. Millions of Christians were wiped in declining years of the Ottoman empire, to the point you can hardly find Christians there anymore. There used to be millions of Christians in Iraq 20 years ago. After the sectarian infighting, there's hardly anyone there.
Ancient people could be driven to extinction, or near extinction from other tribes. However, if a proto-state or kingdom like Cardolan could manifest in that area, it's likely that some petty king would hold (nominal) power using the old systems. Kinda like the Steward held power in Gondor. Kinda like Christians or Muslims would incorporate old buildings or traditions of faith into their own. How the Seljuks of Rum (Rome) or Tzar (Caesar) was incorporated to legitimacy, when there's no actual link. The infrastructure and traditions left over were usually remembered, because it was necessary and useful. At least in theory enough for it to spring up again in the same geographical area, centuries later.
I think I'd buy the "empty land" claim if the land became completely infertile or orcs really went to town.
I do not think the land in Eriador was completely empty - there most likely were small scattered settlements of farmers, pastoralists, fishermen and hunter-gatherers. Due to hardships (plagues, famines, orc raids and so on), population grew very slowly if at all.
There were no new large polities, to some extent because population wasn't large enough to support them, but also because nobody really tried to establish such a polity. Arnor and Cardolan were Numenorean kingdoms, established and ruled by Numenorean elite. Local non-Numenorean populations weren't affected by those polities that much except for paying some taxes and providing auxiliary troops. It seems that Northern Numenoreans didn't try to culturally or physically assimilate local non-Numenorean populations at all, and there was no unifying Arnorian or Cardolanian identity. (It seems that in Gondor such Gondorian identity appeared pretty late, maybe after the Kin-strife or even during the reign of the Stewards). So when Dunedain (Numenoreans) of Cardolan were mostly wiped out due to wars and plagues, and those few who survived either joined their relatives in Arthedain or were assimilated by much more numerous non-Numenoreans, there remained no local tradition of statehood (maybe with the exception of Tharbad, which probably continue to function as a city-state for a long time).
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ How do you know you're not taking the Lore a step too far into the domain of facts of the matter?
There's the people of Dorwinion. Were they a big kingdom? A small kingdom? A city state? A small collection farmers? Since they're not relevant, that information isn't available. We can't say. They sold wine to Thranduil's realm. How do we know? Because that specific point was relevant. This is my point. Just because we're described something or not described something -- doesn't mean that there wasn't something more. The honest answer to what was Dorwinion is that I don't know. Was there some petty kingdom in the ass end of nowhere that played no part in our story? Did the Eotheoden Northmen of northern Anduin hold a minor Chiefdom at this point? Did some Hobbits linger along the Anduin still? No idea.
If we take the written word as a complete encyclopedia, then it dawns on us how the map lights up where the fellowship walks. Did the Blue Wizard succeed in the far east, beyond Khand? Palms of my hand face the sky in search of meaning, because I don't know. Was there an empire there? More scattered farmers and hunter gatherers? I can't say for certain.
This story is told through the eyes of very small folk who see Bree as the biggest thing ever, with a slight Numenoreon bias. High folk, such as the King of Rohan who have no idea Hobbits exist. If it's talked about you can bet your bottom dime it will be relevant some other part of the story. Tolkien won't talk about the "Chiefdom of Dol Vorn and how they were related to the former ancient city of Londaer", if there's not going to be a link to something else. Was there something in Southern Minhiriath? No idea. Did the story take us there? Nope. Coincidence? Hmmm..
In "Flight to the Ford" We're told:
"As they climb into the hills, they begin to see ruins of walls and towers."
Just because they happened to walk past it, we're told:
"Strider says that these are the ruins of ancient Mannish settlements which once belonged to the evil kingdom of Angmar; its shadow still lies here."
What does that mean? Literally, they came across an unknown set of abandoned structures of some unknown settlements, where "shadow still lies". Did they brush up against a minor abandoned border fortifications of a curret Rhaudar King who holds power because he claim to have Numenoreon blood, or did they walk through the "capital" of these people? Just like Dorwinion, I have no idea. Not particularly relevant.
My axiom: After turning from the Ettenmorse, the terrain is difficult to climb. This reminds me of when I go off/on trails that explicitly avoid civilization, untouched by the will of man. It seems they're intentionally trying to stay away from people. As if Aragorn is guiding them to stay hidden and unseen, as opposed to the clumsy Hobbits who sought it out in Bree.
For there to only be scattered farmers and the like on such a scale is like going back an Era to the Gravettians. A time when Europe had 3000-20 000 people, depending on how rough the climate was. The first people to make ceramic. Back when they made those famous Venus statues. Semi hunter gathers, who could roam 200 km to hunt. That's such a long time. 30 000 to 10 000 years ago. Mail armour is something that popped up bit more than 2000 years ago.
@@willek1335 If there were some significant polities in Eriador, then there would be problems for Aragorn to establish his Reunited Kingdom, I think. It is said that ambassadors from Dunland came to Aragorn after his coronation, so it seems that Dunland was a polity (a confederation of chiefdoms, perhaps). Erebor and Dale also sent ambassadors. But there are zero mentions of any significant polities in Minhiriath during the events of the LotR.
I agree that if something isn't mentioned it doesn't mean that it didn't existed at all. Dorwinion is a good example - we know that it existed, its approximate location and that there were great gardens and vineyards, but we know almost nothing else about it. But Dorwinion is situated almost on the edge of the map, while Minhiriath is way closer to the center of it.
Large and powerful polities tend to warp socio-political fabric around them, creating a net of alliances, trade routes, vassal states and so on, and there are no traces of that. So I think that it is save to say that during the events of the LotR there were no major polities in Minhiriath. That, of course, doesn't mean that there weren't many small polities, tribes, townsteads and so on. And there might be larger polities in the past - Third Age is long and during the thousand years after the fall of Arnor a lot could happen.
Everyone knew Minhiriath is empty.
Disappointed the Saralain and other canon adjacent bits of lore never got mentioned. I was really hoping this channel would lead the charge in introducing the world to canon adjacent lore. There's literally nobody else doing it.
8:30
@@tiltskillet7085wow I can't believe I missed that and I must have zoned out right at the end. Still though I was hoping for more but I'll take what I can get.
Looking at the map, if the Fellowship had left immediately after the Council, they could have taken boats south from Rivendell down the Bruinen and Gwathld rivers past Lond Daer, and followed the coast all the way to Belfalas, landing in Southern Gondor. This would have avoided Caradhras and Moria. Of course, that would have led to a completely different story.
Boats that could navigate the Bruinen river were probably unsuited for seafaring. And there were people along the Gwathlo river (including Saruman's agents), so it wasn't a very good plan considering the secrecy of the missiom.
I'd question the first assumption, but I suspect you're right on the second. Would have been helpful if Tolkien had included a scene where Frodo and Gandalf weighed alternatives like these.
@@commandosolo1266 There is a scene where Boromir suggested to go south acrossIsen and the White Mountains into Anfalas, to avoid going through Moria or through the Gap of Rohan. Gandalf replied that such a journey would be too long and the lands there are "empty and harbourless", but not safe, since "the watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them".
I wonder how safe or even navigable the Bruinen and upper Glathlo would be, just in terms of boating in winter. More so even considering the composition of the Fellowship, although if the river route was viable at all, I'd think they could have gotten some experts on loan from Rivendell for at least some portion of it. Kind of academic though, considering the issues that АнтонОрлов-я1ъ brings up.
Alternately they could have gone to Lindon and taken a proper ship from there. But a path back westward was dismissed at the Council as too predictable and dangerous. And even if that was successful, a winter voyage around the coast to Gondor with the Ring suggests plenty of its own dangers, both during it and after.
Book or film, Ahton?
I wonder if Gandalf would have taken the Bruinen southwest if he'd known a Balrog was hiding in Moria? I've always given Elrond the side-eye for letting the dwarves so near him go and die for... :: checks the LOTR wiki :: TWENTY FIVE YEARS without checking in with 'em?!
The big issue with the Fellowship's travels was always stealth and secrecy. Had they traveled within some large army or naval fleet, the movements of that army would have drawn attention. But if they were willing to travel by canoe down the Anduin, surely canoeing down the Bruinen would have presented no greater danger.
Tolkien messed up with this one. Minhiriath should have been a kingdom by the end of the third age with the descendants of the men of Arnor who weren't Dunedain. This kingdom would provide food to the dwarves of the blue mountains. It would also serve as a buffer zone protecting the hobbits and Breelanders from the Dunlending tribes to the south, while the rangers defend Eriador from the North and East. But that's just my fan fiction. It always bothered me that Eriador is so uninhabited
This was always dumbest, most idiotic part of Tolkien's worlbuilding. The comical time scales. Imagine Black Plague in 1300s somehow completely depopulates France and German and today, 650 years later, both regions are completely empty because no one of dozen plus surrounding countries gives a sh*t about vast expanse of prime free land. Land that after fall of Witch King was entirely peaceful so if not surrounding countries then even the remnants of people who lived there should repopulate it in 1/3 of the time entirely on their own due to lack of danger. Wut?
It wasn’t really entirely peaceful though, the Orcs of the misty mountains and the trolls coming down from the Ettenmoors along with the occasional wraiths and other hellish beasts here and there created a very hostile environment in the region outside of the areas that the rangers were actively protecting like the Shire or Bree and the Elven realms in Eriador were not at all in a position to expand their territory due to their ever dwindling population though I’ll agree with you that there should be more populated areas especially bordering Dunland
And who has the means of setteling it? The Dúnedians became a micro-group of frontiersmen employed in the fight against trolls, Dunlending migrated to the south and east towards Rohan, the Drúnedians inhabited their homeland as in previous centuries (and at the same time discouraged foreign settlement), Gondor and the other free countries had other places to expand or were threatened with destruction, etc.
And it was not that peacafull. Especially in the east it was teeming with trolls and orcs who even attacked the Shire and if it weren't for the Dúnadians, who knows how much worse it would have been.
Not everything there was also a nice farmland. You jave cold north, dangerous and mountainous east, deep forests and Barrow downs, which are not really welcoming for new population.
Also, the scale of destruction was far larger. There have been centuries of brutal fighting and instability even after the end of the great war and countless genocides. The entire population of Angmar, Rhudaur, Cardolan,... was killed/expelled and the rest of the region wasn't much better off. Also Germany lost like 20-25% of its population, Eriador, etc. like 90-95% and experienced complete colaps of society, while none of the neighbouring countries was in the position to fill that place. I mean what do you except? That a single surviving city (Bree) can just repopulate area of the size of western Europe?
It was never 1300s France and Germany and it was never peaceful
And the population did increased. Hobbits expanded, Bree folks as well and some Middlemen also made comeback around coast. Now after a 1000 years their extend should've been larger but given the difficulties they faced and the apocaliptic destruction of their societies and populations they went through, it isn't that terribly off as it would seem at first glance.
Also calm down. You act as if Tolkien run you over and then left. It is only a book and despite this flaw, it's still awsome.
Sorry but the more dudes like this go into the depths of the lore the less impressive Tolkein seems. His world building was actually rubbish
cringe
Bullshit
Yeah, I hear - on a relative scale - that there's dozens of "better" world building authors.
I bet you know of a few...
I bet you can name at least ten. But give us the top five best world-building authors??