Kind of terrifying to think all these evil beings are just hiding deep in the earth biding their time waiting for a darker time to re-emerge. Perhaps they all resurfaced once all the Elves left for good and dwarves died out knowing with only Men left, they could easily take over.
Seeing how forgiving Manwe always seemed to be, especially early on, I expect those who asked for forgives were granted a place among the Maiar in Valinor. Which means it would have been quite awkward once Melkor was freed and walked among them in Valinor.
@@Disgruntled_Grunt struck me as uncharacteristic when he seemed to reject Saruman at the end. Morgoth fell in his full power and knowledge and was still offered redemption, but Saruman and the other Istari were hugely limited and (I imagine) more vulnerable to hopelessness and corruption. Perhaps I'm reading too much into a wind from the west 😂
@@dod1194 I think most of us interpret the wind as a deliberate rejection from Valinor. It may not be 100% certain, but I agree with you. As for the first part of your comment, it could be the Valar learned from their early mistakes and didn't want to let the wolves back in.
I feel like falling to temptation when the world was young is one thing, but having witnessed two ages of suffering and Morgoth getting handled TWICE by the Valar, then being specifically sent to Middle Earth to oppose Morgoths #2 and falling anyway is less forgiveable.
I still like Shadow of War's depiction of a Balrog sleeping under Mordor that Sauron's forces uncover. It makes a lot of sense to me for a being of shadow and flame to retreat to a land made of the same elements. I think the Realms in Exile mod for CK3 also has an event with a Balrog being unearthed down in far Harad somewhere. The fates of Morgoth's other servants have always been interesting to me.
I think that some lesser evil Maiar remained in service of Sauron during the Third Age. What about those wolves that attacked the Fellowship near Caradhras? Gandalf said they were "no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness". He also mentioned both wargs and werewolves as servants of Sauron. As far as I understand, werewolves in Middle-Earth are "evil spirits in wolf bodies", and "evil spirits" are of course Maiar. Considering that one of the titles of Sauron was "the lord of werewolves", it seems reasonable that werewolves continued to serve him even during the Third Age. It seems possible that other evil Maiar either served Sauron or existed independently in different parts of Middle-Earth. Some possible examples include barrow-wights (who were evil spirits and so probably not human souls), the Watchers of Cirith-Ungol and the Old Man Willow. Also it is quite possible that many evil Maiar who used their power for evil became less and less powerful (similarly to Morgoth, who spent lot of his power during the First Age, or Sauron, who put a lot of his power into the Ring) and eventually turned into "mere spirits of malice" (like Sauron after the Ring was destroyed).
I've always wondered if the watchers of Cirth Ungol were Mair that were so spent, they could only serve as immobile sentinels propped up by Sauron's witchcraft. With enough time, and certainly without Sauron, they simply would have disputed into nothing more than crumbling statues.
Dragons - much more powerful beings than wargs - were specifically not Maiar. They were bred by Morgoth from lesser serpents and then he imprisoned evil spirits in their bodies. So, I think it's safe to say that wargs weren't Maiar. Werewolves, such as Draugluin, were bred from, say, normal hounds, and the same imprisonment of evil spirits in their bodies was performed upon them. But the question is - what were these evil spirits? When the Children of Ilúvatar awoke, possibly Melkor could have imprisoned their spirits in these monsters. But this doesn't seem to have been an option before then, in his wars with the other Valar. The only solution to this conundrum seems to be that Melkor imprisoned Maiar spirits inside the beasts he bred, at least initially. But what about the offspring of these beasts? Would each of them also need to have a Maia spirit imprisoned within them? Or, could Maiar breed? Now, we know from the example of Melian that Maiar can reproduce with other types of being. It may therefore be that Melkor bred these Maia-imprisoned beasts with each other or with other beasts to create races of sentient monsters. Wargs are the descendants of werewolves interbred with "lesser wolves", which is why they have some residual sentience inherited from ancestors such as Daugluin. So, just as Aragorn and Arwen have an element of the divine in their blood, wargs have an element of the demonic. I can see problems with this explanation, similar to those related to whether Orcs have souls or not and how they were created, but we've gone well past plot hole-related problems here and are now mired in issues with the deep lore and theological questions. So, maybe it's best not to obsess too much about these things and just enjoy the stories instead.
Maiar run the spectrum of power. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the older more poweful orcs were weak maiar. Azog maybe. And maybe a few of the wargs. Various evil spirits Sauron commanded might also have been disembodied Maiar. For example a weak water Maiar might have entered the sleepy stream in Mirkwood to make it sleepy. Or the Olog-Hai, Sauron's super-trolls who were new.
There is another possibility. Morgoth's Maiar could have been capture and banished from the world like Morgoth was. Those that were "killed" would end up with Mando in his Halls of Waiting where they may be held, pardoned, or banished.
Here is a topic why didn't the White Council do anyhting about the Nazgul threat. When Angmar first arose it was a mixed kingdom of men/orcs. The only times that had happened was under Morgoth and Sauron. Even if they didn't think the witch-king was Sauron their response was fairly underwhelming for a potential third Dark Lord. With only the nations in Eraidor being involved, no attempt to gain outside aid till it was far too late when all that was left of Arthedain was Fornost. When Angmar was defeated and it was revealed that the Witch-King was a Nazgul again there response to the Necromancer in Dol Guldur was also underwhelming. They didn't know it was Sauron but they suspected the necromancer was a Nazgul, yet they did nothing despite the fact a single Nazgul was able to wipe nearly all of humanity from an entire region of Middle-Earth. Even when Greenwood became corrupted and begin to spread they still did nothing. even if I accept the excuse that Saruman was able to convince the other council members not to attack, how with previous evidence against allowing a Nazgul to build up its strength I don't know, but why didn't the White Council organize an assault on Minas Ithil. It was obvious with the seizure of Minas Ithil and the Black Gate that the Nazgul would build Mordor back up for Sauron. So why didn't the White Council organize a pre-emptive strike to retake the passes into Mordor while the Nazgul were still establishing themselves.
I have an evil theory, that perhaps the white council was deliberately letting the dark lord come back so they can have the war of the ring to destroy all of evil, not saying they did it by just doing nothing, Rivendale was constantly fighting in eriador, and the necromancer was kicked out, but yet none called Gondor and Galadrielle didn't push down the fortress, it seems like they want to keep sauron ignorant and grow in power so they can have him forget the risk of someone going into Mordor, perhaps even actually Eru's plan. Of course, an easier answer is that they can't intervene too much and that the situation of eriador is probably older than the council, but I really think it's weird that Elron never suggested calling help from Gondor
I do not think that the White Council was powerful enough to organize such pre-emptive strikes regularly. We know only about one such strike and it was not very successful since Sauron just retreated into Mordor and reoccupied Dol Guldur a mere 10 years later. If all their strikes were as successful as this one, then it is pretty obvious why other strikes aren't mentioned in the Tale of Years. As for the war against Angmar, it seems that Lorien did participate in it once in 15th century of the Third Age. It is also possible that the Gondorian intervention was a result of actions of the White Council.
Wait, what if other servants of Morgoth *did* rise up, but Sauron, in order to build up his power in the second age, had to squash each one which could've been a rival?
Weren't the original dragons said to be 'infused with evil spirits'? Could they have been created as bodies for some of his Maiar? Someone else already mentioned the Werewolves, I'd agree with that, and Vampires. Ok, you mentioned that after I typed it, lol.
Yeah, I think it's quite likely that the creation of Dragons had something to do with a fallen Maia. While Glaurung himself wasn't a Maia, his intelligence and ability to perform magic might imply that he was bred from one.
I am skeptical about this. We know that Ainur cannot ever truly be destroyed, although they can lose their power. I would guess that Melkor still has a fair number of demons about, even today, although most of them are now too weak to fashion bodies for themselves. In fact, this is probably true of Sauron (and, of course, Saruman). I might also speculate that Melkor himself by splitting himself up might have left parts of his spirit, now effectively Maiar, in Middle Earth. Who knows, maybe even some of them went looking for redemption!
Was watching this video while doing Delves in Urash Dar. Legacy of Morgoth (and SSG overall) have done such an amazing job with their interpretations of Tolkien's world. Highly recommend for any Tolkien fan.
How about those Barrow Wights? Though the bodies of maiar can be destroyed, their spirits can not. What if the Witch King imprisoned the spirits of slain maiar in human remains? The spirits of slain Elves go to the Halls of Mandos. The spirits of Man eventually leave the earth but the spirits of Maiar can hang around (as exemplified by Sauron). Also, the Witch King had his realm Angmar way up north. Possibly close to the remains of Utumno.
In Silmarillion p.260 it is said that in the early Second age "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil thngs that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion; demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs" Presumably most of these creatures were destroyed by the Numneoreans.
I do like the ideas different games have for this. As others have mentioned, Shadow Of War having a Balrog hiding in Mordor is an interesting idea. The Minecraft LOTR Legacy mod has them hiding in old pits of Utumno you can visit. (I'll put this next part under show more to avoid spoilers, Divide And Conquer) In Divide And Conquer (Mod for Total War: Medieval II), under the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) Faction, you can uncover old halls from the First Age that grants new units and abilities. If you go too far in uncovering more of the halls, a once hiding Balrog leading an army will come out and attack your faction.
I mean, I suppose some of them did do their own thing, but just really really far away from Gondor. And perhaps got thwarted by the Blue Wizards (or similar fellows).
yeah I think it's plausible that the Blue Wizards, among other things, may have tracked down and gotten rid of remaining rogue Maiar. Either through battle or offering redemption.
Middle Earth's cosmology sometimes seems like if the Lovecraft universe had some powerful beings that actually liked mankind (Yes I know that Eru is basically God, and so it's actually more of a Christian framework but to me it has more Lovecraftian vibes than the bible does)
Where in Tolkien's writing does he say that no other evil Maiar troubled the world after Sauron's fall? He has Gandalf tell the attendees of the Last Debate that "Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary." In particular, I feel it's completely possible that Ungoliant is not the only Maia-level evil spirit to have originally gone into the Void or Darkness around Ea rather than follow Melkor into Arda from the first; there could well have been others out there that never allied with either Morgoth or Sauron and didn't go down into Middle-Earth until the later ages of the world, bringing ruin and sorrow to Men until they were defeated.
The Valar and the Ainur are the primeval forces that shaped the world. Their creative power to do this is what we call "magic" - an ability shared to a lesser degree by Elves and to an even smaller extent by Dwarves and maybe early Men (such as the Edain, the Númenóreans and the Beornings), along with some of the other creatures in Tolkien's legendarium. But with the coming of the Dominion of Men, it seems that this shaping of the world and its early history through such primeval forces had moreorless come to an end. The Eldar had mostly all left Middle-earth while the remaining Elves (and maybe Dwarves, too) were destined to dwindle and fade in mortal lands. They had played their part in the early history of the world to ensure the Dominion of Men and now the "magic" was literally draining out of it. The vanquishing of Sauron was, as Tolkien said (letter 191), the end of visibly incarnate evil, so this was obviously also necessary for the Dominion of Men. His defeat was also bound up with the failure of the Elven-Rings and the subsequent departure of their bearers from Middle-earth. And while I don't think it would be impossible for some dark spirit to enter the world from the Outer Darkness, it would introduce another "visible incarnation of evil" into Arda, another magical, primeval, world-creating or destroying force - the kind that Tolkien in letter 191 had implied would never trouble the world again, as that stage of the world's creation, the Elder Days, were well and truly over. Although... there would still have been some residual "magic" left in the world, but always destined to fade into legend and I think Tolkien had finally put the possibility to bed of another Sauron-like being emerging from somewhere to wreak havoc.
In my own headcannon they just complicate stuff for Sauron by guiding different peoples of the far east and south. Like if it wasnt for them during the battle of the Pellennor fields there may have been way more eastlings and oliphaunts or maybe even different peoples all together. Maybe there would have been a new horse riding confederacy that could have reached all the way to the eastern side of the Misty Mountains if it wasnt for their work. Or maybe they just united Chinese like warlords to fight the easterlings in a second front along with maybe saving the other Dwarven houses.
Topics like this Darth are a lot of what is left to cover and there is a ton...Tolkiens less talked about...Whether only mentioned one time or just a few or just not even mentioned but alluded too...Excellent channel you have hear my second favorite after Tolkien Untangled it is like 1A for him 1B for you! Then like Men of the West The Broke Sword and there are a few up and comers!
Arda is big and we never even see most of it. If some of Morgoth's Maiar fled and hid after either the War of the Powers or the War of Wrath, they possibly went much further east (and south and even north) than Durin's Bane or Sauron. There could be remaining fallen Maiar south of Harad or east of Rhun. And like Durin's Bane they may have found hiding places and never emerged.
I think a lot would have been redeemed or at least that would have been what they tried and if failed maybe casted out~! The truth being a lord or dark lord is not all its cracked up to be!
Hi Darth! I'm disappointed by the fact that Sauron was the last divine evil the world faced. That certainly throws a wrench in my awesome fanfic plans.
Do we actually know all that? I am not that versed in the History of Middle-earth series and the letters, but I know the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion pretty well. In the Lord of the Rings are multiple mentions of creatures worse than Orcs. Maybe some of those are Maiar?
It occurs to me that Morgoth could not create life, only corrupt it. Thus it follows he did not create the great worms and dragons. Yet, we know that not only did Glaurung and Smaug exist, they were sophisticated and magical. I suggest that these beasts were physical manifestations of Maia shaped by Melkor the Vala analogous to Gandalf being the physical manifestation of Olorin shaped by Manwe. Perhaps you might explore this idea.
The explanation is incomplete without getting into how Maiar might be killed. You'd think that there'd be a lot of situations similar to the battle of Sauron with Huan the hound, but with a different ending. Maiar in imminent threat of death are able to take multiple forms and flee, so killing them is hard. That said, Maiar can be destroyed and cursed to wander the Earth as formless spirits, so this is more likely than total death.
We're not given a clear explanation of what happens to a Maia when it dies other than exceptions like Sauron and Gandalf. We don't know if there spirits return to Valinor or if they have a different fate.
To the previous 2 replies, the fate of fallen Maiar who "die" is explained in Return of the King. When Sauron and Saruman are destroyed, the text states that their spirits rise up before being blown away by a sudden wind. Saruman even tries going west (presumably to Valinor) but is denied. My interpretation of this is that any fallen Ainur who have their physical forms destroyed and/or expend all of their spirit's innate power are forced to revert to their non-physical form. They are impotent spirits, incapable of re-forming a physical body. They can think and feel, but nothing else. Edit: First sentence re-worded for clarity.
After the War of Wrath, the repentant were presumably imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos, and the unrepentant were cast out the Gate of Night with Morgoth. Sauron specifically had to escape into hiding, and most probably didn’t pull that off.
@ I’ve wondered if the Balin’s expedition happened when it did because after Sauron revealed himself and called his forces to Mordor, the dwarves had hoped that Durin’s Bane would have gone.
how can maiar be vanquished, yet reform? how can balrogs be slain, yet sauron and gandalf can come back? how can melian and the great eagles have children, who are not maiar? if the first great eagles where maiar, how is gwaihir the windlord not? might durins bane be the very maiar, that glorfindel slew, and has returned? how can sauron come back all the time, and even survive the destruction of the ring as a crippled impotent spirit, while balrogs are just slain, who are also maiar like him. how can saruman look to the west and fade, while sauron still does not, after worse crimes? these are the questions that bother me. regarding the slaying of maiar, their fading, their dripping into the world like morgoth, with morgoths ring, there remain really interesting open questions.
Maybe he did return? Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul may theoretically be the same Gothmog who served Morgoth during the First Age, but now so weakened that he was less powerful than a Nazgul.
What about the Boldogs? Saruman also technically became a fallen Maia and there's even a theory that the Witch King is one of the blue wizards.hence explaining Gandalfs reluctance to fight him and how powerful he is in Saurons army.
Boldogs would fall into the other Maiar and lesser spirits category and, because they had the forms of orcs, they help explain how some Orcs seemed to live extraordinarily long lives. The Blue Wizards were Maiar. All the Nazgûl were Men.
The thing is that from the final form of the legendarium I have no idea how many Maiar there are in Arda. There are by my count 16 identifiable Maiar. And if you believe that Ungoliant, the first vampire, and the first werewolf are all Maiar that gets you to 20, there is also at least 1 more unidentified Balrog. I feel like 100 would be too few, but I don't think I could point to anything that preclude that. If there are only 100 Maiar total, than I can see describing Sauron, Gothmog, 3 more Balrogs, Drauglin and Thuringwethil alone as "many" of the Maiar.
I think that there were a lot more of Maiar, since Maiar are just "spirits" and are generally mentioned as collective entities, not as individuals. Of course there were singular powerful Maiar, but counting their names is like counting names of kings and heroes of Elves and Men to determine their numbers.
@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ I tend to agree, but I don't think there's anything in the text that definitely indicates that there are 100s or 1000s of Maiar. What I'm saying is that if someone found a scrap of paper where Tolkien wrote "There are 100 Maiar" would that conflict with anything that he wrote?
@@ech83 I believe it would :) "Their (Maiar) number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar" So 1. the number of Maiar is unknown, any definitive number is most likely wrong, and 2. only few of them are known by name, therefore if it would be strange if at least 1/5 of them had been known by names. Also Maiar are described at least once as "people" and often as "host" or even "great host". I do not think it is possible to describe 100 creatures as a "host" (=multitude), and especially less so since it seems that each one of the Valar had their own host of Maiar.
@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ fair enough. I guess that in the texts that would form Tolkien's mental background the tendency is when specific to talk about unimaginably large numbers of angels. Hundreds of millions, et cetera.
@@istari0 It should be said that he served as Sauron's avatar in The Siege of Gondor because of the psychic bond between the two. So to that extent he was Maiarish.
The Ring Wraiths were mortal men in origin, their minds and wills were enslaved to Sauron through the nine rings that he gave to them. They were not Maiar.
Strangely enough, this is a question that never occurred to me. Thanks for bringing it up and discussing it so thoroughly!
That is common for me with this channel lol..
Kind of terrifying to think all these evil beings are just hiding deep in the earth biding their time waiting for a darker time to re-emerge. Perhaps they all resurfaced once all the Elves left for good and dwarves died out knowing with only Men left, they could easily take over.
Turin son of Hurin smote Glaurung the great dragon aiding all of middle earth even his curse
Seeing how forgiving Manwe always seemed to be, especially early on, I expect those who asked for forgives were granted a place among the Maiar in Valinor. Which means it would have been quite awkward once Melkor was freed and walked among them in Valinor.
Manwe always was a sucker for apologies xD
@@Disgruntled_Grunt struck me as uncharacteristic when he seemed to reject Saruman at the end. Morgoth fell in his full power and knowledge and was still offered redemption, but Saruman and the other Istari were hugely limited and (I imagine) more vulnerable to hopelessness and corruption. Perhaps I'm reading too much into a wind from the west 😂
@@dod1194 I think most of us interpret the wind as a deliberate rejection from Valinor. It may not be 100% certain, but I agree with you.
As for the first part of your comment, it could be the Valar learned from their early mistakes and didn't want to let the wolves back in.
I feel like falling to temptation when the world was young is one thing, but having witnessed two ages of suffering and Morgoth getting handled TWICE by the Valar, then being specifically sent to Middle Earth to oppose Morgoths #2 and falling anyway is less forgiveable.
And only asking to be let back in the good boy club once he had died and literally couldn't do any more evil.
I still like Shadow of War's depiction of a Balrog sleeping under Mordor that Sauron's forces uncover. It makes a lot of sense to me for a being of shadow and flame to retreat to a land made of the same elements. I think the Realms in Exile mod for CK3 also has an event with a Balrog being unearthed down in far Harad somewhere. The fates of Morgoth's other servants have always been interesting to me.
*have, boso.
Turin son of Hurin smote Glaurung the great dragon aiding all of middle earth even his curse
Yeah, the idea of there being another Balrog or two hiding somewhere is a fascinating one.
I think that some lesser evil Maiar remained in service of Sauron during the Third Age. What about those wolves that attacked the Fellowship near Caradhras? Gandalf said they were "no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness". He also mentioned both wargs and werewolves as servants of Sauron. As far as I understand, werewolves in Middle-Earth are "evil spirits in wolf bodies", and "evil spirits" are of course Maiar. Considering that one of the titles of Sauron was "the lord of werewolves", it seems reasonable that werewolves continued to serve him even during the Third Age.
It seems possible that other evil Maiar either served Sauron or existed independently in different parts of Middle-Earth. Some possible examples include barrow-wights (who were evil spirits and so probably not human souls), the Watchers of Cirith-Ungol and the Old Man Willow.
Also it is quite possible that many evil Maiar who used their power for evil became less and less powerful (similarly to Morgoth, who spent lot of his power during the First Age, or Sauron, who put a lot of his power into the Ring) and eventually turned into "mere spirits of malice" (like Sauron after the Ring was destroyed).
Interesting points
I've always wondered if the watchers of Cirth Ungol were Mair that were so spent, they could only serve as immobile sentinels propped up by Sauron's witchcraft.
With enough time, and certainly without Sauron, they simply would have disputed into nothing more than crumbling statues.
Dragons - much more powerful beings than wargs - were specifically not Maiar. They were bred by Morgoth from lesser serpents and then he imprisoned evil spirits in their bodies. So, I think it's safe to say that wargs weren't Maiar. Werewolves, such as Draugluin, were bred from, say, normal hounds, and the same imprisonment of evil spirits in their bodies was performed upon them. But the question is - what were these evil spirits? When the Children of Ilúvatar awoke, possibly Melkor could have imprisoned their spirits in these monsters. But this doesn't seem to have been an option before then, in his wars with the other Valar. The only solution to this conundrum seems to be that Melkor imprisoned Maiar spirits inside the beasts he bred, at least initially. But what about the offspring of these beasts? Would each of them also need to have a Maia spirit imprisoned within them? Or, could Maiar breed? Now, we know from the example of Melian that Maiar can reproduce with other types of being. It may therefore be that Melkor bred these Maia-imprisoned beasts with each other or with other beasts to create races of sentient monsters. Wargs are the descendants of werewolves interbred with "lesser wolves", which is why they have some residual sentience inherited from ancestors such as Daugluin. So, just as Aragorn and Arwen have an element of the divine in their blood, wargs have an element of the demonic. I can see problems with this explanation, similar to those related to whether Orcs have souls or not and how they were created, but we've gone well past plot hole-related problems here and are now mired in issues with the deep lore and theological questions. So, maybe it's best not to obsess too much about these things and just enjoy the stories instead.
Maiar run the spectrum of power. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the older more poweful orcs were weak maiar. Azog maybe. And maybe a few of the wargs.
Various evil spirits Sauron commanded might also have been disembodied Maiar. For example a weak water Maiar might have entered the sleepy stream in Mirkwood to make it sleepy.
Or the Olog-Hai, Sauron's super-trolls who were new.
Maiar are much stronger.
Tolkien did play around with the concept of "Boldogs", Maiar who took the form of Orcs.
There is another possibility. Morgoth's Maiar could have been capture and banished from the world like Morgoth was. Those that were "killed" would end up with Mando in his Halls of Waiting where they may be held, pardoned, or banished.
Indeed.
I don't think maiar can be permanently killed, so perhaps these servants of Morgoth ended as prisoners of Mandos.
Turin son of Hurin smote Glaurung the great dragon aiding all of middle earth even his curse
Here is a topic why didn't the White Council do anyhting about the Nazgul threat. When Angmar first arose it was a mixed kingdom of men/orcs. The only times that had happened was under Morgoth and Sauron. Even if they didn't think the witch-king was Sauron their response was fairly underwhelming for a potential third Dark Lord. With only the nations in Eraidor being involved, no attempt to gain outside aid till it was far too late when all that was left of Arthedain was Fornost. When Angmar was defeated and it was revealed that the Witch-King was a Nazgul again there response to the Necromancer in Dol Guldur was also underwhelming. They didn't know it was Sauron but they suspected the necromancer was a Nazgul, yet they did nothing despite the fact a single Nazgul was able to wipe nearly all of humanity from an entire region of Middle-Earth. Even when Greenwood became corrupted and begin to spread they still did nothing. even if I accept the excuse that Saruman was able to convince the other council members not to attack, how with previous evidence against allowing a Nazgul to build up its strength I don't know, but why didn't the White Council organize an assault on Minas Ithil. It was obvious with the seizure of Minas Ithil and the Black Gate that the Nazgul would build Mordor back up for Sauron. So why didn't the White Council organize a pre-emptive strike to retake the passes into Mordor while the Nazgul were still establishing themselves.
I have an evil theory, that perhaps the white council was deliberately letting the dark lord come back so they can have the war of the ring to destroy all of evil, not saying they did it by just doing nothing, Rivendale was constantly fighting in eriador, and the necromancer was kicked out, but yet none called Gondor and Galadrielle didn't push down the fortress, it seems like they want to keep sauron ignorant and grow in power so they can have him forget the risk of someone going into Mordor, perhaps even actually Eru's plan. Of course, an easier answer is that they can't intervene too much and that the situation of eriador is probably older than the council, but I really think it's weird that Elron never suggested calling help from Gondor
I do not think that the White Council was powerful enough to organize such pre-emptive strikes regularly. We know only about one such strike and it was not very successful since Sauron just retreated into Mordor and reoccupied Dol Guldur a mere 10 years later. If all their strikes were as successful as this one, then it is pretty obvious why other strikes aren't mentioned in the Tale of Years.
As for the war against Angmar, it seems that Lorien did participate in it once in 15th century of the Third Age. It is also possible that the Gondorian intervention was a result of actions of the White Council.
The evil creatures returned as the writers for Amazon's Rings of Power.
Turin son of Hurin smote Glaurung the great dragon aiding all of middle earth even his curse
😅
I am reminded of the Nameless Things.
Wait, what if other servants of Morgoth *did* rise up, but Sauron, in order to build up his power in the second age, had to squash each one which could've been a rival?
That’s a very good theory. Hell is a great idea for a game or movie, Sauron eliminating potential competitors in a secret war
Weren't the original dragons said to be 'infused with evil spirits'? Could they have been created as bodies for some of his Maiar? Someone else already mentioned the Werewolves, I'd agree with that, and Vampires.
Ok, you mentioned that after I typed it, lol.
Yeah, I think it's quite likely that the creation of Dragons had something to do with a fallen Maia. While Glaurung himself wasn't a Maia, his intelligence and ability to perform magic might imply that he was bred from one.
I am skeptical about this. We know that Ainur cannot ever truly be destroyed, although they can lose their power. I would guess that Melkor still has a fair number of demons about, even today, although most of them are now too weak to fashion bodies for themselves. In fact, this is probably true of Sauron (and, of course, Saruman).
I might also speculate that Melkor himself by splitting himself up might have left parts of his spirit, now effectively Maiar, in Middle Earth. Who knows, maybe even some of them went looking for redemption!
Was watching this video while doing Delves in Urash Dar. Legacy of Morgoth (and SSG overall) have done such an amazing job with their interpretations of Tolkien's world. Highly recommend for any Tolkien fan.
How about those Barrow Wights? Though the bodies of maiar can be destroyed, their spirits can not. What if the Witch King imprisoned the spirits of slain maiar in human remains? The spirits of slain Elves go to the Halls of Mandos. The spirits of Man eventually leave the earth but the spirits of Maiar can hang around (as exemplified by Sauron). Also, the Witch King had his realm Angmar way up north. Possibly close to the remains of Utumno.
In Silmarillion p.260 it is said that in the early Second age "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil thngs that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion; demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs" Presumably most of these creatures were destroyed by the Numneoreans.
I do like the ideas different games have for this. As others have mentioned, Shadow Of War having a Balrog hiding in Mordor is an interesting idea. The Minecraft LOTR Legacy mod has them hiding in old pits of Utumno you can visit. (I'll put this next part under show more to avoid spoilers, Divide And Conquer)
In Divide And Conquer (Mod for Total War: Medieval II), under the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) Faction, you can uncover old halls from the First Age that grants new units and abilities. If you go too far in uncovering more of the halls, a once hiding Balrog leading an army will come out and attack your faction.
I mean, I suppose some of them did do their own thing, but just really really far away from Gondor. And perhaps got thwarted by the Blue Wizards (or similar fellows).
yeah I think it's plausible that the Blue Wizards, among other things, may have tracked down and gotten rid of remaining rogue Maiar. Either through battle or offering redemption.
Middle Earth's cosmology sometimes seems like if the Lovecraft universe had some powerful beings that actually liked mankind (Yes I know that Eru is basically God, and so it's actually more of a Christian framework but to me it has more Lovecraftian vibes than the bible does)
Where in Tolkien's writing does he say that no other evil Maiar troubled the world after Sauron's fall? He has Gandalf tell the attendees of the Last Debate that "Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary." In particular, I feel it's completely possible that Ungoliant is not the only Maia-level evil spirit to have originally gone into the Void or Darkness around Ea rather than follow Melkor into Arda from the first; there could well have been others out there that never allied with either Morgoth or Sauron and didn't go down into Middle-Earth until the later ages of the world, bringing ruin and sorrow to Men until they were defeated.
The Valar and the Ainur are the primeval forces that shaped the world. Their creative power to do this is what we call "magic" - an ability shared to a lesser degree by Elves and to an even smaller extent by Dwarves and maybe early Men (such as the Edain, the Númenóreans and the Beornings), along with some of the other creatures in Tolkien's legendarium. But with the coming of the Dominion of Men, it seems that this shaping of the world and its early history through such primeval forces had moreorless come to an end. The Eldar had mostly all left Middle-earth while the remaining Elves (and maybe Dwarves, too) were destined to dwindle and fade in mortal lands. They had played their part in the early history of the world to ensure the Dominion of Men and now the "magic" was literally draining out of it. The vanquishing of Sauron was, as Tolkien said (letter 191), the end of visibly incarnate evil, so this was obviously also necessary for the Dominion of Men. His defeat was also bound up with the failure of the Elven-Rings and the subsequent departure of their bearers from Middle-earth. And while I don't think it would be impossible for some dark spirit to enter the world from the Outer Darkness, it would introduce another "visible incarnation of evil" into Arda, another magical, primeval, world-creating or destroying force - the kind that Tolkien in letter 191 had implied would never trouble the world again, as that stage of the world's creation, the Elder Days, were well and truly over. Although... there would still have been some residual "magic" left in the world, but always destined to fade into legend and I think Tolkien had finally put the possibility to bed of another Sauron-like being emerging from somewhere to wreak havoc.
I wonder if the two Blue Wizards had to face these servants of Morgoth in their own adventures…
They certainly played a bigger role than even Professor Tolkien himself gave them credit for.
In my own headcannon they just complicate stuff for Sauron by guiding different peoples of the far east and south. Like if it wasnt for them during the battle of the Pellennor fields there may have been way more eastlings and oliphaunts or maybe even different peoples all together. Maybe there would have been a new horse riding confederacy that could have reached all the way to the eastern side of the Misty Mountains if it wasnt for their work. Or maybe they just united Chinese like warlords to fight the easterlings in a second front along with maybe saving the other Dwarven houses.
They started their own cults of magic in the far east and were never heard from again.
Could be. Might have come across one or more and the battle ended in mutual destruction.
that was one of your finest outros
Another excellent job covering a lesser known area of The Legendarium!
Yeah I am looking forward to that expansion, I haven't quiet gotten my mariner there yet.. also great topic
Topics like this Darth are a lot of what is left to cover and there is a ton...Tolkiens less talked about...Whether only mentioned one time or just a few or just not even mentioned but alluded too...Excellent channel you have hear my second favorite after Tolkien Untangled it is like 1A for him 1B for you! Then like Men of the West The Broke Sword and there are a few up and comers!
Make sure to check out Girl Next Gondor!!
Another possibility is that some were killed by Sauron in a power struggle following Morgoth's second defeat.
Wonderful video :)
at 1:40 - it would be really hard to light all those candles I think.
thought they all went to sleep under the earth, waiting for Dagor Dagorath (the last battle)? seems odd that Melkor would fight this battle alone.
Arda is big and we never even see most of it. If some of Morgoth's Maiar fled and hid after either the War of the Powers or the War of Wrath, they possibly went much further east (and south and even north) than Durin's Bane or Sauron. There could be remaining fallen Maiar south of Harad or east of Rhun. And like Durin's Bane they may have found hiding places and never emerged.
I always thought they were either killed, forgiven, hidden or sauron got rid of his competition
Just wondering if you have a video of how many elves were in the undying lands/ middle earth by the end of the third age
I think a lot would have been redeemed or at least that would have been what they tried and if failed maybe casted out~! The truth being a lord or dark lord is not all its cracked up to be!
ha, best tagline yet
Hi Darth!
I'm disappointed by the fact that Sauron was the last divine evil the world faced. That certainly throws a wrench in my awesome fanfic plans.
I don't think it is definitely stated somewhere in the canon, and you can always ignore letters and Unfinished Tales if you want to.
the last divine evil that *Middle Earth* faced. Who knows what went on beyond Rhun and Harad. We never see those places.
Do we actually know all that? I am not that versed in the History of Middle-earth series and the letters, but I know the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion pretty well.
In the Lord of the Rings are multiple mentions of creatures worse than Orcs. Maybe some of those are Maiar?
Dumb Romaboo.
thanks for the video people should check out Lotro's latest expansion forsure Legacy of Morgoth the new regions are gorgeous in Near Harad
It occurs to me that Morgoth could not create life, only corrupt it. Thus it follows he did not create the great worms and dragons. Yet, we know that not only did Glaurung and Smaug exist, they were sophisticated and magical. I suggest that these beasts were physical manifestations of Maia shaped by Melkor the Vala analogous to Gandalf being the physical manifestation of Olorin shaped by Manwe. Perhaps you might explore this idea.
I'd assumed that the dragons were warped great eagles, but this is also possible. We know some Maiar became balrogs, so why not dragons?
The explanation is incomplete without getting into how Maiar might be killed. You'd think that there'd be a lot of situations similar to the battle of Sauron with Huan the hound, but with a different ending. Maiar in imminent threat of death are able to take multiple forms and flee, so killing them is hard. That said, Maiar can be destroyed and cursed to wander the Earth as formless spirits, so this is more likely than total death.
Probably not unlike what happened to Saruman.
I just figured DG assumes we know how Ainur work and so didn't want to linger on an explanation.
We're not given a clear explanation of what happens to a Maia when it dies other than exceptions like Sauron and Gandalf. We don't know if there spirits return to Valinor or if they have a different fate.
Indeed.
You'd expect them to remain attached to Arda in some way (like elves) but it's unclear exactly how.
To the previous 2 replies, the fate of fallen Maiar who "die" is explained in Return of the King. When Sauron and Saruman are destroyed, the text states that their spirits rise up before being blown away by a sudden wind. Saruman even tries going west (presumably to Valinor) but is denied.
My interpretation of this is that any fallen Ainur who have their physical forms destroyed and/or expend all of their spirit's innate power are forced to revert to their non-physical form. They are impotent spirits, incapable of re-forming a physical body. They can think and feel, but nothing else.
Edit: First sentence re-worded for clarity.
Most likely, if they were captured, the Maiar serving Morgoth would have been cast out through the Door Of Night into the Void.
Don’t forget the dragons and the guardian of the water, maybe some evil Maiars flee to the corners of the world and turned in to monsters
After the War of Wrath, the repentant were presumably imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos, and the unrepentant were cast out the Gate of Night with Morgoth. Sauron specifically had to escape into hiding, and most probably didn’t pull that off.
others may have hid but if he ever asked them to join him, they went "nah, been there done that, I'm just gonna chill in this cave forever"
@ I’ve wondered if the Balin’s expedition happened when it did because after Sauron revealed himself and called his forces to Mordor, the dwarves had hoped that Durin’s Bane would have gone.
how can maiar be vanquished, yet reform? how can balrogs be slain, yet sauron and gandalf can come back? how can melian and the great eagles have children, who are not maiar? if the first great eagles where maiar, how is gwaihir the windlord not? might durins bane be the very maiar, that glorfindel slew, and has returned? how can sauron come back all the time, and even survive the destruction of the ring as a crippled impotent spirit, while balrogs are just slain, who are also maiar like him. how can saruman look to the west and fade, while sauron still does not, after worse crimes? these are the questions that bother me. regarding the slaying of maiar, their fading, their dripping into the world like morgoth, with morgoths ring, there remain really interesting open questions.
Why didnt Gotmog return after he was destroyed like Sauron did.?
Maybe he did return? Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul may theoretically be the same Gothmog who served Morgoth during the First Age, but now so weakened that he was less powerful than a Nazgul.
What about the Boldogs? Saruman also technically became a fallen Maia and there's even a theory that the Witch King is one of the blue wizards.hence explaining Gandalfs reluctance to fight him and how powerful he is in Saurons army.
The witch King isn't a blue wizard, it's Canon he was Númenorean
Boldogs would fall into the other Maiar and lesser spirits category and, because they had the forms of orcs, they help explain how some Orcs seemed to live extraordinarily long lives.
The Blue Wizards were Maiar. All the Nazgûl were Men.
The thing is that from the final form of the legendarium I have no idea how many Maiar there are in Arda. There are by my count 16 identifiable Maiar. And if you believe that Ungoliant, the first vampire, and the first werewolf are all Maiar that gets you to 20, there is also at least 1 more unidentified Balrog. I feel like 100 would be too few, but I don't think I could point to anything that preclude that. If there are only 100 Maiar total, than I can see describing Sauron, Gothmog, 3 more Balrogs, Drauglin and Thuringwethil alone as "many" of the Maiar.
Ungoliant was an ancient one.
I think that there were a lot more of Maiar, since Maiar are just "spirits" and are generally mentioned as collective entities, not as individuals. Of course there were singular powerful Maiar, but counting their names is like counting names of kings and heroes of Elves and Men to determine their numbers.
@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ I tend to agree, but I don't think there's anything in the text that definitely indicates that there are 100s or 1000s of Maiar. What I'm saying is that if someone found a scrap of paper where Tolkien wrote "There are 100 Maiar" would that conflict with anything that he wrote?
@@ech83 I believe it would :)
"Their (Maiar) number is not known to the
Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar"
So 1. the number of Maiar is unknown, any definitive number is most likely wrong, and 2. only few of them are known by name, therefore if it would be strange if at least 1/5 of them had been known by names.
Also Maiar are described at least once as "people" and often as "host" or even "great host". I do not think it is possible to describe 100 creatures as a "host" (=multitude), and especially less so since it seems that each one of the Valar had their own host of Maiar.
@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ fair enough. I guess that in the texts that would form Tolkien's mental background the tendency is when specific to talk about unimaginably large numbers of angels. Hundreds of millions, et cetera.
Man you need a Discord server
First! Keep doin great Darth!
Witch king was maiar?
No. All the Nazgûl were Men.
@@istari0
It should be said that he served as Sauron's avatar in The Siege of Gondor because of the psychic bond between the two.
So to that extent he was Maiarish.
The Ring Wraiths were mortal men in origin, their minds and wills were enslaved to Sauron through the nine rings that he gave to them. They were not Maiar.
@@addier44 the witch king was actually a maia in tolkiens early writings. I like that