The avari, the blue wizards and the power struggles and rebellions in the east would have been the PERFECT spin off show/movie. Those lands are as big if not bigger than the lands west of mordor and there is barely anything we know about them or the (knowing tolkien) rich history of it all. I personally believe if tolkien had lived a few decades more he would have spent at least some time fleshing out this portion of middle earth.
something you forgot to mention is 1)that all disembodied elven fea are called by mandos, giveing faded elves a chance to be re-embodied in valinor 2) even those that refuse those summons will eventually be re-bodied after the dagor dagorath. so the avari fate of being disembodied spirits is not a certainty nor an eternal fate.
Agreed. I can't remember reading anywhere that the Avari were denied the halls of Mandos. To fade and pass to Mandos' hall sooner rather than later in later ages, yeah, that I would buy. But not to hang around as ghosts.
Well done. I'm sad, upset, even a little anxious and certainly put out. What a tragic fate for such a wondrous people. I'd like to gather all their spirits and put them all in barrow bodies or watchstones, at least give them something to do rather than drifting around listlessly.
The idea of "Fading" into ghost like spirits, with nowhere to go is truly frightening. Without the reprieve afforded by Valinor, Elves truly had a dire finality to their existence. It shines a much more positive light on Eru's "Gift Of Men" where death permitted passage onto another level of existence "The Halls of Illuvatar", where a new type of life awaited. As for the fate of the Avari, would they not upon death arrive in the Halls of Mandos, their future then one of being reincarnated within Valinor? If so, and they somehow became knowledgeable of this, it almost paints a picture of an Elf reaching "The Fade" being slain out of pity by his descendants! (if actual 'death' was a requirement)
This is what I thought too. All elves when their body dies their spirit is called to The Halls of Mandos. So if the last of their body fades away and only their spirit remains it stands to reason that then their spirit would be called too.
Wow - The fate of the Avari seems really dark, and through no fault of their own other than not following Orome thousands of years earlier. It seems a rather arbitrary fate which I doubt Tolkien himself would have really intended.
Middle-earth Mysteries is the most interesting thing ever man, again blowing us away congrtaz! on the Avari, I would say that some faded and some went West troughout the Ages, maybe not for Valinor but further from darkness, as Elrond says. keep up the goodwork man really enjoy your uknown content, cheers!
I'd like to suggest a possible alternative to the sad theory about the Avari. I think it's likely that the souls of faded Elves would eventually go to the Halls of Mandos just like Elves who are killed or die accidentally. Further, in the recent nature of Middle Earth collection we get alot about the reincarnation of Elves. It appears that it may be quite common for this to happen, not in the sense of rebirth, but the regeneration of an identical physical body by the Valar. The reincarnated Elves would then physically remain in Valinor or Aman, except in a few extraordinary cases, (Luthien, Glorfindol) while the Valar decree that dead Noldor won't be reincarnated from the Halls after the Ban is lifted (except for a few extraordinary cases) this was because of the Flight from Valinor and multiple Kinslayings. I don't get the impression that the Avari have been judged nearly as severely, at least not collectively (I don't see Eol getting a new body any time soon, certainly him getting one if Aredhel didn't would be pretty messed up). So I think that many of the Avari, maybe eventually all of them, may eventually be alive again in Valinor, maybe living in the city of Tirion that the Noldor left empty while the returned Noldor are still living on Tol Eressea.
Darth Gandalf got it wrong though. Although in Middle-earth an elf's fëa would cause the hröa to fade, they would still have a body and were still incarnate. Tolkien differentiated between these Faded ones or LIngerers and the Houseless, elven fëa who had lost their bodies through violence or mishap. He wrote that the Houseless were to be avoided because in refusing the summons of Mandos, they were likely tainted by evil. Also Eöl was a Sinda. I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned one of the Avari by name. I downvoted this otherwise good video for that error because so many commenters picked up on it and accepted it as accurate.
@@luisdmatas Most likely not, Moriquendi Dark Elf stands for Elves that had not seen the Light of the Trees, where Dokkaralvar are the orc-like bacl elves of Norse mythology. In Tolkiens lore Dark Elf says nothing about the skincolour or psyche. But when searching for the posibility of elves blackskinned as the Drows of Dungeons and Dragons I would search them among Avari that migrated to the deep south before it became inhabited by humans. Yhere under the Rising of the Sun they had the choice of becoming entirely nocturnal or darkenening their skin to stay diurnal.
I think it unlikely that the Avari would go extinct until they finally started to fade out some time in the Fourth Age. Their kin in the Greenwood/Mirkwood, who remained relatively untroubled by Sauron's aggression through large parts of both the Second and Third Age, showed that even the lesser elves were very hard to dislodge from their home domain. They were formidable adversaries in the deep woods they'd made their home and would probably not be conquered by anything short of a full out attack by Morgoth or Sauron. And nothing suggest that either of them ever turned that kind of attention to the Avari. They reserved that for the Noldor and the Numenoreans. So probably they retreated deep into their forests, like the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood, to finally start to fade away after the end of the Third Age and eventually only remain as spirits in the woods and in the folklore of Men.
I can't remember.. but when Aelfwine is at the Cottage of Lost Play... doesn't he see a ship of near-spirit like elves arrive on the straight road? While those are not cannon anymore.. I've always found it to suggest that perhaps some Avari made the journey eventually
It is a sad tale. The Avari unknowingly doomed themselves in their earliest days. Still, I wonder how far along an elf could fade before being unable to go to Valinor or was that route cut off at some fixed point in the 4th Age.
It was cut off when Cirdan left Middle Earth as it was stated the ship he leaves on would be the last ship to sail to Valinor, meaning while it may still be possible to travel to the undying lands as it is not stated to be completely cut off, no else would sail to the undying lands after Cirdan leaves Middle Earth.
The supposed fate of the Avari in a way parallels Tolkien's religious beliefs; Those that accept the Light of Christ are saved, those that doesn't are lost. The Eldar did not so much accept the Light of Christ but they accepted the Light of the Trees. And as the Catholic Church accepts a deathbed rependence as a ticket to be saved, it could be that Tolkien had a simulate fate in store for the Avari. He writes abound Elves, that when confronted with the sea or seabirds feel the urge to cross the sea and even if they had to build a ship themselves.
@@kamion53 The problem with that idea, morally at least is two-fold a) The Avari are only given the one chance, under highly unfavourable circumstances when faced with a powerful being while probably being aware that dark forces are already plaguing them, assuming even Orome could contact all of them. Christianity allows conversion throughout life including a deathbed one but most/all Avari would never have such an option given the reclusive nature of the Valar and the limited impact of the Noldor who were the only elves with any real knowledge of the Valar. b) While elves are long lived and slow to mature they have children, which I assume applies also to the Avari. This suggestion means that no choice is given to those children which would be evil under Christian as well as other philosophies.
Ironic how Cirdan answers the two original question, you could be able to not fade without going to Valinor until the 4th age where all elves starts fading as time goes on, and the route was cut off when Cirdan's last ship crossed as only his ship (although Legolas and Gimli are said to have made their own) was allowed to cross, and he would cross on the last one
Were the Avari given passage to Valinor by the Valar? I always thought it was implied they were welcome after the ban on the Noldor was lifted, since the Sindar were allowed to go. When they die, they would still be allowed into the halls of Mandos right? I don't think the Valar would be cruel enough to deny them.
I had always had the impression that some of the Avari became orcs, (I had access to the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and the LOTR books, but not most of Tolkien's other writings growing up, so I was unaware of the conflict about the origins of orcs until a few years ago) some died out, and the rest accepted the rule of Oropher, Thranduil's father (who was a Sindarin Elf who had served in the court of King Thingol during the First Age) and became the Wood-Elves mentioned in the Hobbit and LOTR.
I always felt great sympathy for the Dark Elves. They chose to live as the elves were supposed to live in Arda unmarred. Since Tolkien said men and elves were biologically the same and the difference was a fea thing, I wonder if a significant number of Avari interbred with men. If they never experieced Valinor or even Beleriand, they may have been relatively more compatible with men than the Eldar.
Awesome Lore Presentation! I've been searching for hot takes on the Avari for some time now. Well done. Does anybody know the music in the background? I've been wanting to listen to it while reading the Trilogy or Silm.
The Sindarin and Nandor (the Telari factions who did not end up in Valinor) are also called *DARK ELVES* because they never saw the light of the two trees. Are you accidentally conflating those who refused the summons (Avari) and those who accepted the summons (the Eldar) WITH the LIGHT elves (the Vanyar, Noldor & Valinor Telari AKA: Falmari) who went to Valinor with the Dark elves (those who did NOT make it to Valinor)??Remember, the Moriquendi (dark elves) include the Eldarian Telari elves I mentioned above AND the Avari (the refusers). Please Listen to the first few sentences of your introduction again….I am not trying to be a jerk, but it was a bit confusing to those who are less learned with the Legendarium. THANKS….if I’m wrong, please let me know! Thanks for this video on the refusers….its crazy how the Sindarin and Nandor elves had such a different experience than the Avari dark elves did; it’s an interesting tale that needs more discussion IMO, Cheers!
Aren't they grey elves? Cirdan etc the teleri that didn't travel to valinor not because they didn't want to but because they were looking for a companion who was missing
Describing the Avari as Dark Elves is an incomplete but not incorrect classification. The only thing I would change in the introduction would be dropping the fourth "the" from "the Avari, the Unwilling, the Refusers, the Dark Elves" to ""the Avari, the Unwilling, the Refusers, Dark Elves" to be less definitive. Also I would change "Dark Elves" to "Elves of Darkness" because now a bunch of commenters think that Eöl was of the Avari.
Honestly the unfinished nature of so much of his work and the speculation it affords us is part of what makes Middke Earth so alive. Besides, if he had lived the life of a Numenorian at the height of their glory we'd still have a mass of unfinished work. There's no way he would ever have stopped creating new characters and events and he never could have finished them all.
The Avari still exist in Rhun. Not all were twisted by Morrgoth. It's fairly obvious. Avari are still around, doing their own thing far removed from contact with any others of their race.
It is strange that they made no known attempt to retake all of Arda after the War of Power. They could have hunted down the balrogs and destroyed Melkor's fortresses.
Well they had an island before valinor, theyll probably have another after, as for tge elves its due to the corruption of morgoth causing their bodies to fade and leave their spirits disembodied, the magic of the valar stops that, had thongs happened as intended the elves and valar would have been know ln for far longer throughout hostory
I think the original creating of Valinor is understandable as a secure home while they abandon the long and ruinous wars with Melkor. However when the wakening of the elves prompt them to remember their initial oath and defeat and imprison him I think it was an error to abandon Middle Earth and its people's again. Similarly after Melkor is released and then betrays them again it was a great folly to allow him to devastate Middle Earth, especially if as some sources suggested it meant the permanent poisoning of the world. Yes Fearon was a real idiot and scumbag and his followers did evil things but was it worse than what Melkor did, or deserting the free people's of Middle Earth to his rule/destruction. If they had defeated Melkor quickly rather than hiding until someone managed to overcome the barriers they set in place to plea for aid much evil would have been avoided even if they had withdrawn back to Valinor and turned their back on the rest of the world again.
8:06 do we count these 14 000 years after the fall/reign of Morgoth, or do we count them from the birth of the given elf? Say elf is born at the end of the third age. Do they have 14 000 thousand years, or do they have 8 000?
@@DarthGandalfYT Thanks. But I wasn't asking about the exact number. I am interested if say Elrond and Arwen will "fade" at the same time, or will Arwen "fade" later since she is obviously much younger.
I like to think that Dwarves and Elves might be much closer in the East. It's an alliance that makes sense, considering the Men there seem to be mostly under Morgoth and Sauron's influence.
From the new Nature of Middle-earth book. It states that most members of the first few generations of Elves ended up becoming Avari, including the original 144. The explanation for this is that they expended much of their energy raising children, and thus became less adventurous. The first few generations usually had as many as 5-6 kids, whereas later generations normally had 2-4.
@@DarthGandalfYT The Minyar originally counted 16 elves, all Minyar became Vanyar under Ingwë, the Tatyar originally counted 56 elves, half of the Tatyar became Noldor under Finwë, the Nelyar originally counted 74 about 60 % became Teleri under Elwë and Olwë. by implying all the original 144 elves became Avari would imply the "first Elf" Imin would become an Avar and follower of the Avar chiefs Morwë and Nurwë, while he seemed to have been arrogant.
@DarthGandalfYT That's only in Tolkiens earlier version though, there was a second version in that book where the first three male elves (Imin, Tata and Enel) also go to Valinor as ambassadors along with the younger Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe. In this version they all want to go to Valinor with the Eldar and I think Imin definitely does, but they cede leadership to the younger elves. Edit, found the crossed out line " Imin looks up at the stars. He says, “I will remain if any of my folk do”. Tata and Enel say the same." Since all of the Minyar go, but only part of the Tatyar and Nelyar, that implies that Imin and the other 13 first awakened Vanyar go. Tata and Enel (and presumably their wives) stay with the Avari and the other 126 first Tatyar and Nelyar's fate is unknown.
I like to imagine the Avari are cool black guys with fresh fades, they are constantly being enslaved but then breaking free of their chains. It's really cool.
Heard that at least some of the elves of Mirkwood and Mirkwood were Avari. Probably they faced the same choice that all elves faced at the end of the Third Age. Repent of the decision their ancestors made and set sail to the West or remain and be doomed to eventually fade, to forget and be forgotten. Maybe many would've stayed but don't think anything was keeping them from sailing West to the Fourth Age.
Could you do a video on the dark lands? I cant seem to find any info on it on youtube or forums or anything. Its pretty interesting that there is a whole mysterious continent on middle earth and no one seems to care lol.
I might do something on it one day, but unfortunately the reason why you found no info about it is because there's very little we know about it other than its name.
@@DarthGandalfYT thats both dissapointing and exciting lol. A whole continent we know nothing about is so intrig < i dunno how to spell that word but you get it
Avari were at lothlorien and they were in the woodland realm. These elves generally had the apex during the second age when the elves of the sindar began ruling and teaching. And i know galdriel was noldor but her husband was related to thingol and their companions came from the sindaren fief in the west who were made up of elves from doriath.
Bro could you imagine another lord of the rings story involving a corrupted Avari being the new antagonist and involving new lands that’d be wilddsdd Edit: I would also love to see a ‘dark elf’ race of avari that did face the bleak picture possibly painted and retreated underground in their forests and mountains and are dark elves not necessarily out of alignment with evil but by their prolonged existence underground and maybe even altered their skin color to make them darker
@Nikoleo There are a LOT of liberties taken by the creators of the Shadow of War game. Conflating anything from that game and what Tolkien wrote would be silly at best. So the answer to your question would be “no.” Celebrimbor was NOT Avari, he was Feanor’s grandson, and therefore was of the Noldor.
I can give one hint on what happened to the Avari. We are told that some of every race fought on both sides during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, which means that some elves fought for Sauron. These were likely some of the Avari or their descendants.
It actually states that all races, with the exception of Elves, fought on both sides. Elves fought exclusively for good. I'm not sure whether that quote should be taken literally though because it would imply that some Orcs also fought for good.
@@DarthGandalfYT tbf Orcs fights for whoever they fear most technically, its not impossible that with for example the 2 Blue magician in the far east while Sauron was busy with Middle earth, some Orcs were repurposed for good, inherently evil, but fought for the sake of good as their masters were better. In fact theres most likely an enormous conflict between Easterlings Variags Dwarves Orcs and Elves in the far east no one would know about due to sheer distance
no one should expand Tolkien's stories, because they wouldn't be Tolkien's anymore. you loose something when you have multiple authors, too many cooks spoil the broth.
I always pictured the Avari leaving a peaceful happy life in the woods. Untouched by the wars of ME. But you rationalise some points here. Emmm I’m still going to remain optimistic ☺️ 🧝♂️
I don't want to seem dumb, but I am confused. Why would they fade into powerless spirits? I am an Elf, named Quarion. I live in Middle Earth for 4,000 years, and then I die.when I die, my spirit doesn't linger; it's called to the Halls of Mandos, where my fea dwells for some time, before being given a new body, with a new clock vs Morgoth's taint. I'll entirely admit I don't know if most Elves who get reembodied just wake up in Valinor, to save them a trip, or if they "reappear" in the lands from which they departed, like Lorien, the Woodland Realms, ir what have you, but it never felt like my soul would just be abandoned, so why would this happen to be Avari? Some Edain would even will themselves to pass, if you will, instead of battling old age, and Elves could do this, too, say if they were captured, and felt escape was impossible. These souls, too, would be collected by the Doomsman, so why would lingering fea not be drawn to the Halls, and be fine?
Elves like the Avari never wanted to leave Middle-earth in the first place. Thanks to Morgoth's taint, their spirits would overpower their bodies until they had faded, but even as spirits they would ignore Mandos' call and remain in Middle-earth.
Not related to this video, but I have a question/idea for a video: who do you think would win in the fight between elves (Mirkwood/Thranduil), men (Lake Town/Bard) and dwarves (Iron Hills/Dain Iron Foot) if the orcs and wolves/bats took a little longer to arrive? My bet would be the combined forces of men and elves
The Dwarves were the better fighters, but they were outnumbered by at least 4-to-1. I would say the Elves and Men would win, but it would be a very costly battle.
My least favorite thing about Tolkien's work by far is how dirty he did the East. I get what he was going for, that the MAJORITY of the human race, not just the brown ones, had fallen to Sauron and Morgoth by the Third Age. But just a little bit of extra worldbuilding surrounding them would have gone a long way to make the whole thing less uncomfortable. As it is, it unfortunately feels like everything associated with 'East' is almost ontologically bad and savage, which is so much less interesting than it should be.
Aragorn was without peer as a warrior at the time of LOTR. He'd win. Peter Jackson also had a huge man-crush on Legolas and made him to appear more formidable than he was.
Theory crafting here. If the Sea of Helcar pre-Second Age was split between the Sea of Rhûn and the Sea of Núrnen, and the Sea of Rhûn is the modern-day Black Sea (much smaller then) the Sea of Núrnen could be modern-day Sea of Marmara. Alternatively, I consider that the land of Mordor was probably what is now Bulgaria and Southern Romania. So the Sea of Núrnen could be present day Persin Park, now a wetland at the Danube River. Either way, Cuiviénen could be under the eastern Sea of Rhûn, or possibly what is now Khelvachauri, Georgia. I would theorize that the Avari did survive in the various clans, with the main one here, but perhaps the Kindi or Cuind settling in the cedar forests of the modern day Lebanon (Kadisha Valley). The other tribes could be much further east. Trying to theory craft a TTRPG setting pre-Conan, post-4th Age Middle Earth.
So the Valar allowed the Avari to transform into ring wraiths essentially, by not protecting them outside of their ethnically pure Valinor. What a horrible bunch!
Yeah, I don’t think all the elves in Middle Earth will just leave to Valinor in the 4th age. Even their numbers decreases, they still have descendants and they still have time and choice to stay in Middle Earth. Like other elves, I think the Avari will probably maintain their tribes and keep on locating in their woodlands or even continue their dealings with the men, and they may prosper again after the War of the Ring. They may rebuild their relationships with men in west and east (Gondor and Haradrim).
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
The avari, the blue wizards and the power struggles and rebellions in the east would have been the PERFECT spin off show/movie. Those lands are as big if not bigger than the lands west of mordor and there is barely anything we know about them or the (knowing tolkien) rich history of it all. I personally believe if tolkien had lived a few decades more he would have spent at least some time fleshing out this portion of middle earth.
something you forgot to mention is
1)that all disembodied elven fea are called by mandos, giveing faded elves a chance to be re-embodied in valinor
2) even those that refuse those summons will eventually be re-bodied after the dagor dagorath.
so the avari fate of being disembodied spirits is not a certainty nor an eternal fate.
Agreed. I can't remember reading anywhere that the Avari were denied the halls of Mandos. To fade and pass to Mandos' hall sooner rather than later in later ages, yeah, that I would buy. But not to hang around as ghosts.
But the thing is, they're not disembodied. They still have their bodies, they just faded until it's invisible
@@jivanjovan Exactly right. Tolkien took pains to differentiate between the Faded and the Unhoused elves.
Isn't Dagor Dagorath no longer cannon tho?
@@gamercore5216 No - They will eventually develop cannons for use in the Dagor Dagorath.
Seriously I love this series. Pondering on the most mysterious aspects of the lore increases excitement.
Gotta admit, I like Tolkien like the next man, but no one does dark elves better than warhammer
Well done. I'm sad, upset, even a little anxious and certainly put out. What a tragic fate for such a wondrous people. I'd like to gather all their spirits and put them all in barrow bodies or watchstones, at least give them something to do rather than drifting around listlessly.
I think I know a guy who could help you with that.
@@DarthGandalfYT who?
The idea of "Fading" into ghost like spirits, with nowhere to go is truly frightening. Without the reprieve afforded by Valinor, Elves truly had a dire finality to their existence.
It shines a much more positive light on Eru's "Gift Of Men" where death permitted passage onto another level of existence "The Halls of Illuvatar", where a new type of life awaited.
As for the fate of the Avari, would they not upon death arrive in the Halls of Mandos, their future then one of being reincarnated within Valinor?
If so, and they somehow became knowledgeable of this, it almost paints a picture of an Elf reaching "The Fade" being slain out of pity by his descendants! (if actual 'death' was a requirement)
This is what I thought too. All elves when their body dies their spirit is called to The Halls of Mandos. So if the last of their body fades away and only their spirit remains it stands to reason that then their spirit would be called too.
Wow - The fate of the Avari seems really dark, and through no fault of their own other than not following Orome thousands of years earlier. It seems a rather arbitrary fate which I doubt Tolkien himself would have really intended.
He did it all the time, kid, read.
The drawings and paintings are rather wonderful in all of these videos. Cheers.
Middle-earth Mysteries is the most interesting thing ever man, again blowing us away congrtaz!
on the Avari, I would say that some faded and some went West troughout the Ages, maybe not for Valinor but further from darkness, as Elrond says.
keep up the goodwork man really enjoy your uknown content, cheers!
I think once they were just faded elves they could freely travel to the halls of mandos. Like Feanor.
I'd like to suggest a possible alternative to the sad theory about the Avari. I think it's likely that the souls of faded Elves would eventually go to the Halls of Mandos just like Elves who are killed or die accidentally. Further, in the recent nature of Middle Earth collection we get alot about the reincarnation of Elves. It appears that it may be quite common for this to happen, not in the sense of rebirth, but the regeneration of an identical physical body by the Valar. The reincarnated Elves would then physically remain in Valinor or Aman, except in a few extraordinary cases, (Luthien, Glorfindol) while the Valar decree that dead Noldor won't be reincarnated from the Halls after the Ban is lifted (except for a few extraordinary cases) this was because of the Flight from Valinor and multiple Kinslayings. I don't get the impression that the Avari have been judged nearly as severely, at least not collectively (I don't see Eol getting a new body any time soon, certainly him getting one if Aredhel didn't would be pretty messed up). So I think that many of the Avari, maybe eventually all of them, may eventually be alive again in Valinor, maybe living in the city of Tirion that the Noldor left empty while the returned Noldor are still living on Tol Eressea.
Darth Gandalf got it wrong though. Although in Middle-earth an elf's fëa would cause the hröa to fade, they would still have a body and were still incarnate. Tolkien differentiated between these Faded ones or LIngerers and the Houseless, elven fëa who had lost their bodies through violence or mishap. He wrote that the Houseless were to be avoided because in refusing the summons of Mandos, they were likely tainted by evil.
Also Eöl was a Sinda. I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned one of the Avari by name.
I downvoted this otherwise good video for that error because so many commenters picked up on it and accepted it as accurate.
I like the Avari... mysterious, wild, dark elves... possibly even savage or hostile, much like Eol.
Will you ever do a video on the eastern orcs?
Are they dark skin?
@@luisdmatas Most likely not, Moriquendi Dark Elf stands for Elves that had not seen the Light of the Trees, where Dokkaralvar are the orc-like bacl elves of Norse mythology.
In Tolkiens lore Dark Elf says nothing about the skincolour or psyche.
But when searching for the posibility of elves blackskinned as the Drows of Dungeons and Dragons I would search them among Avari that migrated to the deep south before it became inhabited by humans. Yhere under the Rising of the Sun they had the choice of becoming entirely nocturnal or darkenening their skin to stay diurnal.
Eol is not an Avar, but a Sinda. He seriuusly dislikes the Noldor as invaders and thete dislike for him is equeal, they therefor call him Dark Elf.
Eol was not savage, he was an isolationist like Thranduil
I have always wonder about the Avari Elves !! Thank you for fortified my knowledge Darth Gandalf !!
I think it unlikely that the Avari would go extinct until they finally started to fade out some time in the Fourth Age. Their kin in the Greenwood/Mirkwood, who remained relatively untroubled by Sauron's aggression through large parts of both the Second and Third Age, showed that even the lesser elves were very hard to dislodge from their home domain.
They were formidable adversaries in the deep woods they'd made their home and would probably not be conquered by anything short of a full out attack by Morgoth or Sauron. And nothing suggest that either of them ever turned that kind of attention to the Avari. They reserved that for the Noldor and the Numenoreans.
So probably they retreated deep into their forests, like the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood, to finally start to fade away after the end of the Third Age and eventually only remain as spirits in the woods and in the folklore of Men.
Yessss, great video dude, if a tad depressing. Always wondered about these guys. Thanks for tackling the tricky subjects
The Avari faded and became the Fay of Sidhe leaving fairy rings where mortals were ensnared in their magical world.
the avari are one of the most interesting topics in tolkien universe, you should do a similar video about the other houses of the dwarves
I can't remember.. but when Aelfwine is at the Cottage of Lost Play... doesn't he see a ship of near-spirit like elves arrive on the straight road? While those are not cannon anymore.. I've always found it to suggest that perhaps some Avari made the journey eventually
It is a sad tale. The Avari unknowingly doomed themselves in their earliest days. Still, I wonder how far along an elf could fade before being unable to go to Valinor or was that route cut off at some fixed point in the 4th Age.
It was cut off when Cirdan left Middle Earth as it was stated the ship he leaves on would be the last ship to sail to Valinor, meaning while it may still be possible to travel to the undying lands as it is not stated to be completely cut off, no else would sail to the undying lands after Cirdan leaves Middle Earth.
The supposed fate of the Avari in a way parallels Tolkien's religious beliefs; Those that accept the Light of Christ are saved, those that doesn't are lost. The Eldar did not so much accept the Light of Christ but they accepted the Light of the Trees. And as the Catholic Church accepts a deathbed rependence as a ticket to be saved, it could be that Tolkien had a simulate fate in store for the Avari. He writes abound Elves, that when confronted with the sea or seabirds feel the urge to cross the sea and even if they had to build a ship themselves.
@@kamion53 The problem with that idea, morally at least is two-fold
a) The Avari are only given the one chance, under highly unfavourable circumstances when faced with a powerful being while probably being aware that dark forces are already plaguing them, assuming even Orome could contact all of them. Christianity allows conversion throughout life including a deathbed one but most/all Avari would never have such an option given the reclusive nature of the Valar and the limited impact of the Noldor who were the only elves with any real knowledge of the Valar.
b) While elves are long lived and slow to mature they have children, which I assume applies also to the Avari. This suggestion means that no choice is given to those children which would be evil under Christian as well as other philosophies.
Ironic how Cirdan answers the two original question, you could be able to not fade without going to Valinor until the 4th age where all elves starts fading as time goes on, and the route was cut off when Cirdan's last ship crossed as only his ship (although Legolas and Gimli are said to have made their own) was allowed to cross, and he would cross on the last one
@@ryancarter1080but I wonder…when they die, wouldn’t the Avari still go to the halls of Mandos?
Were the Avari given passage to Valinor by the Valar? I always thought it was implied they were welcome after the ban on the Noldor was lifted, since the Sindar were allowed to go.
When they die, they would still be allowed into the halls of Mandos right? I don't think the Valar would be cruel enough to deny them.
They were allowed to sail West, and they would be allowed into the Halls of Mandos. It's up to them to take up those offers.
I had always had the impression that some of the Avari became orcs, (I had access to the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and the LOTR books, but not most of Tolkien's other writings growing up, so I was unaware of the conflict about the origins of orcs until a few years ago) some died out, and the rest accepted the rule of Oropher, Thranduil's father (who was a Sindarin Elf who had served in the court of King Thingol during the First Age) and became the Wood-Elves mentioned in the Hobbit and LOTR.
Can you please do a video on what happened to Ungoliant? I love your videos and this is my favorite series on your channel!!
I always felt great sympathy for the Dark Elves. They chose to live as the elves were supposed to live in Arda unmarred.
Since Tolkien said men and elves were biologically the same and the difference was a fea thing, I wonder if a significant number of Avari interbred with men. If they never experieced Valinor or even Beleriand, they may have been relatively more compatible with men than the Eldar.
Awesome Lore Presentation! I've been searching for hot takes on the Avari for some time now. Well done. Does anybody know the music in the background? I've been wanting to listen to it while reading the Trilogy or Silm.
The Sindarin and Nandor (the Telari factions who did not end up in Valinor) are also called *DARK ELVES* because they never saw the light of the two trees. Are you accidentally conflating those who refused the summons (Avari) and those who accepted the summons (the Eldar) WITH the LIGHT elves (the Vanyar, Noldor & Valinor Telari AKA: Falmari) who went to Valinor with the Dark elves (those who did NOT make it to Valinor)??Remember, the Moriquendi (dark elves) include the Eldarian Telari elves I mentioned above AND the Avari (the refusers). Please Listen to the first few sentences of your introduction again….I am not trying to be a jerk, but it was a bit confusing to those who are less learned with the Legendarium. THANKS….if I’m wrong, please let me know! Thanks for this video on the refusers….its crazy how the Sindarin and Nandor elves had such a different experience than the Avari dark elves did; it’s an interesting tale that needs more discussion IMO, Cheers!
Aren't they grey elves? Cirdan etc the teleri that didn't travel to valinor not because they didn't want to but because they were looking for a companion who was missing
Describing the Avari as Dark Elves is an incomplete but not incorrect classification. The only thing I would change in the introduction would be dropping the fourth "the" from "the Avari, the Unwilling, the Refusers, the Dark Elves" to ""the Avari, the Unwilling, the Refusers, Dark Elves" to be less definitive. Also I would change "Dark Elves" to "Elves of Darkness" because now a bunch of commenters think that Eöl was of the Avari.
The gods should have let tolkien live for a couple extra decades so we could see some of these mysteries solved.
Honestly the unfinished nature of so much of his work and the speculation it affords us is part of what makes Middke Earth so alive. Besides, if he had lived the life of a Numenorian at the height of their glory we'd still have a mass of unfinished work. There's no way he would ever have stopped creating new characters and events and he never could have finished them all.
@@TJDious I wish he would just live forever and create infinite mysteries
@@liviavaleria1342 Eru really wanted to talk to him n share some pipeweed
I doubt they would be resolved. Tolkien prefers to create more mysteries than solve them
God. If you're going to speak of the man then contextualize him with the things that he actually believed. He was a devout Catholic his entire life.
The Avari still exist in Rhun. Not all were twisted by Morrgoth. It's fairly obvious. Avari are still around, doing their own thing far removed from contact with any others of their race.
I would argue that the Valar were wrong to ever have a Valinor, or try to get all the Elves to move there.
Do explain.
Id like to hear your reasoning
It is strange that they made no known attempt to retake all of Arda after the War of Power. They could have hunted down the balrogs and destroyed Melkor's fortresses.
Well they had an island before valinor, theyll probably have another after, as for tge elves its due to the corruption of morgoth causing their bodies to fade and leave their spirits disembodied, the magic of the valar stops that, had thongs happened as intended the elves and valar would have been know ln for far longer throughout hostory
I think the original creating of Valinor is understandable as a secure home while they abandon the long and ruinous wars with Melkor. However when the wakening of the elves prompt them to remember their initial oath and defeat and imprison him I think it was an error to abandon Middle Earth and its people's again. Similarly after Melkor is released and then betrays them again it was a great folly to allow him to devastate Middle Earth, especially if as some sources suggested it meant the permanent poisoning of the world. Yes Fearon was a real idiot and scumbag and his followers did evil things but was it worse than what Melkor did, or deserting the free people's of Middle Earth to his rule/destruction. If they had defeated Melkor quickly rather than hiding until someone managed to overcome the barriers they set in place to plea for aid much evil would have been avoided even if they had withdrawn back to Valinor and turned their back on the rest of the world again.
Those who are slain go to Mandos. Only the ones who hold on to Middle Earth until they are fully faded are truly lost.
What did you mean by 60,000 years? It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion.
I question a lot of Tolkien's timelines but I outright reject 60k years of the Sun as a reasonable estimate.
Where can I find that map
I think that Cirdan (who the oldest elf in middle earth) shows that some of Avari would still be active well into the fourth age.
8:06 do we count these 14 000 years after the fall/reign of Morgoth, or do we count them from the birth of the given elf? Say elf is born at the end of the third age. Do they have 14 000 thousand years, or do they have 8 000?
Unfortunately, we don't know the exact number, but I assume they would not have as long.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thanks. But I wasn't asking about the exact number. I am interested if say Elrond and Arwen will "fade" at the same time, or will Arwen "fade" later since she is obviously much younger.
"And remember,If you get offered to go on heaven on earth it might be wise to take it"
i wrote that down as a quote.🎉
I like to think that Dwarves and Elves might be much closer in the East. It's an alliance that makes sense, considering the Men there seem to be mostly under Morgoth and Sauron's influence.
But what happened to the slain Avari ? Did they go to the halls of Mandos, to be then reembodied on Valinor ?
If they heed Mandos' call, then yes they can.
Imagine if the east was just as cool and in-depth as the west.
1:05 by that you mean that all 144 original elves became avari? If yes could you please point out the source? Thank you in advance.
From the new Nature of Middle-earth book. It states that most members of the first few generations of Elves ended up becoming Avari, including the original 144. The explanation for this is that they expended much of their energy raising children, and thus became less adventurous. The first few generations usually had as many as 5-6 kids, whereas later generations normally had 2-4.
@@DarthGandalfYT it contradicts HoME though. For example every single Minyar became a Vanyar. At this point there is no canon I guess.
@@ΧρήστοςΠαπαδημητρίου-μ6π You're not wrong - canon becomes a mess if we try to fit everything in. We can pick and choose with some things.
@@DarthGandalfYT The Minyar originally counted 16 elves, all Minyar became Vanyar under Ingwë, the Tatyar originally counted 56 elves, half of the Tatyar became Noldor under Finwë, the Nelyar originally counted 74 about 60 % became Teleri under Elwë and Olwë.
by implying all the original 144 elves became Avari would imply the "first Elf" Imin would become an Avar and follower of the Avar chiefs Morwë and Nurwë, while he seemed to have been arrogant.
@DarthGandalfYT That's only in Tolkiens earlier version though, there was a second version in that book where the first three male elves (Imin, Tata and Enel) also go to Valinor as ambassadors along with the younger Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe. In this version they all want to go to Valinor with the Eldar and I think Imin definitely does, but they cede leadership to the younger elves. Edit, found the crossed out line " Imin looks up at the stars. He says, “I will remain if any of my folk do”. Tata and Enel say the same." Since all of the Minyar go, but only part of the Tatyar and Nelyar, that implies that Imin and the other 13 first awakened Vanyar go. Tata and Enel (and presumably their wives) stay with the Avari and the other 126 first Tatyar and Nelyar's fate is unknown.
Heaven on earth? Sounds like what Sauron and Morgoth promised too…
Be careful of who promises things
This made me feel very sad.
I like to imagine the Avari are cool black guys with fresh fades, they are constantly being enslaved but then breaking free of their chains. It's really cool.
Heard that at least some of the elves of Mirkwood and Mirkwood were Avari. Probably they faced the same choice that all elves faced at the end of the Third Age. Repent of the decision their ancestors made and set sail to the West or remain and be doomed to eventually fade, to forget and be forgotten. Maybe many would've stayed but don't think anything was keeping them from sailing West to the Fourth Age.
Could you do a video on the dark lands? I cant seem to find any info on it on youtube or forums or anything. Its pretty interesting that there is a whole mysterious continent on middle earth and no one seems to care lol.
I might do something on it one day, but unfortunately the reason why you found no info about it is because there's very little we know about it other than its name.
@@DarthGandalfYT thats both dissapointing and exciting lol. A whole continent we know nothing about is so intrig < i dunno how to spell that word but you get it
Maybe they sailed east.
Avari were at lothlorien and they were in the woodland realm. These elves generally had the apex during the second age when the elves of the sindar began ruling and teaching. And i know galdriel was noldor but her husband was related to thingol and their companions came from the sindaren fief in the west who were made up of elves from doriath.
Your mom was at Lothlorien
Her father was Noldorin but I think her mother was of the Vanyar!
Right follow the strange man with cute doggoes and a white van when he tells me that he will take me to candyland.
In the beginning, the Valar discovered the Eldar. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
I saw what you did here. Lol
Bro could you imagine another lord of the rings story involving a corrupted Avari being the new antagonist and involving new lands that’d be wilddsdd
Edit: I would also love to see a ‘dark elf’ race of avari that did face the bleak picture possibly painted and retreated underground in their forests and mountains and are dark elves not necessarily out of alignment with evil but by their prolonged existence underground and maybe even altered their skin color to make them darker
Dark Elves: *Exist*
Warhammer fans: *DEBAUCHERY!!!*
Avari....no god, no masters
We’ll nae be fooled agin! Nac Mac Feegle waney!
no friends, lots of enemies
Can you do a Arnor population size video? Lol
:(
He kinda already did.
So quick interesting question, could Celembribor in Shadow of War game, been a last Avari because he is a ghost?
@Nikoleo There are a LOT of liberties taken by the creators of the Shadow of War game. Conflating anything from that game and what Tolkien wrote would be silly at best. So the answer to your question would be “no.” Celebrimbor was NOT Avari, he was Feanor’s grandson, and therefore was of the Noldor.
Ok understood but it's a fun theory speaking as if of parallel universe
I thought the Woodland Elves of Mirkwood were Avari?
some of them mixed with sylvan elves, some took ship eventually.. the remainder became spirits
I can give one hint on what happened to the Avari. We are told that some of every race fought on both sides during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, which means that some elves fought for Sauron. These were likely some of the Avari or their descendants.
It actually states that all races, with the exception of Elves, fought on both sides. Elves fought exclusively for good. I'm not sure whether that quote should be taken literally though because it would imply that some Orcs also fought for good.
@@DarthGandalfYT tbf Orcs fights for whoever they fear most technically, its not impossible that with for example the 2 Blue magician in the far east while Sauron was busy with Middle earth, some Orcs were repurposed for good, inherently evil, but fought for the sake of good as their masters were better. In fact theres most likely an enormous conflict between Easterlings Variags Dwarves Orcs and Elves in the far east no one would know about due to sheer distance
I'd love to see more on these creatures, maybe someone writes a book on the battles against Sauron along side the blue wizards.
no one should expand Tolkien's stories, because they wouldn't be Tolkien's anymore. you loose something when you have multiple authors, too many cooks spoil the broth.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 perhaps. But it call still be content off his own doings. Based off his content
I always pictured the Avari leaving a peaceful happy life in the woods. Untouched by the wars of ME. But you rationalise some points here. Emmm I’m still going to remain optimistic ☺️ 🧝♂️
I don't want to seem dumb, but I am confused. Why would they fade into powerless spirits? I am an Elf, named Quarion. I live in Middle Earth for 4,000 years, and then I die.when I die, my spirit doesn't linger; it's called to the Halls of Mandos, where my fea dwells for some time, before being given a new body, with a new clock vs Morgoth's taint. I'll entirely admit I don't know if most Elves who get reembodied just wake up in Valinor, to save them a trip, or if they "reappear" in the lands from which they departed, like Lorien, the Woodland Realms, ir what have you, but it never felt like my soul would just be abandoned, so why would this happen to be Avari? Some Edain would even will themselves to pass, if you will, instead of battling old age, and Elves could do this, too, say if they were captured, and felt escape was impossible. These souls, too, would be collected by the Doomsman, so why would lingering fea not be drawn to the Halls, and be fine?
Elves like the Avari never wanted to leave Middle-earth in the first place. Thanks to Morgoth's taint, their spirits would overpower their bodies until they had faded, but even as spirits they would ignore Mandos' call and remain in Middle-earth.
Taking a moment to ponder how badass a Sith Gandalf would be
Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.
Hey mate have you Heard of Third age Divide and Conquer?
Yep. I was part of the original team many years ago. I have plans to feature it on my channel very soon.
Not related to this video, but I have a question/idea for a video: who do you think would win in the fight between elves (Mirkwood/Thranduil), men (Lake Town/Bard) and dwarves (Iron Hills/Dain Iron Foot) if the orcs and wolves/bats took a little longer to arrive? My bet would be the combined forces of men and elves
The Dwarves were the better fighters, but they were outnumbered by at least 4-to-1. I would say the Elves and Men would win, but it would be a very costly battle.
@@DarthGandalfYT it would be a Phyrric Victory for the Elves and Men
My least favorite thing about Tolkien's work by far is how dirty he did the East. I get what he was going for, that the MAJORITY of the human race, not just the brown ones, had fallen to Sauron and Morgoth by the Third Age. But just a little bit of extra worldbuilding surrounding them would have gone a long way to make the whole thing less uncomfortable. As it is, it unfortunately feels like everything associated with 'East' is almost ontologically bad and savage, which is so much less interesting than it should be.
Who would win in a fight, Aragorn or Legolas without a bow?
Legolas has elf eyes bro
Legolas' only weapon outside of his bow is a white dagger, so I'd have to say Aragorn would win.
True but he is quicker and he can close the distance so that Aragorn’s sword is useless
Aragorn was without peer as a warrior at the time of LOTR. He'd win. Peter Jackson also had a huge man-crush on Legolas and made him to appear more formidable than he was.
@@DarthGandalfYT btw I really love your channel it deserves way more subs
So the Noldor basically regarded the Avari as unsophisticated and backward country-bumpkins/hicks/yokels.
Certainly the sons of Feanor did
Theory crafting here. If the Sea of Helcar pre-Second Age was split between the Sea of Rhûn and the Sea of Núrnen, and the Sea of Rhûn is the modern-day Black Sea (much smaller then) the Sea of Núrnen could be modern-day Sea of Marmara. Alternatively, I consider that the land of Mordor was probably what is now Bulgaria and Southern Romania. So the Sea of Núrnen could be present day Persin Park, now a wetland at the Danube River. Either way, Cuiviénen could be under the eastern Sea of Rhûn, or possibly what is now Khelvachauri, Georgia. I would theorize that the Avari did survive in the various clans, with the main one here, but perhaps the Kindi or Cuind settling in the cedar forests of the modern day Lebanon (Kadisha Valley). The other tribes could be much further east. Trying to theory craft a TTRPG setting pre-Conan, post-4th Age Middle Earth.
So the Valar allowed the Avari to transform into ring wraiths essentially, by not protecting them outside of their ethnically pure Valinor. What a horrible bunch!
The Valar definitely weren't perfect.
There are several misconceptions in your comment.
Don't understand this. Could Elves not breed creating new generations of Elves ??????
Yeah, I don’t think all the elves in Middle Earth will just leave to Valinor in the 4th age. Even their numbers decreases, they still have descendants and they still have time and choice to stay in Middle Earth. Like other elves, I think the Avari will probably maintain their tribes and keep on locating in their woodlands or even continue their dealings with the men, and they may prosper again after the War of the Ring. They may rebuild their relationships with men in west and east (Gondor and Haradrim).
The Avari simply faded and became Asians.