I love this series and would also love to see more levels that are beatable without jumping after you beat the game, but if you don't want to do that, it's fine.
Death Count Info - There were 49 deaths in this level, taking the total number of deaths in this challenge to 559, with 166 in World 8 so far. Mario is at 145, Luigi is at 138, Yellow Toad is at 128, and Blue Toad is at 148. --- While it's sad to see the challenge come to a crossroads here, I've certainly already considered perhaps allowing for some motion controls to speed up some bubble waiting and to make for a more interesting real time TAS. (I don't know exactly how it works, alas). I think I'm the same as many people when it comes to forgiving the absolutely necessary screw turns. I know it's not necessarily a cleanly definable rule, but many challenges like these become searches for the absolute minimum where 0 is impossible - you're in good company there, and it's in no way a defeat in my opinion.
I know the whole point of this challenge is to try and beat the game with zero jumps and spins, but if you wanted you could also turn this more into a minimalist challenge like the Super Mario 64 A Button challenge, with the goal being as few jumps and spins as possible. That way you could do a 100% if you wanted to and set a bar for them, and then make new discoveries over time to try and reduce the number further. There are some screws here that for sure can't be skipped unless some game-breaking glitch gets discovered that allows you to teleport or something, but it might be interesting to see if there's any possible way to skip some of the other ones, and if not then what the closest you can get to skipping them may be. I've been keeping up with this challenge since the beginning and it's so amazing that you've been able to make it this far, so I don't want this to just seem like a "that's it, we lose" situation.
For sure, the objective now is to avoid breaking the rules as much as possible. I'll still post the last level last week, but then I don't know if I'll work on the remaining levels. It's a lot of work !
I'm sure it is. It's been so cool watching all of this come together and all the challenges you've had to overcome with it. I'm glad I've been able to watch the full journey unfold from start to finish.
I found a way to do it. If you hit the last few pixels of a bubble on the left side while the right side is in the wall, the player spawns inside of the wall a few pixels. Although you get pushed out of the wall sometimes and you can’t die on the other side, meaning you’d need more that 4 players to do it, there’s a chance it’s possible.
Aww, I am sorry to hear that the true jumpless ends here, however still, it was absolutely incredible to watch the progress on this whole series. Thank you so much for all your effort.
Personally, I think that shaking to open the screws is fine. It in no way gains height, and I think should be allowed. I think most people will agree with me on that. Edit: I personally like the "shaking when a prompt shows" idea, but I personally think there should be something explicitly banning the use of a propellor mushroom. I just feel like there would be too many potential loopholes and ways to abuse it, it just won't work if you don't add a counter to it. Edit 2: I'd suggest doing a poll to see what people think about it. (Although of course your say is final, you are the creator.)
It IS the simplest and most reasonable way to get past this level, but still, I don't like making arbitrary exceptions, so I'm thinking of another solution to this unsatisfying problem
@@adealtas well, by seeing what you've done with TAS along all these episode, I'm thinking that if you take time to go back to this level and beat it without breaking a rule, I'm sure you'll find a way like you always do! We believe everything can be done without jumping (praise the no-jump god)
@@adealtas If you don't like the ambiguity of shaking "on a screw", you could go for a minimal number of shake actions that all have to cause a screw to turn. It doesn't matter whether you're on a screw or not, only that the screw turns. This limits the potential for abuse.
the part at 2:22 where blue toad bounced on two bubbles to make it across was insanely well done. also, I love how you constantly ground pounded in the bowser jr fight to always have characters in the air personally, I think this challenge should be a more "minamlist" challenge where you minimize the use of 2 and shake, with 2 being the priority to minimize, in order to account for levels like this. With these rules, mini mushroom and A button should still stay fully banned due to their infinite hight exploits personally, even though the level is "impossible", I think you still won at the end of the day, cause you still didnt need to gain hight with the 2 button or shaking to get past this level.
Despite all they lived through, it is regrettable to admit that in hindsight, the group was doomed to this destiny from the beginning. The prospect of finishing the adventure without jumping or spinning seemed ridiculous at best, however, there was a power in all of them that motivated the group to at least see how far they could get regardless. Their will was reflected not only reflected in their admittedly surprising progress but also in the group's masterful coordination and perseverance. Through each level, the members of the team lifted each other up and pushed forwards no matter how many times they fell to the challenges in their path. What at first seemed like foolishness slowly started to change it's image in the eyes of all who watched, they were now a symbol of determination and hope. People rooted for them and closely followed their adventures, even some ending up fully convinced that they would succeed in their endeavor, specially after they managed to clear the seemingly impossible first tower. Even though the group had started to feel this same hope in this undertaking as they progressed, something felt different when they reached the eight world. More specifically, the moment their eyes locked onto an airship in the distance. Even though they held onto mini mushrooms in case the worst were to happen, the power that once motivated the group had shifted, now filling them with a strong sense of foreboding. Still, they stuck to their ideals and moved forth. "Let's see how far we can get regardless" they thought. Despite the dread produced by the sight of that ominous ship, the group still managed to skilfully navigate through showers of magma, spiky steel balls and the lava geysers of a deadly coaster ride. Many would agree that this was the culmination of everything they learned on their adventure and a true test of cooperation. Only two more levels stood in their path now and the foreboding sense that had manifested in them had not dissipated. There was only one way to go now. The most trusted member, Yoad, led the way as they boarded the airship. The team only had to proceed a bit further to encounter a dead end, a giant metal wall blocking the way forward. As they stopped to contemplate the situation, that power that motivated the team before had once again shifted and now concentrated on Luigi who was standing on top of the screw... *They* needed him to betray their ideals, it was the only way forward. And so, the team saw how Luigi suddenly started spinning on the screw to open a way, seemingly betraying their ideals. Even though the rest of the group was initially conflicted by this, they proceeded forwards hoping they wouldn't have to resort to the many screws present inside the airship again. As they went on, Boad stood on the second screw of the level, doing his best to avoid doing what Luigi had, when Yoad found himself in the same situation however, he felt them urging him to follow Luigi's example and had to comply. The same situation arrived afterwards for Mario and finallty for Boad who showed no hesitation seeing how the entire group had succumbed now. The group reached the end and defeated Bowser Jr with little problem but whatever sense of satisfaction there could've been was not present. They didn't only fail on their adventure but all of them also went against their ideals. Luigi now stood alone, thinking about what had happened and tried his absolute best to convince himself that he didn't do anything wrong, after all, he hadn't gained height from using that screw... "Yes, I'm a winner" he reassured to nobody to himself. -why did I actually write all of this-
A possible definition is... "Allow shaking for level hazards." This way, it's more specific, easy to understand, and less arbitrary. That's just a thought, though. Still, I've enjoyed these many runs regardless!
The fact you got this close and only lost to a _technicality_ is still wildly impressive. High marks all around for your work! -now attempt it with every individual level-
I completely forgot about the screws in the airship level. I really thought this was doable with these rules. I always assumed the primary reason for banning shake was due to spin jump, midair twirl, and propellor mushrooms. This also ended up affecting bubbles (which make the challenge more interesting), tilt platforms, liftable items, and screws. These don't result in a jump, and when you think of a jumpless challenge you don't think about these as restrictions you put in a challenge where you can't jump. But there isn't really a simple way to change the rules without going down a rabbit hole of possibilities, interpretations, and loopholes. I first thought, what if you can't an input that directly result with you gaining height. So no jump, spin jump, bubble shake, and propellor. Bouncing on player heads and enemies are not from an input so they are allowed. But you can still midair twirl and also this ends up banning climbing on ladders and vines. Making it so you can shake only with an onscreen prompt means you need to ban propellor and bubble shake, which you said is a bit much. I think you really need something like a clause, like what you see in Nuzlockes (Shiny clause for example). Doing something like a softlock spin clause saying you can only spin on screws if there is no way possible otherwise to progress can work. They still stay in spirit of the challenge and prevent the run from failing due to something silly like this. Another possibility is rather than asking can you beat the game jumpless, you can ask how many levels can you beat jumpless. Maybe even how many Star Coins can you get in these levels as well. I love seeing how you brought such an interesting challenge in one of my favorite games, I am excited for finale.
I actually quite like the idea of option 2 for solving this problem, with a general rule of "Just don't abuse disconnects or quitting" purely in the name of keeping the spirit of the challenge. It would probably make for a better start to finish run in one take while also letting you beat this level within the rules. ...also I can't figure out why but something in my head tells me 8-Castle will require exactly one propeller spin.
It’s simply a minimum now. This challenge is far from dead. I would like to see as many levels and star tokens as possible, with and without mini mushrooms, keeping track of required jumps for both true and ultra jumpless (or minimum jumps? Almost ultra/true jumpless?). Maybe add more categories for each rule change? (true jumpless allows mini mushrooms, for example)
That would be quite a lot of work to try and collect every star coin and all. Just doing every level is going to take a while. First, I'll take a break after the final level, and then I'll decide what I'll do.
@@adealtas Yeah this is very unsettling I was looking for ways to do it also but couldn't come up with anything I knew this was going to be a problem, sadly there is no way to my knowledge to clip anywhere in this level to skip the screw I think that the change to the rules mentioned in the video description is a great one Being allowed to use motion control when the prompt shows up would be nice Tho in that case may be propeller suit should be banned, like mini-mushroom My point is that mini can provide infinite height, but propeller can provide extreme horizontal movement. With 4 players you could be able so skip an entire level just because of it Also flying with the propeller kinda feels like jumping to me, and also by banning propeller you wouldn't need to ban the + button
@@drg0n_ Yep, that's a way to do things. Since I already ban mini mushroom, I could also ban propeller suits. This would give: Using these rules, I found the restrictions that I currently use: - No A button - No 2 button - Only shake when prompted - No mini mushrooms or propeller mushrooms ( - These rules only apply inside levels ) The rules are starting to get really intricate and not really "easily defined", but I guess it's a solution
Incredible work with this, I’ve been following since 1-3 and I can’t wait to see the finale. I think a good way to define it is that shaking is acceptable if it doesn’t gain height, since that was pretty much the reason it was banned in the first place. No matter how it ends up, congrats on taking on this crazy goal.
New banlist: No A button bubbling or motion controls inside bubbles. No 2 button No picking up objects or other players. No spin jump, air spin, propeller suit spin. No mini mushroom (Only inside levels) This enables screws as well as those tilting lights and tilting platforms, but doesn’t enable any cheese for height gain (besides death-bubble warp, which we allow.) A simple ruleset is great but at the end of the day we want to disable jumping/jump adjacent actions and allow everything else.
You could keep the rules to this Ultra jumpless: - No A button - No 2 button - No motion controls - No mini mushrooms True jumpless: - No A button - No 2 button - No motion controls Jumpless: - No A button - No 2 button
ALMOST jumpless?! oh no... but I have a morbid curiosity to how we fail the challenge... 0:04 I'm in shambles!!! not even 3 seconds later, you're forced to shake. This is still very well done though
That's the thing, I know the rule makes this level impossible, but I can't find a good alternative. This challenge isn't just about no jumping, it's gone a bit past that. I've called it True Jumpless because it sounds better than "2 button A button motion controls challenge"
I can't believe it's almost the end . This has been one of my favorite series to follow and Id definitly like to see the non_requiered levers done this way.
Here's my best take from looking at everyone else's: No shaking if it affects any character's vertical movement. This bans propellors, bubbles, and grabbing characters, but allows for the screw centering the positions of characters. It also gives the extra challenge of not being able to use screws for elevators, which unfortunately could lead to another softlock later.
When I first discovered your channel at 1-3 jumpless this was the first level I thought of, I wasn’t even sure if you could make it this far without jumping but you proved that you can lol
This is a super cool level despite the multiple failures! Probably some of my favourite strategies so far, And that boss fight was hilarious! Thank you for your work, it’s always fun to see a new one of these videos
The best solution I saw while reading others' comment was to create a "clause" that allows motion controls in instances like these. Right now, the current jumpless challenge already has a clause: don't use mini mushrooms *unless* it's impossible to progress without using them. This was made clear in World 2-4, where the level was re-completed to not use mini mushrooms the second time around, and later on mini mushrooms were used in World 5-T because it currently seems impossible to _not_ use them. The second clause could be something like "don't use motion controls unless it is absolutely not possible to progress without them." This stays true to the challenge, doesn't outdate anything, doesn't invalidate any struggles experienced in the past, and neither clause is any more arbitrary than the other. Both clauses don't permit jumping in any way, are applicable to levels outside of the any% jumpless route, and continues the trend of a "True" jumpless challenge.
The only way it gets _kind of_ shady is going for side objectives like star coins. Sure, a level like World 1-T is completable Ultra jumpless with perfect movement and time management, but would the "certain motion controls are allowed" clause be admissible for getting the star coin(s), since otherwise there isn't enough time to collect them?
Well, at least "Jumpless" still qualifies for an achievement lol, I do think that static motion controls _(motion controls that don't impact movement)_ should be excused, albeit it's understandable that it's one of the worst things to happen to this run, we can only wish for a solution :[ amazing progress either way!!! though It's funny that every time a character uses motion controls they IMMEDIATELY have to just throw themselves into death lol, can't wait to see this continue :D
come back to visit this series recently. i still think it doesn’t count as a loss, because the characters never actually leave the ground as a result of shaking the wiimote. massive props to this series as always lol. was fun to wake up to the new ultra jumpless episode when they released last year and see what cool tricks you came up with this time.
One potential rework of the rules is to ban all inputs that directly cause the player to gain height. The primary issue is determining where the line between direct and indirect height is drawn, but I think a good definition is when an input is made for a character, that specific character does not immediately gain height. Jumps, spin jumps, wall jumps, propellers, and shaking in the bubble all break this rule, but shaking on a screw does not as there is no change in velocity happening. Plus, as far as I can remember, pretty much all of your tricks that you’ve used so far fit into this category. Mini mushrooms then can be banned as their own separate rule as it is extremely clear cut and there is impossible to debate what counts or doesn’t for mini mush usage. There’s still some grey area with sliding up slopes and the tilting platforms (or even just walking up slopes), but I think this might be as close as it comes to a simple ruleset with well-defined terms and little ambiguity that still adheres to the spirit of the challenge and allows for screw spins (which being eliminated for is, in my and seemingly most people’s opinions, is not in the spirit of a jumpless challenge)
I really like this idea. I think the only thing that it doesn't account for is picking up items like Pow blocks (done via shaking, so banned in current model, but doesn't change any players height, so not banned in your model),and while I do t think that was an issue in the levels played so far, it might affect some in a full game run (assuming someone out there is crazy enough to try)
I had an idea for an additionnal rule that stay pretty simple and isn't too much specific : - "Allow motion controls as long as it doesn't change any caracter position by itself" This rule would allow the use of motion control for : - the screw (even on moving platforms as it isn't the act of spining that moves the player) - lifting any kind of block such as ice and light blocks And it would not allow the following : - spin jump - shaking in bubble form - lifting someone
The way I would reconcile allowing shaking in the instances where it is absolutely required to progress is to reconceptualize the challenge as getting the highest score possible, where points come from how close to the rules you are to beat a level. If each of the 15 levels along the shortest path to beat the game is worth 100 points, doing all of them ultra jumpless would give you 1500 points. For each level where you have to use a mini mushroom to beat it, subtract like 5-10 points from the level's score. For each time you have to shake the wii remote in a situation where doing so does not move you from the position you are standing at when you start the shake (a shake here defined as 1 contiguous section of time that the wii remote is being shaken during the entirety of), subtract 5-10 points. Then give things like a 2 button press, an A button press, shaking to pick up an object, shaking to spin jump, shaking to extend air time, etc. a point loss value of 100 (or increasingly large values approaching 100 the closer to a "jump" a given action is), so you get 0 points on a stage if you use any of them. Then by aiming for the highest overall score, you're minimizing the number of times you do things like shakes and mini mushrooms secondarily to adhering to the rest of the rules of the challenge, which you're already doing, just codified within the rules of the challenge themselves This probably pushes the "easily defined" requirement a bit too far, but it would fulfill the challenge primarily being about not jumping and keep it nontrivial, while allowing for shaking in this stage (and using mini mushrooms in others) when absolutely necessary
I mean... even though that "broke the rules," the whole purpose of the shaking rule was because of how many ways it could be used to _jump._ And this was absolutely not one of them.
Growing up I loved playing this level on my Wii, I mainly enjoyed listening to the Theme of the Level, and getting to the boss fight. I can recall replaying this level many times.
Adeal, I think due to the fact that the nature of this challenge is (mainly) about not jumping, and we can both agree the level does in fact not require a single jump and yet still "killed" the challenge.... I think allowing motion control should possibly be allowed. Up until this point, you have proven that it is possible to do every level up until this point without jumping. It has for sure not been trivial. While I do acknowledge that you are trying to keep the challenge in the challenge, I think that there's a few things you can do to work with this. 1. new rules for TJC should be -no a button -no 2 button -any motion controls are allowed EXCEPT spin jumps as they are a form of jump This still fits the spirit of the challenge A its about not jumping B easily defined C is the only thing it strays from, it does make the challenge much easier. However: note that I purposefully removed the mini rule personally I feel helicopter should not be in the TJC but, I think it makes more sense this way. adeal I noticed that you had switched your video titles to ultra jumpless, and I like this a lot... but this is the TJC, the True Jumpless Challenge, not ultra jumpless. so 2. I propose UJC Ultra Jumpless Challenge (as a separate thing from TJC) rules for UJC -no a button -no 2 button -motion controls are allowed whenever there is a prompt on screen -no mini mushroom -(?)no helicopter The main reason I think they should be separated is because by the original rules there is no reason for any powerup to be disallowed (tho I do entirely agree with your sentiments about mini), while mini may seem overpowered in a tas, the concept of actually doing the movement rta is... well, there's nothing trivial about that in my opinion. and so far due to the majority of the TJC being completable without the use of those powerups, the only thing allowing them would do is to make the levels faster (same with allowing motion controls for bubbling)
I though for a bit, and finally got an idea to get around these screws! We can shake the remote, _as long as_ we don't gain any height from the shake. This way we can turn screws, but not be able to use a propeller mushroom or get out of bubbles early.
Rule idea, you can't start an action that immeditaly gives that player height. This redefines your rulse like; No A button is here as bubbleing is an action that can move the bubble upwards however dying is an aciotn that gives height sort of so immeditaly is in the rule, No 2 button is here as jumping is an action that immeditaly gives height, No motion controls is here as shaking in a bubble can immeditaly move you upwards, as well as proppler hat/box, motion platforms, grabbing as it moves 1 player upwards, but allows screws since the players dont move upwards, No mini mushroom would remain a rule to avoid making it trivial, Ground pounds are fine because they immeditaly stall you in the air, Popping bubbles might be an issue if you count moving as an action but then the rule has start, so already moving isn't starting an action if you count moving as an action at all. I think how you define/word the rule would decide how well my suggestion works, also it's possible to pop bubbles without pressing a button so maybe not even an issue? Bouncing on heads isn't an action in my opinion, just including everthing I can think of. Twirling, becomes allowed if not speficially ruled out like mini mushrooms but I don't know how impactful it is and can easily be ruled out like minis anyway, Climbing those mesh gates is disallowed, I don't know if that makes it impossible or requires a huge reroute My rule idea might follow you challange defition? It also allows the rules to be applied on the map. TLDR: No pressing a button if it immediatly gives that player height. This allows screws while being simple and keeping 3 of the rules mostly unchanged.
My modification would be that you can use motion controls if and only if your character is on the ground and remains on the ground the entire time the motion controls are used. Bubble shaking, therefore, is not allowed because a character in a bubble isn't on the ground. Screws are allowed because they;re ground that you can stand on. This can open up using motion controls for things that aren't screws but nothing that defeats the spirit of the challenge.
Im sorry that your jumpless challenge sorta came to an end but the way I think about it, you didnt use it to progresss through something with a different route, you had no choice, so honestly, I can live with a slight bend, im super excited to see how the finale is goin to go!! WAHOO!
I just want to appreciate that boss fight - game gives you free height for once, but you _have_ to keep the waves going back and forth for it, and Luigi did til the end. (and Yellow Toad was that close! :P) Yes, Luigi, you _are_ a winner!
Maybe there is another way to setup the rules of the challenge : Gaining height by 1st moving consequence of a non-arrow button use is forbidden. As you mentionned, it allows grabs but no propeller and no bubble. BUT it is complicated. Explaination of the rule : - non-arrow because you can gain height on a slope - FIRST consequence because mini mushroom shenanigans in ultra jumpless (can get rid of FIRST if true jumpless) Edit: actually ground pound is an arrow button so I am dumb and 1st is therefore not needed - MOVING consequence because when you get out of a bubble, you first get out of a bubble (can argue that gaining height and getting out of the bubble are made at the same time, if so can get rid of MOVING)
I really enjoyed the back and forth ground pound strat during he boss fight! A cool way to consistently make it into the air to bounce the bomb back up!
That strategy you used on the boss was really cool! It’s so interesting to think “yeah, I know how to play the game” but still see so many ways that various moves can be used to the advantage of the run.
We could say that shaking is allowed if no vertical height is gained? Propeller mushroom still doesn't work, shaking to jump doesn't work, but these screws do. I feel like that stays at least somewhat in line with the spirit of the challenge
This man deserves an award when he finishes this challenge. For now the best we can do is sub or hit the like button so please at least give the video a like for this man’s efforts
Well, you shouldn't be disappointed. The first and the sixth shakings were forced. The second, third and fifth were possible with a propeller/mini, and the fourth could have been possible maybe with an exceptionally lucky bubble placement, or propeller/mini. Still, you did a good job, and i think that you shouldn't be worried or disappointed about things that can't be avoided. It is still a legit run. If you're worried about the rules, you can use this:"shaking is allowed, only when it's forced (i.e. you can't avoid doing that in any possible way)"
I would love to see a mostly optimized, any% compiled run of this challenge, just to cap it off And to show how much you have learned over the course of the challenge when it comes to bubble manip and such things
While you've technically broken the rules you set at the beginning, personally I think the spirit of the challenge is still perfectly alive. Spinning is normally banned, I assume, because it allows you to extend the length of time you're in the air, move the bubbles around, and most egregiously, use propeller mushroom. The first two would generally make most levels much easier, and the latter would completely destroy the entire challenge and basically defeat the point. Using the screws, for all intents and purposes, is not a jump, a height extender, a movement option, or really anything that in any way breaks the spirit of the challenge. It just so happens to be controlled by shaking the controller. I understand your frustration, and if you need additional stipulations to make it more satisfying for you, I understand. Personally though I don't think there's even a need for that. I look forward to the finale!
Like many people have said, the shakes were completely fair because the shake wasn’t used to gain height. It’s still a true jumpless, because no jumping was used here.
It's so sad that there's no way to beat this level in this challenge. Stupid screws! I have to say though, I love the use of back and forth ground pounds in the boss fight to keep everyone in motion.
Congratulations big man, you got 1 more level to go! I've been with this challenge since the beginning, and I'm kinda sad to see it go, but it's been a great journey :')
@@adealtas Changing the rules to allow characters to pick up other characters during the finale is not a wise decision, so I think we just accept it and if I remember there is no motion controls in the final level.
Why not something like “shaking only allowed if you gain no height”? This series has been incredible and your achievement is remarkable! Looking forward to the finale!
6:05 my heart stopped when i saw the first second of the cutscene I didnt remember it that well so when I saw the little steps behind peach I thought the characters were going to be forced to jump up them in the cutscene but luckily they didnt
my suggestion is "No A, B, or shaking if it affects height and/or vertical velocity." So, any inputs are allowed, but A, B, and shaking would only be allowed when they wouldn't affect height. So spin-jumping is banned, and so is shaking in a bubble (as it affects vertical velocity), but spinning on a screw doesn't, *unless* it's an elevator. Spinning in midair to stall is also still banned (if it's in Wii, don't remember), as it affects vertical velocity. This has the benefit of allowing the challenge to be active outside of levels too, as hitting A or B doesn't affect height very often on the world map. P.S. The wording of the rule assumes there is only one character. If an input to Luigi affects the height of Mario, then it doesn't break the rule. I'd append "of any character" to the end if you don't want this, since it might make grabbing a viable option.
Rule suggestion: No motion controls that gain altitude or distance. That would ban shaking in a bubble (gains altitude on screen), on the floor (that one is obvious why) and also bans lifting up other players, seeing how they gain altitude with that movement. It would also ban the midair spins. It would just apply on screws.
To me, this doesn't violate the version of the challenge that _I_ care about. I could not care less whether you press A or 2 for menuing, or not. Similarly, I could not care less if you use the motion controls in a way that 1) is done while grounded and does not remove anyone from the ground, and 2) does not affect anyone's vertical motion in any way. Yes, that does mean my version would allow for picking up items. I don't think there is any clean ruleset that allows spinning on screws but bans that. (You can still choose not to pick up items, of course.) Either of my rules would still ban picking up players, although maybe allowing it wouldn't trivialize things either? (Also I'd be very interested in 5-T with player grabs, if that's sufficient to make it possible.) I don't love the gears that move you horizontally at 3:46 at 4:04 , they're the only thing in this video that actually gives me some doubt. But they don't violate the two versions of the rule that I said above. I think I don't like the "can use motion controls when there is a prompt on screen" idea, though. That is way too distant from the spirit of the challenge, and leads to something that LOOKS far more arbitrary (even though it's easily defined).
An idea I have is only shaking if it directly affects/puts a player in the air. Kind of hard to define, which is a problem, but it basically bans spin jumps, player throwing, and bubble moving because they put players in the air or move players in the air, while screw using and item pickups are allowed because they don’t directly put a player into the air. It seems like a goos solution but it's hard to define and might have a lot of loopholes.
I think that's an intereting solution: shaking is allowed as long as the players are on the ground and stay on the ground, but it still allows picking up ice blocks and stuff like that, but only if all the players are on the ground which sound a bit stupid tbh.
I think that maybe the first screw underneath the ship could be bypassed if you managed to kill all but one and then run and bounce off all three bubbles. The only problem is that it probably isn't possible to get the bubbles lined up right. These screws really screwed :) up the challenge.
I've really enjoyed the run and while I don't agree that this breaks the rules of no jumping, I understand where you're coming from and respect your insistence on sticking to the initial four rules you defined. This did give me an idea of minimum a presses 100% (similar to the ABC challenge for SM64). Idk how trivial or even possible it'd be, but I'd certainly watch it! In the meantime can't wait to see the end of this challenge!!
I have to pay my respects to you for acknowledging the issues, as opposed to when challenge runners change the rules on the fly and say “actually it is possible”. Very unfortunate that this is how it went, but if you’re up for it, I’d love to see how many other levels you could beat in this fashion!
Yeah, that is actually what bothers me with most challenge youtubers, is that they'll decide arbitrarily what actions count or doesn't count in the challenge. I think I'd rather accept defeat for this one, and I think that's okay :) Not every story has to end in the best way, and not every challenge has to be possible. And that's why they are so entertaining in my opinion.
@@adealtas Ahh, thanks for your response! For the choice of calling it quits um, no worries! This was a great ride, and it was a delight to watch these videos every week :>
I wonder if there's some "minimum motion controls" definition here, in the style of "minimum B presses": any speedrun with less motion input is better than a run with more. I can think of a couple of ways of defining "less motion" which might be worth trying: - Number of frames where the accelerometer is not a specific constant neutral value, or where the sensor bar is in view. (Could need some anti-glitch fine print to also constrain inputs to physically realistic numbers.) - Number of instances of a specific defined "screw activation" motion input sequence, with all other motion controls disallowed. Ideally, the sequence would activate the screws but be minimally useful elsewhere. (Longshot: Are there any motion inputs that "spin" the screws but do not count as shakes for bubbles etc? Like rolling the remote with it pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar?) - Minimum sum of squares of all accelerometer changes? Roughly equivalent to minimum total magnitude^2 of force or torque applied to the controller. ("Roughly" because I believe torques and linear forces are ambiguous with only accelerometer data, but close enough.) The idea here is that (I believe) this is what one would use for a score or "loss function" if you tried to autonomously optimize away the motion controls. I think its properties would match people's intuitions well, but a technical explanation of how the definition works might be difficult. But that doesn't stop the half-presses in "minimum B presses"!
i find that the TAS is still compelling as a minimum jumps run, even if the minimum is 5 or so rather than the ideal 0. someone else in the comments suggested a wording of not using any of the barred inputs to directly make any player gain height, which allows screws while disallowing spin jumps, bubble shaking, picking one another up, etc. i suppose if there was a screw that lifted one or more players up, then that's ambiguous, but the screws only ever directly influence the environment rather than the players as far as i'm aware. regardless, i still find your work to be an elegant piece of art. thank you
I'd say probably the best rule is to allow it if it's to operate part of the level like screws or the tilting platforms. Don't allow it if it's for movement.
I don't know if anyone else has suggested but I think shaking should be allowed if and only if it does not do one of the following: generate hight, bubbles, pick up blocks, increase air time, and or to catch/through players. I'm not sure if this restricts it to only screws but at the least it maintains the goal of the run. You should also try every level in the game to demonstrate just how much of the game can be done, if a level cannot be done the minimum should be noted and considered not possible with current stats. There very might well be some undiscovered bug, but you might have to hunt for people with technical knowledge on new super mario bros wii to help you on that.
![(NSMBW) 8-Castle Ultra Jumpless [TAS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cdOVH7omdo8/mqdefault.jpg)
![(NSMBW) 8-Castle Ultra Jumpless [TAS]](/img/tr.png)
![(NSMBW) 1-Tower Ultra Jumpless [TAS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LONyBkDjROc/mqdefault.jpg)
Even though this level brings disappointing news, please stay excited for next week, as this will be the finale of this challenge !
To me, shaking the remote in order to spin the screw doesn't count as a jump, but that is just me.
It's still jumpless, just not motion-controlless
Agree
I love this series and would also love to see more levels that are beatable without jumping after you beat the game, but if you don't want to do that, it's fine.
You did an incredible job, much love ❤
0:20 here we can see Luigi's execution, as punishment for breaking one of the golden rules of the challenge.
Luigi died for our sins against the Ultra Jumpless challenge.
I love how he hesitates
I think we were all thinking that lol
i didnt notice that on the first watch lol
At least he got a redemption arc along with the twist villain, Yellow Toad, as it’s revealed Luigi was good all along
Well, you gave it a fair shake.
Ah, I see what you did there.
It's a shame that Nintendo screwed us like this.
Boooo, get this man off the stage! (Without jumping, of course)
*Shakes controller in disappointment*
Truly makes me eMOTIONal
Death Count Info - There were 49 deaths in this level, taking the total number of deaths in this challenge to 559, with 166 in World 8 so far. Mario is at 145, Luigi is at 138, Yellow Toad is at 128, and Blue Toad is at 148.
---
While it's sad to see the challenge come to a crossroads here, I've certainly already considered perhaps allowing for some motion controls to speed up some bubble waiting and to make for a more interesting real time TAS. (I don't know exactly how it works, alas).
I think I'm the same as many people when it comes to forgiving the absolutely necessary screw turns. I know it's not necessarily a cleanly definable rule, but many challenges like these become searches for the absolute minimum where 0 is impossible - you're in good company there, and it's in no way a defeat in my opinion.
They didn't leave the ground when spinning so it shouldn't be a loss
Gotta add 1 more for the death of true jumpless 😞
yellow toad bias confirmed.
I know the whole point of this challenge is to try and beat the game with zero jumps and spins, but if you wanted you could also turn this more into a minimalist challenge like the Super Mario 64 A Button challenge, with the goal being as few jumps and spins as possible. That way you could do a 100% if you wanted to and set a bar for them, and then make new discoveries over time to try and reduce the number further. There are some screws here that for sure can't be skipped unless some game-breaking glitch gets discovered that allows you to teleport or something, but it might be interesting to see if there's any possible way to skip some of the other ones, and if not then what the closest you can get to skipping them may be. I've been keeping up with this challenge since the beginning and it's so amazing that you've been able to make it this far, so I don't want this to just seem like a "that's it, we lose" situation.
For sure, the objective now is to avoid breaking the rules as much as possible. I'll still post the last level last week, but then I don't know if I'll work on the remaining levels. It's a lot of work !
I'm sure it is. It's been so cool watching all of this come together and all the challenges you've had to overcome with it. I'm glad I've been able to watch the full journey unfold from start to finish.
@@adealtas i was just hoping you would string all the existing levels together into a full any% ultra jumpless run
I found a way to do it. If you hit the last few pixels of a bubble on the left side while the right side is in the wall, the player spawns inside of the wall a few pixels. Although you get pushed out of the wall sometimes and you can’t die on the other side, meaning you’d need more that 4 players to do it, there’s a chance it’s possible.
@@adealtas I would also like to see star road in those levels. (On an already complete file.)
It may not be Ultra Jumpless, but it is still jumpless which is in of itself impressive.
Also, knowing that there was a higher difficulty than jumpless and also developing so much tech since then is its own reward
Aww, I am sorry to hear that the true jumpless ends here, however still, it was absolutely incredible to watch the progress on this whole series. Thank you so much for all your effort.
Also, as for an idea of how to change the rules, perhaps only allow shakes that provide no liftoff?
He doesn't want to shake while in a bubble either
@@gluglo2984 then perhaps only shaking that provides no momentum?
@@A.I.rchist picking up objects (e.g. POW blocks) provide no momentum
@@homelesscicken5493 Mmmmmm, you're right.
2:16 yellow toad knowing they have just committed a horrible sin proceeds to jump off in shame
Personally, I think that shaking to open the screws is fine. It in no way gains height, and I think should be allowed.
I think most people will agree with me on that.
Edit: I personally like the "shaking when a prompt shows" idea, but I personally think there should be something explicitly banning the use of a propellor mushroom. I just feel like there would be too many potential loopholes and ways to abuse it, it just won't work if you don't add a counter to it.
Edit 2: I'd suggest doing a poll to see what people think about it. (Although of course your say is final, you are the creator.)
yess i agree it should be allowed as it's only using the game mechanics to legitametly progress but even then they still didn't jump so im glad
It IS the simplest and most reasonable way to get past this level, but still, I don't like making arbitrary exceptions, so I'm thinking of another solution to this unsatisfying problem
@@adealtas well, by seeing what you've done with TAS along all these episode, I'm thinking that if you take time to go back to this level and beat it without breaking a rule, I'm sure you'll find a way like you always do! We believe everything can be done without jumping (praise the no-jump god)
Agree.
@@adealtas If you don't like the ambiguity of shaking "on a screw", you could go for a minimal number of shake actions that all have to cause a screw to turn. It doesn't matter whether you're on a screw or not, only that the screw turns. This limits the potential for abuse.
the part at 2:22 where blue toad bounced on two bubbles to make it across was insanely well done.
also, I love how you constantly ground pounded in the bowser jr fight to always have characters in the air
personally, I think this challenge should be a more "minamlist" challenge where you minimize the use of 2 and shake, with 2 being the priority to minimize, in order to account for levels like this. With these rules, mini mushroom and A button should still stay fully banned due to their infinite hight exploits
personally, even though the level is "impossible", I think you still won at the end of the day, cause you still didnt need to gain hight with the 2 button or shaking to get past this level.
Despite all they lived through, it is regrettable to admit that in hindsight, the group was doomed to this destiny from the beginning.
The prospect of finishing the adventure without jumping or spinning seemed ridiculous at best, however, there was a power in all of them that motivated the group to at least see how far they could get regardless. Their will was reflected not only reflected in their admittedly surprising progress but also in the group's masterful coordination and perseverance.
Through each level, the members of the team lifted each other up and pushed forwards no matter how many times they fell to the challenges in their path. What at first seemed like foolishness slowly started to change it's image in the eyes of all who watched, they were now a symbol of determination and hope. People rooted for them and closely followed their adventures, even some ending up fully convinced that they would succeed in their endeavor, specially after they managed to clear the seemingly impossible first tower.
Even though the group had started to feel this same hope in this undertaking as they progressed, something felt different when they reached the eight world. More specifically, the moment their eyes locked onto an airship in the distance. Even though they held onto mini mushrooms in case the worst were to happen, the power that once motivated the group had shifted, now filling them with a strong sense of foreboding. Still, they stuck to their ideals and moved forth. "Let's see how far we can get regardless" they thought.
Despite the dread produced by the sight of that ominous ship, the group still managed to skilfully navigate through showers of magma, spiky steel balls and the lava geysers of a deadly coaster ride. Many would agree that this was the culmination of everything they learned on their adventure and a true test of cooperation. Only two more levels stood in their path now and the foreboding sense that had manifested in them had not dissipated. There was only one way to go now.
The most trusted member, Yoad, led the way as they boarded the airship. The team only had to proceed a bit further to encounter a dead end, a giant metal wall blocking the way forward. As they stopped to contemplate the situation, that power that motivated the team before had once again shifted and now concentrated on Luigi who was standing on top of the screw... *They* needed him to betray their ideals, it was the only way forward. And so, the team saw how Luigi suddenly started spinning on the screw to open a way, seemingly betraying their ideals.
Even though the rest of the group was initially conflicted by this, they proceeded forwards hoping they wouldn't have to resort to the many screws present inside the airship again. As they went on, Boad stood on the second screw of the level, doing his best to avoid doing what Luigi had, when Yoad found himself in the same situation however, he felt them urging him to follow Luigi's example and had to comply. The same situation arrived afterwards for Mario and finallty for Boad who showed no hesitation seeing how the entire group had succumbed now.
The group reached the end and defeated Bowser Jr with little problem but whatever sense of satisfaction there could've been was not present. They didn't only fail on their adventure but all of them also went against their ideals. Luigi now stood alone, thinking about what had happened and tried his absolute best to convince himself that he didn't do anything wrong, after all, he hadn't gained height from using that screw... "Yes, I'm a winner" he reassured to nobody to himself.
-why did I actually write all of this-
Wtf
A possible definition is... "Allow shaking for level hazards." This way, it's more specific, easy to understand, and less arbitrary. That's just a thought, though. Still, I've enjoyed these many runs regardless!
The fact you got this close and only lost to a _technicality_ is still wildly impressive. High marks all around for your work!
-now attempt it with every individual level-
Considering the characters don't actually "jump" on or off of the screw while shaking the remote, I see this as an absolute win.
In my books, this is still a successful challenge so far. You fought the good fight, man!
Despite the sad news, this is still a good level. Particularly liked the triple cannonball hop at 1:17.
I completely forgot about the screws in the airship level. I really thought this was doable with these rules.
I always assumed the primary reason for banning shake was due to spin jump, midair twirl, and propellor mushrooms. This also ended up affecting bubbles (which make the challenge more interesting), tilt platforms, liftable items, and screws. These don't result in a jump, and when you think of a jumpless challenge you don't think about these as restrictions you put in a challenge where you can't jump. But there isn't really a simple way to change the rules without going down a rabbit hole of possibilities, interpretations, and loopholes.
I first thought, what if you can't an input that directly result with you gaining height. So no jump, spin jump, bubble shake, and propellor. Bouncing on player heads and enemies are not from an input so they are allowed. But you can still midair twirl and also this ends up banning climbing on ladders and vines.
Making it so you can shake only with an onscreen prompt means you need to ban propellor and bubble shake, which you said is a bit much.
I think you really need something like a clause, like what you see in Nuzlockes (Shiny clause for example). Doing something like a softlock spin clause saying you can only spin on screws if there is no way possible otherwise to progress can work. They still stay in spirit of the challenge and prevent the run from failing due to something silly like this.
Another possibility is rather than asking can you beat the game jumpless, you can ask how many levels can you beat jumpless. Maybe even how many Star Coins can you get in these levels as well.
I love seeing how you brought such an interesting challenge in one of my favorite games, I am excited for finale.
I actually quite like the idea of option 2 for solving this problem, with a general rule of "Just don't abuse disconnects or quitting" purely in the name of keeping the spirit of the challenge. It would probably make for a better start to finish run in one take while also letting you beat this level within the rules.
...also I can't figure out why but something in my head tells me 8-Castle will require exactly one propeller spin.
I love that Luigi is killed for his crimes at the start of the level, so funny
It’s simply a minimum now. This challenge is far from dead. I would like to see as many levels and star tokens as possible, with and without mini mushrooms, keeping track of required jumps for both true and ultra jumpless (or minimum jumps? Almost ultra/true jumpless?). Maybe add more categories for each rule change? (true jumpless allows mini mushrooms, for example)
That would be quite a lot of work to try and collect every star coin and all. Just doing every level is going to take a while. First, I'll take a break after the final level, and then I'll decide what I'll do.
@@adealtas The point of this comment was that the challenge still has is time. Take as much of it as you need
The first thing that can be done is to look at 5-tower. Either finish it without mini mushroom or take a cannon to world 6
That's sad, but you didn't jump...
It's very unfortunate that it happens on one of the last stages
Yeah, I didn't jump so it should be fine ! But it's still unsatisfying.
@@adealtas are you going to finish the series or was this the end?
@@adealtas Yeah this is very unsettling
I was looking for ways to do it also but couldn't come up with anything
I knew this was going to be a problem, sadly there is no way to my knowledge to clip anywhere in this level to skip the screw
I think that the change to the rules mentioned in the video description is a great one
Being allowed to use motion control when the prompt shows up would be nice
Tho in that case may be propeller suit should be banned, like mini-mushroom
My point is that mini can provide infinite height, but propeller can provide extreme horizontal movement. With 4 players you could be able so skip an entire level just because of it
Also flying with the propeller kinda feels like jumping to me, and also by banning propeller you wouldn't need to ban the + button
@@henkiespenkie4414 at this point, i hope he will end 8-C
@@drg0n_ Yep, that's a way to do things. Since I already ban mini mushroom, I could also ban propeller suits.
This would give:
Using these rules, I found the restrictions that I currently use:
- No A button
- No 2 button
- Only shake when prompted
- No mini mushrooms or propeller mushrooms
( - These rules only apply inside levels )
The rules are starting to get really intricate and not really "easily defined", but I guess it's a solution
2:20 LOVED blue toad jumping across those two bubbles
This is an impressive feat. The game really wants you to shake. The rules shouldn't be modified and i think it is fair for everyone.
Incredible work with this, I’ve been following since 1-3 and I can’t wait to see the finale.
I think a good way to define it is that shaking is acceptable if it doesn’t gain height, since that was pretty much the reason it was banned in the first place. No matter how it ends up, congrats on taking on this crazy goal.
They were having so much fun at the boss fight for all the jumping they couldn't do
New banlist:
No A button bubbling or motion controls inside bubbles.
No 2 button
No picking up objects or other players.
No spin jump, air spin, propeller suit spin.
No mini mushroom
(Only inside levels)
This enables screws as well as those tilting lights and tilting platforms, but doesn’t enable any cheese for height gain (besides death-bubble warp, which we allow.)
A simple ruleset is great but at the end of the day we want to disable jumping/jump adjacent actions and allow everything else.
You could keep the rules to this
Ultra jumpless:
- No A button
- No 2 button
- No motion controls
- No mini mushrooms
True jumpless:
- No A button
- No 2 button
- No motion controls
Jumpless:
- No A button
- No 2 button
ALMOST jumpless?! oh no... but I have a morbid curiosity to how we fail the challenge...
0:04 I'm in shambles!!!
not even 3 seconds later, you're forced to shake. This is still very well done though
no motion controls is kinda dumb, because spinning on the screws is like
obviously
not
jumping
That's the thing, I know the rule makes this level impossible, but I can't find a good alternative. This challenge isn't just about no jumping, it's gone a bit past that. I've called it True Jumpless because it sounds better than "2 button A button motion controls challenge"
I can't believe it's almost the end .
This has been one of my favorite series to follow and Id definitly like to see the non_requiered levers done this way.
I absolutely love the end where Luigi and Yellow Toad just take turns bouncing and ground pounding
Even if the uncompromised run ends here, it's been an honor to witness this awesome challenge!
Here's my best take from looking at everyone else's: No shaking if it affects any character's vertical movement.
This bans propellors, bubbles, and grabbing characters, but allows for the screw centering the positions of characters. It also gives the extra challenge of not being able to use screws for elevators, which unfortunately could lead to another softlock later.
When I first discovered your channel at 1-3 jumpless this was the first level I thought of, I wasn’t even sure if you could make it this far without jumping but you proved that you can lol
Dang! Rlly didn’t realize how FLAT this level is
This is a super cool level despite the multiple failures! Probably some of my favourite strategies so far, And that boss fight was hilarious! Thank you for your work, it’s always fun to see a new one of these videos
The best solution I saw while reading others' comment was to create a "clause" that allows motion controls in instances like these.
Right now, the current jumpless challenge already has a clause: don't use mini mushrooms *unless* it's impossible to progress without using them. This was made clear in World 2-4, where the level was re-completed to not use mini mushrooms the second time around, and later on mini mushrooms were used in World 5-T because it currently seems impossible to _not_ use them.
The second clause could be something like "don't use motion controls unless it is absolutely not possible to progress without them."
This stays true to the challenge, doesn't outdate anything, doesn't invalidate any struggles experienced in the past, and neither clause is any more arbitrary than the other.
Both clauses don't permit jumping in any way, are applicable to levels outside of the any% jumpless route, and continues the trend of a "True" jumpless challenge.
The only way it gets _kind of_ shady is going for side objectives like star coins. Sure, a level like World 1-T is completable Ultra jumpless with perfect movement and time management, but would the "certain motion controls are allowed" clause be admissible for getting the star coin(s), since otherwise there isn't enough time to collect them?
That is a good point. But then that just means completing all worlds is impossible and not that the challenge is meaningless
Well, at least "Jumpless" still qualifies for an achievement lol, I do think that static motion controls _(motion controls that don't impact movement)_ should be excused, albeit it's understandable that it's one of the worst things to happen to this run, we can only wish for a solution :[ amazing progress either way!!!
though It's funny that every time a character uses motion controls they IMMEDIATELY have to just throw themselves into death lol, can't wait to see this continue :D
A nice touch to execute the characters that spun by crushing them with the blocks they themselves moved.
come back to visit this series recently. i still think it doesn’t count as a loss, because the characters never actually leave the ground as a result of shaking the wiimote.
massive props to this series as always lol. was fun to wake up to the new ultra jumpless episode when they released last year and see what cool tricks you came up with this time.
One potential rework of the rules is to ban all inputs that directly cause the player to gain height. The primary issue is determining where the line between direct and indirect height is drawn, but I think a good definition is when an input is made for a character, that specific character does not immediately gain height. Jumps, spin jumps, wall jumps, propellers, and shaking in the bubble all break this rule, but shaking on a screw does not as there is no change in velocity happening. Plus, as far as I can remember, pretty much all of your tricks that you’ve used so far fit into this category. Mini mushrooms then can be banned as their own separate rule as it is extremely clear cut and there is impossible to debate what counts or doesn’t for mini mush usage. There’s still some grey area with sliding up slopes and the tilting platforms (or even just walking up slopes), but I think this might be as close as it comes to a simple ruleset with well-defined terms and little ambiguity that still adheres to the spirit of the challenge and allows for screw spins (which being eliminated for is, in my and seemingly most people’s opinions, is not in the spirit of a jumpless challenge)
I really like this idea. I think the only thing that it doesn't account for is picking up items like Pow blocks (done via shaking, so banned in current model, but doesn't change any players height, so not banned in your model),and while I do t think that was an issue in the levels played so far, it might affect some in a full game run (assuming someone out there is crazy enough to try)
I had an idea for an additionnal rule that stay pretty simple and isn't too much specific :
- "Allow motion controls as long as it doesn't change any caracter position by itself"
This rule would allow the use of motion control for :
- the screw (even on moving platforms as it isn't the act of spining that moves the player)
- lifting any kind of block such as ice and light blocks
And it would not allow the following :
- spin jump
- shaking in bubble form
- lifting someone
The way I would reconcile allowing shaking in the instances where it is absolutely required to progress is to reconceptualize the challenge as getting the highest score possible, where points come from how close to the rules you are to beat a level. If each of the 15 levels along the shortest path to beat the game is worth 100 points, doing all of them ultra jumpless would give you 1500 points. For each level where you have to use a mini mushroom to beat it, subtract like 5-10 points from the level's score. For each time you have to shake the wii remote in a situation where doing so does not move you from the position you are standing at when you start the shake (a shake here defined as 1 contiguous section of time that the wii remote is being shaken during the entirety of), subtract 5-10 points. Then give things like a 2 button press, an A button press, shaking to pick up an object, shaking to spin jump, shaking to extend air time, etc. a point loss value of 100 (or increasingly large values approaching 100 the closer to a "jump" a given action is), so you get 0 points on a stage if you use any of them. Then by aiming for the highest overall score, you're minimizing the number of times you do things like shakes and mini mushrooms secondarily to adhering to the rest of the rules of the challenge, which you're already doing, just codified within the rules of the challenge themselves
This probably pushes the "easily defined" requirement a bit too far, but it would fulfill the challenge primarily being about not jumping and keep it nontrivial, while allowing for shaking in this stage (and using mini mushrooms in others) when absolutely necessary
I mean... even though that "broke the rules," the whole purpose of the shaking rule was because of how many ways it could be used to _jump._ And this was absolutely not one of them.
Growing up I loved playing this level on my Wii, I mainly enjoyed listening to the Theme of the Level, and getting to the boss fight. I can recall replaying this level many times.
Adeal,
I think due to the fact that the nature of this challenge is (mainly) about not jumping, and we can both agree the level does in fact not require a single jump and yet still "killed" the challenge....
I think allowing motion control should possibly be allowed.
Up until this point, you have proven that it is possible to do every level up until this point without jumping. It has for sure not been trivial.
While I do acknowledge that you are trying to keep the challenge in the challenge, I think that there's a few things you can do to work with this.
1. new rules for TJC should be
-no a button
-no 2 button
-any motion controls are allowed EXCEPT spin jumps as they are a form of jump
This still fits the spirit of the challenge
A its about not jumping
B easily defined
C is the only thing it strays from, it does make the challenge much easier. However: note that I purposefully removed the mini rule
personally I feel helicopter should not be in the TJC but, I think it makes more sense this way.
adeal I noticed that you had switched your video titles to ultra jumpless, and I like this a lot... but this is the TJC,
the True Jumpless Challenge, not ultra jumpless.
so
2.
I propose UJC
Ultra Jumpless Challenge
(as a separate thing from TJC)
rules for UJC
-no a button
-no 2 button
-motion controls are allowed whenever there is a prompt on screen
-no mini mushroom
-(?)no helicopter
The main reason I think they should be separated is because by the original rules there is no reason for any powerup to be disallowed (tho I do entirely agree with your sentiments about mini), while mini may seem overpowered in a tas, the concept of actually doing the movement rta is... well, there's nothing trivial about that in my opinion.
and so far due to the majority of the TJC being completable without the use of those powerups, the only thing allowing them would do is to make the levels faster (same with allowing motion controls for bubbling)
Despite this, I think the spirt of the challenge is still preserved.
I though for a bit, and finally got an idea to get around these screws!
We can shake the remote, _as long as_ we don't gain any height from the shake.
This way we can turn screws, but not be able to use a propeller mushroom or get out of bubbles early.
Rule idea, you can't start an action that immeditaly gives that player height. This redefines your rulse like;
No A button is here as bubbleing is an action that can move the bubble upwards however dying is an aciotn that gives height sort of so immeditaly is in the rule,
No 2 button is here as jumping is an action that immeditaly gives height,
No motion controls is here as shaking in a bubble can immeditaly move you upwards, as well as proppler hat/box, motion platforms, grabbing as it moves 1 player upwards, but allows screws since the players dont move upwards,
No mini mushroom would remain a rule to avoid making it trivial,
Ground pounds are fine because they immeditaly stall you in the air,
Popping bubbles might be an issue if you count moving as an action but then the rule has start, so already moving isn't starting an action if you count moving as an action at all. I think how you define/word the rule would decide how well my suggestion works, also it's possible to pop bubbles without pressing a button so maybe not even an issue?
Bouncing on heads isn't an action in my opinion, just including everthing I can think of.
Twirling, becomes allowed if not speficially ruled out like mini mushrooms but I don't know how impactful it is and can easily be ruled out like minis anyway,
Climbing those mesh gates is disallowed, I don't know if that makes it impossible or requires a huge reroute
My rule idea might follow you challange defition? It also allows the rules to be applied on the map.
TLDR: No pressing a button if it immediatly gives that player height. This allows screws while being simple and keeping 3 of the rules mostly unchanged.
What about climbing a vine or a pole ? Also, in a sense, climbing a slope also changes one's height. Entering a pipe also changes one's height.
Guys make sure you read the description!!
My modification would be that you can use motion controls if and only if your character is on the ground and remains on the ground the entire time the motion controls are used. Bubble shaking, therefore, is not allowed because a character in a bubble isn't on the ground. Screws are allowed because they;re ground that you can stand on. This can open up using motion controls for things that aren't screws but nothing that defeats the spirit of the challenge.
Im sorry that your jumpless challenge sorta came to an end but the way I think about it, you didnt use it to progresss through something with a different route, you had no choice, so honestly, I can live with a slight bend, im super excited to see how the finale is goin to go!! WAHOO!
I just want to appreciate that boss fight - game gives you free height for once, but you _have_ to keep the waves going back and forth for it, and Luigi did til the end. (and Yellow Toad was that close! :P) Yes, Luigi, you _are_ a winner!
2:24 I really love the part that you use bubbles as platforms
Maybe there is another way to setup the rules of the challenge :
Gaining height by 1st moving consequence of a non-arrow button use is forbidden.
As you mentionned, it allows grabs but no propeller and no bubble.
BUT it is complicated.
Explaination of the rule :
- non-arrow because you can gain height on a slope
- FIRST consequence because mini mushroom shenanigans in ultra jumpless (can get rid of FIRST if true jumpless)
Edit: actually ground pound is an arrow button so I am dumb and 1st is therefore not needed
- MOVING consequence because when you get out of a bubble, you first get out of a bubble (can argue that gaining height and getting out of the bubble are made at the same time, if so can get rid of MOVING)
I really enjoyed the back and forth ground pound strat during he boss fight! A cool way to consistently make it into the air to bounce the bomb back up!
That strategy you used on the boss was really cool! It’s so interesting to think “yeah, I know how to play the game” but still see so many ways that various moves can be used to the advantage of the run.
We could say that shaking is allowed if no vertical height is gained? Propeller mushroom still doesn't work, shaking to jump doesn't work, but these screws do. I feel like that stays at least somewhat in line with the spirit of the challenge
Screwing != jumping. We still good. Also that bowser fight was dope.
well, even though it may be impossible it was still fun to see the minimum amount of spins required
I wonder what this challenge would look like for 100% True/Ultra Jumpless. It would probably be a minimum challenge, but would still be cool to watch.
Luigi has sinned
This man deserves an award when he finishes this challenge. For now the best we can do is sub or hit the like button so please at least give the video a like for this man’s efforts
Well, you shouldn't be disappointed. The first and the sixth shakings were forced. The second, third and fifth were possible with a propeller/mini, and the fourth could have been possible maybe with an exceptionally lucky bubble placement, or propeller/mini. Still, you did a good job, and i think that you shouldn't be worried or disappointed about things that can't be avoided. It is still a legit run. If you're worried about the rules, you can use this:"shaking is allowed, only when it's forced (i.e. you can't avoid doing that in any possible way)"
I would love to see a mostly optimized, any% compiled run of this challenge, just to cap it off
And to show how much you have learned over the course of the challenge when it comes to bubble manip and such things
While you've technically broken the rules you set at the beginning, personally I think the spirit of the challenge is still perfectly alive. Spinning is normally banned, I assume, because it allows you to extend the length of time you're in the air, move the bubbles around, and most egregiously, use propeller mushroom. The first two would generally make most levels much easier, and the latter would completely destroy the entire challenge and basically defeat the point. Using the screws, for all intents and purposes, is not a jump, a height extender, a movement option, or really anything that in any way breaks the spirit of the challenge. It just so happens to be controlled by shaking the controller. I understand your frustration, and if you need additional stipulations to make it more satisfying for you, I understand. Personally though I don't think there's even a need for that. I look forward to the finale!
Like many people have said, the shakes were completely fair because the shake wasn’t used to gain height. It’s still a true jumpless, because no jumping was used here.
technically he still didn't jump !
Guess you just have to make an exception for this level. Bummer though.
i kind of want to see ultra jumpless nsmbu next, as far as i know theres nothing to screw you over in that one
nvm 1-2 is impossible ultra jumpless lmfao
(it is possible in true jumpless tho i think)
I like how Luigi was immediately punished for breaking the rules.
sacrifices must be made
It's so sad that there's no way to beat this level in this challenge. Stupid screws! I have to say though, I love the use of back and forth ground pounds in the boss fight to keep everyone in motion.
Just one more level and you’ll be able to do an official New Super Mario Bros Wii Jumpless speedrun!
As Luigiu was the first to do the illegal spin, he sufferers 13 deaths
I think killing the player that committed the crime of shaking on the screw is a fair compromise.
I think after you beat the final boss you should go back and play all of the other levels as well!
Congratulations big man, you got 1 more level to go! I've been with this challenge since the beginning, and I'm kinda sad to see it go, but it's been a great journey :')
I think changing "no shaking" to "shaking only when prompted", and changing "no mini mushroom" to "no mini or propeller" would be a nice solution
Compared to a lot of jumpless challenges, I would still consider this a fair success. Amazing work as always Adeal
One level... One level that's fully, 100% mandatory AND fully impossible (assuming 8-called castle is possible) that's gotta sting.
One. More. Level.
What about "If shaking doesn't affect the character's height, then it's allowed"?
Another great video, by the way!
That means screw mushrooms are not allowed?
I've thought about it as well... It would allow picking up people though, which really changes this challenge to the core
@@adealtas Changing the rules to allow characters to pick up other characters during the finale is not a wise decision, so I think we just accept it and if I remember there is no motion controls in the final level.
@@adealtas then how about "(...) changes any character's height(...)"?
@@adealtas picking up a character changes his height, so it should be fine
Why not something like “shaking only allowed if you gain no height”?
This series has been incredible and your achievement is remarkable! Looking forward to the finale!
6:05 my heart stopped when i saw the first second of the cutscene I didnt remember it that well so when I saw the little steps behind peach I thought the characters were going to be forced to jump up them in the cutscene but luckily they didnt
my suggestion is "No A, B, or shaking if it affects height and/or vertical velocity."
So, any inputs are allowed, but A, B, and shaking would only be allowed when they wouldn't affect height. So spin-jumping is banned, and so is shaking in a bubble (as it affects vertical velocity), but spinning on a screw doesn't, *unless* it's an elevator. Spinning in midair to stall is also still banned (if it's in Wii, don't remember), as it affects vertical velocity.
This has the benefit of allowing the challenge to be active outside of levels too, as hitting A or B doesn't affect height very often on the world map.
P.S. The wording of the rule assumes there is only one character. If an input to Luigi affects the height of Mario, then it doesn't break the rule. I'd append "of any character" to the end if you don't want this, since it might make grabbing a viable option.
Rule suggestion: No motion controls that gain altitude or distance. That would ban shaking in a bubble (gains altitude on screen), on the floor (that one is obvious why) and also bans lifting up other players, seeing how they gain altitude with that movement. It would also ban the midair spins. It would just apply on screws.
To me, this doesn't violate the version of the challenge that _I_ care about. I could not care less whether you press A or 2 for menuing, or not. Similarly, I could not care less if you use the motion controls in a way that 1) is done while grounded and does not remove anyone from the ground, and 2) does not affect anyone's vertical motion in any way.
Yes, that does mean my version would allow for picking up items. I don't think there is any clean ruleset that allows spinning on screws but bans that. (You can still choose not to pick up items, of course.) Either of my rules would still ban picking up players, although maybe allowing it wouldn't trivialize things either? (Also I'd be very interested in 5-T with player grabs, if that's sufficient to make it possible.)
I don't love the gears that move you horizontally at 3:46 at 4:04 , they're the only thing in this video that actually gives me some doubt. But they don't violate the two versions of the rule that I said above.
I think I don't like the "can use motion controls when there is a prompt on screen" idea, though. That is way too distant from the spirit of the challenge, and leads to something that LOOKS far more arbitrary (even though it's easily defined).
the boss fight was really cool & satisfying
An idea I have is only shaking if it directly affects/puts a player in the air. Kind of hard to define, which is a problem, but it basically bans spin jumps, player throwing, and bubble moving because they put players in the air or move players in the air, while screw using and item pickups are allowed because they don’t directly put a player into the air. It seems like a goos solution but it's hard to define and might have a lot of loopholes.
I think that's an intereting solution: shaking is allowed as long as the players are on the ground and stay on the ground, but it still allows picking up ice blocks and stuff like that, but only if all the players are on the ground which sound a bit stupid tbh.
I would allow “motion controls are allowed if used on a object (so screws and those tilt things in 1-2)
Sad to see it end here. Love that Bowser Jr. Fight though!
I think that maybe the first screw underneath the ship could be bypassed if you managed to kill all but one and then run and bounce off all three bubbles. The only problem is that it probably isn't possible to get the bubbles lined up right. These screws really screwed :) up the challenge.
I've really enjoyed the run and while I don't agree that this breaks the rules of no jumping, I understand where you're coming from and respect your insistence on sticking to the initial four rules you defined. This did give me an idea of minimum a presses 100% (similar to the ABC challenge for SM64). Idk how trivial or even possible it'd be, but I'd certainly watch it! In the meantime can't wait to see the end of this challenge!!
Well, simply spinning isn't _technically_ jumping. I say it's a win!
I have to pay my respects to you for acknowledging the issues, as opposed to when challenge runners change the rules on the fly and say “actually it is possible”.
Very unfortunate that this is how it went, but if you’re up for it, I’d love to see how many other levels you could beat in this fashion!
Yeah, that is actually what bothers me with most challenge youtubers, is that they'll decide arbitrarily what actions count or doesn't count in the challenge.
I think I'd rather accept defeat for this one, and I think that's okay :)
Not every story has to end in the best way, and not every challenge has to be possible. And that's why they are so entertaining in my opinion.
@@adealtas Ahh, thanks for your response! For the choice of calling it quits um, no worries! This was a great ride, and it was a delight to watch these videos every week :>
honestly at this point youd think they could just walk across all the bodies that have been thrown into the pit
Fun fact: in the old webcomic series Brawl in the Family, this is how Mario crossed a gap for some reason.
I wonder if there's some "minimum motion controls" definition here, in the style of "minimum B presses": any speedrun with less motion input is better than a run with more. I can think of a couple of ways of defining "less motion" which might be worth trying:
- Number of frames where the accelerometer is not a specific constant neutral value, or where the sensor bar is in view. (Could need some anti-glitch fine print to also constrain inputs to physically realistic numbers.)
- Number of instances of a specific defined "screw activation" motion input sequence, with all other motion controls disallowed. Ideally, the sequence would activate the screws but be minimally useful elsewhere. (Longshot: Are there any motion inputs that "spin" the screws but do not count as shakes for bubbles etc? Like rolling the remote with it pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar?)
- Minimum sum of squares of all accelerometer changes? Roughly equivalent to minimum total magnitude^2 of force or torque applied to the controller. ("Roughly" because I believe torques and linear forces are ambiguous with only accelerometer data, but close enough.) The idea here is that (I believe) this is what one would use for a score or "loss function" if you tried to autonomously optimize away the motion controls. I think its properties would match people's intuitions well, but a technical explanation of how the definition works might be difficult. But that doesn't stop the half-presses in "minimum B presses"!
i find that the TAS is still compelling as a minimum jumps run, even if the minimum is 5 or so rather than the ideal 0.
someone else in the comments suggested a wording of not using any of the barred inputs to directly make any player gain height, which allows screws while disallowing spin jumps, bubble shaking, picking one another up, etc. i suppose if there was a screw that lifted one or more players up, then that's ambiguous, but the screws only ever directly influence the environment rather than the players as far as i'm aware.
regardless, i still find your work to be an elegant piece of art. thank you
I'd say probably the best rule is to allow it if it's to operate part of the level like screws or the tilting platforms. Don't allow it if it's for movement.
I don't know if anyone else has suggested but I think shaking should be allowed if and only if it does not do one of the following: generate hight, bubbles, pick up blocks, increase air time, and or to catch/through players. I'm not sure if this restricts it to only screws but at the least it maintains the goal of the run.
You should also try every level in the game to demonstrate just how much of the game can be done, if a level cannot be done the minimum should be noted and considered not possible with current stats. There very might well be some undiscovered bug, but you might have to hunt for people with technical knowledge on new super mario bros wii to help you on that.