Young Griff: Fleshed out character or plot device? | ASOIAF Theory & Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- 🤔 *The Importance (or Lack Thereof) of Young Griff in ASOIAF*
📖 *Chapters:*
- *00:00* Intro
- *00:22* The Baby-Swapping Conundrum
- *03:59* The Return of the Alleged Dead Royal Kid is a Trope - Real Life fAegon
- *09:50* Side Publications’ Dates - Blackfyres
- *11:38* Young Griff as a Plot Device
- *13:36* Outro
📚 *Sources:*
- A Song of Ice and Fire book series
- The World of Ice and Fire
- Fire & Blood
- The Hedge Knight Novels
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🎨 *Art Credits:*
- Art Credited on Screen
- Clips from HBO's Histories & Lore
- Sigils & Maps from A Wiki Of Ice And Fire
🔍 *Keywords:*
#asongoficeandfire #asoiaf #awoiaf #aegontargaryen #gameofthrones #got #YoungGriff #HouseBlackfyre #HouseTargaryen #JonConnington #IllyrioMopatis #Varys #RhaegarTargaryen #EliaMartell
Όποιος κατάλαβε το ΚΑΚΙΣΤΟ αστείο με την Αναστασία...Συγχαρητήρια!
Επίσης, γερνάμε. 
Развлечения
Edit: to get the POV thing out of the way. We knew Robb's personality, we saw it. We knew about Euron's character and personality BEFORE we even saw him (in 3 lines in clash we got almost everything for him), same for LF and Varys. Hell Jayne Poole was more fleshed-out in three chapters in AGOT than Aegon in all of ADWD. Young Griff doesn't have a personality and the little things they say about him are in heavy contrast with what we saw.
Hello, so, what I didn’t say in the video, since it was a more laid-back video, Young Griff, is definitely a plot device. He is the reason JonCon will be back in Westeros and is our most important source of information about Greyscale also, BLACKFYRE will be back in Westeros since the sword is 99.9% under the protection of the Golden Company.
And this is why the real identity of the kid really doesn't matter.
Yeah, clearly a plot device...
The bear, the bear
You know considering how asoiaf dishes out karma he will be king for a time then Dany will kill him seeing him as a usurper. Ironically their original plan was to use viserys as a scapegoat to make aegon look good now it comes full circle Dany title slayer of lies makes sense now. Plus consider this they made sure viserys had know aid or guidance kept hi
Running and scared so he could not think of anything but survival all for this
I think he’s both the same with euron and Dany though she may live
Oh, Dany will be pissed with Illyrio more I think, she will not be happy and not gonna lie I don't fault her for that, Illyrio is a slimy slaver in all but name.
For Aegon I'm not 100% sure, bc if the kid didn't know maybe they could come to an agreement it's really 50-50 how things would go down, even though I feel Dany will find KL burned from the wildfire already, not gonna lie.
@@CompanyOfTheCat she may blame aegon for that then in her self righteousness kill him thinking she’s doing good the people reject her calling her a murder she reacts angered because of the fact from her perspective their siding with the guy who tried to kill them. I saved you and this city all your worthless lives
I mean Varys told us that power is "a mummers' trick" and that it resides where people belive it to reside in ACoK. He basically told us that Aegon's true bloodlines doesn't matter as long as people believe him to be the right boy.
This was the Eastern European history lesson I didn’t know I needed but I love it
There were more than one False Dmitry and that alone is kinda funny to me 😂
I would happily watch a 2 hour long (or longer) video of Faux Dmitirys haha 😆
I'm now picturing a very on the nose reference where fAegon jumps out of a window and breaks his leg. Or maybe Illyrio will. I would love to see a very pissed off Daenerys scaring Illyrio into defenestrating himself!
Yeah, the getting out of the window brought Tommen vibes from the series too and it's something that I can see it eaaasily.
Seeing a new CotC video dropping makes my day instantly better!
Same!!!
Aegon is definitely a Blackfyre he has Golden Company on his side
Love the False Dmitry comparison, in many ways it works a lot better than the English imposter kings like Perkin Warbeck that (f)Aegon is typically compared to. Given how much of a joke Warbeck was, but how very serious False Dmitry and (F)Aegon are
Idk if you know or not, but I didn't and I found it HILARIOUS. False Dmitry was the first because there were TWO MORE after his death and the second one had the wife of the first one saying "oh yeah he is my husband".
@@CompanyOfTheCat Yeah I heard of the other two but just that they existed not much,. It would be funny if the books did a great council at the end, and two more Aegons show up. "well one of is going to have to change!"
People be fighting against it, but you nailed it on the head XD
Nice section about false Dmitry as well! Def thing GRRM is tying to that and Warbeck.
Our noble boy would not be a king? Oh my!
I’ve been saying that Young Griff doesn’t matter for years
Solid analysis, 10/10
Company of the Cat!
Well, still a more logical theory than Tyrion Targaryen. everyone in this shit is a Targ, apparently.
it is known that everyone is one 😂
I really enjoy the historical parallel you break down along side plot/characters of ASOIAF. Thank you much for the wonderful content.❤
Great Video, thank you for uploading it, I hope you find the Problems with the Sound because I had to pause multiple times because I needed a Break, Unfortunately, I have a Migraine today (Weather related, thx climate change) so I am a little sensitive in terms of sound.
The only thing that matters is that Daenerys will burn King's Landing because she thinks Aegon has a better Claim. And just to be safe, most pretenders had very similar Names to those they pretended to be, there are exceptions, like Perkin Warbeck, for example, the most prominent Pretender for Anastasia had the name Ana, which is ONE of many diminutive for Anastasia. So even if he is a Blackfyre, he could still have the Name Aegon. In the Show "Aegon" was the name the that was given to Jon and we all know which role Jon had to fill in the last Seasons, being the Plotdevice to make Daenerys Crazy and kill her.
In Case of that sword Blackfyre, I am not sure that Sword stayed in Essos when Aegor Rivers came back for the other Blackfyre Rebellions. I mean who will know how Blackfyre looks like after it disappeared for 100 years? Furthermore, we know that Blackfyre was the Sword of Kings and in the third Blackfyre Rebellion, Bittersteel came back after crowning, Haegon I. of House Blackfyre Bittersteel took his halfbrother's sword Blackfyre with him when he fled Essos in the first time. Refused to support Daemon II., but crowned the fourthborn Son of his Halfbrother Daemon. So the Man who carried Blackfyre with him to Essos crowns a Man, so most likely he gave him Blackfyre too and very interestingly we are told that Haegon I. was killed after he surrendered and gave up his Sword. Would be nice to know who was there when he gave up his Sword because I think there was a Mormont.
My Theory is: One of House Mormonts Women disguised as a Man (honestly we see how Brienne needed to take off her Helmet and only than she was recognized, so I doubt the relatively Menly looking women from Bear Island would be recognized by Westeros Men as female if they didn't saw her Breasts) was one of the People who captured Haegon and witnessed how he was killed. She took his Sword, the Sword of King's Blackfyre and fled the Battlefield. A Battlefield is one big mess, one Warrior missing, no big deal probably one of the unrecognizable People who came under the Hooves of the Cavalry. So the People around her wouldn't be that much surprised if she vanished (speaking of other Food-Soldiers and maybe Knights) They would search for Blackfyre, I have no doubts about that. That Bittersteel would give the Sword of Kings to Haegon when he was Crowned, it would make some sense. Also, it would make sense for Bloodraven and the three Targaryen-Prince's who participated in that Rebellion not to mention that they had Blackfyre in their Hands and lost it. If they did, they probably told King Aerys I. that they assume that someone stole Blackfyre from the Battlefield. Maybe they told him of this Mormont Warrior who probably took it, just to discover that this Lord Mormont had only Daughters or something similar. Yes, I know that would mean Lord Commander Mormont lied to Jon when he told him about the Ancestral Sword of House Mormont, but I find it highly unlikely that a House that is constantly described as one of the oldest and poorest Houses of the North, could get their hands on a Valyrian Steel Bastard Sword (what a coincidence that Blackfyre is also a Bastard Sword) and that without some thievery or trickery. Disguising a Sword is no big deal, Lord Commander Mormont changed the appearance of Longclaw in a matter of Days. Also according to my Theory, Bloodraven and the Targaryen Prince's who commanded the forces searched for a Man with a Valyrian Steel Sword in his possession, not a Woman. All a female Warrior disguised as a Man would have to do, to successfully flee the Battlefield is to be a Woman again and she would travel relatively safely.
So to make it short: Aegon will get a Sword, a Bastard Sword that is called Blackfyre. But honestly, it could also be Brightroar, the ancestral Valyrian Steel Sword of House Lannister, which was lost when one Leader of the house sailed to the Ruins of Valyria, shortly after its doom. Tyrion even mentions that one of his Uncles sailed to the Ruins to find that Sword but never returned. Yes, Brightroar is a great sword, but as we see with Ice the ancestral Sword of House Stark, Valyrian Steel can be reforged into something else. So Tyrion, as Daenerys's advisor, could argue that neither is Aegon who he says he is nor is that Sword Blackfyre. Honestly, no one could say he is wrong, because no one knows what Blackfyre looked like, it is lost for 100 years now.
Yeah, I think it was friction on my microphone wire.
I hope you will get better soon!
@@CompanyOfTheCat Thank you, I have a problem with the Weather, the moment the Weather is relatively stable my Migraine stops for good, but Seasons like Spring and autumn are very difficult.
Today I have a question about your Timeline because I rewatched the Video and was confused. Eddard states in his memories in 2 of his Chapters that Aegon was an infant and only born a few months before the sack of King's Landing.
So I don't think that Aegon is who he says he is, but that he believes that he is who he says he is because as you mentioned Aegon doesn't matter, he is a plot device to bring Jon Connigton to Westeros and to kick off Daenerys's downward spiral to become the Daughter of her Father in a more literal Sense, but I think the vague and uncertain Age of that Baby was intentional (especially with the fact that we don't get to know his accurate Date of Birth, just that it happened on Dragonstone with Rhaegar there [although given the Fact we only see that information during a drugged vision of Daenerys that's questionable])
So why was the Baby so small that Eddard thought it was only born a few months before the sack of Kings Landing? So I came to the idea that maybe Baby Aegon died in the Crib and they did hide this fact from the people, when Elia was ordered to come to King's Landing she took a different Baby with her, maybe one that wasn't blond? She hold to it because she was afraid someone would notice it and she would be tortured to get to know where the right Baby was. After her death, when Tywin saw the Baby he realized that the Baby wasn't Aegon and ordered the Mountain to smash the head so that nobody would know the difference. Tywin wanted Robert to marry his Daugther and he didn't know the fate of Lyanna, who was still alive by that point and presumingly Roberts's Big and only Love (we know that is not true but that's what we were told by Ned and him) Tywin used the dead Bodies of Elia and her children to get Robert to agree to a marriage with his Daughter before anyone would find Lyanna. What do you think?
Loved the vid very good points. Which is hard to say coz i love all the baby swaps haha. However i disagree about the POV chapters being relevant. GRRM doesnt give the smart string pullers a chapter like Varys Baelish Doran ect, maybe why Young Griff doesnt have one. End of the day doesnt matter whos real haha just need to be blond but mainly have the biggest army haha fun to talk about though
As I said in some other comments, what I meant is that he doesn't have a pov and we also don't learn anything about him at all personality or character wise.
Euron doesn't not have a pov, but we knew his deal, personality and character two books before his appearance. Jayne Poole was better fleshed out in the first 5 chapters of AGOT than YG in the entire ADWD.
Glad you liked the video!
Amazing comparison!
I think you left out the most pressing piece of evidence against him being real. It’d absolutely ruin half the plot. Varys ruining Rheagar’s Harrenhal plans, the entire book 1 Dothraki Arc. Him being real would actually ruin the books.
Yes, you are right!
In general, it doesn't make sense for him to be the real one. There are other great videos about it, my take was mostly even if he is, does he really matter we know nothing about him, I knew more about Jayne Pool from the first chapters of AGOT, than I got about Aegon in a whole-ass book. The main reason I made the is that the "The heir is not dead it was another kid that got killed/executed" is a trope as old as time and we don't talk about it a lot.
Plus, it was me rambling until the squishers are ready :P
You are both so right! Young Griff being fake is, on the other hand, perfect in line with the theme of the books. The Iron Throne is a false price. Lords fighting over it brings only destruction, suffering and death. It is always worst for the poor, women and children especially. In the end the powerplayers as well.
... and that bloodlines are not the best way to decide a leader.
If it turns out that that Aegon VI is nothing but a pisswater prince, that hammers home the point home even further. Maybe Varys and Illyro is playing the Golden Company as well. Telling them that Young Griff is ACTUALLY a Blackfire.
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."
I mean someone is a false dragon and we do not have many choices
Oh man Dmitry Ivanovich is such a good story, but now that you compare him to “Aegon” it’s too perfect
Faegon is one of those things where it seems so obvious he’s a fake that I feel like he isn’t. Then I think that’s what Grrm wants me to think and that he’s fake. Then I go back to the first thought, and this goes on and on in my head😅
😂
Roflmao με την Αναστασία του Μega
ΝΑΙ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΤΟ ΚΑΤΑΛΑΒΕ! Μαι τζομπ χιαρ ιζ νταν
At this point in the story, the biggest plot twist will be if Young Griff is a random kid from Essos that the Golden Company is trying to turn into king of Westeros 😂
The biggest plot twist would be if he is Aegon fr😂
To be fair to Aegon, he threw one tantrum after being riled up by Tyrion Lannister, who is extremely well versed in how to anger full-grown adults, let alone teenagers who aren’t as in control of their emotions. Tyrion does the same thing in agots to Jon where he gets provoked to the point Ghost knocks Tyrion down and Jon doesn’t initially want to let the dwarf up. He constantly riles Joffrey despite that being a bad idea, and he’ll probably rile Daenerys just the same.
Aegon is also the sole reason Tyrion wasn’t left to drown in the Rhoyne by those on the shy maid since he ordered Tyrion be rescued.
Aegon doesn’t come across to me like the tyrant and he seems to genuinely believe what Varys and Illyrio have been selling to everyone. So if Aegon dies and it isn’t going to be to one of Dany’s dragons, then I could easily see him killing himself if he ever discovers the truth about his entire life being a lie.
Ehm if when angry you are compared to 13 years old, entitled, cruel Joff, things are not good in my books. The way he talks about himself and the way he undermines Dany is not it, even when Tyrion was not prodding him, he was getting pissed and annoyed with stuff when they didn't agree with what he wanted. YG thinks he is Aegon so he is around 18, you don't act like that at 18, especially in this era, idk, the kid looks kinda entitled, and bratty and not the "nobler lad". In no shade, shape, or form, even if annoyed, Daenerys would act like that, we are talking about the person that people spat on her face and was cool as a cucumber, even if annoyed being this entitled and sh*tty is a hard doubt for me.
The only reason I struggle to fully support this theory is Varys telling Kevan about the baby swap. At the time Kevan is actively dying, and if Varys feels comfortable killing him then he has to feel comfortable that he isn't going to be discovered, so what is the point in him telling Kevan about the baby swap when he is dying and no one is around to hear/spread rumors about Aegon's supposed survival? There is no reason to lie to a person who will be dead before he can tell anyone else the story.
The thing is Varys is Varys, and he knows that even walls have ears in the Red Keep and even people from his side should stay believing in this scheme, to me this looks like a very solid reason to NOT say anything revealing the plan, bc you don't know who might get a hold of this information. The actual holes of the plan are way more serious than this, IMO. I don't know.
Edit: I went to look for the part in the book. He never said the plan, he said just a name, for all we know the kid might as well be named Aegon. Kevan said, not it is impossible and Varys said he is here and then started gashing about him, he never said how he was saved or anything close to the story they said to Tyrion.
*Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”
“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”
“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since
before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”*
12:45 This doesn't contradict Griff being Aegon at all, a mummner's dragon is still a dragon or would be something else completely. Viserys and Dany were mummers dragons too, they were puppets being moved around in the plots of Illyrio and Viserys, but Dany's decision to remain in Meereen and to expel Jorah from her service cut her off from those maneuvering her poles. We know that Young Griff is likewise going off script, as it was clearly intended for him to link up with Dany and join their forces, but Aegon scraps that plan by acting on Tyrion's advise and invading Westeros without Dany's assistance.
pretty much my conclusion is what I said in the end.
Personally, I don't think the guy is Aegon (everything is so fishy and constructed that hits differently from every other storyline in the series to the point he looks fake, again, at least to me). Either way, even if he is a Targ, he doesn't matter that much. He doesn't have a personality he is pretty much a tool. Even other characters without povs have a personality (we knew pretty much Euron's personality and character before we saw him,) he doesn't, people project their emotions and ambitions onto him, for various reasons. And the personality they try to push on us, it's definitely not the case, from the way he acts and talks at least he is not the noble youth they present.
@@CompanyOfTheCat I addressed this in a separate comment, but "doesn't have a personality" doesn't make sense as a mark against him, when we only had a few chapters with him in a single book. We'll definitely learn more with two POV characters in Arianne and JonCon being close to him, as compared to the 4 chapters in which we KNEW he was Aegon, and the 6 chapters total that we actually see him in. There's going to be two more, incredible long books to go, and plenty of time to learn more of his character.
Illyrio + Serra Blackfyre = Aegon
13:25 We never got POVs for Robb Stark, Jeor Mormont, Joffrey Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Beric Dondarrion, Lysa Arryn, Petyr Baelish and the vast majority of the characters in this story. That doesn't make them empty vessels, nor does it mean they are unimportant or do not matter to the plot. If the Aegon = fAegon theory is true, then there would be no point to his having a POV at all, because we already have a character who is not who he says he is: Jon Snow.
Yes, and we saw them have a personality. Can you tell me about Young Griff's? what do we get about the guy? Because for sure we knew way more about Euron from the 2 lines 2 books before his appearance than we get to learn about YG from the POV's of 2 different people. This is the point I'm trying to pass not if having a POV or not makes you important.
He is very similar to Rickon actually. He exists.
Twow is gonna be longggggg
@@antmontgomery4060 It's gonna be yuuuuuge
10:35 Except we know that the Golden Company are not virulently anti-Targaryen by the time of ADWD, Tristan Rivers tells us that the Company was supposed to invade Westeros with Viserys, then with Daenaerys, and she was still to be joining them alongside Young Griff. The Company was clearly willing to support Targaryens as they were already tied into two previous plans to seat Targaryens on the Iron Throne, organized by Illyrio and Varys.
Yet they laughed at viserys when he tried to recruit them ? I feel they were only targ followers if the head of that campaign was aegon who maybe a blackfyre use the targ name but promote the black dragon
Tristan said this: Which plan? The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns?
Which is enough evidence that Aegon was not always the plan so again fishy, if he was the real heir why do all this? Illyrio and Varys want to have control over Westeros for some reason and their plans change all the time. The whole split of the kids was a weird decision if they were indeed Targaryen supporters, lets's not forget that for some reason Varys went to Aerys. They have something on their mind, way before Aegon was even born, that pretty sure not a lot of people know, and I doubt all the soldiers of the company are aware. There must be a reason why the upper people of the company are doing whatever Illyrio suggests and it seems that it's not only the money. Triston is not a very high-ranking member, yes he has some power but he doesn't take decisions.
@@CompanyOfTheCat someone compared Varys and d illyloria to baron hakannion from dune I think if we see them from that perspective it may help instead of seeing them as two man trying to avenge a lost love one dying request of making a boy king of Westeros
@@CompanyOfTheCat I think people wanna use house Targaryen to make their ambitions come true then diehard them while also getting revenge on the targs via Dany and viserys for the sins of those that came before them. Theirs no greater plan Varys a d the cheesemonger are just petty asswholes. It’s the same with dorne who wanna avenge Elia and her kids but don’t really wanna help the remaining targs but use them like in the show s later season we see this with the alliances Dany has .
@@CompanyOfTheCat Rhaegar's death meant Viserys was heir, and Viserys was older than Aegon, so it makes sense they would go with the one who had the better claim at first. Once he dies, Dany and Aegon would be their next best bets, since they needed to marry Quentyn AND Arianne as part of the plan with the Martells. But the fact that the 'anti-Targaryen' Golden Company was involved in these plans at all undermines the assertion. If they were truly anti-Targaryen, they wouldn't be back any of those plans. There's also the fact that the GC is no longer just a rallying point for Blackfyre exiles, they've been around for decades and have seen many Westerosi and Essosi come through their ranks.
0:41 TYRION describes him as 15-16, but we know Tyrion is a terrible judge of age based on appearance; he though Jon was 12, but he was actually 14
1:34 Kevan Lannister is the one who notes that the babe's face was an unrecogizable horror, save for a few fair hairs, and that everyone took Tywin at his word. It's still a swap, Varys exchanging the piss-water prince for Aegon
2:43 The answer here is simple: She should not have feared for her or her own daughter's safety; Elia's husband was dead and she was incapable of having anymore children as far as we know, while Rhaenys was a girl and a Dornish-looking one at that. Only Aegon had the chance of serving as a rallying point for further resistance, while Elia and Rhaenys could still have been useful hostages given that the war wasn't even close to being over. Ned had yet to march on Storm's End, the duel at the Tower of Joy was not yet fought, the Ironborn were raiding the Westerlands, and Stannis had yet to be ordered to besiege Dragonstone. Had it been anyone else taking the city, Aegon is probably killed but Rhaenys and Elia would be kept as hostages; but this was TYWIN we're talking about, and this was almost certainly his way of getting back at the Martells for spoiling his plot to marry Cersei to Rhaegar.
4:00 I don't see how Illyrio and Varys' waiting a few years before approaching Jon discredits Aegon; even allowing for their need to protect THREE fugitive Targaryens from those who would seek to harm them, they would have wanted to wait surveil Connington before approaching him, to make sure that he didn't change his mind or was approached by spies of the Crown and turned coat. It was going to take them years anyways to put together a workable plan, and it would be even longer before the children could come of age and be useful in their roles, neither Illyrio nor Varys was in any sort of rush.
4:13 The issue with the trop argument is that we know that George LOVES to subvert tropes, and doing so in the case of Aegon makes the story infinitely more interesting. Aegon as Faegon literally just recycles an existing trope and turns his character into another lay-up for Dany and Jon; Aegon being eho he says he is creates conflict for both Jon AND Dany, because it forces Dany to choose between embracing the only family she has left or taking wht she's always wanted for herself. For Jon, who has already rejected Winterfell as it rightfully belongs to his 'half-siblings' and even dreams about the crypts telling him that 'Winterfell is not his place,' Aegon being who he says he is gives him a brother that he can try to bond with, and who's potential conflict with Dany forces him into another dilemma like he faced with Robb's declaration of war. Also consider that Bran will likely bring Dark Sister with him when he escapes from Bloodraven, while Aegon will almost certainly have received Blackfyre for his role in taking Storm's End...
True, but puberty hits guys hard at around 15, unlike girls who normally have the big change around 13. 19 with 15 is way off even for Tyrion, plus the story still doesn't make much sense. A 12 and 14 look way more similar than a 15-year-old guy with a 19 one. And the fact that Illyrio and Varys waited years to approach him, doesn't help their case.
@@CompanyOfTheCat He was born in late 281 or early 282, and Tyrion meets him in 300 making Tyrion's estimate of his age only 2-3 years off, similar to his estimate of Jon's age. Boys begin pubert around ages 12-14, so Jon would have been in the process at the time Tyrion saw him, and Tyrion would necessarily be taking puberty into account for Griff if he already believed he was 15 or 16.
EDIT: Messed up my dates by a year, Tyrion's estimate is still only off by 2-3 years, and Aegon would have been in puberty or finished it either way.
The big change for boys is around 14-15 like girls begin around 9-11 but the big change is around 13. The dude should have been 19 and everything else around him have plot holes. If everything was ok and this was the only thing it would make sense, but the whole story is fishy AS HELL.
I mean it's Varys ad Illyrio NOT the most trustworthy people I would say. And the fact that he came in the 5th book, without a pov, makes him kinda irrelevant, even if he is a Targ even tho I really think he isn't, not gonna lie.
@@CompanyOfTheCat The appendix of ADWD describes Young Griff as "a blue haired lad of eighteen years," so his age isn't too far out for Tyrion's miscalculation. And if not having a POV and being introduced late is a mark against a character, where does that leave Euron, or the Lords Declarant, or the Hightowers? Euron got introduced one book earlier than Griff and probably isn't going to be alive at the end of TWOW, unlike Griff. But he's clearly important regardless, as are the Lords of the Vale who we'll only really get to know in TWOW, same with the Hightowers.
We talk in 45 different comments and I think it's hilarious at this point 😂
We are funny like that
12:00 If Aegon is an unimportant character,. who does not matter to the story, then George could easily have had Grey Scale pass into Westeros via Daenerys (whose entire army will be arriving from the east) or find a way for Shireen's Greyscale to infect the Wildlings, or literally any other ways that would not involve having to come up with a plot that hinges on the existence of an unimportant character that doesn't matter. George is an admitted gardener in his style of writing and constructing plots, the idea that he would assign a POV to a character who's own plotline has massive implications for the characters of Jon and Dany, just to have a way of getting a highly infectious plague to Westeros, makes no sense.
That I think is that we did need to have GC in the game and I don't see them ripping the panties to help other Targs, they said yes only to Aegon and this is it, they laughed at Viserys. In any case, it seems like they have blackfyre and it's something more than useful at this point since 99.9% VS can kill Others.
@@CompanyOfTheCat They laughed at Viserys when he came to them as the beggar king, Tristan clearly refers to supporting Viserys when he and Dany were among the Dothraki, gathering an army that was supposed to join the Golden Company in their invasion. Viserys' death by Golden Shower meant that plan got scrubbed of course
This is the least convincing video I've seen from you so far. While I agree with you that Aegon is most likely Faegon, I don't think you've added much to the discussion or addressed the best arguments otherwise.
Personally, the "in our real world" arguments drawing from actual history are always the least convincing. Even if GRRM gets his ideas from here, there is no reason to believe he isn't intending to subvert the stories or themes. They just don't offer evidence of anything but themes, certainly not outcomes. Your historical comparisons are interesting, but I don't see them as argumentative.
In terms of the Blackfyres, arguments like GRRM wouldn't give us all this info about the Blackfyres just to make us wonder but then not have them centrally involved don't hold water either. Why not? I hear that you think this, but when you deliver it with your mock laughter it rings kind of hollow and sounds more like insecurity about the claim. He likes the story, it vastly enriches his world, or maybe even at some point considered going that way but now doesn't. It's just not actual evidence, IMO. We can see that he pushes lots of alternate themes and characters into Essos, so I just don't see it as absolutely having to go somewhere.
Why would JonCon, with his great knowledge of the Golden Company, never suspect that their easy adherence to Aegon and their ditching a contract for him not set off any alarms? The POV character in the best position to know they would never do this (if they in fact would not) somehow doesn't consider it? The explanation I've heard is that he is plenty convinced that the GC leadership just want lands in Westeros and don't care who delivers them. I don't recall if JonCon thinks this explicitly but I don't think he ponders it either way, which could just be a rare example of bad writing. But I kind of don't understand why GC would be loyal to Blackfyres after generations, rather than just oppostunists willing to back anyone who can successfully deliver them Westeros. This just isn't evidence.
Anyway I love your vids, even your snide laughter that seems intended to mock those you disagree with -- maybe because I largely agree with you haha, including re fAegon. But this one seemed almost like an afterthought just to take shots at people who see things differently, which doesn't feel worthwhile.
The thing is that it does matter, a lot, it matters to the narrative and this is the reason I made the video that way, even though it is definitely not the way I make videos in general, and probably why, unlike the rest it didn’t click with you as much.
Many times especially in this fandom (because I haven’t seen this happen on such a big scale with other fandoms) people come up with theories and treat the storylines kinda like they exist in their own universe and not in a single story. Narrative is important, many times theories can easily be explained or debunked by looking at the narrative and by applying Ockham’s Razor. The storyline of Aegon is a carbon copy of these impostors' stories, it is constructed so by numbers that is the first thing that I caught reading it. There is no “subverting expectations”, because there are no expectations created by this plot thread.
Having another Targaryen alive in a completely different place from the others that he introduced in the 5th book out of 7 and having a similar storyline to Daenerys with the exception that he was pampered as hell as we see and he doesn't do anything for himself, would be so lame story-wise. It doesn't work either as an antithesis or a foil to Daenerys because he came up way too late. It matters very much when a character is introduced. People complain about Euron being late, thus he isn’t gonna be a big threat, but people were talking about how scared they were of Euron since book 2, we learned about silence again in book 2. He was not late, he had character built “off-screen”.
The whole fAegon storyline falls flat, and to me at least, it always looked like GRRM wanted it to fall flat and have the story crafted with Aegon being pretty obvious that he isn't the real Aegon. And the GC again is a huge thing, because looking at the people from the GC in ADWD and what we learned about the GC, conveniently exactly before and after this book, matters otherwise is a stupid twist, and I will always disagree that GRRM loves twists, especially in this project. He does foreshadowing exceptionally well, and he never does “Ha, I outsmarted you” moves out of nowhere. The “Real Aegon” theory is one, that really doesn’t need many quotes to be debunked, because looking at the narrative as a whole is very easy to see that, it isn’t the case and the most important person in the crew is not even YG, but Jon Con.
Thanks for watching though😊
@@CompanyOfTheCat I don't disagree with you on any of what you addressed here, and again I appreciate the thorough response. I don't think you hit most of my actual points, but that's super ok. I'm not trying to engage you in some epic argument. I'd rather you make more vids than give me attention heh. I just wanted to share what turns me off about videos because I want your channel to grow and it's a data point, if maybe not even an important one or maybe overwhelmed by your positive feedback. All good.
I do agree it's important whether fAegon is important or far less so than most readers assume (than I assumed until recently). And I'll admit you have put a last nail in the Aegon coffin and convinced me further that he's a Blackfyre, but mostly due to your articulation of its impact on the storyline, and largely because of this reply, more so than the video.
You probably only repeated stuff that was in the vid but I could hear it better without the clutter of the GC argument (which I think is bunk and weird), the "real life" parallels argument (which I think GRRM would never be beholden to), and the dismissive tone. I admit I get resistant whenever a YTer laughs at a fan idea, even when I also dislike or disagree with that idea. I like that you laugh at the actual content and story points a lot, but not when you laugh at theories or fan analysis. Just seems misplaced and maybe insecure, and at twice your age I have a long history of never once seeing someone get convinced while being laughed at, fwiw.
But you're awesome and I'm going to watch all your videos. I mostly listen while working around the house, which is a bummer because I see you put a lot of work into visuals but someday I'll go back through and appreciate all that. Now that I'm synced up to your awesome accent I don't even need CC lol.
Very poor logic in this video. Amongst many other things you seem ignorant on in this video a character not being a pov meaning they are not important is complete bullcrap. So is Euron not important? Little finger? As for the baby swap thing to refuse the possibility of if happening at all in the past is very premature. Considering Dany clearly has holes in her childhood memory or are you choosing to ignore lemon Gate? Maybe griff being so young lines him up better with the tower of joy baby? Maybe Jon was the baby swap? Surely the daynes and cranogmen don't tell all these stories of neds past for no reason?
Euron has a character though, Aegon doesn't. We get a very precise picture of him and we see him WAY more than Young Griff. We can see his personality, he is an all-around character. Euron moves the storyline Aegon has a storyline moving around him.
(Edit: If you read the very few times Euron is mentioned in the first three books that he didn't appear we already have a full picture of him and his personality. We met Aegon and we still do not have one)
Also, all the storylines that make the whole story so complicated and create holes that would need this much explanation while we have only two books, sound very improbable. From the way, GRRM writes, at least from my experience with his work, whatever comes to play this late in the story is not as important.
Maybe it is just me, but GRRM doesn't do plot twists, he is building stories so all these theories are very poor with very little backup.
Holes and errors in danys past and memory like lemongate are not an argument for a switch though. She was to young to remember much and put things in context, visierys told stuff wrong and there absolutely is something fishy, but baby swap does not explain it. The house with the red door and bravos where different steps in her travel and it will be importent later concerning the screaming around her, all that can be valid without any there where 5 kids someone played switcheroo with...
@@CompanyOfTheCat l+r=j is a plottwist though like not surprising anyone anymore since we had time to analyse this story almost to death but it still is a plottwist, just a well build instead of a cheap gimiky one.
The thing with his writing is it is insane enough, that everything is kinda possible, like secre5 identities, resurrection, zombies and surviving walking into a fire.... But he never overuse them, some insane theories will be right, but not all and not simultaneously and most babyswap theories need for to many to unlikely things to be happening for me to belive them.
Like I totaly dig the idea, that stoneheart wants to revive robb, but I do not believe for anything of robb to be left to be revived and any attempt would have horrifying implications. It would fit cat and it would fit stoneheart, it is "reasonable" and there is no argument to be found why she should not. But while it sounds wild, it is very very simple, having alleras be the dead aegons assumed dead sister and fagon be aegon and dany being ashara and needs and Jon being rhegar and lyanna..... Way to converluted
Yes! They are plot twists because they are the least possible thing, but not the impossible. I doubt all the babies we have in the stories were changed with each other, what would this do for the story?
@@CompanyOfTheCat nothing, especially not with the main reason everyone guesses Jon's parentage to begin with was for how out of character it was for Ned to dishonor a woman.... And then people go of, ignoring the main drive of that secret identity of a kid argument in favor to hav him still have a kid, just not that one?! It does not make sense. How is it anylmore in his character to be danys father, then Jon's?!
I love me some wild theories but converted for the sake of it is not my taste nor what I think Grrm is writing shocking, very much, that's the drive of most of his plottwist, that you had not consider for him to go there, like danys walk into the fire while similar attempts of other tags utterly backfired, stoneheart, the red wedding... Not scoobidoo maskreveals