This case has devastated a lot of us in the UK. My brother was premature 36 years ago. He nearly died weighing just under 2lb and yet the wonderful doctors and nurses saved him. We were told he might struggle but no he fought and now he is a fit 6ft tall marathon runner. A miracle. I cannot fathom how anyone in the CARE profession could do this. Thank you for covering this x ❤💔 thinking of the hurting families x the tears came to me also with the AA Milne quote
I did work on a NICU unit in the states that hired new grads. You were put into the Phase 2, ready to discharge part of the unit. I took awhile to get to phase 1 with new admits. You were always with a trainer.
I gave birth to my son preterm. He spent 16 days in the NICU. I was there the entire time during lockdown. This story is heartbreaking 💔 there is so much to unpack! I never even thought for a second he would be hurt by the staff at the hospital!! 😢
I listen to all your podcasts, but I'm afraid I can't this time. This has really hit us hard in the UK. The fact she chose not to face her victims parents statements is just beyond despicable and cowardly. My heart goes out to all the families 😢
Lori Vallow in the United States, another murderess, wanted to leave the courtroom during testimony, but the Judge forced her to remain and listen ...'to face the music'. But I want to encourage you to listen to Dr. John, because it helps to understand the psychological aspect of this. It may help you.
Thank you for talking about this case. As a Patient Safety Nurse here in the States, this case has INFURIATED me. My heart breaks for the innocent and beautiful babies she murdered in cold blood, their families, and her dedicated and courageous co-workers who spoke up and reported her. The trust that is built between a nurse and her patient/family, and even coworkers is sacred, its sacrosanct. She heinously violated that trust in such an agregious way. I can't find the words to adequately say just how heartbreaking this case is to me. May God be with the families, her victims, and her coworkers.
@BostonSarah this case is indeed a major miscarriage of justice. Lucy Letby did not have a fair trial. In the case of Child G which they claimed was forced fed with milk. An infant who was born at 23 weeks gestation developed a projectile vomiting condition, immediately after being fed. These vomiting episodes were accompanied by moments of low blood oxygen levels (desaturations). It is reported that Lucy Letby fed the infant 45 ml of formula, breast milk and Gaviscon, however Dr Evans alleged that at the same time she also injected air into the infant’s stomach, via the nasogastric tube. Dr Evans claimed an estimated 100 ml of stomach contents was aspirated from Baby G and this was validation that Lucy Letby injected air and milk into the infant’s stomach, and she did so for the purposes of attempting to murder the infant. Dr. Evans also confirms that at around this time the infant’s C-reactive protein level had risen from 0 to 200. C-reactive protein is an immune response protein which is released by the liver upon infection, the increase in CRP is a strong indicator that she was experiencing an infection. As a consequence of the increased CRP the infant was prescribed additional antibiotics. There is strong evidence that excessive antibiotic usage in preterm deleterious to the development of the enteric nervous systems. Dr. Evans failed to demonstrate that the indicators of infectious disease, observed in Child G, were not causative for her presentation of desaturations and vomiting. In the case of Child F and Child L which they claimed insulin poisoning. Two of the infants were reported to have hypoglycemia, within the first few days of birth. Both infants were premature and they were both the result of separate twin pregnancies. Dr Evans claimed that Lucy Letby poisoned the infants with insulin, this claim was made on the basis of a single blood test for each child. The reason Dr Evans claims the blood test for insulin proves that Lucy Letby poisoned the infants is because they tested the concentration of insulin and C-peptide. C-peptide and insulin are produced from the same molecule, proinsulin, in an equal ratio. The blood test showed high insulin and very low C-peptide. This led to the faulty assumption that the insulin being measured must have been delivered exogenously. The discordance in the ratio of insulin to c-peptide was used as a basis to suggest that the insulin measured in the blood tests was delivered exogenously. There are a number of issues with this faulty reasoning. A blood test, such as the one used in this case, cannot be the only evidence used to make a determination of insulin poisoning. In neonates, especially premature neonates, it has been identified that the >70% of the insulin in the blood is actually proinsulin and its metabolites. Given that insulin is formed from proinsulin they share sequence similarity. This means that a blood test for insulin may also detect proinsulin and it will be misreported at insulin. There are numerous confounding variables that the expert witnesses fail to discuss or make the court aware of, which place serious doubt on the reliability of the insulin tests being used to infer that the infants were administered exogenous insulin. In the case of Child C, Dr Evans asserted that the infant died from Ms. Letby injecting air into the nasogastric tube. Child C was born with an air bubble in his stomach, which was observed on x-ray shortly after birth. This bubble worsened over time, and the description of the events that follow are suggestive of a condition termed PYLORIC ATRESIA. This condition occurs where there is a blockage in the stomach that prevents gastric emptying. Interestingly, Dr Gibbs made suggestions about a potential blockage but it is apparent there was little, or no, diagnostic work-up to identify what, if any, treatment should be given. PYLORIC ATRESIA is associated with significant mortality, especially where it is left untreated. Suggestions from the defense that the abdominal bloating occurred due to CPAP appear unfounded, given that abdominal bloating from CPAP typically does not occur until at least 4 days after treatment is initiated. However, the usage of CPAP may have worsened the condition, though the greatest issue was the failure to ascertain the cause of the black aspirates, and the associated gaseous formation in the gut and bowel. In the case of Child I, look how incompetent Dr. Gibbs was. He removed Child I from the ventilator at 12:45 am, despite that infant demonstrated signs of seizure activity (lip smacking, posturing), and she had repeated periods of apnea. After removing the infant from the ventilator, Dr. Gibbs left the ward and returned home. At 2:10 am, Child I was pronounced dead. Given that 85% of sudden infant deaths occur during the night time hours it is SHOCKING that an infant would be removed from a ventilator during the night, and when fewer clinical staff will be available to assist. Further, for extremely preterm neonates (
@BostonSarah they got the wrong person. Lucy Letby might be a narcissist but not a psychopath killer. CLAIM: The deaths of the 7 babies in this case were initially considered unexplained. TRUTH: Autopsies were performed after death for 6 of the babies, and a specific cause of death was listed for 5 of them. The coroner found a cause of death in 5 out of 7 of the alleged murder cases. Two of them appeared to be, in part, related to aggressive CPR, two appeared to be due to undiagnosed hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy and myocarditis, one of the infants received no autopsy, and the other infant was determined to have died due to prematurity. It is highly unusual for the cause of death to be altered years after the fact and using methodology that is not supported by the coroner’s office. CLAIM: The babies died from air embolism, which was determined after the fact by an expert witness. TRUTH: The expert witness was not a pathologist. Air embolism can only be determined at the time of death using specific tests, which were not performed. The air embolism hypothesis is confusing because it fails to explain why some children apparently perished and others did not, and it has not been supported by the minimal necessary measurements. Air embolism cannot be determined by imaging, and can only be determined soon after death, and requires the extraction of air from the circulatory system, and analysis of the composition of the air using gas chromatography. CLAIM: Lucy Letby attacked a baby who was born at 23 weeks gestation, causing injuries to the white matter of her brain. TRUTH: Very premature babies often have white matter injuries due to prematurity alone. Parechovirus and enterovirus infection can also cause white matter injuries. In at least one case, Lucy is blamed with causing white matter brain injury. This claim is utterly dishonest. The infant who experienced this brain injury was born at 23 weeks gestation, and white matter brain injury is associated with such early births. Further, there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that enterovirus and parechovirus infection has been linked to white matter brain injury in neonates, resulting in cerebral palsy. CLAIM: There was no evidence infection. TRUTH: The babies all showed many signs of viral infection, including changes to vital signs and poor feeding. CLAIM: Enterovirus is rare. TRUTH: There are many published reports of enterovirus outbreaks in the UK during 2015-16. In spring 2016, an outbreak was reported at a hospital a few hours away. At the time of the collapses and deaths of the infants, enterovirus and parechovirus had been reported in other hospitals. There is a history of outbreaks of these viruses in neonatal wards in hospitals around the world. They especially harm preterm infants who do not yet have a functioning immune system. It is reported that many parents of the infants were concerned that their ward had a virus (as was Lucy) and that Dr Gibbs denied this was so. To date we have seen no evidence to show they did any viral testing, and if they did what the results were. CLAIM: Blood tests prove that synthetic insulin was given to the babies. TRUTH: The presence of synthetic insulin cannot be established using the type of test that was performed. The testimony was false. The two claims of insulin poisoning are not supported by the testing conducted, and the infants (who are still alive and well) did not have dangerously low or dangerously high blood glucose levels for any period of time. There are many physiological reasons that could explain their low blood glucose during the whole period. In one of the two cases, assumptions are being made on the basis of one test taken at a single time point, clearly inconsistent with the other medical readings, and contravening the manufacturer’s own instructions for use. The report detailing the conclusions from that single test violates the code of practice of the forensic science regulator. Moreover, it appears that some numerical error has been made in the necessary calculation, resulting in an outcome which is physiologically impossible (or the person responsible did not know about the so-called “hook effect”). The mismatch between C-peptide and insulin concentration does not prove that the excess insulin found must have been synthetic insulin. There are many other biological explanations for a mismatch. No testing was done to determine the origin of the insulin. Similarly, there are many innocent explanations for the detection of some insulin in a Total Parenteral Nutrition (TPN) bag.
@@anni730 clearly most of the infant deaths were due to doctors’ negligence and malpractice and the rest were due to natural causes . It could happen to all nurses, being blamed for something they haven’t done. A nurse being used as a scapegoat, but doctors bear no responsibility at all. How appalling is that!
Not only did he have to write an apology but deliver it face to face and was questioned about it with her at the table, by the hospital managers. What the hospital administration did was despicable.
The Countess of Chester is my local hospital and I was visiting my (adult) son in there when the press descended when she was charged with the murders and attempted murders. I think there must be psychopathy in her mental makeup to commit such heinous crimes. Most of the nursing staff at the hospital are wonderful, in my opinion the hospital management are also culpable. Some of those babies’ deaths could have been prevented, if only the management had listened to - and respected the findings of - those highly qualified doctors who voiced their deep concerns. Thank you for your quality, well-considered channel.
She certainly has strong psychopathic and sadistic features. As an aside, roughly 40% of female serial homicide offenders work in health care, and they tend to gravitate towards the midnight shift.
There was a nurse here in the US that targeted the elderly. His name is Billy Chemirmir and he is suspected of killing at least 22 elderly patients in the exact same manner. The similarities between these 2 cases is uncanny. There were also Drs and Nurses for years that warned hospital officials and he was able to keep his license and move to several medical facilities for years. These people targeted some of our most vulnerable humans. Heart breaking
There's also Charlie Cullens in the US. He worked for decades. Multiple hospitals suspected something strange and just sent him off to the next one. I don't remember how many people he was convicted of killing, but it is estimated that he killed hundreds.
Seems like a lot of times when I hear about women doing awful things they are nurses. Of course there’s plenty of nurses that are great people I’m sure. Carlee Russell and Lindsay Clancy are both also nurses that have been in the news a lot the last few months.
Medical based killers chose that profession for the very reason they have access to the extremely vulnerable which tends to be the very young or very old. We need to do something to protect patients more
My son was born 8 weeks early and spent 6 weeks in the NICU. When he was born the Dr.s gave him less than a 30% chance of surviving. I spent every moment I could by his incubator. My son couldn’t cry because he was on a ventilator. He weighed 4 lbs when we brought him home . He is now 40 years old and has a child himself. All those Dr.s and nurses in that unit are so caring and knowledgeable. I’m so grateful for their care of my baby.
As a UK listener, I have struggled to watch this case as it unfolded. It is probably the most terrifying case I have ever heard and thank you both for covering it. My daughter spent her first few days in the Special Care Baby Unit when she was born and I relied on the doctors and nurses to make her better which they thankfully did. I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could hurt these little defenceless babies or inflict that level of pain on their families. There are no words that can comfort these parents and the loss they have experienced and it is a pain that has resonated throughout the world. In the UK we are blessed to have the NHS and dedicated, professional caring health care workers whom we all owe so much. To think that this sadistic monster infiltrated our health care system and carried out such depraved acts is so frightening. We use the NHS at our most vulnerable times, when we are ill, when our family and friends are ill and to think that this monster has undermined that trust and created such fear in people is horrendous. May all the beautiful little souls rest in peace and I hope that her survivors go on to thrive. Thoughts and prayers to the families for the inexplicable loss they have endured, may they find peace x
I'm a nurse. I am mortified by these stories. You feel such an intense sense of responsibility to your patients and their families. I can't imagine what that so called nurse was thinking. My heart goes out to the families of those precious babies.
All across the world people that hear this heinous, evil acts by this vile woman, are outraged. I am weeping and so extremely distressed for all the victims families, friends, and nation. You so remain in my prayers and thoughts. 🕊️
My twins were 24 weekers. Our oldest passed away shortly after birth. Our youngest twin spent 115 days in the NICU. We trusted the staff and they saved our daughters life so many times. The one constantly during that time was the competent staff. That was our one light. To think that a nurse would willfully inflict pain and devastate lives is unimaginable.
I lost both of my twins shortly after birth 10 minutes for Grace and 26 hours for Ava. Twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Born at 30 weeks 😢. I understand your loss. Can’t wait to see my girls in heaven one day.
This the very, very, very exception and we can not allow fear to cancel our faith…billions of babies are cared for loving, caring nurses and healthcare professionals.
We had 22 week old baby boys baby b was there for 2 month baby a passed away after 3 weeks I can’t even imagine they were 1 pound 6 and 1 pound 10 ounces so lil and helpless I have no words 😢😢
I have a friend who went through ivf several times before she and her partner could conceive. Her baby was born at 7 months and was in the nic-u for a year. She said that the nurses and doctors were incredibly kind. How horrific to think that this woman took these precious lives and in such cruel ways. My heart goes out to the parents.
On behalf of ethical nurses everywhere, this is not what or who we are, this is despicable. We are supposed to be the most trusted profession, yet there are evil doers among us. Sending apologies, love, peace, and prayers to all of those impacted by this horror.
As a patient in the NHS, I cannot praise enough the nurses and doctors who have taken care of me and my family over the years when we have needed them. They have been professional kind and caring. This monster is an outlier and it is sad that her actions may cause distrust on the truly amazing health care workers out there who do a difficult and tremendous job every day.
I’m so grateful to nurses in the NICU, that those who looked after our twins 18 years ago are still in my prayers to this day. Nurses are angels, and I think that’s why this is so difficult to comprehend that this has happened. 😢
I Couldn't be a nurse for this reason. I can't watch anyone or anything suffer. How do Humans stomach this. I honestly think Nursing takes a certain type of person. Death and pain day in day out has to have an effect on anyone. Desensitising.
Omg I’m honestly so sick of hearing nurses talk about themselves and how needed and great they are. I think doctors are more important, teachers are important, but we hear so much about them too, but nurses seem to be the real squeaky wheel of all occupations, constantly looking for affirmation and attention.
I had my daughter at a hospital within 25 miles away from the hospital. Lucy Letby worked at. The lengths the Dr's and nurses went to to save my daughters life was above and beyond. If not for these professionals my daughter would not be here today. These Dr and nurses are real life super hero's. It's discusting to think a few miles away there was a sick evil coward undoing the work these super hero's fight so hard to achieve. Lucy Letby is clearly sick in the head. Here in the u.k we also had Beverly Allett dubbed the Angel of Death. I have seen how hard the professionals on the neo natal wards work 1st hand. Letby and Allet are sick exceptions. In my opinion there is no worse crime. She will never be free again to hurt the most vulnerable within our society.
Molly coddling by parents and psychopathic parents are to blame look into her privileged upbringing. They'll be middle class psychopaths all 3 of them... I'm in the UK too. Look into the parents if you have not already I know lots of parents creating these psychopaths who are in their 20s now. Entitled sadists.narcissists.. And when the mask is challenged by non family members they will cruelly try to screw over the person who unmasked them or questioned their sanity and choices.
I think that calling her ‘sick in the head’ is too simplistic. She’s bad, not mad. If she was given the diagnosis of mentally unwell, she wouldn’t have been deemed fit for a trial, and would be placed in a psychiatric hospital rather than a prison.
@sarahtaylor7737 agreed that said how can anyone that is not sick in the head do such a thing? I personally think it is a combination of both. There are also different mental illnesses not all will deem a person unfit for trial. Only the ones were a person has no idea what they have done, and had no control over their actions. I understand we all think differently when it comes to mentally unwell.. I just can't see a sane normal person going round murdering babies..
My son was a premie and in NICU. He also had septicemia and had to have antibiotics (vancomycin) which took one hour to administer and was vein invasive so they had to switch veins each time it was administered. I was there early one morning and his dosage had not been given to him. I asked the nurse and she said she would "get to it." I waited ten minutes, still no dosage...I went into the hallway and called his pediatriatrician and told her what was happening. Exactly 40 minutes later (it takes 40 minutes to drive with no traffic) in walks my son's doctor, screaming at the top of her lungs...and when the nurse complained and backtalked, she fired her on the spot! The nurse said this doctor couldn't do that...this doctor called the hospital administrator and demanded he come over and fire the nurse..which he did. I did not remember this until this morning as I was listening to your podcast.
Thank you so so much for covering this. I’m from the UK and was a NICU QIS nurse for years at Cambridge. This is a case that breaks my heart. I can picture everything because of my background and I couldn’t ever get my head around how much occurred around her in a low level unit, I never had an incident like this in the 5 years I worked there. She is evil, I can’t imagine the lasting impact this will have, not only for the families but for staff and parents today who are in the NICU
Thanks so much for covering this guys 🙏🏻❤ It'd absolutely gut wrenching. My heart goes out to those poor parents. 😢 I'm so, so angry that she was not made to listen to the sentencing and victim impact statements. It's outrageous.
Just wanted to add that as she bathed the baby (who had passed) she was mentioning to the mother about how the baby had enjoyed being bathed by Letby (when alive) & the mother said she was wishing Letby to shut up! That's struck me as very sadistic & cruel & also a demonstration of how she had to put hersekf in the centre of the trauma.
@@HiddenTrueCrime She took the hand and footprints of another of her victims, placed them in the memory box & suggested that they be made into a pendant. The mother wore that pendant until the police contacted her and told her of their investigation. She said that after that she realised that every memory she had of her child had been touched and polluted by their murderer. That too was sadism.
Thank you so much for covering this case. It’s hit us hard in the UK, it’s just utterly heartbreaking for everyone involved 💔 I wish we had better laws in the UK for criminals, capital punishment for the worst of the worst! Hoping one day we’ll be able to have cameras back in the court rooms to give the public full transparency, and i hope they do manage to change the not appearing for sentencing issue. It’s been a long 10 months following this case, I pray the families can somewhat close this chapter and continue being the strong, resilient amazing people that they are. RIP to all the beautiful angels and my heart goes out to the children who have suffered life changing injuries. I had my son in Sept 2015 and I can’t help but feel so emotional as my son is the same age as these poor kids. They should all be at school, growing into smart, intelligent little kids, having friends and family. Going on holidays and experiencing what it’s like to be carefree children 💔 😭 my heart hurts so bad 😢 Thank you John for your utterly professional opinions and insights , care and compassion. Take care
I am a NICU nurse. Even the most trustworthy nurse or doctor would immediately have several other nurses investigating what was going on. Where were the other nurses?
I've not heard much about the other nurses concens although you'd think they'd be the first to notice any issues, but several doctors went to management to raise concerns about her and were told to go away and apologise to her
I agree totally, this would have raised sooo many red flags as the NICU is a fluid team of professionals that must work together. I don’t understand how she even got away with these atrocities for so long.
As a nurse, this honestly breaks my heart. I cannot imagine acting on, let alone having thoughts, to MURDER newborn vulnerable babies. Just despicable... this is not who we are!
This is beyond words!! Thank you both for the surprise coverage of this story and ya’ll are much appreciated. The most fragile and vulnerable should be nurtured and cared never harmed in any manner! 💜🧡
Your unplanned lives come at the best times. When i cant sleep or like today overthinking things when my ADHD will definitely let me forget my problems and hyperfocus on this. You made all of us have to wonder 24 hours a day less about this all week. Every time some new type of crime or criminal comes up....we all just cannot wait to finally hear Dr. Babes take. Lets our minds stop wandering. Thank you. You are alway so on point, professional and comprehensive Lauren...this show doesn't go on without either of you. What a team.
There are no words.......Those parents will mourn the rest of their lives. I am just sickened by this. I lost a baby to meningitis. The grief was tremendous. I don't think I could have ever recovered knowing someone ( a health care professional!) intentionally killed my baby......
As a pediatric nurse for more than 28 years, this story breaks my heart and infuriates me at the same time! How can anyone harm or kill anyone, much less an innocent baby?!💔 Prayers for all the families affected and I hope this evil woman gets the help she needs. Otherwise, there is a special place in hell for what she’s done! 😞
It is unbelievably disgusting. What caused her to do it? Maybe she couldn’t stand the fact that these precious infants were the center of attention, that they were so important and she was not. She was serving them, but didn’t feel good enough (and sh always was good enough). She was always the center of attention, but not this time. The babies were. So, she hated that, and she must have hated them. Who could kill those dear little babies without hating them?
As a nurse I am just mortified! We had twins that weighed 15 ounces and 1# 1 oz in our unit. How could anyone do anything other than comfort the parents and do all you could for the babies?
I am a retired nurse, I can see your care and compassion, and your experience, this is absolutely heartbreaking for the families, I can’t fathom a nurse behaving this way.
I’ve recently subscribed to your channel as your compassion for the victims and Dr. John’s very thoughtful insights are exactly in line with how I feel these horrendous crimes should be handled in a responsible manner on UTube. Your mods are fantastic too. I tuned in ready but I knew once the details began that I could not stay. More power and grace to you both.
I have worked in the U.K. health system for many years .. one of the things that surprised me about this case is that Letby was very young when she started working in the NICU and started killing babies. Working in a NICU requires specialised skills that would be gained over more years of experience than she had at the time. Nurses generally progress into more specialised units - they generally don’t start working in a NICU straight out of nursing school. So it baffles me how she was deemed qualified enough to work there with that kind of responsibility, at such a young age. It suggests to me that she purposely targeted THE MOST vulnerable patients in any hospital (babies) and managed to convince/manipulate more senior and more experienced staff into believing that she should work in such an environment. In addition to the insulin and other methods that she used, her “niceness” and “friendly demeanour” applied manipulatively, were perhaps her most powerful weapons. Thank God for those senior doctors (Consultants) who raised the alarm and did not give up until justice was ultimately served.
The babies didn't slip away because care was not given. She intentionally inflicted murderous causes of death with selfish intentions for herself. Let's not offer any excuses for her. She is evil and deserves whatever repercussions she receives.
@@123marlanamars oh, no. She is a psychopath. She is evil. If you don't reckon with the existence of evil, Letby, Ted Bundy, et al, are people you will never be able to understand.
@mariata Your point about how Letby used her ‘niceness’ and ‘pleasant demeanour’ to manipulate is very observant and important. Using the traits in a woman most likely to encourage trust, disarm all suspicion, and overcome all reluctance - that’s the scariest, most dangerous type of evil. We’ve heard of the narcissist’s use of charm and a mask by now, but I have never heard of niceness as a tool.
This is the worst thing I have ever heard. So incredibly heartbreaking for the new parents. Brings tears to my eyes. I hope they take care of her in prison.
Releasing her to general population in prison would be justice. Even criminals have ethics to what is acceptable. They would show who is rubbish rather quickly I’m sure. As a grandparent of a 3 lb 4 oz grandson watching him thrive and grow into a healthy 10 year old, I’m enraged. 😭😭🤬. I’m sorry for my rant. I’ve just lost it.
She presents as Machiavellian frankly. This case is one of the most disturbing cases I’ve ever heard of in history. Thank you for giving voice to the victims in such a professional and thoughtful manner, as always.
I’ve been a NICU nurse in Texas for 37 years. When there’s an unexpected or unexplained death in the NICU it goes under review by the hospital ethics board. Especially, with common dominators of same nurse same shift should have been red flags. I’m surprised the UK doesn’t have the same process. My heart breaks for theses family. We as NICU nurses go over and beyond to save and make theses babies well to go home with their loving parents. This nurse deserves the life sentence in prison.
The board protected her! They went as far as making the drs apologie to her… yet people defending her are making the argument she was scapegoated but by whom? If the management weren’t concerned about the strange rise in deaths in 2015 and 2016 then why would anyone need to take any blame for it? Makes no sense
The Hospital were covering their own Ass's....they knew bad things were happening but sat on their hands and tried to keep it quiet The Parents of the Deceased Babies are apparently going to Sue the Management for the Cover up so stay Tuned, Poor Families And Poor little babies , I will NEVER understand how some People get off on causing others pain 😪
"...with common dominators of same nurse same shift should have been red flags..." What if it's a particularly hard working nurse who does long hours? This could explain why they're always around at the hospital no?
Lauren & Dr John. this was very touching, you both have so much in common with the victims and their families We give our children to strangers eg Teachers, Coaches, Nurses, Doctors, etc. not really knowing what the outcome will be until something hits the headlines Thank you for covering this subject.
I have held a baby who died. With dried blood on her. The trauma from that experience has shown itself in the moments I least expect it to.. I can't even begin to imagine the trauma of your baby tragically dying, finding out it was actually murder, from a person in a position of trust.. and then the bathing, etc. Truly disgusting. Humans killing each other has never made much sense to me - yet adult humans killing babies is on another level. Here is to hope. For us all.
Even in hospice care those working hope to make the patient comfortable to live out their natural days. Having worked in hospitals I can say that patients that are lost ride into eternity from this life on the wings of our hopes. Would that each could be given one more breath of wellness is part of the oath. I hope you will continue to seek trauma therapy or processing as these experiences have layers like onion. Take good care of yourself as we care for others.
Her behaviors demonstrate a knowledge of inflicting pain on her victims and her awareness that the parents were her victims as well. Horrible that people like her exist. EVIL.
I too tried to listen to all of this but it's so nightmarish that I just can't handle it. Parts of humanity have become so depraved that I can't even believe it. Thank you two for continuing to go there, but it must wear on your hearts too. Love you guys.
Thanks Lauren and Dr. John for discussing this case! I learned about this case over the weekend and was captivated by it due to it seeming so inconceivable. I was hoping that you two would unpack this case. I too am a clinical psychologist with very limited forensic experience. I love learning from Dr John (and you too lauren!) Some thoughts and questions: -I found it interesting that as an only child she seemed to target multiples. She also targeted the most vulnerable babies. It was reported that she searched the Facebook accounts of the grieving mothers. Was she looking to re-live her killings, to feel special, or to sadistically see the families grieve? What do you imagine the function of searching Facebook was? Is there any potential that she wanted to see these mothers grieve due to her own grief/despair related to her beliefs “I’ll never have a husband, baby/family”. Was she seeking to see what grief would feel like? Did she think these women didn’t deserve a family because she didn’t have one? I suppose part of me wonders Did she target the babies or the moms…possibly the whole family unit. -I’m curious what triggered her/led to the escalation of her first offense. It’s my understanding she went to a friend/fellow nurses “hen party”, returned home and committed her first attack the next day. Did her friends hen party possibly trigger feelings of shame/rejection that led her to attack? Then she got a rush from the act or secondary gains of attention/validation/sympathy? -The post it notes were soooo interesting. It’s my understanding she described them as “journaling”. There is an intensity to the notes. They seem to show intense, dark dysregulated emotions. There are things she wrote repetitively. I sensed anger. Rage even. There was also an element of urgency and disorganization. Its a look into her internal world and the thoughts that recur -I find myself wondering about her choice of profession. Is it likely she went into the profession with homicidal fantasies? -Lastly, the childlike and Disney-centric nature of her bedroom was so interesting. It’s as though she was creating a fantasy/curate version of who she is; pure and innocent. In the notes she describes feeling “evil”. Was the way she decorated her external space an attempt to hide these parts of herself? Was it to appear innocent to others? Did something happen in her childhood? So many questions!
Her mother had experienced a difficult birth when having her (only child). One wonders what she heard around that during her childhood “you’re special/chosen”, “you were saved for a reason” ?? LL had said she wanted to be a neo natal nurse since school “to pay back for her own experience as a newborn.”
Hi there thanks for covering this! Lucy is the fourth woman here in the UK to get a full life tariff. The others are Myra Hindley (deceased), Rose West and Joanna Dennehy. ♥
Emma Tustin should also have received a whole life tariff for her prolonged torture and eventual murder of her boyfriend’s six year old son - she is more beast than human being and as she recorded his awful ordeals, unquestionably guilty.
I don’t think the evidence against letby was damning enough to warrant a whole life sentence I do think she’s guilty based on the extreme number of deaths in the two years she was present with the babies but for a whole life term more was needed imo
This abuse of privilege to be around the powerless (children, elderly, people in the hospital) reminds me of the sick women who work as teachers (and we parents TRUST them with our sons/children) and then violate the trust by DATING the students /having an illegal, illicit relationship with them. It’s chilling. Antisocial personality disorder!! Ty Dr. John & Lauren. 🙏🏻❤️
@@eleanoraquitaine2966 you’ve never heard of 34 year old teacher Mary Kay Letournoue with her 12 year old student Villi Fuallau ? She got pregnant with him when he was TWELVE & her student. Had 2 kids with him. Disgusting. There are many more other than her.
@@scarlettohara843this is a huge leap from pedos. She is a serial killer and while they are both nonhuman, what she does there is no comparison. Btw many more men who are teachers abuse. The women just stand out since it is not as common.
Baby A in this case was killed with insulin. With one nurse taking care of that baby there should have been an investigation right then and there and her license suspended. Yes, someone else could have done it but it should have been investigated. You could get fingerprints from the vial.
She was reported to management by several consultants AND they were made to write letters of apology to her, UNBELIEVABLE. The British public are saying that those managers should be took to court too.
In my work as a school psychologist I had two occasions where I suspected Munchausen both very disturbing cases of child abuse that no one wanted to believe. Also difficult to prove.
I was thinking Munchausen too John before you mentioned it. BTW I like the word Munchausen too. Such a sad case. As a L&D nurse for 32yrs you grieve when you loose a precious baby in your care and you avoid tragic scenarios like this at all costs!!
This is very hard for me. I have devoted my life’s work to caring for the sick. I can accept that another doctor or a nurse might make a mistake - might be careless - more often might just not be able to save all of your patients - but to intentionally kill your patient?! It’s inconceivable and I am enraged.
I feel so awful for the mother who intuitively knew that something was seriously wrong, as a 1st time mum i would have been an easy mark, its only as you get older and more experienced and confident that you would challenge a Doctor Nurse or a professional. Just horrible its just disgusting.
I had my son in 1996 at 33, a single health care professional, and at the time, babies were being stolen from hospitals. When they wanted to take him to get circumcised, I said not without me.i would not let them take my son away from me for one minute for fear. Someone would take him. Finally, his dad came in and went with him to be curcumcised. Then I wouldn't let no one watch him except my mom. This is so unbelievable and outrageous. Prayers to the family! Shame on anyone who did not stop her earlier.
I’ve been following this trial because I have a close relative who works at the Countess of Chester. I wanted to point out a couple of things - firstly, I’m fairly sure that the photos of her bedroom are her childhood bedroom at her parent’s house (where she was arrested). They aren’t from her bedroom in Chester. I don’t know what her ‘adult’ bedroom looked like, but it wouldn’t be strange for the bedroom she had as a teenager to have those quotes on the wall, fairy lights etc. Also - it seems like she was quite enmeshed with her parents. There is a text message exchange with a friend where the friend says she’s going to nurse in New Zealand. Lucy says something like, ‘I’d love to do that but I could never move that far away from my parents - it was hard enough to move two hours away to work.’ (I’m paraphrasing but that is the gist). There are a few other things to support this - for example, her father attended a mediation session at the Countess (and he isn’t a lawyer or anything like that.) The sadist element really just floors me. It is just so incredible sad and tragic to think of a NICU nurse deliberately causing pain and death to a child. Reading the parent’s victim impact statements was just gut wrenching - this is a trauma and pain that will impact generations of those families. I am also so sorry for the trauma inflicted on her work colleagues - who work so hard and who are so dedicated. ❤❤❤
Oh, Lauren and John! This breaks my heart. Our son was 3 months premature and was in the NICU for 7 1/2 weeks. Those nurses and doctors were the kindest and most caring people in the world. I can’t begin to imagine the horror this person reeked on those families! 😢
This case has inflamed my core. As a nurse for 43 years this case is inconceivable. I always admire the nurses that could work pediatrics and NICU as I could not. I always prided myself in critical thinking and problem solving to be proactive in preventing a patient from crashing. You are always behind the 🎱 ball in reactive mode. As I've been researching this case there have been a lot of points made by others regarding the motive and who Lucy is. She herself was an only child and a premature baby in a NICU. Her parents were doting and treated her special. Lucy used the phrase feeling smothered. Lucy saved handoff sheets with info on her patients. This is something that we are told not to ever do. The hen party was for a coworker who was soon to get married. She seemed to have a lack of the usual relationships as a young adult. People say she had no boyfriends and was not in social circles in school. More of a nerd. As a nurse she felt power and control. Put herself in the spotlight at work. She was very respected by her managers. She caused the incident, created the chaos and used it to get her adrenaline rush and be a master manipulator. It is appalling that these deaths weren't nipped in the bud from the beginning. There were certainly patterns. Sentinel events in US are reported to OSHA. Root cause analysis is done from the get go on any Patient safety event. Hospital administrators dropped the ball and should be held accountable. Police were not brought in for over a year. It was their duty to advocate for patients and families. Agree with your analysis. Wish you would do another episode doing a deeper dive into the psychology. This case is so important. This cannot happen again. You mentioned the books she was reading but didn't get into that. There were 2 books. Would like to hear Dr John's thoughts on that and why the administrators ignored the red flags, and why you think she testified. So glad you did this story. I always learn so much and both of you exude compassion. So glad I became a member.
Thank you for covering this. One thing I would like to know is whether she was exclusively targeting first time parents rather than parents who had older children. Just from my own experience as a parent with the first one I was very much learning on the advice of others starting in the hospital, whereas the second time I went by experience and instinct and was much more likely to challenge things i didn't feel were right. Even in hospital first time parents get more support and if she was deliberately targeting them it really is sick. I can only guess that some of the parents were first time parents as ivf was mentioned with some of them and she targeted several multiple births. To think of the struggle these families had to become parents only for this to happen is terrible. It was heartbreaking to hear that some families are so traumatised that they can't try again and can't trust hospitals and other people with authority in schools etc.
These stories make us nurses who truly care about our patients look bad. We come home and can't sleep, cry, ask ourselves in guilt if we did everything right and still beat ourselves up. I am so so angry about this case.
Like many others I love being here, listening, learning and understanding Dr Johns quote today…. Wow, one of the most profound he could have chosen…. I love that Lauren has Johns paw and vice versa, the love between you both is truly beautiful, you took her breath away… love, it is everything… to love and be loved is the magic xx ❤
I feel the same. John has the soul of a poet. I broke down just as Lauren did. The quote was so child-like and simple, and so moving. Thank you, thank you, John and Lauren. You strengthen us in ways you cannot know.
@@janetshemaryahu5529 …we often lose the magic as we get older, it is our responsibility to maintain it 🥰… step into the ‘childlike’ or at least look through that lens at points 😂😂. It all comes back to love, love is everything, however, to love is to be exposed and vulnerable, I think that’s the trade off ha ha…. Piglet and poo are lucky indeed, fondest love on this beautiful day xx 😘
The third woman to receive a life sentence? Geez, I’m from Texas,that is shocking. How on earth could she just not go to her sentencing? What a despicable coward! This is a terrible case. I’m sooooo sorry for the families.
4th women sentenced to a whole life term. (Joanne Dennehy, Myra Hindley and Rose West are the other three) The vast majority of life sentences in England and Wales (seperate legal systems) are those with a minimum “punishment” phase.
That's a thought..Beverly Allett, also a killer nurse that killed babies. Wasn't she given life without parole? I vaguely remember Myra Hindley going for parole.but i might be just remembering all her attepts to get out.
Myra Hindley kept challenging her whole life term. And died just before the decision that a judge (not a politician) had to decide the punishment phase Beverley Allit is now eligible to apply to be released on license, with a 30 year minimum punishment phase but as she is in a secure psychiatric hospital. I do not think she will be released anytime soon.
The UK criminal justice systems are heavily focused on rehabilitation which is why you get life with a minimum of x years (for the punishment phase) in most cases. After that they are on license and can so easily be recalled to prison. It is also why there are so few with whole life orders in English and Welsh Prisons.
David Hill Thanks for reassuring us here in the UK that despite the horror of this case - it is still the real exception - nevertheless the poor parents - difficult to imagine their devastation - our prayers and thoughts for them.
Thank you both for being willing to be vulnerable and share your experience with your sweet child. As a mother of two, one of which spent some time in NICU, I am beyond appalled and heartbroken for these families. Thank you for your reporting and I hope and pray that the lawmakers in the UK consider changing their laws to no longer give these murderers the choice to hide away from their crimes and make them stand before their victims and hear their impact statements.
I've been to the hospital multiple time with my mom for various reasons, and each time I stayed there and slept there as I wanted to be sure she was cared for. In some cases, it was because they didn't have enough staff to adequately care for all the patients.
UK resident here, good to see the US talking about this. People are outraged over this case especially as some of the babies could have been going to school now, if the hospital management had took notice, of the senior Doctors (Consultants) who had suspected that Letby was involved earlier on, instead they were made to apologise to Letby, for making such accusations……….unbelievable, it really does beg belief. Parents and families, and the many from the medical profession are putting pressure on out Prime Minister to to change the Independent Inquiry to Statutory Public Inquiry, because it holds much more power to bring in witnesses and evidence. We all want to see, those who ignored the doctor’s complaints, made to be accountable also for further babies deaths and harm, by allowing Lucy Letby to continue to work on the Neonatal Baby Unit.
My son was born 7 weeks early and at 4lbs he thrived while in the Nikki U and we were and are so grateful for the wonderful care he and we received I remember everytime an alarm went off on one of the incubators we stopped breathing for a moment worried it was our little man so when you read the letter I could completely understand how that mother felt knowing that the nurses were so much more qualified than we were so yes we trusted them with our most prized possession. My heart breaks for all those parents
England here.. 🇬🇧 🏴 this is on parr with Harold Shipman!! The only thing I wish for is for us to have the same rules and sentences as you guys do!! We are so lenient and it's wrong!!
I first became interested in this phenomena when many years ago I watched a documentary about a young woman was imprisoned and later released, being accused of killing a baby in her care. Her non-reaction was interpreted evidence of narcissism and guilt. When I saw this I thought, I'd be the first one they threw into the fire, because I would react the same way, calmly answering all the questions and correcting any information that was wrong, just as Lucy did then cracking up behind closed doors. We live amongst huge amounts of prejudice towards people who are different, despite all the chanting for an equal society. Society shouldn't on the one hand be praising calm, collective, cold calculation in a crisis and at the same time say they should be put in prison for the same behaviour. We can't have it both ways.
Catching this at the end/ but I’ve been watching what I can of this case, and so wanted to believe she couldn’t be a murderer. I’m so happy to hear Dr.John break this down. 💔
0:290:300:310:31 Thank you dearest Babe Lauren & Dr Babe John - for giving & presenting difficult Stories of varying sadness to us. 😥❤💕💝 Steph at New South Wales Australia 5:58 🌺🌸🌺🌸
As difficult as this must be you both really give an amazing insight. Thank you so much and bless you. So glad you have your precious boy. Prayers for the families who lost their babies to this monster. I know a family that hired a nicu nurse to work for them that abused their babies. They lived but she escaped much prosecution. She could be this woman’s twin. This really is the most horrible crime.
Thank you for covering this !!! I think that Lucy Letby was jealous of families with children bc she didn’t think she would ever have that experience. That’s why she killed those innocent babies
This case really hits me hard. My precious granddaughter was a 1 lb. 6 oz. preemie and spent about 3 months in NICU. in this situation, families trust the staff completely because we believe that they are keeping these babies alive, we depend upon that and trust that they WANT these precious babies to live. Thank God, my granddaughter had excellent care and has grown to be a healthy, happy and beautiful 14 year old. I really can't thank the NICU staff enough. We families are aware that rhese babies are fragile, dependent and need special care and deep inside we are worried that the tiny baby won't make it, so our need to trust staff is extremely high. I don't think it ever crossed my mind that a nurse in NICU would harm my granddaughter. We needed to trust the nurses because in our minds, they and God were keeping this baby alive
I'm from England (living in Texas) and was hoping you'd cover this. I saw that she has been compared to Beverly Allitt, another nurse who murdered babies at the hospital where she worked.
Having read the facts of this case, the fact that Lucy was found guilty at all is an absolute travesty. Poor Lucy is paying for the incompetence of others who aren’t honest enough to admit their shortcomings. That the justice system in this country can’t see the truth leaves us knowing that none of us will truly get justice when the system is as corrupt as this.
A psychopath aided and abetted by nhs business image management monsters with no meaningful mission statement. Chance after chance after chance after chance to stop her, covered up by management monsters encouraging her to continue with her grievance procedures against the very doctors who were not listened to. These monsters even gave her incentives and gifts and forced doctors to apologise to her in writing.
This may be the most important point made! Every system needs to have checks and balances built into it bc of the possibility of bad actors and human error.
I find this case so confusing. I work in a Nicu and it’s a huge deal when a baby dies. How did this go on for so long? I find it hard to watch coverage of it. Mind blowing and heartbreaking on so many levels. I’m so sad for these parents.
A lot of people (myself included) thought she should be forced to listen to the victim impact statements. However, in this case I think this woman would enjoy the expressions of pain and suffering of her victims’ families.
Thank you for both of your braveries in covering this, I salute you, it could not have been easy. It is so horrendous that the defenceless, being infants and also elders are targets, as they cannot fight back. My heartfelt sympathy does go out to the innocent families and co-workers. Be brave, be courageous and above all never give up. 11:17
I’m struggling to process this heartbreaking event too, particularly because 18 years ago my twins were in the NICU and we thought the nurses there were absolute angels (because they were). I also remember from chatting to other parents in the NICU, that so many of the newborn preterm multiple births were IVF babies. This demonic nurse targeted twins and triplets, perhaps because she thought that their innate vulnerability would not raise suspicions. I keep thinking that many of the parents who lost babies, may have been through so much to become parents, and to lose their babies in such a cruel and horrendous way, at the hands of such a cold and calculating maladapted individual is just un fathomable. My heartfelt prayers are with those families. 😢
I'm a retired nurse. I did a catheterization which didn't go to plan!!! I felt TERRIBLE GUILTY and I spent a week berating myself. So I really really can't understand it..AT ALL. She comes over as very very cold and unflappable. I'm SO GLAD YOUR SON GOT WELL...🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Lauren hugs & prayers to your baby brother. Thank you both so much for bringing such unbiased and educational information to us❤ I still want to hear more about the whole OUR shenanigans plz!
Here in the US the doctor who was forced to apologize to her would sue the hospital. I wonder if the UK has any laws that would allow him to do so? If so, he should sue to get regain his good name again. The parents should also be able to sue the hospital, especially the parents whose children were murdered after doctors and other nurses began to raise alarm bells about her.
Oh, my god. Baby E's story shattered my heart. Oh, that poor little sweet boy. She tortured him to death! How could you do that to the most innocent and helpless of beings? Oh, my god. All of my love to that poor mother and her family.
I am in my early 40s and I we a premature baby myself. I was 1 pound 15 oz. I went on to work in a caring profession due to care that I received through out my life. I was a care worker. The thought that this could happen to such tiny babies upsets me so much.
Letby also wrote on the same note, "I didn't do anything wrong". How would the psychologist explain that in the context of Freudian self-defence mechanisms (displacement and projection). Don't tell me, 'denial'? Also, the prosecution in the case only showed to the jury, the notes that fitted with their narrative. However, there were many other relevant notes found at her house, that wasn't shown in court.
This case has devastated a lot of us in the UK. My brother was premature 36 years ago. He nearly died weighing just under 2lb and yet the wonderful doctors and nurses saved him. We were told he might struggle but no he fought and now he is a fit 6ft tall marathon runner. A miracle. I cannot fathom how anyone in the CARE profession could do this. Thank you for covering this x ❤💔 thinking of the hurting families x the tears came to me also with the AA Milne quote
6 foot marathons? that sounds much easier.
I did work on a NICU unit in the states that hired new grads. You were put into the Phase 2, ready to discharge part of the unit. I took awhile to get to phase 1 with new admits. You were always with a trainer.
@@rickjames5998 that’s about my size marathon
That's our NHS for ya!😉
@@saydvoncripps they did (the NHS) save his life 3 times and my mum’s life. ❤️
I gave birth to my son preterm. He spent 16 days in the NICU. I was there the entire time during lockdown. This story is heartbreaking 💔 there is so much to unpack! I never even thought for a second he would be hurt by the staff at the hospital!! 😢
Just when we thought we couldn't love Dr John any more, he quotes AA Milne, "I just want to be sure of you." ❤❤❤
I listen to all your podcasts, but I'm afraid I can't this time. This has really hit us hard in the UK. The fact she chose not to face her victims parents statements is just beyond despicable and cowardly. My heart goes out to all the families 😢
Absolutely. Letby is a coward. It shouldn't have been allowed. She should have been compelled to be there.
The victims families deserved that.
The fact that the court allowed her to skip sentencing is the biggest crock I’ve ever heard
Lori Vallow in the United States, another murderess, wanted to leave the courtroom during testimony, but the Judge forced her to remain and listen ...'to face the music'. But I want to encourage you to listen to Dr. John, because it helps to understand the psychological aspect of this. It may help you.
In cases like this I think the convicted should be forced to listen to the impact statements.
The law should be changed in the UK to force the guilty to listen to impact statements.
Thank you for talking about this case. As a Patient Safety Nurse here in the States, this case has INFURIATED me. My heart breaks for the innocent and beautiful babies she murdered in cold blood, their families, and her dedicated and courageous co-workers who spoke up and reported her. The trust that is built between a nurse and her patient/family, and even coworkers is sacred, its sacrosanct. She heinously violated that trust in such an agregious way. I can't find the words to adequately say just how heartbreaking this case is to me. May God be with the families, her victims, and her coworkers.
Check the Charles Cullen case.
@BostonSarah this case is indeed a major miscarriage of justice. Lucy Letby did not have a fair trial.
In the case of Child G which they claimed was forced fed with milk.
An infant who was born at 23 weeks gestation developed a projectile vomiting condition, immediately after being fed. These vomiting episodes were accompanied by moments of low blood oxygen levels (desaturations). It is reported that Lucy Letby fed the infant 45 ml of formula, breast milk and Gaviscon, however Dr Evans alleged that at the same time she also injected air into the infant’s stomach, via the nasogastric tube. Dr Evans claimed an estimated 100 ml of stomach contents was aspirated from Baby G and this was validation that Lucy Letby injected air and milk into the infant’s stomach, and she did so for the purposes of attempting to murder the infant.
Dr. Evans also confirms that at around this time the infant’s C-reactive protein level had risen from 0 to 200. C-reactive protein is an immune response protein which is released by the liver upon infection, the increase in CRP is a strong indicator that she was experiencing an infection. As a consequence of the increased CRP the infant was prescribed additional antibiotics. There is strong evidence that excessive antibiotic usage in preterm deleterious to the development of the enteric nervous systems. Dr. Evans failed to demonstrate that the indicators of infectious disease, observed in Child G, were not causative for her presentation of desaturations and vomiting.
In the case of Child F and Child L which they claimed insulin poisoning.
Two of the infants were reported to have hypoglycemia, within the first few days of birth. Both infants were premature and they were both the result of separate twin pregnancies. Dr Evans claimed that Lucy Letby poisoned the infants with insulin, this claim was made on the basis of a single blood test for each child. The reason Dr Evans claims the blood test for insulin proves that Lucy Letby poisoned the infants is because they tested the concentration of insulin and C-peptide. C-peptide and insulin are produced from the same molecule, proinsulin, in an equal ratio. The blood test showed high insulin and very low C-peptide. This led to the faulty assumption that the insulin being measured must have been delivered exogenously. The discordance in the ratio of insulin to c-peptide was used as a basis to suggest that the insulin measured in the blood tests was delivered exogenously. There are a number of issues with this faulty reasoning. A blood test, such as the one used in this case, cannot be the only evidence used to make a determination of insulin poisoning. In neonates, especially premature neonates, it has been identified that the >70% of the insulin in the blood is actually proinsulin and its metabolites. Given that insulin is formed from proinsulin they share sequence similarity. This means that a blood test for insulin may also detect proinsulin and it will be misreported at insulin. There are numerous confounding variables that the expert witnesses fail to discuss or make the court aware of, which place serious doubt on the reliability of the insulin tests being used to infer that the infants were administered exogenous insulin.
In the case of Child C, Dr Evans asserted that the infant died from Ms. Letby injecting air into the nasogastric tube. Child C was born with an air bubble in his stomach, which was observed on x-ray shortly after birth. This bubble worsened over time, and the description of the events that follow are suggestive of a condition termed PYLORIC ATRESIA. This condition occurs where there is a blockage in the stomach that prevents gastric emptying. Interestingly, Dr Gibbs made suggestions about a potential blockage but it is apparent there was little, or no, diagnostic work-up to identify what, if any, treatment should be given. PYLORIC ATRESIA is associated with significant mortality, especially where it is left untreated. Suggestions from the defense that the abdominal bloating occurred due to CPAP appear unfounded, given that abdominal bloating from CPAP typically does not occur until at least 4 days after treatment is initiated. However, the usage of CPAP may have worsened the condition, though the greatest issue was the failure to ascertain the cause of the black aspirates, and the associated gaseous formation in the gut and bowel.
In the case of Child I, look how incompetent Dr. Gibbs was. He removed Child I from the ventilator at 12:45 am, despite that infant demonstrated signs of seizure activity (lip smacking, posturing), and she had repeated periods of apnea. After removing the infant from the ventilator, Dr. Gibbs left the ward and returned home. At 2:10 am, Child I was pronounced dead. Given that 85% of sudden infant deaths occur during the night time hours it is SHOCKING that an infant would be removed from a ventilator during the night, and when fewer clinical staff will be available to assist. Further, for extremely preterm neonates (
@BostonSarah they got the wrong person. Lucy Letby might be a narcissist but not a psychopath killer.
CLAIM:
The deaths of the 7 babies in this case were initially considered unexplained.
TRUTH:
Autopsies were performed after death for 6 of the babies, and a specific cause of death was listed for 5 of them. The coroner found a cause of death in 5 out of 7 of the alleged murder cases. Two of them appeared to be, in part, related to aggressive CPR, two appeared to be due to undiagnosed hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy and myocarditis, one of the infants received no autopsy, and the other infant was determined to have died due to prematurity. It is highly unusual for the cause of death to be altered years after the fact and using methodology that is not supported by the coroner’s office.
CLAIM:
The babies died from air embolism, which was determined after the fact by an expert witness.
TRUTH:
The expert witness was not a pathologist. Air embolism can only be determined at the time of death using specific tests, which were not performed.
The air embolism hypothesis is confusing because it fails to explain why some children apparently perished and others did not, and it has not been supported by the minimal necessary measurements. Air embolism cannot be determined by imaging, and can only be determined soon after death, and requires the extraction of air from the circulatory system, and analysis of the composition of the air using gas chromatography.
CLAIM:
Lucy Letby attacked a baby who was born at 23 weeks gestation, causing injuries to the white matter of her brain.
TRUTH:
Very premature babies often have white matter injuries due to prematurity alone.
Parechovirus and enterovirus infection can also cause white matter injuries.
In at least one case, Lucy is blamed with causing white matter brain injury. This claim is utterly dishonest. The infant who experienced this brain injury was born at 23 weeks gestation, and white matter brain injury is associated with such early births. Further, there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that enterovirus and parechovirus infection has been linked to white matter brain injury in neonates, resulting in cerebral palsy.
CLAIM:
There was no evidence infection.
TRUTH:
The babies all showed many signs of viral infection, including
changes to vital signs and poor feeding.
CLAIM:
Enterovirus is rare.
TRUTH:
There are many published reports of enterovirus outbreaks in the UK during
2015-16. In spring 2016, an outbreak was reported at a hospital a few hours away.
At the time of the collapses and deaths of the infants, enterovirus and parechovirus had been reported in other hospitals. There is a history of outbreaks of these viruses in neonatal wards in hospitals around the world. They especially harm preterm infants who do not yet have a functioning immune system. It is reported that many parents of the infants were concerned that their ward had a virus (as was Lucy) and that Dr Gibbs denied this was so. To date we have seen no evidence to show they did any viral testing, and if they did what the results were.
CLAIM:
Blood tests prove that synthetic insulin was given to the babies.
TRUTH:
The presence of synthetic insulin cannot be established using the type of test that was performed. The testimony was false.
The two claims of insulin poisoning are not supported by the testing conducted, and the infants (who are still alive and well) did not have dangerously low or dangerously high blood glucose levels for any period of time. There are many physiological reasons that could explain their low blood glucose during the whole period. In one of the two cases, assumptions are being made on the basis of one test taken at a single time point, clearly inconsistent with the other medical readings, and contravening the manufacturer’s own instructions for use. The report detailing the conclusions from that single test violates the code of practice of the forensic science regulator. Moreover, it appears that some numerical error has been made in the necessary calculation, resulting in an outcome which is physiologically impossible (or the person responsible did not know about the so-called “hook effect”). The mismatch between C-peptide and insulin concentration does not prove that the excess insulin found must have been synthetic insulin. There are many other biological explanations for a mismatch. No testing was done to determine the origin of the insulin. Similarly, there are many innocent explanations for the detection of some insulin in a Total Parenteral Nutrition (TPN) bag.
There were more babies that suffered and survived Lucy's shifts. It's no coincidence.
@@anni730 clearly most of the infant deaths were due to doctors’ negligence and malpractice and the rest were due to natural causes . It could happen to all nurses, being blamed for something they haven’t done. A nurse being used as a scapegoat, but doctors bear no responsibility at all. How appalling is that!
Not only did he have to write an apology but deliver it face to face and was questioned about it with her at the table, by the hospital managers. What the hospital administration did was despicable.
The Countess of Chester is my local hospital and I was visiting my (adult) son in there when the press descended when she was charged with the murders and attempted murders. I think there must be psychopathy in her mental makeup to commit such heinous crimes. Most of the nursing staff at the hospital are wonderful, in my opinion the hospital management are also culpable. Some of those babies’ deaths could have been prevented, if only the management had listened to - and respected the findings of - those highly qualified doctors who voiced their deep concerns. Thank you for your quality, well-considered channel.
WOW! Thank you for sharing and thank you for being here. We agree that lives could have been saved.
1/100 people are psychopaths . not suprising.
She certainly has strong psychopathic and sadistic features. As an aside, roughly 40% of female serial homicide offenders work in health care, and they tend to gravitate towards the midnight shift.
Hospital management should have consequences also
Absolutely that made me so angry
@@CristinaJeanDonato They will.
There was a nurse here in the US that targeted the elderly. His name is Billy Chemirmir and he is suspected of killing at least 22 elderly patients in the exact same manner. The similarities between these 2 cases is uncanny. There were also Drs and Nurses for years that warned hospital officials and he was able to keep his license and move to several medical facilities for years. These people targeted some of our most vulnerable humans. Heart breaking
There's also Charlie Cullens in the US. He worked for decades. Multiple hospitals suspected something strange and just sent him off to the next one. I don't remember how many people he was convicted of killing, but it is estimated that he killed hundreds.
Seems like a lot of times when I hear about women doing awful things they are nurses. Of course there’s plenty of nurses that are great people I’m sure. Carlee Russell and Lindsay Clancy are both also nurses that have been in the news a lot the last few months.
Disgusting, at least he hasn't hit Harold Shipman numbers
@@jukie16Carlee Russell was not a nurse. She was in nursing school, but had recently failed out. She couldn't pass the courses
Medical based killers chose that profession for the very reason they have access to the extremely vulnerable which tends to be the very young or very old. We need to do something to protect patients more
My son was born 8 weeks early and spent 6 weeks in the NICU. When he was born the Dr.s gave him less than a 30% chance of surviving. I spent every moment I could by his incubator. My son couldn’t cry because he was on a ventilator. He weighed 4 lbs when we brought him home . He is now 40 years old and has a child himself. All those Dr.s and nurses in that unit are so caring and knowledgeable. I’m so grateful for their care of my baby.
As a UK listener, I have struggled to watch this case as it unfolded. It is probably the most terrifying case I have ever heard and thank you both for covering it. My daughter spent her first few days in the Special Care Baby Unit when she was born and I relied on the doctors and nurses to make her better which they thankfully did. I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could hurt these little defenceless babies or inflict that level of pain on their families. There are no words that can comfort these parents and the loss they have experienced and it is a pain that has resonated throughout the world. In the UK we are blessed to have the NHS and dedicated, professional caring health care workers whom we all owe so much. To think that this sadistic monster infiltrated our health care system and carried out such depraved acts is so frightening. We use the NHS at our most vulnerable times, when we are ill, when our family and friends are ill and to think that this monster has undermined that trust and created such fear in people is horrendous. May all the beautiful little souls rest in peace and I hope that her survivors go on to thrive. Thoughts and prayers to the families for the inexplicable loss they have endured, may they find peace x
I'm a nurse. I am mortified by these stories. You feel such an intense sense of responsibility to your patients and their families. I can't imagine what that so called nurse was thinking. My heart goes out to the families of those precious babies.
Thank you both for covering this story, the public fear, insecurity and anxiety this crime has caused is enormous here in uk. 💔
All across the world people that hear this heinous, evil acts by this vile woman, are outraged. I am weeping and so extremely distressed for all the victims families, friends, and nation. You so remain in my prayers and thoughts. 🕊️
My twins were 24 weekers. Our oldest passed away shortly after birth. Our youngest twin spent 115 days in the NICU. We trusted the staff and they saved our daughters life so many times. The one constantly during that time was the competent staff. That was our one light. To think that a nurse would willfully inflict pain and devastate lives is unimaginable.
So sorry for your loss ❤
I lost both of my twins shortly after birth 10 minutes for Grace and 26 hours for Ava. Twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Born at 30 weeks 😢.
I understand your loss. Can’t wait to see my girls in heaven one day.
This the very, very, very exception and we can not allow fear to cancel our faith…billions of babies are cared for loving, caring nurses and healthcare professionals.
We had 22 week old baby boys baby b was there for 2 month baby a passed away after 3 weeks I can’t even imagine they were 1 pound 6 and 1 pound 10 ounces so lil and helpless I have no words 😢😢
@@msperez1234
Bless you. So sorry for you xxxx
I have a friend who went through ivf several times before she and her partner could conceive. Her baby was born at 7 months and was in the nic-u for a year. She said that the nurses and doctors were incredibly kind. How horrific to think that this woman took these precious lives and in such cruel ways. My heart goes out to the parents.
On behalf of ethical nurses everywhere, this is not what or who we are, this is despicable. We are supposed to be the most trusted profession, yet there are evil doers among us. Sending apologies, love, peace, and prayers to all of those impacted by this horror.
♥
As a patient in the NHS, I cannot praise enough the nurses and doctors who have taken care of me and my family over the years when we have needed them. They have been professional kind and caring. This monster is an outlier and it is sad that her actions may cause distrust on the truly amazing health care workers out there who do a difficult and tremendous job every day.
I’m so grateful to nurses in the NICU, that those who looked after our twins 18 years ago are still in my prayers to this day. Nurses are angels, and I think that’s why this is so difficult to comprehend that this has happened. 😢
I Couldn't be a nurse for this reason. I can't watch anyone or anything suffer. How do Humans stomach this. I honestly think Nursing takes a certain type of person. Death and pain day in day out has to have an effect on anyone. Desensitising.
Omg I’m honestly so sick of hearing nurses talk about themselves and how needed and great they are. I think doctors are more important, teachers are important, but we hear so much about them too, but nurses seem to be the real squeaky wheel of all occupations, constantly looking for affirmation and attention.
I had my daughter at a hospital within 25 miles away from the hospital. Lucy Letby worked at. The lengths the Dr's and nurses went to to save my daughters life was above and beyond. If not for these professionals my daughter would not be here today. These Dr and nurses are real life super hero's. It's discusting to think a few miles away there was a sick evil coward undoing the work these super hero's fight so hard to achieve. Lucy Letby is clearly sick in the head. Here in the u.k we also had Beverly Allett dubbed the Angel of Death. I have seen how hard the professionals on the neo natal wards work 1st hand. Letby and Allet are sick exceptions. In my opinion there is no worse crime. She will never be free again to hurt the most vulnerable within our society.
Molly coddling by parents and psychopathic parents are to blame look into her privileged upbringing. They'll be middle class psychopaths all 3 of them... I'm in the UK too. Look into the parents if you have not already I know lots of parents creating these psychopaths who are in their 20s now. Entitled sadists.narcissists.. And when the mask is challenged by non family members they will cruelly try to screw over the person who unmasked them or questioned their sanity and choices.
I think that calling her ‘sick in the head’ is too simplistic. She’s bad, not mad. If she was given the diagnosis of mentally unwell, she wouldn’t have been deemed fit for a trial, and would be placed in a psychiatric hospital rather than a prison.
@sarahtaylor7737 agreed that said how can anyone that is not sick in the head do such a thing? I personally think it is a combination of both. There are also different mental illnesses not all will deem a person unfit for trial. Only the ones were a person has no idea what they have done, and had no control over their actions. I understand we all think differently when it comes to mentally unwell.. I just can't see a sane normal person going round murdering babies..
My son was a premie and in NICU. He also had septicemia and had to have antibiotics (vancomycin) which took one hour to administer and was vein invasive so they had to switch veins each time it was administered. I was there early one morning and his dosage had not been given to him. I asked the nurse and she said she would "get to it." I waited ten minutes, still no dosage...I went into the hallway and called his pediatriatrician and told her what was happening. Exactly 40 minutes later (it takes 40 minutes to drive with no traffic) in walks my son's doctor, screaming at the top of her lungs...and when the nurse complained and backtalked, she fired her on the spot! The nurse said this doctor couldn't do that...this doctor called the hospital administrator and demanded he come over and fire the nurse..which he did. I did not remember this until this morning as I was listening to your podcast.
Good doctor!!
Thank you so so much for covering this. I’m from the UK and was a NICU QIS nurse for years at Cambridge. This is a case that breaks my heart. I can picture everything because of my background and I couldn’t ever get my head around how much occurred around her in a low level unit, I never had an incident like this in the 5 years I worked there. She is evil, I can’t imagine the lasting impact this will have, not only for the families but for staff and parents today who are in the NICU
Thanks so much for covering this guys 🙏🏻❤
It'd absolutely gut wrenching. My heart goes out to those poor parents. 😢
I'm so, so angry that she was not made to listen to the sentencing and victim impact statements.
It's outrageous.
Just wanted to add that as she bathed the baby (who had passed) she was mentioning to the mother about how the baby had enjoyed being bathed by Letby (when alive) & the mother said she was wishing Letby to shut up! That's struck me as very sadistic & cruel & also a demonstration of how she had to put hersekf in the centre of the trauma.
Good point!
@@HiddenTrueCrime She took the hand and footprints of another of her victims, placed them in the memory box & suggested that they be made into a pendant. The mother wore that pendant until the police contacted her and told her of their investigation. She said that after that she realised that every memory she had of her child had been touched and polluted by their murderer.
That too was sadism.
@@serendpity3478 Now imagine you didn't do anything...
Thank you so much for covering this case. It’s hit us hard in the UK, it’s just utterly heartbreaking for everyone involved 💔 I wish we had better laws in the UK for criminals, capital punishment for the worst of the worst! Hoping one day we’ll be able to have cameras back in the court rooms to give the public full transparency, and i hope they do manage to change the not appearing for sentencing issue. It’s been a long 10 months following this case, I pray the families can somewhat close this chapter and continue being the strong, resilient amazing people that they are. RIP to all the beautiful angels and my heart goes out to the children who have suffered life changing injuries. I had my son in Sept 2015 and I can’t help but feel so emotional as my son is the same age as these poor kids. They should all be at school, growing into smart, intelligent little kids, having friends and family. Going on holidays and experiencing what it’s like to be carefree children 💔 😭 my heart hurts so bad 😢 Thank you John for your utterly professional opinions and insights , care and compassion. Take care
This case was for privacy reasons for the children. Privacy restrictions on the surviving children until they are 18.
@@helenllama I am aware of the privacy restrictions. I’ve followed this case from the very beginning
Think more charges will come and if the law is changed she may well have to face her accusers at a later date
Nah, not state killing - we need to keep her living as long and as miserably as possible!!
I am a NICU nurse. Even the most trustworthy nurse or doctor would immediately have several other nurses investigating what was going on. Where were the other nurses?
I've not heard much about the other nurses concens although you'd think they'd be the first to notice any issues, but several doctors went to management to raise concerns about her and were told to go away and apologise to her
I agree totally, this would have raised sooo many red flags as the NICU is a fluid team of professionals that must work together. I don’t understand how she even got away with these atrocities for so long.
@@ask_me_if_I_care some of her coworkers are standing by her, also a fundraiser is going to begin to help finance an appeal for her.
There was concern but the powers that be would not listen!
When you read her text messages she exchanged with other nurses it seems they thought she was wonderful
Thank you for talking about this case. Cannot understand how a nurse could even think about harming a NICU baby.
Im so glad you are talking about this case!
❤❤❤❤
As a nurse, this honestly breaks my heart. I cannot imagine acting on, let alone having thoughts, to MURDER newborn vulnerable babies. Just despicable... this is not who we are!
This is beyond words!! Thank you both for the surprise coverage of this story and ya’ll are much appreciated. The most fragile and vulnerable should be nurtured and cared never harmed in any manner! 💜🧡
Your unplanned lives come at the best times. When i cant sleep or like today overthinking things when my ADHD will definitely let me forget my problems and hyperfocus on this. You made all of us have to wonder 24 hours a day less about this all week. Every time some new type of crime or criminal comes up....we all just cannot wait to finally hear Dr. Babes take. Lets our minds stop wandering. Thank you. You are alway so on point, professional and comprehensive Lauren...this show doesn't go on without either of you. What a team.
There are no words.......Those parents will mourn the rest of their lives. I am just sickened by this. I lost a baby to meningitis. The grief was tremendous. I don't think I could have ever recovered knowing someone ( a health care professional!) intentionally killed my baby......
I am so very sorry for your loss. The pain is unimaginable and I pray for healing and peace for you.
Words cannot convey my pain for your loss. Just know that I send you my love, strength, and prayers.
I am so sorry. ❤
As a pediatric nurse for more than 28 years, this story breaks my heart and infuriates me at the same time! How can anyone harm or kill anyone, much less an innocent baby?!💔
Prayers for all the families affected and I hope this evil woman gets the help she needs. Otherwise, there is a special place in hell for what she’s done! 😞
It is unbelievably disgusting. What caused her to do it? Maybe she couldn’t stand the fact that these precious infants were the center of attention, that they were so important and she was not. She was serving them, but didn’t feel good enough (and sh always was good enough). She was always the center of attention, but not this time. The babies were. So, she hated that, and she must have hated them. Who could kill those dear little babies without hating them?
As a nurse I am just mortified! We had twins that weighed 15 ounces and 1# 1 oz in our unit. How could anyone do anything other than comfort the parents and do all you could for the babies?
I am a retired nurse, I can see your care and compassion, and your experience, this is absolutely heartbreaking for the families, I can’t fathom a nurse behaving this way.
I’ve recently subscribed to your channel as your compassion for the victims and Dr. John’s very thoughtful insights are exactly in line with how I feel these horrendous crimes should be handled in a responsible manner on UTube. Your mods are fantastic too. I tuned in ready but I knew once the details began that I could not stay. More power and grace to you both.
I have worked in the U.K. health system for many years .. one of the things that surprised me about this case is that Letby was very young when she started working in the NICU and started killing babies. Working in a NICU requires specialised skills that would be gained over more years of experience than she had at the time. Nurses generally progress into more specialised units - they generally don’t start working in a NICU straight out of nursing school. So it baffles me how she was deemed qualified enough to work there with that kind of responsibility, at such a young age.
It suggests to me that she purposely targeted THE MOST vulnerable patients in any hospital (babies) and managed to convince/manipulate more senior and more experienced staff into believing that she should work in such an environment.
In addition to the insulin and other methods that she used, her “niceness” and “friendly demeanour” applied manipulatively, were perhaps her most powerful weapons.
Thank God for those senior doctors (Consultants) who raised the alarm and did not give up until justice was ultimately served.
I wonder if she didn’t know how to do her job at all -so resorted to killing because she had no idea how to keep alive?
The babies didn't slip away because care was not given. She intentionally inflicted murderous causes of death with selfish intentions for herself. Let's not offer any excuses for her. She is evil and deserves whatever repercussions she receives.
@@123marlanamars oh, no. She is a psychopath. She is evil. If you don't reckon with the existence of evil, Letby, Ted Bundy, et al, are people you will never be able to understand.
@mariata Your point about how Letby used her ‘niceness’ and ‘pleasant demeanour’ to manipulate is very observant and important. Using the traits in a woman most likely to encourage trust, disarm all suspicion, and overcome all reluctance - that’s the scariest, most dangerous type of evil. We’ve heard of the narcissist’s use of charm and a mask by now, but I have never heard of niceness as a tool.
She even got them to apologise and offer her more exclusive neo
Natal work !! Sick sick sick
This is the worst thing I have ever heard. So incredibly heartbreaking for the new parents. Brings tears to my eyes. I hope they take care of her in prison.
Releasing her to general population in prison would be justice. Even criminals have ethics to what is acceptable. They would show who is rubbish rather quickly I’m sure. As a grandparent of a 3 lb 4 oz grandson watching him thrive and grow into a healthy 10 year old, I’m enraged. 😭😭🤬. I’m sorry for my rant. I’ve just lost it.
She presents as Machiavellian frankly. This case is one of the most disturbing cases I’ve ever heard of in history. Thank you for giving voice to the victims in such a professional and thoughtful manner, as always.
Agree 💯
Also narcissistic due to excessive attention seeking. Probably a Covert Narcissist, she could fool a lot of professionals.
@@westcoast747💯
I’ve been a NICU nurse in Texas for 37 years. When there’s an unexpected or unexplained death in the NICU it goes under review by the hospital ethics board. Especially, with common dominators of same nurse same shift should have been red flags. I’m surprised the UK doesn’t have the same process. My heart breaks for theses family. We as NICU nurses go over and beyond to save and make theses babies well to go home with their loving parents. This nurse deserves the life sentence in prison.
The board protected her! They went as far as making the drs apologie to her… yet people defending her are making the argument she was scapegoated but by whom? If the management weren’t concerned about the strange rise in deaths in 2015 and 2016 then why would anyone need to take any blame for it? Makes no sense
The Hospital were covering their own Ass's....they knew bad things were happening but sat on their hands and tried to keep it quiet
The Parents of the Deceased Babies are apparently going to Sue the Management for the Cover up so stay Tuned,
Poor Families And Poor little babies , I will NEVER understand how some People get off on causing others pain 😪
"...with common dominators of same nurse same shift should have been red flags..." What if it's a particularly hard working nurse who does long hours? This could explain why they're always around at the hospital no?
Lauren & Dr John. this was very touching, you both have so much in common with the victims and their families We give our children to strangers eg Teachers, Coaches, Nurses, Doctors, etc. not really knowing what the outcome will be until something hits the headlines Thank you for covering this subject.
I have held a baby who died. With dried blood on her. The trauma from that experience has shown itself in the moments I least expect it to.. I can't even begin to imagine the trauma of your baby tragically dying, finding out it was actually murder, from a person in a position of trust.. and then the bathing, etc.
Truly disgusting.
Humans killing each other has never made much sense to me - yet adult humans killing babies is on another level.
Here is to hope.
For us all.
Even in hospice care those working hope to make the patient comfortable to live out their natural days. Having worked in hospitals I can say that patients that are lost ride into eternity from this life on the wings of our hopes. Would that each could be given one more breath of wellness is part of the oath. I hope you will continue to seek trauma therapy or processing as these experiences have layers like onion. Take good care of yourself as we care for others.
@@mtaylor7307💙
Her behaviors demonstrate a knowledge of inflicting pain on her victims and her awareness that the parents were her victims as well. Horrible that people like her exist. EVIL.
Molly coddled by her own parents who turn her into entitled psychopath and they are psychopaths too
I too tried to listen to all of this but it's so nightmarish that I just can't handle it. Parts of humanity have become so depraved that I can't even believe it. Thank you two for continuing to go there, but it must wear on your hearts too. Love you guys.
There’s nothing new about people behaving horrendously - just read up on the baby farmers. We are just more likely to hear about it nowadays.
Same here. I just can't handle it....😢
Thanks Lauren and Dr. John for discussing this case! I learned about this case over the weekend and was captivated by it due to it seeming so inconceivable. I was hoping that you two would unpack this case. I too am a clinical psychologist with very limited forensic experience. I love learning from Dr John (and you too lauren!)
Some thoughts and questions:
-I found it interesting that as an only child she seemed to target multiples. She also targeted the most vulnerable babies. It was reported that she searched the Facebook accounts of the grieving mothers. Was she looking to re-live her killings, to feel special, or to sadistically see the families grieve? What do you imagine the function of searching Facebook was? Is there any potential that she wanted to see these mothers grieve due to her own grief/despair related to her beliefs “I’ll never have a husband, baby/family”. Was she seeking to see what grief would feel like? Did she think these women didn’t deserve a family because she didn’t have one? I suppose part of me wonders Did she target the babies or the moms…possibly the whole family unit.
-I’m curious what triggered her/led to the escalation of her first offense. It’s my understanding she went to a friend/fellow nurses “hen party”, returned home and committed her first attack the next day. Did her friends hen party possibly trigger feelings of shame/rejection that led her to attack? Then she got a rush from the act or secondary gains of attention/validation/sympathy?
-The post it notes were soooo interesting. It’s my understanding she described them as “journaling”. There is an intensity to the notes. They seem to show intense, dark dysregulated emotions. There are things she wrote repetitively. I sensed anger. Rage even. There was also an element of urgency and disorganization. Its a look into her internal world and the thoughts that recur
-I find myself wondering about her choice of profession. Is it likely she went into the profession with homicidal fantasies?
-Lastly, the childlike and Disney-centric nature of her bedroom was so interesting. It’s as though she was creating a fantasy/curate version of who she is; pure and innocent. In the notes she describes feeling “evil”. Was the way she decorated her external space an attempt to hide these parts of herself? Was it to appear innocent to others? Did something happen in her childhood? So many questions!
Her mother had experienced a difficult birth when having her (only child). One wonders what she heard around that during her childhood “you’re special/chosen”, “you were saved for a reason” ??
LL had said she wanted to be a neo natal nurse since school “to pay back for her own experience as a newborn.”
Hi there thanks for covering this! Lucy is the fourth woman here in the UK to get a full life tariff. The others are Myra Hindley (deceased), Rose West and Joanna Dennehy. ♥
Emma Tustin should also have received a whole life tariff for her prolonged torture and eventual murder of her boyfriend’s six year old son - she is more beast than human being and as she recorded his awful ordeals, unquestionably guilty.
I don’t think the evidence against letby was damning enough to warrant a whole life sentence I do think she’s guilty based on the extreme number of deaths in the two years she was present with the babies but for a whole life term more was needed imo
This abuse of privilege to be around the powerless (children, elderly, people in the hospital) reminds me of the sick women who work as teachers (and we parents TRUST them with our sons/children) and then violate the trust by DATING the students /having an illegal, illicit relationship with them. It’s chilling. Antisocial personality disorder!! Ty Dr. John & Lauren. 🙏🏻❤️
Or filming their OF in the classroom with the kids drawings in the background.🤬
This case reminds you of teachers dating their students? What???
@@eleanoraquitaine2966 you’ve never heard of 34 year old teacher Mary Kay Letournoue with her 12 year old student Villi Fuallau ? She got pregnant with him when he was TWELVE & her student. Had 2 kids with him. Disgusting. There are many more other than her.
@@scarlettohara843this is a huge leap from pedos. She is a serial killer and while they are both nonhuman, what she does there is no comparison. Btw many more men who are teachers abuse. The women just stand out since it is not as common.
WTF?! Who was this that did this?😮
Baby A in this case was killed with insulin. With one nurse taking care of that baby there should have been an investigation right then and there and her license suspended. Yes, someone else could have done it but it should have been investigated. You could get fingerprints from the vial.
She was reported to management by several consultants
AND they were made to write letters of apology to her,
UNBELIEVABLE.
The British public are saying that those managers should
be took to court too.
In my work as a school psychologist I had two occasions where I suspected Munchausen both very disturbing cases of child abuse that no one wanted to believe. Also difficult to prove.
I was thinking Munchausen too John before you mentioned it. BTW I like the word Munchausen too. Such a sad case. As a L&D nurse for 32yrs you grieve when you loose a precious baby in your care and you avoid tragic scenarios like this at all costs!!
This is very hard for me. I have devoted my life’s work to caring for the sick. I can accept that another doctor or a nurse might make a mistake - might be careless - more often might just not be able to save all of your patients - but to intentionally kill your patient?! It’s inconceivable and I am enraged.
I feel so awful for the mother who intuitively knew that something was seriously wrong, as a 1st time mum i would have been an easy mark, its only as you get older and more experienced and confident that you would challenge a Doctor Nurse or a professional. Just horrible its just disgusting.
You're so right and what bothers me is the horrendous guilt these parents will feel.
I had my son in 1996 at 33, a single health care professional, and at the time, babies were being stolen from hospitals. When they wanted to take him to get circumcised, I said not without me.i would not let them take my son away from me for one minute for fear. Someone would take him. Finally, his dad came in and went with him to be curcumcised. Then I wouldn't let no one watch him except my mom.
This is so unbelievable and outrageous. Prayers to the family! Shame on anyone who did not stop her earlier.
What I want to know,Dr.John, is how you can profile and work with people like this for a living. You are a tough man. Much respect.
I think of the futures these precious little ones could have had. This is so heartbreaking. My thoughts and prayers are with the families.
My son had surgery at 10 days old and that was torture for me. I cannot imagine what these moms and babies endured
Malignant narcissists and psychopaths ruin so many lives
I’ve been following this trial because I have a close relative who works at the Countess of Chester. I wanted to point out a couple of things - firstly, I’m fairly sure that the photos of her bedroom are her childhood bedroom at her parent’s house (where she was arrested). They aren’t from her bedroom in Chester.
I don’t know what her ‘adult’ bedroom looked like, but it wouldn’t be strange for the bedroom she had as a teenager to have those quotes on the wall, fairy lights etc.
Also - it seems like she was quite enmeshed with her parents. There is a text message exchange with a friend where the friend says she’s going to nurse in New Zealand. Lucy says something like, ‘I’d love to do that but I could never move that far away from my parents - it was hard enough to move two hours away to work.’ (I’m paraphrasing but that is the gist).
There are a few other things to support this - for example, her father attended a mediation session at the Countess (and he isn’t a lawyer or anything like that.)
The sadist element really just floors me. It is just so incredible sad and tragic to think of a NICU nurse deliberately causing pain and death to a child. Reading the parent’s victim impact statements was just gut wrenching - this is a trauma and pain that will impact generations of those families.
I am also so sorry for the trauma inflicted on her work colleagues - who work so hard and who are so dedicated. ❤❤❤
Oh, Lauren and John! This breaks my heart. Our son was 3 months premature and was in the NICU for 7 1/2 weeks. Those nurses and doctors were the kindest and most caring people in the world. I can’t begin to imagine the horror this person reeked on those families! 😢
This case has inflamed my core. As a nurse for 43 years this case is inconceivable. I always admire the nurses that could work pediatrics and NICU as I could not. I always prided myself in critical thinking and problem solving to be proactive in preventing a patient from crashing. You are always behind the 🎱 ball in reactive mode. As I've been researching this case there have been a lot of points made by others regarding the motive and who Lucy is. She herself was an only child and a premature baby in a NICU. Her parents were doting and treated her special. Lucy used the phrase feeling smothered. Lucy saved handoff sheets with info on her patients. This is something that we are told not to ever do. The hen party was for a coworker who was soon to get married. She seemed to have a lack of the usual relationships as a young adult. People say she had no boyfriends and was not in social circles in school. More of a nerd. As a nurse she felt power and control. Put herself in the spotlight at work. She was very respected by her managers. She caused the incident, created the chaos and used it to get her adrenaline rush and be a master manipulator. It is appalling that these deaths weren't nipped in the bud from the beginning. There were certainly patterns. Sentinel events in US are reported to OSHA. Root cause analysis is done from the get go on any Patient safety event. Hospital administrators dropped the ball and should be held accountable. Police were not brought in for over a year. It was their duty to advocate for patients and families. Agree with your analysis. Wish you would do another episode doing a deeper dive into the psychology. This case is so important. This cannot happen again. You mentioned the books she was reading but didn't get into that. There were 2 books. Would like to hear Dr John's thoughts on that and why the administrators ignored the red flags, and why you think she testified. So glad you did this story. I always learn so much and both of you exude compassion. So glad I became a member.
That Pooh and Piglet ending narrated by Dr John ~ perfect! And sadly also very true 💗💗💗
The grief and unimaginable pain and betrayal these poor parents will continue to go through. Even her answers are all about her!
I’ve been following this case in England. It’s so sad that a nurse would murder premature infants. Horrid
The managers and administrators should be held accountable.
The fact that her friend says she won't believe it UNTIL she confesses and not unless or if she does, tells me everything I need to know
Her friend is as nutty as those all that think she's innocent Guilty as charged She's a Monster
Thank you for covering this. One thing I would like to know is whether she was exclusively targeting first time parents rather than parents who had older children. Just from my own experience as a parent with the first one I was very much learning on the advice of others starting in the hospital, whereas the second time I went by experience and instinct and was much more likely to challenge things i didn't feel were right. Even in hospital first time parents get more support and if she was deliberately targeting them it really is sick. I can only guess that some of the parents were first time parents as ivf was mentioned with some of them and she targeted several multiple births. To think of the struggle these families had to become parents only for this to happen is terrible. It was heartbreaking to hear that some families are so traumatised that they can't try again and can't trust hospitals and other people with authority in schools etc.
U could tell dr John was so passionate about this , this is the first time I’ve seen him so animated usually he’s very laidback
These stories make us nurses who truly care about our patients look bad. We come home and can't sleep, cry, ask ourselves in guilt if we did everything right and still beat ourselves up. I am so so angry about this case.
Like many others I love being here, listening, learning and understanding
Dr Johns quote today…. Wow, one of the most profound he could have chosen…. I love that Lauren has Johns paw and vice versa, the love between you both is truly beautiful, you took her breath away… love, it is everything… to love and be loved is the magic xx ❤
I feel the same. John has the soul of a poet. I broke down just as Lauren did. The quote was so child-like and simple, and so moving. Thank you, thank you, John and Lauren. You strengthen us in ways you cannot know.
@@janetshemaryahu5529 …we often lose the magic as we get older, it is our responsibility to maintain it 🥰… step into the ‘childlike’ or at least look through that lens at points 😂😂. It all comes back to love, love is everything, however, to love is to be exposed and vulnerable, I think that’s the trade off ha ha…. Piglet and poo are lucky indeed, fondest love on this beautiful day xx 😘
I worked in the NICU for many years. It makes me so angry that she did this when we tried so hard to save babies like this.
In the U.K., we are completely gobsmacked by how long she was allowed to go on. It’s a horror.
The third woman to receive a life sentence? Geez, I’m from Texas,that is shocking. How on earth could she just not go to her sentencing? What a despicable coward! This is a terrible case. I’m sooooo sorry for the families.
4th women sentenced to a whole life term. (Joanne Dennehy, Myra Hindley and Rose West are the other three) The vast majority of life sentences in England and Wales (seperate legal systems) are those with a minimum “punishment” phase.
That's a thought..Beverly Allett, also a killer nurse that killed babies. Wasn't she given life without parole? I vaguely remember Myra Hindley going for parole.but i might be just remembering all her attepts to get out.
Myra Hindley kept challenging her whole life term. And died just before the decision that a judge (not a politician) had to decide the punishment phase
Beverley Allit is now eligible to apply to be released on license, with a 30 year minimum punishment phase but as she is in a secure psychiatric hospital. I do not think she will be released anytime soon.
The UK criminal justice systems are heavily focused on rehabilitation which is why you get life with a minimum of x years (for the punishment phase) in most cases. After that they are on license and can so easily be recalled to prison.
It is also why there are so few with whole life orders in English and Welsh Prisons.
@@helenllamaBeverly allit also
David Hill
Thanks for reassuring us here in the UK that despite the horror of this case - it is still the real exception - nevertheless the poor parents - difficult to imagine their devastation - our prayers and thoughts for them.
We are not just looking at self-hatred but anger and jealousy.
Thank you both for being willing to be vulnerable and share your experience with your sweet child. As a mother of two, one of which spent some time in NICU, I am beyond appalled and heartbroken for these families. Thank you for your reporting and I hope and pray that the lawmakers in the UK consider changing their laws to no longer give these murderers the choice to hide away from their crimes and make them stand before their victims and hear their impact statements.
I've been to the hospital multiple time with my mom for various reasons, and each time I stayed there and slept there as I wanted to be sure she was cared for. In some cases, it was because they didn't have enough staff to adequately care for all the patients.
UK resident here, good to see the US talking about this.
People are outraged over this case especially as some of the babies could have been going to school now, if the hospital management had took notice, of the senior Doctors (Consultants) who had suspected that Letby was involved earlier on, instead they were made to apologise to Letby, for making such accusations……….unbelievable, it really does beg belief.
Parents and families, and the many from the medical profession are putting pressure on out Prime Minister to to change the Independent Inquiry to Statutory Public Inquiry, because it holds much more power to bring in witnesses and evidence.
We all want to see, those who ignored the doctor’s complaints, made to be accountable also for further babies deaths and harm, by allowing Lucy Letby to continue to work on the Neonatal Baby Unit.
My son was born 7 weeks early and at 4lbs he thrived while in the Nikki U and we were and are so grateful for the wonderful care he and we received I remember everytime an alarm went off on one of the incubators we stopped breathing for a moment worried it was our little man so when you read the letter I could completely understand how that mother felt knowing that the nurses were so much more qualified than we were so yes we trusted them with our most prized possession. My heart breaks for all those parents
England here.. 🇬🇧 🏴 this is on parr with Harold Shipman!!
The only thing I wish for is for us to have the same rules and sentences as you guys do!!
We are so lenient and it's wrong!!
P.s.. look into Harold Shipman!! You won't believe it!! I'd love to hear doctor babes opinion on him!!!
I first became interested in this phenomena when many years ago I watched a documentary about a young woman was imprisoned and later released, being accused of killing a baby in her care.
Her non-reaction was interpreted evidence of narcissism and guilt. When I saw this I thought, I'd be the first one they threw into the fire, because I would react the same way, calmly answering all the questions and correcting any information that was wrong, just as Lucy did then cracking up behind closed doors.
We live amongst huge amounts of prejudice towards people who are different, despite all the chanting for an equal society.
Society shouldn't on the one hand be praising calm, collective, cold calculation in a crisis and at the same time say they should be put in prison for the same behaviour. We can't have it both ways.
To everyone affected, I send my sympathy and condolences 💐.
Catching this at the end/ but I’ve been watching what I can of this case, and so wanted to believe she couldn’t be a murderer. I’m so happy to hear Dr.John break this down. 💔
You know you can rewind it from the start & not miss a word. ❤
@@TadiKAT I did end up doing that, lol. I just noticed they were live when it was just about over☺️
0:29 0:30 0:31 0:31 Thank you dearest Babe Lauren & Dr Babe John - for giving & presenting difficult Stories of varying sadness to us. 😥❤💕💝
Steph at New South Wales Australia 5:58 🌺🌸🌺🌸
As difficult as this must be you both really give an amazing insight. Thank you so much and bless you. So glad you have your precious boy. Prayers for the families who lost their babies to this monster. I know a family that hired a nicu nurse to work for them that abused their babies. They lived but she escaped much prosecution. She could be this woman’s twin. This really is the most horrible crime.
Thank you for covering this !!! I think that Lucy Letby was jealous of families with children bc she didn’t think she would ever have that experience. That’s why she killed those innocent babies
This case really hits me hard. My precious granddaughter was a 1 lb. 6 oz. preemie and spent about 3 months in NICU. in this situation, families trust the staff completely because we believe that they are keeping these babies alive, we depend upon that and trust that they WANT these precious babies to live. Thank God, my granddaughter had excellent care and has grown to be a healthy, happy and beautiful 14 year old. I really can't thank the NICU staff enough. We families are aware that rhese babies are fragile, dependent and need special care and deep inside we are worried that the tiny baby won't make it, so our need to trust staff is extremely high. I don't think it ever crossed my mind that a nurse in NICU would harm my granddaughter. We needed to trust the nurses because in our minds, they and God were keeping this baby alive
As a mother I would have alerted other staff but that poor parent trusted the nurse and was in total distress😢
The betrayal of this person is wicked. It breaks my ❤️
I'm from England (living in Texas) and was hoping you'd cover this. I saw that she has been compared to Beverly Allitt, another nurse who murdered babies at the hospital where she worked.
Having read the facts of this case, the fact that Lucy was found guilty at all is an absolute travesty. Poor Lucy is paying for the incompetence of others who aren’t honest enough to admit their shortcomings. That the justice system in this country can’t see the truth leaves us knowing that none of us will truly get justice when the system is as corrupt as this.
A psychopath aided and abetted by nhs business image management monsters with no meaningful mission statement. Chance after chance after chance after chance to stop her, covered up by management monsters encouraging her to continue with her grievance procedures against the very doctors who were not listened to. These monsters even gave her incentives and gifts and forced doctors to apologise to her in writing.
This may be the most important point made! Every system needs to have checks and balances built into it bc of the possibility of bad actors and human error.
I find this case so confusing. I work in a Nicu and it’s a huge deal when a baby dies. How did this go on for so long? I find it hard to watch coverage of it. Mind blowing and heartbreaking on so many levels. I’m so sad for these parents.
A lot of people (myself included) thought she should be forced to listen to the victim impact statements. However, in this case I think this woman would enjoy the expressions of pain and suffering of her victims’ families.
Thank you for both of your braveries in covering this, I salute you, it could not have been easy. It is so horrendous that the defenceless, being infants and also elders are targets, as they cannot fight back. My heartfelt sympathy does go out to the innocent families and co-workers. Be brave, be courageous and above all never give up. 11:17
We had a blessed outcome for our child in the NICU many yrs ago but I can't listen to this one. My heart aches for these families.
I’m struggling to process this heartbreaking event too, particularly because 18 years ago my twins were in the NICU and we thought the nurses there were absolute angels (because they were). I also remember from chatting to other parents in the NICU, that so many of the newborn preterm multiple births were IVF babies. This demonic nurse targeted twins and triplets, perhaps because she thought that their innate vulnerability would not raise suspicions. I keep thinking that many of the parents who lost babies, may have been through so much to become parents, and to lose their babies in such a cruel and horrendous way, at the hands of such a cold and calculating maladapted individual is just un fathomable. My heartfelt prayers are with those families. 😢
I'm a retired nurse. I did a catheterization which didn't go to plan!!! I felt TERRIBLE GUILTY and I spent a week berating myself. So I really really can't understand it..AT ALL. She comes over as very very cold and unflappable. I'm SO GLAD YOUR SON GOT WELL...🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Thankyou Thankyou!!
I have followed this case and just said.
Dr John where are you??
We need you on this😅.thankyou both very much.
Lauren hugs & prayers to your baby brother. Thank you both so much for bringing such unbiased and educational information to us❤ I still want to hear more about the whole OUR shenanigans plz!
Here in the US the doctor who was forced to apologize to her would sue the hospital. I wonder if the UK has any laws that would allow him to do so? If so, he should sue to get regain his good name again. The parents should also be able to sue the hospital, especially the parents whose children were murdered after doctors and other nurses began to raise alarm bells about her.
Absolutely! The hospital admins made a horrible decision that cost lives. They should be accountable!
Oh, my god. Baby E's story shattered my heart. Oh, that poor little sweet boy. She tortured him to death! How could you do that to the most innocent and helpless of beings? Oh, my god. All of my love to that poor mother and her family.
I am in my early 40s and I we a premature baby myself. I was 1 pound 15 oz. I went on to work in a caring profession due to care that I received through out my life. I was a care worker. The thought that this could happen to such tiny babies upsets me so much.
Letby also wrote on the same note, "I didn't do anything wrong". How would the psychologist explain that in the context of Freudian self-defence mechanisms (displacement and projection). Don't tell me, 'denial'? Also, the prosecution in the case only showed to the jury, the notes that fitted with their narrative. However, there were many other relevant notes found at her house, that wasn't shown in court.