The major problem is the Ganon echo. Ganondorf has to exist. That means that it HAS to happen after Ocarina of Time since that is the first chronological appearance of Ganondorf.
I actually covered this toward the end of this video, but I have an upcoming project that will go into further detail on my Ganondorf origin theories. Regardless, it’s pretty clear that the Ganondorf seen in TotK predates the one seem in OoT… One theory I’ll eventually publish relates to how the original three split timelines tie into the eventual timeline of BotW and TotK, but it will likely come after my Ganondorf origins video; keep an eye out for those in the coming weeks.
@@The80sRuss, But Minish Cap has a completely separate first king of Hyrule from Tears of the Kingdom. Minish Cap has King Gustav while TotK has King Raaru. Since Ocarina of Time Ganondorf turns into classic pig Ganon and TotK Ganondorf has Calamity Ganon which is a Phantom Ganon and turns into the Demon Dragon, the Ganon Echo has to come from Ocarina of Time Ganondorf due to the Pig Ganon transformation.
@@brandonbaggaley2317 Gustaf is never actually implied to be “the first” king of Hyrule (which I also thought before revisiting it), just a very early one. Perhaps he was a direct descendant of Rauru and Sonya. We know that Hylia took the form of a mortal; perhaps the Rauru we meet in OoT (as a sage) once took the form we see in ToTK, but eventually followed in Hylia’s footsteps to become mortal. Maybe that’s WHY Rauru even became a sage in the first place, either by choice or being chosen… As for Ganon, we’ve seen him take different forms in different eras of entirely different timelines… there’s nothing preventing him, narratively speaking, from being capable of becoming the classic “pig Ganon” as seen in early titles, as well as the beastly form we see in Twilight Princess, AS WELL as Calamity Ganon (or any other form, including the weird marionette from Wind Waker). But to your point, I DO believe we’re dealing with different Ganondorfs achieving different forms. If you check out my other theory video I sort of touch on this idea, but I believe the Ganondorf we see in OoT inherits the demonic pig form FROM his ancestor who was sealed during the imprisoning war. I have a new video in the works detailing my theories on each incarnation of Ganondorf, their origin, and their relationships to Demise, Vaati, and now Null… thanks for your input, and stay tuned! 😁
How to you fit in the clear connections to it being a sequel to A Link to the Past? You explained away Ganondorf just fine, but there are a lot of little tidbits that directly connect EoW to ALttP. For example: the Desert Palace from ALttP is present as a ruin in EoW, crumbled by time.
I’ve mentioned this in a couple other responses now, but with the extreme time-gap between when EoW is placed (in my headcanon) and when aLttP would eventually fall, there’s no reason they couldn’t either be restored, or even be entirely new temples. There are multiple “Temple[s] of Time” after all… Regardless, I may touch on this in my next video (nearly done scripting) which details my headcanon origins of Ganon(dorf) and the Gerudo. Stay tuned, and thanks for your input! 😉
Thoughts as I'm watching: 1. The swallowed by shadow language may fit with how we see the rifts but honestly that kind of thing fits for basically any kind of demonic incursion. The Twilight Realm taking over Hyrule matches, the Dark World encroaching on Hyrule in alttp fits, the OTHER Dark World encroaching on Hyrule in FSA also fits. That kind of thing I think is something that just comes along with the appearance of demons and describes what happens when people get captured/taken by it/them. 2. I know you already say you think the Picori have a relation to the Sacred Realm but even on face value you never get the impression the Picori are just some random race in TMC. It's fairly clear they're aligned with the tribe of the gods/fairies in the same way you could say the Zonai, Fairies, or Tris could be. (I know you're connecting the Tris to the Picori; just pointing out that there ARE examples of gods-aligned beings that help Hyrule and bestow power unto its people and they're typically in the form of Fairies.) 3. It would actually be pretty cool if the Tris chose to stay in Hyrule to be with their savior (Zelda + Link) and therefore end up taking on different forms to reflect their new beings. 4. I think the point about Zelda being able to see Tri when no others could would hold more weight if other children in the game could also unusually see him, but I don't think that happens from what I can remember. It's a little tough to say why Zelda can see Tri but Tri DOES tell Zelda that she's "special" in a way no other people are (he says this after we don't get turned into a statue in the Still World) which implies it's not an age thing and has something to do with who Zelda is or what power she's got. 5. Vaati turning people in statues isn't something only Vaati has done. Bellum has done this to Tetra in PH as well and seems to be related to the taking of Life Force from their hosts. I don't think being turned to stone indicates you've been taken to the Still World. 6. Dark Hyrule Castle may give Still World vibes in term of the sky color but from a story PoV it's pretty clearly not the Still World so there can't be any connection here really. 7. Vaati does pull the ol switcheroo but that happens all the time in the series. Chancellor Cole takes on a Hylian form to advise the royal family in Spirit Tracks, Ganondorf does it as Zelda several times in Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf sort of does it w/ Aghanim in aLttP, and there's been shadow doppelgangers of Link in FSA, OoT, and AoL. Disguising oneself as a friendly person is par for the course with villains in the Zelda series. 8. Vaati's teleport doesn't really look like an echo to be honest. It looks pretty clear that's Vaati himself teleporting in, doing stuff to Link, then teleporting back out. There's been a few things you've connected TMC to with EoW but TMC involving rifts and echoes doesn't really make sense to the story. Hyrule Castle's not in a rift and Vaati's not an echo so I feel like a few of those points didn't really mean much. 9. Even with the Four Sword creating copies, it doesn't make sense for them to be "echoes" specifically. The sword is what is creating the copies and that's not what the Sword of Might is capable of so there's not really any similarities between the two besides them being magical swords capable of repelling evil (which is something a handful of swords do). I'm pretty sure there's even some nuance in the original Japanese text for TMC depicting the copies as "bunshins" which, while i'm not a native speaker, has some notable differences from echoes (I think most important being that when the Four Sword creates copies of Link, it's dividing his Life Force or Spirit up to make those fragments) 10. I kind of disagree a lot on the "Ganon appearing before Ganon isn't a problem" angle. I think it's kind of impossible to disprove the notion that Ganon as an entity existed before Ganondorf did and Ganondorf's transformation after acquiring sufficient power is just him fusing with the already-existing spirit out there, but I also don't think it's one that's really supported either. Demise in Skyward Sword is presented as an entity that is NOT Ganon and is its own being with its own motivations that aren't completely in sync with what Ganon always wants. If anything, I would expect a pre-first-Ganondorf "Ganon", if such a thing existed, to resemble Demise more than later Ganon iterations because it had not yet been fused with Ganondorf before yet. If EoW wanted to present Ganon as being the way you described I think we'd see something else.
My original theory since 2018 has been that the Ganondorf in the castle in tears of the kingdom, was the ORIGINAL GANONDORF, but he’s been sealed away so long another was born later on and he became the new Ganondorf cause Nintendo never had two Ganondorfs exist at once. But then I thought that don’t make sense really and then I thought what if it’s still THE ORIGINAL Ganondorf and he’s been sealed away and keeps coming back right, but this game and ToTK are in a new time like on its own that has had similar events from all the other games cause it’s the same worlds but different timelines existing almost like their own dimensions. That’s why the geography and sentient-being made objects, like the zora tablets, references characters or enemy names from other games, and locations too from other games is cause again same worlds different existences. Created by when link time travels in skyward sword.
This video came up in discussion, and I would like to add a few details. The Hyrulan population is particularly low, and their royal family is not really known among the other races. Null also directly attacks three locations, in order to pose a threat to the three goddesses, indicating that they are still in the world; and we know by the creation story given by The Great Deku Tree, in OoT, that they had departed the world by the time of Ocarina of Time. All indicating a very early placement, just like the one you propose. The Ganon issue, while a sticking point for some, is something we just don't know enough about, and seems more closely tied to the trident, than the actual presence of the "Blue Demon."
I've always kinda read the Goddesses being present as them having been imprisoned by Null back into the world. The lore says that the Goddesses left Hyrule once creation was complete, leaving behind the Triforce at the exact point where they left, and it doesn't seem like they really lingered at all - especially not into the era of the Kingdom of Hyrule.
@@jonesthemoblin1400 If the Goddesses were as active in holding Null's prison together as the game tells us, it explains both the perspective of the legend we are told, and how it fits with the new lore.
The connection between the tri and the piccori is great, but i think the time line is to much of an issue, as if I'm not mistaken, races like the zora and gerudo only show up in the games starting at ocorina. Due to this, and what you started in the video, i find it likely that the picori were forms taken temporarily to influence early hyrule when rifts were uncommon.
@@andrewweiker1482 I have some additional theories regarding how this timeline placement affects this very specific issue; it might not convince you, but I promise it’s compelling 😉 Stay tuned, and thanks for the support!!!
A way to fix the timeline and what has been my headcanon since childhood, is having the 2d games a separate universe. Like paper mario being separate from 2d mario and 3d mario.
Just finished my own theory on this and I have two more points to add. As we defeat Null, all that remains of his shell is a Mask, which is very reminiscent to the sealing masks shown throughout the series, including the masks we see fly out of the chest Vaati breaks open at the beginning of MC, which are also accompanied by purple inky energy substance. The area we see Link and Zelda standing in, after defeating Null, but before the rift is repaired, is bang on for every depiction of the sacred realm.
@RyuuKageDesu love these tidbits! Thanks for the input! I’ll have to check out your video… 🤓 Did you make one, or is this just a personal headcanon thing?
This was full of fun ideas! Subbed 😁 I was initially skeptical, but what you say about the connection between the Picori and the Tris makes sense. I especially like your take on Ganon and Ganondorf being separate entities. People love using pig Ganon as such significant evidence for a game's timeline placement, which always seemed like a silly hill to die on to me. The interpretation of Calamity Ganon's disembodied and non-conscious malevolence as evidence for this is a particularly nice touch!
Also wanted to say that the Hero of Men fascinated me as well when I played MC. I'm still not positive why he has that title. Every other Hero's title is plainly obvious. Every incarnation of Link or unnamed hero saves men. What was significant, or maybe insignificant, about that guy? Perhaps it's to show that he represents the will of the people or to emphasize that he was just a regular dude who stepped up to an oppressor. I don't like either of those tho, the Hero basically always represents the will of the people bc they don't want to die/be enslaved. If it's the latter, then why does he look exactly like Link? 🤔🤔🤔 This is why it's important not to explain too much lore in a game. It's so much more fun to ask questions and form theories! Thanks for getting my gears turning 🤓
I tend to lean toward the belief that, since he represents the first Hero of the bloodline after Skyward Sword (until further retconning occurs 😅), he is relatively unknown to the Kingdom, and therefore regarded with a fairly general title… and in EoW this is arguably reflected by Link’s apparent relationship with Lueberry and and the citizens of Hyrule. He’s a hero of the people, not a “chosen” icon with a known prophesied destiny.
While I disagree with the placement I really enjoyed your video. LTTP, Minish, windwaker are some of my favs. The Minish, ww rito, Tri(s?) are some of my fav groups. I have always enjoyed the korok/kokiri connection and agree that I am sad the koroks went from endearing to a bit annoying. Minions have always been annoying to me so I find ww koroks to be superior 😄
Ganon is gannondorf overpowered/overcharged with the triforce of power, first activated irreversibly after he died in OoT, but a controlled transformation in TP. No where is ganon stated to be separate from gannondorf, only distinct. The botched resurrection in the oracle games implies impaired cognitive ability, not some lack of gannondorf. In aLBW, yuga merges with ganon, in the timeline where it wasn’t a controlled transformation, again, no implied separation. Also, while I believe the first ganon in EoW to be real, it’s a widespread theory that he’s an echo, something impossible until after OoT, being the first incarnation of them. I also think that the TotK flashbacks are after everything else, so he isn’t before OoT. I do think there’s credence to there being a vessel for demise’s hatred, but I think all the villains have been vessels, but gannondorf, later ganon, was an actual incarnation of the curse, rather than a simple vessel. This counteracts the whole “what if scenario” criticism, as the first appearance of an actual incarnation vs a simple vessel should have a greater impact.
I touch on it more in my other Zelda Theory video; check it out if you get a chance, but basically, the events of OoT don’t even occur in the original downfall timeline. At least, not nearly the way they play out in the video game, with time travel and what-have-you. It’s my own inference, but there’s actually evidence to support the theory. Some of which is detailed in my aforementioned video, but I have future installments planned as well. Thanks again for your input, whether you agree or not! 🙏😁
@@The80sRuss just got back from watching that, it was pretty interesting. I think your theories are all internally consistent, other than the ganon being an entirely separate entity from gannondorf; but I think your interpretation of time travel/timelines is mostly novel, insomuch that it isn’t what’s happening from the point of view of the developers, just because no one considered it. I’d direct you to @brosephlacasquevtuber’s video examining time travel methods for how it might work from the devs point of view; but I see no major internal problems with the direction you’re going.
@@sonicfannin6701 I might have to check that out, if only because my interest is piqued by most (if not all) time travel-related discussion… 😅 Thanks for your input (and interest)! 🤓
echos of wisdom comes after link to the past. there are places that are in ruin in eow that were not wrecked in alttp and your a full if you think differently
I already explained this in another comment, but ruins can be restored… and far more easily than some of the other contradictions this placement would create. You can bet I’ll elaborate in future entries 😉
@@The80sRuss this game have also heavy reafferences to oracle games. - Smog and the plant miniboss in the farron woodlands - sea zora and river zora coexisted in oracle ages
I like your connection with the Picori. BUT your timeline placement encounters major issues. Specifically, Echoes of Wisdom shares a map with A Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds. Not only is the map identical (or close enough), but the Desert Palace has been destroyed in the meantime - you can find its ruins. Since Four Swords is contemporaneous with A Link to the Past (following the adventures of the same Link) and directly follows the events of Minish Cap, this would place Echoes of Wisdom significantly after Minish Cap.
The map across all the games can be surprisingly well-traced. I might do a video on this very topic, but there are actually quite a few existing creators with content covering how the map from ALttP could conceivably connect with others, including MC & OoT… which would keep everything in line just fine for this placement. Regarding the ruins, given the distance in time between each game, I see no reason they could not at some point be restored and/or destroyed once again. As for your point about Four Swords, I’m a little confused… Are you claiming the Link from Four Swords is the same Hero as seen in a Link to the Past? If this is the claim, I would certainly assert otherwise, given many contextual clues and some pretty blatant evidence. Even the in-game lore contradicts this pretty heavily. If I’m assuming your claim incorrectly, perhaps I could use a littler more clarification… 😅
@The80sRuss Regarding ALttP and Four Swords, the games are on the same cartridge and share data between them. The only challenge would be if you believed Vaati was an incarnation of Demise. However, Vaati and Ganon coexist during the events of Four Swords Adventure. EDIT: Official timeline says Four Swords is pre-Ocarina of Time. Fair enough. My points below still stand. While in the past maps have shared similarities between different games in a "if you kind of squint at it" way, the Echoes of Wisdom map is literally the same map to a level of detail only seen between LttP & LBW and Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Specifically, Hyrule Castle, Hyrule Field, Lake Hylia, Eternal Forest, the Graveyard, Eastern Gerudo Desert, and Suthorn Prairie are identical, with the surrounding areas expanded upon. Kakariko village has moved and there are ruins in its former location, and you can find visit several of the temples from LttP/LBW.
The beginning time of null Creation of the world Era of the goddess The improvising war (hylia vs demise) Era of sky - skyward sword (every species might have gone up ) The birth of Zelda : incarnation of the goddess The defeat of demise The first colony and settlement At some point I truly believe that loftwings become horses. The sacred gift of hylia was the loftwing within skyloft (wings for the sky) and so the gift should continue on land (legs for land) ~Timeline split~ 1** the master sword timeline** 2.** the four sword timeline *** ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MasterSword timelines Tears of the kingdom's pasts the creation of the proper kingdom The Interloper war the Hylian civil war Ocarina of time ~Timeline split~ 1.1 Adult timeline 1.2 Child timeline ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Child timeline 1.2 the hero is sent back in time Majora's mask Link takes the master sword with him and runs to prevent ganondorf from getting to the sacred realm while also searching for his friend navi (which may or may not be a pocket dimension like lorule or a dream world like links awakening) Drama with ganondorf and his imprisonment into the twilight realm ( Which I am like convinced in the still world/nulls void with like a barrier or something?) Marriage to malon the founding or moving to Orion village We also know that link joins the royal hylian army and dies during what seems to be another war ( what can kill link who knows) Twilight princess And possibly hyrule warriors the wii U game from 2014 (((Which if this is right and Twilight princess link also joined the royal hylian army which remained tradition in this timeline. Oot link, twp link, Hyrule warriors and breath of the wild all have link’s serving in the military (the blue eyed beast, the blue caped captain, and the blue champions tunic feels really similar to me ))))) (((The dragon cycle established by zelda could also merge these 2 timelines. (child and adult ))) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adult timeline 1.1 (prime universe ) Ganondorf is revived // null creates some issues The goddesses intervene a major world disaster - the great flood Wind Waker Spirit tracks The re-creation of a proper kingdom Phantom hourglass (malladus is literally made up from malice released by gannondorf ) the ocean drains fully - into the underdark the creation of the super tech kingdom of hyrule - (Era of the divine beast) (with spirit tracks we already see that this timeline is interested in technology ) Breath of the wilds past the calamity Breath of the wild Tears of the kingdom and the end of the dragon cycle ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Timeline 2 Fourswords (no tears of the kingdoms past here, i dont think ) The first settlements Era of force- hero of men (echoes of wisdom placement theory 1) Minish cap Four swords Four Swords adventures (the foraging of the goddess sword into the 4 sword ) Fall of the kingdom Link 1 and 2 Rebuilding the kingdom Triforce heroes A link to the past Oracle of season and ages Links adventure - (echoes of wisdom placement theory 2, happing at the same time) Link between worlds Echoes of wisdom (placement theory 3) (((THIS IS ALL THE SAME BADASS LINK Connection between link between worlds and echoes of wisdom. lorule is crumpling into the nulls void link travels through nulls void to get between hyrule and lorule. and both seem to be facing a similar issue and they use the same map For link's awakening his little dream could be what he experiences when I side the still world/ possessed All we know is that link in echoes of wisdom is well known for being a hero.))) www.reddit.com/user/Greenhoneyomi/
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![8 Theories From Echoes Of Wisdom [ZELDA THEORY]](/img/tr.png)
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The major problem is the Ganon echo. Ganondorf has to exist. That means that it HAS to happen after Ocarina of Time since that is the first chronological appearance of Ganondorf.
I actually covered this toward the end of this video, but I have an upcoming project that will go into further detail on my Ganondorf origin theories.
Regardless, it’s pretty clear that the Ganondorf seen in TotK predates the one seem in OoT…
One theory I’ll eventually publish relates to how the original three split timelines tie into the eventual timeline of BotW and TotK, but it will likely come after my Ganondorf origins video; keep an eye out for those in the coming weeks.
@@The80sRuss, But Minish Cap has a completely separate first king of Hyrule from Tears of the Kingdom. Minish Cap has King Gustav while TotK has King Raaru. Since Ocarina of Time Ganondorf turns into classic pig Ganon and TotK Ganondorf has Calamity Ganon which is a Phantom Ganon and turns into the Demon Dragon, the Ganon Echo has to come from Ocarina of Time Ganondorf due to the Pig Ganon transformation.
@@brandonbaggaley2317 Gustaf is never actually implied to be “the first” king of Hyrule (which I also thought before revisiting it), just a very early one. Perhaps he was a direct descendant of Rauru and Sonya.
We know that Hylia took the form of a mortal; perhaps the Rauru we meet in OoT (as a sage) once took the form we see in ToTK, but eventually followed in Hylia’s footsteps to become mortal. Maybe that’s WHY Rauru even became a sage in the first place, either by choice or being chosen…
As for Ganon, we’ve seen him take different forms in different eras of entirely different timelines… there’s nothing preventing him, narratively speaking, from being capable of becoming the classic “pig Ganon” as seen in early titles, as well as the beastly form we see in Twilight Princess, AS WELL as Calamity Ganon (or any other form, including the weird marionette from Wind Waker).
But to your point, I DO believe we’re dealing with different Ganondorfs achieving different forms.
If you check out my other theory video I sort of touch on this idea, but I believe the Ganondorf we see in OoT inherits the demonic pig form FROM his ancestor who was sealed during the imprisoning war.
I have a new video in the works detailing my theories on each incarnation of Ganondorf, their origin, and their relationships to Demise, Vaati, and now Null… thanks for your input, and stay tuned! 😁
How to you fit in the clear connections to it being a sequel to A Link to the Past?
You explained away Ganondorf just fine, but there are a lot of little tidbits that directly connect EoW to ALttP.
For example: the Desert Palace from ALttP is present as a ruin in EoW, crumbled by time.
I’ve mentioned this in a couple other responses now, but with the extreme time-gap between when EoW is placed (in my headcanon) and when aLttP would eventually fall, there’s no reason they couldn’t either be restored, or even be entirely new temples.
There are multiple “Temple[s] of Time” after all…
Regardless, I may touch on this in my next video (nearly done scripting) which details my headcanon origins of Ganon(dorf) and the Gerudo.
Stay tuned, and thanks for your input! 😉
Thoughts as I'm watching:
1. The swallowed by shadow language may fit with how we see the rifts but honestly that kind of thing fits for basically any kind of demonic incursion. The Twilight Realm taking over Hyrule matches, the Dark World encroaching on Hyrule in alttp fits, the OTHER Dark World encroaching on Hyrule in FSA also fits. That kind of thing I think is something that just comes along with the appearance of demons and describes what happens when people get captured/taken by it/them.
2. I know you already say you think the Picori have a relation to the Sacred Realm but even on face value you never get the impression the Picori are just some random race in TMC. It's fairly clear they're aligned with the tribe of the gods/fairies in the same way you could say the Zonai, Fairies, or Tris could be. (I know you're connecting the Tris to the Picori; just pointing out that there ARE examples of gods-aligned beings that help Hyrule and bestow power unto its people and they're typically in the form of Fairies.)
3. It would actually be pretty cool if the Tris chose to stay in Hyrule to be with their savior (Zelda + Link) and therefore end up taking on different forms to reflect their new beings.
4. I think the point about Zelda being able to see Tri when no others could would hold more weight if other children in the game could also unusually see him, but I don't think that happens from what I can remember. It's a little tough to say why Zelda can see Tri but Tri DOES tell Zelda that she's "special" in a way no other people are (he says this after we don't get turned into a statue in the Still World) which implies it's not an age thing and has something to do with who Zelda is or what power she's got.
5. Vaati turning people in statues isn't something only Vaati has done. Bellum has done this to Tetra in PH as well and seems to be related to the taking of Life Force from their hosts. I don't think being turned to stone indicates you've been taken to the Still World.
6. Dark Hyrule Castle may give Still World vibes in term of the sky color but from a story PoV it's pretty clearly not the Still World so there can't be any connection here really.
7. Vaati does pull the ol switcheroo but that happens all the time in the series. Chancellor Cole takes on a Hylian form to advise the royal family in Spirit Tracks, Ganondorf does it as Zelda several times in Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf sort of does it w/ Aghanim in aLttP, and there's been shadow doppelgangers of Link in FSA, OoT, and AoL. Disguising oneself as a friendly person is par for the course with villains in the Zelda series.
8. Vaati's teleport doesn't really look like an echo to be honest. It looks pretty clear that's Vaati himself teleporting in, doing stuff to Link, then teleporting back out. There's been a few things you've connected TMC to with EoW but TMC involving rifts and echoes doesn't really make sense to the story. Hyrule Castle's not in a rift and Vaati's not an echo so I feel like a few of those points didn't really mean much.
9. Even with the Four Sword creating copies, it doesn't make sense for them to be "echoes" specifically. The sword is what is creating the copies and that's not what the Sword of Might is capable of so there's not really any similarities between the two besides them being magical swords capable of repelling evil (which is something a handful of swords do). I'm pretty sure there's even some nuance in the original Japanese text for TMC depicting the copies as "bunshins" which, while i'm not a native speaker, has some notable differences from echoes (I think most important being that when the Four Sword creates copies of Link, it's dividing his Life Force or Spirit up to make those fragments)
10. I kind of disagree a lot on the "Ganon appearing before Ganon isn't a problem" angle. I think it's kind of impossible to disprove the notion that Ganon as an entity existed before Ganondorf did and Ganondorf's transformation after acquiring sufficient power is just him fusing with the already-existing spirit out there, but I also don't think it's one that's really supported either. Demise in Skyward Sword is presented as an entity that is NOT Ganon and is its own being with its own motivations that aren't completely in sync with what Ganon always wants. If anything, I would expect a pre-first-Ganondorf "Ganon", if such a thing existed, to resemble Demise more than later Ganon iterations because it had not yet been fused with Ganondorf before yet. If EoW wanted to present Ganon as being the way you described I think we'd see something else.
My original theory since 2018 has been that the Ganondorf in the castle in tears of the kingdom, was the ORIGINAL GANONDORF, but he’s been sealed away so long another was born later on and he became the new Ganondorf cause Nintendo never had two Ganondorfs exist at once. But then I thought that don’t make sense really and then I thought what if it’s still THE ORIGINAL Ganondorf and he’s been sealed away and keeps coming back right, but this game and ToTK are in a new time like on its own that has had similar events from all the other games cause it’s the same worlds but different timelines existing almost like their own dimensions. That’s why the geography and sentient-being made objects, like the zora tablets, references characters or enemy names from other games, and locations too from other games is cause again same worlds different existences. Created by when link time travels in skyward sword.
This video came up in discussion, and I would like to add a few details. The Hyrulan population is particularly low, and their royal family is not really known among the other races. Null also directly attacks three locations, in order to pose a threat to the three goddesses, indicating that they are still in the world; and we know by the creation story given by The Great Deku Tree, in OoT, that they had departed the world by the time of Ocarina of Time. All indicating a very early placement, just like the one you propose.
The Ganon issue, while a sticking point for some, is something we just don't know enough about, and seems more closely tied to the trident, than the actual presence of the "Blue Demon."
I've always kinda read the Goddesses being present as them having been imprisoned by Null back into the world. The lore says that the Goddesses left Hyrule once creation was complete, leaving behind the Triforce at the exact point where they left, and it doesn't seem like they really lingered at all - especially not into the era of the Kingdom of Hyrule.
@@jonesthemoblin1400 If the Goddesses were as active in holding Null's prison together as the game tells us, it explains both the perspective of the legend we are told, and how it fits with the new lore.
The connection between the tri and the piccori is great, but i think the time line is to much of an issue, as if I'm not mistaken, races like the zora and gerudo only show up in the games starting at ocorina. Due to this, and what you started in the video, i find it likely that the picori were forms taken temporarily to influence early hyrule when rifts were uncommon.
@@andrewweiker1482 I have some additional theories regarding how this timeline placement affects this very specific issue; it might not convince you, but I promise it’s compelling 😉
Stay tuned, and thanks for the support!!!
A way to fix the timeline and what has been my headcanon since childhood, is having the 2d games a separate universe. Like paper mario being separate from 2d mario and 3d mario.
Just finished my own theory on this and I have two more points to add. As we defeat Null, all that remains of his shell is a Mask, which is very reminiscent to the sealing masks shown throughout the series, including the masks we see fly out of the chest Vaati breaks open at the beginning of MC, which are also accompanied by purple inky energy substance. The area we see Link and Zelda standing in, after defeating Null, but before the rift is repaired, is bang on for every depiction of the sacred realm.
@RyuuKageDesu love these tidbits! Thanks for the input!
I’ll have to check out your video… 🤓
Did you make one, or is this just a personal headcanon thing?
@@The80sRuss A forum thread.
@@The80sRuss Zelda
@@The80sRuss Dungeon
@@The80sRuss RUclips hates forum site names
This was full of fun ideas! Subbed 😁
I was initially skeptical, but what you say about the connection between the Picori and the Tris makes sense. I especially like your take on Ganon and Ganondorf being separate entities. People love using pig Ganon as such significant evidence for a game's timeline placement, which always seemed like a silly hill to die on to me. The interpretation of Calamity Ganon's disembodied and non-conscious malevolence as evidence for this is a particularly nice touch!
Also wanted to say that the Hero of Men fascinated me as well when I played MC. I'm still not positive why he has that title. Every other Hero's title is plainly obvious. Every incarnation of Link or unnamed hero saves men. What was significant, or maybe insignificant, about that guy? Perhaps it's to show that he represents the will of the people or to emphasize that he was just a regular dude who stepped up to an oppressor. I don't like either of those tho, the Hero basically always represents the will of the people bc they don't want to die/be enslaved. If it's the latter, then why does he look exactly like Link? 🤔🤔🤔
This is why it's important not to explain too much lore in a game. It's so much more fun to ask questions and form theories! Thanks for getting my gears turning 🤓
I tend to lean toward the belief that, since he represents the first Hero of the bloodline after Skyward Sword (until further retconning occurs 😅), he is relatively unknown to the Kingdom, and therefore regarded with a fairly general title… and in EoW this is arguably reflected by Link’s apparent relationship with Lueberry and and the citizens of Hyrule. He’s a hero of the people, not a “chosen” icon with a known prophesied destiny.
this was very well done leaving you a like
While I disagree with the placement I really enjoyed your video. LTTP, Minish, windwaker are some of my favs. The Minish, ww rito, Tri(s?) are some of my fav groups. I have always enjoyed the korok/kokiri connection and agree that I am sad the koroks went from endearing to a bit annoying. Minions have always been annoying to me so I find ww koroks to be superior 😄
@@annamae4761 Thanks for your input! And stay tuned for the video I’m dropping later today… it’s Ganon-themed 😉🤓
Ganon is gannondorf overpowered/overcharged with the triforce of power, first activated irreversibly after he died in OoT, but a controlled transformation in TP. No where is ganon stated to be separate from gannondorf, only distinct. The botched resurrection in the oracle games implies impaired cognitive ability, not some lack of gannondorf. In aLBW, yuga merges with ganon, in the timeline where it wasn’t a controlled transformation, again, no implied separation.
Also, while I believe the first ganon in EoW to be real, it’s a widespread theory that he’s an echo, something impossible until after OoT, being the first incarnation of them. I also think that the TotK flashbacks are after everything else, so he isn’t before OoT.
I do think there’s credence to there being a vessel for demise’s hatred, but I think all the villains have been vessels, but gannondorf, later ganon, was an actual incarnation of the curse, rather than a simple vessel. This counteracts the whole “what if scenario” criticism, as the first appearance of an actual incarnation vs a simple vessel should have a greater impact.
I touch on it more in my other Zelda Theory video; check it out if you get a chance, but basically, the events of OoT don’t even occur in the original downfall timeline. At least, not nearly the way they play out in the video game, with time travel and what-have-you. It’s my own inference, but there’s actually evidence to support the theory. Some of which is detailed in my aforementioned video, but I have future installments planned as well.
Thanks again for your input, whether you agree or not! 🙏😁
@@The80sRuss just got back from watching that, it was pretty interesting. I think your theories are all internally consistent, other than the ganon being an entirely separate entity from gannondorf; but I think your interpretation of time travel/timelines is mostly novel, insomuch that it isn’t what’s happening from the point of view of the developers, just because no one considered it.
I’d direct you to @brosephlacasquevtuber’s video examining time travel methods for how it might work from the devs point of view; but I see no major internal problems with the direction you’re going.
@@sonicfannin6701 I might have to check that out, if only because my interest is piqued by most (if not all) time travel-related discussion… 😅
Thanks for your input (and interest)! 🤓
It wasn't irreversible in Ocarina of Time, when he gets sealed away he becomes Ganondorf again. And he stays that way all of Wind Waker.
@ he only had the triforce of power before wind waker, the irreversibility was from all possession of all 3, which is the downfall timeline
Tris and Picori might as well be best buddies and use their powers for good 😊
echos of wisdom comes after link to the past. there are places that are in ruin in eow that were not wrecked in alttp and your a full if you think differently
I already explained this in another comment, but ruins can be restored… and far more easily than some of the other contradictions this placement would create.
You can bet I’ll elaborate in future entries 😉
@@The80sRuss this game have also heavy reafferences to oracle games.
- Smog and the plant miniboss in the farron woodlands
- sea zora and river zora coexisted in oracle ages
I like your connection with the Picori. BUT your timeline placement encounters major issues.
Specifically, Echoes of Wisdom shares a map with A Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds. Not only is the map identical (or close enough), but the Desert Palace has been destroyed in the meantime - you can find its ruins.
Since Four Swords is contemporaneous with A Link to the Past (following the adventures of the same Link) and directly follows the events of Minish Cap, this would place Echoes of Wisdom significantly after Minish Cap.
The map across all the games can be surprisingly well-traced. I might do a video on this very topic, but there are actually quite a few existing creators with content covering how the map from ALttP could conceivably connect with others, including MC & OoT… which would keep everything in line just fine for this placement.
Regarding the ruins, given the distance in time between each game, I see no reason they could not at some point be restored and/or destroyed once again.
As for your point about Four Swords, I’m a little confused…
Are you claiming the Link from Four Swords is the same Hero as seen in a Link to the Past?
If this is the claim, I would certainly assert otherwise, given many contextual clues and some pretty blatant evidence. Even the in-game lore contradicts this pretty heavily.
If I’m assuming your claim incorrectly, perhaps I could use a littler more clarification… 😅
@The80sRuss Regarding ALttP and Four Swords, the games are on the same cartridge and share data between them. The only challenge would be if you believed Vaati was an incarnation of Demise. However, Vaati and Ganon coexist during the events of Four Swords Adventure.
EDIT: Official timeline says Four Swords is pre-Ocarina of Time. Fair enough. My points below still stand.
While in the past maps have shared similarities between different games in a "if you kind of squint at it" way, the Echoes of Wisdom map is literally the same map to a level of detail only seen between LttP & LBW and Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Specifically, Hyrule Castle, Hyrule Field, Lake Hylia, Eternal Forest, the Graveyard, Eastern Gerudo Desert, and Suthorn Prairie are identical, with the surrounding areas expanded upon. Kakariko village has moved and there are ruins in its former location, and you can find visit several of the temples from LttP/LBW.
The beginning
time of null
Creation of the world
Era of the goddess
The improvising war (hylia vs demise)
Era of sky - skyward sword
(every species might have gone up )
The birth of Zelda : incarnation of the goddess
The defeat of demise
The first colony and settlement
At some point I truly believe that loftwings become horses. The sacred gift of hylia was the loftwing within skyloft (wings for the sky) and so the gift should continue on land (legs for land)
~Timeline split~
1** the master sword timeline**
2.** the four sword timeline ***
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MasterSword timelines
Tears of the kingdom's pasts
the creation of the proper kingdom
The Interloper war
the Hylian civil war
Ocarina of time
~Timeline split~
1.1 Adult timeline
1.2 Child timeline
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Child timeline 1.2
the hero is sent back in time
Majora's mask
Link takes the master sword with him and runs to prevent ganondorf from getting to the sacred realm
while also searching for his friend navi
(which may or may not be a pocket dimension like lorule or a dream world like links awakening)
Drama with ganondorf and his imprisonment into the twilight realm
( Which I am like convinced in the still world/nulls void with like a barrier or something?)
Marriage to malon
the founding or moving to Orion village
We also know that link joins the royal hylian army
and dies during what seems to be another war
( what can kill link who knows)
Twilight princess
And possibly
hyrule warriors
the wii U game from 2014
(((Which if this is right and Twilight princess link also joined the royal hylian army which remained tradition in this timeline.
Oot link, twp link, Hyrule warriors and breath of the wild all have link’s serving in the military
(the blue eyed beast, the blue caped captain, and the blue champions tunic feels really similar to me )))))
(((The dragon cycle established by zelda could also merge these 2 timelines. (child and adult )))
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adult timeline 1.1 (prime universe )
Ganondorf is revived // null creates some issues
The goddesses intervene
a major world disaster - the great flood
Wind Waker
Spirit tracks
The re-creation of a proper kingdom
Phantom hourglass
(malladus is literally made up from malice released by gannondorf )
the ocean drains fully - into the underdark
the creation of the super tech kingdom of hyrule - (Era of the divine beast)
(with spirit tracks we already see that this timeline is interested in technology )
Breath of the wilds past
the calamity
Breath of the wild
Tears of the kingdom and the end of the dragon cycle
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timeline 2 Fourswords
(no tears of the kingdoms past here, i dont think )
The first settlements
Era of force- hero of men
(echoes of wisdom placement theory 1)
Minish cap
Four swords
Four Swords adventures
(the foraging of the goddess sword into the 4 sword )
Fall of the kingdom
Link 1 and 2
Rebuilding the kingdom
Triforce heroes
A link to the past
Oracle of season and ages
Links adventure - (echoes of wisdom placement theory 2, happing at the same time)
Link between worlds
Echoes of wisdom (placement theory 3)
(((THIS IS ALL THE SAME BADASS LINK
Connection between link between worlds and echoes of wisdom.
lorule is crumpling into the nulls void
link travels through nulls void to get between hyrule and lorule.
and both seem to be facing a similar issue and they use the same map
For link's awakening his little dream could be what he experiences when I side the still world/ possessed
All we know is that link in echoes of wisdom is well known for being a hero.)))
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