@Rosamund Powell In Star Trek Earth is indeed paradise. But when Sisko said "paradise" he did not mean earth particularly, he meant peace and prosperity. In the beginning, DS9 was always in the middle of political, ethnical and religious conflicts, the poverty of Bajor was increasing those conflicts. Later on, DS9 was in the epicentre of war. Look on our world today. Since we have big crises, uncertainty and big changes of the way we live, civilisation got out of balance.
If we're including Archer's temporary piracy gig, then you need to include Captain Ransom's torture and murder of multiple extradimensional beings to power his ship.
I think it's because Ransom's actions had no official sanction. When Starfleet ordered Archer to destroy the Xindi weapon they made it clear that anything goes.
@@miketaterparker I'm pretty sure SFC was in on the plan to seduce the Senator. But even if they weren't I still don't think that one should count either. SFC didnt sanction the murder and all Sisko did was cover it up.
@@trajan74 Starfleet Intelligence might've known about the Sisko-Garak plot, maybe even helped out behind the scenes. But not Starfleet Command. If things went bad they'd sacrifice one errant Commander and one Cardassian criminal, not valuable Flag Officers in time of war. They know that the less they know the better.
“In the Pale Moonlight” is a damn fine episode and presents quite a moral conundrum for Sisko. This episode is one of the main reasons I adore Deep Space Nine so much.
Probably my favorite DS9 episode, not because of the morality problems for Sisko...but as he's speaking into the log, he's also trying to justify his actions to you, the viewer.
In Janeway's defense! This new species seemed pretty set on wiping EVERYBODY out, they didn't exactly have a lot of options. Least thats the impression that Kes and the writers gave us. Then a bit while later we learn, oh! They're not that bad! It was all a misunderstanding! A.k.a they had different writers pretty much doing whatever they wanted.
Sorry not going to defend Janeways ignorance. Anyone with half a brain would know the borg started the fight with another species. Then to suddenly act surprised was dumb. Chakotay was right and his plan saved her ass or else they would all be assimilated.
In total agreement with you there as species 8472 planed to launch a war of extermination upon all the species in star trek galaxy starting with the borg and delta quadrant, so Janeway doing a deal with the devil you know; the borg to save their reality/realm and defeat species 8472 is nothing more than reasonable self defence. Particularly as they went no further than creating a weapon that allowed them to fight effectively and used that as a deterrent to force them to call off their invasion.
While I agree with a couple of these things, the presenter seems to call "self defence" evil on a couple of occasions. Starfleet's lofty goals would mean precisely squat if the Federation is wiped out by an enemy. There's a fundamental difference between trying to get the Ba'ku's "nice to have" de-aging technology and stopping the Klingons (or the Dominion, or the Borg) from destroying the Federation.
In #4 OP left out one small detail: Species 8472's Catchhrase "The weak will perish". Once done with the Borg, 8472 intended to purge all life in the Milky Way Galaxy. JANEWAY, knowing this, Chose the lesser of two evils while looking to get her ship clear of Borg space.
@@surorov1 I get that. History is written by the victors, and such. I suspect it would be most gratifying to see it fall in some kind of twisted episode based on a federation lie or propaganda that sent it all spiraling into its own demise, and then give rise to the terran empire seizing control at the right moment. Now humans are the aggressors, and the rest of the broken federation are frightened down to the core of their spleens. Begin season one of THE TERRANS. Bring up all the human vices and faults, then have them defeated repeatedly in a witty fashion to remind them of their place. Might be fun having the shoe on the other foot.
'Picard' is the Apocalype Timeline Future. The SHIT is just that it's presented to us as the ONLY freaking Timeline! Everything would be fine (no actually it's still seriously bad writing and i hate the Show for all it is) if they would have stated that! And given us a Good Timeline! One that makes Sense and isnt just obviously meant to be 'Oh, look, it's so terrible, but don't worry, Superman will safe us'-Shit. God, 'Picard' was so bad and if we ever get more Star Trek it will surely be more of this Nonsense. AND DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON ARCHERS FUCKED UP ADVENTURES! Some of his Episodes are like Acid Dreams! LITERALLY!
Bear in mind, most of Starfleet likely wasn't aware of this, in fact it's safe to assume that this deal was organised mainly under the authority of Admiral Quinn. While it's not a good chapter in their history, it hardly reflects on Starfleet as a whole
Certainly not in all of Star Trek, but possibly the best moment in DS9 I think belongs to Garak. Garak (to Sisko): "...and if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha quadrant and all it cost, was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Species 8472 wasn't just going to stop with the Borg though.They were going to destroy everything. Janeway made the deal as it was the lesser of two evils, as the Borg can be stopped, but 8472 was seemingly unstoppable.
Yep. They could have included the episode Tuvix instead as she basically kills someone who was pleading for their own life and that one was pretty iffy given they probably could have figured something else out given more time and the transporter tech.
@@wallacewallaby5782 Yep good one, and we have the similar Story of Enterprise season 3 with Trip getting injured badly and Archer desides to grow a clone of him "Sims". Sure, they though he would survive, and live and die naturally within a cople of days afterwards, but Phlox found out, Sims wouldnt survive. In the same time, Sims found out that there might be a way for him to grow normally and old, and in sense he is Trip. But Archers still desides Trip is more important that SIms.... tough and maybe evil choise.
1: Is creating a tool that could destroy entire populations evil in spite of the intention for colonization or because of it? Is creating a warp core evil because it could be used to annihilate planets? Was creating Friendship One evil? No, it's using it for destructive purposes that is evil. 2: Archer isn't Starfleet personified - He is one man. Starfleet didn't steal a warp coil, Archer made the decision. His crew is also not Starfleet personified - They are only a few people. This act of piracy is not Starfleet's fault. 3: That one is difficult to defend, and honestly, I don't want to do that for Discovery anyway... But look down to 5. 4: Similar to 2, Sisko's act was specifically pointed out to NOT be done with any consent from Starfleet or the Federation. Not something Starfleet did, just a few officers. I'm sorry, are we blaming Starfleet for everything their officers do? Are the actions of Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix all of Starfleet's fault too, or are we ignoring that because this time they found out and sent Picard to stop him? 5: Genocide of an enemy that has specifically declared their intent to genocide your species first, and has demonstrated the capacity and willingness to do so, doesn't count as self-defense? No? Well I guess we're gonna deal in absolutes. 6: 2 and 4 again??? Really?? ANOTHER blame shift from one person to an organization they have CLEARLY gone against in this course of action??? FFS. 7: 5 again, wow, changing it up. I'm sorry, what were the stated war goals of Species 8472? Purge the galaxy? I feel like blowing up a few of their ships to spook them out of war is pretty justified in that situation. Intermission 09:27 - Excuse me?!?! You literally just played the clip where CHAKOTAY finds that out, not JANEWAY, are you fucking kidding me???? I'm sorry, continue. 8: Section 31 isn't Starfleet. You can argue the corruption throughout Starfleet all you like, but the fact that all those Admirals supposedly in S31 couldn't just do it through Starfleet Intelligence shows that Starfleet couldn't - and DIDN'T - attempt to introduce a plague into the Founders. So I guess that's 4/10 that are shifting blame from the actually guilty party to Starfleet. Really good job. 9: No I do agree with this one. It was the whole point of the episode, after all, so, at least you do know how to pay attention. 10: Annnnnnd you ruined it. Literally. Half, guys. Half of your "Starfleet's evil acts" were NOT Starfleet.
But Starfleet condoned all of it...! Not one person was ever punished for their acts...! In most cases, if Starfleet didn’t come right out and tell them make this happen by any means necessary, then it was implied...
@@troystutsman1400 How would you know that? Its never addressed in the episodes what Starfleet's reaction is. In most cases, these examples are never brought up again. Additonally, we can also prove that Starfleet is unaware of some of these, such as Sisko's attempts to bring the Romulans into the war.
@@troystutsman1400 no starfleet never autherised some of these actions, as for punishment, who where they going to punish. in several epesodes involving Section 31 Sisco says afterwards....... "they dont exsist there a no records of the indviduls involved and all security footage has been deleted" WTF is supposted to happen next? Theres no everdance and no clues
@mjkalasky I don't know that I would argue Archer's actions, even for a "greater good", were right. I would argue that, if he had gotten another warp coil and taken it to the ship he stole from, fixing the damage he'd done would maybe have been a good thing. As for Measure of a Man, again, the whole point of the episode.
5. Founders declared war on the federation almost a year after s31/starfleet infected odo. Dominion in jemadar requested that the alpha quadrant stay out of the gama quadrant because they viewed it as a violation of their space and it is. What they do allow cardassians/romulans to try and genocide the dominion in season 3. Sisko was literally told do nothing while they potentially genocide the founders. This only push the dominion into heavier actions. Starfleet command was against odo from the very beginning. Several episodes in s1 and s2 they wanted to force odo out of chief of security. Section 31 is basically Starfleet. There are members of s 31 in the highest branches of Starfleet and federation. Sisko own words "starfleet says they are appalled at the idea of s31 but arent doing anything to stop it. Admiral ross openly supported s31 plans in the romulan episode.
Well, that's true but as I remember, David Marcus was reluctant to see the Genesis project in Starfleet hands. Such distrust in the military means something...
@@estudiordl From a man who himself invented a weapon of mass destruction using an illegal substance which every ethical scientist in the galaxy denounced as dangerously unpredictable. I think if we're fair, the Marcus's downplayed the negative aspects of Genesis.
@@lawrence5584 I didn't see that, so true. One would think after 200 years scientist would know if you are splitting the atom again, someone would make the bomb, again. 😏😉
"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it." -Michael Eddington, DS9
It's an interesting criticism of the United States. However in this case the maquis is not the group of settlers who left the Federation. It's the paramilitary guerilla organisation killing cardassians and giving cardassians the opportunity to threaten the truce between Cardassia and the Federation. The maquis are risking forcing war on the Federation to keep or possibly in retaliation for losing some planets of their own. It's selfish and somewhat materialistic. Perhaps also a criticism of some aspects of US culture. I understand why George Washington sought independence for his adopted country but a fight against injustice does not a just country make. In the pursuit of freedom it became acceptable to bear arms against others to protect what was yours. But what if it was not really yours in the first place? What if you have plenty and allow others to starve through no fault of their own? Does personal freedom Trump a duty to help and protect others, all others regardless of dividing lines invented to justify selfish values?
@@limburgishmapping7166 Yup. They gave them the colonies and told the colonist they had to leave and settle somewhere else that the Federation would choose or allow or stay and live under Cardassian rule with out Federation assistance.
My favorite Star Trek: Voyager episode. It felt good to f see the Borg run away from a species they couldn't assimilate for once. Species 8472 was badass.
just good? BEST ST episode EVER I'd say. Has the kind of drama and deepness, which can easily rival the most hardcore 50's noir. The only thing it is missing is sepia filter and fedoras...
When Captain Sisco says, "I can live with it", and tries to get comfortable on the sofa and says it again, you know he just isn't comfortable at all with the chain of events he set in motion. That is a great episode.
This list can be justified as necessary: 10. Genesis device was created to terraform and create life not destroy it. It can be used for evil but, that’s not its purpose. A warp core can blow up a planet, those are WMDs too then. 9. There was no alternative. If Captain Archer didn’t steal the coil then they would fail the mission which means many lives lost. They weighed up the moral implications, you did not. 8. That was an all out war and they had a weapon that would win, I’d consider it as an option since freedom was at stake. Granted it came with collateral damage but that may be a necessity to win. 7. I cannot justify this one well. Though I agree with the Maquis’ overall motives, Sisko had to deal with a terrorist quickly and so called his bluff. 6. It’s not genocide, the Borg aren’t a race, they’re an infectious cybernetic disease. Though a drone can get regain its humanity, these are through unique conditions thus making it impossible to rehabilitate all other drones to be effective. They should’ve infected the collective as originally planned to potentially save civilisation. 5. That was a rogue agent not official an Federation directive. 4. Janeway chose the lesser of two evils. 3. Once again, they were at all out war. The Federation had a weapon to win it so they used it, the only collateral was one security officer. That’s a bargain. And at the end of the day, it was a contributing factor in winning the war. 2. Yeah that was pretty bad.😕 But nothing like this had ever happened, it wasn’t law yet. 1. That was a necessary action to win the war. Either that or totalitarianism for centuries. Freedom was won and like Garak said all it cost was one romulan senator, one criminal, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer, which was a bargain. Sometimes evil is necessary to save freedom and lives. ‘People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.’ - Richard Grenier, derived from George Orwell
"You cant handle the truth! Son we live in a world that has walls and those have to be guarded by men with guns. […] I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. […] And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something, you use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand at post." - Col. Nathan R. Jessep
“There’s a point, far out there when the structures fail you, when the rules aren’t weapons anymore. They’re shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day, you may face such a moment of crisis. And in that moment, I hope you have a friend like I did, to plunge their hands into the filth so that you can keep yours clean!” -Comm. James Gordon
Thank you so much you put what I’ve been thinking very eloquently and I greatly appreciate it because this is true because when you look at some things from World War II in our own planet and other stuff there of been some pretty nasty things done as well to cut to get the ends of a means
You forgot the enslavement of the mark 1 series of the Emh, they are sentient. When the doctor from Voyager wrote a holonovel, it became a revolutionary holonovel to the emh mk1s who were being used as mine workers
@@Shadothecat That's the point. The doctor was seen as property rather than a life form, the same as Data was, although the EMH holograms seem to have been treated worse, especially once they became "obsolete". It's obvious they were sentient, since Voyager's EMH was able to create his own art and had interests beyond his programming as a doctor.
I was going to mention this as well. It goes hand in hand with Data being Starfleet property. I suppose it doesn't help that the Doctor is my favorite Star Trek character of all time.
Why in so many sci-fi shows, do artificial humanoid creations meant for work, menial labor, used only as tools, etc, are either given near or full sentience, allowed to attain sentience, or checks are not put in place to prevent that? (Prevention of them attaining sentience is another philosophical discussion, but for everyones' benefit, it should not be allowed for designated "workers".) Then either minor issues occur (relatively minor- fighting for your freedom is absolutely not minor, but it's far less destructive than), to full uprisings by synthetic beings? Usually followed by war and death on both sides. They should make one group of synthetics for solely work, and another as full-fledged lifeforms with the same rights as biological beings.
Exactly! She didn't even give the Doctor an inch of a bit of time to find an alternative solution. He found the cure to bring back Neelix & Tuvok. From this and the available technology, he could have searched for a way to preserve all 3 lives. Instead, Captain Jackassway was like: "We got the cure? Fine, let's kill Tuvix now." Even the Doctor was highly disgusted by that, and said to her: "It's murder. I'm out. Do it yourself." ( Not the exact quote, but that's the idea."
@@Paulafan5 Nice false equivalency there bud. At that time, Tuvok and Neelix were already gone. In the present, it was Tuvix. What created Tuvix was an accident, and no one was at fault. Destroying him was plain murder.
10. Starfleet did not create the Genisos device. They funded it. They did not invent it. 9. Enterprise is pre Starfleet. 8. Discovery is not in the established timeline, this is a perfect example of why it is not. 5. Gill was a rogue agent, he was not acting under Federation / Starfleet orders. 3. Section 31 is a rogue faction of the Federation. They are not Starfleet / Federation proper. 2. Starfleet did not claim Data was property. Maddox did. Starfleet allowed the trial to prove his individuality.
Enterprise is pre-Federation, not pre-Starfleet. Remember in one episode Archer said he proposed to a woman? She turned him down because she would become a "Starfleet widow"
Picard had to fight tooth and nail and use his political weight to get that trial. Starlet had just accepted Madox theories and gave up Data with out much of a fight. The fact that they bowed to political pressure and allowed for a trial was more of a show then anything.
And the US military did not the develop the nuclear bomb, they just funded it. But the funding of a device that can be used as a weapon of mass destruction is bad enough if your actual standards on this issue is not to use them or to have them. Starfleet predates the Federation. Enterprise is only pre-Federation not pre-Starfleet. DIS is in the established timeline. Accept it. I'll give you Gil. He was acting on his own. Section 31 is part of Starfleet. Always were. They even get their name from Starfleet's founding documents. They are just so clandestine that barely anybody knows about their existence. But not only that, their actions towards the end of the Dominion War were known to Starfleet Command. Admiral Ross sanctioned their use of Dr. Bashir to assassinate a Romulan politician to replace her with somebody with a more favourable view of the Federation, and after Bashir and O'Brien found out about the virus developed by Section 31, Starfleet Medical blocked their attempts to finding a cure. And last but not least, who do you think approved Maddox's attempt to seize Data as property? That was Starfleet, Maddox was not operating on his own. And if it had not been for Picard pulling strings to get a trial going and really going all out within it to prove Data's case, Starfleet would not have given a damn about Data's rights as a person.
I also disagree with associating Starfleet with that professor who turned a planet into Nazis. Here's the thing: Starfleet itself did NOT sanction what that professor did. He went rogue by disobeying the Prime Directive. The PD states that interference with non-warp capable civilizations is an absolute no-no. It didn't matter that the professor witnessed chaos and internecine conflicts. The ethical thing for him to have done would've been to let events unfold naturally & do NOTHING. So that professor became a war criminal according to the stipulations, regulations, and articles of Starfleet's own protocol: the Prime Directive.
"Patterns of Force". One of the top 12 TOS episodes. Moments before his death, John (the fuhrer) Gill told Kirk that even historians make mistakes. "The Prime Directive is the only way." Fast forward to "Bread and Circuses"... Merchant Captain R. Merrick (SF academy washout, aka Merrikus) totally throws out the regulations book. Brought his entire crew from the damaged ship down to New Rome. After telling that planet's leadership a hell of a lot about SF, the Federation, etc., many of the S.S. Beagle adapt to life on that world. Some don't and are sentenced to be fodder for televised gladitorial games as barbarians. Merrick does one last noble act and gets the landing party transported back to the Enterprise at the expense of his own life; the cultural contamination is done. In the TNG novel "Captains Honor", decades have passed and somehow New Rome is brought into the Federation family.
The assassination of the romulan senator was always the plan. Garak knew the data rod would not pass muster. However, a data rod recovered from a destroyed ship, and thus slightly damaged, would just not pass muster purely because of the damage to the ship. He explained it at the end of the episode.
@Leo Peridot Did you watch the episode at all? The entire episode in question was Sisko trying to come to terms with the deeply horrible things he was a party to. He never thought he was in the right. The only, ONLY reason he could even live with what happened was because it was a tactical military and political move that would potentially save his homeland. As for Sisko as a religious leader, have you watched Star Trek: Deep Space Nine? At best, for most of the series, he's a reluctant leader who would take an out. That's not to say DS9 doesn't portray religious leaders with an agenda. In that respect Winn Adami is the perfect juxtaposition. Ambitious, fundamentalist, and willing to abandon all her beliefs if someone offered more power over her adversary.
I mean, 103 years later after the Genesis device. The Vulcans (and Starfleet) created the Red Matter... and if you watch Star Trek (2009). You know how that work..
One thing you totally missed: DS9's two-parter, Homefront/Paradise Lost. Starfleet's head of security organized a coup of the Federation under everyone's noses. Sisko had to hold Admiral Layton at gunpoint before he gave up on his plan, and even then it took the "betrayal" of one of his underground officers for him to realize it was over. Also, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, another Section 31 episode where Starfleet complies under the table while a plot to assassinate the head of the Romulan Tal Shiar (which is later revealed to be a bid to entrench their spy) plays out behind the Dominion War. Starfleet does some nasty shit in DS9. I kinda love it.
@@sonofthewolfguardianofthef1214 It technically is though it operates completely separate, at least in DS9 it did. It is established and allowed by the Starfleet Charter, Article 14 Subsection 31. Hence the name. It predates the Federation, which is also technically separate from Starfleet. But that one is still controversial amoungst the fandom.
@@sonofthewolfguardianofthef1214 because it fucking is! It is made pretty clear in DS9 that central command is well aware of what they are doing and they condone it! Maybe they even ordered it. Also, in Discovery they are clearly a branch of Starfleet.
I was gonna riot if you didn't include Lal's death, but you included Measure of a Man so I'm OK. But seriously....this was after it was established that Data had rights as a sentient being. By all accounts, his child should inherit those rights. But they were blatantly violated during a time of incredibly sensitive cognitive development in Lal's life, causing a cascade failure which killed her. Measure of a Man is at least vaguely understandable, since there was no legal precedent, but once there was it didn't even matter to them.
The weirdest thing about Measure of a Man is that you'd think there *was* a precedent. How could Data be admitted to (and graduate from) Starfleet academy if he wasn't even recognised as a living being?
The problem with Picard is that it portrays the entirety of Starfleet as EVIL. The better written Treks had rogue members of Starfleet and dealt with the issues with some nuance. Picard doesn't because Kurtzman is a hack.
I think Picard was very consistent with existing lore. A few synthetics do something bad, so all are banned and branded as villains out of fear, prejudice, and bigotry, showing Starfleet's shallow, reactionary nature. A few models of genemods do bad things, so all of the other trillions of possible models are banned and branded as villains out of fear, prejudice, and bigotry. Same. Exact. Behavior. Starfleet's behaving no different in Picard than it did in the past.
'In the Pale Moonlight' is my favorite episode of any Trek show. Superb writing and performances from the cast. That speech from Garak at the end is just *chef's kiss*: "And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don’t know about you, but I’d call that a bargain."
Keeps blaming"Starfleet" for the choices of individual people or small groups, so many better examples available. Insurrection as an example. Also "Starfleet" didn't develope Genesis they only funded it.
Genesis was for rapid terraforming of planets. Only evil if misused. Seems rather op though. Of course protomater that was used in Genesis is the real kicker, throw that into a sun and by-by solar system.
Insurrection? Yeah moving 600 space hippies who weren't even native to the planet and in Federation space who were also hoarding a cure for death to save 800 billion people is real evil, the devil's work.
@@samuelbarber4154 "to save 800 billion people from death." You clearly have little to no clue what they were after, or how they intended to use it. Dougherty made it clear it was going to be used in a military capacity. Yeah if you think he had any good intentions you should just find a new sci fi I.P. probably.
The fact that these individuals didn't face harsh consequences for their actions speaks a lot of where Starfleet was at. Also: 'they only funded it' is a dumb argument.
@@VuotoPneumaNN well you're not very bright. As for the 2nd part, it wasn't an argument or a statement of opinion it was simply a clarification of the facts. As for the consequences, please tell us all about those consequences since they were never actually stated in any source, in fact in non canon sources such as 'Before Dishonor' it appears as though Starfleet went under major changes post Insurrection considering the 2 people in charge seemed to be Nachayev (a vice admiral in TNG) and admiral Jellico (a captain in TNG). It's one thing to argue about Kirk's repurcussions it's another thing to suggest for instance that the Undiscovered Country conspirators got off light. There's just no evidence of that. Stop using your assumptions as arguments.
What about the android population from the. " I Mudd." episode ???. What happened to all those replicas of Mudd'.s wife Stella?.. The Federation could have a.field day.there. Or planet Exo 3 " What are little girls made of?," the android spinning machine? as I call it. Theres other androids besides Data.
Most of those examples are of deeds of individuals, not Starfleet in general. And most are Post-Roddenberry era - so there's that... Samples from STD are not valid, because it's also Kurzman-Era like Picard.
OK Roddenberry era: General Order 12.// Correction 24 Provocation is a planet leader kidnapped the two stars of the show, a space stenographer and a couple of security guards. Kill almost all life on a planet because you lost a half dozen officers and we're lied to. I doubt if the USSR, Red China or NATO would have considered that a proportional response.
@@STho205 That was General Order 24, and Kirk was possibly bluffing. The order most likely exists, but only to be used in the most extreme situations. Let's not forget that Anon 7 wanted the whole Enterprise crew to beam down for disintegration. Kirk wasn't having that.
@@steakslave it is an egocentric script from the USS Ponderosa. If contract actors get killed or threatened all hell is unleashed. If some security guards, a few hundred people and some onscreen extras get torched, ahhhh too bad. Break the tension with a corny knee slapping joke at the end. The first 20 script episodes didn't do that as much, but it became a staple as the show became more if a western. People tuned in to see the office family and what adventures happened before the gigantic reset button was hit in the epilogue. WNMHGB was a dramatic and tragic ending without a button. So was City. Most other tragedies were eventually laughed off like Doctor Who does. I thought TNG was a tedious show, but they didn't always end with a laugh. I'll give them that, despite a the corny jokes inside the episodes.
Sorry, gotta side with the Federation on that one. Starfleet was well within their right to move the Baku, and the power they were sitting on had the ability to save hundreds of thousands of lives during a war that was destined to take millions more. That would have been less than 50,000 people put in a different home, versus a death toll of 50x that, seems like a no-brainer to me. "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" after all. Besides, it's not like Picard hadn't been part of many other forced relocations for dumber reasons. He's got no moral ground to stand on.
@@swishfish8858 not to mention that wasn't even their original homeworld. They were just space hippies who were hoarding a cure for death. They literally had to make the Sona genocidal to make the Baku look good by comparison Fuck Star Trek Insurrection
@@swishfish8858 None of that gives the Federation any right. And as a great commander once said: "It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival." Is it okay to kill 1 person for their organs if it means you can save 5 with them?
10 - That wasn't the intention. Doesn't make them evil. 9 - Enterprise had to steal the warp coil to save Earth from being destroyed. That wasn't them being evil and seeing how Starfleet didn't order it to happen, it certainly wasnt them being evil. 8 - Nothing from DIS or PIC can be used as an example. 7 - Wrong to do, but this is Sisko's personal vendetta. Not a Starfleet action. 6 - Questionable, but it isn't evil to launch a strike against a threat that is responsible for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of worlds. 5 - This was one man, not Starfleet. 4 - Janeway's decision to do this in an act of desperation to save her crew. Again, this isn't Starfleet's decision. 3 - Section 31's action was not sanctioned by Starfleet. 2 - Hardly evil when they considered a machine to be a machine only. They had a trial and that was that. Would anyone evil accept the result of that trial? 1 - Again, this was Sisko's action. Not Starfleet. Honestly, I can't believe this list didn't include the incident with the Ba'ku. One of the few genuine villainous moments from Starfleet itself and you didn't even include it. Oh, and there was also the plot as seen in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. Another sorely missed from this list.
7 - Sisko used Starfleet resources and personnel to take that action. He was in uniform, representing the Federation and Starfleet. He committed a war crime, which should have seen him jailed whether he was acting personally or not. That Starfleet did not court martial him, nor take any action against him at all, shows they were quite willing to allow it. That makes them complicit in his crime.
@@maisiesummers42 fabricating a secret meeting isn't a war crime. Garak was the one that committed murder, which I still wouldn't classify a war crime anyway and Sisko didn't report it because of the bigger picture. War is terrible and terrible things need to be done to win. Just imagine if the Dominion had won. Garak said himself something like "humans have rules [in war]. Rules that make winning difficult." He has a good point.
Four number 1. Starfleet did know about the plan to bring in the Romulans. Sisco told that Admiral and the Federation backed the plan, but would claim no knowledge of anything should Sisco fail.
Was going to say pretty much the exact same that none of these are Starfleet, but rather individuals, or they're not evil at all. Seriously, its like the people running this channel have never actually watched Star Trek.
You said "with shameless and wicked intent" but this is the list you provide, I'd argue only number 1 fits that criteria #10: Because technology can be used as a weapon does not mean that is why it was created, besides why would they need that when a Constitution class vessel and basically level a planet anyway #9: Evil would have been slaughtering them, or just taking without leaving supplies. Very damn dark however #8: From Discovery, shouldn't be on this list as Picard and Discovery are from the same production era and therefor thematically similar, you're trying to show Starfleet has previously been depicted as evil #7: They even said in the episode that he didn't get approval for this from Starfleet Command, although the fact he wasn't sent to a penal colony is tacit approval #6: I don't get this one, yes it's considered but it's abandoned when thee true horrible scope of what is been proposed actually means morally is confronted, isn't that opposite of evil? #5: Not a sanctioned operation, in fact the Enterprise crew work to undo and correct the situation #4: So you ignore that 8472 was planning to destroy all life in the galaxy? Borg wanted to turn the weapon into a WMD which voyager wouldn't do. Janeway didn't want to wipe out 8472, just defend the galaxy as we know it from annihilation #3: Finally you get to one that I agree shows a truly evil act by the Federation #2: Wait up, the ranking starfleet officer heard the arguments from 2 officers and made the judgement Data was sentient and had individual rights, how is this showing starfleet as evil? #1: Again another actual good choice Ones I think would have made for a better list, no specific order, altho some I still agree wouldn't meet the "with shameless and wicked intent" criteria but still evil imo * TNG: Insurrection * DS9 S7E16 Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges * TNG S7E12 The Pegasus * TNG S7E20 Journey's End Plenty of material that starfleet can be evil, as Sisko said "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" but all in all most of this list was weak.
I like Picard, and think their views of Starfleet are a good statement on the current world and how there's always hope against it. "Hardcore" trekkies are going to kill my family because of this.
I'm not a hardcore Trekkie. I wish I could watch Picard. I saw part of the pilot episode, looks fascinating enough. Either way, the world today is too obsessed with negativity. They'll shit on anything, everything, to pass the time.
@@Saint_nobody - If there was nothing to complain about they'd complain about not having anything to complain about - it seems to make them feel better about their own insecurities. Whining and being offended by everything in existence, that's what our modern society is all about(or so it seems at times). And now I've likely offended someone so somebody will probably complain...
I think Picard does a great job at showing that the high ideals of The Federation have to be fought for continuously. You don't earn them at some point and then magically it stays like that forever. No, you have to keep earning that paradise. DS9 showed the same thing.
#10, Starfleet did not create the genesis device. Federation scientists created it. That would be like blaming the U.S. Navy for creating the atomic bomb. #9. The series Enterprise should not even be considered cannon, considering how many times it contradicted the Original Series. #8. Star Trek Discovery is on CBS All-Access which is a subscription service, and therefore should not be considered cannon either. #7. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was always intended to be a "darker" version of the Federation. But again, you attribute the actions of one man to all of Starfleet. #6. Whole point of the episode. How do you deal with an enemy with whom you cannot reason or negotiate? So yes, imperfect human beings consider a final solution. But, in the end they make the right choice. Side note, all Borg are not human, they are from many different species. #5. Again, you attribute the misguided actions of a single man on all of Starfleet. This is OBVIOUSLY not what Starfleet stands for. #4. As mentioned by a couple of other viewers, Species 8472 intended to cleanse the entire universe of biological life. You can come back from being a borg, but you can't come back from annihilation. #3. Section 31 is NOT part of Starfleet. It is more akin to the Romulan's Tal Shiar or the Cardassian's Obsidian Order. It was a star-chamber like group operating outside of Federation authority. #2. Again, the ENTIRE point of the episode - Guinan even points out the slavery connotations to Picard. It was an examination of how human beings have treated those who were different from themselves. In the end, they come to the correct conclusion. Data is NOT property. #1. And again, Deep Space Nine was written as a "darker" version of the Federation, and while Sisco agreed to the deception, he did not agree to or condone the murder. Even if he had, it is the action of individuals, and NOT Starfleet as a whole. Far worse would be when Admiral Nechayev, relayed orders from Starfleet Command, to remove the colonists of Native American descent from Dorvan V in the episode "Journey's End." Now that was an act of Starfleet, the organization, and not an individual member of Starfleet. After all, individuals may not be perfect and not always follow the rules like they're supposed to. It's only when those in charge (Starfleet Command, and/or the Federation Council) violate their own rules that you can say the act was committed by that organization.
*Genesis Device* - Anything that manipulates vast sums of energy can be turned into a weapon. Like the antimatter fuel of any warp capable vessel. A single metric ton of antimatter is about 2-3 times more powerful than _all the nuclear weapons in the world today._ And a large starship of Kirk's era, like the Constitution class, carries _many tons_ of this stuff. In terms of destructive potential, the Genesis Device is really nothing special. Its application as a weapon of conquest is practically zero: there are cheaper, more readily available means of wiping out a planet. The advantage of Genesis is that it leaves behind a habitable planet, but you do not colonize enemy planets on the front line of an ongoing war. *Archer steals a warp coil* - Captain Archer is not Starfleet. He is a captain in Starfleet. Starfleet did not strand some aliens in interstellar space by stealing a warp coil. Archer did. *Planning to blow up Qo'noS* - I have no criticisms about this one. Starfleet was straight up evil here. They considered and approved a heinous act of terror that would have murdered billions of civilians. *Sisko poisons a planet* - Sisko acted without the approval of Starfleet. Once again, this is the action of a single ship, not the entire organization of Starfleet. Though I admit it is quite suspect he wasn't immediately court-martialed and put in the slammer. *Picard almost kills the Borg with math* - Everyone has the _potential_ to be a good person, but not everyone is. We judge people by their actions, not what they _could_ do, or in this case, what they could become. The Borg are belligerent, effectively genocidal, and do not have noncombatants. Wiping them out may not have been the "good" decision, but it certainly wouldn't have been evil, either. Picard put his conscience above the lives of countless billions of people all across the galaxy, who might have lived if the Borg had been stopped that day. *Space Nazis* - Once again: this disastrophe was the result of a single person who acted without the knowledge or approval of Starfleet. *A deal with the Borg* - Captain Janeway acts without the knowledge or approval of Starfleet. Judge Janeway however you wish, but _Starfleet_ had nothing to do with these events. *Section 31's morphogenic virus* - Yep. Maybe not all of Sarfleet knew about this, but the top brass did, or at least tacitly condoned it by allowing Section 31 to operate so freely. *Data is a toaster* - Starfleet really dropped the ball here. This might really be the worst thing Starfleet ever did, when you consider the implications. *Garak blows up an ambassador* - Sisko was attempting to get the Romulans on Starfleet's side by using diplomacy and subterfuge. He did so with Starfleet's approval as well. However, neither Sisko nor Starfleet had _any_ idea about Garak's intention to plant a bomb on the ambassador's ship. Sisko might have decided it was worth it _after_ it happened, but probably wouldn't have agreed to it beforehand. And it's pretty clear he never told Starfleet about it either, so once again these are the actions of individuals, and not Starfleet as an organization. So of this list of 10 things, only 9 of which are actually evil, Starfleet can only really be culpable for 3 of them.
Data is a toaster - actually it was mostly due to ambitions of Maddox. Starfleet just had no laws defending artificial beings. Cpt. Picard made a precedent by defending AI rights. Then Federation government will make it a law. That's how democracy works. I do not count Discovery and Picard episodes, cause they are not Star Trek.
Lots of wiggle room here. Two of the incidents were vetoed by Starfleet personel in one way or another (Data's side won the hearing, Picard decided not to genocide the Borg). A couple were Section 31, which is not really part of Starfleet. Likewise, Sisco never planned to murder Vreenak. That was all Garak. Voyager never agreed to genocide Species 8472, just defeat them militarily. The Genesis Device was never meant to be a weapon. And so on. Starfleet DOES have biosphere and even sun-destroying weapons, and almost never uses them.
A few moderately armed ships could glass a planet with directed energy beams and antimatter warheads. That's just their conventional day-to-day shit they shoot off willy-nilly. A planet killing device seems underwhelming in a universe like that.
Section 31 is part of Starfleet. It is made pretty clear in DS9 that Central Command endorsed both the plot to infect the Founders and the one to remove the Romulan senator and substitute her with a Federation mole. They also agreed to trick the Romulans into the war, even tho their version of the plan didn't involve murdering Vreenak.
@@VuotoPneumaNN Sloane on the other hand made it sound like Section 31 operated completely independently of Starfleet. If it did coordinate with the Federation leadership, I suspect it was only a few bad apples (or desperate men) in Starfleet who signed off on it. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31
@@VuotoPneumaNN Who do you trust then? The corrupt Starfleet admiral who colluded in the overthrow and likely death of a Romulan who was an ally? Working with Sloane the was an act of desperation during wartime. It doesn't mean that Section 31 is officially part of Starfleet.
it was kind of the opposite of this list though...that JAG lady decided to go on a witch hunt and pissed everyone off so much that the admiral overseeing the investigation just got up and left. I'd say that's a win for Starfleet IMO.
@@swishfish8858 it kind of already happened. The whole episode was an allegory of the anti-communist MCarthy trails in the US where so many people including many figures in Hollywood were merely found guilty by association and were persecuted for it in violation of the 1st amendment of the US constitution.
When you take event out of context of in the episode you can make all shorts of judgments.. 8472 wasnt just taking borg. They try to dissolve ensign kim. They for days sent kes threatening messages. 7 stated it herself when they discover the earth recreation that 8472 built. The only contact that voyager got was your galaxy will be purged. Ultimately they never gave the borg anything. Hint why the borg queen want 7 back but as an individual in dark frontier.
I admit to being baffled by the modern attempt to completely rewrite the history of Voyager. It wasn't the greatest show; it surely wasn't the crap many people seem to want to make it out to be. Janeway in particular is being singled out for a complete distortion of who her character was. I always considered her a great captain. With flaws. A very well rounded character that Mulgrew played perfectly. Thank the gods this show came along before wokeness destroyed women.
@@dylanogg347 The word has actually been around for quite a while. In current times it is a slang word used used to masquerade self righteousness as enlightenment. It is particularly abused in the feminist movement when it is abused to portray women as perfect and men as idiots.
I like that episode you chose as number one. As Garak said that he, Sisko, saved millions of federation lives and it only cost the life of one criminal and one romulan senator. You sacrifice a few lives to make sure that many more will live. In a war that is a decision that can become a reality. Also, it was the sort of the excuse to use the A bomb in WW2. Sadly, but sometimes the end justify the means.
Sadly, we have learned thsat the US NEVER needed to use the H biombs on Japan, so that analogy is no longer valid. It's more on the lines of McCoy telling Spock, "If killing 5 lives, saves 10, it's a bargain. Is that your simple logic?"
@@loulfw2513 If 2 people not considered allies, are sacrificed to save billions, it is a bargain for STDS9. The US may have not needed to use the A bombs on Japan, as already they have internal struggles between those who wanted to surrender and end the war, and those who wanted to fight to the last man. By 1945, Japan was fighting basically for honor as they knew they could not stop the American advance. Americans did not want to risk it and decided to drop the bombs, and as an excuse they say that they wanted Japan to surrender so they would not need to continue island hopping and to invade japan, which of course will need more planning and manpower and of course deaths. That was their excuse. If after the bombs, the japanese did not surrender, they would go ahead with the invasion. We dont know for sure what would have happenned, so they just dropped the bombs and expected for a surrender, which came to true.
Depressing that trekkies rely on political dirt throwing tactics to make money. Still, Starfleet has been shown to be, even at its worst, a highly ethical organisation. I downvoted this video just for the sensationalist reporting.
#4 could be seen as saving the Federation from a known threat in favor of one that may not know of their existence yet- IMO more of a practical deal than an evil one. Of course Janeway should have expected the double cross- they are your mortal enemies after all...
To be fair, it was Chakotay who broke that deal first. The Borg then started taking things into their own hands. I have a feeling that if Janeway was not incapacitated that deal may have actually worked, and if it did it would be the first time anyone has ever made diplomatic relations with the Borg.
Archer's mission was to preserve the Earth at the time. He couldn't perform that mission on impulse power. I don't think he did anything that any other starfleet captains would have done.
Well you need to be able to differentiate between the collective and the individual drones. The Drones can still be saved, and really aren't responsible for their condition, is it at all right to kill them off unless there's absolutely no choice? It's one of the truly tragic thing about the Borg, if a Federation ship and a Borg ship duke it out, it doesn't matter who wins because both ships are filled with innocent victims.
@@AeneasGemini There are no "individual drones". Except for that lot that broke off to go with Lore, and Hugh. Every drone is part of the collective unless acted upon by outside forces.
@@vsgfilmgroup Note that Picard didn't spend a moment considering a virus that would break the collective hold on the drones. It was kill them all or move on to the next episode.
Klingons are meant to be ugly, so whatever. But klingons aren't meant to sound like shy mumblers with mouths full of oatmeal. And klingons don't let random alien trash wander their space or their homeworld unchallenged.
Most of the cases you have pointed out , are acts where Starfleet are in a war situation, then a few soley upon the actions of individuals. As for the situation with Genesis , Genesis WAS designed to terraform dead planets for colonisation. It was down to Khan and the Klingons attempting to lable it as a weapon or to use it as such. Spocks theorisation was just that, not an actual intention. A very shaky video and a lot of shaky supposition
Genesis is tenuous at best but try the Voyager episode "Equinox" when the crew for the Starship Equinox find they can use a multidimensional alien race as fuel for their warp core , In T.O.S. episode "A taste of Armageddon" Captain Kirk threatens to use general order 24( the destruction of all major cities on a planet ) he never dose , but the fact the order exists in the first place .
A taste of Armageddon was actually the closest thing to an evil committed by Starfleet. An order to destroy all life on a planet as a threat to save some of his crew and command is pretty extreme. I'm not sure if it was ethical at all even for survival, but since he didn't have to do it the consequence was good.
Heather Westhaver the admiral was okay with the displacement of the baku due to the youthful properties of the metaphasic radiation. Star fleet were okay with it. It was only after the enterprise was attacked and the admiral had found out the cerna and the Baku were the same race did he have a change a heart. But had those two things not happened he would have gone along with everything.
No no. Both to you and the people who responded below. Why does Riker & the Enterprise have a battle with the Soyna to begin with? Do you remember where Riker was going? Do you remember why they had to stop him? Because the Soyna and the admiral knew, when Riker reached the Federation and told them what was really going on, the Federation would put a stop to it. This whole plan would only work if admiral Daughtry Hid this plan from Starfleet. He knew they wouldn't go along with it.
1. Stealing a warp coil to prevent the destruction of earth, isn't evil, at the most it's morally questionable. 2. The genesis device wasn't a weapon of mass destruction, as it wasn't designed to be a weapon, unlike say a nuclear bomb which was designed with one purpose. 3. Threatening to destroy the Klingon home world, before they destroy yours, is another morally questionable action but not necessarily evil. 4. The founders had no problem committing genocide(see. The blight or the near annihilation of the cardassians), so not exactly going to shed a tear for a race of racist puddles, especially with over 900bln dead.
You forgot the fact that created the Maquis... They handed colonies populated by federation citizens to the Cardassians. Including one populated by Native American tribes who were forcefully relocated!
There a misconception in tng episode they were told that by staying they were stating they were no longer federation citizens by law and they agreed. The federation never abandon them. There were cardassians on the federation side that had the same thing happen. The difference was central command was breaking the treaty by sending weapons in to the demilitarized zone to destabilize it.
@@Shadothecat They agreed because they didn't want to leave their homes. Later, the Cardassians started abusing their power and igniting confrontations with them. We are never shown the Cardassians on the federation side tho, i wonder how many they were and how they were handling it. For all we know, the Federation could have been given unpopulated planets (maybe rich with resources). Still a very bad treaty nontheless.
@Thelondonbadger So basically your idea of a "good treaty" is sending your own people to die like unofficial cannon fodder? Woha, guess the federation has truly always been evil...
@Thelondonbadger Ultimately, i agree with you. Nonetheless, this still undermines the idyllic image of the federation most Trekkies (and Picard, apparently) want maintained.
@@Shadothecat You have your opinion of course. I most strongly do not agree with it. Roddenberry wanted to show that humanity could grow to a more evolved species. That there was hope for humanity. They were never saints. They did bad things all too often. Even still they aspired to a higher ideal and tried to make that ideal a reality.
@@michaeldominic3183 I completely agree with you. For me, Star Trek has always been about optimism for the future. Everything has a bad side and in principle, I think Section 31 is good to add to the story as it makes it more real - you can't manage threats without someone really underhanded doing it. However, this Dystopian turn that STD and STP have taken is not Star Trek and I don't agree with it. To me - it's not Canon and that can never change.
@@ScorpiusZA. Totally agree on the crap CBS is putting out there. Some people seem to think one can take a franchise and completely ignore the 'rules' of that franchises reality and just throw it out the door. You can't. There is an underlying foundation that a franchise has that has to remain and as long as you keep that in place you can expand on top of it. Removing the underlying foundation of what makes a property destroys the property. This latter is what STD and Picard have done and they are no longer Star Trek.
There is the episode in which Starfleet is okay with a mob syndicate running a planet. The episode with the Tribbles leads to a Tribble genocide by the Klingons. There is the episode where Starfleet allows a neo-Nazi government to remain in place caused by a Starfleet historian.
3:11 - you didn't mention that archer left the other ship with 3 years worth of supplies when he took the warp drive. It still doesnt make it a good thing, but it was very nice of him, technically he did a forced trade, see pirates take without giving and archer gave back when he too the warp drive, so their not pirates.
There is a BIG difference in the "evil acts" of TNG, DS9 or VOY and the one of Picard & STD. The first ones where always actions of last resort, actions of a characters brought to their breaking point (e.g. DS9 (Romulans, Marqui) or VOY (Borg & 8742) or of rouge elements, or were prevented by the principles of Starfleet (e.g. Datas Process). And if it happens the involved people have to deal with the consequences (morally and from a story point) . In Picard & STD, this is not the case and this is also why most people see the "evil actions" in the new series as a break of Star Treks core principle.
Except that that argument is completely incorrect, and can be completely undone by the fact that Section 31 existed LONG before TOS, having been created in a time when there wasn’t anything pushing anyone to any breaking point.
Contrawise: Section 31 just underlines my thesis. Let me explain why: They were always clearly shown as the bad guys. The heroes always have to fight them to rescue what the Federation stands for. Sometimes even if this means to choose the lesser evil (breaking point). If you want to see the basic principle Star Trek is based on you can watch Admiral Ramirez Speech from Axxanar. Even if it's a Fan-Film this speech sums up the core idea of Star Trek for me ("The greatest Challenge is to do what must be done, without undoing the dream of the Federation"). While the new series (STD, Picard) managed the first part, they completely ignored the second one…
One truism that dates back to the original series is as soon as you got that nice broad Commodore's braid on your uniform sleeve, your brain turned to tapioca or something. Probably the only Commodore I ever felt any respect or sympathy for was Matt Decker, 'cause he pretty much went thru his own personal private Hell on the way to offing himself.
Know your trek! Most of these cases were orders from the upper echelons of Starfleet, specially the genocidal ones and the original plan of In a Pale Moonlight was a direct violation of the prime directive
Let's be real, during the Diminion War, if there were planets that held only Dominion shipyards and white facilities, starfleet would've been firing those things off left and right!
What about the TNG episode Journey's End where Federation gave away a planet that was home to a colony of American Indians to the Cardassian Union and ordered Picard forcibly remove them from the planet relocate them against their will.
Presentation bias. The colonists identified as historical underdog minority group = not relevant. Picard had a personal ancestor who exploited this minority group = not relevant (although strangely coincidental). What if these people were stubborn brits or proud scots or mysterious arabs or fierce samurai instead? What if they were dumb pakleds or immovable vulcans instead? The Cardassians wouldn't change, Starfleet's orders wouldn't change, only the story would change. Compare vs Picard's solutions when he got the same colony evacuation orders because of Romulan, Sheliak, and Borg threats.
@@pwnmeisterage being a "historically underdog minority group" is relevant. Power relations and historical imbalances have value when making a political decision. Those people had colonized that planet after their people had been deprived of their ancestral homes, reduced to reserves, abused and depowered for centuries. Then those champions of freedom and justice at the federation handed their new home to the fucking Cardassians!
@@VuotoPneumaNN 1) the orders were from Starfleet, not Earth. Vulcans would not care about pre-WW III Earth events where everything had been leveled by thermonuclear war. 2) they were not native to the planet that had been in disputed space from before the Fed-Card War started, 3) they were told, before settling, the world might not be in Fed space and evacuation might be necessary. So being a "historically underdog minority group" is irrelevant, though I am glad you agree that unapproved Israeli settlements in the West Bank should never be evacuated. After all, there in no group more a "historically underdog minority group" than the jews.
@@johnweatherman5685 All I'm getting from this is you are a bit racist. Israeli settlements in the west Bank are already inhabited. That planet was not. That makes on hell of a difference.
4. Initially, they were thinking of Species 8472 as an ally. However, after Kes has telepathic contact with them, she tells Janeway that ”it’s not the Borg we should be worried about, it's them.”
This seems to come up sometimes 'x has always been y'. 1. It's not necessarily about being dark, it's about being inauthentic. We don't buy the darkness in Picard. It just seems childish and shallow. Compare to that episode of Sisko everyone always rave about. 2. 'Lol, let's take a bright thing and turn it dark' is the most trite thing ever. 'But what if superman was... evil?'. It's like the only thing writers are capable of thinking off when handling a character or faction who's genuinely decent. 3. Quality still matters. You can be dark and high quality, and dark and low quality. This goes for all 'y' by the way. 4. There's this... tone that exists in a lot of television nowadays. It's best exemplified by this voice people sometime puts on when they're trying to sound dramatic and solemn, except they do it by putting on a slow drawl. Usually it's followed by some attempts at an 'insightful' turn of phrase like I dunno: 'All life... is born from chaos'. The problem is the voice doesn't sound solemn at all, it just sounds dumb. And the insightful phrases aren't insightful, they're nonsense some writer thought sounded cool. Yeah, modern star trek is this tone. There's more true gravitas in five minutes of old school star trek than in entire seasons of the new stuff.
So true. In this modern era where writers seem to have little imagination, they don't want actual heroes, they want protagonists that are "realistic". They define "realistic" by not being completely good, but having them be both good and evil. I guess they don't know any good people in real life. Pity.
In one episode of Voyager, Voyager destroys an anti-Borg trap that a civilization put out to protect itself from the Borg. Voyager left a whole civilization to get assimilated just because it could kill one crew member on Voyager. Poisoning space. In Star Trek The New Generation, it is found out that flying at warp speed degrades space to the point that people flying in degraded space with a space ship could have the space ship blow up. All this time, there could already be "cracks" in space due to the constant warping between key lines of travel to the point that Star Fleet must have known about it. Kirk's threat to nuke two planets that didn't have warp capability because he didn't like the way the two planets were fighting. Basically each plant was using disintegration chambers on their planets and when one planet "tagged" the other planet, the tagged planet sent some people to the disintegration chamber. Picard siding with a genocidal space creature. Picard has fired on space creatures before, but when a scientist kills a space creature that ate her home planet, he arrests her saying that isn't the Starfleet way.
In Kirk's defense, one of those planets was forcibly trying to shove Kirk, his crew, and a high ranking Federation diplomat into a disintegration chamber because the war computer calculated the Enterprise as destroyed. After watching that episode, I have to say that those aliens kinda deserved whatever they got (be it Kirk nuking them or the other planet nuking them for breaking the rules).
"Before there was DOO-KOT..." !?!? (4.40) ... genuine Trek fan, clearly :/ * & many other genuinely annoying errors ; why do Trek vids if you don't give a funk, lads !?
10: starfleet had no intentions to use genesis as a weapon, it was stolen by a bad guy and he used it as a weapon 9: yeah i dont have an excuse for this one that was pretty shitty 8: this is discovery i dont watch this one 7: wellllll, they never said whether or not sisko really killed anyone, was more of a threat and pretty sure he was bluffing.....well after the first planet anyway 6: hey hey there was just "talk" of genocide it never actually happened.....who else has said stuff they didnt follow through with? no big deal 5: you cant blame starfleet for this, they didnt order him to start a nazi regime, he acted alone 4: hmmmmm they turned out to be worse than the borg so screw em....since voyager is alone kinda hard to put this on starfleet too 3: ok maybe this was a bit harsh but this is war, man....the founders are out to bring everyone under their rule so i say the gloves come off on them 2: yes not cool this one, but democracy and the court of law prevailed 1: this is an ends justify the means problem but if sisko had not done this the dominion would have destroyed the federation, and then it would be too late the dominion would have destroyed the romulans and took over the whole quadrant
Kristopher Tower How do you know that Starfleet did not intend to use Genesis as a weapon...? Were you a member of this fictitious organization and were made privy to all of their intentions...? You must of had a top secret clearance to know this kind of stuff...
@@troystutsman1400 well they never used it as a weapon for starters, and thinking that they would is the most absurd thing i ever heard...not even romulans would do something so shitty
you missed one.... what about the fact that Star Fleet actually has and uses an entire race of slaves.... as in the holographic doctor from Voyager ... they dont delete the EMH mk1 Ohh no... they send them to the dilithium mines.
So, would you say that Editor, Word, or Bonzi Buddy are an race of programs? Because the EMH mk1 is just that, a set of instructions. Just like Data before the Measure of Man was just Starfleet Property, built by an engineer and its brain fed neural instructions by a cyberneticist. When is a single thing, a curiosity, a being?
You forgot willing to allow an entire world to DIE, rather than 'interfere with their natural development'. Episode "Homeward". Vic Montoga of ST Continues: The Prime Directive ONLY works on PAPER.
This video conflates Starfleet with The United Federation of Planets. Some of the decisions, like the development of the Genesis Device, were made by the Federation with the details only revealed to the highest echelon of Starfleet. A real-world equivalent would be blaming the U.S. Navy for the concentration of Japanese-Americans during WWII - that decision was made by the government, not the military. Others were snap decisions were made by individuals at critical moments, rather than Starfleet Command making a deliberate choice. What I see when I watch Star Trek: Picard is the unfortunate response to a devastating war that struck the heart of the Federation: Earth. As General Martok pointed out, not even his own people had the audacity to attack Earth directly (this was pre-ST:Dis), and the destruction had a profound effect on Starfleet, the Federation, and the general populous. 'Never Again' would have become a watch-word, or buzz-phrase, and even after the war Starfleet wouldn't completely step back from their military role as the defenders of the Federation. Unfortunately, this would have an effect on who was promoted to which position, allowing for more people of . . . flexible morality . . . to reach the higher levels of Starfleet, and even the Federation as a whole, finally culminating in the situation that Picard finds himself in.
@@nunnayorz5836 But they also punish people who go rouge VERY mild. I mean the captain who destroys several Cardassian ships during peace-time - did he got arrested at once? No, he was treated like a gentleman. I mean could you imagine how loud the cries would be about a Klingon or Romulan captain who in times of peace kill their people? Bringim him down and destroying his ship would be "hero-material" I guess.
@@pwnmeisterage That may very well be. On the other hand, come one. We see ONE ship saving entire planets and sometimes even the Federation if not the galaxy time and time again. So I would say "being overpowered" is something that happened a lot in Star Trek/Star Fleet. Not just to its "rotten" members...
Love this! I disagree with #4: Making a deal with the Borg to destroy an unknown species. Species 8472, did not only want to destroy the Borg, they wanted to destroy everyone and everything. Kes mentioned it in Scorpion, part I. What are your thoughts?
@Leo Peridot rouge groups exit in the United states where they bombed and kill people including presidents before. At that point they arent American citizens anymore
Either Starfleet is destoryed and Earth is captured or Q'onos is destoryed? Welp, time for the Klingons to pack their bags. They started the war and I'd finish it. In a heartbeat. Same goes for the Dominion. As a WW2 buff, I still need to kick my ass into watching the Nazi episode. I mean, classic WW2 German uniforms, Nazis salutes and Swastikas on full display? Man, things used to be better back in the days. Nowadays, nothing other than a documentary or WW2 based movie could be able to do things like that without getting banned everywhere. Also, I say this not because I support the Nazis or whatever asinine conclusion that could be drawn from my words but because movies or TV shows should be allowed to use or do whatever they like in their stories. The Nazis were horrible but displaying their attire and using their gestures is protected under the 1st amendment. Also Spock in a M42 Stalhelm is hilarious looking.
Archer could have attempted one other deal with the alien captain, though its a real long shot. Ask him to transfer his crew onto Enterprise. The captain does say "anything else" but... Yeah, it would be really dangerous for them, and be asking another species to essentially join the war with the Xindi. At the very least Archer could have promised to return later (if they survive) with the Warp Coil and additional compensation. Would probably have still been a no, but at least he'd be attempting another option or two. Or heck, just ask the captain to carry Archer and his senior staff in their vessel so they can make the rendezvous on time. Then the allied Xindi could go and pick up Enterprise with the Subspace Rifts.
I would say 'Siege of AR-558' summarizes Starfleet's intentions thoughout ST's history quite accurately, more specifically the conversation between Quark and Nog.
@Leo Peridot I don't think they are. I just started the New Frotier series and enjoying it immensely. Any good evil Starfleet moments in there that you know of? No hardcore spoilers please, just a simple yes or no. On book 5 "Martyr."
? The problem isn’t starfleet being evil, the problem is the federation not being a utopia, apparently greed, and envy still exist along with drugs and alcoholism.
Theres a solution to that, invented by one Ioseph Dshugashvili. If the system doesnt work because people are wronk kind, remove the people. Or turn them into borg, whatever.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 You know, aside from the completely dehumanizing by-product of the Borg Collective, it actually is, in all other respects, a perfect society. There is no drug abuse, no crime, no unemployment, etc. Everyone has an equal education, everyone has health care, everyone is equal under the law, there is no discrimination, no war... Paradise. As long as you're okay with with having no freedom, no thoughts of your own, and no say in determining the entire course of your life.
@@arekpetrosian4965 What you just drscribed, was, sans education and healthcare a graveyard. I can accept the premise of a graveyard being perfect from the viewpoint of society, but its not a paradise. A paradise cannot be described by lack of something, it needs to be described by what it has. May I also remind that Viking Paradise, the Valhalla, has daily alcohol abuse, rampant violent crime, and constant war every single day where pretty much everyone dies a bloody horrible death. Healthcare is flawless though since everyone is resurrected for a feast. Loss of personal freedom is, to a human, suffering, though the american version is just whining.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 Sometimes I hate the internet. Things get lost in the communication attempt. I was making a joke, calling it a "paradise"; I should have been more obvious, or put a smiley face, or something. My bad. LOL
@@arekpetrosian4965 Yes the parentheses make your idea instantly much more understandable. The borg do indeed possess many signs of an ideal society, and, I wouldnt mind living in virtual reality better than holodeck. The borg are also incredibly egalitarian. But its still a purely athenian democracy, a pure and complete tyranny of the masses where you have no other value than what society assigns you, making you disposable like a paper cup. Having no friends, since in a hivemind friends are all same as others. Being addicted to the constant buzz of the unity, but also being completely, utterly alone. .... bit like self-isolation and internet addiction... :-/
From my point of view, Starfleet is evil! I’m pretty sure that banning synths, which resulted in Riker and Troi’s son dying, and Rios getting traumatized by his boss committing suicide after following Commodore Oh’s blackmail (either commit double murder on innocent synths, or your ship gets reduced to space junk) was evil. And allowing the Romulans to die in a supernova, which orphaned Elnor, Narek and Narissa, and set back Federation-Romulan relationships back a century was rather evil.
That's all from something that recycled the name Star Trek but has nothing to due with what Gene Roddenberry created. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that new trek is evil.
John Weatherman Picard is a great series! It’s a worthy sequel that makes us think twice about the Federation and its utopian society, it wraps up the loose threads of the TNG era, and does more than pander.
Human, they're humans. (Or sentient beings. That inherently means being flawed. Perfection doesn't exist, and imo it's rather a good thing, as I happen to think it would be pretty boring otherwise)
There wasn't any doubt that the man on the 1. place would be a the most badass and nuanced captain involved in a galactic war. That is one of the most insightful, deep and dark war story in SciFi.
I am sure Archer and Starfleet arranged for someone to find that ship and get them home in a timely manner. Should be easier after that part of space is being torn a new one and they have friends that live in the area.
"It is easy to be a saint when you live in paradise" - Benjamin Sisko, who was not living in paradise but on DS9
I think comparitively speaking that DS9 was paradise. Just speculation.
@Rosamund Powell In Star Trek Earth is indeed paradise. But when Sisko said "paradise" he did not mean earth particularly, he meant peace and prosperity. In the beginning, DS9 was always in the middle of political, ethnical and religious conflicts, the poverty of Bajor was increasing those conflicts. Later on, DS9 was in the epicentre of war.
Look on our world today. Since we have big crises, uncertainty and big changes of the way we live, civilisation got out of balance.
@@justinreed4613 Compared to earth nowadays, maybe.
Those who seek and worship evil always have complaints about those who have morals
The Federation was never evil... especially when President Janeway Instituted the Hunger Games.
If we're including Archer's temporary piracy gig, then you need to include Captain Ransom's torture and murder of multiple extradimensional beings to power his ship.
I think it's because Ransom's actions had no official sanction. When Starfleet ordered Archer to destroy the Xindi weapon they made it clear that anything goes.
@@trajan74 Sisko's actions with bringing the Romulans in the Dominion War did not have official sanction either. That was all him and Garak.
@@miketaterparker I'm pretty sure SFC was in on the plan to seduce the Senator. But even if they weren't I still don't think that one should count either. SFC didnt sanction the murder and all Sisko did was cover it up.
@@trajan74 Starfleet Intelligence might've known about the Sisko-Garak plot, maybe even helped out behind the scenes. But not Starfleet Command. If things went bad they'd sacrifice one errant Commander and one Cardassian criminal, not valuable Flag Officers in time of war. They know that the less they know the better.
@@pwnmeisterage starfleet actually did know, sisko states in the episode that he ran the plan past starfleet and they agreed to it
“In the Pale Moonlight” is a damn fine episode and presents quite a moral conundrum for Sisko. This episode is one of the main reasons I adore Deep Space Nine so much.
Probably my favorite DS9 episode, not because of the morality problems for Sisko...but as he's speaking into the log, he's also trying to justify his actions to you, the viewer.
Maybe DS-9's Best episode
One of the best episodes in the entire franchise .... real badass Sisko
Iiitss a faaaaake
My favorite episode, not only in DS9, but of every trek episode ever written
In Janeway's defense! This new species seemed pretty set on wiping EVERYBODY out, they didn't exactly have a lot of options. Least thats the impression that Kes and the writers gave us. Then a bit while later we learn, oh! They're not that bad! It was all a misunderstanding! A.k.a they had different writers pretty much doing whatever they wanted.
Sorry not going to defend Janeways ignorance. Anyone with half a brain would know the borg started the fight with another species. Then to suddenly act surprised was dumb. Chakotay was right and his plan saved her ass or else they would all be assimilated.
"The weak shall perish." includes pretty much everyone, the Borg just being the start of it.
In total agreement with you there as species 8472 planed to launch a war of extermination upon all the species in star trek galaxy starting with the borg and delta quadrant, so Janeway doing a deal with the devil you know; the borg to save their reality/realm and defeat species 8472 is nothing more than reasonable self defence. Particularly as they went no further than creating a weapon that allowed them to fight effectively and used that as a deterrent to force them to call off their invasion.
It was actually McCoy who realised the implication of using the Genesis Device on a planet where life already existed 😳
Yeah
Take that Trek Culture
And by the way,the script makes it clear that Starfleet did not develop the Genesis Device
Anyone that thinks Starfleet is dark in "Picard" obviously missed pretty much every season of DS9
When I saw the episode where Janeway made a deal with the borg I was thinking "WTF?" If I am the first officer, I would have conducted mutiny.
People who complained about Picard and Disco, clearly wach only memes on internet. Literally every series has such moment.
I know! The lighting on that station is horrendous.
Not only that, the dark episodes I. DE9 are among the best episodes ever written
While I agree with a couple of these things, the presenter seems to call "self defence" evil on a couple of occasions. Starfleet's lofty goals would mean precisely squat if the Federation is wiped out by an enemy. There's a fundamental difference between trying to get the Ba'ku's "nice to have" de-aging technology and stopping the Klingons (or the Dominion, or the Borg) from destroying the Federation.
In #4 OP left out one small detail: Species 8472's Catchhrase "The weak will perish". Once done with the Borg, 8472 intended to purge all life in the Milky Way Galaxy. JANEWAY, knowing this, Chose the lesser of two evils while looking to get her ship clear of Borg space.
A small detail of "your galaxy will be purged" as in kill trillions of people.
You've never seen the Voyager episdoe 'In the Flesh', have you?
You forgot the entire premise of Star Trek Insurrection. That was rather naughty, as well.
Forced relocations are okay when the Federation does it!
Star Trek Insurrection never happened
@@surorov1 I get that. History is written by the victors, and such. I suspect it would be most gratifying to see it fall in some kind of twisted episode based on a federation lie or propaganda that sent it all spiraling into its own demise, and then give rise to the terran empire seizing control at the right moment. Now humans are the aggressors, and the rest of the broken federation are frightened down to the core of their spleens. Begin season one of THE TERRANS. Bring up all the human vices and faults, then have them defeated repeatedly in a witty fashion to remind them of their place. Might be fun having the shoe on the other foot.
'Picard' is the Apocalype Timeline Future.
The SHIT is just that it's presented to us as the ONLY freaking Timeline!
Everything would be fine (no actually it's still seriously bad writing and i hate the Show for all it is) if they would have stated that!
And given us a Good Timeline!
One that makes Sense and isnt just obviously meant to be 'Oh, look, it's so terrible, but don't worry, Superman will safe us'-Shit.
God, 'Picard' was so bad and if we ever get more Star Trek it will surely be more of this Nonsense.
AND DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON ARCHERS FUCKED UP ADVENTURES! Some of his Episodes are like Acid Dreams! LITERALLY!
Bear in mind, most of Starfleet likely wasn't aware of this, in fact it's safe to assume that this deal was organised mainly under the authority of Admiral Quinn. While it's not a good chapter in their history, it hardly reflects on Starfleet as a whole
One of the greatest moments in all of Star Trek was when Sisko looked straight into the lens and said "I can live with it."
Certainly not in all of Star Trek, but possibly the best moment in DS9 I think belongs to Garak. Garak (to Sisko): "...and if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha quadrant and all it cost, was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Species 8472 wasn't just going to stop with the Borg though.They were going to destroy everything. Janeway made the deal as it was the lesser of two evils, as the Borg can be stopped, but 8472 was seemingly unstoppable.
Yep. They could have included the episode Tuvix instead as she basically kills someone who was pleading for their own life and that one was pretty iffy given they probably could have figured something else out given more time and the transporter tech.
@@wallacewallaby5782 Yep good one, and we have the similar Story of Enterprise season 3 with Trip getting injured badly and Archer desides to grow a clone of him "Sims". Sure, they though he would survive, and live and die naturally within a cople of days afterwards, but Phlox found out, Sims wouldnt survive. In the same time, Sims found out that there might be a way for him to grow normally and old, and in sense he is Trip. But Archers still desides Trip is more important that SIms.... tough and maybe evil choise.
Sounds like the 2016 presidential election
@@tgr.4550 And 2020 election. Probably nearly every election tbh.
@@wallacewallaby5782 No, just 16 and 20... and probably 24. Which aging old white guy with no grasp on the real world do you want to vote for?
The most damning thing of all? I can live with it. I CAN live with it...
Computer, Erase this entire video.
1: Is creating a tool that could destroy entire populations evil in spite of the intention for colonization or because of it? Is creating a warp core evil because it could be used to annihilate planets? Was creating Friendship One evil? No, it's using it for destructive purposes that is evil.
2: Archer isn't Starfleet personified - He is one man. Starfleet didn't steal a warp coil, Archer made the decision. His crew is also not Starfleet personified - They are only a few people. This act of piracy is not Starfleet's fault.
3: That one is difficult to defend, and honestly, I don't want to do that for Discovery anyway... But look down to 5.
4: Similar to 2, Sisko's act was specifically pointed out to NOT be done with any consent from Starfleet or the Federation. Not something Starfleet did, just a few officers. I'm sorry, are we blaming Starfleet for everything their officers do? Are the actions of Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix all of Starfleet's fault too, or are we ignoring that because this time they found out and sent Picard to stop him?
5: Genocide of an enemy that has specifically declared their intent to genocide your species first, and has demonstrated the capacity and willingness to do so, doesn't count as self-defense? No? Well I guess we're gonna deal in absolutes.
6: 2 and 4 again??? Really?? ANOTHER blame shift from one person to an organization they have CLEARLY gone against in this course of action??? FFS.
7: 5 again, wow, changing it up. I'm sorry, what were the stated war goals of Species 8472? Purge the galaxy? I feel like blowing up a few of their ships to spook them out of war is pretty justified in that situation.
Intermission 09:27 - Excuse me?!?! You literally just played the clip where CHAKOTAY finds that out, not JANEWAY, are you fucking kidding me????
I'm sorry, continue.
8: Section 31 isn't Starfleet. You can argue the corruption throughout Starfleet all you like, but the fact that all those Admirals supposedly in S31 couldn't just do it through Starfleet Intelligence shows that Starfleet couldn't - and DIDN'T - attempt to introduce a plague into the Founders. So I guess that's 4/10 that are shifting blame from the actually guilty party to Starfleet. Really good job.
9: No I do agree with this one. It was the whole point of the episode, after all, so, at least you do know how to pay attention.
10: Annnnnnd you ruined it. Literally. Half, guys. Half of your "Starfleet's evil acts" were NOT Starfleet.
But Starfleet condoned all of it...!
Not one person was ever punished for their acts...!
In most cases, if Starfleet didn’t come right out and tell them
make this happen by any means necessary, then it was implied...
@@troystutsman1400 How would you know that? Its never addressed in the episodes what Starfleet's reaction is. In most cases, these examples are never brought up again. Additonally, we can also prove that Starfleet is unaware of some of these, such as Sisko's attempts to bring the Romulans into the war.
@@troystutsman1400 no starfleet never autherised some of these actions, as for punishment, who where they going to punish. in several epesodes involving Section 31 Sisco says afterwards.......
"they dont exsist there a no records of the indviduls involved and all security footage has been deleted"
WTF is supposted to happen next? Theres no everdance and no clues
@mjkalasky I don't know that I would argue Archer's actions, even for a "greater good", were right. I would argue that, if he had gotten another warp coil and taken it to the ship he stole from, fixing the damage he'd done would maybe have been a good thing. As for Measure of a Man, again, the whole point of the episode.
5. Founders declared war on the federation almost a year after s31/starfleet infected odo. Dominion in jemadar requested that the alpha quadrant stay out of the gama quadrant because they viewed it as a violation of their space and it is. What they do allow cardassians/romulans to try and genocide the dominion in season 3. Sisko was literally told do nothing while they potentially genocide the founders. This only push the dominion into heavier actions.
Starfleet command was against odo from the very beginning. Several episodes in s1 and s2 they wanted to force odo out of chief of security.
Section 31 is basically Starfleet. There are members of s 31 in the highest branches of Starfleet and federation. Sisko own words "starfleet says they are appalled at the idea of s31 but arent doing anything to stop it. Admiral ross openly supported s31 plans in the romulan episode.
Star fleet didn’t create the genesis device. Human independent scientists created it. The Federation simply willing to test the technology.
Well, that's true but as I remember, David Marcus was reluctant to see the Genesis project in Starfleet hands. Such distrust in the military means something...
@@estudiordl From a man who himself invented a weapon of mass destruction using an illegal substance which every ethical scientist in the galaxy denounced as dangerously unpredictable. I think if we're fair, the Marcus's downplayed the negative aspects of Genesis.
@@lawrence5584 I didn't see that, so true. One would think after 200 years scientist would know if you are splitting the atom again, someone would make the bomb, again. 😏😉
"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it."
-Michael Eddington, DS9
One of my favorites he was very much right. That was on of the few things I disagreed with that Sisko was upset by.
It's an interesting criticism of the United States. However in this case the maquis is not the group of settlers who left the Federation. It's the paramilitary guerilla organisation killing cardassians and giving cardassians the opportunity to threaten the truce between Cardassia and the Federation. The maquis are risking forcing war on the Federation to keep or possibly in retaliation for losing some planets of their own. It's selfish and somewhat materialistic. Perhaps also a criticism of some aspects of US culture.
I understand why George Washington sought independence for his adopted country but a fight against injustice does not a just country make. In the pursuit of freedom it became acceptable to bear arms against others to protect what was yours. But what if it was not really yours in the first place? What if you have plenty and allow others to starve through no fault of their own? Does personal freedom Trump a duty to help and protect others, all others regardless of dividing lines invented to justify selfish values?
because like the first nations people of today they are taking back their lands one gambling debt at a time ;)
But wasn't the federation that signed those colonies over to Cardassia?
@@limburgishmapping7166 Yup. They gave them the colonies and told the colonist they had to leave and settle somewhere else that the Federation would choose or allow or stay and live under Cardassian rule with out Federation assistance.
My favorite Star Trek: Voyager episode. It felt good to f see the Borg run away from a species they couldn't assimilate for once. Species 8472 was badass.
"In the Pale Moonlight" is such a good episode!
@Greg Frost That's it?! You're behind quota, friend!
just good? BEST ST episode EVER I'd say. Has the kind of drama and deepness, which can easily rival the most hardcore 50's noir. The only thing it is missing is sepia filter and fedoras...
When Captain Sisco says, "I can live with it", and tries to get comfortable on the sofa and says it again, you know he just isn't comfortable at all with the chain of events he set in motion.
That is a great episode.
By good, you mean greatest...right?
@@TheLenaweeTrekker When it's all on the line you do what you have to.
You forgot displacing a people to grab their lands in Insurrection. very trail of tears vibe on that one
Hell they did that one twice. First time with actual Natives
@@KalEL224 I don't remember this episode. Could you tell me which one it was (and which series)?
@@sergioaccioly5219 Star Trek TNG season 7 episode 20 journey’s end
That was when Sisco became my favorite Captain. "Computer, delete that entire personal log."
Hes not my favorite, but damn was i happy at that moment!
This list can be justified as necessary:
10. Genesis device was created to terraform and create life not destroy it. It can be used for evil but, that’s not its purpose. A warp core can blow up a planet, those are WMDs too then.
9. There was no alternative. If Captain Archer didn’t steal the coil then they would fail the mission which means many lives lost. They weighed up the moral implications, you did not.
8. That was an all out war and they had a weapon that would win, I’d consider it as an option since freedom was at stake. Granted it came with collateral damage but that may be a necessity to win.
7. I cannot justify this one well. Though I agree with the Maquis’ overall motives, Sisko had to deal with a terrorist quickly and so called his bluff.
6. It’s not genocide, the Borg aren’t a race, they’re an infectious cybernetic disease. Though a drone can get regain its humanity, these are through unique conditions thus making it impossible to rehabilitate all other drones to be effective. They should’ve infected the collective as originally planned to potentially save civilisation.
5. That was a rogue agent not official an Federation directive.
4. Janeway chose the lesser of two evils.
3. Once again, they were at all out war. The Federation had a weapon to win it so they used it, the only collateral was one security officer. That’s a bargain. And at the end of the day, it was a contributing factor in winning the war.
2. Yeah that was pretty bad.😕 But nothing like this had ever happened, it wasn’t law yet.
1. That was a necessary action to win the war. Either that or totalitarianism for centuries. Freedom was won and like Garak said all it cost was one romulan senator, one criminal, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer, which was a bargain.
Sometimes evil is necessary to save freedom and lives.
‘People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.’
- Richard Grenier, derived from George Orwell
"You cant handle the truth! Son we live in a world that has walls and those have to be guarded by men with guns. […] I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. […] And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something, you use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand at post."
- Col. Nathan R. Jessep
“There’s a point, far out there when the structures fail you, when the rules aren’t weapons anymore. They’re shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day, you may face such a moment of crisis. And in that moment, I hope you have a friend like I did, to plunge their hands into the filth so that you can keep yours clean!”
-Comm. James Gordon
You want me on that wall you need me on that wall
Thank you so much you put what I’ve been thinking very eloquently and I greatly appreciate it because this is true because when you look at some things from World War II in our own planet and other stuff there of been some pretty nasty things done as well to cut to get the ends of a means
You forgot the enslavement of the mark 1 series of the Emh, they are sentient. When the doctor from Voyager wrote a holonovel, it became a revolutionary holonovel to the emh mk1s who were being used as mine workers
Doctor was never viewed as sentient by anyone other than Voyager. He was only given rights to control his works.
@@Shadothecat That's the point. The doctor was seen as property rather than a life form, the same as Data was, although the EMH holograms seem to have been treated worse, especially once they became "obsolete". It's obvious they were sentient, since Voyager's EMH was able to create his own art and had interests beyond his programming as a doctor.
I was going to mention this as well. It goes hand in hand with Data being Starfleet property. I suppose it doesn't help that the Doctor is my favorite Star Trek character of all time.
@@ethanpottratz9058 mine too
Why in so many sci-fi shows, do artificial humanoid creations meant for work, menial labor, used only as tools, etc, are either given near or full sentience, allowed to attain sentience, or checks are not put in place to prevent that? (Prevention of them attaining sentience is another philosophical discussion, but for everyones' benefit, it should not be allowed for designated "workers".)
Then either minor issues occur (relatively minor- fighting for your freedom is absolutely not minor, but it's far less destructive than), to full uprisings by synthetic beings? Usually followed by war and death on both sides.
They should make one group of synthetics for solely work, and another as full-fledged lifeforms with the same rights as biological beings.
" That's why you came to me isn't it captain? You knew I could do those things you weren't capable of... "
Are we going to just forget about how Captain Janeway straight up MURDERS Tuvix?
Exactly!
She didn't even give the Doctor an inch of a bit of time to find an alternative solution.
He found the cure to bring back Neelix & Tuvok.
From this and the available technology, he could have searched for a way to preserve all 3 lives.
Instead, Captain Jackassway was like:
"We got the cure? Fine, let's kill Tuvix now."
Even the Doctor was highly disgusted by that, and said to her:
"It's murder. I'm out. Do it yourself."
( Not the exact quote, but that's the idea."
Tuvix was never a thing. Stop trying to make Tuvix happen.
So, you think she should have murdered Tuvok and Neelix instead? Why does everyone forget the other side to the equation? 2 lives or 1?
@@Paulafan5 Nice false equivalency there bud. At that time, Tuvok and Neelix were already gone. In the present, it was Tuvix. What created Tuvix was an accident, and no one was at fault. Destroying him was plain murder.
Paulafan5, 2 or 1? By that logic, it’s acceptable to murder someone for their organs. That is the equivalent of what was done to Tuvix.
10. Starfleet did not create the Genisos device. They funded it. They did not invent it.
9. Enterprise is pre Starfleet.
8. Discovery is not in the established timeline, this is a perfect example of why it is not.
5. Gill was a rogue agent, he was not acting under Federation / Starfleet orders.
3. Section 31 is a rogue faction of the Federation. They are not Starfleet / Federation proper.
2. Starfleet did not claim Data was property. Maddox did. Starfleet allowed the trial to prove his individuality.
Enterprise is pre-Federation, not pre-Starfleet. Remember in one episode Archer said he proposed to a woman? She turned him down because she would become a "Starfleet widow"
Picard had to fight tooth and nail and use his political weight to get that trial. Starlet had just accepted Madox theories and gave up Data with out much of a fight.
The fact that they bowed to political pressure and allowed for a trial was more of a show then anything.
Thank you!
And the US military did not the develop the nuclear bomb, they just funded it. But the funding of a device that can be used as a weapon of mass destruction is bad enough if your actual standards on this issue is not to use them or to have them.
Starfleet predates the Federation. Enterprise is only pre-Federation not pre-Starfleet.
DIS is in the established timeline. Accept it.
I'll give you Gil. He was acting on his own.
Section 31 is part of Starfleet. Always were. They even get their name from Starfleet's founding documents. They are just so clandestine that barely anybody knows about their existence. But not only that, their actions towards the end of the Dominion War were known to Starfleet Command. Admiral Ross sanctioned their use of Dr. Bashir to assassinate a Romulan politician to replace her with somebody with a more favourable view of the Federation, and after Bashir and O'Brien found out about the virus developed by Section 31, Starfleet Medical blocked their attempts to finding a cure.
And last but not least, who do you think approved Maddox's attempt to seize Data as property? That was Starfleet, Maddox was not operating on his own. And if it had not been for Picard pulling strings to get a trial going and really going all out within it to prove Data's case, Starfleet would not have given a damn about Data's rights as a person.
@@GermanLeftist good job! However I doubt this guy even reads or cares. There are so many trolls like these its crazy.
I also disagree with associating Starfleet with that professor who turned a planet into Nazis. Here's the thing: Starfleet itself did NOT sanction what that professor did. He went rogue by disobeying the Prime Directive. The PD states that interference with non-warp capable civilizations is an absolute no-no. It didn't matter that the professor witnessed chaos and internecine conflicts. The ethical thing for him to have done would've been to let events unfold naturally & do NOTHING. So that professor became a war criminal according to the stipulations, regulations, and articles of Starfleet's own protocol: the Prime Directive.
"Patterns of Force". One of the top 12 TOS episodes. Moments before his death, John (the fuhrer) Gill told Kirk that even historians make mistakes. "The Prime Directive is the only way." Fast forward to "Bread and Circuses"... Merchant Captain R. Merrick (SF academy washout, aka Merrikus) totally throws out the regulations book. Brought his entire crew from the damaged ship down to New Rome. After telling that planet's leadership a hell of a lot about SF, the Federation, etc., many of the S.S. Beagle adapt to life on that world. Some don't and are sentenced to be fodder for televised gladitorial games as barbarians. Merrick does one last noble act and gets the landing party transported back to the Enterprise at the expense of his own life; the cultural contamination is done.
In the TNG novel "Captains Honor", decades have passed and somehow New Rome is brought into the Federation family.
Um, as far as Janeway and 8472
"We will purge your galaxy of all life."
Yeah, unless I can tern 8472 away from that, war is on, buddy.
Should have been Tuvix on this list. Not Scorpion
Nah men, Janeway is borderline evil. She make mirror universe Philippa Georgiou look like a saint.
The assassination of the romulan senator was always the plan. Garak knew the data rod would not pass muster. However, a data rod recovered from a destroyed ship, and thus slightly damaged, would just not pass muster purely because of the damage to the ship. He explained it at the end of the episode.
@Leo Peridot Did you watch the episode at all? The entire episode in question was Sisko trying to come to terms with the deeply horrible things he was a party to. He never thought he was in the right. The only, ONLY reason he could even live with what happened was because it was a tactical military and political move that would potentially save his homeland. As for Sisko as a religious leader, have you watched Star Trek: Deep Space Nine? At best, for most of the series, he's a reluctant leader who would take an out. That's not to say DS9 doesn't portray religious leaders with an agenda. In that respect Winn Adami is the perfect juxtaposition. Ambitious, fundamentalist, and willing to abandon all her beliefs if someone offered more power over her adversary.
McCoy pointed out Genesis could be a WMD, not Spock.
The Klingons immediately (and correctly) called it a "Genesis Torpedo".
As opposed to merely glassing the planet?
As if they know what they are talking about.
I mean, 103 years later after the Genesis device. The Vulcans (and Starfleet) created the Red Matter... and if you watch Star Trek (2009). You know how that work..
@@johnilarde8440 2009? There was no Star Trek in 2009
One thing you totally missed: DS9's two-parter, Homefront/Paradise Lost. Starfleet's head of security organized a coup of the Federation under everyone's noses. Sisko had to hold Admiral Layton at gunpoint before he gave up on his plan, and even then it took the "betrayal" of one of his underground officers for him to realize it was over.
Also, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, another Section 31 episode where Starfleet complies under the table while a plot to assassinate the head of the Romulan Tal Shiar (which is later revealed to be a bid to entrench their spy) plays out behind the Dominion War.
Starfleet does some nasty shit in DS9. I kinda love it.
The Undiscovery Country, a Starfleet admiral involved in assesinations with klingons
Swish Fish why does everyone think section 31 is apart of Star fleet
@@sonofthewolfguardianofthef1214 It technically is though it operates completely separate, at least in DS9 it did. It is established and allowed by the Starfleet Charter, Article 14 Subsection 31. Hence the name. It predates the Federation, which is also technically separate from Starfleet. But that one is still controversial amoungst the fandom.
@@sonofthewolfguardianofthef1214 They totally are. Just not "officially". That's part of the menace of S31, they're slimy as fuck.
@@sonofthewolfguardianofthef1214 because it fucking is! It is made pretty clear in DS9 that central command is well aware of what they are doing and they condone it! Maybe they even ordered it.
Also, in Discovery they are clearly a branch of Starfleet.
I was gonna riot if you didn't include Lal's death, but you included Measure of a Man so I'm OK. But seriously....this was after it was established that Data had rights as a sentient being. By all accounts, his child should inherit those rights. But they were blatantly violated during a time of incredibly sensitive cognitive development in Lal's life, causing a cascade failure which killed her. Measure of a Man is at least vaguely understandable, since there was no legal precedent, but once there was it didn't even matter to them.
The weirdest thing about Measure of a Man is that you'd think there *was* a precedent. How could Data be admitted to (and graduate from) Starfleet academy if he wasn't even recognised as a living being?
@@AeneasGemini If that episode was 2 hours longer we could add all the people who allowed Data into the StarFleet Academy into the process.
The problem with Picard is that it portrays the entirety of Starfleet as EVIL.
The better written Treks had rogue members of Starfleet and dealt with the issues with some nuance.
Picard doesn't because Kurtzman is a hack.
I think Picard was very consistent with existing lore.
A few synthetics do something bad, so all are banned and branded as villains out of fear, prejudice, and bigotry, showing Starfleet's shallow, reactionary nature.
A few models of genemods do bad things, so all of the other trillions of possible models are banned and branded as villains out of fear, prejudice, and bigotry.
Same. Exact. Behavior. Starfleet's behaving no different in Picard than it did in the past.
@Matthew Gillespie that is absolutely correct, sir.
'In the Pale Moonlight' is my favorite episode of any Trek show. Superb writing and performances from the cast. That speech from Garak at the end is just *chef's kiss*:
"And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don’t know about you, but I’d call that a bargain."
Turning all the EMH mk1 in to in slave miner should be on this list.
These are mostly bad actors within Starfleet, not the institution itself.
Yeah, it's a pretty important distinction that the defenders of Picard would prefer not to notice
Keeps blaming"Starfleet" for the choices of individual people or small groups, so many better examples available. Insurrection as an example. Also "Starfleet" didn't develope Genesis they only funded it.
Genesis was for rapid terraforming of planets. Only evil if misused. Seems rather op though. Of course protomater that was used in Genesis is the real kicker, throw that into a sun and by-by solar system.
Insurrection? Yeah moving 600 space hippies who weren't even native to the planet and in Federation space who were also hoarding a cure for death to save 800 billion people is real evil, the devil's work.
@@samuelbarber4154 "to save 800 billion people from death." You clearly have little to no clue what they were after, or how they intended to use it. Dougherty made it clear it was going to be used in a military capacity. Yeah if you think he had any good intentions you should just find a new sci fi I.P. probably.
The fact that these individuals didn't face harsh consequences for their actions speaks a lot of where Starfleet was at.
Also: 'they only funded it' is a dumb argument.
@@VuotoPneumaNN well you're not very bright. As for the 2nd part, it wasn't an argument or a statement of opinion it was simply a clarification of the facts. As for the consequences, please tell us all about those consequences since they were never actually stated in any source, in fact in non canon sources such as 'Before Dishonor' it appears as though Starfleet went under major changes post Insurrection considering the 2 people in charge seemed to be Nachayev (a vice admiral in TNG) and admiral Jellico (a captain in TNG). It's one thing to argue about Kirk's repurcussions it's another thing to suggest for instance that the Undiscovered Country conspirators got off light. There's just no evidence of that. Stop using your assumptions as arguments.
What about Tuvix? A completely unique sentient being was murdered because Janeway wanted Tuvok and Neelix back, which wasn't even guaranteed.
Tuvix was created due to an error, wouldn’t Tuvok and Nelix’s lives be equally as important?
Most evil would be "star trek motion picture uniforms" also Q never got to eat his ice cream!
Nooooo
What about the android population from the. " I Mudd." episode ???. What happened to all those replicas of Mudd'.s wife Stella?.. The Federation could have a.field day.there. Or planet Exo 3 " What are little girls made of?," the android spinning machine? as I call it. Theres other androids besides Data.
Yet the Federation bans genetic engineering " we don't want another Khan noonien. Singhn,".
@@johnbockelie3899 if I had any money, I’d be sipping jippers on a beach somewhere!
@Logic Police frell that!
"Before there was Dukat there was Michael Eddington" ...eh no, Dukat was in DS9 since the pilot.
You're missing the message.
Did "Section 31" create the Coronanvirus?
Section 31 = CIA?
Garry Tam
No because we no the CIA exists. Section 31 isn’t known to anyone.
Most of those examples are of deeds of individuals, not Starfleet in general. And most are Post-Roddenberry era - so there's that...
Samples from STD are not valid, because it's also Kurzman-Era like Picard.
Exactly. Scratch #8 right off the list. Klutzman and his crew haven't done ANYTHING worthy of being called Star Trek!
OK Roddenberry era:
General Order 12.// Correction 24
Provocation is a planet leader kidnapped the two stars of the show, a space stenographer and a couple of security guards. Kill almost all life on a planet because you lost a half dozen officers and we're lied to. I doubt if the USSR, Red China or NATO would have considered that a proportional response.
@@STho205 That was General Order 24, and Kirk was possibly bluffing. The order most likely exists, but only to be used in the most extreme situations. Let's not forget that Anon 7 wanted the whole Enterprise crew to beam down for disintegration. Kirk wasn't having that.
@@steakslave it is an egocentric script from the USS Ponderosa. If contract actors get killed or threatened all hell is unleashed. If some security guards, a few hundred people and some onscreen extras get torched, ahhhh too bad. Break the tension with a corny knee slapping joke at the end.
The first 20 script episodes didn't do that as much, but it became a staple as the show became more if a western. People tuned in to see the office family and what adventures happened before the gigantic reset button was hit in the epilogue.
WNMHGB was a dramatic and tragic ending without a button. So was City. Most other tragedies were eventually laughed off like Doctor Who does.
I thought TNG was a tedious show, but they didn't always end with a laugh. I'll give them that, despite a the corny jokes inside the episodes.
What did Gene Roddenberry do for a living 1942 to 1945?
Not that I blame him, or my Dad or myself... But he was no real peacenick when SHTF.
The whole plot of Star Trek Insurrection proves Starfleet is evil.
Sorry, gotta side with the Federation on that one. Starfleet was well within their right to move the Baku, and the power they were sitting on had the ability to save hundreds of thousands of lives during a war that was destined to take millions more. That would have been less than 50,000 people put in a different home, versus a death toll of 50x that, seems like a no-brainer to me. "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" after all.
Besides, it's not like Picard hadn't been part of many other forced relocations for dumber reasons. He's got no moral ground to stand on.
@@swishfish8858 not to mention that wasn't even their original homeworld. They were just space hippies who were hoarding a cure for death. They literally had to make the Sona genocidal to make the Baku look good by comparison
Fuck Star Trek Insurrection
Swish Fish the Baku had a population of 600, the Federation? Something like 800 billion.
@@samuelbarber4154 so,how many are neccessary to make it a crime?
@@swishfish8858 None of that gives the Federation any right. And as a great commander once said: "It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival."
Is it okay to kill 1 person for their organs if it means you can save 5 with them?
In the Pale Moonlight is maybe my favorite DS9 episode.. just perfect storytelling. Even if the log gets deleted at the end.
10 - That wasn't the intention. Doesn't make them evil.
9 - Enterprise had to steal the warp coil to save Earth from being destroyed. That wasn't them being evil and seeing how Starfleet didn't order it to happen, it certainly wasnt them being evil.
8 - Nothing from DIS or PIC can be used as an example.
7 - Wrong to do, but this is Sisko's personal vendetta. Not a Starfleet action.
6 - Questionable, but it isn't evil to launch a strike against a threat that is responsible for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of worlds.
5 - This was one man, not Starfleet.
4 - Janeway's decision to do this in an act of desperation to save her crew. Again, this isn't Starfleet's decision.
3 - Section 31's action was not sanctioned by Starfleet.
2 - Hardly evil when they considered a machine to be a machine only. They had a trial and that was that. Would anyone evil accept the result of that trial?
1 - Again, this was Sisko's action. Not Starfleet.
Honestly, I can't believe this list didn't include the incident with the Ba'ku. One of the few genuine villainous moments from Starfleet itself and you didn't even include it.
Oh, and there was also the plot as seen in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. Another sorely missed from this list.
7 - Sisko used Starfleet resources and personnel to take that action. He was in uniform, representing the Federation and Starfleet. He committed a war crime, which should have seen him jailed whether he was acting personally or not.
That Starfleet did not court martial him, nor take any action against him at all, shows they were quite willing to allow it. That makes them complicit in his crime.
@@maisiesummers42 fabricating a secret meeting isn't a war crime. Garak was the one that committed murder, which I still wouldn't classify a war crime anyway and Sisko didn't report it because of the bigger picture. War is terrible and terrible things need to be done to win. Just imagine if the Dominion had won. Garak said himself something like "humans have rules [in war]. Rules that make winning difficult." He has a good point.
@@AshPrimeDCFC Number 7 was Sisko using the biological weapon on the planet to poison the atmosphere for decades and drive out the Marquis.
Four number 1. Starfleet did know about the plan to bring in the Romulans. Sisco told that Admiral and the Federation backed the plan, but would claim no knowledge of anything should Sisco fail.
Was going to say pretty much the exact same that none of these are Starfleet, but rather individuals, or they're not evil at all.
Seriously, its like the people running this channel have never actually watched Star Trek.
You said "with shameless and wicked intent" but this is the list you provide, I'd argue only number 1 fits that criteria
#10: Because technology can be used as a weapon does not mean that is why it was created, besides why would they need that when a Constitution class vessel and basically level a planet anyway
#9: Evil would have been slaughtering them, or just taking without leaving supplies. Very damn dark however
#8: From Discovery, shouldn't be on this list as Picard and Discovery are from the same production era and therefor thematically similar, you're trying to show Starfleet has previously been depicted as evil
#7: They even said in the episode that he didn't get approval for this from Starfleet Command, although the fact he wasn't sent to a penal colony is tacit approval
#6: I don't get this one, yes it's considered but it's abandoned when thee true horrible scope of what is been proposed actually means morally is confronted, isn't that opposite of evil?
#5: Not a sanctioned operation, in fact the Enterprise crew work to undo and correct the situation
#4: So you ignore that 8472 was planning to destroy all life in the galaxy? Borg wanted to turn the weapon into a WMD which voyager wouldn't do. Janeway didn't want to wipe out 8472, just defend the galaxy as we know it from annihilation
#3: Finally you get to one that I agree shows a truly evil act by the Federation
#2: Wait up, the ranking starfleet officer heard the arguments from 2 officers and made the judgement Data was sentient and had individual rights, how is this showing starfleet as evil?
#1: Again another actual good choice
Ones I think would have made for a better list, no specific order, altho some I still agree wouldn't meet the "with shameless and wicked intent" criteria but still evil imo
* TNG: Insurrection
* DS9 S7E16 Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
* TNG S7E12 The Pegasus
* TNG S7E20 Journey's End
Plenty of material that starfleet can be evil, as Sisko said "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" but all in all most of this list was weak.
I agree with you.
Thanks for covering everything I was thinking and honestly a lot more.
Lp
I like Picard, and think their views of Starfleet are a good statement on the current world and how there's always hope against it.
"Hardcore" trekkies are going to kill my family because of this.
I'm not a hardcore Trekkie. I wish I could watch Picard. I saw part of the pilot episode, looks fascinating enough. Either way, the world today is too obsessed with negativity. They'll shit on anything, everything, to pass the time.
@@Saint_nobody - If there was nothing to complain about they'd complain about not having anything to complain about - it seems to make them feel better about their own insecurities.
Whining and being offended by everything in existence, that's what our modern society is all about(or so it seems at times). And now I've likely offended someone so somebody will probably complain...
I'm a pretty hardcore Trekkie and I agree...it's Discovery & Enterprise I can't get into.
OG hardcore “watched in black and white” Trekkie here, and I love Picard.
I think Picard does a great job at showing that the high ideals of The Federation have to be fought for continuously. You don't earn them at some point and then magically it stays like that forever. No, you have to keep earning that paradise. DS9 showed the same thing.
#10, Starfleet did not create the genesis device. Federation scientists created it. That would be like blaming the U.S. Navy for creating the atomic bomb.
#9. The series Enterprise should not even be considered cannon, considering how many times it contradicted the Original Series.
#8. Star Trek Discovery is on CBS All-Access which is a subscription service, and therefore should not be considered cannon either.
#7. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was always intended to be a "darker" version of the Federation. But again, you attribute the actions of one man to all of Starfleet.
#6. Whole point of the episode. How do you deal with an enemy with whom you cannot reason or negotiate? So yes, imperfect human beings consider a final solution. But, in the end they make the right choice. Side note, all Borg are not human, they are from many different species.
#5. Again, you attribute the misguided actions of a single man on all of Starfleet. This is OBVIOUSLY not what Starfleet stands for.
#4. As mentioned by a couple of other viewers, Species 8472 intended to cleanse the entire universe of biological life. You can come back from being a borg, but you can't come back from annihilation.
#3. Section 31 is NOT part of Starfleet. It is more akin to the Romulan's Tal Shiar or the Cardassian's Obsidian Order. It was a star-chamber like group operating outside of Federation authority.
#2. Again, the ENTIRE point of the episode - Guinan even points out the slavery connotations to Picard. It was an examination of how human beings have treated those who were different from themselves. In the end, they come to the correct conclusion. Data is NOT property.
#1. And again, Deep Space Nine was written as a "darker" version of the Federation, and while Sisco agreed to the deception, he did not agree to or condone the murder. Even if he had, it is the action of individuals, and NOT Starfleet as a whole.
Far worse would be when Admiral Nechayev, relayed orders from Starfleet Command, to remove the colonists of Native American descent from Dorvan V in the episode "Journey's End." Now that was an act of Starfleet, the organization, and not an individual member of Starfleet. After all, individuals may not be perfect and not always follow the rules like they're supposed to. It's only when those in charge (Starfleet Command, and/or the Federation Council) violate their own rules that you can say the act was committed by that organization.
*Genesis Device* - Anything that manipulates vast sums of energy can be turned into a weapon. Like the antimatter fuel of any warp capable vessel. A single metric ton of antimatter is about 2-3 times more powerful than _all the nuclear weapons in the world today._ And a large starship of Kirk's era, like the Constitution class, carries _many tons_ of this stuff. In terms of destructive potential, the Genesis Device is really nothing special. Its application as a weapon of conquest is practically zero: there are cheaper, more readily available means of wiping out a planet. The advantage of Genesis is that it leaves behind a habitable planet, but you do not colonize enemy planets on the front line of an ongoing war.
*Archer steals a warp coil* - Captain Archer is not Starfleet. He is a captain in Starfleet. Starfleet did not strand some aliens in interstellar space by stealing a warp coil. Archer did.
*Planning to blow up Qo'noS* - I have no criticisms about this one. Starfleet was straight up evil here. They considered and approved a heinous act of terror that would have murdered billions of civilians.
*Sisko poisons a planet* - Sisko acted without the approval of Starfleet. Once again, this is the action of a single ship, not the entire organization of Starfleet. Though I admit it is quite suspect he wasn't immediately court-martialed and put in the slammer.
*Picard almost kills the Borg with math* - Everyone has the _potential_ to be a good person, but not everyone is. We judge people by their actions, not what they _could_ do, or in this case, what they could become. The Borg are belligerent, effectively genocidal, and do not have noncombatants. Wiping them out may not have been the "good" decision, but it certainly wouldn't have been evil, either. Picard put his conscience above the lives of countless billions of people all across the galaxy, who might have lived if the Borg had been stopped that day.
*Space Nazis* - Once again: this disastrophe was the result of a single person who acted without the knowledge or approval of Starfleet.
*A deal with the Borg* - Captain Janeway acts without the knowledge or approval of Starfleet. Judge Janeway however you wish, but _Starfleet_ had nothing to do with these events.
*Section 31's morphogenic virus* - Yep. Maybe not all of Sarfleet knew about this, but the top brass did, or at least tacitly condoned it by allowing Section 31 to operate so freely.
*Data is a toaster* - Starfleet really dropped the ball here. This might really be the worst thing Starfleet ever did, when you consider the implications.
*Garak blows up an ambassador* - Sisko was attempting to get the Romulans on Starfleet's side by using diplomacy and subterfuge. He did so with Starfleet's approval as well. However, neither Sisko nor Starfleet had _any_ idea about Garak's intention to plant a bomb on the ambassador's ship. Sisko might have decided it was worth it _after_ it happened, but probably wouldn't have agreed to it beforehand. And it's pretty clear he never told Starfleet about it either, so once again these are the actions of individuals, and not Starfleet as an organization.
So of this list of 10 things, only 9 of which are actually evil, Starfleet can only really be culpable for 3 of them.
Data is a toaster - actually it was mostly due to ambitions of Maddox. Starfleet just had no laws defending artificial beings. Cpt. Picard made a precedent by defending AI rights. Then Federation government will make it a law. That's how democracy works.
I do not count Discovery and Picard episodes, cause they are not Star Trek.
we are seen antimatter explosions in star trek and they weren't all that
Lots of wiggle room here. Two of the incidents were vetoed by Starfleet personel in one way or another (Data's side won the hearing, Picard decided not to genocide the Borg). A couple were Section 31, which is not really part of Starfleet. Likewise, Sisco never planned to murder Vreenak. That was all Garak. Voyager never agreed to genocide Species 8472, just defeat them militarily. The Genesis Device was never meant to be a weapon. And so on. Starfleet DOES have biosphere and even sun-destroying weapons, and almost never uses them.
A few moderately armed ships could glass a planet with directed energy beams and antimatter warheads. That's just their conventional day-to-day shit they shoot off willy-nilly. A planet killing device seems underwhelming in a universe like that.
Section 31 is part of Starfleet. It is made pretty clear in DS9 that Central Command endorsed both the plot to infect the Founders and the one to remove the Romulan senator and substitute her with a Federation mole. They also agreed to trick the Romulans into the war, even tho their version of the plan didn't involve murdering Vreenak.
@@VuotoPneumaNN Sloane on the other hand made it sound like Section 31 operated completely independently of Starfleet. If it did coordinate with the Federation leadership, I suspect it was only a few bad apples (or desperate men) in Starfleet who signed off on it. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31
@@WUZLE lol what show have you watched? You think Sloane is the one to trust?
@@VuotoPneumaNN Who do you trust then? The corrupt Starfleet admiral who colluded in the overthrow and likely death of a Romulan who was an ally? Working with Sloane the was an act of desperation during wartime. It doesn't mean that Section 31 is officially part of Starfleet.
The Drumhead was pretty dark too.
it was kind of the opposite of this list though...that JAG lady decided to go on a witch hunt and pissed everyone off so much that the admiral overseeing the investigation just got up and left. I'd say that's a win for Starfleet IMO.
The Drumhead is an eerie echo of what the world would inevitably become. And in a way, what it's really always been.
@@swishfish8858 it kind of already happened. The whole episode was an allegory of the anti-communist MCarthy trails in the US where so many people including many figures in Hollywood were merely found guilty by association and were persecuted for it in violation of the 1st amendment of the US constitution.
Of course, Psycho Janeway thought it was a good idea. The actors in Voyager are fantastic. The characters, on the other hand, are jackasses.
When you take event out of context of in the episode you can make all shorts of judgments..
8472 wasnt just taking borg. They try to dissolve ensign kim. They for days sent kes threatening messages. 7 stated it herself when they discover the earth recreation that 8472 built. The only contact that voyager got was your galaxy will be purged. Ultimately they never gave the borg anything. Hint why the borg queen want 7 back but as an individual in dark frontier.
I admit to being baffled by the modern attempt to completely rewrite the history of Voyager. It wasn't the greatest show; it surely wasn't the crap many people seem to want to make it out to be. Janeway in particular is being singled out for a complete distortion of who her character was. I always considered her a great captain. With flaws. A very well rounded character that Mulgrew played perfectly. Thank the gods this show came along before wokeness destroyed women.
@@michaeldominic3183 What the hell is "wokeness"?
@@dylanogg347 The word has actually been around for quite a while. In current times it is a slang word used used to masquerade self righteousness as enlightenment. It is particularly abused in the feminist movement when it is abused to portray women as perfect and men as idiots.
@@michaeldominic3183 Oh...that...
I like that episode you chose as number one. As Garak said that he, Sisko, saved millions of federation lives and it only cost the life of one criminal and one romulan senator. You sacrifice a few lives to make sure that many more will live. In a war that is a decision that can become a reality. Also, it was the sort of the excuse to use the A bomb in WW2. Sadly, but sometimes the end justify the means.
Sadly, we have learned thsat the US NEVER needed to use the H biombs on Japan, so that analogy is no longer valid. It's more on the lines of McCoy telling Spock, "If killing 5 lives, saves 10, it's a bargain. Is that your simple logic?"
@@loulfw2513 If 2 people not considered allies, are sacrificed to save billions, it is a bargain for STDS9. The US may have not needed to use the A bombs on Japan, as already they have internal struggles between those who wanted to surrender and end the war, and those who wanted to fight to the last man. By 1945, Japan was fighting basically for honor as they knew they could not stop the American advance. Americans did not want to risk it and decided to drop the bombs, and as an excuse they say that they wanted Japan to surrender so they would not need to continue island hopping and to invade japan, which of course will need more planning and manpower and of course deaths. That was their excuse. If after the bombs, the japanese did not surrender, they would go ahead with the invasion. We dont know for sure what would have happenned, so they just dropped the bombs and expected for a surrender, which came to true.
Depressing that trekkies rely on political dirt throwing tactics to make money.
Still, Starfleet has been shown to be, even at its worst, a highly ethical organisation.
I downvoted this video just for the sensationalist reporting.
#4 could be seen as saving the Federation from a known threat in favor of one that may not know of their existence yet- IMO more of a practical deal than an evil one. Of course Janeway should have expected the double cross- they are your mortal enemies after all...
She did. Why do you think they called the episode Scorpion?
To be fair, it was Chakotay who broke that deal first. The Borg then started taking things into their own hands. I have a feeling that if Janeway was not incapacitated that deal may have actually worked, and if it did it would be the first time anyone has ever made diplomatic relations with the Borg.
Archer's mission was to preserve the Earth at the time.
He couldn't perform that mission on impulse power.
I don't think he did anything that any other starfleet captains would have done.
regain his hugh-manity
Only to have it stripped in Picard.
@@chefdean7257 Nah, he died trying to save others.
That one went down like a lead zeppelin
Hey! Great Vid
But you forgot Star Trek Insurrection where Star-fleet Admiral kidnaps a community for their resources
6:05 The idea that you can commit genocide against the Borg is laughable. The Borg aren't a species. They're a FORCE.
Well you need to be able to differentiate between the collective and the individual drones. The Drones can still be saved, and really aren't responsible for their condition, is it at all right to kill them off unless there's absolutely no choice?
It's one of the truly tragic thing about the Borg, if a Federation ship and a Borg ship duke it out, it doesn't matter who wins because both ships are filled with innocent victims.
@@AeneasGemini There are no "individual drones". Except for that lot that broke off to go with Lore, and Hugh. Every drone is part of the collective unless acted upon by outside forces.
@@vsgfilmgroup Note that Picard didn't spend a moment considering a virus that would break the collective hold on the drones. It was kill them all or move on to the next episode.
Thank you for pointing out why every argument that “Picard and Discovery aren’t Trek because they’re too dark” is BS!
Discovery does not fit well into Star Trek.
Disconery is not in the tos voyager timeline.
it fits fine
@@snoopy_peanuts_77 No it doesnt.
Klingons are meant to be ugly, so whatever.
But klingons aren't meant to sound like shy mumblers with mouths full of oatmeal. And klingons don't let random alien trash wander their space or their homeworld unchallenged.
Most of the cases you have pointed out , are acts where Starfleet are in a war situation, then a few soley upon the actions of individuals.
As for the situation with Genesis , Genesis WAS designed to terraform dead planets for colonisation. It was down to Khan and the Klingons attempting to lable it as a weapon or to use it as such. Spocks theorisation was just that, not an actual intention.
A very shaky video and a lot of shaky supposition
Genesis is tenuous at best but try the Voyager episode "Equinox" when the crew for the Starship Equinox find they can use a multidimensional alien race as fuel for their warp core , In T.O.S. episode "A taste of Armageddon" Captain Kirk threatens to use general order 24( the destruction of all major cities on a planet ) he never dose , but the fact the order exists in the first place .
A taste of Armageddon was actually the closest thing to an evil committed by Starfleet. An order to destroy all life on a planet as a threat to save some of his crew and command is pretty extreme. I'm not sure if it was ethical at all even for survival, but since he didn't have to do it the consequence was good.
They also forget when Archer actually did commit genocide...
Oh come on , in the wrong hands a pencil is a weapon of mass destruction .
What? John Wick is Starfleet???!
@@Walkbi oh great, now I have to watch the John Wick series again!
@@lhkraut or Orphan Black
Depends what you sign it with.
@@marccolten9801 I think you mean "with it" ;)
Missed the bit where star fleet were okay with the displacement of a people so they could use their planet to be young again.
Seth Aragon well that wasn’t really Starfleet. They were lied to.
Insurrection was an awful, awful movie.
Heather Westhaver the admiral was okay with the displacement of the baku due to the youthful properties of the metaphasic radiation. Star fleet were okay with it. It was only after the enterprise was attacked and the admiral had found out the cerna and the Baku were the same race did he have a change a heart. But had those two things not happened he would have gone along with everything.
No no. Both to you and the people who responded below. Why does Riker & the Enterprise have a battle with the Soyna to begin with? Do you remember where Riker was going? Do you remember why they had to stop him? Because the Soyna and the admiral knew, when Riker reached the Federation and told them what was really going on, the Federation would put a stop to it. This whole plan would only work if admiral Daughtry Hid this plan from Starfleet. He knew they wouldn't go along with it.
1. Stealing a warp coil to prevent the destruction of earth, isn't evil, at the most it's morally questionable.
2. The genesis device wasn't a weapon of mass destruction, as it wasn't designed to be a weapon, unlike say a nuclear bomb which was designed with one purpose.
3. Threatening to destroy the Klingon home world, before they destroy yours, is another morally questionable action but not necessarily evil.
4. The founders had no problem committing genocide(see. The blight or the near annihilation of the cardassians), so not exactly going to shed a tear for a race of racist puddles, especially with over 900bln dead.
You forgot the fact that created the Maquis... They handed colonies populated by federation citizens to the Cardassians. Including one populated by Native American tribes who were forcefully relocated!
There a misconception in tng episode they were told that by staying they were stating they were no longer federation citizens by law and they agreed. The federation never abandon them. There were cardassians on the federation side that had the same thing happen. The difference was central command was breaking the treaty by sending weapons in to the demilitarized zone to destabilize it.
@@Shadothecat They agreed because they didn't want to leave their homes. Later, the Cardassians started abusing their power and igniting confrontations with them. We are never shown the Cardassians on the federation side tho, i wonder how many they were and how they were handling it. For all we know, the Federation could have been given unpopulated planets (maybe rich with resources).
Still a very bad treaty nontheless.
@Thelondonbadger So basically your idea of a "good treaty" is sending your own people to die like unofficial cannon fodder? Woha, guess the federation has truly always been evil...
@Thelondonbadger Ultimately, i agree with you. Nonetheless, this still undermines the idyllic image of the federation most Trekkies (and Picard, apparently) want maintained.
@Thelondonbadger Uh... you think Dukat is a true hero? Speak of countering a delusion with another (worse) lol.
For what it is worth, a lot of this evil came after Gene Roddenberry was gone. He would Never Ever have agreed to a Section 31 in his universe.
Gene roddenberry only like that everyone else was bad guys and his federation were saints.
@@Shadothecat You have your opinion of course. I most strongly do not agree with it. Roddenberry wanted to show that humanity could grow to a more evolved species. That there was hope for humanity. They were never saints. They did bad things all too often. Even still they aspired to a higher ideal and tried to make that ideal a reality.
@@michaeldominic3183 I completely agree with you. For me, Star Trek has always been about optimism for the future. Everything has a bad side and in principle, I think Section 31 is good to add to the story as it makes it more real - you can't manage threats without someone really underhanded doing it. However, this Dystopian turn that STD and STP have taken is not Star Trek and I don't agree with it. To me - it's not Canon and that can never change.
@@ScorpiusZA. Totally agree on the crap CBS is putting out there. Some people seem to think one can take a franchise and completely ignore the 'rules' of that franchises reality and just throw it out the door. You can't. There is an underlying foundation that a franchise has that has to remain and as long as you keep that in place you can expand on top of it. Removing the underlying foundation of what makes a property destroys the property. This latter is what STD and Picard have done and they are no longer Star Trek.
There is the episode in which Starfleet is okay with a mob syndicate running a planet. The episode with the Tribbles leads to a Tribble genocide by the Klingons. There is the episode where Starfleet allows a neo-Nazi government to remain in place caused by a Starfleet historian.
3:11 - you didn't mention that archer left the other ship with 3 years worth of supplies when he took the warp drive.
It still doesnt make it a good thing, but it was very nice of him, technically he did a forced trade, see pirates take without giving and archer gave back when he too the warp drive, so their not pirates.
There is a BIG difference in the "evil acts" of TNG, DS9 or VOY and the one of Picard & STD. The first ones where always actions of last resort, actions of a characters brought to their breaking point (e.g. DS9 (Romulans, Marqui) or VOY (Borg & 8742) or of rouge elements, or were prevented by the principles of Starfleet (e.g. Datas Process). And if it happens the involved people have to deal with the consequences (morally and from a story point) . In Picard & STD, this is not the case and this is also why most people see the "evil actions" in the new series as a break of Star Treks core principle.
Except that that argument is completely incorrect, and can be completely undone by the fact that Section 31 existed LONG before TOS, having been created in a time when there wasn’t anything pushing anyone to any breaking point.
Contrawise: Section 31 just underlines my thesis. Let me explain why:
They were always clearly shown as the bad guys. The heroes always have to fight them to rescue what the Federation stands for. Sometimes even if this means to choose the lesser evil (breaking point).
If you want to see the basic principle Star Trek is based on you can watch Admiral Ramirez Speech from Axxanar. Even if it's a Fan-Film this speech sums up the core idea of Star Trek for me ("The greatest Challenge is to do what must be done, without undoing the dream of the Federation").
While the new series (STD, Picard) managed the first part, they completely ignored the second one…
Well, what color would you prefer these elements to be since you hate rouge so much?
In the Pale Moonlight is the best episode of Star Trek.
I notice this guy has distinctly Tal Shiary ears.
It takes being kicked out of Starfleet for being 1/4 Romulan to see the Federation clearly.
Starfleet admirals being immoral assholes is such a common thing in "old" Trek that it's become a meme.
One truism that dates back to the original series is as soon as you got that nice broad Commodore's braid on your uniform sleeve, your brain turned to tapioca or something. Probably the only Commodore I ever felt any respect or sympathy for was Matt Decker, 'cause he pretty much went thru his own personal private Hell on the way to offing himself.
@solistus (OP)
Hell, it was a meme in-house too, with it being "something in the water at Federation HQ"
After the Xindi attack on Earth killed 7 million, it altered the timeline, making Starfleet more ruthless.
"Here is an example of one Starfleet officer doing bad things, therefore the whole organization is evil."
Are you done?
Know your trek! Most of these cases were orders from the upper echelons of Starfleet, specially the genocidal ones and the original plan of In a Pale Moonlight was a direct violation of the prime directive
@@federicomarintuc I do know my Star Trek. Individuals or small groups do not make whole organizations evil.
@@claytonhusted that's what the catholic church said
@@federicomarintuc let's take a universally good organization and one member commits murder, they must all be evil according to you.
Garak never lied about his profession, it was always the truth, *especially* when he lied
Why tell the truth when a lie will do?
Archer had to take that coil to save his planet, not evil
Still an immoral deciscion on his part. Though off screen he probably arranged a rescue for them.
@@victorm56 He gave them enough supplies to make it home.
Agree... Also, the federation wasn't founded yet.
Let's be real, during the Diminion War, if there were planets that held only Dominion shipyards and white facilities, starfleet would've been firing those things off left and right!
What about the TNG episode Journey's End where Federation gave away a planet that was home to a colony of American Indians to the Cardassian Union and ordered Picard forcibly remove them from the planet relocate them against their will.
Presentation bias.
The colonists identified as historical underdog minority group = not relevant.
Picard had a personal ancestor who exploited this minority group = not relevant (although strangely coincidental).
What if these people were stubborn brits or proud scots or mysterious arabs or fierce samurai instead? What if they were dumb pakleds or immovable vulcans instead? The Cardassians wouldn't change, Starfleet's orders wouldn't change, only the story would change.
Compare vs Picard's solutions when he got the same colony evacuation orders because of Romulan, Sheliak, and Borg threats.
That was fucked up.
@@pwnmeisterage being a "historically underdog minority group" is relevant. Power relations and historical imbalances have value when making a political decision.
Those people had colonized that planet after their people had been deprived of their ancestral homes, reduced to reserves, abused and depowered for centuries. Then those champions of freedom and justice at the federation handed their new home to the fucking Cardassians!
@@VuotoPneumaNN 1) the orders were from Starfleet, not Earth. Vulcans would not care about pre-WW III Earth events where everything had been leveled by thermonuclear war. 2) they were not native to the planet that had been in disputed space from before the Fed-Card War started, 3) they were told, before settling, the world might not be in Fed space and evacuation might be necessary. So being a "historically underdog minority group" is irrelevant, though I am glad you agree that unapproved Israeli settlements in the West Bank should never be evacuated. After all, there in no group more a "historically underdog minority group" than the jews.
@@johnweatherman5685 All I'm getting from this is you are a bit racist. Israeli settlements in the west Bank are already inhabited. That planet was not.
That makes on hell of a difference.
4. Initially, they were thinking of Species 8472 as an ally. However, after Kes has telepathic contact with them, she tells Janeway that ”it’s not the Borg we should be worried about, it's them.”
Except later, when they met again, the 8472s proved they had no ill intentions against our universe.
This seems to come up sometimes 'x has always been y'.
1. It's not necessarily about being dark, it's about being inauthentic. We don't buy the darkness in Picard. It just seems childish and shallow. Compare to that episode of Sisko everyone always rave about.
2. 'Lol, let's take a bright thing and turn it dark' is the most trite thing ever. 'But what if superman was... evil?'. It's like the only thing writers are capable of thinking off when handling a character or faction who's genuinely decent.
3. Quality still matters. You can be dark and high quality, and dark and low quality. This goes for all 'y' by the way.
4. There's this... tone that exists in a lot of television nowadays. It's best exemplified by this voice people sometime puts on when they're trying to sound dramatic and solemn, except they do it by putting on a slow drawl. Usually it's followed by some attempts at an 'insightful' turn of phrase like I dunno: 'All life... is born from chaos'. The problem is the voice doesn't sound solemn at all, it just sounds dumb. And the insightful phrases aren't insightful, they're nonsense some writer thought sounded cool. Yeah, modern star trek is this tone. There's more true gravitas in five minutes of old school star trek than in entire seasons of the new stuff.
So true. In this modern era where writers seem to have little imagination, they don't want actual heroes, they want protagonists that are "realistic". They define "realistic" by not being completely good, but having them be both good and evil. I guess they don't know any good people in real life. Pity.
@@tnspnk3 I've discussed many times with my wife that the overall tone of shows these days is basically everyone is an asshole.
In one episode of Voyager, Voyager destroys an anti-Borg trap that a civilization put out to protect itself from the Borg. Voyager left a whole civilization to get assimilated just because it could kill one crew member on Voyager.
Poisoning space. In Star Trek The New Generation, it is found out that flying at warp speed degrades space to the point that people flying in degraded space with a space ship could have the space ship blow up. All this time, there could already be "cracks" in space due to the constant warping between key lines of travel to the point that Star Fleet must have known about it.
Kirk's threat to nuke two planets that didn't have warp capability because he didn't like the way the two planets were fighting. Basically each plant was using disintegration chambers on their planets and when one planet "tagged" the other planet, the tagged planet sent some people to the disintegration chamber.
Picard siding with a genocidal space creature. Picard has fired on space creatures before, but when a scientist kills a space creature that ate her home planet, he arrests her saying that isn't the Starfleet way.
In Kirk's defense, one of those planets was forcibly trying to shove Kirk, his crew, and a high ranking Federation diplomat into a disintegration chamber because the war computer calculated the Enterprise as destroyed. After watching that episode, I have to say that those aliens kinda deserved whatever they got (be it Kirk nuking them or the other planet nuking them for breaking the rules).
"Before there was DOO-KOT..." !?!? (4.40)
... genuine Trek fan, clearly :/
* & many other genuinely annoying errors ; why do Trek vids if you don't give a funk, lads !?
Yeah I didn't get when he said that.
Did he mean before him as a bad guy?
@@WarpstormChronicles The people doing TrekCulture like Star Trek the same way J.J. Abrams does. That is to say, they don't really know much about it.
10: starfleet had no intentions to use genesis as a weapon, it was stolen by a bad guy and he used it as a weapon
9: yeah i dont have an excuse for this one that was pretty shitty
8: this is discovery i dont watch this one
7: wellllll, they never said whether or not sisko really killed anyone, was more of a threat and pretty sure he was bluffing.....well after the first planet anyway
6: hey hey there was just "talk" of genocide it never actually happened.....who else has said stuff they didnt follow through with? no big deal
5: you cant blame starfleet for this, they didnt order him to start a nazi regime, he acted alone
4: hmmmmm they turned out to be worse than the borg so screw em....since voyager is alone kinda hard to put this on starfleet too
3: ok maybe this was a bit harsh but this is war, man....the founders are out to bring everyone under their rule so i say the gloves come off on them
2: yes not cool this one, but democracy and the court of law prevailed
1: this is an ends justify the means problem but if sisko had not done this the dominion would have destroyed the federation, and then it would be too late the dominion would have destroyed the romulans and took over the whole quadrant
Kristopher Tower
How do you know that Starfleet did not intend to use Genesis as a weapon...?
Were you a member of this fictitious organization and were made privy to all of
their intentions...?
You must of had a top secret clearance to know this kind of stuff...
@@troystutsman1400 well they never used it as a weapon for starters, and thinking that they would is the most absurd thing i ever heard...not even romulans would do something so shitty
you missed one....
what about the fact that Star Fleet actually has and uses an entire race of slaves.... as in the holographic doctor from Voyager ... they dont delete the EMH mk1 Ohh no... they send them to the dilithium mines.
So, would you say that Editor, Word, or Bonzi Buddy are an race of programs? Because the EMH mk1 is just that, a set of instructions. Just like Data before the Measure of Man was just Starfleet Property, built by an engineer and its brain fed neural instructions by a cyberneticist. When is a single thing, a curiosity, a being?
You forgot willing to allow an entire world to DIE, rather than 'interfere with their natural development'. Episode "Homeward".
Vic Montoga of ST Continues: The Prime Directive ONLY works on PAPER.
This video conflates Starfleet with The United Federation of Planets. Some of the decisions, like the development of the Genesis Device, were made by the Federation with the details only revealed to the highest echelon of Starfleet. A real-world equivalent would be blaming the U.S. Navy for the concentration of Japanese-Americans during WWII - that decision was made by the government, not the military. Others were snap decisions were made by individuals at critical moments, rather than Starfleet Command making a deliberate choice.
What I see when I watch Star Trek: Picard is the unfortunate response to a devastating war that struck the heart of the Federation: Earth. As General Martok pointed out, not even his own people had the audacity to attack Earth directly (this was pre-ST:Dis), and the destruction had a profound effect on Starfleet, the Federation, and the general populous. 'Never Again' would have become a watch-word, or buzz-phrase, and even after the war Starfleet wouldn't completely step back from their military role as the defenders of the Federation. Unfortunately, this would have an effect on who was promoted to which position, allowing for more people of . . . flexible morality . . . to reach the higher levels of Starfleet, and even the Federation as a whole, finally culminating in the situation that Picard finds himself in.
Also some of these weren't Starfleet, but the actions of rogue officers. Kind of like saying if one banker steals money then the whole bank is evil.
@@nunnayorz5836 But they also punish people who go rouge VERY mild. I mean the captain who destroys several Cardassian ships during peace-time - did he got arrested at once? No, he was treated like a gentleman. I mean could you imagine how loud the cries would be about a Klingon or Romulan captain who in times of peace kill their people? Bringim him down and destroying his ship would be "hero-material" I guess.
@@marcbartuschka6372 i never liked rouge agents. They're too overpowdered.
@@pwnmeisterage That may very well be. On the other hand, come one. We see ONE ship saving entire planets and sometimes even the Federation if not the galaxy time and time again. So I would say "being overpowered" is something that happened a lot in Star Trek/Star Fleet. Not just to its "rotten" members...
Love this! I disagree with #4: Making a deal with the Borg to destroy an unknown species. Species 8472, did not only want to destroy the Borg, they wanted to destroy everyone and everything. Kes mentioned it in Scorpion, part I. What are your thoughts?
"New trek is too dark and evil"
Berman Era: Hold my beer.
WOW!
Thankfully these things are individual people's fault!
But those people work for Star fleet so they drag it's reputation through the mud!
Sooooo ... has everyone just forgotten about that time Starfleet and the Federation assassinated the Klingon Chancellor? Literally shot him dead.
@Leo Peridot And it wasn't really Starfleet as an organization either, but Rogue Starfleet members (Maybe Section 31 off script, behind the scenes)?
@Leo Peridot rouge groups exit in the United states where they bombed and kill people including presidents before. At that point they arent American citizens anymore
Either Starfleet is destoryed and Earth is captured or Q'onos is destoryed?
Welp, time for the Klingons to pack their bags. They started the war and I'd finish it. In a heartbeat. Same goes for the Dominion.
As a WW2 buff, I still need to kick my ass into watching the Nazi episode. I mean, classic WW2 German uniforms, Nazis salutes and Swastikas on full display? Man, things used to be better back in the days. Nowadays, nothing other than a documentary or WW2 based movie could be able to do things like that without getting banned everywhere. Also, I say this not because I support the Nazis or whatever asinine conclusion that could be drawn from my words but because movies or TV shows should be allowed to use or do whatever they like in their stories. The Nazis were horrible but displaying their attire and using their gestures is protected under the 1st amendment.
Also Spock in a M42 Stalhelm is hilarious looking.
Archer could have attempted one other deal with the alien captain, though its a real long shot. Ask him to transfer his crew onto Enterprise. The captain does say "anything else" but... Yeah, it would be really dangerous for them, and be asking another species to essentially join the war with the Xindi.
At the very least Archer could have promised to return later (if they survive) with the Warp Coil and additional compensation. Would probably have still been a no, but at least he'd be attempting another option or two.
Or heck, just ask the captain to carry Archer and his senior staff in their vessel so they can make the rendezvous on time. Then the allied Xindi could go and pick up Enterprise with the Subspace Rifts.
I would say 'Siege of AR-558' summarizes Starfleet's intentions thoughout ST's history quite accurately, more specifically the conversation between Quark and Nog.
Sorry quark was only thinking of himself
@@Shadothecat Go meta-text.
Hey! The genesis device was still not intended to be a weapon, so it cannot be included :P
You forgot the attempted forced relocation of the Baku in Star Trek insurrection
no ones mentioned Tuvix...
Andy Brooks with good reason. We don’t speak of it.
Elements of Starfleet also tried to overthrow the elected government of the Federation. TWICE.
@Leo Peridot I don't think they are. I just started the New Frotier series and enjoying it immensely. Any good evil Starfleet moments in there that you know of? No hardcore spoilers please, just a simple yes or no. On book 5 "Martyr."
? The problem isn’t starfleet being evil, the problem is the federation not being a utopia, apparently greed, and envy still exist along with drugs and alcoholism.
Theres a solution to that, invented by one Ioseph Dshugashvili. If the system doesnt work because people are wronk kind, remove the people.
Or turn them into borg, whatever.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 You know, aside from the completely dehumanizing by-product of the Borg Collective, it actually is, in all other respects, a perfect society.
There is no drug abuse, no crime, no unemployment, etc. Everyone has an equal education, everyone has health care, everyone is equal under the law, there is no discrimination, no war...
Paradise. As long as you're okay with with having no freedom, no thoughts of your own, and no say in determining the entire course of your life.
@@arekpetrosian4965 What you just drscribed, was, sans education and healthcare a graveyard. I can accept the premise of a graveyard being perfect from the viewpoint of society, but its not a paradise. A paradise cannot be described by lack of something, it needs to be described by what it has.
May I also remind that Viking Paradise, the Valhalla, has daily alcohol abuse, rampant violent crime, and constant war every single day where pretty much everyone dies a bloody horrible death. Healthcare is flawless though since everyone is resurrected for a feast.
Loss of personal freedom is, to a human, suffering, though the american version is just whining.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 Sometimes I hate the internet. Things get lost in the communication attempt. I was making a joke, calling it a "paradise"; I should have been more obvious, or put a smiley face, or something. My bad. LOL
@@arekpetrosian4965 Yes the parentheses make your idea instantly much more understandable. The borg do indeed possess many signs of an ideal society, and, I wouldnt mind living in virtual reality better than holodeck. The borg are also incredibly egalitarian. But its still a purely athenian democracy, a pure and complete tyranny of the masses where you have no other value than what society assigns you, making you disposable like a paper cup. Having no friends, since in a hivemind friends are all same as others. Being addicted to the constant buzz of the unity, but also being completely, utterly alone.
.... bit like self-isolation and internet addiction... :-/
From my point of view, Starfleet is evil! I’m pretty sure that banning synths, which resulted in Riker and Troi’s son dying, and Rios getting traumatized by his boss committing suicide after following Commodore Oh’s blackmail (either commit double murder on innocent synths, or your ship gets reduced to space junk) was evil. And allowing the Romulans to die in a supernova, which orphaned Elnor, Narek and Narissa, and set back Federation-Romulan relationships back a century was rather evil.
That's all from something that recycled the name Star Trek but has nothing to due with what Gene Roddenberry created. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that new trek is evil.
John Weatherman Picard is a great series! It’s a worthy sequel that makes us think twice about the Federation and its utopian society, it wraps up the loose threads of the TNG era, and does more than pander.
Human, they're humans. (Or sentient beings. That inherently means being flawed. Perfection doesn't exist, and imo it's rather a good thing, as I happen to think it would be pretty boring otherwise)
There wasn't any doubt that the man on the 1. place would be a the most badass and nuanced captain involved in a galactic war. That is one of the most insightful, deep and dark war story in SciFi.
I am sure Archer and Starfleet arranged for someone to find that ship and get them home in a timely manner. Should be easier after that part of space is being torn a new one and they have friends that live in the area.