This new series is about discovering the ins and outs of shotgun shell reloading, It is as if we are two guys going down a hallway and opening doors just to find "What's in here". The MEC, the shotshell hulls, the wads, the payloads, the load data. and the application of it all. I'm really enjoying this content over coffee in the morning, keep up the good content - Dave
I feel like an expert with loading rifle cartridges but a dumb dumb with shotshell. Thanks for guiding us and more regular uploads for something to fall asleep to 😂
I would definitely look at a new barrel for the 1300. I think the price for the work vs new barrel will be similar. Having both long and short will allow you to experiment. Hopefully whoever makes the new barrel will have the specs on how it was chambered so you can know what you are buying. I have a c.1944 M48 12ga Topper. I never considered looking at the chamber in it. I'll have to compare it to something newer. Though most of my shotguns are inherited and quite old. Certainly per-1990s Thanks for the interesting videos
The full choke is probably not a good candidate for the tungsten shot. The rule of thumb I learned when getting into shotshell reloading, when using steel shot use a choke 2 sizes larger than you would for lead. I would think that would apply for tungsten also.
i remember larry kelly was testing guns with magna port when i was a kid . magna port was still a long way off then . he would be at the range on , was it 21 or 22 mile rd . getting old lol . everybody told me ' stay away from that crazy guy , he drills holes in gun barrels ! going to blow himself up one day ! ' i liked larry nice guy . he even got me a bottle of coke one day at the range . i grew up at 10 and mound . yrs later i went to magnaport to have my new rem 700 bdl magna ported . they where still a small company then and larry was in the office . i told him who i was , didn't think he remembered me . he did ! did my 700 for free ! said ' you were one of a couple people at the range that didn't think i was crazy ! ' is the range even still there now ?
Watch out. Forget about the forcing cone issue, half an inch is plenty. The real concern is the Full Choke on the 410. 410 bores will have naturally thick barrels but a full choke running tungsten will see over-pressure, not to mention the deformation of shot resulting in pretty poor patterns. I would open it up to IC or a Light Modified max.
@@davidpippin1845 Understood but you´re not going to go out hunting anything larger than a pheasant with anything smaller than 6 shot and they would be preserve birds not wild where 5 or even 4 shot are required. Granted you would not be using a 410 for that. With firearms it is best to assume worst case scenarios and tungsten demands respect.
I had Briley lengthen the forcing cones on an old Winchester 42 sXS because it kicked like a mule. It did help the recoil somewhat. It is an old gun that is relatively low value, but I like it so it was worth it to me. I did not notice any change in the pattern, but I was just using it for lead shot. But, in your case with the 410 having a full choke you might have to get it opened as well. You better ask the gunsmith about the choke.
I haven't worried about the forcing cone in shotguns, so it'll be interesting to follow this. I do know that back in the 80's (maybe 70's), the gun gurus did a lot of experimentation with the chokes of the 410. Long story short, the only two chokes that affected pattern density consistently and reliably were open and full. Yes, the modified choke changes things, but there was more differences between one gun and another than there was with modified chokes in the 410. Another little quirk of this bore. Point being, you might want to see how everything works before changing the choke of the 410 as one commenter suggested. I'm thinking that the tungsten shot cups will handle the full choke without any issues in the 410. I'm also guessing that the 12 won't like tungsten through a full choke. I'm visualizing issues with anything tighter than modified when using tungsten. Good luck 👍.
Wow, this is interesting stuff I've heard nothing about in 50 years shooting....not much with a shotgun, but still would think I'd run into a book somewhere...? In any case, I'll watch ANY video you make because you're incredibly interesting.
I know a gunsmith….. lol. Enjoying this content. I lengthened mine myself but I’m the long, tapered cone type. Shouldn’t be a problem finding someone, just ask a local trap/skeet shooter
Using sulfur to measure your chamber is the way my grandad did it (& also cheaper). I would avoid breathing it in, but it works well, and it breaks easy. The latter is a pain if you have a good result, but a delight when it gets stuck. I really love this series. Thanks!
Myself. I've been replacing, my guns because of rust. I live in AZ ,and used to use a swamp cooler. Surface rust can equal internal rust. I'm shopping for a new 12 guage pump for hunting. You could help by choosing one for you. Love your content.
Brings back a lot of memories watching this, it is definitely a learning curve in adjusting everything. The powder/shot charge weights were the most difficult for me to adjust and get consistent. Universal charge bars are definitely the way to go on that.
I've shot shot guns for years, and I just now learned more about forcing cones then I have over 15 years, in 15 minutes. I do think you need a good gunsmith in your life.
I watch your videos even if I don't own the particular firearm or cartridge. With that being said.... would love some more videos with the AR10 308 and 6.5 CM as well as 6 ARC videos. Everyone is afraid to try new powders in AR platforms but I feel like you are just the guy to do it and not blow your face off.
interesting on the forcing cones . makes since . i got a old topper 410 myself don't know how old it is . got it dirt cheap at a pawn shop had a lot of fine surface rust on it but nice bore . i duracoated it looks like new now . i started loading 410 a couple of yrs ago but do them the hard way , no press . the loads all work but the crimps do not look nice lol ! i started making brass 410 shells from 303 british cases . not hard to do . even ordered a box of the brass cases . use a 308 seater die to put a ' crimp on the cases then cover them in glue . they work good only the ones made from 303 cases look funny , smaller at the base then the case mouth . keep up the great work shannan !
Got a Winchester model 1300 myself. Love it,found all the winchoke tunes too. With the long feeding tounge we can shoot the shorty shells without an adapter. Enjoying this shotgunning series. Merry Christmas and Semper Fi
I know you're in KY but not exactly sure where, BUT there is a great gun smith at a place called Ops Supply in Simpsonville just south of Louisville. Also another that did an incredible refurbish on my grandfathers 336 Marlin in Newport, east of Covington called Schlosser Gunsmithing Co.
I have a Winchester 1300 Defender with a 18" barrel. I got it around 2008 I think. Didn't know about the forcing cone. I've been loading flechettes in it and haven't got very good velocity yet. I'll look at the forcing cone so thanks! Saved me some time lol
I did not know about the forcing cones either... Johnny taught me something again... That's why I subscribe. I heard somewhere that you should not shoot steel shot thru a full chock .. checked a few forums on it and it appears to be contingent on shot size... Tungsten being heavier and harder I would read up all I could on that b4 sending it down a barrel.
@@DadWil I heard about wax slugs from Kentucky Ballistics. I'm going to try it with flechetts instead of lead shot. I've had a real problem keeping the pattern tight beyond 10 yards.
I don’t think he will see much difference in pattern quality. The only real difference will be that his bill fold will be easier to close after the gunsmith takes the 100$ bills.
The other concern I would have with your shotguns would be the chokes. Typically fixed chokes are not recommended for steel (and I would presume tungsten). In addition to full choke being probably too tight for a non compressible shot, fixed chokes generally compression to length ratio that steel chokes. If you ever measure a steel choke marked "steel full", you'll find it is typically an IM choke, not a F choke.
I have a lot of bismuth for my h&rs, but plenty of folks I know use steel or tungsten. It’s definitely an interesting topic, and I love the thinking, but I’d have no problem shooting steel in mod choke or less. For getting the work done, I’d recommend bob day of r&d custom gunsmithing if you don’t mind shipping. I’ve had him do some work for me and it was absolutely fantastic.
Your guns will definitely pattern better when you lengthen the forcing cones. I’ve had friends spend more money on modifying old Berettas than they originally cost to buy. Sometimes you can’t beat and old trusty gun.
Lengthening the forcing cone is more about patterning than anything else. Don't mess with it unless your patterns stink. Lengthening the forcing cone reduces the chaotic effects of the shot bouncing off each other pellet. It makes a bigger difference with larger shot and harder shot. Thus it was common to do this for guys pass shooting geese with large shot (#2 or larger). More important is (as others said) the fixed chokes. Steel is bad on tight (full) chokes. Tungsten is much worse. Choke tubes with tighter constriction are marked not for steel use. If you don't protect the barrel from the shot, with the harder ones (steel and tungsten) eventually you will see gouges on the barrel interior. Again, worse with larger sized shot. I have seen a blown out ring right at the end of a barrel where the choke starts with steel shells and older barrels with fixed chokes (70's-80's manufacture.) Had to rebarrel an Ithaca Mag 10 due to this back when steel first came out.
Man this makes me want to order a 410 conversion kit for my MEC sizemaster! I have an old H&R 410 very similar to yours only it has a fixed cylinder bore or maybe improved cylinder barrel mics out to .406. Me personally I would leave that .410 of yours exactly how it is and just shoot game loads/regular lead shot thru it and look into a Stevens 301 with screw in chokes. I'm not sure if tungsten is the same as steel in that aspect and is not safe to shoot thru a full choke? Just something to think about. I've never messed with tungsten but seriously been looking into it to work up a good long range turkey load for my 870 express super mag 12 gauge. That stuff is just so blame expensive compared to lead shot though. That's the only thing keeping me from jumping on it lol!
It would seem to me that you would want to start with a barrel rated for steel that will handle the pressure. I think longer forcing cones help a lot with recoil and control ability as in point ability. Take the old guns to the range and shot some games with them and have fun but don’t try to make do something there not designed to do. Love the Channel.
Eventually you have to let go of the outdated antique stuff unless you can live with inferior performance. Plus reaming a forcing cone will probably cost near as much as the new $150 gun.
What are you talking about time wise that the tungsten would do damage without adding length to the forcing cone? Immediately or over 10 years? I guess it would also depend on the number of rounds shot through the barrel. If you were planning on shooting only tungsten shot and no other than I could see getting the cone lengthened I guess. Not trying to troll here and if it seems that way I apologize.... just curious. Thanks for the series!!!
Just use the old guns for non tungsten and get something new for tungsten, just because you get a new gun doesnt mean you have to retire everything that came before it... im really confused on the thought processes there.
This new series is about discovering the ins and outs of shotgun shell reloading, It is as if we are two guys going down a hallway and opening doors just to find "What's in here". The MEC, the shotshell hulls, the wads, the payloads, the load data. and the application of it all. I'm really enjoying this content over coffee in the morning, keep up the good content - Dave
Just getting cough up on all this
This series is great. I know absolutely nothing about shot shells or reloading them, but now I know I need a lot of money for new guns and equipment 👍
Lol
I feel like an expert with loading rifle cartridges but a dumb dumb with shotshell. Thanks for guiding us and more regular uploads for something to fall asleep to 😂
I would definitely look at a new barrel for the 1300. I think the price for the work vs new barrel will be similar. Having both long and short will allow you to experiment. Hopefully whoever makes the new barrel will have the specs on how it was chambered so you can know what you are buying.
I have a c.1944 M48 12ga Topper. I never considered looking at the chamber in it. I'll have to compare it to something newer. Though most of my shotguns are inherited and quite old. Certainly per-1990s
Thanks for the interesting videos
great series. i am enjoying the 'exploration' of shotguns
The full choke is probably not a good candidate for the tungsten shot. The rule of thumb I learned when getting into shotshell reloading, when using steel shot use a choke 2 sizes larger than you would for lead. I would think that would apply for tungsten also.
Many years back I sent two shotguns to Magna Port, here in Macomb County, and had the forcing cones reamed. Yes it does help and make a difference.
i remember larry kelly was testing guns with magna port when i was a kid . magna port was still a long way off then . he would be at the range on , was it 21 or 22 mile rd . getting old lol . everybody told me ' stay away from that crazy guy , he drills holes in gun barrels ! going to blow himself up one day ! ' i liked larry nice guy . he even got me a bottle of coke one day at the range . i grew up at 10 and mound . yrs later i went to magnaport to have my new rem 700 bdl magna ported . they where still a small company then and larry was in the office . i told him who i was , didn't think he remembered me . he did ! did my 700 for free ! said ' you were one of a couple people at the range that didn't think i was crazy ! ' is the range even still there now ?
My Grandpa had the barrel of his model 37 16ga worked over for steel shot. They lengthened the forcing cone and opened up the choke. It shoots great.
A gunsmith should charge around $100 per barrel to lengthen the forcing cones. Some smiths are price dependent on whether the bore is plated or not.
Watch out. Forget about the forcing cone issue, half an inch is plenty. The real concern is the Full Choke on the 410. 410 bores will have naturally thick barrels but a full choke running tungsten will see over-pressure, not to mention the deformation of shot resulting in pretty poor patterns. I would open it up to IC or a Light Modified max.
Agreed, you never shoot steel through a full choke.
Small size (7-10 ) tungsten is shot through tight turkey chokes all the time. But they are screw in chokes made for it.
@@davidpippin1845 Understood but you´re not going to go out hunting anything larger than a pheasant with anything smaller than 6 shot and they would be preserve birds not wild where 5 or even 4 shot are required. Granted you would not be using a 410 for that. With firearms it is best to assume worst case scenarios and tungsten demands respect.
@@davidpippin1845 check the inside diameter of that "tight" choke.
.665 rem choke
I am enjoying the shotshell content and learning from your experience. Thanks, JRB.
I always send my new shotguns to Ahlmans gunshop in Minnesota to have the cone optimized !
I had Briley lengthen the forcing cones on an old Winchester 42 sXS because it kicked like a mule. It did help the recoil somewhat. It is an old gun that is relatively low value, but I like it so it was worth it to me. I did not notice any change in the pattern, but I was just using it for lead shot. But, in your case with the 410 having a full choke you might have to get it opened as well. You better ask the gunsmith about the choke.
The tungsten shot does well with IC and cylinder in 410
I haven't worried about the forcing cone in shotguns, so it'll be interesting to follow this. I do know that back in the 80's (maybe 70's), the gun gurus did a lot of experimentation with the chokes of the 410. Long story short, the only two chokes that affected pattern density consistently and reliably were open and full. Yes, the modified choke changes things, but there was more differences between one gun and another than there was with modified chokes in the 410. Another little quirk of this bore.
Point being, you might want to see how everything works before changing the choke of the 410 as one commenter suggested. I'm thinking that the tungsten shot cups will handle the full choke without any issues in the 410. I'm also guessing that the 12 won't like tungsten through a full choke. I'm visualizing issues with anything tighter than modified when using tungsten. Good luck 👍.
I have shot factory .410 TSS in a 60 year old shotgun like yours. I didn't blow my face off, but I guess I could have been close without realizing it.
Excellent information video. Great work.
Wow, this is interesting stuff I've heard nothing about in 50 years shooting....not much with a shotgun, but still would think I'd run into a book somewhere...? In any case, I'll watch ANY video you make because you're incredibly interesting.
Elwhatstrummer - there’s been scores of books published covering shotgun performance, bore profiles etc.
You give some really good info even as you're learning. Much appreciated.
I have some guns that mean so much to me, I could never change parts on them. I understand taking them in even though the cost might be higher.
I know a gunsmith….. lol. Enjoying this content. I lengthened mine myself but I’m the long, tapered cone type. Shouldn’t be a problem finding someone, just ask a local trap/skeet shooter
Thanks for the links. Good stuff man👍
Won’t the tungsten shot tear up the choke on an older ‘full choke’ barrel?
Using sulfur to measure your chamber is the way my grandad did it (& also cheaper). I would avoid breathing it in, but it works well, and it breaks easy. The latter is a pain if you have a good result, but a delight when it gets stuck. I really love this series. Thanks!
Vang Comp System on either of these would be sweet
Myself. I've been replacing, my guns because of rust. I live in AZ ,and used to use a swamp cooler. Surface rust can equal internal rust. I'm shopping for a new 12 guage pump for hunting. You could help by choosing one for you.
Love your content.
I sent my 1965 vintage Remington 1100 magnum barrel to Rose Action Sports in Pembroke, KY for forcing cone work and screw in choke conversion.
Brings back a lot of memories watching this, it is definitely a learning curve in adjusting everything. The powder/shot charge weights were the most difficult for me to adjust and get consistent. Universal charge bars are definitely the way to go on that.
Keep us updated with your findings.
Thanks
I've shot shot guns for years, and I just now learned more about forcing cones then I have over 15 years, in 15 minutes.
I do think you need a good gunsmith in your life.
Thank you for another great video
Loving this series!
Absolutely cut the forcing cones lowers the pressure and reduces recoil ,,, especially if you have a 2"&9/16"th. Chamber on older guns
I watch your videos even if I don't own the particular firearm or cartridge. With that being said.... would love some more videos with the AR10 308 and 6.5 CM as well as 6 ARC videos. Everyone is afraid to try new powders in AR platforms but I feel like you are just the guy to do it and not blow your face off.
I have that exact same gun, love it! The Winchester, that is.
Thanks, Shannon 😁
interesting on the forcing cones . makes since . i got a old topper 410 myself don't know how old it is . got it dirt cheap at a pawn shop had a lot of fine surface rust on it but nice bore . i duracoated it looks like new now . i started loading 410 a couple of yrs ago but do them the hard way , no press . the loads all work but the crimps do not look nice lol ! i started making brass 410 shells from 303 british cases . not hard to do . even ordered a box of the brass cases . use a 308 seater die to put a ' crimp on the cases then cover them in glue . they work good only the ones made from 303 cases look funny , smaller at the base then the case mouth . keep up the great work shannan !
I've watched videos about making brass 410 hulls out of 444 Marlin brass... looks like it would be fun for low volume playing/hunting.
@@bobkmac be easier that from 303 brass .
Got a Winchester model 1300 myself. Love it,found all the winchoke tunes too.
With the long feeding tounge we can shoot the shorty shells without an adapter.
Enjoying this shotgunning series.
Merry Christmas and Semper Fi
Love this! Keep it up...
I know you're in KY but not exactly sure where, BUT there is a great gun smith at a place called Ops Supply in Simpsonville just south of Louisville. Also another that did an incredible refurbish on my grandfathers 336 Marlin in Newport, east of Covington called Schlosser Gunsmithing Co.
I have a Winchester 1300 Defender with a 18" barrel. I got it around 2008 I think. Didn't know about the forcing cone. I've been loading flechettes in it and haven't got very good velocity yet. I'll look at the forcing cone so thanks! Saved me some time lol
I did not know about the forcing cones either... Johnny taught me something again... That's why I subscribe.
I heard somewhere that you should not shoot steel shot thru a full chock .. checked a few forums on it and it appears to be contingent on shot size... Tungsten being heavier and harder I would read up all I could on that b4 sending it down a barrel.
@@DadWil I heard about wax slugs from Kentucky Ballistics. I'm going to try it with flechetts instead of lead shot. I've had a real problem keeping the pattern tight beyond 10 yards.
How about a before and after forcing cone lengthening pattern test.
I don’t think he will see much difference in pattern quality. The only real difference will be that his bill fold will be easier to close after the gunsmith takes the 100$ bills.
The other concern I would have with your shotguns would be the chokes. Typically fixed chokes are not recommended for steel (and I would presume tungsten). In addition to full choke being probably too tight for a non compressible shot, fixed chokes generally compression to length ratio that steel chokes.
If you ever measure a steel choke marked "steel full", you'll find it is typically an IM choke, not a F choke.
use bismuth shot, it acts a lot more like lead and is safe in older shotguns.
I have a lot of bismuth for my h&rs, but plenty of folks I know use steel or tungsten. It’s definitely an interesting topic, and I love the thinking, but I’d have no problem shooting steel in mod choke or less. For getting the work done, I’d recommend bob day of r&d custom gunsmithing if you don’t mind shipping. I’ve had him do some work for me and it was absolutely fantastic.
Interesting info.
Your guns will definitely pattern better when you lengthen the forcing cones. I’ve had friends spend more money on modifying old Berettas than they originally cost to buy. Sometimes you can’t beat and old trusty gun.
That Cerrosafe seems like it would be very good to use as a lapping tool for lapping a barrel. Hmm.........
Lengthening the forcing cone is more about patterning than anything else. Don't mess with it unless your patterns stink. Lengthening the forcing cone reduces the chaotic effects of the shot bouncing off each other pellet. It makes a bigger difference with larger shot and harder shot. Thus it was common to do this for guys pass shooting geese with large shot (#2 or larger).
More important is (as others said) the fixed chokes. Steel is bad on tight (full) chokes. Tungsten is much worse. Choke tubes with tighter constriction are marked not for steel use.
If you don't protect the barrel from the shot, with the harder ones (steel and tungsten) eventually you will see gouges on the barrel interior. Again, worse with larger sized shot.
I have seen a blown out ring right at the end of a barrel where the choke starts with steel shells and older barrels with fixed chokes (70's-80's manufacture.) Had to rebarrel an Ithaca Mag 10 due to this back when steel first came out.
Man this makes me want to order a 410 conversion kit for my MEC sizemaster! I have an old H&R 410 very similar to yours only it has a fixed cylinder bore or maybe improved cylinder barrel mics out to .406. Me personally I would leave that .410 of yours exactly how it is and just shoot game loads/regular lead shot thru it and look into a Stevens 301 with screw in chokes. I'm not sure if tungsten is the same as steel in that aspect and is not safe to shoot thru a full choke? Just something to think about. I've never messed with tungsten but seriously been looking into it to work up a good long range turkey load for my 870 express super mag 12 gauge. That stuff is just so blame expensive compared to lead shot though. That's the only thing keeping me from jumping on it lol!
You can rent reamers, easy job .
It would seem to me that you would want to start with a barrel rated for steel that will handle the pressure. I think longer forcing cones help a lot with recoil and control ability as in point ability. Take the old guns to the range and shot some games with them and have fun but don’t try to make do something there not designed to do. Love the Channel.
What about just buying a new barrel, especially for the 12 ga.
I can put you in touch with a good gunsmith in Ashland Ky
Might also try and find a cheap barrel for the 1300 and send it to Vang Comp
Eventually you have to let go of the outdated antique stuff unless you can live with inferior performance. Plus reaming a forcing cone will probably cost near as much as the new $150 gun.
Thinking keep these old guns for older lead shot or copper plated shot grab a newer shotgun for tss
So it's "ream the chamber & rent a reamer", "shotgun barrel swap on the 12ga", or worse case hello to a affordable mossberg?
What are you talking about time wise that the tungsten would do damage without adding length to the forcing cone? Immediately or over 10 years? I guess it would also depend on the number of rounds shot through the barrel. If you were planning on shooting only tungsten shot and no other than I could see getting the cone lengthened I guess. Not trying to troll here and if it seems that way I apologize.... just curious. Thanks for the series!!!
Might not want to shoot the tungsten through a full choke just like steel shot.
👍
Cheaper to just buy a new barrel
😃😬😀👍‼️
I think whenever buying a new gun is an option, you should buy a new gun
🤪🤪
Way over think this lo
Just use the old guns for non tungsten and get something new for tungsten, just because you get a new gun doesnt mean you have to retire everything that came before it... im really confused on the thought processes there.
You can clean that bore mop by boiling the cerrosafe out of it