How to Play an Arcane Trickster in D&D 5e
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
- This is my guide for building an effective Arcane Trickster. This build focuses on doing damage effectively in combat while giving you a few other tricks to keep the opponents on their toes.
I mention the Minor Illusion video I did, it can be found here: • Minor Illusion Guide f...
The Final Build can be viewed here: ddb.ac/characters/35355302/Z2...
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
2:35 Race
4:28 Level 1
8:39 Levels 2 and 3
15:20 Levels 4 and 5
17:54 Levels 6 and 7
20:25 Levels 8 and 9
25:10 Levels 10-13
31:43 Levels 14 and 15
33:32 Levels 16-20
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The “Rogue as a skill class” comes from the early days of dnd when most adventures revolved around dungeon crawling and a party needed a rogue to find and disarm traps, pick locks, and detect secret doors.
I think Rogues still need to be a skill class because they have the most high stakes job, and they have to be very good at it to keep doing it. That being said you could also just be a sneaky Bard.
still play them the same way, still works fine lol
"Stabby McStabberson?"
"Yes?"
"You wouldn't happen to be a rogue with a name like that?"
*Laughs* "No I get that all of the time!" *stabs the guard*
"Wizard, actually. Sorry, it's a common misconception." *stabs them anyway*
Aren't Fighters just as good at stabbing?
@@Nubbletech Fighters are good at stabs, Rogues are good at Stab.
@@andruloni Ah, sorry, my bad.
One of the less known merits of daggers over shortswords is the ability to dual wield at range. The offhand attack rules only specify that you're attacking with light weapons in each hand, it says nothing aboot melee attacks, just melee weapons, which daggers are.
Edit: This is what I get for skimming the rules: It explicitly says you can throw them. PHB pg. 195.
Except if you take into account Item interactions. Which most people don't. In that case you'd be more of a 1 and a half wielder, because you can only draw one weapon per turn to attack with. If you already have one dagger in hand you can of course.
Edit: Shortsword + Dagger could be interesting too!
@@jelte3754 if you have the stats for it and can afford the feat, dual wielder fits perfectly on a twin dagger throwing rogue. Increasing AC and letting you draw 2 weapons. If you want to use 2 rapiers up close you can do that too. You can even start every combat with 2 daggers, throw or drop them, and draw 2 rapiers for up close.
@@jelte3754 If you're a Rogue, I would say dual wielding seems like more of a way to get sneak attack damage if you miss your first throw. Otherwise it might be worth taking other bonus actions.
Sorry this is long but Rules and I got in to considering this deeply to make your idea even better.
After spending little time I think I now understand the rules bit better. So Rogue Arcane Trickster uses component pouch to cast spells that require materials? So dual-wielding prevents you casting spells that have material cost like Hypnotic pattern and Fireball?
There fore we could multiclass 3 levels Sword collage of bard. lvl2 take one level bard and sleep. lvl 5 and 6 take the other levels bard so we don't push Find Familiar farther than lvl4
Rambling:
What benefits we gain from this:
-You also gain early game with 1 level neat Healing word, bonus action healing and can still attack.
-Song of rest with Fighter and Warlock is nice so they get their class resources back.
-Expertise to 2 skills is also neat making it 6 expertise total at lvl9
-Jack of trade will make it so you never have - in any ability check as they all gain +1 at least.
-I would insert 1 lvl at lvl2 and after you gain rogue subclass taking second level bard (lvl5 total) you gain second level spell slots
I still love your earlier spin on the Arcane Trickster: one level of Rogue and the rest in Illusionist
That's my preferred version too.
#FunFact: in 3.x, Treantmonk's favorite version of every martial class was some kind of caster (usually a Wizard sub-class such as Illusionist).
Those were the days of the Elfminister when CoDzilla stood astride the earth and the mere mortal martials cowered in its shadow, hiding in caves and going "unga. Unga unga bunga!..."
Of course, in that era the most optimized Arcane Trickser was a kobold who excelled in punning. They called him "Pun-Pun."
Treantmonk's Temple can you elaborate or show me where you talk about this? Start rogue 1 and then go wizard?
Jason Saunders go to his wizard builds section on his channel, and click on his illusionist example build. I think it is three videos long
Ritual Caster is amazing for an Arcane Trickster:
Comprehend Languages - You are a better scout if you can understand what enemies are saying.
Detect Magic - You are a better thief if you know what items are magical.
Find Familiar - You are a better spellcaster if you can regain the familiar your DM just killed without spending a spell slot and if you can choose one more wizard non-restricted school spell.
Illusory Script - You are a better infiltrator if you can fake that royal party invitation.
Leomund's Tiny Hut - You are a better spellcaster if you can sleep safely for 8 hours.
Water Breathing - You are a better thief if you can access that chamber filled with water.
Rary's Telepathic Bond - You are a better scout/infiltrator if you can speak if your party while scouting ahead/infiltrating the enemy camp.
On a side note, I recommend choosing sleight of hand as one of your expertises. This will improve your mage hand ledgerdemain.
Don't forget Identify, not only can you See magic, you can take the good bits before anyone else.
When would you recommend taking this feat though? Even as a v. Human, you want that DEX to hit 20, you probably want fighting initiate (archery style) first, right? This means you’re not hitting it until level 10. Level 12 if you’re not a vhuman.
@@krunchyfrogg
I understand why you are asking the question, but the first thing you have to decide is, are you going utility or damage?
Because you won't be able to get both. You want utility, then you take a huge hit to DPR but you can take ritual caster and have a lot of utility spells. You can't have it both ways.
@@ODDnanref I’d prefer utility, but unfortunately, your comparison is a bit off. Maximizing DEX does, of course, maximize your combat abilities, but there are also so many skills for the rogue that come off that DEX being higher. My point is that it isn’t a black and white question.
@@krunchyfrogg
My point is that taking fighting initiate is not necessary depending on the build you want.
It is pretty cut and dry if you know what build you want.
I’m only level4, but currently playing your 1 lvl Rogue, Illusionist the rest of the way. Enjoying it immensely. Love your vids, thank you sir!
Yes! I have been hoping for a new arcane trickster video for a long time period there are just not enough rogue videos out there. Thank you
AT is my favorite!
Merry Christmas! Keep on keeping on from New Zealand
Sleep seems like a mandatory pick at L3. You'll want to replace it in a couple levels but for now it is far above the rest.
Suggestion + Magical Ambush is powerful both in and out of combat. You should swap it in when you reach L9 if you don't already have it.
Hold Person is especially awkward on an AT because they will normally get two saving throws before you can attack with your melee weapon. Magical Ambush will not impose disadvantage on the second one.
Mirror Image is overrated. Who has time to cast it on the first round of combat? Mostly you are looking at the niche use where you can cast buff spells before combat. I can understand taking it eventually but at L7?
Shield is a better L8 choice than any second level spell. Most of your first level spell slots are going begging at this point. At this level spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter are usually a poor alternative to using your weapons.
Teleport spells like Misty Step, Thunder Step, and Dimension Door are always useful no matter what level you are. You should take one of them. As a rogue the extra mobility will help you in so many ways. By the time you learn spells like Slow and especially Banishment your full-caster party members will have much more effective ways of dealing with creatures that can't make saving throws.
Be wary of picking spells that compete with your wizard, sorcerer, or bard. Your low-level spells and limited slots cannot possibly keep up with them. Prefer spells like Disguise Self, Shield, Find Familiar, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, and others that make you a better rogue.
A Wand of Fireballs in the hands of an AT is game changing. The ranged AoE fills a giant gap in your capabilities and with Magical Ambush you will actually be exceptional at using it.
Very well stated and I agree 100%. The fact AT won't be able to compete with a full spellcaster and that they'll most likely have a lower spellcasting modifier makes me want to use spellcasting to enhance the rogue's skills rather than trying to emulate a wizard. Shield and Suggestion would replace a few spells mentioned here, but would still pick Mirror Image. Overall though I think this would be a great build !
Thanks for this! It was very helpful. Plus, it's always good to feed the algorithm.
My first character for a long-form campaign was a forest gnome arcane trickster. Absolute blast of a character to play. Reliable damage in combat, good utility outside of combat, great fun to roleplay, amazing all-round.
My current idea for an Arcane Trickster is going Tiefling lineage of Glasya and using the variant feral option for +3 dex ASI (yes, this is possible in the rules if the DM allows variant tieflings, you won't be able to do it AL because of the multiple book rule thought), so start with 18 dex and 14 int, get minor illusion for free, disguise self for free at lvl 3, and invisibility for free at lvl 5(2 levels earlier than you could normally as an AT), yes I know that these are just one time a day each, but you probably will not need to use them more than once each day and it gives you one cantrip and 2 top choice spells for AT for free and opens up more choices for you, so you can get Mage Hand, Booming Blade and Message as your cantrips and still have minor illusion, the only other thing I think I would probably say is certain is picking Shadow Blade and Mirror Image at lvl 7.
Mobility is very important for a rogue, I would always choose a spell to improve it. Both Levitate and Spider Climb are good choices, in fact playing through CoS, my arcane trickster's spider climb was key to reaching Strand through the walls, also it opens you in the exploration roles the rogue is usually expected to be lead. Once you got a magic items to help you in this, you could change for other combat focused spell.
Personally I'm a big fan of silent image on arcane tricksters.
Firstly it often works to your advantage for it to be silent, as you can make a copy of yourself cross enemy vision while being "sneaky". Or otherwise creating fake scenery that's more believable than minor image, like a bush swaying lightly in the wind while you stand behind the fake wall it's in front of.
Secondly, and what I often do, is use it as a fog cloud in practice. If you're DM is reasonable (and this is a reasonable thing) you can have it obscure just the same as fog cloud, but in a more controlled area. What it does even better, is let your allies see through it when the enemies can't. Some DMs might let you see through it without a check because the caster tells you it's an illusion. But if they don't and you have a turn or two waiting in ambush, they can try and beat it with assistance. Making enemies blind while you can see.
I think a really good backround for this class would be a custom one that’s mostly a criminal spy, but replaces a proficiency and equipment with cobbler’s tools and the skills to use them.
With find familiar and the forest gnome’s speak with small beasts you have a lot of ways to get info from the local wildlife so it’s a unique way to play as a spy. Being a cobbler gives you a great excuse to be hanging around places or comping out on the street near a place you want to watch.
The xanathars option for cobblers tools is also amazing fun. Making a secret compartment can hide secret documents, poisons, small stolen objects, and if your DM is generous maybe even a dagger.
I support more custom backgrounds. The RAW intended for custom backgrounds.
Thanks for all your videos mate. Have helped me alot. 👍
Been watching your arcane trickster videos and illusions cause me and my friends are doing a slightly homebrewed version of Rise of the Runelords (we're doing it with dnd5e skill checks and whatnot as that's what our dm is most familiar with, but we're allowed to use pathfinder classes and races) and I'm planning on building a Kitsune as an Arcane Trickster. Illusions and trickery are a major Kitsune thing, so it definitely seems like a fun match rp wise. These have been very helpful with trying to figure out what to expect with the class ^^
I'm two sessions deep into Out of the Abyss with a drow arcane trickster. We start our campaigns at level 3 (appropriately scaled) and having a once daily Faerie Fire as innate drow magic is a huge boon. Yes, it takes an action to cast it if needed, but being able to give yourself advantage for sneak attacks is awesome, assuming at least something fails a relatively low DC check. I usually get one failure in there.
There are some additional options I think are important to consider:
The High Elf is a really good alternative to Gnome that deserves special mention imho. Access to SCAG cantrips from level 1 and Elven Accuracy are valuable assets. I do like the advantage on saves from Gnome though, it is one of the weak points of Rogues.
The way I read the rules you can trade in a 1st level spell known to get both Shadow Blade and Mirror Image at level 7. I would highly recommend doing this, especially if you went with Elven Accuracy.
Speaking of first level spells, I think getting Shield at level 8 is preferable to something like Web. The other 1st level spells are kind of circumstantial and we have 4 slots to fill. Web on the other hand is fighting with Mirror Image and Shadow Blade for slots.
No need to trade out 1st level spell known at 7 because both Shadow Blade and Mirror image are on the Arcane Trickster's normal spell list.
@@bookablebard But you gain only one new spell, so if you want both Shadow Blade and Mirror Image right at level 7, you have to trade in another.
Interesting take on the AT rogue.
I built mine more like an allrounder.
High-Elf rogue with elven accuracy and longbow. It can dish out damage or control the field the spells, whatever is needed. Get bladelock or champion fighter for 19-to-crit if needed. Or you can go 2 lvl in sorcerer for the metamagic fun.
At 1st level, you should almost certainly be favoring ranged combat over melee combat!. You are way too squishy to stand on the front lines, and you don't have access to bonus action Disengage yet. Making the switch to melee at level 2 is far less risky in my humble opinion. At level 1, stay in the back ranks and use a short bow or light crossbow to plug away at enemies that are adjacent to your allies. Arcane Trickster Rogues are extremely versatile in that they can be just as effective at range as they are in melee. This allows them to alter their tactics depending on the types of opponents that they are facing.
I love arcane trickster! I'm playing one right now who is multiclassed with 5 levels of eloquence bard. Devastating combo, and so much fun to play
What made that work so well ?
This was a good video as usual, but I'm mostly excited at the mention of a DMing video next week.
7:00
That's the cool thing about rogues
The damage they do with attacks is not really based on the weapon damage die.
Wether you roll a D4 or a D8, you still roll your 5D6 sneak attack.
Rogues profit even more from light weapons to increase the chance of hitting at least once a turn with that bonus action attack
(if the first attack hit, they still have other options with cunning action).
Brilliant. Thanks for posting
Great stuff!
Great insights. Few comments suggestions. While forest gnome brings much to the table move of 25 gimps them a bit.
I would prefer going the same route described in the vid but use high elf with choice of cantrip and full 30 move.
With extra mobility thinking mobile at some point (10th or 12th) for maximum battlefield movement without having to burn bonus action as disengage.
I would like to see a video where you actually go through the calculations of how you measure the damage, say at lvl 20. I actually think you should do that for each class you make a video for.
If you are worried about AC and don't mind slotting in a 13 STR, you can pick up Barb 1 for the Unarmored AC and shield prof.
Arcane Trickster Forest Gnome! 😻
I was super curious which level 3 free slot you were going to go (Counterspell? Haste? Fireball?) And you totally surprised me in a great way! My party is almost entirely melee combatants, so Slow spell is the perfect choice. And it combos with Magical Ambush too.
I made a gnome AT (lv3) for a “one-shot” about a year ago that shook out virtually the same as this. Would definitely consider trotting him back out at some point when I’m itching to play a rogue.
Fantastic video as always. It seems iffy to me that characters who primarily depend on sight just know where an invisible opponent is automatically without having to make a perception check or anything. In any case blindsense should still be useful because a reasonable DM is probably going to allow you to use it to attack an invisible creature without disadvantage (and also avoid being attacked by them with advantage) which also means you might be able to get your sneak attack in.
The main argument for this is that otherwise this 14th level class feature is almost completely useless, as you pointed out, which can't possibly be the intent of the game developers.
I'm also a fan of not getting expertise in skills where you already have a good stat.
This is too funny!! I have a female forest gnome arcane trickster named Stabitha that I've been playing for about a year!
Does tunnel fighter work with sneak attack, virtually allowing you to make an extra sneak attack per enemy's turn that leaves your threatened area, and potentially they're all booming blades cuz warcaster, and they're all running away in the first place cuz we chose fallen aasimar and spent our turn 1 transforming for the fear effect?
I love taking Urchan for Forest gnome because the pet mouse is a pseudo familiar for sneaking.
Thanks for the video! Is it too much to hope for a profane soul video to complete the set? Excited for this one anyway!
Maybe someday, that is my favorite Blood Hunter subclass.
In your video you talk about using two weapons in case you missed with your sneak attack. If you use your bonus action to hide as you’re cunning action then you won’t be able to attack with your offhand
@Treantmonk: In your previous Arcane Trickster build guide, I believe you chose Color Spray at level 3 instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Would you care to explain the change of heart? I think Tasha's Hideous Laughter is quite good starting at level 9 once you get Magical Ambush, but it's far less reliable at level 3 relative to Sleep or Color Spray, neither of which allow a saving throw.
I've made a somewhat similiar build for an Arcane Trickster who is... kind of like Indiana Jones, but with magical kung fu. He "retrieves" enchanted items and other treasures for a university, but his personal quest is to recover lost knowledge of his ancestors' Bladesinger magic.
From 5th level onward, I would start taking up to 3 levels in Wizard and then Bladesinger, when the story progression maked it possible. That means to unlock his Wizard abilities, the character would need to obtain a spell book (he lost his before the start of the campaign), and to become a Bladesinger he would need to first find information on how to use Bladesong and then take some time to train himself in it.
This was meant to be be a thematic build, not a optimized damage dealer though. Outside the spell book, he learned mostly spells that help him locate valuables (or enemies), pinch them and then get away safely, because that's what he does and would naturally want to be as good as possible at.
Will you do a build with the Rogue Soulknife and do you think its utility is better than the Trickster?
Hi would consider doing an Aasimar’get over here’ build featuring flying combined with grasp of hadar to pull targets up, then let em fall? Thanks! 😇
Great analysis. But I'd like to point that Fog cloud is a god tier spell for rogue. Most importantly here is that you can hide each turn in a fog cloud or behind it, and it lasts up to an hour. Attack with booming blade, run and hide, since opportunity attacks don't work and you don't need to disengage. We've discussed with my DM that, if they are bumping into me, I stop being hidden. But anyway I am rarely being attacked, so I won't take Mirror image.
I've taken Variant human with Magic initiate to have Find familiar too. There is a problem with darkvision. So I'm keeping asking for Goggles of Night from my dm :) But it's fine to use Dancing lights or Light cantrips. Familiar can deliver Light 100 feet away from you (it's a touch spell).
Tasha's Mind Whip seems like a good replacement for silent image now that it's available to the wizard list.
for 8th level Darkness is nasty for an arcane trickster, you can cast it on a object and move that object with mage hand or a bat familiar and really interfere with casters/ranged attackers. Or for huge enemies you can move darkness over the head of the enemy while keeping it away from its body so party can still attack w/o penalty.
Why not use your second non illusion/ enchantment spell option at level 8 to drop silent image and pick up shield. The 2nd level illusion spells are really strong you could just pick up another one of them.
Or is web that strong of a spell?
Great video! What happens if you can't take SCAGtrips? Just use a shortbow? Or is melee still viable? Do you have to wait until Shadowblade for it to be good?
Dip a few levels into Warlock. When you choose the blade path you get access to a smite spell. That way you can boost your damage output with magic without those killer cantrips. Plus you get a few more spells and some other kickass goodies.
How much do you think the Piercer feat would up the damage? Enough to consider taking the half feat?
I think Forest Gnome is a great pick for this, wow
While I love mirror imagine, I do have issues about when to cast it. Ideally you would do it just before initiative starts. However not all DMs really allow that. So then it is a choice between mirror image and a sneak attack, which is a hard one imho. In what situation if you are already in initiative would you use it?
I think the value was of spells is very dependant on your table. My DM doesn’t allow the familiar abuse to just grant advantage all the time. He also doesn’t think that running behind something and “hiding” and then leaning out and making an attack from the same place the enemy just saw you go is enough to grant advantage. In that game, I am an AT rogue with a wizard and ranger in the party, and that’s it. What that means is that on the first round of combat, it is actually very difficulty for me to get sneak attack. None of the enemies are engaged with my wizard or ranger yet who are hanging back, I can’t just use my familiar or hide as discussed above, so casting mirror image on the first round of combat is actually a great use of my action usually. Or, what if you’re poisoned or something else is causing you to have disadvantage on your attacks? I realise with “buff” spells there is this tendency to think we have to get them up as soon as possible or they’re useless. I disagree with that. Basically I think mirror image is a great choice because it is not super uncommon that I have no way of getting sneak attack, and when that happens, casting mirror image is a great use of my action. If you feel like at your table to are able to get sneak attack 100% of the time, then it could very well be possible that mirror image is not a great choice.
I should also mention that, in that campaign I mentioned, we originally had in addition to the three of us a fighter and a barbarian. The players had to stop playing because of reasons so the characters were written out. The result was that, as a melee focused AT, I was the only “front-liner” in the group, so shoring up my defences was essential. Mirror image helps with that.
What do you think about going High Elf for Booming Blade at level 1 and elven accuracy at level 4?
That's a strong way to go.
How does just standing next to an enemy who walks away and triggers opportunity attack trigger sneak attack? It's not advantage and in your first example there where no friendly characters next too it? Or can you consider the mirror images friendlies who threaten it?
Much better than last weeks. This is the sort of character where I would expect to be able to get secondary damage on Booming Blade as you have ways to move out of combat.
I'd love if you put damage calcs in the description or on discord or on Twitter, even if you do it on paper and then take a picture.
I imagine most of twitter won't be interested, I can do it on Discord if you like
Sadly I play at a table limited to PHB only and I don’t have access to booming blade. Would it be worth the MAD (reducing INT and WIS) to take a one level dip in Warlock for Hex?
A one level Hexblade dip works on just about anything.
2:35 The only "Optimal" races for anyone who expects to be stealthy have darkvision. How's the human going to sneak while they're carrying a torch?
I recommend checking out treantmonk's feat variant document. There's an option for effectively gaining darkvision with any race.
Not that it's always an option, but the Dancing Lights cantrip is a great work around. You can position the lights far enough from you that you are in darkness, but can see the area immediately ahead of you. Combined with a decent stealth bonus, this can overcome the lack of darkvision just fine.
@@aethon0563 i love that document. Had to make some small changes but it is amazing.
No no no... you don't carry a torch! You use your action to see through the senses of your owl familiar riding your head.
@@ChristnThms If the enemy sees *Dancing Lights* they'll know an enemy is around. They may not know where you are, but now they're looking for you.
cool ty!
31:00 Treantmonk still throwing shade on monks, lol.
I find it interesting that you don't switch out a spell at level 7 so you can get 2 second level spells. Are there really no second level spells that are better than silent image / disguise self / Tasha's once you hit level 7? Earlier shadowblade, invis, hold person for tashas, etc? Same with level 13, is there no 3rd level spell that is better than one you already know?
Consider slots too - you can't cast a 2nd level spell with a 1st level slot, and you don't have many 2nd level slots to cast.
I built my arcane trickster pretty differently. Started with a level in Fighter for armour, whip proficiency and Blind Fighting. Then 4 levels in Rogue. Picked Fog Cloud instead of Find Familiar as my first non-enchantment spell, Sentinel as my first feat to keep my poor foe in the smoke. Two more levels in Fighter for Action Surge so I can Fog Cloud and attack in the same turn, and Battlemaster for Riposte and Precise maneuvers. Then Arcane Trickster at least until you get that disadvantage to saves.
Smoke bomb warrior! Cast your smoke so it touches only you and not your enemy so not to mess up your friendly casters, attack with advantage from blind fighting, hide as a bonus action.
If your enemy attacks your friend, you react with Sentinel. If you forgot to hide or had to dash and they attack you, they do so with disadvantage and you react with Riposte. If they try to move away, you let them go 5ft for Booming Blade extra damage, and react with your whip range to Sentinel block them at a distance where they can't hit you.
Super fun build
Just out of curiosity what would be the biggest difference between AT build and Wizard Ulitmate Trickster build?
What they do in combat. The Wizard Trickster is a spellcaster first and foremost.
Why not use bow and be more defensive/scout ambush type?
Can you do a celestial warlock build?
What would you change with Tasha's?
Treantmonk why can't a web spell cast at range and when hidden benefit from magical ambush? Sounds like it can to me.
Because the Saving Throws are not made when you cast the spell "targeting" a creature, they are made when the creature starts it's turn or enters the web for the first time on their turn, so it's kinda like, you don't cast the spell on the creature, you create the spell, if the creature happens to enter the area latter on, it makes a saving throw.
I’m currently playing a level 6 Arcane Trickster we are on the same page for the most part with spell selection; I’ve acquired a Rapier sword of wounding, a plus 2 long bow and bracers of archery.
Two questions: is shadowblade still necessary in this scenario, and should I consider optimizing my range game?
Shadow blade isn't necessary regardless
Treantmonk's Temple sweet, that makes life easier.
What about phantasmal force, isn’t the intelligence save more appealing for Rogues that have a decent spell save?
Shadow blade is cool and all, but I prefer Suggestion. I once hid in combat, cast suggestion on a strong paladin, and made him spend the next 8 hours digging his own grave as he watched his companions dropping like flies all around him.
Caleb Smith you are a sick man, turns out my character race is a yuan-ti and I can cast suggestion once every 24 hours.
Add two levels of Bladesinger and win big.
Also, just 2 levels of Illusionist Wiz give it the Beguiler feel.
I've got an Arcane Trickster I've gotten to play in one game, and hoping to play again soon. High Elf, with a two level dip of Bladesinging Wizard
That's a nice combo, really boosts maneuverability and defense. Hurts offense a bit, but I think it's a good trade.
@@TreantmonksTemple Is that second level of wizard really worth slowing your rogue progression again? That hurts a lot more than just your offense as your many cool rogue/AT features and spells come late.
Bladesinging sounds nice but it isn't a great fit. The extra proficiencies are almost worthless on a typical AT build. Bladesinging conflicts with Cunning Action during the first round of combat and prevents you from using your bow. You are not smart enough to get the big AC and concentration save bonuses a wizard gets.
Overall seems meh. Cool flavor but most of the value of a wizard multiclass comes at L1.
Once you reach very high levels the final rogue features are less good so you could consider adding wizard levels at the end.
I currently have a L2 rogue character I was going to dip into some Sorcerer levels to try it out. It is an experiment... Any advice?
Well, shield spell is the first thing that comes to mind. If you don't have darkvision already, shadow makes sense, otherwise I would consider divine soul.
If you go arcane trickster, I'd recommend going Wizard. That way you will be able to choose any spells you want going forward, not just illusion and enchantment. Plus a second level in wizard allows you to take the blade singer subclass, which has some truly excellent perks provided by the bladesong like increased movement speed, AC boosts and so on. Also you can cast ritual spells, get a spellbook which you can copy spells into, and access to arcane recovery.
I like what you have done. But from the perspective of someone has played this before i want to point out that in standard array or point buy stat calculations your intelligence is not super high so your spell dc suffers and your spell progression takes forever. So don't count on getting all these spells mentioned, especially when the average campaign doesn't get past 12th level. Also several feats were discussed but remember unless you play human variant you get 1 at 4th level and 1 at 8th level and then you get around level 12 and the campaign usually crumbles. I hope yours doesn't - but it happens.
Random would a Taxabi would be good for a arcane trickster ?
I'll never understand WHY wizards took a away the rogue aspect of the bard and taking away the shadowdancer. Blows my mind.
What do you think of the Soulknife? Is Arcane Trickster better or are they comparable?
Let's wait until the official version comes out. Comparing UA to official material is often an exercise in futility.
@@TreantmonksTemple Fair enough!
I plan to make Kobold variant noble Knight to justify the reason why 4 Kobolds would join the party. Either one of the player is Noble or some Noble gave them to assist them saying "You can use them as you see fit, they will be loyal to you as long you treat them with respect"
I would consider at levels 2 to 4 taking 3 levels Bard on Lore, Sword or Whisper based on if party needs healing.
-Healing word is useful. Bonus action so you can still attack while healing
-Song of rest raises the healing 1d6. If party has fighter, warlock, druid or monk they could spend their resources take some dmg and then your party takes short rest to heal and gain thous back.
-Sleep is super effective spell, using it to knock something like 1 to 3 orcs based on lukcy (13hp, average of 20 so 1 orc should always sleep) or 2 to 5 Kobolds with hp 7...
-You also gain 2 more expertise this way
-3 levels still let you take 17th level sub class feature, for me it would be arcane trickster's as I value Find familiar so much
Kobold
-The "Direct Sunlight" is up to DM and best case scenario you must see the sun for it to count. Fighting under a tree or in streets should leave you in shadows so this is not a problem.
-Pack Tactics means you always attack with advantage and Find Familiar being next to you or on your solder will allow you to use sneak attack and pack tactics even if the familiar did nothing. This means you can help action other people like Sorcerer using Firebolt . . .
-Grovel, Cower, and Beg gives everyone advantage so using this is neat. Downside is you must stay 10ft away from enemies. But lvl 20 wood elf fighter attacking 9 times rolling 3d20 each time can be useful :3
Taking bard is useful if you don't have healer like Paladin, Cleric, Bard, Druid or some absurd healing sorcerer . . . . Even Ranger or Artificer can take cure wound, then again healing word is better.
The bonuses you gain is good spell casting, healing and a more proficiencies and few expertise on top of everything
Negative is you need good Charisma, but it is not something you should worry if you use more utility like Slow fall, Invisibility, Identify, sleep, detect magic or even Unseen Servant.
Whisper gives you 2d6 extra dmg like Smith
Lore gives you 3 more Proficiencies. With background's 2, Rogue's 4, Bard's 1 extra and Lore 3 you would get 10 proficiencies 6 which are expertise and you add half your proficiency in all skills you are not proficiencies with.
Sword two-weapon fighting.
This ofc asks from DM "can I play Monster race and multiclass?" that can be no :D Explain how you would play more utility rogue. In case feats are ok give alternative Mobile feat Wood Elf at lvl4, you can dash bonus action and move 90ft to hit an enemy and back off again to 35ft away so enemies can't melee you :^) Just to remind.
Not taking 3 levels instant rogue skips Find Familiar for 3 levels while you level bard. You might take 1 level for healing word :3 but as I said, if your party wants/demands healer you can say "I will do if I'm still allowed to play rogue/bard multiclass. you take 1lvl rogue 1lvl bard :D it even does not matter which class you start. Charisma or Intelligence saving throw~ Other than that you get about the same either way maybe losing starting thief's tools :^) 25 gold.... but when you take lvl in rogue you gain thief's tools proficiency as multiclassing.
TL;DR: You can multiclass 3 levels bard for healing, expertise, spellcasting and general utility. Kobolds also make good race for Rogue and Noble variant Knight is great excuse why the Kobolds join the party. Sleep is useful early game CC. Taking bard gives you more spell options while not limiting spell slots in the long run, just Find Familiar is not one of Bard's spells is the downside.
Edit: Too bad that taking 2 levels bard and 4 levels rogue does not grant you access to shadow blade even though we would have lvl2 spell slots :3
i always preferred having a higher CON and like a 12 INT and just taking mobility spells like longstrider, levitate, or fly. but that's just me i suppose. i just leave the control stuff to the full casters
Would a monk magic initiate booming blade, familiar help action (or hex if you choose warlock), bonus action martial arts stay above the baseline?
You would get to proc hex damage on all your flurry of blows if you hit, so that would be a big damage increase.
It would help a lot at low levels, but the gap between Monk and the baseline is too large at higher levels for hex to bridge the gap.
Hex creates a few issues on a monk.
The first is that it takes your bonus action to cast or to move, so any time you need to change targets you're losing out o 1-2 attacks. If you're fighting a single big enemy it moves your damage up, but if enemies are dropping too fast you'll actually lose damage from not attacking as often.
The second issue is your concentration. As a front line combatant without a great CON or a great AC, you're likely to lose concentration pretty quickly. This gets better at very high levels once your AC and CON saves are both better, but for most of the character's lifespan you can't really expect to keep your concentration for more than a couple rounds unless you are using stuff like Patient Defense or Step of the Wind, which would again cut into your damage more than what you gain from having Hex active.
As for Booming Blade, using it stops you from using your martial arts BA attack because you didn't take the attack action. It may increase your damage slightly on turns where you wanted to use Flurry of Blows instead, but but given that you are a pretty soft target that is now stuck next to them I wouldn't expect enemies to trigger the secondary damage by moving very often.
Finally, while Find familiar is definitely a small boost to the monk's damage output, a monk that is trying to fill a striker role does their damage very spread out across 3-4 attacks every round, with no single attack doing a lot of damage alone. Getting advantage on one attack is better than nothing, but impacts their damage output a lot less than it does most other martial characters.
@@shanebernier2483 Thank you. Lets hope tashas cauldron has some good monk options. Does booming blade lessen the difference in damage with the baseline at higher levels?, since it does scale, i would think so but i have not calculated it.
@@TreantmonksTempledo you think low lvl campaigns are viable for monks if you play this way and still contribute as a front line combatent?
Oh finally its here
You didn't mention the Sentinel/Mirror Image synergy. You can attack as a reaction when an enemy hits the Mirror Image. What I haven't wondered about up until now is whether the Mirror Image counts as an "another enemy of the target that is within 5 feet of it and that enemy isn't incapacitated," for the purpose of Sneak Attack. I assume it isn't.
I think taking Sentinel on a rogue is still pretty risky anyway. Unless you have some really obvious squishies that must be better targets than you.
I mentioned it in my Arcane Trickster spell vid.
@@TreantmonksTemple oh that's right!
I do think Sentinel could be a nice high level feat along with Mirror Image, but I think I will prefer taking Dexterity or Resilient Con first.
22:26 Why would you get a sneak attack when the enemy disengages? In that scenario the spellcaster is not threatened by anyone else, nor do you get advantage. What am I missing?
Because Sentinel grants you an opportunity attack even if the opponent disengages.
@@horstmeier2664 But in order to get another SA the conditions must still be met, right? You would still need advantage or someone/something else threatening the target. Getting an OA should not be enough for another SA, correct?
If I were a musician. I'd play the bass-line. Bah dum pah!
How many players skim the Gnome part about advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha saves against magic...?
That's incredibly powerful
why sloe not haste for second sneak atk
I remember in your rogue variant video you talked about how poisons aren't very good because they're way too expensive, don't do much damage for their cost and are really a pain to make thanks to the terrible crafting system. Could you make or recommend a system that fixes these problems? I've tried to do it myself and looked at a couple of replacement crafting systems that others have made, but they are never quite right.
Why do you think con is better for resilience than wisdom? Just for concentration?
Edit; forgot about Slippery Mind
Another video by Chris? Sign me up!
Isnt resilient withouth having an odd con mod a bit a waste? On the other hand walking around with a 13 con the wole time until 10 is also bad.
We're talking about +4 to an important save at the time we take it. The +1 ability score boost isn't relevant to the decision.
Treantmonk's Temple i think i found the solition. First resilient con and then shield training from ua and i guess tashas. Then you get the +1 con and +2 ac from a shield? Of course only if it made it in tashas like this. Variant human start with fey touched and int 15 then practical adept, then resilient and shield mastery :) for a wizard.
How viable would it be for an arcane trickster to take silent image instead of hideous laughter?
I just watched the Monk video.
And had just commented that I always thought the baseline was wayy too low. The AT rogue rlly confirms that ^^
@@sharkforce8147 :) thanks^^ yea i am aware what its meant for - i just thought we would never see anything below that line till i watched the monk video :D
@@sharkforce8147 haha yes very true.
You have any builds in mid that he made where you think they were mediocre?
was literally just thinking of playing an arcane trickster in a solo campaign. what are the odds?
0.125689%
I have heard that exact discussion around both rogues and bards and it never made sense to me.
@@Rodrik18 yeah when I first played 5e, late 2017 right after Xanathars released, the group I played with primarily argued that rogues and bards were bad at combat and exploration (I don't agree) because they were skill based or dungeon survival based classes. It seemed really silly because I was using a swashbuckler rouge 7/ college of swords bard 7 and consistantly out damaging the champion fighter and hex blade.
Tired of always using an owl familiar? By RAW, here is how you can use any type of familiar to grant you Advantage on your Booming Blade attack every round without incurring opportunity attacks or leaving your familiar adjacent to the target. For purposes of illustration, I will assume that you are using a weasel:
- Since the weasel is a Tiny creature, it can treat your rogue as an independent mount, riding on the rogue's shoulder.
- On each of its turns, the weasel Readies an Action to use the Help Action in order to grant the rogue advantage on his next attack. The readied action is set to trigger as soon as the weasel comes within 5 feet of the rogue's target.
- The rogue darts in with his rapier, gains advantage on his Booming Blade attack due to the weasel's Help Action, does Sneak Attack damage as well because of advantage and the fact that the weasel counts as an adjacent ally, uses a bonus action to Disengage, and then darts back out of range again, taking the weasel with him.
- The rules for mounted combat state that "if the mount provokes an opportunity attack while you're on it, the attacker can target you or the mount." Also by RAW, "you don't provoke an opportunity attack when ... someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction". In this case, the rogue is the weasel's mount and he is moving the weasel without using its movement, action, or reaction. The rogue does not provoke an opportunity attack for moving away thanks to the Disengage action, therefore neither does the weasel on his shoulder. This ruling is confirmed by the following Jeremy Crawford tweet: twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/604494644559216640?s=20
Using this approach, you are able to achieve the same benefits as the owl's Flyby ability, though it only works for melee combat. If you plan to make ranged attacks as well, you can use Steady Aim or bonus action Hide in order to gain Advantage reliably. Cheers!
What about 2 levels in ranger. Get zephyr strike.
First!
After watching, thanks for these videos man :)
As usual, I really enjoy your work. Love your rational take on character creation. Keep it up!
wait, a Warlock does 35 for 4d10+4d6+20? I think you left off the +20.
It assumes a hit-chance of 60%(caused by bounded accuracy)
What about a build of bladesinger/arcane trickster with shadowblade and booming blade with high ac
Bladesinger 2 would meld nicely and boost that defense as well. Lower sneak damage tho
@@TreantmonksTemple love if you could see a build I made with a friend 7 rogue 13 Wizard bladesinger/trickster with high Ac thanks to shield and uncanny dodge + absorb elements low level then changes into evation, i belive i would make a fun build to test out
@@TreantmonksTemple by one d6 only though. To me, the benefits outway the loss, especially when mitigated by the addition of booming blade. Plus I think since you are a wizard, you can take any spells you want, not just illusion and enchantment. If not, you can still copy scrolls of whatever you have levels for into your book.
Speaking of Arcane Trickster, I'd love if you went over my personal favorite build, Arcane Trickster 11 Lore Bard 9! Very reliable skill monkey with great DPR, good control/utility, and with no need to raise INT you stay a lot less MAD.
I would've gone with Feral Tiefling, and also gotten access to wings.
I know point buy is used to give an example of hierarchy of abilities but... never point buy. Always roll. If you DM ain't a dick he'll let you roll multiple sets and you can pick the one best suited for your class. Having 1 negative modifier is "fine" i guess, for most people. But having 2 is just suicide. This characters aren't common folk, they are adventurers, they are supposed to be better than common folk and that's why they go on missions. I'll never buy into "negative scores are awesome for roleplay" if you need stats for actual roleplay you are doing it wrong. You can play a +5 INT wizard that's just plain dumb for anything that's not magic.
My favorite rolled-stat method is munchkin. Roll 24 dice, take out the lower 6 (you keep 18) and combine the rest in groups of 3 to determine your stats. That way you can almost always guarantee a 18 for your main stat, 20 with racial bonus.
Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe is my preferred lawfirm.
Soitenly! Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!
one big misconception about Invisibility.
Invisibility does NOT enhance your stealth. it doesn't give you an advantage (unless the DM judges it to be appropriate) and doesn't give you +10.
Invisibility allows you to use stealth where normally you couldn't. Do you want to enter the courthouse without being noticed? sure, you need to enter by the main door and there is 4 guards guarding it. and nothing offering heavy obscurement or blocking line of sight. you got 2 options left, go around town, really a crowd who will storm the courthouse and you can hide within the crowd, or you can cast invisibility
Invisibility is not mandatory sure, but it does allow you to you what you are good at more often